Fri 21 Dec 2007
This is the time and place to post observations about your local areas, comments on news stories or the New Jersey housing market, open house reports, etc. If you have any questions you wanted to ask earlier in the week but never posted them up, let’s have them. Also a good place to post suggestions, requests for information, criticism, and praise.
For readers that have never commented, there is a link at the top of each message that is typically labelled “[#] Comments“. Go ahead and give that a click, you might be missing out on a world of information you didn’t know about. While you are there, introduce yourselves to everyone.
For new readers that have only read the messages displayed on the main page, take a look through the archives, a substantial amount of information has been put online in the past year. The archives can be accessed by using the links found in the menus on the right hand side of the page.
December 21st, 2007 at 6:17 am
Good morning everyone!
December 21st, 2007 at 6:28 am
From the NY Times:
Solving the Mortgage Crisis May Require a Guardian Angel
I knew it was the Christmas season. There on television was Henry F. Potter, the mean banker, quizzing Pa Bailey, the idealist from the building and loan society.
“Have you put any real pressure on these people of yours to pay those mortgages?”
“Times are bad, Mr. Potter. A lot of these people are out of work.”
“Then foreclose!”
“I can’t do that. These families have children.”
“They’re not my children.”
I’ve always loved “It’s a Wonderful Life,” with its happy ending that renews our faith in humanity. There is a reason it blankets the airwaves every December.
I would have liked to watch the entire movie again but duty called. I needed to study the latest government effort to deal with the subprime mortgage crisis. To great fanfare, the Federal Reserve proposed rules this week to keep bankers from doing mean and stupid things.
December 21st, 2007 at 6:33 am
And now, for something completely different.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a4BeyrQVUQ30&refer=home
December 21st, 2007 at 6:34 am
From MarketWatch:
Popular Inc. sees quarterly loss, to take impairment charge
Puerto Rico-based banking group Popular Inc. said Friday that it expects to report a fourth-quarter pretax loss of $90 million to $165 million following the recharacterization of a number of prior mortgage loan securitizations as sales. The company said the move will reduce its $3.1 billion subprime mortgage portfolio by around $2.4 billion. The firm also said it would take an impairment charge of up to $175 million on the goodwill and trademark value of its E-Loan business.
December 21st, 2007 at 6:37 am
http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSPAB00369620071221
“The effects that we can measure, notably at the IMF, are significant. Growth will be weaker. It will not necessarily be catastrophic, it will continue to exist.”
December 21st, 2007 at 6:41 am
Words of the month:
Unwinding
Infusion
Layoff
Bonus
Do not be alarmed at the confusing array.
If we formulate a sentence, we better understand the current economic reality:
One bonus of a layoff is the possibility of unwinding on a southern beach with an infusion of rum.
December 21st, 2007 at 6:46 am
peace (from #291 yesterday)-
Public schools cannot be improved. Unions and tenure have sealed their fate- and have guaranteed mediocrity- forever. Being lazy pays. And don’t even get me started on the administrators and other peripheral toadies.
On the bright side, though, we now offer public education that’s helping us fill the jobs of the future. Want fries with that?
The lack of incentive/punishment doesn’t work in business; why should it work in education?
December 21st, 2007 at 6:51 am
‘“She cries about that bike every night, and she wants me to buy her another one, but I can’t afford it right now because I have my own financial problems,” says Savannah’s grandmother, Anne Marie Wynter, whose home is also in foreclosure.’
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601170&refer=home&sid=avuHjSdAT8Ik
—
Great, thanks, J.B. Now you have me scanning for subprime and kids. Right before Christmas, I’m reading about 6-year-old kids crying for their Dora bikes.
I’d almost rather be reading about shades of skin, 700k condos and crappy schools.
Go chunky.
December 21st, 2007 at 7:10 am
“..Where will the money come from…
“It could be a refinance corporation, like the one coming out of the Depression. We had the Resolution Trust Corp. for the savings and loan debacle….”
http://tinyurl.com/33q6ad
Pat says, “How about letting people rent and telling them to stop spending money for five years before they buy?”
December 21st, 2007 at 7:19 am
From the APP:
http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071220/BUSINESS/712200423/1003
But those officials said they are keeping a close eye on the faltering housing market and the impact on jobs connected to it, such as mortgage brokers and home-improvement retailers.
One example: The number of people with real-estate licenses in New Jersey declined to 101,992 in 2007 from 105,222 in 2006, or 3 percent, according to the state Department of Banking and Insurance.
“To this point, (the fallout) has been relatively modest,” Labor Commissioner David J. Socolow said. “We’re watching very closely to see what the impact is on employment.”
Lockwood said the decline in the housing market might seem worse than it actually is because it has fallen from record heights. She said she knows real estate is cyclical and the good times don’t last forever, but the cutbacks have come as a shock.
“We kind of never anticipate it’s going to go anywhere other than stay up,” Lockwood said.
December 21st, 2007 at 7:21 am
Interesting little note up at the NJMLS..
Words from Tina Griffin, Executive Director
The media would have us all believe that our professional world of Real Estate is doomed. We need better press because most of us know better. Those of you who have been around the business awhile have already been on this roller coaster ride. Those of you who are new to the industry, welcome to reality.
December 21st, 2007 at 7:26 am
Re: public schools
I am seeing right now the effects of tenure on my child’s education. Both of his teachers are horrible. Complaints go no where and these particular teachers will take it out on the children if they find out whose parent complained. I had offered to put my son in the Catholic school, because I knew what was coming this year, but he didn’t want to leave his friends. Our middle school is much better and that’s where he will be next year. My daughter is going to private high school. When looking at the public high school, it is good but I’m looking for more. I have a child who will fly below the radar but that’s not what I want for her. The private school wants the children to succeed (looks really good when recruiting that every graduate goes to a 4 year college and that there are millions in scholarships received by graduates) while I really feel that our public high school doesn’t really care if the children succeed. There are always going to be those high achievers but that’s not a reflection on the school itself but on the children.
December 21st, 2007 at 7:45 am
“Words of the month:”
Pat [6],
On the top of my list;
Balanced.
December 21st, 2007 at 7:49 am
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/21/realestate/21condo.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
New York Condos Lure Deal-Seeking Europeans
By CHRISTINE HAUGHNEY
Published: December 21, 2007
The sidewalks of Manhattan are crammed this month with European tourists on shopping sprees, picking up gifts that cost far less in the United States than they do at home because of the weak dollar. But they are not just crowding into boutiques and department stores. Some are also shopping for condominiums.
“There’s bargains to be had,” said Kerry Miller, a public relations executive who with her husband, Marty, a disc jockey, was working through her Christmas gift list by buying sweaters at Abercrombie & Fitch and makeup at MAC, as well as touring 32 apartments. The Millers, from Malahide, Ireland, a suburb of Dublin, searched for a one-bedroom condo. They made an offer for $700,000 on one apartment in the meatpacking district and are waiting to hear back from the seller.
While natives remain wary about real estate and worry about bonuses and the economic climate, foreign tourists are keeping brokers busy with their eagerness to buy up Manhattan apartments, which many see as investments.
“The exchange rate is like a gift from God for Europeans,” said Danielle Grossenbacher, the broker for Coldwell Banker Hunt Kennedy who showed the Millers around. “Everybody is feeling they have an opportunity to purchase a piece of Manhattan.”
These buyers are transforming a traditionally slow month for Manhattan real estate brokers at a time when brokers nationwide are struggling to sell homes. This year, Manhattan brokers are waking before dawn to talk by phone with European buyers about amenities and closing costs and working late advising foreign buyers in town on the best places to shop for gadgets and clothes.
The number of foreign buyers has doubled in the last two years, according to data from the research firm Radar Logic. In just the last 18 months, they have bought one-third of all new condos that were up for sale, said Jonathan J. Miller, an executive vice president at Radar Logic and its director of research.
“We’d have had difficulty absorbing the elevated level of new development coming on the market without foreign buyers,” Mr. Miller said. “They are a key source of demand for new development.”
December 21st, 2007 at 7:53 am
X-Mas gift for taxpayers;
“Fitch Places 173,022 MBIA-Insured Issues on Rating Watch Negative”
December 20, 2007 05:09 PM Eastern Time
NEW YORK–(BUSINESS WIRE)–Concurrent with its related rating announcement earlier today on MBIA Inc. (MBIA) and its financial guaranty subsidiaries, Fitch Ratings has placed 173,022 bond issues (172,860 municipal, 162 non-municipal) insured by MBIA on Rating Watch Negative.
Fitch placed MBIA’s ‘AA’ long-term rating and ‘AAA’ insurer financial strength (IFS) rating on Rating Watch Negative following the rating agency’s updated assessment into MBIA’s current exposure to SF CDOs backed by subprime mortgage collateral and various CDO-squared transactions, as well as MBIA’s exposure to RMBS.
December 21st, 2007 at 7:56 am
Willow (12)-
We are training the sheeple of the future. Frankly, I believe the status quo is perpetuated by acquiescence at the highest levels of government. It benefits both parties to have a populace that is easily-manipulated and prone to voting for bread and circuses. It’s the perfect fit for a system rigged toward easy re-election of incumbent officeholders and constant growth of bureaucracy. All those desks need to be filled with fat, compliant, TV-sedated drones. Once you’ve reached the tipping point of having enough gubmint employees who will vote for themselves and their own jobs, election results become a foregone conclusion.
Fat, compliant, TV-sedated drones tend to shop a lot, too. Go to the mall, buy a bunch of stuff, then cram 3,500 calories down your gullet at the food court. Go home, watch Oprah, drink a gallon of Pepsi, take a nap and order in Domino’s for dinner. Great for our new “service” economy.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:04 am
Clot #16
That has been my frustration - the attitude that nothing can be done about the situation so why even bother. So many parents just accept the status quo rather than demanding more. I have tried various times to change things in our elementary school but mediocrity is the standard and they are not going to change at this point. I have given up on the elementary school and barely ever show my face there. As I said, the middle school is very good thanks to many dedicated teachers and an administration that doesn’t tolerate mediocrity.
If the parents would just realize that the teachers and administrators work for them and then demand better “customer service,” then there might be some hope but the “sheeple” don’t even realize their not getting their money’s worth.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:22 am
#16 Clot - I agree, especially about the tipping point, but can it last? Where will the money come from for the 3500 calorie snacks to sedate the masses? Higher taxes? Even that won’t last - intelligent productive people will look out for their own self-interest (as they should) and opt out. (and I haven’t read “Atlas Shrugged” in years)
December 21st, 2007 at 8:25 am
From Reuters:
probing three dozen securitization cases: report
U.S. regulators, led by the Securities and Exchange Commission, are probing how financial firms priced mortgage securities on their books and whether they should have told investors earlier about the declining value of those securities, The Wall Street Journal reported on Friday.
…
The SEC has set up a working group to tackle some three dozen probes, which are in their early stages, the article said.
Regulators are also looking at whether the Wall Street firms put higher values on their own securities than on the ones they assigned to customers’ holdings, the Journal reported.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:31 am
From Bloomberg:
A Complete Subprime User’s Guide, 2007 Edition: Caroline Baum
Anyone looking to reflect on the high points of the year in business and finance can pretty much do it in one, maybe two, words: subprime mess.
How the non-payment of mortgage interest by a homeowner in Ft. Myers, Florida — and others like him — morphed into an international credit crisis, heaping such huge losses on Wall Street that its biggest banks had to look overseas for a capital infusion, is a story that will be told for years to come. Maybe Wall Street memories will be longer than the crisis this time around.
For those who may have missed the subprime press coverage or been too intimidated by the acronyms to dive in, herewith is a user’s guide to the subprime year of 2007
(snip)
December 21st, 2007 at 8:32 am
Willow (17)-
The parents are that way because they’ve already been co-opted by the thought police. The system of gubmint mind control is now entrenched across multiple generations.
However, I’d take a bit of issue with your assertion that a demand for better “customer service” might be effective. A real education is not a consumer experience. It’s an ongoing dialogue that’s based on a mutual and public acceptance of what represents the “highest and best” across a scope of academic disciplines. Once there’s consensus upon what the “Great Books” are, the process becomes a self-sustaining and self-policing one. Amazing what can happen when there’s a shared culture, shared values and shared effort. Questions of competence and discipline are easy to resolve when viewed in light of the prevailing standards. The problem today is, there are no standards. We’ve abandoned the hard work of identifying and defending an ideal in favor of promotion of false self-esteem and multiculturalism without context.
Unfortunately, the pursuit of such disconnected and ill-conceived short-term goals has led to the spread of consumerism in education. When the agenda of education aims so low and holds itself to such a low and transient standard, public dissatisfaction is bound to take hold. Someone’s little angel inevitably doesn’t feel special enough…or, his ethnicity is not sufficiently validated. The natural and inevitable reaction is public complaint. However, it’s not a complaint that comes across as a demand for standards to be upheld; rather, it’s the demand for MORE: more time, more recognition, more service. And, in far too many instances, schools attempt to appease the peanut gallery, which further debases the quality of whatever “education” is still available within public schools.
As long as schools are about the appeasement of the individual- rather than the development of the individual through communication of shared values and culture- we’re doomed.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:33 am
I agree, especially about the tipping point, but can it last?
It’ll last until the empire crumbles.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:35 am
Out (18)-
I read Ayn Rand at far too young an age. That’s why I think (among many other reasons) that my brain is so f(*&ed up.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:38 am
Clot,
I’m faced with a dilemma. It’s too soon to buy RE but for various other reasons it may be justified.
As we are well aware, incentives are rampant; free car, closing costs, vacations, etc… I am looking fo a house, where the owner is offering a free silo as an incentive. Unfortunately, I can not locate this in Bergen. Please keep your eyes ope, let me know.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:38 am
But Willow I thought according to everyone on this site public school teachers at the best!!
A few weeks ago I saw a 4th boy grade boy getting pummeled right when school ended by two 5th grade boys who were waiting for him, teacher comes out and says you have to do this off school property so they drag the kid to the lawn across the street and continue to pummel and the teacher goes back in. Don’t worry I broke it up. But it is just my daily example how for most teachers it is just a job.
My other favorite school policy is you can’t request teachers, otherwise as the principal puts it none of the bad teachers would have any students and that would be unfair to them.
Don’t get me wrong there are some good teachers and I know they are equally frustrated by the school protection of bad teachers and how the union tries to block rewarding the better teachers.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:38 am
Maybe I’ll read Atlas and the Greenspan autobiography back to back over the long weekend.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:39 am
Wall Street Bonuses Surge 14%
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071221/ap_on_bi_ge/wall_street_bonuses
December 21st, 2007 at 8:42 am
I wonder what the bonus structure’s are going to look next year when foreign sovereign funds control 10% of most of the Wall Street firms?
December 21st, 2007 at 8:43 am
BC (24)-
Ever see a silo explode? They get filled with dust, and something sparks the dust, and BOOM! Like a damn tactical nuke going off.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:44 am
HE (28)-
The bonuses will be that the exec’s who perform won’t get tortured with power drills.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:44 am
Clot,
I can picture you blowing it up.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:44 am
From MarketWatch:
U.S. Nov. core PCE price index up 0.2% vs. 0.3% expected
U.S. Nov. PCE price index up 0.6%, most in 2 years
U.S. Nov. core inflation up 2.2% in past year
U.S. Nov. personal incomes up 0.4% vs. 0.5% expected
U.S. Nov. consumer spending up 1.1% vs. 0.9% expected
U.S. Nov. real consumer spending up 0.5%
U.S. Nov. personal savings rate falls to negative 0.5%
U.S. Nov. real disposable incomes fall 0.3%, 2nd drop in row
December 21st, 2007 at 8:45 am
Inflation up, incomes down, spending up, savings down.
Sustainable?
December 21st, 2007 at 8:47 am
John (25)-
“A few weeks ago I saw a 4th boy grade boy getting pummeled right when school ended by two 5th grade boys who were waiting for him, teacher comes out and says you have to do this off school property so they drag the kid to the lawn across the street and continue to pummel and the teacher goes back in. Don’t worry I broke it up.”
Good you mentioned that you stepped in. I would’ve thought you’d be taking bets on the outcome.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:47 am
JB,
Regarding spending, inflation adjusted spending on durable goods rose 0.6%.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:48 am
I think John got pummeled by the 5th graders.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:48 am
Willow btw the number of kids going to four year colleges isn’t always much of a statistic. In blue collar neighborhoods with great schools lots of kids can’t afford to go to a four year school and start at a cheap two year school to save money.
That said I know plenty of crappy schools in rich neighborhoods that all the rich kids go to school at. For instance CW Post in Old Brookville Long Island. Is a beautiful school set on a former estate surrounded by mansions and minutes from the tony miracle mile shopping center. Tuition is expensive and with a checkbook and a C average and a nice pair of Uggs and a new BMW you are more than welcome to mingle with the other psudo well to do paris hilton look alikes. The camplus is so nice it is a huge spot in the summer for for wedding pictures. The beautiful mansion and rose gardens in the background actually makes for some great shots.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:48 am
grim (26)-
Ever read any Walker Percy? It’s right up your alley. Apocalyptic, yet weirdly uplifting. Try Love in the Ruins.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:49 am
Grim,
You ask too many questions. Go read something by Ben Stein or Larry Kudlow. Everything is good in the goldilocks economy, this subprime issue is contained.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:49 am
“I wonder what the bonus structure’s are going to look next year when foreign sovereign funds control 10% of most of the Wall Street firms?”
hehe,
Funny you mention that. When I walked past the bull[Broadway], this morning, there was pandemonium. A large contingent of Arabs and Chinese were involved in heated discussions regarding the removal of the bull. It became tumultuous when the final choices for replacement came down to either a dragon or a camel.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:50 am
here’s a question…
a contract states that if radon is found, the seller needs to remedy the situation. If not, buyer can cancel contract.
what if you didn’t want the house now…even it was remedied? does a person still have to buy the house?
December 21st, 2007 at 8:50 am
Clot,
I prefer the pliers/fingernail routine myself. Makes it harder for them to use their Blackberry’s.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:52 am
I grew up in the Bronx we got pummeled in Kindergaten. By 4th grade we were street smart and doing the shakedowns. Kindergarten in the Bronx is like prison, four choices - take the beatings, give the beatings, be the bitch or be the snitch.
BC Bob Says:
December 21st, 2007 at 8:48 am
I think John got pummeled by the 5th graders.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:53 am
BC,
I propose a lead paint covered barrel of oil.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:54 am
Waler Percy’s Love in the Ruins:
http://tinyurl.com/2j9m27
I can also highly recommend The Moviegoers.
December 21st, 2007 at 8:56 am
Does anyone have the actual price drops of homes in NJ for 2006 and 2007?
thanks,
Tony
December 21st, 2007 at 8:58 am
John (43)-
“…take the beatings, give the beatings, be the bitch or be the snitch.”
John, thanks for that warm holiday sentiment.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:00 am
About Schools: My wife is a Catholic School teacher and my child attends the same school. The pay is sh*t but the teachers give every ounce they can and the educational standards are tough. They encourage and expect you to succeed without coddling you. The Catholic schools are still a community which donates a lot of their time and money that public schools take for granted. If you’re considering sending your children to a Catholic school, I recommend it.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:01 am
Tony,
S&P Case Shiller Tiered Price Index (XLS)
You are looking for the New York Metro numbers.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:05 am
Tony,
Or the aggregate numbers:
S&P Case Shiller Home Price Index (XLS)
NY Metro Area (commutable area)
June 2006 - Peak
Index: 215.83
September 2007 - Current
Index: 206.28
Peak to current decline is 4.4% aggregate
September year over year decline is 3.6% aggregate
(nominal, not adjusted for inflation)
If you want that in dollars, it means that a home valued at $500,000 in June of 2006 is currently valued at $478,000.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:06 am
This was a segment on Nightline last week:
Bankruptcy judges have begun to respond. Gardner has a wall covered with copies of checks from judgments he’s won against a variety of mortgage-servicing companies.
“We display these checks on the wall to sort of give my boot campers some encouragement,” Gardner said. “That even though it’s very difficult, there is some financial incentive for them to do it.”
And he cautions that it’s not just financially distressed homeowners who find themselves the victims of mortgage servicing fraud. He warns all mortgage holders to be cautious.
“If you have a home mortgage you need to do the same thing whether you are in bankruptcy or not,” Gardener warned. “Whether you are AAA credit or single D credit. And you need to write your servicer at least once every six months and ask for your transaction history.”
He says the fees often are very small — $25, $100, $200 — but if they happen to thousands of customers they add up to millions of dollars in revenue for servicing companies. And, critics warn, with less business coming in from new loans, mortgage servicers will be even hungrier for other ways to make money.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/RealtyCheck/story?id=4002397&page=1
December 21st, 2007 at 9:07 am
#17 willow: Most peeople believe their schools to be good, if not great, as such the whole empahasis on Blue Ribbon (which no longer exists and all the rest).
What I am saying is the majortiy of people, do not haev a clue. The BOE’s and teachers/administrators tell them that their schools are great,and that is it.
The only input they want from parents, is to vote Yes on the school budget or, your property values will fall, then please go home.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:08 am
gary (48)-
My brother went to Catholic school (Jesuit). His primary memory is six years of constant beatings. No paddles, no rulers, but fist-to-jaw beatdowns. One of the brothers beat him so bad that it dislocated his shoulder. My brother says he got used to the beatings, but he had to draw the line when a couple of teachers started making passes.
Of course, it had no effect on him…other than the fact that he went off to college and was arrested several times for either starting- or jumping into- fights. Wonder how he got a taste for that?
December 21st, 2007 at 9:13 am
Clotpoll [53],
I’m surprised to hear that. I went to Catholic schools from K through 12 and had nothing but great memories. Coming out of high school, we already had 2 years of college under our belt with classes like Elementary Functions, Histology, Physics, etc.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:20 am
From the AP:
Panel pushes minimum-wage boost, annual increases
A state commission has recommended that New Jersey immediately increase the minimum wage to $8.25 per hour and then boost it annually to keep pace with inflation.
New Jersey’s minimum wage is $7.15 per hour. The Minimum Wage Advisory Commission, in its first report since it was created by legislators two years ago, determined it should be increased to $8.25 per hour followed by cost-of-living adjustments each year.
The minimum wage increase would have to be approved by the Legislature and Gov. Jon Corzine.
It would give New Jersey the nation’s highest minimum wage, according to the U.S. Department of Labor.
The state panel found the $7.15 per hour level is no longer adequate to maintain the same purchasing power as when it was implemented in October 2006.
…
However, some say the increase would be too much, too soon.
“Small businesses that rely on entry level minimum wage employment simply cannot afford this increase in a single step,” he said. “As these businesses struggle to try to cope with other rising costs such as energy and transportation, they simply can’t afford a 55 percent increase in wages over three years.”
In 2005, the state’s minimum wage started at $5.15 per hour. The Legislature increased it to $6.15 per hour that year, then to $7.15 per hour in 2006.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:21 am
gary (54)-
My brother came away from the Jesuits with a great education, too. He ended up getting a Masters’ in forestry. However, it came at the price of social disorders and ongoing anger management issues.
I’m sure the number of Catholic schools that treat kids well and educate far outnumber the exceptions, but it’s no secret that there has always been an element of violence and abuse within Catholic education.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:23 am
Hell, they invented self-flagellation!
December 21st, 2007 at 9:25 am
Gary,
Except for your sentiments regarding the market, I think I may be related to you. Catholic school K-12, Jesuit college.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:25 am
Checking out. Market’s gonna be a rocket sled today.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:26 am
40 BC …that wasn’t heated arguing about the bull, it was interpretive dance. I just know we’ll convert ‘em once they own us, right?
December 21st, 2007 at 9:27 am
Clotpoll,
Believe me, they don’t beat the kids. They’ve come out of the dark ages. :)
December 21st, 2007 at 9:30 am
BC Bob,
LOL! We’re cut from the same cloth, dude.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:34 am
#58 BC Bob: Catholic School K-12. Christian Brothers college.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:36 am
i went to a public school and our main rival (in sports) was a catholic school. as long as i can remember, every sporting function ended in bleacher clearing brawls and eventually demanded police presence for all events.
i can not talk about the difference in education but at face value, the catholic school kids had nicer clothes, nicer cars and the all of the girls seemed to be beautiful debutantes. however the main difference in the schools….drugs. there was a major heroin problem at the catholic school while my school was dazed and confused on pot.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:39 am
Clot[pol # 29
Ever see a silo explode? They get filled with dust, and something sparks the dust, and BOOM! Like a damn tactical nuke going off.
That is a fuel-air explosion and is actually the most powerful type of non-nuclear explosion you can produce…. FYI
A little fun info for you that is way OT. The thermobaric weapons that the marines have been using in Iraq and Afghanistan (thermobaric weapons are fuel air explosion based weapons) work by using a small detonation to release a fuel component (the military often uses Ethylene Oxide. That fuel compoenent is then detonated a split second later. The pressure wave that is created is the ost dangerous part of the explosion and is what does most of the damage, the heat and fire is just secondary. The pressure wave can crush your chest. A fun side effect is that if the fuel (ethylene oxide ) fails to ignite, then it just fills the air and does not explode. BUT, ethylene oxide will kill anything it comes in contact with, people, microbes, anything. It is used in Pharma to sterilize equipment. So if the fuel fails to ignite, the thermobaric weapon just became a chemical weapon. of course the military will not acknowledge the issue, but i bet they enjoy having a weapon that kills people even if it fails to work.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:41 am
Secondary,
LOL! The same regarding the rivals. However, I wore hand me downs, my Chuck Taylor’s were my car and we drank cheap beer.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:48 am
#66
nice!
ironically i ended up going to college with some of the rivals and eventually became friends. like many things, the grass is always greener on the other side; i found out they “envied” our school because there was diversity in the student body and we had rebellious swagger to our teams. its funny how human nature really doesn’t change.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:51 am
Willow, CLot
I agree 100% with both of you. What kills me is why do people insist on maintaining the status quo when it doesnt work?? At this point i would be opne to trying anything besides the status quo. There are phenominally successful school system all over the world. Finland is a great example. Why not take their system and mimic it here? I know that this will never happen because there is way to much vested interest in the status quo as there are a large number of people who are fat and happy with the current system and most people are afraid of change. I am still trying to figure out how to send my kid to private school in a few years ( he’s still working on the walking thing)
December 21st, 2007 at 9:51 am
From Page One of the WSJ:
Fraud Seen as a Driver
In Wave of Foreclosures
Atlanta Ring Scams
Bear Stearns, Getting
$6.8 Million in Loans
By MICHAEL CORKERY
December 21, 2007; Page A1
ATLANTA — Skyrocketing foreclosures are a testament to how easy it was to borrow from mortgage lenders in recent years.
It may also have been easy to steal from them, to judge from a multimillion-dollar fraud scheme that federal prosecutors unraveled here in Atlanta. The criminals obtained $6.8 million in mortgages from Bear Stearns Cos., including a $1.8 million mortgage to Calvin Wright, a New Yorker who told the investment bank that he and his wife earned more than $50,000 a month as the top officers of a marketing firm. Mr. Wright submitted statements showing assets of $3 million, a federal indictment alleged.
In fact, Mr. Wright was a phone technician earning only $105,000 a year, with assets of only $35,000, and his wife was a homemaker. The palm-tree-lined mansion they purchased with Bear Stearns’s $1.8 million recently sold out of foreclosure for just $1.1 million. Bear Stearns, meanwhile, posted the first quarterly loss in its 84-year history as it wrote down $1.9 billion of mortgage assets yesterday.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119820566870044163.html?mod=hps_us_whats_news
December 21st, 2007 at 9:53 am
Look, I know I’m much older than most people on this site, and therefore attended public school during a different era. I had teachers who inspired me, but I also had teachers who never actually taught. (One sat at his desk and read the NY Times during class.) Can it be so totally different now? I think not. My niece recently graduated from public schools—in NJ—and is now at “seven sisters” college, which she got to on her own initiative, not by being a legacy.
So much of a good education depends on one thing: parents. Mine (only one of whom graduated high school) were very involved with their kids’ educations. Unfortunately, this seems to be a luxury for parents today.
But I also repeat what I post most often on this site. If you want change, you have to work to make it happen. Not getting results when you complain to school officials? Then send your rants to the local paper as a letter to the editor. Is there a parent/teacher asociation at your school? Do you belong? Do you go to meetings? Talk to other parents? Write letters to your representatives? Doing these things are also part of the educational process for your children, otherwise they will definitely grow up to be “sheeple.”
Okay, go ahead. Flame away.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:56 am
Count me in too, though it was in a different continent - Catholic School for 6 years taught by Irish brothers, then military school through age 17, then Christian College for undergrad.
Won’t ever forget the beatings we took and gave.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:57 am
My wife was a public school teacher before Catholic school. The system is a bloated mess. The super, assistant super, assistant to the assistant super, etc. There are so many layers of administrative waste, it’s hilarious.
December 21st, 2007 at 9:59 am
Another question….
Why are people so afraid of private school/ voucher systems? The entire concept of voucher systems drives the status quo people to frothing at the mouth. Do they really believe that only the government can effectively educate a child or are they afraid that they may actually be that inadequate?
December 21st, 2007 at 10:00 am
#70 peace: I agree with you. The problem is people are happy for the most part with their schools, they perceive mediocre as excellence, because thats what they have been instructed to believe.
New facilities with state of the art palying fields, and lights for night time games, that is what is important.
The only way you will get people to a meeting is if the BOE threatens to cancel a sports program, nobody cares if AP Western Europeasn history is cancelled.
Plus if you are perceived to be a gadfly, and you write letters to the local paper, and all the rest, your children will pay for that.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:04 am
I’m generally a supporter of public education. When I say public education, I mean free, universal education for all. I don’t think any of us would want to return to the days when only those who had the money could educate their children. Clearly, that would be bad for all of us.
But one can support free, universal and public education and still see the flaws in the current system.
It’s taken me a while to come around to this point, especially since I consider myself politically progressive, but I have to admit that the public schools are broken. The fact that families don’t have a choice and the tenure system is locked in place are huge parts of the problem.
I’m all for paying teachers well, but I do believe there are too many crappy, incompetent teachers out there. If I was a (good) teacher, it would tick me off too.
As long as the only check on power is voting for the Board of Education, which is a long, slow process, the mediocrity will continue. Only when parents can take their children out and send them (and the dollars) to another school will we see improvements.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:05 am
“Won’t ever forget the beatings we took and gave.”
Dream,
Are you the Bayonne bleeder?
December 21st, 2007 at 10:06 am
As clott has said, One of the main reasons that the establishment will fight tooth and nail to prevent any choice in shools is that once the government loose control of education the general population becomes much harder to control. Its much easier to control a population when you can spoon feed them the learning skills and knowledge that you want them to receive and block that which you do not want them to be readily aware of. A population taught to be intellectually critical and independent is hard for a government to take power from….
December 21st, 2007 at 10:07 am
Transplant here, I can’t pass up a chance to jump in yesterday’s chat.
The ‘culture’ value of NJ is being overstated tremendously. Yes, there is a seemingly endless amount of things to do — IMO the tristate area is probably one of the most ‘happening’ regions — but the time/funds to partake is not endless. I don’t find myself actually doing much more than when I lived in PA.
The whole educated populace thing is bunk too. If you find yourself living in one of those towns with a 50% dropout rate, you find the white collared neighborhood and set up there. You’ll find a similar education rate to what NJ supposedly offers.
Also, I’ve never had a problem being the smartest guy in the room. That’s not a bad thing.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:09 am
peace (70)-
“But I also repeat what I post most often on this site. If you want change, you have to work to make it happen.”
Peace, I agree. However, I think the change agent is sadly going to have to be an armed citizen militia. Things are too far gone for reason and discourse to prevail.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:12 am
Ann
“But one can support free, universal and public education and still see the flaws in the current system.”
That should be our ultimate goal. An education at the institution of your choice, whether private or public ( any institution that shows they teach basic cores like math/science/civics/etc) should be ensured by the Government.
Now i have to admit i feel almost dirty saying that because i am very much for limited government, but this is one place where government has a place.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:18 am
kettle1 Says:
December 21st, 2007 at 9:59 am
Another question….
Why are people so afraid of private school/ voucher systems? The entire concept of voucher systems drives the status quo people to frothing at the mouth. Do they really believe that only the government can effectively educate a child or are they afraid that they may actually be that inadequate?
________________________________________________
But people have “school choice” now–they’re called private schools. And a voucher system doesn’t magically create school quality–no matter what, some schools will be better than others, and all the parents will want to send their children to the better schools. How would vouchers be any different than the current dynamic, where all the parents just try to squeeze into the school districts with the “better schools”?
December 21st, 2007 at 10:19 am
#21
Clot– great post. Education is definitely a two way street, not analogous to consumerism. The decline of standards comes from both directions– from the many teachers and administrators who are too comfortable, but also from parents who will not allow their children to be challenged. The goal of many, many parents in so-called top schools unfortunately is simply for the school to give their children the stamp of approval in the form of high GPAs, while otherwise not getting in the way of the kids’ lifestyle too much.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:29 am
OK totally unrelated question (excuse me). What the alternate electrical and gas providers in NJ? I have PSE&G and JCPL but it looks like I can use a different generator for each and use them for distribution only. Are there any worth while looking at. In CT I did this and saved about 10% but not sure if this is possible in NJ.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:29 am
re: 7
And yet YOU’ve gotten prickly when someone here says all realtors/real estate brokers are corrupt, lazy morons?…
Not starting a flame-war here, just trying to separate fact from generalization: Let’s try not to tar too many with the same messy brush, mmmkay.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:29 am
#81
If you had vouchers of some sort, the idea is that the cruddy schools wouldn’t get as many or any “customers” and therefore would go out of business.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:36 am
this isn’t really a PC thing to say, but everyone knows the worst schools are where the poorest, least educated portion of the population lives. This is one reason why the voucher concept seems to me to be a pipe dream. If all of the kids who live in the ghetto all of a sudden abandon the ghetto school for the school in the rich neighborhood, what do you think would happen? First, all of the rich families would abandon this school. Second, many of the best teachers would abandon the school. Third, the school would fall to the level of the school the ghetto kids left. The reality is that kids are only in school for 6 hrs a day and the family environment and prevailing values in the community are far more important in determining the quality of education that results in schools.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:39 am
Grim,
Thanks for your advices in other column, just two more questions:
“I’d suggest exploring REO offerings if you are interested in foreclosure properties.”
– what is a REO? sorry for my ignorance.
“Given the fact that a significant percentage of foreclosures taking place have either no equity, or negative equity, you won’t find a deal at a foreclosure auction. As mortgage balances are higher than market prices (underwater), upset prices are higher than market. Just doesn’t make sense to bid on these.”
– do you mean they will still asking higher than market price?
Thanks,
007
December 21st, 2007 at 10:40 am
What state’s public schools produce a higher proportion of collegebound students?
New Jersey seems overrepresented at nearly every university (except evangelical Christian) in this country. I’m not saying public schools in this state are perfect, but something good must be happening.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:41 am
On vouchers 86
I’m not sure it would solve all of the problems. The idea is that, even for middle class or even wealthy families, being able to pick your school and where to send those dollars, would infuse the system with a healthy sense of competition that is currently lacking.
For those stuck in inner city schools, I believe that many families would be helped. There are always some families that are motivated, even in the poorest communities. Give them a chance to pick their school.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:42 am
since everyone here put so much weight on education, i cannot resist putting my thesis here again: the property value in the towns with best school systems will hold well. how much are you going to spend for private school? say you have 2 kids and $20K each so you have to spend $40K annually.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:42 am
John: I’d have guess’d you went to Great Neck North based on how much you talk about it
December 21st, 2007 at 10:44 am
NJ public schools number 1 in country on key performance metric.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ewp_08_t06.htm
December 21st, 2007 at 10:45 am
pret says
“What state’s public schools produce a higher proportion of collegebound students?
New Jersey seems overrepresented at nearly every university (except evangelical Christian) in this country. I’m not saying public schools in this state are perfect, but something good must be happening.”
That could be seen as a result of the demographics of NJ (income, education levels), not as some triumph of the public schools here in NJ.
Let’s be real, the reason that the top schools in NJ are the top schools is because of the families, not the schools. It’s no coincidence that the richest towns end up with the best schools. It’s not because the teachers and admins are so great, it’s because the children come from families that value education and grew up in educationally-rich environments.
Although I enjoy when teachers and admins in rich school districts take all the credit for the successes of the students.
Yet when they are in poor districts where the children come from educationally-deficient homes, they are quick to load the blame onto the families.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:49 am
bubbleyum
in the current system if a school is average or poor, then the only way to change is to physically move. In a voucher system the idea is that i just send my child to a different building during the day and i do not have to move my entire family to a new house. An school that does not perform would and should go out of business, whether it is a public or private school. The current system has 0 choice. the debate is simply how a school performs. I want choice in curriculum. I can find a private school for montasorri/catholic/etc, but the only way i can get my child into one of those schools is for me to pay DOUBLE, one in private school tuition and a second time in taxes that go to public schools. why should the portion of education money allocated for my child not follow my child???
And while there are both good and bad teachers in public schools, it is ultimately the system that is broken, not the individual teachers. The fight is not against teachers as individuals, but against teachers and administrators as part of the “system”
Oh and bubble yum, what percentage of the general population can actually afford to pay for private school??? people do not have an equivalent choice! But people have “school choice” now–they’re called private schools.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:53 am
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — The United States is deep in its worst housing slump since the Great Depression, and according to a new report, it’s not going to get better any time soon.
In a new survey, Moody’s Economy.com says many metro areas will record losses of 20 percent or more during the downturn, with the national median price for single-family homes dropping 13 percent through early 2009. Factoring in discount offers from sellers, the actual price decline would be well over 15 percent.
80 of the 381 metro areas covered by the report will record double-digit losses, according to the report. Most of the worst-hit markets are in once high-flying areas such as California and Florida.
The steep losses were bound to arrive sometime. Throughout the housing slump, which began in the summer of 2006, experts kept expecting prices to tumble, but it wasn’t until recently that they dropped substantially, according to Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody’s Economy.com.
“There has been a sea change in seller psychology since the subprime shock this summer,” he said. “Sellers now realize they have to drop their prices to make a sale and prices are coming down very rapidly in some markets.”
One such place is Punta Gorda, Fla. In Moody’s outlook, prices there will undergo the steepest correction of any U.S. market. From their peak during the first three months of 2006, to their bottom, forecast for the second quarter of 2009, prices will decline 35.3 percent. That’s in nominal dollars; adjusted for inflation, the loss will be even greater.
Other metro areas expected to go through crushing price drops include: Stockton, Calif., where prices are forecast to drop 31.6 percent, Modesto, Calif., (-31.3 percent), Fort Walton Beach, Fla, (-30.4 percent) and Naples, Fla. (-29.6 percent).
The worst hit market outside the Sun Belt is expected to be Ocean City, N.J. where prices will fall 24.9 percent, according to Moody’s. Prices in St. George, Utah (-21.8 percent), Grand Junction, Colo. (-18.9 percent) and Atlantic City, N.J. (-18.6 percent) will also suffer. In the Washington, D.C. metro area, Moody’s forecasts a decline of 18.4 percent.
Home prices are being pulled down by an even more severe decline in home sales, which Moody’s expects to bottom out in early 2008, when unit sales will be down more than 40 percent from their peak.
Home builders continued to add to inventory even as the slump got well underway, contributing to what it now an 11-month back-log of homes for sale, according to the National Association of Realtors.
Many of these homes are sitting completely empty: The Census Bureau reported a total of 2.1 million vacant homes for sale. Vacant homes add pressure on prices because owners of these houses are usually more willing to slash prices to move the properties. They cost out-of-pocket cash each month while providing neither income nor shelter.
Even though home construction has now contracted severely - the Census Bureau reported Tuesday that new housing starts were down to an annualized rate of 1.187 million units in November, the lowest in 16 years - it will take time to work through the excess inventory.
The housing slump will have a substantial impact on the overall economy, according to Moody’s, which says it will depress real gross domestic product by more than a percentage point this year and by 1.5 percentage points in 2008.
Speculative investment in the mid-2000s helped fuel the current slump. Zandi pointed out that 16 percent of mortgage originations during 2005 were for non-owner occupied housing, twice the number of a few years earlier.
“And that’s a very conservative estimate of investor demand,” he said. “Many home buyers lied on their mortgage applications.” That’s because interest rates are lower for owner/occupied dwellings.
Buying for investment was especially prevalent in many resort areas, such as Ocean City, N.J. Many buyers were betting they could hold onto the property for a short time and sell it for a quick profit, a difficult feat to finesse, considering the high transactional costs. Many speculators came late to the party and got caught in the slump. Now their properties are adding to mountainous inventories.
Another factor was excessive new home construction, especially in once hot markets. As prices skyrocketed, builders rushed to take advantage of the increases, contributing to the now high inventories.
Also adding homes to markets was the increase in foreclosure filings. When lenders take back properties, they put them back on the markets. Foreclosures have just about doubled this year.
For the slump to end, much of the excess inventory will have to be worked through. Zandi doesn’t envision that happening much before 2010, which he forecasts to be a very modest recovery year with low, single-digit growth.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:54 am
I guess I just don’t understand how school choice would work in practice. Why wouldn’t every parent choose the very best school? Could the better schools actually absorb the population fleeing the worse ones?
I’m not saying nothing about public schools needs to change. I just don’t see how vouchers would be practically effective.
December 21st, 2007 at 10:54 am
clot (and others)
I’m with you. Our system is set up to keep sheep(le.)
Keep folks uneducated, sick (look at our current system’s failures) poor and above all feeling hopeless and utterly discouraged and you have the perfect system to manipulate and abuse them to your benefit.
Our legislators, laws, courts and spirit have been hijacked by special interests all across this country.
Our medical system is yet another canary in the coal mine. Got money? you might be ok. Got NO money? Good Luck.
I’m losing my very own OB/GYN to New Mexico because his malpractice insurance is unaffordable in NJ. [for the record, he's NEVER been named in a suit.] If he (with a thriving practice in NJ) as an exceptional doc can’t make it. Goodbye to the rest.
We are a sinking ship.
sl
December 21st, 2007 at 10:56 am
Skeptic #86
You are correct, the school is only 1 piece of the puzzle. For a child to flourish they also need a supportive home life that encourages education and learning as a life style, not just a necassary evil.
But why should we not try to fix one part of the problem even if we have no immediate solution to the other half. Their is no easy answer to rebuilding family integrity in poor families. But we can change our school system for the better in the form of vouchers and other reforms. Change in schools is not an all or nothing proposition and I am not suggesting that a voucher system would be a silver bullet, just a step in the right direction.
How long are public schools going to scream for more money and say that they could improve but only with more money , even though we already spend more then any other country in the world on education yet rank some around 15 or 20 in results?!?!
December 21st, 2007 at 10:58 am
NYC public schools actually have a variation of school choice, I believe. My understanding is that families rank the schools they would like to go to. People do not always get their top choices and many kids remain stuck going to the worst schools. The system as a whole is still pretty awful, though it seems to have improved slightly.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:00 am
Skeptic,
please atke a look at this link, its to a study on the comparison of USA and Finland schools. I would personal suggest that we overhaul our system and model theirs. You question about vouchers is answered by their system
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/sadowska.356/introduction
December 21st, 2007 at 11:02 am
“If he (with a thriving practice in NJ) as an exceptional doc can’t make it. Goodbye to the rest.”
sl [97],
Very troubling.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:02 am
#93 Ann: I agree, education has to be stressed in the household, and many wealthy families, do however, just as many do not, as many of those parents are self involbved absorbed in their own lives.
For instance in the HS that my Son attended, the summer reading program was voluntary, he was the only one of his friends who had to do it, every year.
Now college, same thing, I pay for it, but you have to make Dean’s List every semester, he knows what is exepcted, and that came from home.
I cannot tell you how many kids I know, all from middle to upper middle class affluent families, with all the trappings, whose kids have bombed out after the first or second year in college, 50 to 100K just pssed away. That is just not acceptable.
Its the quiet people who many times make the difference.
For instance some of the biggest school champions, who adovocate spending scads of money on everything and any thing, their kids are some of the biggest screw ups,and sadly it is not their fault;its the parents.
Many times its just the simpel things. Instead of running around making sure everybody votes yes on the latest bloated budget proposal, how about just making sure your child’s homework is done,
December 21st, 2007 at 11:02 am
“We didn’t kill the market…” (sing-a-long)
http://www.wallstrip.com/2007/12/20/12-20-07-haha/
December 21st, 2007 at 11:04 am
i put in the wrong link…
This is closer to what i meant to put in. I couldnt find the exact link i was looking for in a quick search. This will give you an over view though
http://www.bestofgooglevideo.com/video.php?video=654
December 21st, 2007 at 11:05 am
It was a great 70’s band, REO members are now real estate brokers and would be more than happy to show you some properties.
“I’d suggest exploring REO offerings if you are interested in foreclosure properties.”
– what is a REO? sorry for my ignorance.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:06 am
#95 grim: BAsed on that articel posed, is it also your belief that the market peaked in the Summer of 2006? I always thought the general consensus here was Summer of 2005.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:07 am
SCHOOL IS FOR FOOLS AND I PITY THE FOOLS!!!!!
December 21st, 2007 at 11:10 am
3b,
I think the market peaked at different times in different areas.
Exurbs and inner cities - 2005
Suburbs - 2006
Hudson County waterfont - 2007
December 21st, 2007 at 11:11 am
#98
Kettle– my personal belief is that money is in fact the issue and kids with ghetto backgrounds cannot be saved by shuffling them (and their currently designated education funds) around.
For schools to really make a difference in these kids lives, they essentially need to supply the structured homelife they are missing. This would cost a lot of money which people quite simply aren’t willing to pay.
I am talking about class sizes of like 4 students instead of 25. Every kid assigned a counselor/mentor to help with everyday problems (and counselors given caseloads of like 10 instead of 200 kids).
Massively increased school hours and calendars. Curriculum which goes beyond the three Rs and teaches life skills and morals. Maybe even boarding.
I have a pretty bleak view of the situation of course and do not think that a real solution such as the above is politically feasible.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:13 am
A late comment from SA yesterday
# sas Says:
December 21st, 2007 at 12:20 am
Why does NJ’s situation remind of years leading to the economical collapse Argentina??
yikes.
SAS
he has a point, i mean massive levels of debt, a withering industrial sector, and lack of business growth isnt a problem in NJ
December 21st, 2007 at 11:15 am
I was educated Catholic, K through undergrad.
If I have kids I truly debate sending them to Catholic schools. Benefits: Pretty good education, ingrained sense that you have to work hard in this world and nothing will be given to you. Cost: Fear based morality that really begins to weigh on you after a while and affects your emotional development.
I am 36 noe and stopped going to Church when I was 14 and I still feel guilty about sh*t most people wouldn’t even consider feeling guilty about but at the same time I don’t expect any handouts and can provide for myself.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:15 am
Yes I went to HS in Great Neck and we were either number one or two in the nation in US News Ranking that year. Even now Great Neck is way way ahead of any school public or private in NJ.
We even had an equistrian team and 32 tennis courts!! My favorite was had an on campus go cart track and in 9th grade I used to take the go carts out and crank it up to 50 mph, nice stuff. Great Neck South HS the sister school of Great Neck North HS is on over 100 acres of land!! Great Neck North even has valet parking for its students. Both North and South is way up there on the list. Other than the nice campus and great clubs the teachers were the worst ever.
That school is a complete piece of crap which shows the rating services mean nothing.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:17 am
102 3b
I agree, a wealthy family can screw up too.
But just growing up in a home where the parents went to college makes a huge difference, no matter how anti-intellectual they may be now.
There are studies that show that children whose mother went to college do significantly better overall (can’t remember the measure) just because those mothers have a wider vocabulary.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:17 am
Skeptic # 109,
Scary… I have suggested essentially the same solution for poor/poor inner city kids to my wife. She agreed that it will happen the day pigs fly. Basicalkly the environm,ent that most of those kids grow up in ids the problem and the most effective solution is to either remove them from the lacking environment or to minimize exposure.
But hey that was way unPC, what am i thinking, there are no bad parents
December 21st, 2007 at 11:19 am
pretorius Says:
December 21st, 2007 at 10:40 am
New Jersey seems overrepresented at nearly every university (except evangelical Christian) in this country. I’m not saying public schools in this state are perfect, but something good must be happening.
pret: as close as you have come to complementing any aspect of NJ, other than what is located within 5 miles of the Lincoln Tunnel.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:21 am
#114 I know it’s a TV show but if you caught the last season of The Wire it gave a pretty vivid account of why inner city schools are so f’d up!
December 21st, 2007 at 11:22 am
re: 5th graders.
Here is something close for John and BC.
http://www.howmanyfiveyearoldscouldyoutakeinafight.com/
December 21st, 2007 at 11:23 am
#100
Kettle– had a look at the link and my guess is that certain aspects of the Finnish system would be transferable to the U.S. and very helpful (such as smaller class sizes– #1 difference between public and private schools by the way). I am skeptical of the degree to which the Finnish system would be successful in the U.S. in a wholesale manner though given that the U.S. and Finland are very different countries.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:24 am
NJ panel pushes minimum wage hike, annual increases
TRENTON, N.J. (AP) _ New Jersey’s minimum wage should immediately be increased to $8.25 per hour and then boosted annually to keep pace with inflation, a state commission has recommended.
New Jersey’s minimum wage is currently $7.15 per hour.
The Minimum Wage Advisory Commission, in its first report since it was created by legislators two years ago, determined it should be increased to $8.25 per hour followed by automatic cost-of-living adjustments each year.
The minimum wage increase would have to be approved by the Legislature and Gov. Jon S. Corzine.
It would give New Jersey the nation’s highest minimum wage, according to the U.S. Department of Labor.
The state panel found the $7.15 per hour level is no longer adequate to maintain the same purchasing power as when it was implemented in October 2006.
“New Jersey’s minimum-wage workers are struggling to make ends meet,” said Labor Commissioner David J. Socolow, the chairman of the Minimum Wage Advisory Commission. “Without an immediate increase in the minimum wage and annual cost-of-living increases every year these workers fall even further behind.”
At $7.15 per hour, a minimum wage worker earns about $2,000 less than the federal poverty level of $17,160 per year; an $8.25 per hour wage would bring that worker even with the poverty level.
New Jersey would be the 11th state to automatically increase their minimum wage based on inflation rates. Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Missouri, Montana, Nevada, Ohio, Oregon, Vermont and Washington already have such a policy.
“Minimum-wage workers in New Jersey need a raise and a real opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty through their hard work,” Socolow said.
However, some say the increase would be too much, too soon.
“Small businesses that rely on entry level minimum wage employment simply cannot afford this increase in a single step,” said Philip Kirschner, president of the New Jersey Business & Industry Association. “As these businesses struggle to try to cope with other rising costs such as energy and transportation, they simply can’t afford a 55 percent increase in wages over three years.”
In 2005, the state’s minimum wage started at $5.15 per hour. The Legislature increased it to $6.15 per hour that year, then to $7.15 per hour in 2006.
Corzine spokeswoman Lilo Stainton said the governor will review the report but supports increasing the minimum wage and tying it to inflation.
“The governor believes that New Jerseyans who work hard and play by the rules should be able to make a decent living,” Stainton said.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:24 am
Ann, I agree that parenting quality is the key differentiator for kid’s educational attainment.
But NJ parents have a lot of influence over local schools. More than almost any other state, NJ public schools are managed and funded locally. This empowers parents. School meetings happen nearby. They get to vote on budgets, and in most districts, elect the school board. They elect the people who negotiate the union contracts. Most places have a local newspaper that reports, more than anything else, on public school issues and are happy to publish letters to the editor about school topics.
If a whiny parent is looking for somebody to blame, a convenient starting point would be the person they see in the mirror.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:25 am
John Says:
December 21st, 2007 at 8:48 am
For instance CW Post in Old Brookville Long Island. Is a beautiful school set on a former estate surrounded by mansions and minutes from the tony miracle mile shopping center. Tuition is expensive and with a checkbook and a C average and a nice pair of Uggs and a new BMW you are more than welcome to mingle with the other psudo well to do paris hilton look alikes.
John: Thanks for a little inside poop here…..I feel bad for my cousin and her husband. They are smart and successful, and have a nice home, and their three kids are just nothing. The oldest is 24 or so and doing some useless coursework at CW Post. The middle is the nicest guy, but didn’t even think twice about bailing on college and doing a trade job. The youngest was ostensibly the super-scholar of the bunch, and managed to skate down the LIE to SUNY Stoneyland……the whole thing is a clusterf- cess pool. What a disaster…these kids are going to be on the permanent take unless married off properly :( :( :(
December 21st, 2007 at 11:27 am
111 HEHEHE
Is that where my guilt problems come from? All that Catholic school? Damn.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:32 am
120 pretorius says
Ann, I agree that parenting quality is the key differentiator for kid’s educational attainment.
“But NJ parents have a lot of influence over local schools. More than almost any other state, NJ public schools are managed and funded locally. This empowers parents. School meetings happen nearby. They get to vote on budgets, and in most districts, elect the school board. They elect the people who negotiate the union contracts. Most places have a local newspaper that reports, more than anything else, on public school issues and are happy to publish letters to the editor about school topics.
If a whiny parent is looking for somebody to blame, a convenient starting point would be the person they see in the mirror.”
Yes, that is one plus of our 600+ school districts. As bad as property taxes are, at least they are spent locally, giving a bit more local control. If they were all just funneled up to the county to state, it would be total disaster.
I agree that local control gives parents accessibility, but at the end of the day, the only way a parent, or a citizen for that matter, can affect change is to vote out the School Board. That is a long and slow process. If parents could choose schools, it would be a more effective process, infusing a bit of competition into an environment that badly needs it.
As long as a town knows that you are going to cough up thousands of dollars a year to the school district, no matter what, what incentive do they have to improve?
December 21st, 2007 at 11:32 am
Ann,
It’s a long unwinding process, good luck!!
December 21st, 2007 at 11:32 am
#116
my mom is a social worker (not in Baltimore, but another city) and my impression from the stories she tells is that the show is very accurate.
I’m sure many people on this board know people who grew up in very poor circumstances and turned out OK. The difference is family or some approximation thereof. My grandmother grew up in an orphanage and turned out fine.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:33 am
Well, we are sitting outside the seller’s attorney’s office waiting to close. Should start in about 15 minutes. Who would have thought that the entire group of people that sign off on CO’s in our area would be on vacation… Whether or not we close depends on whether they were able to find the last person on vacation who is reportedly hanging around town. Otherwise we’ll have to wait until after xmas. Yuk.
BH
December 21st, 2007 at 11:34 am
OT: The Commerce Dept actually said this today:
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — U.S. consumers spent more than they earned in November, driving the personal savings rate negative for the first time in 15 months but giving a much-needed boost to a sagging economy, the Commerce Department reported Friday.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:35 am
HEHEHE 124
Sometimes I think it might just be easier to give in and go back!
December 21st, 2007 at 11:36 am
Ann & Pre,
Unless you live is some crooked @ss town like Hoboken or Patterson where the local bd of ed is just another branch of crooked government out to give relatives and cronies no-show jobs and no-bid contracts. Hoboken is finally shaping up but that was like pulling teeth.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:36 am
Jamey (84)-
Big diff between Realtors and the education biz. Just to note a few:
- No Realtors’ union. It’s an eat-what-you-kill business. BTW…please don’t waste bandwidth by trying to tell me NAR is a union. Real unions help their members.
- No tenure for Realtors, either. See above.
- Realtors compete. In education, who competes?
I’ll admit I should temper my remarks, but all too often, the exceptions one encounters in education are the exceptions that prove the rule.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:37 am
From CNN/Money:
Pain Street USA: ‘08 housing outlook
The United States is deep in its worst housing slump since the Great Depression, and according to a new report, it’s not going to get better any time soon.
In a new survey, Moody’s Economy.com says many metro areas will record losses of 20 percent or more during the downturn, with the national median price for single-family homes dropping 13 percent through early 2009. Factoring in discount offers from sellers, the actual price decline would be well over 15 percent.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:41 am
RE: Catholic Schools
Thanks for the insights. Growing up, we were too poor to afford Catholic School, but as an Undesirable Public Student, I got the guilt in extra heapings down in the basement after the 9 o’clock mass.
My sister’s daughter attended one full of families that were just shy of being able to afford Real Private School. They were the vicious hen-peckers. If your daughter is chunky or you drive a ‘94 Buick, do your kid a favor and don’t send her to a Catholic School with a wanna-be-rich crowd.
Our dilemma is now continuing to send our daughter to Catholic school, or moving into a better school system. She’s the Female Fonzie among Richie Cunninghams. The teacher recently told me that her behavior has improved, and she is now fitting in much better with the other students (Scary, isn’t it?).
Last week I asked her why her jumper always smells from top to bottom of lead pencil shavings and I have to send in a box of 30 pencils every week.
She told me she spends a lot of time sharpening pencils. What is that?
December 21st, 2007 at 11:48 am
129 HEHEHE says
“Unless you live is some crooked @ss town like Hoboken or Patterson where the local bd of ed is just another branch of crooked government out to give relatives and cronies no-show jobs and no-bid contracts. Hoboken is finally shaping up but that was like pulling teeth.”
I don’t think you need to go to Paterson for that. Plenty of “better” towns with totally uses BoEs. Amateur politicians who use it as a way to try to try to break into the pol gig. The only thing that saves the “better” towns are that the families are more on track. Propping the whole charade up.
December 21st, 2007 at 11:53 am
Kettle1 said:
“For those stuck in inner city schools, I believe that many families would be helped. There are always some families that are motivated, even in the poorest communities. Give them a chance to pick their school.”
———————————————-
I lived in Jersey City for about five years during the late 90s. At the time, the school system graduation rate was between 20 and 30%. Although ‘Head Start’ was available to any parent who wanted to put their prekindergarten child in it, less than 5% took advantage of the program. I remember talking to my neighbor about the wonderful opportunity that this offered for their youngest child. Unfortunately, the uneducated parent could only respond by saying that he wasn’t educated and is doing just fine, so his son doesn’t need the education neither. Of course, his definition of doing so well was collecting welfare and living in section 8 housing. A year later, that toddler burnt their brownstone down when he lit a mattress on fire when playing with matches. The JC fire department destroyed the walls of my apartment in their effort to extinguish the fire next door. I moved out about 2 weeks later.
Surprisingly, I drove by about a year later and they were back in their brownstone as if nothing at all had happened. Of course their toddler was still not in school, which is the modus operandi of the youth of Jersey City.
This is a single example of why the voucher program will not work. It is all about the environment in which the child is raised. The parents don’t care about their children’s education so the vouchers will only serve to help the wealthy pay for their children’s private school tuition. This will hurt many middle-of-the-road schools as more talented students will abandon the public schools for the private prep schools as they will now become more affordable. Many voucher advocates say that this competition will increase the quality of the public school as they will need to if they want to continue to exist. I might agree with this argument if someone pointed out a single example of a public entity that ever improved when faced with competition from a private entity. Every time I have witnessed such an attempt, the public entity was allowed to continue as our elected officials never reduce spending or cut heads. We simply end up with what will be another tax cut for the wealthy paid for by the sheeples.
The voucher money would be better spent requiring welfare recipients to attend vocational schools.
December 21st, 2007 at 12:09 pm
From Minyanville re the coming commercial RE collapse:
http://www.minyanville.com/articles/housing-subprime-real-estate/index/a/15299
“Here’s what we know about what happened in commercial real estate: Lending standards fell, starkly. Or as I prefer to see it, they were thrown out of the 60th-floor window of that gleaming office tower in downtown Atlanta/Phoenix/New York/San Francisco/insert your city here. The gap between the cost of debt servicing and the cash actually being generated by the buildings narrowed. What’s more, it used to be that banks made loans for no more than 80 percent of the value of a property to ensure a healthy cushion of protection, but by the early part of 2007, loans were sometimes made for 120 percent of a property’s value. Who would be so crazy as to lend more than a property is worth? Anyone who believes in perpetual-motion machines—that is, that rents and underlying property values must always go up.”
December 21st, 2007 at 12:12 pm
I have a question about voucher proposals. Would a private school that accepts vouchers have to accept them from every student who presents one, even one from a poor academic or social background?
If not, I can’t see how vouchers will change anything in many places, where the private schools cherry pick athletes and scholars from the public schools and the only students that don’t have these qualifications that can get admitted are legacies.
December 21st, 2007 at 12:13 pm
#132 Pat: I agree with much that you say regarding Catholic Schools.
For many today especially on th HS end, going to Catholic Schools is a status symbol. And I laugh,as I am a prduct of Catholic schools.
Many now refer to it as private school, hey guys we are talking Catholic School, not Horace Mann.
I do like the ability they have to expel problem students, and believe public schools should have that same ability.
People need to understand that education is a privledge, not a right.
As far as the academic standards Catholic vs Public, I cannot say from what I know that the Catholic schools are better, they have a very small % of teachers with Masters and PHD’s not that necesarily proves any thing.
The other thing I find odd, is that the Catholic HS’s do not publish their SAT scores.
One final note I was at a social gathering a few years back we were the only ones whose children attended public school.
Anyhow to make a long story short, the adults there engaged in some incredibly vicious and mean gossip about other parents and kids that attended the school. So much for kinder and gentler.
And finally drugs and alcohol are also big problems in Catholic HS’s.
December 21st, 2007 at 12:16 pm
John: I didn’t know about the go-cart track - where is it, I assume you’re referring to something other than 14 yr old persian kids drag racing BMWs on Brokaw; also, Valet parking, what on earth are you talking about?
December 21st, 2007 at 12:18 pm
skep-tic - I share your concern about vouchers - everyone would want their kids in the “top” schools which would just pick the top kids and the poorer or less promising kids would still end up in the hole.
I think it is less about offering parents choice and instead lets the popular schools take off the cream.
On another note - I read about a program in an inner city school where they actually focussed on the parents. They actually graded them on their parenting, ran classes to help them know how to help their kids with their homework and so on.
By all accounts it was a roaring success. The school finally realized that kids with parents who were not academic and who had failed at school were hardly in a position to help their kids, even if they wanted to - so they went to the problem at the source.
December 21st, 2007 at 12:18 pm
3b 137
Catholic schools are a status symbol? Ha. I find it amusing when people try to lump non-competitive (meaning everyone gets in) Catholic schools with competitive private schools.
Education is a privilege, not a right? So you don’t think that children in this country have a right to education?
December 21st, 2007 at 12:18 pm
OT- I’ve overpent
Bought lots of stuff that I can’t pay for now.
Thought these purchases were a “good buy”
Now my account is overdrawn by a few million (maybe billion, I’m not sure).
Any cash donations to my personal bank account by a foreign investment fund is much appreciated.
In exchange, you may have a 8% stake of my soul.
P.S. I promise to be a smarter shopper next year.
December 21st, 2007 at 12:24 pm
Everyone gets in but everyone can’t stay. That is why Catholic schools are good as they can boot the troublemakes and have parents that are involved. Plus come 7/8 grade if you don’t make the cut you can’t get into a good Catholic HS. My nephew goofed off in 7 grade catholic school and blew his chance of getting into Chaminade HS and now he is hanging out with the pot heads in public HS.
A private school that only excepts students that are already smart, wow now that is a joke job. Even better they can take credit for their students being smart when they are already smart. Maybe I could open an auto repair shop and only work on cars that are in perfect condition.
Ann Says:
December 21st, 2007 at 12:18 pm
3b 137
Catholic schools are a status symbol? Ha. I find it amusing when people try to lump non-competitive (meaning everyone gets in) Catholic schools with competitive private schools.
Education is a privilege, not a right? So you don’t think that children in this country have a right to education?
December 21st, 2007 at 12:24 pm
John, she’s 6 and IS in Catholic School, and the teacher is controlling her behavior by having her stand and stand and sharpen pencils all day in the front of the room until there is nothing left of the pencil.
Thanks for your weird humor, though. I also like the air conditioning unit story.
December 21st, 2007 at 12:30 pm
Regarding “Edumacation”:
1). If you can’t bring kids to good schools, bring the good schools to the kids. What do you think of placing teachers in a rotational system? We all know that it’s the teachers that make a good school, correct? So why don’t we rotate the good teachers to under performing schools, bring the bad ones to good schools to learn how it’s supposed to be done? It may even have a positive psychological impact on the educators at the same time.
2). Send the parents to school too. Many sperm donors and recipients are just that - not parents - therefore teach these givers and takers how to handle their kids by supporting them throughout the educational process.
December 21st, 2007 at 12:41 pm
John 142 Good point. Catholic schools can kick kids out, which is good for the other kids.
Pat 143
Not to be too blunt, but tell me you are joking, please. What is your daughter doing that is causing her teachers to make her sharpen pencils all day? No matter what your daughter is doing, there has to be more effective way to guide her behavior.
December 21st, 2007 at 12:41 pm
#13 BC Bob and #6 Pat….how about adding “normalizing” to the list. There was an add in our local paper last week. A real estate agent was having a seminar for brokers to educate them on how to work in a “normalizing” market! too funny
December 21st, 2007 at 12:41 pm
When I posted about people getting involved with their school system earlier today, I fully expected to check in later and read that you all had been going to meetings and working to change what you didn’t like. But instead you’re talking about vouchers and complaining (whining) that sending your kids to private schools will cost you double.
Okay. You want vouchers? That’ll take a ton of work. You want to overhaul the education system so it resembles Finland? That’s going to take work, too. But none of you are going to do it, are you? You’re just going to whine. (Note to Ann, if you think voting out a school board is a long drawn-out process, instituting vouchers and totally revamping the school system would take even longer.)
Hey—here’s an idea. Why don’t you all run for the Board of Ed in your respective towns?
Ann, I’m sorry if this sounds harsh, but you’re quite an elitist, aren’t you? In one of your posts you practically imply that only kids with college-educated parents will get ahead. You’re simply wrong. As I said, only one of parents graduated high school; neither went to college. My father worked in a factory for his entire life. Nevertheless, I was a National Merit Scholar, placed out of several college semesters with AP tests, graduated college summa cum laude and went on to graduate school. My brother is an attorney.
To all of you: If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
December 21st, 2007 at 12:51 pm
007
REO = bank-owned real estate.
From the Countrywide REO site:
Looking for a bargain on a home?
A Countrywide owned property (lender-owned), also sometimes referred to as a REO (real estate owned) home or property is often a way to get a good deal on a home or an investment property. You can use the tool below to search for Countrywide owned properties in your area.
http://