Wed 16 Jul 2008
From Bloomberg:
New 20% Down Payment Makes Savers From Profligate U.S. Spenders
The U.S. housing crisis may accomplish what years of parental hectoring couldn’t: Turn Americans from spenders into savers.
Spending will fall because homeowners can no longer use rising real estate values to borrow cash — $837.5 billion in 2006, according to a report by former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan and James Kennedy. With mortgage lenders requiring down payments of 20 percent, the average household, which puts away less than 1 percent of after-tax pay, will have to save 10 percent for 10 years to buy a home.
The housing market shaved almost 1.6 percent off gross domestic product growth in the first quarter and cut in half the growth rate of consumer spending, which accounts for more than two-thirds of the economy, said Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Economy.com in West Chester, Pennsylvania.
“The loss of housing wealth is the difference between a recessionary economy and a growing economy,” said Zandi, an adviser to presumptive Republican presidential nominee Senator John McCain. “Consumers have powered the global economy for the past 25 years. For the foreseeable future, maybe the next 25 years, the savings rate will move higher.”
The worst housing crisis in at least a quarter century still has a long way to go, Zandi said. It will take until 2015 for the median home price to return to its July 2006 peak of $230,200, while home sales and residential construction will never again reach the record highs of 2005 and 2006, he said.
…
The residential housing decline will “change the structure” of the U.S. economy by forcing Americans to save, said Neal Soss, chief economist at Credit Suisse Group in New York.“The days of wine and roses are over,” said Soss, who worked at the Federal Reserve for former Chairman Paul Volcker in the 1980s. “We were drunk on money. Getting sober is a painful process.”
July 16th, 2008 at 5:56 am
From the Star Ledger:
BlackRock close to Pa. move
BlackRock, one of the world’s largest investment funds, is “very close” to a deal to move 1,200 employees from Plainsboro to Philadelphia, according to three executives with knowledge of the negotiations.
New Jersey officials had made a strong bid for the project, offering a lucrative package of tax breaks if the company agreed to move to New Brunswick.
But the bi-state bidding escalated in recent weeks, when Pennsylvania offered a better package of tax breaks to move to the center-city location in Philadelphia, according to the executives, who requested anonymity because a final deal has not been inked.
“All I can say is there is no formal agreement,” said Kevin Ortiz, spokesman for the Pennsylvania Department of Economic Development.
July 16th, 2008 at 5:57 am
From NBC:
CORZINE CALLS ECONOMY A CRISIS, GROWTH THE SOLUTION
It’s bad and getting worse, so says Governor Corzine about the nation’s financial status.
On the same day he was named to head the Economic Committee of the National Governor’s Association, Corzine says, the economy is hitting a “crisis point.”
He spoke to union workers in Atlantic City this morning, promising to do all he can to keep New Jersey’s economy moving forward.
“This whole economy could collapse, I think it’s very, very close to that now,” says William Mullen, President of the N.J. State Building and Construction Trades Council.
“I think we’re almost in a ‘recessionary’ time in New Jersey, the unemployment is mounting.”
State leaders point out gas prices are up, foreclosures are up, inflation is up, healthcare costs are up and so are the national and state debts.
“There is major erosion of the economic wealth of the country going on,” says Corzine.
July 16th, 2008 at 5:59 am
From USA Today:
Economic pain: ‘Payback’ for debt-fueled growth?
So this is what a day of reckoning feels like.
Already down 23% from its October high, the Dow Jones industrial average touches a two-year low. The Labor Department says wholesale prices are rising at their fastest pace since Ronald Reagan’s first year in the White House. Embattled automaker and American icon General Motors suspends its dividend to stockholders. The last time that happened? 1922.
In Washington, somber statements came from both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue. President Bush, meeting reporters at the White House, acknowledged, “It’s been a difficult time for many American families.” On Capitol Hill, Federal Reserve Board Chairman Ben Bernanke warned lawmakers, “The economy continues to face numerous difficulties.”
If it wasn’t clear before Tuesday, it is now: This is no ordinary economic crisis, and it won’t be over anytime soon. In fact, problems are multiplying. A year ago, the financial virus seemed confined to subprime mortgages, defaults on loans given to those with less-than-perfect credit. Now, much of the banking system appears rickety, and the U.S. economy has slowed to a crawl. But thanks to robust demand from still-growing countries such as China, the prices of commodities from oil to food have soared — hitting Americans from the gas pump to the grocery checkout.
“There’s no hope of an early recovery at this point,” says economist Kenneth Rogoff of Harvard University. “The best-case scenario is we have a long but mild recession — and that’s the best-case scenario.”
July 16th, 2008 at 6:02 am
From the Bloomberg:
Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac May Halt Dividends on Losses
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the beleaguered U.S. mortgage-finance companies, may cut common stock dividends to preserve capital after their shares fell 80 percent this year, data compiled by Bloomberg show.
Freddie Mac will probably halt its 25-cents-a-share quarterly payment and Fannie Mae will likely eliminate dividends after more than $11 billion in combined losses since last year, according to Bloomberg dividend forecasts. Washington-based Fannie Mae has paid shareholders for three decades, while Freddie Mac, located in McLean, Virginia, increased its payout every year since 1990 before lowering the awards in November.
July 16th, 2008 at 6:08 am
“NLPC Blasts Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac for Lavishing Contributions on Jesse Jackson as Companies Near Collapse”
http://tinyurl.com/6693wq
July 16th, 2008 at 6:17 am
For may of us that 20% requirement is going to be the final thing to put us ahead of many of the RE-speculators ect we were competing with.
It won’t affect high income towns with families buying homes for other family members as much.
July 16th, 2008 at 6:23 am
Affordable housing suit filed.
http://www.courierpostonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080716/NEWS01/807160369/-1/newsfront2
July 16th, 2008 at 6:24 am
Mt. Laurel appeals housing rules.
http://www.courierpostonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080716/NEWS01/807160375/-1/newsfront2
July 16th, 2008 at 6:38 am
Story: New house popped up on MLS in the area we’re looking. Wife is smitten. So much so that I call the agent Monday and she asks if i have an agent and says she can ‘help me out’ if I become her client.
Wife EMAILS agent to ask about a viewing this weekend. Wife notes our lease isn’t up for 7 months, so we can’t move immediately. Agent: “Oh, I’m sorry honey, but I’ve got a hot house here. I’ve had a lot of calls already, and two people are really hot for it and I expect it to be gone by this weekend.”
Wife, who is an avid NJ Re Report reader, laughs and says, “Oh, well how about this - when I see it on MLS in a month, I’ll give you a call, and you can show it to me then.”
It reminded me of the scene in Rounders where Matt Damon talked about playing Johnny Chan: “he comes over the top and tries to bully me like I’m some f’in tourist.”
Some of the agents are such a joke.
(fwiw, the house looks damn good, but the sale price seems too good to be true.)
July 16th, 2008 at 6:40 am
The whole credit industry for years has been training lower and middle income consumers into spending more right now and paying it later rather than saving for it now and buying it later. Using credit isn’t bad but the whole mentality people use with credit is just off and not good for them.
The same thing that’s been going on with the mortgage market in recent years I believe has been going on in the consumer credit market for many years. The effects are less subtle but it has led to an increase in pricing.
An example, instead of saving away for a few months or a few years for a flat screen tv, someone just puts it on their credit card and pays interest instead of making interest.
People won’t be able to just learn to save 20% for a down payment without learning to handle money and credit correctly. Everyone should pick up “The Millionaire Next Door” because it will take forever to get everyone on that A&E show where that bald guy yells at you and cuts up your credit cards. :)
July 16th, 2008 at 6:42 am
#2
“There is major erosion of the economic wealth of the country going on,” says Corzine.
So he had better hurry and raises taxes while people still have some wealth!
/ sarcasm
July 16th, 2008 at 6:48 am
Tom please stop making sense.
We live in America. We are entitled to instant gratification and to lead a lifestyle we can not afford. Says so right in the Declaration of independence with the pursuit of happiness line
July 16th, 2008 at 6:51 am
If 20% downpayments come back in vogue I think we are looking at 1999 or earlier prices. Not many people have 80k to put down on a cape in a train town or a mcmansion out in west bumbleville
July 16th, 2008 at 6:52 am
1 grim
So far there are only 3 Little Patients. I am considering having 1197 more and going to live in whichever state gives me the best package.
I haven’t told Mrs. Patient yet.
July 16th, 2008 at 6:53 am
Oooh. I get to be the first to bring up an oil topic today.
I guess we all know the answer, but why isn’t there more pressure for the government to do something about oil prices by having the oil companies and their refineries give up some of their record prices and go to more sustainable profit levels “for the good of the country”. You know, just like how the American citizens are constantly encouraged to spend money?
One thing I read recently indicated that the profit refineries have been making for the same amount of oil has nearly doubled. Or at least give up the subsidies. In the past, it seemed that the refineries were mostly owned by third parties, now more than half are owned by the big oil companies like exxon mobile, bp, shell, etc.
A may article in the NYT seems to indicate that oil companies are feeling it as consumers are doing things to conserve gas. Hopefully they get used to doing that even when gas prices go back down.
July 16th, 2008 at 6:54 am
“CORZINE CALLS ECONOMY A CRISIS, GROWTH THE SOLUTION”
Njpatient calls world hunger a crisis, food the solution.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:03 am
bairen,
yep, that’s the point. There are a lot of things that need to be done to bridge the gap between the economic classes in this country. House prices should go down. There was a chart in one of my blog postings from a HUD paper. It showed that the high income groups typically buy homes that are typically 1 times their yearly income while the middle class was somewhere around 3-4 and the lower income group was 4-5 (I forget the exact numbers). House prices need to come down so that lower and middle income families can live in decent homes and still have money for things like education for their kids, other savings and investments to be able to live better lives.
All the credit that’s been given to the lower and middle income groups to be able to live seemingly richer lives, winds up going up to the high income groups. I have no problem with money floating up the corporate food chain, but when the lower to mid income groups are fed more and more credit because they don’t make enough, so that we can keep feeding the high income groups that just increase their profits and give themselves insane bonuses without passing that down to their employees who drive the economy just doesn’t make sense. Just like the lax lending practices lit a fire under house prices I believe the same happened with consumer goods in general.
I never thought I’d be saying stuff like this.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:11 am
njp
Tell the Mrs everthing must be in even numbers to be balanced. Then after #4 tell her 4 is unlucky in Chinese culture. After #5 point out 6 is very lucky in Chinese culture.
You’re on your own for the other 1,194.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:14 am
From the WSJ:
Europe’s Economy Takes a Hit
U.S. Turmoil Raises Odds of Slump;
Bankruptcy Rocks Spain
By MARCUS WALKER in Berlin, JOELLEN PERRY in Frankfurt and JONATHAN HOUSE in Madrid
July 16, 2008; Page A1
Just a few weeks ago, Europe thought it could escape the worst of the global slowdown. Now it looks like the euro zone, the world’s second-largest economy, is headed for a hard landing and perhaps recession, compounding growth troubles around the world.
…
The rising risk of recession in Europe shows that despite the strength of emerging markets such as Russia and China, the economic downturn that began in the U.S. last year is spreading to other regions. That is battering hopes that the global economy might have “decoupled” just enough from America’s that the rest of the world could ride out a U.S. slump relatively unscathed.
…
The ECB continues to predict the 15-nation euro zone will suffer only a gradual slowdown. At a news conference earlier this month, President Jean-Claude Trichet admitted second-quarter euro-zone growth would disappoint and warned “the third quarter will probably not be particularly flattering either,” but stressed the bloc’s “sound” fundamentals. The bank’s official forecast is that the euro-zone economy will “trough” in the second quarter and expand by around 1.8% this year and 1.5% next year.
“They are wrong,” says Olivier Gasnier, economist with Société Générale in Paris, who predicts the euro zone will grow by only 1.1% this year — thanks mainly to a first quarter whose strength probably won’t be repeated — and an anemic 0.4% next year.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:17 am
From MarketWatch:
Mortgage filings up 1.7% last week, MBA says
Mortgage applications filed last week rose a seasonally adjusted 1.7% compared with the previous week, driven by an uptick in homeowners interested in refinancings, the Mortgage Bankers Association reported on Wednesday.
Applications were down 17.4% compared with the same week in 2007, the Washington-based MBA said.
Refinance applications increased 6.9% for the week ended July 11 as opposed to the previous week, as homeowners took advantage of falling interest rates charged on mortgages, according to the MBA’s weekly survey.
Applications for mortgages to purchase a home, however, were down a seasonally adjusted 1.7% on a week-to-week basis.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:17 am
#17 Tom
I think higher interest rates, food, and energy prices combined with tighter lending standards will bring housing down to more affordable levels with the masses.
It is disgusting how credit card companies chase after college kids and how predatory some student loans are. It’s not much different then drug dealers hanging out near schools and playgrounds. Get them hooked young and they are yours for life.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:18 am
Just wait until they see the dismal numbers on the “back -to -school” buying. Maybe then they will get that the consumer is tapped out. Or…credit cards will be trotted out and put even more families into precarious positions. I don’t think there is enough disposable income for the usual purchases.
Maybe I’m wrong and others are doing better than I am but I don’t foresee buying any new items this year. No raise in a year like this is really taking its toll.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:20 am
Ah damn I never did post the June sales data, did I.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:21 am
Chuck opens his trap again on Finance, wonders if uptick rule should be put back in.
“U.S. Senator Charles Schumer questioned whether the SEC should restore the so-called uptick rule, which barred traders from short-selling stocks when prices are falling. The rule, scrapped in June 2007, was implemented after the Great Depression to prevent raids on companies.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aHAEqg4vEeCY
Hey Chuck, go work on the strength of the dollar, and stop worrying about people making money on the downside. If you make it a one sided game with only one outcome people won’t play and then you will really see a liquidity crisis.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:22 am
(23) Not sure if you posted them, Grim. I’m just going by what I see happening in my little neck of the woods. The consumer can’t consume..they are buying food and gas.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:23 am
23 grim. We just all assumed people got smart and there were no sales? :)
July 16th, 2008 at 7:25 am
“This whole economy could collapse, I think it’s very, very close to that now,” says William Mullen, President of the N.J. State Building and Construction Trades Council.
[2],
Prudent chap.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:26 am
Corzine better start attracting more businesses and taxpayers to NJ.
New Jersey’s Pension Fund Ends Year With $4.4 Billion Loss
New Jersey’s state employee pension fund lost about $4.4 billion, or 3.1 percent of its assets, during the 12 months ended June 30.
Holdings totaled $77.7 billion, according to a preliminary report posted on the Division of Investment’s Web site. The pension, operated on behalf of more 700,000 current and retired state employees, had assets of about $82.1 billion in the previous year, when it returned 17 percent.
The pension system incurred a 4.9 percent loss in June alone, a time when the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index declined 8.4 percent.
William Clark, the division’s director, said diversifying away from stocks and bonds into commodities and private equity tempered the loss, which he called “disappointing.”
Declining investment returns come as the state faces a pension shortfall, which totaled $28.3 billion as of June 30, 2007, according to actuarial reports commissioned by the state. New Jersey also confronts $58.1 billion in estimated future costs for retiree health-care benefits.
http://www.state.nj.us/treasury/doinvest/pdf/cpf_values.pdf
July 16th, 2008 at 7:27 am
“There’s no hope of an early recovery at this point,” says economist Kenneth Rogoff of Harvard University.”
[3],
What about the idiotic Hope Now plan? How we fallen off the slope of Hope?
July 16th, 2008 at 7:31 am
bairen [13],
From the get go, 2005, I’ve stated that we would revisit 2001 prices and probably overshoot to 1998-1999.
Well, do we party like its 1999?
July 16th, 2008 at 7:33 am
Tom [15],
Socialize losses and force companies to cough up profits? USA Manifesto?
July 16th, 2008 at 7:37 am
bairen,
It doesn’t seem to just be college kids. According to this, GE Money (Consumer Finance) has been targetting minorities with higher interest rates. Looks like they came late in the game buying up some subprime mortgage companies just before the peak and have been trying to unload them. From what I hear the hole division is up for sale. Looks like they really made some questionable decisions and are going to be feeling the pain. They’ve sold off some of their loans for hundreds of millions of dollars in loses.
They might have made some with their stainless steel appliances during the bubble but their consumer financing strategies are probably going to catch up with them. GE Money also handles the store credit cards for Home Depot and I’m sure the housing troubles are going to really hurt.
Airlines aren’t doing great so their jet engine sales probably wont’ be doing well either. It seems they had at least a couple big gov’t contracts in Iraq and from the news on how those went it seems like it was practically free money for most contractors.
Such a large and iconic American company that was so well diversified really seemed to screw up in regards to consumer finance and it’s hurt their share price. The value of GE used to be greater than the sum of it’s parts but analysts no longer think that is true, especially with so many of it’s parts in trouble. Some people have been suggesting they break off more parts but they parts they’ve been trying to get rid of having been attracting much interest.
I don’t know if they ever did sell of WMC though. All the news I read was that it was up for sale but I haven’t seen any recent news other than selling off some of the subprime loans.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:38 am
“Maybe I’m wrong and others are doing better than I am but I don’t foresee buying any new items this year”
Cindy,
Unfortunately the masters have other ideas. You’ll be buying Bear, toxic loans, Indy Mac, Freddie/Fannie. Dig deeper into your pockets. We allow the upper crust to walk away with zillions while they obliterate their balance sheets and pass it on to you and me. Investigate the fed, treasury and the sec.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:40 am
Sean [24],
He’s pissing in the wind. The uptick rule was in place during the dot com implosion. Does Chuck offer another scapegoat for that bust?
July 16th, 2008 at 7:44 am
BC Bob,
I wouldn’t call it socializing anything. In the early part of this decade we were in a recession and the 9/11 attacks made things worse. The American people were asked to keep spending and going on with our lives to keep our economy going. For many people this didn’t include spending the money they had but money they had yet to make in the form of using their credit.
For the most part, the American consumers did that and what we saw was that companies took in larger profits and didn’t pass that back down the way a healthy economy should. It was passed along to the top executives through insane salaries and bonuses, even when the companies financials and stock prices weren’t so hot.
Now it’s the American consumer that is suffering, and as a result so is the economy. I don’t know if you were being sarcastic or not, but I’m not saying they should operate at a loss, it’s just time they stop bleeding us for all they can get and return the favor.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:47 am
re: 34 - BC Bob, Chuck is not going to blame his constituents, or propose any kind of legislation to regulate them.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:49 am
(35) Wow, Tom. That was good. You just helped me recall all of the tourists returning to NYC.. going to shows and on buying sprees etc. Remember those
commercials with all of the actors in the streets?
July 16th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Just caught up from yesterdays posts.
Grim, glad I was able to make the mini GTG.
Wrenching time I’m sure.
If you want to hit some good\bad dive bars in area let me know. Wife away fri & Sat with kids.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:57 am
#30 BC Bob
“Well, do we party like its 1999?”
Only if we still have incomes and food.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:57 am
Tom,
If the idiots didn’t pull out equity to buy gas guzzlers, we would not be experiencing this problem today. They can bitch and moan all they want. However, it’s time John Q looks at himself in the mirror and take responsibility for his/her own actions. Nobody was forcing us to splurge like some drunken sailors. It’s all fine and dandy when assets are appreciating at 10% a year. Did anybody offer to share their profits with the unfortunate at that time? It’s time to suck it up. Somebody is in a pickle, well my question is, how did they get there? Why should the prudent be burdened with this fiasco?
The oil comapnies don’t determine the price of crude. It’s market driven. Blame the maestro’s. They devised this game plan. Who’s responsible for a currency that has lost over 40% of its value?
July 16th, 2008 at 8:00 am
CEOs of Investment banks accuse each other of
heresy and treason.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121617167587756521.html?mod=mktw
July 16th, 2008 at 8:11 am
Kind of related to oil and since it was one of you @#*%ers that got me thinking organic I want to pimp this company again that sells a mail-order organic lawn care program now that I applied my first treatment :) It’s rare that I like a company enough to tell people about them. Using lawn care products that aren’t petroleum based and safe for kids and pets feels good to me. I like that it’s mail order because I don’t have to remember what to do when or deal with getting stuff locally or paying the tolls and gas to get them. Contact with the company has been very good too.
I’ve been spending some more of my recreational internet time trying to figure out how to get my lawn looking better because reading too much about housing, oil, the economy got to be a bit depressing. Yeah it’s fun to bash the people that try and pretend nothing is going on and the companies that got us in this mess but in the end, all indications are that this is going to be a pretty hard hit to the economy.
Did any of you guys that were talking about a reel mower pick one up?
July 16th, 2008 at 8:14 am
Clotpoll,
Are you seeing lenders pull back to 80% max on 1st mortgages? I’m not seeing that at Chase
July 16th, 2008 at 8:14 am
BC Bob - Let me know if I am understanding this mess correctly:
If the gov had reined in the mortgage companies when they should have (evidently they have had the power to do so since 1994 but only used it a few days ago) we would not be dealing with a mortgage crisis and only have the inflation issues which could be addressed with a raise in interest rates. But since we have the mortgage mess, a raising of rates would cripple the housing industry so everyone feels like they are in a double bind and have their hands are tied.
If this is not the general scenario can you spell it out in those kind of terms..
Thanks
July 16th, 2008 at 8:17 am
From the NYT:
More Homeowners Consider Taking in Boarders
By JOHN LELAND
Published: July 16, 2008
BALTIMORE — When Barbara Terry fell behind on her mortgage payments earlier this year, she did the previously unthinkable. Through a local housing organization, she and her daughter, Imani, 9, rented part of their single-family house to a stranger.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/16/us/16share.html?ref=us
July 16th, 2008 at 8:25 am
Donald Trump, 15 seconds ago on Howard Stern:
“This is a great time to buy real estate. You can make good deals today.”
He bought some building for $100 million, so I guess this is his way of defending that purchase.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:27 am
[43]
Would like to add that I don’t buy that 20% down is becoming the new thing. If you have 20% down great, it might get you the best financing terms, but I had a bank tell me just yesterday that they could finance us with as little as 3% down (and we have 20% to put down).
If 20% down becomes a requirement, it will destroy the housing market (way beyond what were seeing today). It would eliminate just about all first time buyers on the East and West Coasts and most suburban areas of the Mid West.
If you have good credit and good income, banks will loan you the money. Of course banks are going to verify as they should but requiring 100K down on a POS in Edison, NJ or Irvine,CA would ruin their own business. Ain’t gonna happen.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:33 am
I laugh at you guys with the 20%. Towns like saddle river, alpine, manahasset, Manhattan, Park Slope where just plain average homes sell for around 1.5 million are really going to get spanked. Fannie/Freddie won’t be buying Jumbos anymore and the cheap alternatives like Thornburg that did them are dead. A 1.5 million dollar home will require a downpayment of over one million. I already see some homes in Hamptons for sale for around a million where owner states with 20% down he will provide owner financing for the difference to make it confirming. Do the math one million dollar home, 20% is 200k, max loan is 417K, total is 617K so seller if financing 383K to make it work. You are going to see more of those deals to sell vacant million dollar homes.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:33 am
Belmar, N.J. mayor takes shot at Staten Islanders
Guidos, Staten Island girls and blondes.
http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/07/belmar_nj_mayor_takes_shot_at.html
July 16th, 2008 at 8:36 am
# 21 “It is disgusting how credit card companies chase after college kids ”
What is disgusting, in my book, is how financially illiterate young adults are. They should have the ability to see that buying on credit while one’s income is low is a recipe for disaster. I don’t blame the credit card companies for going after the business. The chumps who buy into the buy-now-pay-later culture are the ones with the power to stop the train.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:40 am
Hi BC Bob,
Can you send details to higuava at gmail.
Thanks.
==========
BC Bob Says:
July 11th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Anybody fluent in Mandarin, looking for an entry level operations position? Positions in NY and NJ. You can get my email address from JB.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:45 am
BC Bob,
“If the idiots didn’t pull out equity to buy gas guzzlers, we would not be experiencing this problem today. They can bitch and moan all they want…”
Who are the bigger idiots? The people buying the houses or those that were lending them the money? 10 years ago if you were making 35k a year and had a 20% down payment you’d have a hard time finding someone to lend you the money to purchase a 500k home. Not to long ago someone with the same salary wouldn’t have a hard time finding a lender that would even lend them the down payment. It wasn’t the people looking to buy homes that drove up prices, it was the banks that were giving away bad loans that made prices rise like they did. The secondary and derivative mortgage markets were hungry for more and more subprime loan products and the banks were happy to oblige by giving them out to anyone that would ask. The lenders caused this mess, the government didn’t do anything to stop it even though they made some noise as early as 2001 about it.
The prudent aren’t going to be bailing out most homeowners. Most in bad shape will lose their homes or be able to modify their loans. Where the rest of us pay will be in the bail outs of these lenders. While it’s sad that these homeowners will lose their homes it’s really just like they wound up paying very large rents for a couple of years with nothing to show for it. That gets offset a bit by them being able to live rent free for a few months during the foreclosure process.
“The oil companies don’t determine the price of crude. It’s market driven. Blame the maestro’s. They devised this game plan. Who’s responsible for a currency that has lost over 40% of its value?”
The price of crude is only about 50% of the price of gasoline. The big gas companies are always saying it’s not their fault because the cost of refining has been going up due to increased demand and limited refining capabilities. They fail to mention that the big gas companies now are in charge of over 50% of the refining output and that their refining profits have increased dramatically. Taxes make up about a quarter of the price of gas and taxes have been going down to ease prices but refiners have actually been making more profits.
I don’t buy the whole refining capacity argument either. It’s not like there is rationing at the pump or long lines like a few decades ago. The gas companies don’t want to build more refineries but they have been increasing the output from their existing refineries and still making record profits.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:48 am
OK lets get back to naked shorting. I used to work in Sec Lending. Here is how it works most BDs will only make you actually borrow the shares if it is on their “hard to locate” list. Otherwise they just make an affermitive determination that they could locate the shares if they have to and let you trade away. Securities whose cusip is on afirmative determination that day get automatically processed. Now lets talk Reg T, normally you are stopped at only borrowing up to 50% on margin trades for this type of activity. But here is the kicker a short sale where you are borrowing from an away broker is exempt from REG T so you can borrow up to 98% and just get marked to marketed daily via loanet based on the DTC end of day value. But once again, the BDs have a way around that. For instance, SB DTC broker 6 has old GLs and shell BD numbers from the Solomon, Shearson 418, Hutton 467, numbers and sep GLs and blotters/P&S statments they still have on books. So technically your broker at Citi “borrows: from Solmon Brothers who made an affirmative determination they could locate stock. So then in your master Smith Barney Prime Brokerage account you can go short Fannie to the tune of 100 million by putting two million down. Of course SB credit department verifies via DB/S&P reports that the amount you are in for does not exceed you entire new worth or value of your company or hedge fund. In that case they make you start unwinding. Back in 2000 I saw stuff like DRKOOP and Pets.com being borrowed 6X and when original owner entered into loanet to get his stock back the person he loaned it to loaned it again and again and again. So much was the craziness that firms like Schwab back in March 2000 were technically intraday bankrupt according to net capital requirements.
Enjoy the ride.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:51 am
# 47 The hit those towns take will be in direct proportion to the artificial boot they received because of insanely
-easy credit terms since the mis 90s. The current “values” would never have been achieved absent the financing that was available. Any “spanking” should have been anticipated by anyone who was conscious and who had an ounce of fincial literacy.
Mrs. Shore and I watched people financing homes that they had no business buying and asking ourselves “what are they, and the bank thinking?” As it turns out, many were not thinking; they were caught up in a fairy tale. That folks who made very bad decisions may get hammered does not distress me in the least. As I sit in my paid off home, and look at zero debt, and incresed savings (even with the down market), I do not regret for one moment passing up opportunities to purchase various occasional-use properties that we looked at and just could not justify buying, given the prices.
Unless imprudence is punished in the marketplace, imprudence will rule.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:53 am
http://www.belmar.com/File_Library/Summer%20Rentals/july%204,%202008%20summer%20rental%20news.pdf
The original Belmar newsletter.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:55 am
NYT: Consumer Prices Surge 1.1% in June; Most Since ’82
July 16th, 2008 at 8:56 am
#40 BC Bob: Amen brother Bob.
And the arrogance and sense of entitolement that went along with this whole madness was simply shameful.
Everyday people driving around in expensive leased cars, massive home renovations, 3 and 4 vacations a year, with one of course being to the islands in the Winter, so you can come back with a tan in February.
No, no sympathy
July 16th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Rich: Thanks for yesterday’s information on that hosue in River Edge.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:57 am
#48 - lostinny - Great link. The full letter(.pdf warning) is hysterical.
July 16th, 2008 at 8:58 am
#52 I thought that the refineries had been at capacity for years. No production facility can run at 100% because of required maintenance and downtime. It was also my understanding that the oil companies haven’t built any new refineries because the permitting process makes it unprofitable for them to do so.
As far as the mortgage lenders and homebuyers go, I think both are to blame. They both went into these crazy loans with the delusion that they were prudent. A pox on both their houses.
Debt has increasingly permeated this economy for years and now it’s all coming apart at the seams and there isn’t a thing we as individuals can do about it except look out for ourselves and those we care about.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Ah damn I never did post the June sales data, did I.
I wasn’t going to say anything because I know that you have bigger things on your mind right now. However, I must say, the monthly sales charts is the NJREREPORT highlight of the month.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:04 am
54 Thanks Shore. I love the fact that they do that. I can’t wait to see what the SI @$$holes have to say in defending SI against Belmar.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:05 am
If you have good credit and good income, banks will loan you the money. Of course banks are going to verify as they should but requiring 100K down on a POS in Edison, NJ or Irvine,CA would ruin their own business. Ain’t gonna happen.
You obviously haven’t being looking to buy a house in 1993-1994. My friends were first time home buyers. First time they went to banker in 1993 - with about 2-3 years of work history and about 5% downpayment. They were literally laughed at.
20% down, ALL paystabs for last 3-4 years and such.
And banking systemn were in a lot better shape than it is now.
20% down minimum might come a lot quiker than you think… And If you do nto have 20% down - well than your rate will be A LOT HIGHER so it won’t make sense to buy.
Welcome to NORMAL Lending.
P.S> it will not kill housing - housing will just have to drop 20-30% off prices no - it will bring it backt to reality.
And May Be, Just may be we will see builders bulding STARTER HOMES/TOWNHOUSES again????
July 16th, 2008 at 9:05 am
58 Toshiro
Got it. So embarassing to have to utter the words I’m from SI when asked.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:08 am
Outofstater,
Every year we consume more and more gas yet every year the gas companies don’t seem to have a hard time keeping up. We don’t have a gas shortage. The gas companies are not applying for permits to build new refineries but are applying for permits to expand existing ones. Since 1975 I think there were only a a couple permits granted for new refineries according to this page that counters some oil myths.
Regarding financing, the majority of the problems are with non-prime loans. Non prime loans go to people with poor credit and generally have a hard time managing money. I’m not saying their not to blame but it’s like giving a can of gasoline to an arsonist and hoping everything will be ok.
We’re all going to feel the effects of the credit problems.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:13 am
#62 - 20% down minimum might come a lot quiker than you think… And If you do nto have 20% down - well than your rate will be A LOT HIGHER so it won’t make sense to buy.
Thanks Al. I was starting the write a long response about risk premiums but that sums it up nicely.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:15 am
As far as Gas guzzlers - current work force should be mobile, but home ownerships make it less mobile. Current solution - drive longer!!!
I moved 3 weeks ago to a new rental home 7 miles away from work. Love it! Before it was “22 miles - short commute”, according to people at work.
I haven’t fill my gas tank in 3 weeks!!!! And I think I will fill it up less than once a month now (according to my mileage ~400/15 gal Gas tank, 14 miles drive to work x 20 days = 280 miles. So I have 120 miles/month for groceries (on the way to work)/entertainment.
Even more importantly I haven’t realized the toll it was taking on me: I was arriving home/at work agitated, and upset and irritated and it would take me some time to unwind. Now I am arriving relaxed, and I have extra hour in my day!!!
High gas prices are no issue for me now.
Sell your house, move closer to work. It will also solve schools inequality problem as population will be a lot less segregated by race/income levels.
I think in the next 10 years we will witness
THE GREAT RESTRUCTURING OF AMERICAN SOCIETY IN A WAY NO ONE OF US CAN PREDICT/IMAGINE.
I do not know what it will be, but the suburban utopia in a way we know it is disappearing.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:20 am
#63 - I know what you mean. Of course, if you’ve lived on the island long enough you know it’s all the fault of uncouth people from Brooklyn and the Bronx.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:21 am
#45 NJGator:
And why did she have to take in a boarder?:
“Miss Terry bought her home six years ago, in a hilly neighborhood in northeast Baltimore, for $92,000, with a government-backed mortgage and monthly payments of about $800. She had never owned a home before, and was excited to move out of subsidized housing.
After two refinance loans, like many homeowners she does not understand her current mortgage, which is an interest-only loan. What she knows is that her payments are now more than $1,000 per month, and that she cannot afford them. ”
I’d be curious to know why she needed to refinance twice and does she own a new SUV and a plasma TV?
July 16th, 2008 at 9:23 am
Grim,
If no one else here commented on the mortgage overlord comments coming straight from the newsman from the Simpsons episode with the insects, I wanted to say that I liked it.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:25 am
Regarding financing, the majority of the problems are with non-prime loans. Non prime loans go to people with poor credit and generally have a hard time managing money.
Problems are concentrated in subprime Loans??? yea right. Check Alt-A, and NEg-ARMS or Any arms delinquency rates… \
They are PRIME!!!
http://www.huntingtonnews.net/columns/080606-kinchen-columnsmortgagebankers.html
“For example, while subprime ARMs represent 6 percent of the loans outstanding, they represented 39 percent of the foreclosures started during the first quarter. Prime ARMs represent 15 percent of the loans outstanding, but 23 percent of the foreclosures started. Out of the approximately 516,000 foreclosures started during the first quarter, subprime ARM loans accounted for about 195,000 and prime ARM loans 117,000, but the increase in prime ARM foreclosures exceeded subprime ARM foreclosures with increases of 29,000 and 20,000 respectively over the previous quarter.”
So the real reason - ARMS of all kinds!!!!
People took ARMS because housing prices were to high and they could nto afford Fixed rates. With neg arm you would be paying 900$/month PITI for first year on 600,000$ home. Thats your reason for Foreclosures!!!
July 16th, 2008 at 9:25 am
#40 BC Bob,
You forgot to mention granite, stainless, imported tile, plasma, entertainment rooms with stadium seating.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:27 am
# 55 But what is 13% inflation between friends.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:27 am
67 Toshiro
Yeah thats what they keep saying.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:34 am
# 71 “You forgot to mention granite”
In defense of granite, we have a kitchen that is in need of updating; things are wearing out. When one starts looking at counter material, it is amazing how little difference in price ther is between solid-surface tops and engineered stone, and there are a heck of a lot of solid-surface countertops that are more expensive than engineered stone. We found no difference in price between a high grade of granite and engineered stone. The only cheap alternative is laminate. Once one goes for anything else, the price is about the same. Mrs. Shore and I went into this process saying that there was no way we would get stone, now we have settled on it.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:34 am
LL you think saying your from SI is bad, try Garfield. I have acquired the habit of saying I’m from Bergen County, 15 miles from New York City. If they ask further I’m begrudgingly outed. Funny how your automatically judged based on where you grew up even though your nothing like the town’s populace. Wholly the reason I went to school in South Jersey to avaoid the stigmatism that comes with a Garfield address.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:35 am
So, with all the doom and gloom in the news this morning and the poor outlook for the economy, what does the market do this a.m.? It opens up?
July 16th, 2008 at 9:36 am
29 BC
“What about the idiotic Hope Now plan? How we fallen off the slope of Hope?”
It’s being re-tooled. It will be called Hope Later.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:36 am
75 Pain
I can’t even think of a way to phrase that. I mean what can I say? I’m in one of the boroughs? Big f’in deal. :)
July 16th, 2008 at 9:38 am
#75
Pain,
Too funny. I was once on a work lunch when I asked someone where they lived. They replied “Rutherford”. I said, “no way, I grew up there, where do you live”. To which he replied, “well then I should tell you I live in Passaic Park”. It was hysterical. He told me it was easier to just say Rutherford (right across the river) rather than deal with the heat he took from anyone who knew the area.
He grew up in Pennsylvania and only worked in NYC.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:38 am
I know people who stopped going on cruise ships because of HELOCs and cash out refi’s, what one once refined became a floating sizzler.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:40 am
re: #77 njpatient - send that one into Leno he is always looking for new writers.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:43 am
#64 Tom: The majority of the problems may be in sub-prime, but I know a few people who are or should I say were prime, who are having grave difficulties as well.
You are mistaken if you believe this is jut contaiend to sub-prime. Everyone was playing this game.\
Every homeowner I know has at least one HELOC, or home equity loan, some more than 1, and they have been using them aggressively.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:43 am
Al, you seem to have some of your facts and figures wrong.
“Problems are concentrated in subprime Loans??? yea right. Check Alt-A, and NEg-ARMS or Any arms delinquency rates… \
They are PRIME!!!”
Subprime aren’t the only non-prime loans. Alt-A loans are considered non-prime loans by the federal reserve bank of ny and most other people. Negative amortization doesn’t indicate whether a loan is prime or not. There are subprime, alt-a and prime negative amortization loans.
ARMs aren’t the only loans in trouble. In NJ 68.5% of subprime were and 45.8% of Alt-A mortgages were ARMS. According to this 2007 article 13.5% of US mortgages originated in 2006 were subprime compared to only 2.6% in 2000
The quote you provided doesn’t provide the whole picture. There are more prime loans than non-prime loans. Even though there were more prime ARM foreclosures than subprime ARM foreclosures, the percentage of subprime ARM foreclosures was much greater.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:46 am
77- ROFL!!
Damn you Shorts!! - Even Wells Fargo and Intel cant push the market up.
Miss those days when bad news used to be good news…
July 16th, 2008 at 9:49 am
3b:
“#64 Tom: The majority of the problems may be in sub-prime, but I know a few people who are or should I say were prime, who are having grave difficulties as well.”
You are mistaken if you think I think the majority of the problems may be in sub-prime. :) I probably didn’t word that correctly.
In my opinion, the majority of the problem is because lenders were eager to give out as much money as they could. This drove up the price of houses. When they weren’t giving out enough prime loans they turned to more alt-a and subprime loans to be able to keep up with the demand of mortgage backed securities.
The artificially inflated home prices hurt everybody.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:53 am
if 20% down is the new requirement, this basically eliminates almost all first time buyers. in reality, won’t FHA just own the market?
July 16th, 2008 at 9:54 am
The 2007 Alt-As are most troubling.
http://seekingalpha.com/wp-content/seekingalpha/images/alta_2.gif
July 16th, 2008 at 9:54 am
The artificially inflated home prices hurt everybody.
Wrong - they benefited greatly people who have sold their house in the 2004-2007 period. Many people got few hundreds of thousands Tax FREE.
And for immigrants from California -:) it is huge as they got 500K-1 MIL for thir houses. moved to cheaper locale, bought 200K very nice house, banked 300K…
Not bad - to get paid few hundred thousand for living in a house for few year. Who needs work???
July 16th, 2008 at 9:55 am
skep-tic Says:
July 16th, 2008 at 9:53 am
if 20% down is the new requirement, this basically eliminates almost all first time buyers. in reality, won’t FHA just own the market?
How long can goverment sponsor everybody’s housing before it goes bankrupt/ Hyper inflation starts???
July 16th, 2008 at 9:56 am
#17
“All the credit that’s been given to the lower and middle income groups to be able to live seemingly richer lives, winds up going up to the high income groups. ”
simple solution: live within your means.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:59 am
“Wrong - they benefited greatly people who have sold their house in the 2004-2007 period. Many people got few hundreds of thousands Tax FREE.”
Some people made out, including the banking executives, but it’s not over. What do you think is going to happen to the economy as more banks collapse and more tax dollars have to be put in to fix the problem?
Ok maybe it won’t “hurt everybody”, lets change that to, few people will be untouched by the effects.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:00 am
[16] NJP
Nom calls consumer sentiment a crisis, scotch the solution.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:01 am
#35
“it’s just time they stop bleeding us for all they can get and return the favor.”
do you understand that corporations owe a legal duty to shareholders to make money?
July 16th, 2008 at 10:04 am
I am new to the board… I posted this late last night…
Goto http://www.businessjive.com
Powerpoint, animation explaining in full detail how the shorts are crushing the markets with stock they do not even have ( said ) legal custody of…
Very sobering…
July 16th, 2008 at 10:06 am
#51
“The prudent aren’t going to be bailing out most homeowners. Most in bad shape will lose their homes or be able to modify their loans. Where the rest of us pay will be in the bail outs of these lenders.”
there is a loss in there. who takes it?
July 16th, 2008 at 10:06 am
Cindy :44
BC Bob - Let me know if I am understanding this mess correctly:
If the gov had reined in the mortgage companies when they should have (evidently they have had the power to do so since 1994 but only used it a few days ago) we would not be dealing with a mortgage crisis and only have the inflation issues which could be addressed with a raise in interest rates. But since we have the mortgage mess, a raising of rates would cripple the housing industry so everyone feels like they are in a double bind and have their hands are tied.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’m not BC Bob, (and I didn’t stay in a hotel last night) but I’ll give you my retrospective perspective.
You’re probably right when you think that if the government had managed the money supply better we wouldn’t be in the mess we see today. After 9/11 and the dotcom bubble, the economy needed a boost. Lower interest rates were the way to achieve that end. And Greenspan cut rates from 6% in Jan 2001 to 1.75% in December of that year. This created some nice returns starting in 2002 as measured by SP500.
The Fed kept the rates stable in that 1% area until summer of 2004, when they started raising in quarter point increments almost monthly til summer of 2006. Then they started cutting again, with some “panic” 3/4 points drops.
It is my opinion that it would have been better not to drop interest rates so low once the broad market started to rise in 2003, and not jerked around raising and lowering after that. A steady hand was needed, instead we “fed the beast” The economy was jumping and it was good.
But the economy is fed by consumer spending. The consumer was taking equity out of their homes in huge numbers to make their dream purchases. Cars, Trucks, Boats, Big TV’s.
This created a need for creative financing, thus was born the Mortgage “Broker”…whose sole function was to take applications and place the loan. Their paycheck was determined by how many loans they could close. And they were (and remain today) unlicensed and unregulated. A prescription for disaster. This is where the toxic loan products reached full bloom.
In hindsight, I think the easy money policies led to creative financing that put families in jeopardy. If you look at some of these foreclosure stories, there are some folks that could never have purchased the home they’re in today. These people should have been renters.
Stable Money Supply and reasonable lending practices could have avoided this mess.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:14 am
I cant wait for the human version.
http://www.physorg.com/news135003243.html
July 16th, 2008 at 10:16 am
yes there were macro factors at work, but at the end of the day every single person involved in this had a choice. no one had a gun held to their head saying “take this loan.” talking about these people as if they are children or halfwits who should be held responsible for their choices just because some people higher up the food chain also made bad choices is absurd.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:17 am
shouldn’t
July 16th, 2008 at 10:22 am
(95) Thank you Fiddy…granted “Stable money supply and reasonable lending practices could have avoided this mess…”
Now…Where do we go from here?..From what I understand they are starting to crack down on lending practices -way too late….
I want to know why they are not raising the rate from 2% to stem inflation?
My guess is that they are afraid of further job losses and the impact higher rates would have on an already battered housing market..
Is that why we are not having rates increase ala Volker?
July 16th, 2008 at 10:24 am
(100) make that Volcker…
July 16th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Cindy,
I think that what I heard this morning is that raising interest rates would further increase prices, until the USD strengthens. However, I must admit that I’m not sure I heard the analysis correctly.
I’ve been wondering the same thing.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:27 am
isnt the free market supposed to solve all of our problems?????? but what about the speculators driving up oil and all of the rouge shorters drive fannie and freddie to bring by naked shorting???? I am confused, is a free market a good or bad thing today?
July 16th, 2008 at 10:28 am
#48 lostinny
Who is dis guy kiddin? Does he knoe how much we spend on beer, cover charges, and hair gel in belmar?
July 16th, 2008 at 10:30 am
All I know is that people are going to lose jobs anyway because of inflation. People are going to lose homes because of inflation. If I want the fed to be concerned about anything it is inflation…
NOT the housing market.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:32 am
cindy,
raised rates would cause a marked increase in un employment and would seriously hit the real estate market. , it would be the stake through the heart, of that hasnt already happened. But the night is darkest before dawn. There is no way out of this situation without pain. we are heroin junkies who want to come clean without going through withdrawal. Not gonna happen!
July 16th, 2008 at 10:36 am
104 Mah peeps
Don’t you know there is no letter “r” in SI?
July 16th, 2008 at 10:37 am
skeptic:
“simple solution: live within your means.”
I agree with the last part but not that it’s simple. It’s not like these people decided to live beyond their means and strong armed the lenders into making that happen. The credit industry has been enabling and encouraging this practice. This has helped drive up prices in many areas which makes it harder for people that want to live within their means to do so. Around here, someone making 80-100k/yr should be able to live in a decent sized home for about $400k. I’m not talking a McMansion. Instead, the homes most people would consider decent were going for 600-700k. I’m talking about 1950’s capes and ranches that haven’t been remodeled. ANd as someone mentioned recently, look at what the credit card companies are doing to college kids, giving out credit by counting grants and scholarships as income. I remember when I was in college and being told this. I said, “I don’t get it, you know that money is already going to be spent, how can you give me credit based on money you know I won’t have?” Just got a blank stare and a sports cup.
“do you understand that corporations owe a legal duty to shareholders to make money?”
Yes, do you understand that you can’t do that by chasing short term gains at the expense of long term viability? These practices only benefit short term investors and executives that took large bonuses while the money was coming in.
“there is a loss in there. who takes it?”
The banks already sold off a percentage of their loans through institutions such as FannieMae, FreddieMac and the other smaller companies that sprung up. The JG Wentworths for banks. A number of mortgages were FHA insured. Banks that gave out deposit backed securities are have endangered their customer’s deposits and the FDIC may have to pony up to secure those deposits, like what’s going on with IndyMac. There are talks of other types of bailouts.
Nobody held a gun to the heads of lenders either. They chose to give out these loans where in the past they wouldn’t have. The extent of the problems indicates that there was more going on. I mean if you went out with any realtors during that time or talked to any loan officers or even watched tv you would have seen all the crap spewed to encourage people to buy, cash out equity, etc. One of my family members was house hunting and the way her realtor was talking you’d think everyone would have to buy a house now that they could barely afford because in another 2 years a starter home will be $1,000,000 and they couldn’t afford that.
People should have been smarter, but they’re not the only problem, not by a longshot.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:39 am
(106) Kettle1 - So we stay the course at 2% until……????? In the 70’s when Volcker raised the rates there was serious unemployment and many went out of business. Home loans were going for 14%. I guess I would rather see that than this slow death by inflation…Just sayin.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:40 am
#75 Pain
Garfield really is something to hide yourself from. I would do it too.
<– Lodi guy ;-)
Ah, who am I kidding. I hide my hometown too.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:40 am
err… buyers should have been smarter. There are probably other typos/errors in there but I tend to only proofread the last line after I post :)
July 16th, 2008 at 10:45 am
#102 sybarite: Raising interest rates will no raise house prices, only speed the decline.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:47 am
Skeptic, just think of it this way…
If you had $50million to invest in something, and you wound up lending to people you knew might have a hard time paying you back and you lose money, is it their fault for asking you for it, or yours for giving it?
July 16th, 2008 at 10:49 am
3b,
Sorry, I wasn’t referring to home prices, but rather consumer goods.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:51 am
another oil sell-off day!. $40+ is too far but it should be under 100 after summer.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Tom, it’s like you are saying, oh, banks made credit available– how are people supposed to resist?
Easy. Don’t buy things you can’t afford. No one owes you a house, a flat screen, new car, etc. Rent. I am renting and most of the people on this blog are renting. What is the problem with living within your means? Have we really devolved to the point where average people shouldn’t be expected to grasp this concept?
July 16th, 2008 at 10:53 am
#113
“If you had $50million to invest in something, and you wound up lending to people you knew might have a hard time paying you back and you lose money, is it their fault for asking you for it, or yours for giving it?”
It is BOTH of their fault, but the problem is that you and I (not them) are expected to take the loss.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:55 am
109 cindy,
I am suggesting that we immediately raise rates and continue to raise them! I am a huge fan of Volker. Such actions will be painful, but would be in out best interest
July 16th, 2008 at 10:59 am
#117 skep-tic
We are taken/will the loss in many ways.
1) Through higher taxes and more government debt to fund the coming bank bailouts
2) higher loan rates. Especially if the major mtg insurers go bust.
3) Higher costs of food & energy due to weakening dollar.
4) Lower value of dollar as the dollar is exported for trinkets and and baubles from overseas caused by an artificail demand created by loose lending policies and the heloc crowd.
I’d go on but I don’t want to depress myself.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Constituents must be lighting up the switchboards in Congress. The House Finance committee meeting this morning starring Bergabe are all using raised voices and talking about inflation. They all seem nervous, and are actually asking tough questions.
Barney Frank calling for second stimulus check and supplemental aid to state and local governments.
Ron Paul is up now.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:01 am
bi 115,
another oil sell-off day!. $40+ is too far but it should be under 100 after summer.
hmmm, i need to buy more energy stocks, before they jump up.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:06 am
(118) Kettle 1. I know no answers. I just feel like inflation is killing this country anyway - our dollar is a joke.
I DO live within my means but my means have changed. With no raise and the increases I continue to see in utilities, food and gas it doesn’t seem to matter that I still drive the Hyndai I bought in 2001 or live in the 1100 sq. ft. home I purchased in 1999. I have had to cut my standard of living….Not everyone got HELOCed up the ass but we are all suffering for it today.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:12 am
So is a GRIM appreciation GTG in order in the next few days????
(except saturday night, i’m on baby kettle duty)
July 16th, 2008 at 11:16 am
#122 Cindy
Exactly. This bust and the inflation that it is causing is going to hurt even the prudent.
The HELOC crew and those who lived right on the edge are going to get really hammered.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:17 am
“It is BOTH of their fault”
It’s both their fault but borrowers can ask for all they want and it doesn’t become a problem until the lenders start handing out cash.
“but the problem is that you and I (not them) are expected to take the loss.”
I agree it sucks and we had no say in what was going on. That’s why I feel the government should have protected our interest by putting a stop to this nonsense early on. When federal money is involved, our tax dollars, I feel they have a duty to do something.
I take issue with banks claiming “losses”. They made a ton of money during the boom. That money went to pay big commissions, salaries and bonuses to a lot of people. The money was going out too fast in my opinion for money that was being generated from such obviously risky practices. Non-prime loans by definition are riskier.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:20 am
actually, if congress has its way, the HELOC crew will not get hammered. they will get the value of their debt written down and a below market refi. but the gov’t is not going to confiscate all of the junk they spent their HELOC money on during the last 5 yrs
July 16th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Grim - I guess I picked the wrong day (yesterday) to post before reading any comments in the thread. So sorry to hear that you are going through a rough spot now. The Gators are ready, willing and able to help you drown your sorrows at an upcoming GTG.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:24 am
(124) Bairen - I guess I should count myself lucky but I do not see where it is going to end. Not at this rate anyway.
Well, at least I’ll say this for Bernanke…regulations are at least in place now on new mortgages and that is more than his predecessor did….
July 16th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Cindy Says:
July 16th, 2008 at 11:06 am
Not everyone got HELOCed up the ass but we are all suffering for it today.
C: now we finally have you talking as if you were from NJ!!!
July 16th, 2008 at 11:26 am
BC (34)-
I’m just looking for my shorts. Guess I need to go find some more.
Got SKF?
July 16th, 2008 at 11:27 am
(128) Hi Chicago! Yeah - You guys are definitely rubbing off on me… It’s a good thing..
July 16th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Sean (41)-
Been waiting for a while for all the BSDs to blame it all on Goldman.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:30 am
x (43)-
I’m with you. Not seeing that at all.
People who are light the downpayment can still go FHA, easy as you please.
Once Fannie/Freddie are nationalized, I think the whole conventional market goes back to 1957 underwriting standards, though.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:32 am
ICSC Predicts 144,000 Stores Will Shutter in 2008
Largest Percentage Increase in Store Closures in 14 Years
Read the article.
It’s a study in irony.
“we originally said 4500 stores will close”
“ooops, 144,000 will close instead”
“more stores will open, not to worry”
“we can count on the new stores, they are ‘new concepts’ from familiar names” (Starbucks, here we come again…)
July 16th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Clot (132)
All I’m seeing is a 5% reduction to max LTV for conventional in NJ (declining market policy)…now max 90%. That’s been here for a while
July 16th, 2008 at 11:34 am
John (52)-
Pardon me if this is too simplistic a question, but how do the BDs ultimately avoid the failure-to-deliver part…especially on long-term short positions?
July 16th, 2008 at 11:34 am
Clot (132)
As long as the mortgage insurers stay in business we’ll continue seeing LTV’s over 80%.
Should I short MGIC, Genworth, and Radian now?
July 16th, 2008 at 11:35 am
speaking of heloc’d up the a**…
I did some digging on an owner of a bldg I’m interested in…
63 mortgages and cancellations (pay off-most likely using new mortgage/heloc to pay off one being canceled)
in…what for it….8 years.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:36 am
x (134)-
Yep, that’s old hat. All the sharp guys are figuring out work-arounds to it.
Are you seeing lots of gifts and gifts-of-equity (Nehemiah & Nehemiah-style loans)?
Those are cool.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:36 am
oooops
s/b “Wait for it”
I’ll never make it on Broadway if I mess up the punch line…geez.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:38 am
x (136)-
I’d rather just short everything financial, via SKF.
You have a nice little entry point today. I think all the talk about naked shorting has scared some people out of this ETF, even though the talk doesn’t apply to this particular vehicle.
All disclaimers. After a few Knob Creeks, I also believe I can fly.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Tommy Boy: You are performing a good bit of grandstanding. Let me work to poke some holes….
“The price of crude is only about 50% of the price of gasoline. The big gas companies are always saying it’s not their fault because the cost of refining has been going up due to increased demand and limited refining capabilities. They fail to mention that the big gas companies now are in charge of over 50% of the refining output and that their refining profits have increased dramatically. Taxes make up about a quarter of the price of gas and taxes have been going down to ease prices but refiners have actually been making more profits.”
Have you reviewed the financial results of pure play refiners and also the integrateds that contain refining operations? If not, then you should.
Honestly, it is easy for someone in your position to complain. However, if this morass is viewed in holistic and historical perspective, I don’t see what the big deal is.
You demand precision from individuals that have at best blunt force instruments, and at besy indirect control of the actors in the market.
I openly agree that there are a whole host of people who are culpable, certainly even criminally. However, you should worry less about what government owes the people, or what some evil gordon gekkos in the corner office have done, and more about YOU as an informed actor CAN PERSONALLY DO to take advantage, or else if altruism is a priority, then HELP OTHERS.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:40 am
x (136)-
“Should I short MGIC, Genworth, and Radian now?”
Come to think of it, that should qualify as mutilation of a corpse.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:40 am
FHA loans are nonsense. Most of BC and Nassau County even middle class starter run down homes are still 500K and livable homes, older renov on a 60 by 100 plot with 4 bedrooms with run you 750K, the FHA limits make you put down a ton that most people don;t have. So FHA props up houses in the sticks or crap houses. For us who work in NYC and want a decent commute and good schools it is not of any help. The good houses are over the limit and want 20% and no loan over 417K. In fact I looked at an estate sale recently that was for sale for 750K that had a buyer with 20% down. She was willing to take offers for less than that offer if it was non contingent upon sale of another house and buyer could show they were taking a mortgage less than 417K as evidenced by proof of evidence of 333K plus closing costs in bank. So the did not get that so they sold to 20% person who paid 5-10K extra plus they have a higher interest rate. The buyer is out money on day one and is paying extra each month for 30 years. Big deal on 20%.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:40 am
the house looks damn good, but the sale price seems too good to be true
In cases like that, it usually is. We started looking to buy end of May of this year and on only the second day of looking we walked into this fantastic house. We walked in and basically said, “this is the one, we can’t believe we found it so quick”. The house was a 3 bed 2 bath mint condition cape with completely finished basement and HUGE backyard. The price was $299,000. We freaked. We were ready to offer full asking. The house sold for $340,000 in 2004 and i was excited to be getting it for $40,000 less than the 2004 sale price. We later found out that day that the house was a short sale and the guy had 3 mortgages! We also found out that day there were 5 people going back and forth on the house. I wasn’t even going to fathom the idea of a bidding war in this market. I’m sure it still went for under 2004 asking.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:42 am
They just do a buy in notice or Clotpoll Says:
July 16th, 2008 at 11:34 am
John (52)-
Pardon me if this is too simplistic a question, but how do the BDs ultimately avoid the failure-to-deliver part…especially on long-term short positions?
July 16th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Clot (138)
I’m in I.T. now and work on the loan origination system. I don’t really watch what comes in the door anymore…thankfully
You can’t do gifts-of-equity to manipulate LTV unless it’s a non-arm’s length transaction, which is only a small % of total deals out there. I think it can only come from a direct relative too…no cousin’s. I guess the sellers could always claim they’re related to they buyers. I’ll bet there are plenty of underwriters who would believe it.
“My name is Mr Wong and Mr Galackiewitz is my son”
The best stories of gift funds come from the Hacidics in Brooklyn and the Asians in Fort Lee…always come up with 6 gift letters from 6 cousins.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:46 am
97 skep
“talking about these people as if they are children or halfwits who should[n't] be held responsible for their choices just because some people higher up the food chain also made bad choices is absurd.”
Agreed, and speaking of which, we should give out medals for wit to each of these people. I’d give them each half a medal.
July 16th, 2008 at 11:47 am
#147 njp
Would you give them the front or the back of the medal? :)
July 16th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Clot (140)
I was looking at SKF lately but figured the real money has already been made in that one. I did buy some SH, however, which is counter to S&P 500.
All disclaimers apply
July 16th, 2008 at 11:57 am
chicagofinance Says:
July 16th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Tommy Boy:
That’s where I stopped reading.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
just watched the cspan feed. it sounds like some of the politicos are starting to get a little nervous
July 16th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
[149] If everyone here is right, it should be going higher.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
[140] That’s my drink of choice as well. Cheers.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
(152) it’s correcting right now… down almost 25 per share.
it’s gonna remain extremely volatile while the financials’ boat is getting rocked.
lots to be made (with caution) and liberal use of buy/sell limits. Don’t be greedy, just make money.
the usual disclaimers: I’m just a turnip who fell off the haystack… don’t listen to me.
sl
July 16th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
“FHA loans are nonsense. Most of BC and Nassau County even middle class starter run down homes are still 500K and livable homes, older renov on a 60 by 100 plot with 4 bedrooms with run you 750K”
correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the new FHA limit for the NYC metro area 729k?
July 16th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
[123] Kettle,
I don’t know if a mini-GTG just happened or not, but for a Grim Appreciation GTG, we would have to get Grim in on it.
I am in the City on friday after work, so city works for me then.
I haven’t yet attended a GTG so Grim, Patient, BC, and Kettle are on my list for rounds 1-3 (and probably to round 7 in Grim’s case. Perhaps I should just buy the bottle).
Thoughts??? Suggestions??? I know there was just a GTG but this is for Grim, folks.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
please see the below link for current FHA limits in NY. Current for NYC area is $729,750
https://entp.hud.gov/idapp/html/hicost1.cfm
July 16th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
I bought early 2000. Had to have 20% down, and hit the 28/33 rule. It was brutal. They found an unpaid medical bill from 1989 for $87. that I had not paid; that was a bfd and I had lots of ’splainin’ to do! I sold in 2006 (yippee!) and have been a happy renter since.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
I left out ChiFi and barien on the drinks list. My bad.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=2008
New egghead stuff on subprime.
The FHA limit is “technically 729K but hardly anyone is doing it and it expires at year end.
The easy short money has been made and now it is the retail investors jumping late on the bandwagon. They are going to get smoked harder than a bong in a cheech and chong movie.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
if max mortgage is $729,750 and you can put a minimum of 3% down, this would allow you to buy a $752,000 home in the NYC area. You just need to come up with roughly $23,000 DP. this is still pretty loose credit if you ask me
July 16th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Yea go to chase.com and enter a mortgage great than 417K in Nassau and watch the jumbo rate come up. Fannie/Freddie/Hud don’t set the rates. Just cause they will buy it does not help your rate on about 417K, that is whey jumbo loans are still dead.
July 16th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Except for the fact you need a 292K income to pay the mortgage.
skep-tic Says:
July 16th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
if max mortgage is $729,750 and you can put a minimum of 3% down, this would allow you to buy a $752,000 home in the NYC area. You just need to come up with roughly $23,000 DP. this is still pretty loose credit if you ask me
July 16th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
[1]
“That legislation “was not enough to turn around the perception of the state’s business climate,” Sen. Joseph Kyrillos (R-Monmouth) said.”
Ya think?
Boy, when high-tax, high-cost Philadelphia can be made attractive to business, that is how you know NJ really sucks. For years, the flow was the other way, out of Philadelphia, because of ridiculous city taxes. Of course, this deal would not have happened without the KOZ incentive but, damn, Rendell is still eating Corzine’s lunch and hasn’t even moved on to dessert yet.
And who wouldn’t prefer Philadelphia over New Brunswick? Like its a close choice???
July 16th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
documenting income definitely is a current nail in the coffin for housing. when downpayments really go up to a minimum of 20% we will see sales completely crash. I am just saying we do not seem to be there yet. please anyone who does this for a living correct me
July 16th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
#159 nom,
no worries. Looking forward to meeting you at a GTG.
July 16th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
From MarketWatch
HOME-BUILDERS INDEX SLIDES TO RECORD LOW; NO NEAR-TERM TURNAROUND SEEN
The home builders’ sentiment index fell two points in July to record-low 16, with all three components of the survey also dropping to historic lows, the National Association of Home Builders reported Wednesday. At 16, the NAHB/Wells Fargo housing market index shows that only one-in-six home builders has a positive view of the market. New subdivisions have become ghost towns, with current sales dropp