Tue 13 May 2008
From CEOs for Cities:
Driven to the Brink (PDF)
How the Gas Price Spike Popped the Housing Bubble and Devalued the Suburbs
The collapse of America’s housing bubble—and its reverberations in financial markets—has obscured a tectonic shift in housing demand. Although housing prices are in decline almost everywhere, price declines are generally far more severe in far-flung suburbs and in metropolitan areas with weak close-in neighborhoods. The reason for this shift is rooted in the dramatic increase in gas prices over the past five years. Housing in cities and neighborhoods that require lengthy commutes and provide few transportation alternatives to the private vehicle are falling in value more precipitously than in more central, compact and accessible places.
From the Wall Street Journal:
As Gas Prices Spike, Suburban Home Prices Fall
Rising gasoline prices have affected much of American life –- from the cars we drive to the vacations we take. A new study, however, indicates that increasing gas prices may have the strongest impact closer to home — the houses we choose to live in.
In a report entitled “Driven to the Brink: How the Gas Price Spike Popped the Housing Bubble and Devalued the Suburbs,” released this month by CEOs for Cities, economist Joe Cortright contends that while predatory lending and subprime mortgages had a hand in today’s housing crisis, higher gas prices played a major role –- and will have a much longer-lasting impact on U.S. consumers’ home-buying preferences.
“The rise in gas prices from less than $1.10 in early 2002 to more than $3 today has dealt a major blow to consumer purchasing power and weighs most heavily on those metropolitan areas and those suburbs where people have to drive the farthest,” Mr. Cortright notes in the report.
Higher gas prices negatively impact housing prices by sapping home buyers’ budgets and leaving less to spend on housing, and by making consumers less apt to bid more for homes in less centrally located suburbs, he explains.
The study notes that while initiatives by states and the federal government to ease the housing market’s woes will have some positive effect on the real-estate market in the months ahead, higher fuel costs will permanently impact the suburban landscape as more home buyers choose to reside in closer-in locations that offer shorter commutes and mass transit.
He point out that in metropolitan areas like Chicago, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, Portland and Tampa, home prices have fallen more in farther-flung ZIP codes than in close-in neighborhoods. For instance, in Chicago, while housing prices have remained stable in close-in neighborhoods within three miles of the city’s central business district over the past 12 months, home prices have fallen 4% in “distant” neighborhoods 13 miles from the central business district. And in Los Angeles, while home prices have dropped 6% in close-in neighborhoods, they have decreased 10% in distant neighborhoods, according to the report.
May 13th, 2008 at 5:52 am
From Bloomberg:
Libor Poised for Shake-Up as Credibility Is Doubted
The benchmark interest rate for $62 trillion of credit derivatives and mortgages for 6 million U.S. homeowners faces its biggest shakeup in a decade as lawmakers question if banks are understating borrowing costs.
For the first time since 1998, the British Bankers’ Association is considering changing the way it sets the London interbank offered rate, according to Chief Executive Officer Angela Knight, who is scheduled to appear before a parliamentary committee in London today. “We’ve put Libor under review,” Knight said in an interview. While she declined to discuss specifics, the BBA will announce changes May 30, she said.
The BBA, an unregulated London-based trade group, sets Libor by polling 16 banks each day on the rates they pay for loans in dollars, British pounds, euros and eight other currencies. The association is under pressure to show the rates are reliable following complaints by investors that financial institutions weren’t telling the truth after the collapse of subprime mortgages nine months ago contaminated credit markets and drove up borrowing costs.
While the BBA set the one-month dollar Libor rate at 2.72 percent on April 7, the Federal Reserve said banks paid 2.82 percent for secured loans later that day. Secured loans typically yield less than unsecured debt.
“The Libor numbers that banks reported to the BBA were a lie,” said Tim Bond, head of global asset allocation at Barclays Capital in London. “They had been all the way along. The BBA has been trying to investigate them and that’s why banks have started to report the right numbers.”
May 13th, 2008 at 5:58 am
From Bloomberg:
London Suffers Most Widespread House-Price Declines Since 1994
London’s property market had the most widespread price declines in at least 14 years last month as the slump in financial services deepened and banks curbed lending, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors said.
The number of residential property agents and surveyors saying prices fell in the capital exceeded those reporting gains by 94 percentage points in April, the lowest since records began in 1994, the group said today. The reading for the whole country fell to minus 95.1, the least since the series began in 1978.
The U.K. capital has “caught up with the rest of the country,” Simon Rubinsohn, chief economist at the London-based surveyors’ group, said in an interview on Bloomberg Television. “There has been a sea change, and it’s not wholly surprising given the impact of the financial-services industry.”
May 13th, 2008 at 6:00 am
From MarketWatch:
Toll Brothers second-quarter home building revenues fall 30%
Toll Brothers Inc. said Tuesday second-quarter home-building revenues fell 30% to $817.9 million. “The just-completed spring selling season was quite weak,” Chairman and CEO Robert Toll said in a statement. Toll Brothers said it’s looking to use its $2.5 billion of available capital to make acquisitions that fit its criteria of “high-end communities at bargain prices,” but said it hasn’t seen any yet.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:13 am
Maybe petroleum prices burst the Tulip Bubble also a few centuries ago in Holland ?
May 13th, 2008 at 6:21 am
From the Record:
N.J. renters mostly safe from foreclosure
As a growing number of homeowners struggle with foreclosure, tenants might wonder what America’s real estate crisis means to them.
While nationwide, according to the National Low Income Housing Coalition, millions of homeowners and renters are in jeopardy of losing their homes, it’s a different story in New Jersey.
Sure, Garden State tenants could be served with a foreclosure notice just like a homeowner, but seldom do they have to pack their bags, said Connie Pascale, senior attorney at Legal Services of New Jersey (LSNJ).
In fact, he said, leaving good rental housing and the protection of the state’s Anti-Eviction Act is probably the last thing that tenants want to do.
“This is an issue well set in the law. The tenants have a right to stay,” Pascale said, describing New Jersey’s landlord/tenant laws as among the best in the nation and a victory for the 50,000-member New Jersey Tenants Organization.
“In terms of eviction, landlords can only evict for good cause,” Pascale advised — and foreclosure does not constitute good cause.
Decades ago, foreclosure could uproot both homeowner and tenant because it was seen as an exception to New Jersey’s Anti-Eviction Act of 1975.
Then in 1986, Pascale said, “The state Legislature made it clear they want to protect tenants.” Legislators put “successors in interest” — like mortgage companies — in the same shoes as landlords in having to protect tenants from foreclosure, he said.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:26 am
Hudson County Rules Apply!
Vote early, vote often (but only vote once a day)!
We’re proud to announce the FHA Mortgage Center.com Best Blogs Contest. Our goal is to highlight the best real estate related blogs on the web.
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http://www.fhamortgagecenter.com/contest/view.php?id=73
May 13th, 2008 at 6:29 am
From Bloomberg:
Toll Brothers Revenue Drops as Housing Slump Persists
Toll Brothers Inc., the largest U.S. luxury homebuilder, reported its eighth consecutive quarterly decline in revenue as demand for new homes tumbled.
Homebuilding revenue fell to $818 million in the fiscal second quarter from $1.17 billion a year earlier, the Horsham, Pennsylvania- based company said today in a statement. That beat the average estimate of $741 million from 11 analysts surveyed by Bloomberg.
New-home sales in the U.S. dropped in March to the lowest in almost 17 years as foreclosures reached a record and banks curtailed lending. Toll was also hurt by a slump in existing-home sales, which prevented some potential customers from trading up to new properties.
“The lack of demand right now is a huge challenge,” Dave Crossman, an analyst at Kirr Marbach & Co. in Columbus, Indiana, said before the results were issued. “They’re hunkering down, raising liquidity, biding their time until demand returns.”
…
The lower sales prices were partly due to fewer sales in more expensive markets such as California and Manhattan, Toll said.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:13 am
Just voted grim. 9 to 1 lead right now.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:19 am
Pianalto Says Inflation Is `Key Risk’ to Outlook (Update1)
By Anthony Massucci and Simon Kennedy
May 13 (Bloomberg) — Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland President Sandra Pianalto said prices are rising faster than she’d like and inflation is a “key risk” to the economic outlook.
While interest-rate cuts since September are “compatible with a low and stable inflation rate,” prices are rising “somewhat faster than I would prefer,” Pianalto said in a speech in Paris today. “Inflation presents a key risk to my outlook.”
May 13th, 2008 at 7:23 am
Can this article please explain why I’m seeing asking prices on train lines in Morris and Union with 15% and more yoy drops? Some of the houses are supposedly walking distance to the station with a sub 40 minute ride to Manhattan.
Also if someone can support a 600k mtg and live in Basking Ridge does it really matter to them if gas is $2.69 or $4.00? Even if they use 20 gallons a week it’s only another $25 a week. I doubt an extra $20 or $25 a week in gas prices is the reason I’m seeing 15% drops in houses and over 20% in townhouses in dear BR.
I think the real reason is lenders have taking away the punch bowl and are now require proof of income and a down payment.
That is so last century.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:26 am
Anyone getting an “HTTP 500 Internal Server Error” when they try to post a comment?
May 13th, 2008 at 7:38 am
“Gas Price Spike Popped the Housing Bubble and Devalued the Suburbs”
what a load of crap. Some sounds like they are just trying to pass blame.
SAS
May 13th, 2008 at 7:44 am
Are people flocking to WalMart cause it cheap in order to save cash?
wouldn’t catch me in a Red China WalMart.
“Wal-Mart profit rises 6.9 pct, beats Street view”
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080513/earns_wal_mart.html
SAS
May 13th, 2008 at 7:52 am
-maybe those higher food prices isn’t such a bad thing afterall!
“U.S. obesity rates alarmingly high”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080512/hl_nm/us_obesity_dc;_ylt=ApWhM0KKnMtGxWZ5ty0hzQ6s0NUE
SAS
May 13th, 2008 at 7:54 am
“Gas prices popped the home price bubble?”
No.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:57 am
Gas prices may be a contributing factor to why housing prices outside of cities won’t be getting up off the mat anytime soon, but are not the reason the bubble burst.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:03 am
“London’s property market had the most widespread price declines in at least 14 years last month as the slump in financial services deepened and banks curbed lending, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors said.”
Thank goodness NYC is immune, unlike London, because it is America’s financial capital, unlike London.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:05 am
“Toll Brothers said it’s looking to use its $2.5 billion of available capital to make acquisitions that fit its criteria of “high-end communities at bargain prices,” but said it hasn’t seen any yet.”
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
May 13th, 2008 at 8:08 am
“Oil futures are now traded in the market, and in recent years, there have been massive influx of new money there. So, it is not only supply/demand, but speculative investors buying long-term oil futures (contracts). Classic definition of bubble.”
Jamil,
I didn’t distort anything that you said.
Do you think the physical market also realizes that crude is now traded in the market? If the speculators are driving the price to unrealistic/irrational prices why don’t hedgers stick it to them? Isn’t the market ultimately controlled by the commercials? Of course, I am assuming that hedgers understand that crude is now traded in the market?
Ron Bloomberg now batting.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:13 am
Anyone getting an “HTTP 500 Internal Server Error” when they try to post a comment?
JB,
I get it all the time. Also, it is not saving my name and email address. I have to type this every time I post.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:15 am
I am having a hard time believing that gas prices are to blame. I easily spend about 60 dollars a week in gas, up from 44 dollars 2 months ago. It sucks that I am paying an average 64 dollars a month but I don’t think it is a lot to cause home prices to pop. It figures that people like to blame others when they should blame themselves for greed and the ones that fueled the greed.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:15 am
“Goldman Said Trying To Hush-Up Further Layoffs”
http://news.hereisthecity.com/news/business_news/7853.cntns
May 13th, 2008 at 8:16 am
Damn, I was hoping it was just me.
Must be a problem with the upgrade I did last night.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:19 am
“Kenneth C. Griffin, who runs one of the biggest and most successful hedge fund firms, has a blunt assessment: “We, as an industry, dropped the ball.”
“He is anxious about high-priced finance jobs moving abroad. And he is particularly galled with regulators in Washington who have overseen what he calls “the great depression on Wall Street.”
“Walk across any of the trading floors — they are full of 29-year-old kids,” he said. “The capital markets of America are controlled by a bunch of right-out-of-business-school young guys who haven’t really seen that much. You have a real lack of wisdom.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/business/13sorkin.html?_r=2&sq=hedge%20funds&st=nyt&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&scp=2&adxnnlx=1210680968-GQEQjtKzeRDqg3u+dlZB4Q
May 13th, 2008 at 8:21 am
test
May 13th, 2008 at 8:24 am
xyz
May 13th, 2008 at 8:24 am
Bernanke speaking now on CNBC.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:37 am
grim
have had error 500 and the reseting of user name and e-mail since i saw that new main page done up in blue yesterday
May 13th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Still trying to fix this, if anyone is having problems posting, be sure to fill out all the fields (Name, Mail, Website).
May 13th, 2008 at 8:52 am
NAR’s Lawrence Yun Continues to Mislead on Housing
http://seekingalpha.com/article/76981-nar-s-lawrence-yun-continues-to-mislead-on-housing
May 13th, 2008 at 8:53 am
#9 grim: I believe Ms. Pinalto should have a discussion with Mr. Evans.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:55 am
If the oil prices are out of control because of market speculation… When is that bubble going to burst?
May 13th, 2008 at 8:55 am
#17 njpatient: Maybe our sea of wealth is better than their sea of wealth.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:56 am
“Home Prices: from the peak in 2006, home prices will decline to pre-1999 levels.”
hehe[30],
From your post.
I’ve stated that we are going back to 2001. We would retrace the preceding delusional gains. I hope I’m wrong.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:02 am
#24 Bc Bob:You have a real lack of wisdom.”
That is because you got rif of a lot of us. Those that knew our business/products inside out, and those that lived through tough times, and knew how to be humble.
Then you looked around and said gee we are paying these old timers too much we can hire 2 or 3 for the price of one. 2 or 3 wet behind the ears vs. seasoned veterans.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:02 am
2001 prices would be the best thing that could happen for any of the renters who didn’t or couldn’t buy in when the insanity was going on.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:10 am
36 dough
2001 prices would be the best thing that could happen for any of the renters who didn’t or couldn’t buy in when the insanity was going on.
yes, but also consider what is going to happen to the tax burden! local and state government have gotten fat and happy on the tax revenue from the run up. do you think they are going to accept a20% cut in their revenue? they might have to fire some of their buddies and get rid of a few no-show jobs.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:12 am
The question of whether the price of gasoline precipitated the pop of the housing bubble is clearly not answered with a simple yes or no. For the folks who are in the upper income ranges, for whom the difference of another $25 a month, or per day for that matter, commuting costs make no discernable difference in finances the increased cost of petrol will not put downward pressure on housing costs. That said, there are an awful lot of folks who moved to outlying suburbs in order to find cheaper housing because they just could not afford close-in housing prices. Inasmuch as it seems that many of these folks are living at the edge economically, even in an era of $ 1.50/gal gas, this spike in gas prices cannot help but reduce the desirability of the outer ‘burbs. It is one thing to make a 100-200 mile round trip commute when the cost of gas is more than offset by the reduction in housing costs. But, when fuel prices go up and one is faced with a hellish commute one no doubt begins to reconsider whether it is worth buying so far out. Less demand, lower prices.
A bright guy might form an LLP for building middle-class rental housing in some of the inner-ring ‘burbs, assuming the partnership could get the towns to allow high-rise developments.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:14 am
37 Kettle:
I understand that. Maybe what happend in mission Vallejo will start to happen everywhere that the pigs have gotten too fat.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:14 am
Grim,
After my post the name and mail boxes reset to blank and then I got a 404 error.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:15 am
Anyone having problems posting:
Clear your cookies and log in again, should be resolved now.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:17 am
36 dough
as someone said yesterday. If we go back to 99-01 prices, then we are likely to see property tax bills costing as much or more then many p eoples house note.
We should all be aware that if housing does go to 99-01 prices (and even if it stops short of that) a large percentage of the boomers retirement savings are wiped out (that wonderful investment vehicle called realestate). this is going to have huge consequences over the next decade as we will either have the choice of the letting our elderly wither away scraping by on alpo and friskies or have the government bolster SS/medicare/medicaid in order to make up the difference.
The boomers have a large enough population in numbers alone for force through a “senior” bailout package. say hello to another 10 trillion in borrowed money
May 13th, 2008 at 9:20 am
This can’t be good -
“Survey: 1 in 10 boomers borrowing for everyday expenses”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080513/ap_on_bi_ge/economy_survey
NEW YORK - The economic downturn is hitting roughly one in 10 middle-aged and older Americans especially hard, compelling them to borrow money for everyday living expenses and to seek help from family, friends or charities, according to a survey released Tuesday by the AARP.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:20 am
After my post the name and mail boxes reset to blank and then I got a 404 error.
Let me know if this is still happening.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:22 am
shore,
gas prices are not the cause of the housing bubble burst. as you pointed out people shifted to the far out burbs in order to escape astronomical housing prices. The glut of cheap money hot of greenspans press is the cause. the housing bubble was essentially a giant ponzi scheme and like any ponzi scheme once you run out of idiots the pyramid collapses.
if people were still paying no more then 20% of their income for housing, then the average american would be able to absorb the higher gas prices without much distress.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:22 am
Grim: See if you want to apply for this Google pilot program,
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1739429,00.html?imw=Y
May 13th, 2008 at 9:25 am
# 45 Agreed.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:26 am
Grim
“Clear your cookies” it sounds like a more urbane form of “toss your cookies.”
May 13th, 2008 at 9:28 am
BC,
I thought 1999 was a bit much of a drop too but given most of the run-up really happened between 2001-2005 it probably isn’t that much of a difference.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:29 am
43 gl
you may consider beefing up your portfolio with some of these companies ( any finance advice is tongue in cheek only)
The Meow Mix Company
American Nutrition, Inc.
Breeder’s Choice Pet Foods, Inc.
The Hartz Mountain Corporation
Old Mother Hubbard, Inc.
Hill’s Pet Nutrition, Inc.
United Pet Group, Inc.
The Iams Company
Land O’Lakes Purina Feed LLC
May 13th, 2008 at 9:29 am
# 45
This is not unlike the situation with respect to people going bankrupt. So many say,it happened because of the medical bill, or the job loss, yadda yadda, when, in fact, it was the overspending BEFORE the medical bill or job loss that set the stage. The medical bill or job loss is just the last straw.
When one thinks about it, even if people in the outer ring ‘burbs had gas prices increase $400 a month, if that $400 pushes one over the edge, one had been dancing awfully close to it in the first place.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:30 am
Boxes no longer clearing after a post.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Gas Prices? Another Silver Bullet cause/cure. Oh good. So if gas goes down to $1.99, all will be solved. Idiot.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Oh, I agree Kettle. There is a bunch of factors that are tied to the rediculous prices that are going to make a lot of people feel some fallout from this mess. Those are the same people that bet on the speculation and were on the positive site of the bet until the bubble started to deflate.
SSI is screwed regardless and there is going ot be a boomber bailout regardless. There aren’t enough of us (GenX GenY) to handle the load.
Increase the amount of teat sucking from Govt handouts and WE (those who don’t qualify for any of it or won’t take it) are in for the short end of the stick… again.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:37 am
# 42 ” this is going to have huge consequences over the next decade as we will either have the choice of the letting our elderly wither away scraping by on alpo and friskies or have the government bolster SS/medicare/medicaid in order to make up the difference.”
Or most people will have to reassess what a retirement home and retirement living is. Instead of golf 3 times a week and living in a 1,200-3,000 sq. ft. open-floor-plan sfh someplace, and trips here and there, and a new car every 3 years, it may become living in a high-rise, in 800 sq. ft. apartment, using mass transit for most travel. Our current view of retirement living is largely a creation of the ’60s and ’70s and was only possible because of our unquestioned economic dominance after WWII. Times have changed and we are not the only dog on the block anymore. With changed circumstances may need to come changed expectations. No one should have to eat friskies or shiver in the night. That said, leaving a life of luxurious leisure for 40 years after leaving the workforce may not be an option except for the upper 3-5% of retirees.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Grim - re 65 Elston - did a quick look online in the Monmouth County tax database. I’m surprised the improvement portion of the assessment was so high, given the condition that you’re reporting. They may have denied ASI access for an inspection, and gotten penalized for that.
When I saw the owner of record though, I had to laugh. The wife is a big flower child, hippy dippy doula type and she and her husband were big proponents of home birthing, so perhaps the closet shower was intentional and some type of birthing room.
Their son also got arrested last year for trespassing while illegally skateboarding. Mom and Dad then went on a royal crusade to get tax strapped Montclair to build a skate park.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:40 am
On topic of how far down the house prices will go (i.e. 99, 01, 03 etc…). Here are some important factors to consider.
1. Employment: It seems FSI is going to lead this. It would be great if someone can define a model for NJ area. Additionally NJ is loosing its grip on Big Pharma. Is any industry is looking at NJ?
2. Income: Anecdotally, I am seeing lot of high paying jobs are being replaced by low paying ones. That does not bear well for housing.
3. Demographics: Clearly on this topic Boomers are not going to retire in NJ due to higher property taxes. In fact even Exburbs don’t seem to be good choice as I see taxes there are much higher due to lack of Commercial taxes. Some would move to downtown areas, but I think majority can’t give up suburban life style easily for condo.
4. Supply of New Housing: The psychological impact of they are not making more land anymore, had to do lot with housing boom. The actual numbers are saying new housing has kept pace with population growth at least. But I think more important issue here is obligations towns have w.r.t. Mt. Laurel decisions mandated by COAH. With new number of 115000 affordable homes, you are looking at at least 300K to 400K new homes in next 10 to 15 years. A huge increase to say the least.
5. Inflation: I think most agree we are going into higher inflation mode due to Oil and commodity prices. I think Chinese imports will get expensive as time goes by, affective consumer spending.
With so many negatives, how do you define floor on home prices? To all finance wizards, is it possible to model all other parameters along with home prices and see co-relation?
Now I am wondering, is there any positive news that I am missing.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Gas prices popped the home price bubble?
Video killed the radio star.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:41 am
# 43
From the article: “While the survey doesn’t show large numbers of people making radical changes — taking second jobs or moving to a smaller home — it did find that more than one-quarter of those surveyed are having trouble paying their mortgage or rent.
Compared with older people, a greater percentage of younger baby boomers, those 45 to 54, said they were cutting back on medications, prematurely withdrawing retirement funds and postponing paying bills.
“For the younger boomers, it’s been an especially rude wake-up call,” said Jim Dau, a spokesman for the AARP, a nonprofit that advocates Americans 50 and older.”
Cutting back on medication instead of moving to a less expensive home? WTF? Are people THAT concerned with image?
May 13th, 2008 at 9:43 am
patient (17)-
“Thank goodness NYC is immune, unlike London, because it is America’s financial capital, unlike London.”
I thought London was the financial capital of the US. :)
May 13th, 2008 at 9:43 am
51 shore
i agree with one important exception. You idea holds for people who make the median income or higher. put if you remember the chart i posted the other day, $4.50 gas is approx 40% of a families gross income if they are in the bottom 20% of family earners. ( 20% of american families make 25K/yr or less).
current gas prices can be crippling to these families
May 13th, 2008 at 9:44 am
BC (19)-
I’m getting the feeling you may be talking to a wall there.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Grim - I was having a problem getting it to “refresh” and add new posts - cleared up now… Cindy
May 13th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Ket (42) - Senior bailout package is troubling, but the junior bailout package, coupled with future energy prices will cause unimaginable pain, in many forms.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:48 am
I agree with BC to some extent. ‘99 prices are already here in some areas of NNJ and CNJ, if you adjust the prices for Inflation. I posted one such house (MLS 2504058) yesterday. If you adjust for inflation, prices are at least in 2000 territory.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:49 am
# 57 “Some would move to downtown areas, but I think majority can’t give up suburban life style easily for condo.”
I have always been a bit wary about condos and their associations. The whole extragovernmental rulemaking authority leaves me cold.
Now, looking at what is happening in places like South Florida where many owners have not been keeping up with maint. fees (in some instances a large majority of the owners are failing to pay) the common costs are being put on the other folks and some of them are getting $25-50,000 supplemental assessments, on top of the regular maint./association fees, I can’t imagine EVER buying a condo. An apartment is fine, and a fee-simple townhouse strikes me as fine, but a condo? No way.
I have pondered whether the townhouse close to work, and the country house for weekends might not become a model for the future, at least for the middle-middle class and upper middle class and above, instead of the post-war ‘burbs we all know so well. In essence, the burbs are a combination of the two.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:49 am
re 59
Who was it buying all the McMansions in the country?
It has been obvious for years that that was foolish.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:50 am
From MarketWatch:
U.S. import prices up 1.8% in April as petroleum gains
Prices paid for imported goods rose 1.8% in April, the Labor Department reported Tuesday, as costs for petroleum and other products gained.
Economists surveyed by MarketWatch had been looking for an increase of 1.8%.
The price for imported petroleum rose 4.4%.
The price for non-petroleum products rose 1.1% for the second consecutive month — matching the largest one-month gain for the index since these prices were first published on a monthly basis beginning in December 1988.
The prices for non-fuel imports rose 1.0% — matching the prior month’s gain — the largest one-month increase since the index was first published in December 2001.
For the 12 months through April, prices for imports gained 15.4%. The rise in import prices for March was revised to 2.9% from a prior estimate of 2.8%.
There has been concern that rising import prices and the long upward trend in food and energy commodities are keeping pressure on core inflation.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:51 am
# 61 “current gas prices can be crippling to these families”
Ket,
I do not disagree with you at all. If it appeared that I did, it was just my inartful statement of my position, which I will attribute to one-too-little cup of coffee this morning.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:51 am
From Bloomberg:
Bank of America Sees Higher Losses on Home Equity
Bank of America Corp., the second- biggest U.S. bank, widened its forecast of home-equity loan losses beyond projections offered last month, adding to evidence that more consumers are falling behind on the debts.
The bank expects losses to top 2.5 percent of its $118 billion in loans linked to home values, Liam McGee, president of the Charlotte, North Carolina-based company’s consumer and small business division, said at a conference in New York sponsored by UBS AG. The bank previously projected a loss rate of between 2 percent and 2.5 percent.
Bank of America, the nation’s largest credit-card issuer, is also seeing a “recent sharp increase” in spending on necessities by its credit-card customers. That has curbed retail, travel and entertainment purchases, McGee said. Economists and bankers have said the economy may be teetering near a recession as consumers struggle with job losses and gasoline prices topping $4 a gallon.
McGee said Bank of America expects the economy, measured by real gross domestic product, will shrink in the second quarter. The bank had $184 billion of credit card debt outstanding at the end of the first quarter and about a 20 percent market share.
May 13th, 2008 at 9:53 am
# 67
How long will it be before many McMansions are subdivided into flats and the lawns are covered with rusting junk cars and tubs turned into flower gardens?
May 13th, 2008 at 9:54 am
The current COAH requirements seem like a ‘forced” fix. what i mean is that given the number of affordable housing untis mandated and the additional construction that would accompnay the affordable housing we are going to create a bigger problem then we will fix.
We already have a glut of homes on the market and prices are falling or soon will be. So what happens when you build 140,000 units in a town at the same time that housing prices are going down and likely to stay there for5 - 10 years ( assuming we see similiar behavior to the early 90’s bubble).
who wants to bet that in 10 years a large % of this affordable housing will be slums. Not because of the income level of the people who the housing is intended for, but because there is currently a net exodus from NJ , taxes are only going up (an accelerating factor) and housing prices are going down.
This is a perfect storm waiting to happen. you have towns hurting for tax revenue due to the decrease in housing and you want to add a large # of units that will have a net effect of increasing the tax burden. this is how you kill a town
May 13th, 2008 at 9:56 am
wag,
junior bailout?
May 13th, 2008 at 9:57 am
#71 - How long did it take the upper class areas of Plainfield and Newark to go from regal mansions to run-down tenements?
May 13th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Shore (38)-
The whole “blame the bubble pop on gasoline prices” argument is an interesting one, albeit a bit narrow and simplistic.
My personal “aha” moment was Katrina and the following weeks in 2005. Up until Katrina, our sales pace was normal (read: on fire), and we couldn’t keep a property on the market for more than 20-30 days, no matter what the price.
If I remember correctly, Katrina was followed immediately by gas prices going over $3 (a killer to the Labor Day weekend) and natural gas going to $14 (a real killer to someone trying to sell a house).
All that Fall, my buyers started thinking of their purchases not in terms of “how do I beat the other buyers who want this house” but “how do I afford this house, with $3 gasoline and a killer heating bill”. Gas prices didn’t necessarily kill the housing bubble, but they caused enough pause for some degree of sanity to enter the market. At the very least, they certainly reintroduced the concepts of value and affordability back into the purchase equation.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:00 am
Ket (73) - Junior bailout, in the sense of all the current twenty somethings who have absolutely nothing saved nor, plan to save for the future.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:01 am
shore 71,
most modern mcmansions are to poorly constructed to hold up for any period of time if they are being used as flats. that is another chicken that is yet to come home and roost. Half of the new developments are so poorly constructed that in 15 - 20 years a large percentage will be crumbling.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:03 am
76 wag
welcome to Serfdom 2.0
May 13th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Shore (66)-
You’d be surprised how many condo associations in NJ are skating along the edge of ruin.
There is a beautiful complex near me (on a golf course!) that nearly lost its preferred tax status with the IRS, due to years of failure to report and mismanagement. When the new ass’n was elected, the reserves were depleted (as HOA fees had been kept unrealistically low for years), and several capital projects had to be started immediately, as the whole place was beginning to fall apart.
Now, the complex has homes with an average value in the low 300’s, property taxes over $7,500/unit and monthly fees close to $500. It also has a striking number of older folks, living on fixed incomes.
Talk about disaster…
May 13th, 2008 at 10:08 am
GAZUNDER
From:
http://www.firsthomebuyer.co.uk/th-master.php?file=gazunder.xml
# Make your initial offer for the property close to the asking price, so there will be little time wasted negotiating and the seller will feel confident with your offer.
# Surprise is part of the strategy, so don’t give any clues what you plan to do.
# Choose a reasonable discount to ask for - typically between 5% and 20%
# Request the discount within 24 hours before the exchange of contracts, the later the better. It is best to do this after the seller has already exchanged contracts on the next house he is buying, so if you can find out the date that happens then you will have the upper hand. Alternatively, gazundering 4 - 6 hours before the exchange gives the seller time to try and push down the price of the next house he is buying.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:09 am
23 grim
I was having to type in my info each time as well, though that seems to be cured. I have been (and still am) unable to re-load comments on my bberry this morning - I get a “HTTP Error 404: Not Found” message.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:11 am
From DealBreaker:
Layoff Watch 08: Round Two Of UBS Cuts
Another round of layoffs at UBS is underway today, according to a person familiar with the situation. The asset management and wealth management units are said to be on the chopping block. Investment banking is also expecting cuts.
Oddly enough, the municipal bond unit, which is reportedly set to be shuttered by UBS, has been asked to “hold on” as the bank attempts to see if there are any buyers for the business, according to our source.
UBS could not immediately be reached for comment on the job cuts.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:12 am
33 3b
I like to think it’s because New York is filled with Americans and London is filled with filthy foreigners.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:13 am
# 77
So it seems. Most of our friends and colleagues live in homes much grander than ours. That said, except for the folks who bought mansions built in the ’20s or earlier, or a few who built multi-million custom places on the water, I would not trade for any of them. The contractors seem to hire from any street corner, and the workmanship shows it — if one looks closely. But, folks get bowled over by superficial things that do not matter.
Our home will not wow very many people, it is a simple 3,300 ft. sq. CHC on less than an acre. Still, we own it outright, and, unlike many folks who are scrimping to make too-large payments, the furnishings (also paid for) are of high quality and will last a lifetime.
This focus on flash and image cannot pass fast enough for me. Quality has always been key, and I trust it will again come into fashion.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:13 am
dblko (80)-
This is what you’d expect from a country that owned the world, lost it and became a second-rate s*cialist welfare sinkhole.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Drat. #85 moderated.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:14 am
I have been (and still am) unable to re-load comments on my bberry this morning - I get a “HTTP Error 404: Not Found” message.
Are you using the built-in browser? I’m not having a problem on my BB8830. Any other BB users having issues?
May 13th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Shore (84)-
“This focus on flash and image cannot pass fast enough for me.”
Shore, when has it ever been any different here? I’m 48, and I’ve never known it any other way.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Screw the boomers.
In the 60’s they wanted free love, in the 80’s they wanted free money, in the 00’s they want free retirement.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:16 am
# 79 Yeesh. That is a great example of why the whole condo concept bothers me.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:17 am
38 shore
Given that housing prices started collapsing long before there was an appreciable reduction in other types of consumer spending, I’m gonna have to disagree.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:18 am
What the heck are you people talking about gas prices will cripple low income or lower middle income people. First of all it is the mcmansion crowd who bought a 5K sq ft oil heated house out in the sticks and leased two SUVS that require a dual income to support. Those fools paying to heat or cool a 5k square foot house and fed those SUVs on those long trips to everywhere will suffer. Plus energy prices have also driven up the electricity for that monster house.
In my neighborhood the lower income crowd lives in little capes, ranches, condos or apts. and drive plain old toyotas or taurus to their nearby crappy jobs. In the five boros and JC/Hoboken the people rent and don’t even pay for heat or own a car.
The overextended trade up house crowd with two incomes where both husband and wife drive to work are absolutely being killed by $4 gas.
People like me who take the train to work and never had time to trade up and is heating a small house even $6 dollar gas is not that big a deal. Maybe this summer I will buy more local grown fruits and veggies and skip the pineapples from Hawaii and wine from France. I can do just fine with a nice Pindar, NJ Milk and a nice NY cortland apple.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:18 am
# 85
Is that Rome? France? The British Empire? Or some other empire whose citizens are failing to do the things necessary to maintain its status?
May 13th, 2008 at 10:20 am
From NJBIZ:
Spiraling Costs Give Restaurants Indigestion
Soaring food prices are creating distress for restaurant owners across New Jersey who face a tough choice: hike menu prices and risk losing customers, or swallow the costs at the expense of profits.
For now at least, many say they’re absorbing the increases and hoping to hang on until the economy improves.
“My cost for rice alone has gone up 15 percent in recent months,” says Sneh Mehtani, the 60-year-old owner of nine eating and drinking establishments in New Jersey. She wants to raise her menu prices to cover the increased costs, but fears the impact on business at a time when fewer people are dining out.
“We usually serve [a total] of about 300 meals on a Saturday night, but recently we’re down to about 160 to 200,” says Mehtani, whose properties include the Moghul Indian restaurant in Morristown and Ming, a Chinese restaurant in Edison.
“With the economy in bad shape, people want to spend $5 on a meal, not $25, so this would be a bad time to increase our menu prices. But at some point I’ll have to.”
Rising costs and an apparent drop in customer traffic have driven one popular Morristown restaurant out of business, says Helene Elbaum, a property manager with Newmark Associates in Whippany.
“The Ora restaurant closed down in December, right before the holidays,” says Elbaum, who manages the property. Ora, which served continental cuisine, had received praise from The New York Times.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:20 am
42 kettle
property taxes will be raised to wherever they need to be raised in order to produce X revenue in constant dollars. What percentage of property value that is is dependent on how far prices fall, but it doesn’t change the dollar amount that people will be paying for a given plot. For that reason, I don’t see any issue, from a tax perspective, with prices falling to 1999 levels.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:21 am
43 gl
“Survey: 1 in 10 boomers borrowing for everyday expenses”
Blast. Does that mean we can’t blame only pretorius’s generation?
May 13th, 2008 at 10:21 am
# 89 It sounds like a slogan for a tee shirt or a button.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Re: Our home will not wow very many people, it is a simple 3,300 ft. sq. CHC on less than an acre.
You basically just described a 3 million dollar home in Manhasset Long Island and you call it modest.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:23 am
NJ patient 96,
i take offense to that!
May 13th, 2008 at 10:24 am
What the heck is it with rice? It is just a bunch of carbs! Potatos did not go up in price so why the heck don’t they just eat potatos.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:26 am
91
It was not my intent to posit a causal relationship. My observation is just that the increase in fuel prices will likely put additional downward pressure on the outer ‘burbs, with respect to lower income folks who commute a long distance.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:27 am
51 shore
“even if people in the outer ring ‘burbs had gas prices increase $400 a month, if that $400 pushes one over the edge, one had been dancing awfully close to it in the first place.”
now THAT I agree with. And $400/month is likely significantly more than the actual marginal increase for most NJ commuters.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:32 am
I agree with this article, although I will be purchasing a place in suburbia (Hillsborough). I made sure I was within reasonable commuting distance of several job centers and corridors when purchasing. I was looking at train towns like Metuchen (out of my price range) and up and coming places like New Brunswick (my aim is bad) and Rahway (priced as if the renovations were done, which is not a sure thing by any stretch - already condo projects are turning into rentals). Unfortunately NJT only benefits the NYC, Newark, or JC commuter and since that’s not me, I opted for suburbia - ironically I will be driving less than I would had I chosen Metuchen or Rahway. Luckily 90% of my errands can be done on 206 (provided I get an early start - ha!).
I think values will drop like a lead balloon and stay that way in far-flung exurbs where getting a quart of milk is a 6 mile odyssey and commuting to any job is a 50 mile one way schlep. I’m hoping close-in suburbs hold their value - we’ll still have to drive for 99% of daily living, but driving 12 miles vs. 60 miles to work is a major difference. As usual, the working class will suffer the most - a grocery store manager commuting from Toms River up to say, Bloomfield is looking at close to $600 a month in gasoline. If you’re rich, no biggie, but if you’re at $50k (and counting on overtime to get there) you’re hosed.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:32 am
gator
“Their son also got arrested last year for trespassing while illegally skateboarding. Mom and Dad then went on a royal crusade to get tax strapped Montclair to build a skate park.”
BARF
May 13th, 2008 at 10:32 am
Lower income folks in the NJ burbs tend to commute via carpool, train or bicycle. Out where I live, we don’t even have enough lower-income people to staff entry-level jobs. Many stores & fast food places minivan their employees from Newark, Union, etc.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:33 am
Prices down to 1999 prices? Can we start with 2004 prices first? Please, give me a break. The majority of listings I receive that I deem worthy to live in are still near peak prices. I’m not even talking about granite and stainless.
Wake me up when there’s substantial price drops instead of the dream scenario everyone’s wishing for.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:33 am
An example of the underlying problem is the woman below. Even if her rate were “just” 15%, paying $160 a month, and not putting any more purchases onher card (unlikely) it would take 63 months for her to pay off her debt on that one credit card.
With a slew of folks in her boat, where are the qualified borrowers going to come from to keep prices up, when the myth of ever-rising prices has at last been put to rest?
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/36507.html
Credit card nightmares prompt long-awaited crackdown
By Tony Pugh | McClatchy Newspapers
Posted on Friday, May 9, 2008
WASHINGTON — What prompted a slew of new federal proposals to combat abusive practices in the credit card industry depends on whom you talk to in Washington.
[snip]
And not a moment too soon for such folks as Kathi Parlier of Newnan, Ga., whose credit card interest rate jumped from about 7 percent to 32 percent in 2004 after a property foreclosure damaged her credit rating. Parlier, 42, said she’d never made a late payment on the card.
“I could deal with it going to 12 to 15 percent, but considering I was never late, they never should have gone up on it like that,” Parlier said. “They shouldn’t be able to do that.”
[snip]
That provision alone would have saved Parlier thousands of dollars. Her card balance was nearly $7,000 when the rate hike kicked in. The higher interest rate — now about 29 percent — means only a small portion of her payments go toward her debt.
“I paid $160 last month and $108 of that was finance charges, so I’ve only got $52 going to principal,” Parlier said. “I always pay a little more than the minimum, otherwise I would never get it paid off.”
May 13th, 2008 at 10:33 am
95 patient,
let me make sure i understand your point…. your saying that while the tax % will increase the actual cost (i.e 10k/yr) will remain the same?
Perhaps in the more insulated towns that have stringer financial fundamentals, but i dont not think that will be the case for most.
Look at hunterdon county, you had tax revenue sjy rocket over the last 10 years in step with housing
SO you pay 12K/yr in taxes on your 800K mcmansion. But who is oing to be willing to pay that same 12K in taxes when that house is only worth 500-600K Also consider that the state of NJ is i decline and that most growth is in low wage areas. NJ has lost/ is losing the high paid worker base required to support such taxes. I also think that people will start to balk at the taxes when they see that the taxes are actually about the same cost as the PI on the house.
Add the potential tax burden increase due to COAH driven construction and you end up trying to squeeze blood from a stone
May 13th, 2008 at 10:34 am
patient (104)-
I say, build skate parks…but ring them with sniper perches and allow target shooting.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:35 am
59 Shore
“Cutting back on medication instead of moving to a less expensive home? WTF? Are people THAT concerned with image?”
I think this says as much about the medication as anything else. Folks are taking cocktails of antidepressants, ritalin and g*d knows what else that they don’t really need (obviously some folks do, but there’s been an insanity of overmedication ever since pharmaceuticals could be directly marketed on my teevee).
May 13th, 2008 at 10:35 am
59 Shore
“Cutting back on medication instead of moving to a less expensive home? WTF? Are people THAT concerned with image?”
I think this says as much about the medication as anything else. Folks are taking c*cktails of antidepressants, ritalin and g*d knows what else that they don’t really need (obviously some folks do, but there’s been an insanity of overmedication ever since pharmaceuticals could be directly marketed on my teevee).
May 13th, 2008 at 10:38 am
vodka (108)-
Precisely. All other questions become moot when you consider that the primary challenge is the long-term erosion of our tax base as people leave in ever-increasing numbers.
Reversing the trend of an eroding tax base is akin to turning an even bigger battleship than that of declining RE values. I cannot think of one instance in American history in which an area experiencing an eroding tax base actually reversed the trend. Look at Cleveland, Detroit, Philly, etc. These cities will never come back.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:38 am
# 110 Just remember, as the TV commercial says, “If you experience an erection that lasts more than four hours, seek help immediatly.”
May 13th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Grim,
Can you look at NJMLS Listing Number: 2819510 and tell me what is up? There are no pics, but I don’t get it, is this a joke? 6.5 MIL?
Typo?
May 13th, 2008 at 10:39 am
From the AP:
Median home prices drop in many cities
Median home prices fell in two-thirds of the cities surveyed during the first three months of this year, a real estate trade group reported Tuesday.
The National Association of Realtors said that median prices for existing single-family homes dropped in 100 of 149 metropolitan areas in the January-March period, while 48 metropolitan areas saw prices increase and one reported no change.
Nationally, the median home price — the point where half the homes sold for more and half for less — fell to $196,300 in the first quarter, down by 7.7 percent from the same period a year ago, when the median sales price was $212,600.
The steep price decline was the latest indication of the problems facing the housing market, which is in a prolonged slump that has dragged down sales and home prices.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:39 am
# 111 “eroding tax base ”
Well, this is solved by incresing taxes, no?
May 13th, 2008 at 10:41 am
shore 112
i thought that was a feature!
May 13th, 2008 at 10:41 am
60 clot
“I thought London was the financial capital of the US. :)”
True. I forgot for a moment. So what is the London housing crash going to do the price of Manhattan housing? Weren’t they buying our property with all of their leftover money?
May 13th, 2008 at 10:41 am
What are the odds that any of this goes to pay down existing debt?
“Buono said the state is expected to collect $600 million more than what was initially estimated for the fiscal year that ends June 30.”
http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080513/NEWS/80513009
May 13th, 2008 at 10:42 am
104 Patient - Well you know their son wasn’t at fault and it wasn’t their bad parenting either. He was just being persecuted for doing something he loved.
Sad to see (but not surprising) they ran their finances with the same amount of order and discipline that they were raising their kids.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Shore (112)-
Seems like the solution to that is to seek more women immediately.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:42 am
From Bloomberg:
Home Prices Fall in Two-Thirds of U.S. Cities on Foreclosures
Housing prices fell in two-thirds of U.S. cities in the first three months of the year as a rise in foreclosures depressed property values and home sales tumbled 22 percent, the National Association of Realtors said.
The median price for a single-family home fell in 100 of 149 metropolitan areas studied by the Chicago-based real estate trade group. Home sales, including single-family houses and condominiums, dropped to 4.95 million at an annualized pace from 6.36 million a year ago, the group said in separate reports today.
Home prices are falling as foreclosed properties reduce the value of nearby real estate, said Lawrence Yun, the realtor group’s chief economist. U.S. foreclosure filings more than doubled in the first quarter from a year earlier, Irvine, California-based RealtyTrac Inc., a seller of foreclosure data, said in a study released April 29.
“Prices have fallen in neighborhoods with a wide prevalence of subprime loans, because more foreclosed properties are being sold at discounted prices,” Yun said in today’s report.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:44 am
From CNN/Money:
Home prices continue sharp descent
Single-family home prices dropped 7.7% in the first quarter in the largest year-over-year decline since the National Association of Realtors began reporting prices in 1982.
The median sales price fell to $196,300, down 4.8% compared with the last three months of 2007.
Lawrence Yun, the chief economist of NAR, attributed much of the record decline to liquidity problems dragging down high-priced markets.
“These are highly unusual results because there were very few jumbo loan originations in the latest quarter,” he said. “So sales are much slower in high-cost areas.”
May 13th, 2008 at 10:44 am
65 SG
“If you adjust for inflation, prices are at least in 2000 territory.”
That depends. Are you adusting for inflation, or are you adjusting for “Inflation”?
May 13th, 2008 at 10:48 am
#42 Strawman.
But the people in small capes are now paying $350-$400 per month to fill the oil tank.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:48 am
per the inflation calculator
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi
a $600K house in 1999 costs $760K in 2007 factoring in inflation.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:49 am
#118 shore: I am curious as to just where this additional found revenue is coming from.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:50 am
# 116 During Prohibition, one of the wineries down in South Jersey came up with a concoction that could pass the rules for alcohol content but when chilled to freezing would release the alcohol into the beverage. The packaging had a big warning on it to the effect of: Do NOT freeze, as this will cause alcohol to enter the drink.
I think the four-hour warning is meant to serve the same puropse.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:52 am
#117 njpatient: I already told you our sea of wealth is better than theirs.
And anyhow that story is probably just anecedotal.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:55 am
BC
you will appreciate the irony in this
from telegraph.uk.co
Crude ceased to be a friend of equities when it reached around $110 a barrel. At last week’s close of $126, it became an outright threat. The Bush rescue package - $800 in rebate cheques per household - has been rendered null and void by the latest spike. The average US home is now spending over 8pc of income on energy or fuel.
OPEC is playing with fire by refusing to pump more oil to offset rebel attacks in Nigeria. The cartel’s output drop of 350,000 barrels a day in April is a hostile act at this point.
But there again, why should Middle Eastern states help America as long as the White House keeps filling the US petroleum reserve to prepare for war with Iran? Bush is playing with fire, too.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:55 am
#106 gary: Time for your yoga seesions and Enya CD’s.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:58 am
grim, re: 121 & 122, any data for NJ ?
May 13th, 2008 at 10:59 am
# 129
What is folks’ assessment of what happens to RE prices if, or as I suspect when, Bush launches an attack on Iran in mid November?
May 13th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Mike,
Yes, but the NAR hasn’t yet updated the spreadsheets on their site.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:00 am
3b [130],
I wouldn’t mind some yoga and maybe a hit of xanax… you can keep the Enya (whatever that is) CD’s, though.
But honestly, I’m just calling it as I see it.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:00 am
87 grim
pulled out the battery
problem solved.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:01 am
#105 clot:Out where I live, we don’t even have enough lower-income people to staff entry-level jobs.
You don’t have them, or the residents refuse to work at those jobs.
I am amaazed at the amount of resumes I see, from young college grads, who have never, ever, worked a single day in their life in any capacity.
Now they expect because they graduated from (fill in your latest buzzz college or university) that they should be paid big bucks
Again I am truly amazed young people 22, 23, 24 years old who have never, ever been employed.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Re 125, since when is inflation a god given right. Tell that to folks who bought internet stocks.
Most towns have three to five year committments on salaries, benefits, bond debt payments, rents, car leases etc. If home prices fall like a brick in 2009, lets say a 600K house becoms a 300K house the towns will have little choice but to double the tax rate on the house to get the same taxes. That plus many towns (including mine) experienced a mini baby boom during 2003 to 2007 when times were good)all those kids are hitting the schools starting next year at a time when fuel costs are way up and the new teachers will be getting the good multi year packages they got the taxpayers to sign off on in 2006/2007. Plus a RE downturn cuts sales tax projections which is a second source of revenues so that has to be made up somewhere. Finally, your towns pensions are guaranteed the low interest rates of today and the shaky stock market will hurt your pension projections and you will have to pony up more money in taxes to cover them.
You guys are smoking the wacky tobbacy in your peace pipes if you think RE taxes will fall in halp when your home values fall in half. Unless the garbage men, teachers and cops take a voluntary pay cut, HA HA>
Way back in the day coops that had high maint verus coops that had low maint we used a general rule of thumb that for every 100K a month extra in maint the buyer wanted 10K off the price of the coop. People will buy little capes with high taxes as people only care about monthly costs. So that couple that sells and moves down south we sell it at a loss to cover the taxes for the new guy and the town will still get the same amounts.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:02 am
grim,
Please un-mod me.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Shore Guy #59: For many boomers who have been in their homes a long time, there is no such thing as a less expensive home. If your home is paid for and you have no mortgage, it’s going to be tough to find a less expensive place. It isn’t all about greedy boomers living in McMansions and stealing all our money yada yada fill in the rest of the standard anti-boomer cliches here.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:05 am
# 136 “You guys are smoking the wacky tobbacy in your peace pipes if you think RE taxes will fall in halp when your home values fall in half. Unless the garbage men, teachers and cops take a voluntary pay cut, HA HA”
As I read this it got me wondering whether school districts and towns might not seek the cover of Chapter 9 in order to get out from under some of these previously-agreed-to expenses.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Question for all the landlords out there.
I have a friend who is currently 4.5 months into a one year lease. He’s having a problem with pests (roaches) that are not originating from his apartment but are coming in from somewhere. He has contacted the property manager and landlord but never gets a response. If this problem can not be rectified does he have the ability to terminate the lease early without losing his security deposit?
May 13th, 2008 at 11:06 am
From MarketWatch:
No spring bounce for housing, Toll CEO says
The chief executive of Toll Brothers, the nation’s largest builder of luxury homes, on Tuesday said buyers didn’t materialize this spring as sales and prices continued to plunge in the company’s latest quarter.
…
“The just-completed spring selling season was quite weak in most markets as buyers remained on the sidelines,” said Robert Toll, chief executive, in a statement. He said buyers are afraid to buy a home, only to see it fall in value.
…
Toll’s early second-quarter numbers “brought further confirmation that this year’s spring selling season has again been a letdown,” wrote Deutsche Bank analysts in an investor note Tuesday.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:09 am
#138 John: Towns will just simply readjust the tax rate up, and the assessed values down, so that they collect the same amount of money.
I find it ironic that in my town some of the biggest cheer leaders for uncontrolled school construction spending, are now howling mad about our out of control property taxes.
One has to ask what did you think would happen?
May 13th, 2008 at 11:12 am
# 140 I am also a boomer. That said, I was pointing to the part of the article that said “more than one-quarter of those surveyed are having trouble paying their mortgage or rent.” In instances where people cannot make the mortgage or rent they must seriously consider moving to a less expensive house, town, or state. If one has a medical conditionthat requires medicine (say heart issue, diabetes, hypertension) and one decides, heck, I will cut back on these so I can make the mortgage payment, one’s priorities are, im my view, upside down. One’s home is important, but it is not THAT important.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:14 am
John 138,
We are saying the same thing as you.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:15 am
# 142 Even if he cannot terminate the lease, I suspect that he can hire an exterminator (and maybe take some additional action to remediate the situation) and use that as partial in-kind payment towards rent — if he puts the landlord on notice that he is going to do this and gives the landlord an opportunity to take care of it.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:17 am
shore 141
declaring bankruptcy will only hurt a town further. who is going to buy a house that already carries ridiculous taxes in a town that just declared bankruptcy protection?
The bankruptcy alone would reduce home values int hat ton and exacerbate the situation
May 13th, 2008 at 11:20 am
# 148 I do not know that you are incorrect. On the other hand, if they were able to repudiate certain obligations, lessening the need for increasing taxes……………….
May 13th, 2008 at 11:20 am
#142,
He screwed. Can’t get out of lease. Shore’s comment above is valid as long as he gets access to his roach infested neighboors.
That’s a minor downside to renting.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Off topic but just too good to pass up. All I can say is oy. what a headline!
Drunk ‘Darth Vader’ punished for Jedi attack
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080513/od_afp/britaincourtoffbeatentertainmentfilmstarwars;_ylt=AnTP.wkmK7QcoyM61d8CGFhvaA8F
May 13th, 2008 at 11:22 am
88 clot
“Shore, when has it ever been any different here? I’m 48, and I’ve never known it any other way.”
Same here. Was just watching the Pop-Up Video version of Wall Street, and apparently the watch that Gordon Gekko wears in the film sold out following the release of the film.
Even in the ’50s, it was the age of the conspicious perfect family and c*cktail.
It was probably different in the ’30s.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Doyle (114),
It was a typo that was corrected today
2401461
ACT 88 INSLEY AVE $599,900 1/16/2004
ACT* 88 INSLEY AVE $599,900 2/3/2004
U/C 88 INSLEY AVE $599,900 3/22/2004
SLD 88 INSLEY AVE $580,000 6/3/2004
2714277 Withdrawn
ACT 88 INSLEY AVE $750,000 4/11/2007
W-U 88 INSLEY AVE $750,000 5/24/2007
2819510
ACT 88 INSLEY AVE $659,900 5/12/2008
PCH* 88 INSLEY AVE $659,900 5/13/2008
May 13th, 2008 at 11:22 am
#149 - I see where you’re going with that… However, since their biggest expense would probably be pensioned/retired employees would Ch. 9 allow them out from under those obligations?
May 13th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Regionally, the median existing single-family home price in the
Northeast rose 3.2 percent to $280,000 in the first quarter from the same
period in 2007.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:23 am
Let me chime in as one of those who would never buy a condo - for most of the reasons already thrown out there. Can’t imagine hocking myself like that.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:24 am
SS 142,
as long as your friend documents that he has made multiple attempts to contact the landlord and have the problem corrected he can withhold a portion of the rent until the situation is resolved. i have had to do this before but follow the rules or you can get burned.
he may want to consult an attorney first as i no nothing about law
Q. When can a tenant withhold rents pending repairs by a landlord, or in the alternative, deduct the costs of such repairs from the rent?
A. A landlord warrants to the tenant that the leased property is habitable. This is known as the implied warrant of habitability. This warranty is not against all inconveniences or discomforts. A claimed defect must directly affect the tenant’s ability to occupy the demised (rented) premises. Transitory failures generally do not constitute a breach of this warranty. Courts have found that the breach must be so substantial as to amount to a constructive eviction. This means that the problem must be so bad that the tenant cannot continue to occupy the space and would have to leave unless the repairs were made. Recently, judges hearing habitability cases, (as they are known), have been leaning away from a strict interpretation of the case law and have been giving tenants credit in the form of rent abatements for claimed defects that ordinarily may be perceived as trivial.
continued……
http://www.njlawnet.com/njlawreview/landlordtenant101.html
May 13th, 2008 at 11:24 am
#142,
Stop paying rent. That will get their attention! Also if your friend moves he should use the security deposit as the last month’s rent. If the LL wants to come after him (entirely possible) your friend will at least have no skin in the game at this point. Have your friend start sending certified letters to management and the LL documenting what he sees and asking for action. If/when the LL looks to recoup the rest of the rent through court action this documentation will be necessary to prove inaction on the part of the LL.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:25 am
Even in a bankruptcy they would just kill the library, swiming, sports, park maint, street cleaning etc. to make life miserable to the people who live their while keeping cops, teacher salaries at their current high rates. You taxes would fall just a little and your home value would be wiped out.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:25 am
As I read this it got me wondering whether school districts and towns might not seek the cover of Chapter 9 in order to get out from under some of these previously-agreed-to expenses.
There are two towns in California currently under Chapter 9 and there will be thousands to come in the next 4-5 years.
Kettle,
Housing is gonna crash regrdless but this will bring in additional pain I agree.
Inflation of food and energy and this dollar crisis will kill the pant up demand that bi is talking about. Assuming of course it’s real.
I can’t wait to join you in your bunker in Domenica.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:25 am
“Maybe this summer I will buy more local grown fruits and veggies and skip the pineapples from Hawaii”
One of the many happy benefits of high oil prices. It’s not all bad.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:30 am
101 shore
I misread you. That’s unquestionably right, and I think it’s an issue that will accelerate.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:30 am
“But there again, why should Middle Eastern states help America as long as the White House keeps filling the US petroleum reserve to prepare for war with Iran? Bush is playing with fire, too.”
kettle,
Was the above from the article or did you add this?
Many are blasting Bush for adding to the SPR, at these levels. They are clamoring for releases.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:30 am
NJ showed a gain??
http://www.cnbc.com/id/24596311
35 minutes ago
Home Prices: Glass Still Seems Half Empty
[snip]
The Realtors do the quarterly sales figures by state, and only 3 states showed positive figures in the first quarter of this year from a year ago: Alaska, Indiana and New Jersey.
[snip]
May 13th, 2008 at 11:31 am
I’m still patiently waiting for the spreadsheets to be updated on the NAR site…
May 13th, 2008 at 11:31 am
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/05-13-2008/0004812454&EDATE=
May 13th, 2008 at 11:32 am
John 159
That is exactly why any town that goes down the chapter 9 road is likely to to be toast. Who will be willing to buy there after that? if you cant sell, then housing prices go down. it quite a nasty feedback loop
May 13th, 2008 at 11:33 am
make money,
See you in dominica, the entry fee is reasonable, (guns food or alcohol) bring 1
May 13th, 2008 at 11:34 am
Mahwah
SLD 122 SEMINARY DR $1,199,000 7/23/2001
2722100 Withdrawn 117 days
ACT 122 SEMINARY DR $1,899,999 6/1/2007
EXT 122 SEMINARY DR $1,899,999 8/28/2007
W-U 122 SEMINARY DR $1,899,999 9/25/2007
2739073 Withdrawn 24 days
ACT 122 SEMINARY DR $1,799,000 9/25/2007
W-U 122 SEMINARY DR $1,799,000 10/18/2007
2742495 Sold 207 days New broker/agent
ACT 122 SEMINARY DR $1,799,000 10/19/2007
PCH 122 SEMINARY DR $1,599,000 10/29/2007
PCH 122 SEMINARY DR $1,495,000 1/31/2008
EXT 122 SEMINARY DR $1,495,000 2/14/2008
EXT 122 SEMINARY DR $1,495,000 3/19/2008
PCH 122 SEMINARY DR $1,350,000 4/4/2008
ACT* 122 SEMINARY DR $1,350,000 4/18/2008
U/C 122 SEMINARY DR $1,350,000 4/21/2008
SLD 122 SEMINARY DR $1,250,000 5/12/2008
May 13th, 2008 at 11:34 am
Dominica, What a great place. After Grenada, I think it is my favorite spot down inthe blue waters.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:37 am
108 kettle
No - you misread me.
Property taxes will keep rising, but measuring them as a percentage of property value is misleading.
Say a given plot is currently taxed at $15K (whatever that is as a percentgage). I have no doubt that in 5 years that will be $20K (in today’s dollars). Whether the value of the underlying property rises or falls, the gov’t will set the percentage to get the amount of money it needs, thus arriving at $20K.
So my point is that a rise or fall in the value of the underlying property does not cause a change in the gross amount of tax that will be levied on that property. The gross amount will rise from level X to level Y (whatever amount the gov’t decides it needs) regardless of the value of the property.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:38 am
109 clot
For THAT, I’d be willing to toss in a couple extra dollars in taxes…
May 13th, 2008 at 11:39 am
thanks for all your feedback. I’ll pass on the info.
He did say the prop mgt has been trying to get rid of the little bastards but it’s not helping. What wold you say is a “reasonable” amount of time to give Mgt/LL to fix the problem?
May 13th, 2008 at 11:41 am
119 Shore
“What are the odds that any of this goes to pay down existing debt?”
0
This has been another episode of “Simple Answers to Simple Questions.”
May 13th, 2008 at 11:41 am
#169 Rich: Dare we say back just about at 2001 prices.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:42 am
123 grim
per Yun - it’s a change in the mix!!! Doesn’t count!!!!! Do-over!!!!
May 13th, 2008 at 11:42 am
# 174
Cynic. Oh, wait, no, just someone who has lived in NJ for awhile.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:44 am
#153 Thanks Rich!
And, Thank God.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:44 am
133 Shore
Don’t be ridiculous. It might be Syria instead.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:45 am
133 Shore
Also, the election is in November, so invading then would be stupid. The invasion will be in October.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:46 am
#173,
“Reasonable” is all relative. Think of it this way, what would it take to convince a judge in superior court that you gave a “reasonable” amount of time? That is the person who will be making the decision if/when the LL sues for the rest of the lease term $$.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:47 am
3b Says:
May 13th, 2008 at 10:49 am
#118 shore: I am curious as to just where this additional found revenue is coming from.
3B: My guesses?
1. Withdrawals from 401(k) and IRAs.
2. Capital gains on sales of homes, stocks etc. for purposes of liquidity.
3. Large payments for severance.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Average/medi