Thu 17 Jul 2008
From Newsday:
Forecast says NJ in recession until early 2010
New Jersey is more than a half-year into a mild recession that should end in early 2010, according to a Rutgers University economic forecast released Wednesday.
The state will lose about 20,000 jobs beyond the 10,000 already lost this year before a recovery begins, said the semiannual report of the Rutgers Economic Advisory Service.
The report appears to be the first analysis to claim that New Jersey is in recession and describe its breadth and magnitude.
“The state’s job base has barely changed since the beginning of 2006, while employment in the U.S. continued to grow until December 2007,” said Nancy Mantell, the service’s director.
…
A recession is generally considered two consecutive quarters of falling gross domestic product, so confirmation occurs after a recession has started. No such measure is available for New Jersey, so the Rutgers assessment is based largely on job losses, Mantell said.New figures Wednesday from the state Labor Department presented an even harsher picture than the Rutgers report, finding that New Jersey lost 14,100 jobs in the first half of the year.
…
The report comes as residents of New Jersey and the nation cope with growing unemployment, rising prices for gasoline and food, but falling prices for real estate.“Things are going to be a little tight for a while. But compared to the national recession, we don’t think this will be as bad,” Mantell said.
Gov. Jon S. Corzine and others have said the nation has already entered a recession. The acting chief of the governor’s Office of Economic Growth, Angie McGuire, on Wednesday said the administration has taken steps to address tough conditions, including cutting spending in the state budget that took effect July 1.
From the Asbury Park Press:
New Jersey’s economy, struggling with soaring energy costs and a faltering housing market, is headed for a mild recession that will last until 2010, Rutgers University researchers said Wednesday.
The prediction of impending job losses puts off any hope of a recovery in the real estate market. Housing prices are expected to fall 12 percent to 15 percent during the next year, experts said.
“I wish the outlook were otherwise,” said Patrick J. O’Keefe, a director at J.H. Cohn, an accounting firm, and the former chief executive officer of the New Jersey Builders Association. “But the laws of gravity that govern the relationship between household income and home prices can only be suspended for so long.”
…
The outlook is grim. Nancy Mantell, director of the Rutgers Economic Advisory Service, said she expects the state to fall into a recession later this year that will last about nine quarters — into 2010 — and cause it to lose about 31,000 jobs.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:22 am
From the Star Ledger:
N.J. lost 4,100 jobs in June
New Jersey employers shed 4,100 jobs last month, largely in manufacturing work tied to the struggling housing market, according to state data released this afternoon.
The state’s unemployment rate fell a tick to 5.3 percent in June, and remained below the national rate of 5.5 percent, the New Jersey Department of Labor and Workforce Development said. But the N.J. jobless rate still stands at a higher level than it has for the past 12 months, aside from a sharp spike in May. In June 2007, for example, the rate stood at 4.2 percent.
All of the job losses came from the private sector. The public sector added a net 100 positions, driven by an increase of 400 jobs in local government, the state said. Federal jobs in New Jersey fell in June, while state government jobs were flat.
“New Jersey’s employment situation over the first half of the year was directly in line with the job losses that occurred nationally,” New Jersey Labor Commissioner David Socolow said in a statement. “During the first six months of 2008, New Jersey’s total nonfarm employment declined by a total of 14,100 jobs, or 0.35 percent, while the nation lost 438,000 jobs, or 0.32 percent over the same period.”
July 17th, 2008 at 6:23 am
From the Guardian:
Wall Street Journal to axe 50 journalist posts
The Wall Street Journal is to cut 50 journalist posts in a restructure to centralise the editing of the paper in print and online, its managing editor, Robert Thomson, has revealed in a memo to staff.
Most of the editorial cuts will come from the WSJ’s office in South Brunswick, New Jersey, which was set up following the September 11 terrorist attacks near the newspaper’s Manhattan headquarters.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:24 am
From Bloomberg:
Not Even Corzine’s Goldman Resume Could Help Him Erase Deficit
New Jersey Governor Jon Corzine said in November he was willing to lose his job if that’s what it took to cut the state’s $32 billion debt load. Now, the former Wall Street bond trader says more borrowing is inevitable.
“It may be possible that we need to grow debt if there are capital projects we have to do and we don’t have any other way to fund them,” Corzine, a first-term Democrat who is starting his re-election campaign, said in an interview.
New Jersey, whose median household income of $64,470 is second only to Maryland, is one of 29 states that ran short of revenue to balance this year’s budget, up from three in 2006, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities in Washington found. Lawmakers across the country, who previously sought to trim debt and cut taxes, are instead increasing borrowing as the slowest economy since 2001 erodes consumer spending and home values.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:25 am
We need a name for it. The Great Depression is already taken.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:26 am
From the Trenton Times:
State continues to lose jobs
A forecast of continued shakeout in New Jersey’s housing market was provided during the Rutgers briefing in New Brunswick yesterday by Patrick O’Keefe, director of the Roseland accounting firm J.H. Cohn, and former executive direc tor of the New Jersey Builders Association.
O’Keefe said that New Jersey home prices, which began falling in 2005, will fall by another 12 percent to 15 percent over the next 12 months, then remain flat through 2010, at which point, “prices in New Jersey will be 27 to 30 percent below the peak they hit in 2007.”
July 17th, 2008 at 6:27 am
Boy, I remember the days when saying home prices would fall 30% would be enough to raise a torch-wielding mob.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:33 am
#6 grim,
I think that O’keefe guy is being too optimistic.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:35 am
“New Jersey is more than a half-year into a mild recession that should end in early 2010,”
Has there ever been a 2 year long recession that was “mild”?
July 17th, 2008 at 6:36 am
From the Record:
NJ job losses will continue, expert says
New Jersey is more than a half-year into a mild recession that should end in early 2010, according to a Rutgers University economic forecast released today.
The state has added few jobs since the beginning of 2006, said economist Nancy Mantell of the Rutgers Economic Advisory Service (R/ECON). And she predicted that over the next two years, it will lose 31,000 jobs from the employment peak of 4.08 million jobs in the fourth quarter of 2007.
The Bergen-Hudson-Passaic labor area gained only 500 jobs between May 2007 and May 2008, with losses in manufacturing nearly outweighing gains in private services and government. Rutgers expects the area to lose about 6,000 jobs between 2007 and 2009, and then pick up about 40,000 from 2009 to 2018.
Mantell predicted that the state’s economy will begin turning around in 2010, and that by mid-2011, the state will have recovered the lost jobs.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:43 am
4. DL Says:
July 17th, 2008 at 6:25 am
We need a name for it. The Great Depression is already taken.
“The Final Depression - Greenspan’s Folly”
July 17th, 2008 at 6:44 am
For Bi, from the WSJ:
J.P. Morgan posted a 53% fall in net income as the firm recorded $1.1 billion in mortgage-related markdowns.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:44 am
Seems like some new ideas are coming forward.
http://www.pickensplan.com/
July 17th, 2008 at 6:53 am
Towns in Hunterdon, Somerset, Warren counties join challenge to affordable-housing rules
A group of 19 municipalities in Somerset, Hunterdon, Warren, Morris, Essex, and Monmouth counties on Tuesday filed an appeal in state Superior Court against the new Council on Affordable Housing (COAH) regulations published on June 2, the same day an appeal was filed by the New Jersey State League of Municipalities on behalf of all 566 communities.
The municipalities include Clinton Township, Bedminster, Bernards Township, Bernardsville, Bethlehem, Bridgewater, Town of Clinton, Greenwich, Hanover Township, Millstone Township, Montgomery, Peapack-Gladstone, Readington Township, Roseland, Roxbury, Union Township, Warren Township, Watchung and Wharton.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:55 am
New Jersey Regional Coalition wins historic housing victory
On Thursday, July 17, 2008 at 2 p.m., Governor Jon Corzine will sign one of the most important changes to New Jersey’s affordable housing laws since the Fair Housing Act was passed in 1985.
The centerpiece of the recent legislation is the abolition of regional contribution agreements (RCA), which have allowed wealthy municipalities to pay poor municipalities to accept their affordable housing obligation. This law helped perpetuate segregation and increased the concentration of poverty in our inner-cities.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:56 am
“faltering housing market”
I’m not too fond of comments like that in the press. The problem isn’t that housing prices are falling it’s that they rose so high.
If you were sick, you’d be concerned when your temperature was going up and happy when it’s going down not the other way around.
July 17th, 2008 at 6:58 am
From Bloomberg:
IndyMac’s Failure May Prompt Rush to Withdraw Bank Deposits
IndyMac Bancorp Inc.’s collapse may spur withdrawals from banks ranging from First BanCorp in Puerto Rico to Los Angeles-based Nara Bancorp Inc. as customers trim accounts below the $100,000 limit on deposit insurance, according to Sandler O’Neill & Partners LP.
“IndyMac’s failure has people worried about others,” Mark Fitzgibbon, a principal at Sandler O’Neill, said in an interview. Fitzgibbon told clients in a report this week that signs of weakness may prompt customers “to more actively move deposits to banks that are perceived to be healthier.”
The result could be a liquidity squeeze at banks that rely on “jumbo” deposits, Fitzgibbon said. His report, published July 15, included more than 50 companies with jumbo time accounts, typically certificates of deposit, that exceeded 25 percent of first-quarter deposits.
July 17th, 2008 at 7:00 am
This one is a day old, but I don’t think it was posted..
From Bloomberg:
Hamptons House Prices Fall Amid Wall Street’s Decline
The Hamptons housing market is feeling the heat of Wall Street’s meltdown.
Second-quarter sales volume dropped 29 percent and the median price fell 11 percent to $735,000 from a year earlier in the resort communities on the East End of New York’s Long Island, Suffolk Research Service Inc. said in a report today.
Transactions are dropping as financial firms have cut more than 93,000 jobs and taken more than $416 billion in mortgage- related losses and writedowns. The retreat in global stock markets, waning consumer confidence and the deepening housing recession are also keeping prospective buyers at bay.
“People are buying with their heads much more,” said Diane Saatchi, a senior vice president of New York-based brokers Corcoran Group. “Their lifestyles are very much the same, but people are being much more cautious.”
The median price, the level at which half the homes in a market sell for more and half sell for less, changed because fewer high-end houses traded hands, Saatchi said. That doesn’t mean values are necessarily falling, she said.
“Last year’s $2 million house is still this year’s $2 million house,” Saatchi said. “The difference is this year nobody bought it.”
July 17th, 2008 at 7:02 am
What’s the guess on when NJ goes bankrupt?
2015?
July 17th, 2008 at 7:09 am
#18 laughing
it will never happen. Debt is the new wealth you know
/ off sarcasm
July 17th, 2008 at 7:10 am
Horray! Now we can all buy that coveted house in Upper Haughtyville for pennies on the dollar…nah, we won’t have jobs. I guess we will all have to live on our down payments.
July 17th, 2008 at 7:12 am
“Boy, I remember the days when saying home prices would fall 30% would be enough to raise a torch-wielding mob.”
LOL. When I first came on this site and stated 30-40% off peak, even the bears thought I was delusional.
The bulls at that time? HMMM, where are they?
July 17th, 2008 at 7:17 am
“faltering housing market”
“I’m not too fond of comments like that in the press.”
Tom,
How did they report the market on the way up? Actually, faltering is very conservative. It’s a major bust.
July 17th, 2008 at 7:20 am
JB,
Can’t make the GTG on Friday. I’m heading down to LBI. Alternative site, how about The Terrace Tavern?
July 17th, 2008 at 7:22 am
I want to recall my previous statement about not having jobs, I completely forgot about Meadowlands Xanadu which will create about 20,000 jobs in Northern NJ (which means under the new COACH regulations the towns within the Meadowlands district will have to provide affordable housing for us all!)
Gotta love NJ
July 17th, 2008 at 7:23 am
“How did they report the market on the way up? Actually, faltering is very conservative. It’s a major bust.”
On the way up everything was peachy. Now’s the problem according to what you hear.
People don’t seem to understand that if you gorge yourself for so long, you can’t just keep it all in. That’s why the housing market is in the toilet :)
July 17th, 2008 at 7:24 am
how much trouble is carla in?
July 17th, 2008 at 7:25 am
(4) DL (10) Confused
“We need a new name for it. The Great Depression is already taken.”
Greenspan’s Grand Depression
The motto: “Brother can you spare me $1,000?” or
“Brother can you spare me a grand?”
July 17th, 2008 at 7:31 am
“The Mess That Greenspan Made”, but I think it might be taken..
July 17th, 2008 at 7:32 am
Fannie and Freddie Are Largely Responsible for the Housing Bubble
July 17th, 2008 at 7:32 am
When Obama gets elected he will fix everything and we will once again be in 2005! Good times ahead folks.
July 17th, 2008 at 7:32 am
“People don’t seem to understand that if you gorge yourself for so long, you can’t just keep it all in. That’s why the housing market is in the toilet :)”
Tom,
I agree. Kind of like an overloaded septic tank. You can only fill it with X amount of —-.
July 17th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Since we are on themes;
2007- Year of the denial.
2008- Year of the reaction.
July 17th, 2008 at 7:35 am
It seems like forever ago - 2006.
Being laughed at for some pretty silly (at the time) things I believed about the future of house prices.
My bad prediction was that I thought interest rates would be much higher by now.
July 17th, 2008 at 7:35 am
Fannie and Freddie go broke
July 17th, 2008 at 7:42 am
Fear the hearts of men are failing
These our latter days we know
The great depression now is spreading
God’s word declared it would be so
I’m going where there’s no depression
To a better land that’s free from care
I’ll leave this world of toil and trouble
My home’s in heaven
I’m going there
In this dark hour, midnight nearing
The tribulation time will come
The storms will hurl the midnight fear
And sweep lost millions to their doom
I’m going where there’s no depression
To a better land that’s free from care
I’ll leave this world of toil and trouble
My home’s in heaven
I’m going there
I’m going where there’s no depression
To a better land that’s free from care
I’ll leave this world of toil and trouble
My home’s in heaven
I’m going there
–No Depression, UNCLE TUPELO
July 17th, 2008 at 7:42 am
ThE GrEaT CrUnCh
July 17th, 2008 at 7:45 am
Essex,
Worth mentioning that the Uncle Tupelo version is a cover of A.P. Carters’ “No Depression in Heaven” (1936).
I admit, the Tupelo version is one of my favorite alt-country/bluegrass tunes.
July 17th, 2008 at 7:46 am
…And I always thought Recess was the happy time during school days…
Stop making the GTG’s on days where we have plans, damnit!
-R
July 17th, 2008 at 7:51 am
THE RIGHTEOUS PATH
I got a brand new car that drinks a bunch of gas
I got a house in a neighborhood that’s fading fast
I got a dog and a cat that don’t fight too much
I got a few hundred channels to keep me in touch
I got a beautiful wife and three tow-headed kids
I got a couple of big secrets I’d kill to keep hid
I don’t know God but I fear his wrath
I’m trying to keep focused on the righteous path
I got a couple of opinions that I hold dear
A whole lot of debt and a whole lot of fear
I got an itch that needs scratching but it feels alright
I got the need to blow it out on Saturday night
I got a grill in the backyard and a case of beers
I got a boat that ain’t seen the water in years
More bills than money, I can do the math
I’m trying to keep focused on the righteous path
I’m trying to keep focused as I drive down the road
On the ditches and the curves and the heavy load
Ain’t bitching bout things that aren’t in my grasp
Just trying to hold steady on the righteous path
There’s this friend of mine I’ve known all my life
Who can’t get it right no matter how hard he tries
He’s got kids he don’t see and several ex-wives
And a list of bad decisions bout eight miles wide
Trouble with the law and the IRS
And where he’ll get the money’s anybody’s guess
He’s a long way off but if you was to ask
He’d say he’s trying to stay focused on the righteous path
Trying to keep focused as we drive down the road
Like we did back in High School before the world turned cold
Now the brakes are thin and the curves are fast
We’re trying to hold steady on the righteous path
We’re hanging out and we’re hanging on
We’re trying the best we can to keep keeping on
We got messed up minds for these messed up times
And it’s a thin thin line separating his from mine
Trying to hold steady on the righteous path
80 miles and hour with a worn out map
No time for self-pity or self-righteous crap
Trying to stay focused on the righteous path
Drive By-Truckers
July 17th, 2008 at 7:56 am
I’m holding out for the McSorley’s GTG!! Or, the next one in the big apple.
Wee one needs another surgery, so we’re taking her on a pre-op surgical tour, one f’n plan I wish I could cancel! Still paying off the last surgery, discovering the yoke of debt servitude for the first time.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:03 am
Ref 17: “Last year’s $2 million house is still this year’s $2 million house,” Saatchi said. “The difference is this year nobody bought it.”
Excuse me, but doesn’t that make it less than a $2 million house?
July 17th, 2008 at 8:04 am
No bear market in NJ public servant jobs;
“Orange mayor quadruples his salary with move. On leave as W. Orange cop, but adds $76,000 salary as civilian fire director”
http://www.nj.com/starledger/stories/index.ssf?/base/news-5/1216269395262650.xml&coll=1
July 17th, 2008 at 8:10 am
skep-tic Says:
July 16th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
I also think people in the U.S. are highly aware of the fact that securing a decent lifestyle is becoming more and more difficult. This expresses itself in a variety of ways, the most interesting of which, I think, is the inclinition of ordinary Americans to take greater and greater risks financially.
I think the rise of gambling as a form of mass entertain at the same time as two consecutive bubbles formed is very interesting. I also find it interesting that financial services became an increasingly larger part of our GDP during this time.
Americans seemed to have grasped that a major economic shift is taking place that they are virtually powerless to avoid getting hurt by. So they dream of winning money at casinos, in the lottery, day trading, flipping houses, etc. They encourage their children to go to Wall St instead of med school. On the flip side, they are resentful of the people who are managing to benefit from the shift and seem increasingly inclined to appeal to socialism when it becomes clear (as is happening now) that they are unable to benefit from the game long term.
I guess what I am saying is that as the world is becoming more capitalistic, Americans seem increasingly unable to distinguish between capitalism and gambling, and when they fail at gambling, they blame capitalism.
skep: Outstanding post, and you are about 10x more diplomatic that I am. The GPS may actually listen to you.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:12 am
Pat: you are a gem
July 17th, 2008 at 8:12 am
grim unmod
July 17th, 2008 at 8:14 am
“Not Even Corzine’s Goldman Resume Could Help Him Erase Deficit ”
Why not borrow the money? NJ muni rates are so low it only make sense to borrow now and pay for it few years with inflated dollars.
It’s a brilliant idea, our governor is a genius.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:14 am
“Misery hasn’t had this much company in more than 15 years.”
“The jump in consumer prices reported today by the Labor Department means the so-called Misery Index, the sum of the unemployment and inflation rates, is the highest since President Bill Clinton took office in January 1993. The measure, created by Arthur Okun, an economics adviser to President Lyndon Johnson, rose to 10.5 in June from 9.7 in the prior month.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHXJY.fS72Ss&refer=home
July 17th, 2008 at 8:18 am
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07172008/sports/yankees/a_rod__madge_honored_120224.htm
July 17th, 2008 at 8:20 am
40 Sassy
I hope the little one is better soon.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:20 am
Sorry Grim. I’ll be in Deliverance land this weekend. Riding horsies and shooting guns! Yeehaw!
July 17th, 2008 at 8:21 am
When Obama gets elected he will fix everything and we will once again be in 2005! Good times ahead folks.
I’ll take the Clinton 90s again. He too had to clean up Bush’s mess, but it was gravy after that.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:23 am
JP - 2Q Credit loss prov $3.45 B vs $1.53
- 2q Home Eq charge-offs $511M va 98M
- 2Q $1.1B mark down at IB
- Lvl 3 assets now 7% of total assets up from 6%.
So it’s bad, the deterioration is accelerating and they’re still hiding huge losses. Should be an up day for them.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:24 am
“Some of the world’s largest sovereign wealth funds are seeking to reduce their exposure to the US dollar in a sign of global concern about the currency.”
“One big sovereign fund in the Gulf has cut its dollar-denominated holdings from more than 80 per cent a year ago to less than 60 per cent, while China’s State Administration of Foreign Exchange (SAFE) has been looking to strike deals with private equity firms in Europe as a part of a strategy to reduce its dollar holdings.”
“Behind the scenes, fund officials are questioning the credibility of the Federal Reserve and US Treasury in defending the dollar and maintaining financial stability”
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1f51a6de-539b-11dd-8dd2-000077b07658.html
July 17th, 2008 at 8:27 am
I’m not a Jersey guy (from Va), and i mostly don’t like the shore, but i found long beach island pretty awesome. good eats. quiet. nice beach. YOU DON’T HAVE TO PAY TO GO ON THE BEACH. went there for labor day and stayed at the best B&B we’ve ever stayed at. nice town.
if we are looking to buy anywhere at the shore, that’d be my first choice. spring lake is 2nd … but it’s way, way out of our price range.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:28 am
Morgan had estimated up to $1 bln gain from Bear deal
Its a bull market baby!!! Lets crush the long oil short financials crowd this week!!!!
July 17th, 2008 at 8:30 am
I read someplace, I disremember where, but we are not having a recession or decession or reflation or repression or some kind of infarction.
The current “worry” has now reached epic proportions which may turn out to be global stagflation - a phenomenon never before encountered, and still yet unnamed.
I was thinking we should call it “nullflation” or “dammflation” or perhaps “divorceflation”, but I am sure some economic professor from some highbrow English University will come up with something catchier.
Yes unfun, no bonus, no vacation, and no nookie, global stagflation. After all in these times of no consequences or responsibility who needs to have a localized depression?
July 17th, 2008 at 8:32 am
52 Laughing
LBI would be my first choice too. Unfortunately, its completely out of the way for us. But I so enjoy it when I’m there.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Housing starts up 9.1% mom (-26.9% yoy). It gets even more interesting when you look into the details.
08:31 17Jul2008 RTRS-US June housing starts up 9.1 pct; NY code cited
WASHINGTON, July 17 (Reuters) - U.S. home building projects started in June surprisingly rose 9.1 percent due chiefly to a change in New York City building codes that, if it were ignored, would have seen starts decrease by 4.0 percent, a government report said on Thursday.
The Commerce Department said housing starts set an annual pace of 1.066 units in June, the highest since February. Economists polled ahead of the report were expecting a 960,000 unit rate.
New York City enacted a new set of construction codes effective July 1, that largely explained an 11.6 percent increase in building permits and the starts number, the government said.
Excluding multifamily data in the Northeast, the government said, there was a 0.7 percent increase in permits and a 4.0 percent decrease in housing starts in June.
Building permits climbed to 1.091 million, higher than the 960,000 expected by economists.
(Reporting by Patrick Rucker, editing by Joanne Morrison)
July 17th, 2008 at 8:37 am
Clotpoll,
Please let me know when you sell your SKF for a loss.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:40 am
I like acronyms so here’s my attempt for an(before a second cup of coffee)alternative name for the US economy:
The Great H.U.R.L.E
Housing
Underwater
Recession
Lost
Economy
July 17th, 2008 at 8:47 am
15 mins till the market opens … what’s the prediction for today? up? down?
absolutely random bi-like prediction:
down 45 points for the day.
(of note: You guys know your stuff so well that I’ve found myself watching CNBC in the middle of the day and laughing at quotes like, ‘have we reached the bottom?’)
July 17th, 2008 at 8:48 am
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB121581623724947273.html?mod=9_0001_b_this_weeks_magazine_home_top&page=sp
http://seekingalpha.com/article/84770-housing-barron-s-calls-a-bottom?source=yahoo
July 17th, 2008 at 8:49 am
grim unmod 60.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:49 am
re #59 Frank, can you do us all a big favor and please predict the outcome of Fannie and Freddie.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:54 am
“The Great H.U.R.L.E”
Rock Chalk [58],
Next time I see you, remind me about the above.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:54 am
LOL. When I first came on this site and stated 30-40% off peak, even the bears thought I was delusional.
The bulls at that time? HMMM, where are they
I changed my religion!
July 17th, 2008 at 8:56 am
BC, {51}
The great bubble called the US Dollar is searching for a pin. Just a matter of time before it finds one.
July 17th, 2008 at 8:58 am
I still say half off. I guess I’m way too bearish.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:06 am
#61,
Why? Who cares about my prediction?
July 17th, 2008 at 9:10 am
BC Bob (32), actually I think you have it wrong:
2005 - peak
2006 - denial (”there is no bubble”)
2007 - anger (”how dare you say prices can fall an inflation-adjusted 30%, you housing terrorist, you”)
2008 - bargaining (”ok, prices may fall a little bit, eventually the writedowns will end”)
2009 - depression (several bank failures later)
2010 - acceptance (”wow, prices do fall, people were so stupid to pay that price in 2006 because everyone knew a housing bubble was imminent”)
July 17th, 2008 at 9:17 am
darn, i’ll be working in the ny office tomorrow too. but i just booked my train back to philly for 5pm. sheeeet!
July 17th, 2008 at 9:18 am
[67],
I’ll buy that.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:20 am
I won’t even say I will attempt to go the GTG in NYC - I was going to the last one that just minutes from me, but alas when I finally could break away from my family obligations it was over. It was an impromptu start of about 5pm but husband not home from work yet, oldest son ( my sometimes babysitter) at work, dinner to be made,since it was at Shannon Rose I almost ran out saying I needed something from Target.
Oh well, someday.
KL
July 17th, 2008 at 9:21 am
71 KL
We missed you at the last one.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:24 am
The median price, the level at which half the homes in a market sell for more and half sell for less, changed because fewer high-end houses traded hands, Saatchi said. That doesn’t mean values are necessarily falling, she said.
Funny how you never hear them saying the opposite while median home prices are rising.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:26 am
sorry if this is a repost..
Here are the companies which have been placed on the SEC’s no-short list..
* BNP Paribas Securities Corp
* Bank of America Corp
* Barclays PLC
* Citigroup Inc
* Credit Suisse Group
* Daiwa Securities Group Inc
* Deutsche Bank Group AG
* Allianz SE
* Goldman Sachs Group Inc
* Royal Bank ADS
* HSBC Holdings Plc ADS
* JPMorgan Chase & Co
* Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc
* Merrill Lynch & Co Inc
* Mizuho Financial Group Inc
* Morgan Stanley
* UBS AG
* Freddie Mac
* Fannie Mae
WTF is Goldman doing on that list???
July 17th, 2008 at 9:32 am
Those are the 19 primary broker dealers authorized by the fed
July 17th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Bond of day for Chi Fin people
PORT AUTH N Y & N J ONE HUNDRED TWENTY 05.12500% 01/15/2036 SECOND SER SER. 2001
Basic Analytics
Price (Ask) 98.476
Yield to Worst (Ask) 5.230%
Yield to Maturity 5.230069%
July 17th, 2008 at 9:37 am
Housing: Barron’s Calls a Bottom
July 17th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Oh yeah, let the Barron’s bashing begin.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:42 am
Cancel your f’n plans, I don’t want to hear excuses.
NICE! dont F with grim!
July 17th, 2008 at 9:43 am
2 grim
“Most of the editorial cuts will come from the WSJ’s office in South Brunswick, New Jersey”
That’s a typo. They clearly meant the New Brunswick that’s in Canada. Or perhaps Brunswick, Maine.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:45 am
10 COnfused
perhaps “Bernanke’s Blunder”. While greenspan set the stage our friend Bergabe has not taken any serious steps to stop it.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:47 am
6 grim
“Boy, I remember the days when saying home prices would fall 30% would be enough to raise a torch-wielding mob.”
Whatever. Price drops of 30% are mere “stagnation” if they take place over 6 years at -5% per year (as measured by whichever price measurement survey is the most convenient at the time). And in local areas such as Hoboken, Weehawken and parts of Jersey City, prices will be just fine.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:47 am
# 4 “We need a name for it. The Great Depression is already taken.”
Inasmuch as we seem to have reared a geneation, or more, of folks who seem to think they should be able to have everything and anything they want, at any time, and regardless of cost or their income, and they feel robbed if they do not get it NOW! I suggest:
Ingrate Depression
In the alternative:
The: Doh! What were we thinking? Of course bidding up housing prices to 10X annual income, and taking on massive amounts of debt far in excess of prudent relationship to income or net worth depression.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:47 am
8 bairen
“Has there ever been a 2 year long recession that was “mild”?”
It’s a new paradigm.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:49 am
“J.P. Morgan posted a 53% fall in net income as the firm recorded $1.1 billion in mortgage-related markdowns. ”
That CAN’T be true!! bi (and S&P) said there would be no more writedowns!!!
July 17th, 2008 at 9:50 am
NNJ Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. However, most reasonable people after all that has happened would remain skeptical that we have actually reached a bottom at this point,.
I have over the last few weeks challenged your contention that prices in NJ will not go down, or only very little, with facts, and reasonable dissent based on those facts.
In most cases you did not reply.
My belief remains that you are either a realtor, or a recent homebuyer.
You whole arguement has been again that prices in NJ will not go down or go down very little, because you say so.
Once again I would ask you to provide facts,and rational and reasonable arguements as to why you hold that belief.
While you are at it, please provide an explanation as to what fundamentals drove house prices in North Jersey to 7 or 8 times median income, when the historic average has been 2.5 to 3 times income.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:50 am
15 Tom
“I’m not too fond of comments like that in the press. The problem isn’t that housing prices are falling it’s that they rose so high.”
Yep. The MSM still don’t get it. Current reporting is still rife with that crap, and it really frosts my a$$.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:54 am
3b, the reason I don’t reply to you is baseless comments by you that somehow I am a realtor or recent homebuyer. Don’t make conclusions when you don’t have any decent basis.
Go read the article by Barron’s and dispute those facts. btw, Barron’s did call a Oil Price peak a few back back.
You do know that Case of Case-Shiller called a housing bottom as well.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:56 am
“Oh yeah, let the Barron’s bashing begin.”
NNJ,
Not Ableson. By the way, Liang quoted the NAR many times in that article. Comforting?
Is this the best you have?
http://www.cjr.org/the_audit/barrons_housing_story.php?page=all
July 17th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Housing is the next bubble, get in now or resign to live the rest of your life in the back of your Honda.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Victorian (73):
You are looking at the too big to fail list. Communism is alive and well in the USA for those companies. WaMu and Wachovia - You are on your own!! Kiss them goodbye…
July 17th, 2008 at 9:58 am
SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — Japan’s private-sector financial institutions held slightly more than 10 trillion yen ($95 billion) in debt securities issued by U.S. mortgage lenders such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as of the end of the fiscal year in March, according to a published report.
You would think that they learned they lesson considering that they’re dealing with this for the past 18 yrs.
I guess they’re not as smart as we think they are.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Please Lord,
Just one more bubble.
I promise not to piss it away this time.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:58 am
# 30 “When Obama gets elected he will fix everything ”
Oh, yea; our agent of change. He will change everything: every dollar you earn will be changed into a quarter.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:59 am
17 grim
This:
“Second-quarter sales volume dropped 29 percent and the median price fell 11 percent to $735,000 from a year earlier in the resort communities on the East End of New York’s Long Island, Suffolk Research Service Inc. said in a report today.
Transactions are dropping as financial firms have cut more than 93,000 jobs and taken more than $416 billion in mortgage- related losses and writedowns. The retreat in global stock markets, waning consumer confidence and the deepening housing recession are also keeping prospective buyers at bay”
Reminds me of this:
“pretorius Says:
March 6th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
3b,
Let’s face it, Wall Street layoffs have been mild in light of the size of the financial crisis.
Remember the doom and gloom you predicted back in September?
“The old ‘October surprise’ is still the way the street does it.” - 3b, September 2007.
“I’m hearing 10-20% layoffs. Bear, as we know it, will not be the same. It’s either massive restructuring, 30-50% layoffs” - 3b, September 2007.
When I look at the jobs report each month, the only places that are negative are Orange County and Detroit.
The worst case scenario for New York area jobs simply hasn’t played out.”
Of course, to be fair, if pretorius were here he’d say those 93,000 job cuts were not all from Wall Street itself, and East Hampton is a long way from Manhattan.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:00 am
“WTF is Goldman doing on that list???”
Didn’t you get the memo? They are the unelected rulers of our country.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:02 am
#67
the 2006 denial is spot on.
I had friends flat out get insulted after they bought in 2006 when i mentioned that the bubble had burst. I got the “i don’t believe there is a bubble” and “location, location, location”.
I wanted to shake them until the stupid fell out.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:03 am
I think I’m going to open a store selling pitchforks, torches, tar, and feathers.
I believe that will be the next bubble.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:03 am
J.P. Morgan Chase, the nation’s third largest bank by assets, said Thursday second-quarter net income fell 53% as the credit crisis continued to bite, driving markdowns on mortgage positions and leveraged loans higher, and as the company took more than $500 million in costs for its Bear Stearns acquisition.
Ok so profit is down 53% and cost went up but the expectations are soo low that they beat the street.
Pardon me but if my rental profit are down 53% I wouldn’t be too excited and thrilled.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:03 am
31 BC
“Kind of like an overloaded septic tank. You can only fill it with X amount of —-.”
Are we talking about the GSEs again?
July 17th, 2008 at 10:04 am
re: #73 Victorian
The SEC is preventing the Hedge Funds from stealing from the impending slaughter, since those banks all need lots of time to unwind losses slowly, for example Lehman is in full deleverage mode they are down from 31% to 24% leverage.
The more the SEC and Govn’t can do the slow the unwinding the longer the banks have to fix their balance sheets.
As far as the rest of us? We are all meat popsicles.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:04 am
100 Don’t forget pikes.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:05 am
You are looking at the too big to fail list. Communism is alive and well in the USA for those companies. WaMu and Wachovia - You are on your own!! Kiss them goodbye…
Amen brother. Once this short lived rally fades(by next week) short them too death.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:07 am
43 chifi
I missed that post by skeptic somehow. Thanks for repeating - was a good read.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:13 am
You are looking at the too big to fail list. Communism is alive and well in the USA for those companies. WaMu and Wachovia - You are on your own!! Kiss them goodbye…
Amen brother. Once this short lived rally fades(by next week) short them too death.
_______________________________________________
The Fed and the SEC are friggin stupid. They just told you who they are throwing to the wolves and who gets the hammer and sickle bailout. There is going to be a precipitous drop in the market in the next month or so. All this just to give a bunch of stupid ass bankers a chance to make a buck!
July 17th, 2008 at 10:17 am
62 NNJ
Thanks for the months-stale news.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:19 am
69 Frank
“Who cares about my prediction?”
OK - you got me. I’m stumped.
Who?
July 17th, 2008 at 10:20 am
#90 NNJ: I made the so called baseless comment, based on a remark that you made, which I admit I do not remember word for word,but it was a classic realtor comment something to the effect I believe that because of proximity to NYC, prices would not go down in NJ.
Again that is a classic realtor comment, or a comment from a recent homebuyer who was told that by a realtor. If that is not the case, than I apologize.
As far as Case Shiller, he may be right regarding Cal. AZ, Fla housing markets.
In relation to this area I believe he is wrong,and that the correction is not complete yet. The recently ended Spring selling season in North Jersey would tend to support my view.
Finally I would like to point out that prior to making that comment, (realtor/recent homebuyer) I had challenged you on several occasions to provide a reasonable rational dissent as to why prices in NJ would not go down,
Than as now you remain silent.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Note: Philly Fed includes portions of central/southern NJ.
From Marketwatch:
Manufacturing falls in Philly region for 8th month
Manufacturing in the Philadelphia region weakened for the eighth straight month in July, the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia said Thursday. The Philly Fed index rose to negative 16.3 from negative 17.1 in June. Readings below zero indicate most firms in the survey said business was worse in July. Economists expected the index to improve slightly to negative 16. Three-fourths of companies reported paying higher prices for inputs, while a third said they were able to raise their own prices.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:22 am
70 Herring
”wow, prices do fall, people were so stupid to pay that price in 2006 because everyone knew a housing bubble was imminent”
This is known as the Joe Klein Stance (also known as the Joke Line Stance and not to be confused with the Larry Craig “Wide Stance”): This week he says that whatever happened last week was what he predicted the previous week.
Just don’t go back and actually read his old columns.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:23 am
71 Secondary
“but i just booked my train back to philly for 5pm. sheeeet!”
(1) you can’t postpone?
(2) the proper spelling is “sheee-it!”
July 17th, 2008 at 10:26 am
Watching the Dow this week, and especially this morning, makes me envision traders watching the Titanic.
Hits berg: White Star share price goes down 20 points
Starts taking on water: down 20 points
Analyst predicts it may sink: drops 40 points
Although she is listing and bow is starting to go beneath the water, the ship has not slid under the waves as quickly as initially thought: White Star share price goes up 100 points
Bow fills with water forcing screws up out of water, bridge slides to water level. Analysts observe how shiny the props are, and the quality of the band: Price goes up 30 points.
Observers note she appears unstable and may sink. Price drops 20 points
Other observers note that the White Star Line is too important to trans-Atlantic shipping to fail and the Titanic is the most important product, which only recently received AAA ratings. Price surges 50 points.
ship pitches to 45 degrees, bridge slips under water and analysts note there may not be enough lifeboats for all passengers. Price drops 20 points.
Other analysts observe that that the ones who are denied lifeboat space are either low income, who are of no consequence to the economy (or as a NJ official notes a “drain” on the economy) or they are wealthy and insured, and their deaths will bring an infusion of cash from insurance settlements and the re-marrying wives will help form even wealthier unions thus improving the strength of the economy, and producing jobs for waiters etc. at weddings, and subsequent parties. Grave diggers are also expecting a windfall. Price increases 20 points and the wider market goes up 10% in anticipation of more good news from White Star.
As the ship slides into the water, analysts bid up ship builders and White Star increases another 20 points based on the publicity it has received. Said one analyst, “White Star’s name is on everyone’s lips. When people think trans-Atlantic travel, White Star is the name they will think of.” With White Star’s announcement that it plans even more unsinkable ships, and news that “not everyone died” White Star’s shares surge ahead in after-hours trading.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:30 am
even dead cats bounce :) Amen, brother, All Hype.
grim, we [lamentingly, regrettably and miserably] can’t make the gtg. Maybe next time. see email.
Herring, I love it.
sl
July 17th, 2008 at 10:30 am
AH [106],
I would love to see a 5-10% rally.
Every other rally has failed, lower highs, lower lows. The cheerleaders called a bottom on April 18th, when the Dow rallied 224 point, ditto on June 5th, after a 216 point rally. Hey, I guess the bottom is in again? If they ever traded it like they forecast it, they would be busted.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:31 am
@112
i’m trying to book a dog walker so i can stay in nyc a little longer. good to know sheeee-it won’t go to mod.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:34 am
got to love this one!!
July 17 (Bloomberg) — Pakistan investors stormed out of the Karachi Stock Exchange, smashed windows and cursed regulators after the benchmark index fell for a 15th day, the worst losing streak in at least 18 years.
“I have lost my life savings in the last 15 days and no one in the government or regulators came to help us,” said Imran Inayat, 45, a protester and a former banker who retired early and said he lost 300,000 rupees ($4,175) on the market.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a111C0hsxBic&refer=home
July 17th, 2008 at 10:38 am
# 118 ““I have lost my life savings in the last 15 days and no one in the government or regulators came to help us,” ”
See. THAT is the reason billionaires everywhere prefer the NYSE. In times of trouble, they can count on Uncle Sam to come and bail them out and protect their capital investment.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:39 am
OK - I’ll start.
80 NNJ
“Oh yeah, let the Barron’s bashing begin.”
OK, I’ll start.
That article is so mind-numbingly stupid that it made me tired.
Here are some choice quotes:
“Chip Case is … among those who think home prices may be nearing a bottom” [sounds definitive "may be" "nearing" - known as the BOLD STANCE]
“Case acknowledges history might not repeat, as the U.S. could be on the cusp of a painful recession.” [oh.]
“Still other numbers suggest prices are close to bottoming. The S&P/Case-Shiller Index for April, released just last month, showed the biggest year-over-year price decline yet, of 15.3%. ” [that sounds ominous]
“Buried in the numbers, however, and widely ignored in the media, was the news that home prices actually rose, albeit slightly, between March and April, in eight of the 20 markets covered by the index” [gee - why was it widely ignored by the media? Maybe because MOM numbers don't account for seasonality and are worthless in determining where the market is heading? This sentence is profoundly, breath-takingly stupid.]
“Other than Larry Kudlow of CNBC, none of the journalists who interviewed me after the latest release seemed at all interested in any of the positive developments,” says David Blitzer, chairman of the S&P Index Committee. “They seemed focused on the bad year-over-year number.” [Oh. My. God. So the only person who agrees with the premise of the article is Larry Kudlow??]
“Help for the housing market also may be on the way in the form of proposed congressional legislation that would allow the recasting of some $300 billion in troubled subprime mortgages through the Federal Housing Administration. The bill, which some have derided as a bailout, would demand sacrifices by both lenders and borrowers, and could help to ease conditions in the subprime market.
Of greater importance, a government takeover of loss-ridden Fannie and Freddie — the subject of widespread speculation late last week — would ease concerns about the continued availability of credit in the housing market. Fannie and Freddie, which buy mortgages from banks and repackage them into mortgage-backed securities, are the biggest source of financing for the U.S. mortgage market.” [Ah - so we're at the bottom because you can trust the United States government to fix the problem. I'm so relieved...]
“Home prices often take five to 10 years to recover fully from severe declines such as this. But at least the available data suggest the scary dive in home prices soon will be over.” [THAT'S THE CONCLUSION!!! So all that hot air concluded that we are only two years into a downturn that is likely to last between another 3 and 8 years, but we should take heart because the declines in home values will be less rapid going forward]
NNJ, I can’t decide whose the bigger fool - the author of that article or the guy who link to it here. Every time you open your mouth, some idiot speaks.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:41 am
See. THAT is the reason billionaires everywhere prefer the NYSE. In times of trouble, they can count on Uncle Sam to come and bail them out and protect their capital investment.
It’s beacuase of that the NYSE as a leader are numbered.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:41 am
In 2006 I priced an Audi A6 (U.S. specs, in dollars for export) here in euroland. Price was $46k. Same car in the dealer showroom went for $70k. Today, that car goes for over $100k, twice what it seels for in the U.S. 19% VAT is responsible for some of the difference but I can’t help thinking the dollar is in serious trouble. I expect when I return to NJ the only things we’ll be able to buy with our deflated currency are products made in the U.S. manufactured by U.S. workers with deflated wages.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:41 am
#21 BC Bob,
I predicted 30% off from the peak. I think I was wrong. See the house in VA. The price came down from $ $466,000(9/24/07) to $189,900(today 7/17/08). About 60% off!!
http://www.ziprealty.com/buy_a_home/logged_in/search/home_detail.jsp?property_type=SFR&source=MRIS&cKey=rsd2k2r6&listing_num=FX6525596&mls=MLS_BALTIMORE
July 17th, 2008 at 10:42 am
85 shore
“Doh! What were we thinking? Of course bidding up housing prices to 10X annual income, and taking on massive amounts of debt far in excess of prudent relationship to income or net worth depression.”
That comes after folks can no longer afford to drink Duff Beer all day at Itchy and Scratchy Land.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:42 am
88 3B
“My belief remains that you are either a realtor, or a recent homebuyer.”
Likely both.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:45 am
90 NNJ
“3b, the reason I don’t reply to you is baseless comments by you that somehow I am a realtor or recent homebuyer. Don’t make conclusions when you don’t have any decent basis.”
That is what is known in politics as a “non-denial denial”.
Try saying this: “I am neither a realtor nor a recent homebuyer.”
Can you?
July 17th, 2008 at 10:45 am
#103 Shore Guy Says:
July 17th, 2008 at 10:04 am
“100 Don’t forget pikes.”
Pikes probably require skilled labor and would cut into my margins. How about rails instead?
July 17th, 2008 at 10:47 am
# 124 The “THrough The Looking Glass” aspect of current policy and the workings of the Market, leaves a prudent person feeling like a chump sometimes.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:47 am
93 All Hype
“Communism is alive and well in the USA”
Hey - we have the gulag aspect of it and the spying-on-your-neighbors aspect of it, so why not add the economic aspect of it.
Is it true that we suggested that Iraq take our constitution, given that we’re no longer using it?
July 17th, 2008 at 10:49 am
njpatient, your stupidity is mind-numbing.
It seems like OFHEO, NAR, Case-Shiller, Zillow, GSMLS, Barron’s are all wrong or manipulated with the data they publish. The only numbers that matter are ones here. Sure way to stay poor.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:50 am
njpatient Says:
July 17th, 2008 at 10:39 am
OK - I’ll start.
80 NNJ
“Oh yeah, let the Barron’s bashing begin.”
njp/bost/nnj/grim/albani etc.:
I sent this e-mail…YESTERDAY…in response to one of my LARGEST clients stuffing this article in my face. SO I STUCK MY NECK OUT WITH MY WALLET, not just spit out a disposable diatribe on a blog….
_____________________________________________
From: Jordan Celkupa
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 1:50 PM
Subject: Barron’s Article
I disagree with it. It seems like a shallow and flimsy discussion. I think we are moving a leg down into a recession, and further credit issues. Honestly, the article discusses why some of the commonly held arguments may be wrong, but it really falls flat as to providing grounds that would catalyze a stabilization.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:53 am
130, now that’s more like it.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:54 am
patient [119],
That article can be ripped to shreads. Unfortunately, I did not have the patience[no pun], nor the time to get into it. I don’t know why the dolt, NNJ, did not include Ableson’s setiment reagarding the same market.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:55 am
113 shore
you forgot one point:
The Federal Gov’t announces that it will raise the Titanic from the bottom no matter the cost to the taxpayers.
[Thank goodness they wouldn't be that stupid, right?]
July 17th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Brokers don’t know nothing. I have a smith barney account I rarely use I get a call out of the blue from the broker regarding a Wamu bond I owe that expires 8/25/08 telling me that SB issued a sell recommendation on the bond. I was like first of all the bond matures in a month and second where were you a year ago. Plus that was Tuesday of this week right before the biggest day in financials ever. Guy told me they were told to call clients as they deem it speculative risk as of Monday of last week. Basically they picked the bottom to tell people to sell. If you did the opposite of what SB told you, you could retire rich. Then he said he was also calling the GM/Ford people advising them to sell. WHAT - the bonds are 50 cents on a dollar, bottom line anyone who bought at 100 cents on a dollar is better off risking getting 30 cents on a dollar in bankruptcy as they still got a chance to get 100 cents on a dollar at maturity and a few interest payments. Where was SB in June when those bonds were trading at 85 cents on a dollar. Bottom line they get paid to guess.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:56 am
Chi [130],
Love it.
JB,
Can we post that article [Barron's] as the main topic tomorrow, forget about the weekend discussion. If not, then Monday. Let’s debate that article.
July 17th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Actually, they are raising it from the bottom, searching for DNA in order to clone the victims while they rebuild a replica of the boat so that in 20 years when the cloans are completely grown up the titantic can finish its voyage and deliver its passengers unharmed.
njpatient Says:
July 17th, 2008 at 10:55 am
113 shore
you forgot one point:
The Federal Gov’t announces that it will raise the Titanic from the bottom no matter the cost to the taxpayers.
[Thank goodness they wouldn't be that stupid, right?]
July 17th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Grim - Re: GTG - Stu’s in Vegas. Is that an acceptable excuse? I’ve asked him to win enough money out there to buy a beach house for summer GTG’s. At the rate the economy’s going, he may not need to win all that much!
July 17th, 2008 at 10:58 am
JJ: I have active leads for people bagging SB, Wachovia, and ML for being useless in the face of all this mess and further, stuffing their pockets with AR munis….
July 17th, 2008 at 10:59 am
127 Shore
“The “THrough The Looking Glass” aspect of current policy and the workings of the Market, leaves a prudent person feeling like a chump sometimes.”
Yes, and it’ll probably stay that way until our Dear Leader figures out why a raven is like a writing desk.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:00 am
126 bairen
may i suggest a mace then, does not require much skill and they are easy to produce.
http://www.swordsandarmor.com/mall/mace-spiked-club.htm
July 17th, 2008 at 11:01 am
#17
“Last year’s $2 million house is still this year’s $2 million house,” Saatchi said. “The difference is this year nobody bought it.”
so… how do you know it’s worth $2 million?
July 17th, 2008 at 11:02 am
NNJ 131
“130, now that’s more like it.”
He disagreed with you, dummy.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:04 am
129 NNJ
“It seems like OFHEO, NAR, Case-Shiller, Zillow, GSMLS, Barron’s are all wrong or manipulated with the data they publish.”
No - the data from OFHEO, Case-Schiller, GSMLS and even NAR continue to indicate accelerating damage to RE, so I don’t know what it is that you believe you’re referring to.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:04 am
#124 njpatient: Agreed.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:06 am
njpatient, name calling is childish, grow up.
I know he disagreed with me, he has the balls to put his reputation on the line.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:06 am
#129 NNJ: Sure way to stay poor.
More realtor speak?
July 17th, 2008 at 11:06 am
144 3B
Think we’ll get an answer to my question at 125?
I think it’s a done deal.
Both.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:07 am
njpatient,
“Is it true that we suggested that Iraq take our constitution, given that we’re no longer using it?”
When you storm into a place with a bunch of soldiers I think it may be considered more than a suggestion. :)
July 17th, 2008 at 11:07 am
“I know he disagreed with me, he has the balls to put his reputation on the line.”
He’s self-employed.
Have you put your reputation on the line?
July 17th, 2008 at 11:07 am
FYI….please recall the June 2, 2008 cover story of Barron’s…published when the prevailing stock price was $17.10. A recent low below $9 was reached 48 hours ago, although a dramatic run has brought it back to $12.
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB121218756175534083.html?mod=9_0031_b_this_weeks_magazine_main
July 17th, 2008 at 11:08 am
#131 NNJ: now that’s more like it.
And yet you relied on someone else to come up with it.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:08 am
146 3B
“More realtor speak?”
Good point - I missed that.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:10 am
Yes Barrons was wrong on GM, seems to be right on Oil. And anyones guess on how right they are on Real Estate.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:11 am
3b & njpatient, you guys are idiots.
I don’t know why any realtor would like prices to stay high, they should care about volume and not price.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:11 am
#145 NNJ: I know he disagreed with me, he has the balls to put his reputation on the line.
As opposed to yourself.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:11 am
#153 NNJ
1 for 3 would make them an All star hitter in baseball.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:12 am
NNJ: I appreciate that comment. So we are zealots here, but we are not nuts…..
July 17th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Isn’t Barrons now owned by Rupert Murdoch, along with the WSJ? You need look no further as to why editorial standards may have been lowered and reporting quality compromised.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:13 am
#154 NNJ: Name calling? In my disagreements with you, I have never resorted to name calling
July 17th, 2008 at 11:14 am
159, 3b, sorry I think it was BC Bob.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:16 am
NNJ i missed it, what is barrons stance on oil?
July 17th, 2008 at 11:17 am
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aSGUyHu0Si64&refer=home
Wall Trade Center in the new Michigan of Auto industry!
July 17th, 2008 at 11:17 am
#76
“Here are the companies which have been placed on the SEC’s no-short list..”
What a list of posers. HH does not need government backup. I take my (rare)losses and move on.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:17 am
NNJ at 129
“njpatient, your stupidity is mind-numbing. ”
NNJ at 145
“njpatient, name calling is childish, grow up.”
NNJ at 154
“3b & njpatient, you guys are idiots.”
July 17th, 2008 at 11:18 am
156 bairen
“1 for 3 would make them an All star hitter in baseball.”
Yes. Except they’re wrong about oil, too, so 0 for 3.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:19 am
http://online.barrons.com/public/article/SB121400286913193263.html?mod=9_0001_b_this_weeks_magazine_home_top&page=sp
July 17th, 2008 at 11:20 am
161 kettle
Here’s Barrons’ stance on oil
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB121400286913193263.html
July 17th, 2008 at 11:23 am
and in keeping with their RE article, here’s the full hedging from Barrons:
“In the next decade, oil indeed may hit $200 a barrel. But prices could fall to $100 a barrel by the end of this year if Saudi Arabia makes good on its pledge to increase production; global demand eases; the Federal Reserve begins lifting short-term interest rates; the dollar rallies, and investors stop pouring money into the oil market. ”
So there are a full 5 “ifs” (count ‘em) needed to accomplish their preduction, each less likely than the last.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:23 am
3B - you notice still no response to 127?
July 17th, 2008 at 11:25 am
“And anyones guess on how right they are on Real Estate.”
NNJ,
I’ll go out on a limb. Abelson,[Barron's], is correct, Liang is wrong. My reputation is now on the line.
Liang’s position seemed like a regurgitation of Yun’s garbage. I’ll be happy to debate point by point.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:32 am
#85 devils advocate: who is to say that median income multiple is the right way to value a house? What about a multiple of average income? Or median upper class (ie for the most part, those who buy homes) income? Median ignores the case of the “rich getting richer,” which there has been some evidence of lately.
For example, say five people lived in NJ and their incomes were this in 1999: 20 20 50 89 100. The median is 50. If the average house is $300, this is 6x median income. The average is 55.8, so houses are 5.4x average income.
Now fast forward to 2006 and their incomes are as follows: 18 22 59 110 120, and the average home is $400.
The median income is still 50. Homes are now 8x median income (2x more) but the average is 65.8 so they are 6.1x average income, an increase of just .7x.
Granted i know nothing about the relationship of average vs. median income as a multiple of housing prices over time, but there is no rule that says house prices should be a certain multiple or anything. They are determined by the market and not all buyers and sellers use the same “rules of thumb.”
July 17th, 2008 at 11:33 am
I find it interesting the recent spate of seemingly overly optimistic Barron’s articles may have something to do with Rupert Murdock’s recent takeover of all the Dow Jone’s pubs?
July 17th, 2008 at 11:33 am
No need to aruge the same points again:
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2008/07/barrons-cover-g.html
July 17th, 2008 at 11:35 am
#129 NNJ
“It seems like OFHEO, NAR, Case-Shiller, Zillow, GSMLS, Barron’s are all wrong or manipulated with the data they publish. The only numbers that matter are ones here. ”
You do have a point here. Only the NAR have released a correction based on Grims numbers. The others should start falling into line soon.
Will be sorry to miss the GTG, the new tax deduction is keeing m up at night.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:36 am
From Dealbreaker:
Raid On Wachovia!
Posted by Bess Levin, Jul 17, 2008, 11:20am
Ten state securities regulators just showed up at Wachovia’s St. Louis headquarters, reportedly seeking documents on auction rate securities sales and marketing practices. Today’s “on-site investigation” follows over seventy formal complaints and Wachovia’s failure to comply with requests for information.
http://dealbreaker.com/2008/07/raid_on_wachovia.php
July 17th, 2008 at 11:38 am
No mortgage workouts???
http://www.puredoxyk.com/index.php/2008/07/16/black-monday-2008-foreclosure-apocalypse/
Could it be true?
July 17th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Does Bi work for Barrons????
July 17th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Hey NNJ
Re the guy who wrote the oil article?
He’s the same guy who wrote this completely brilliant piece about a dozen stocks that could rebound this year.
You should see the names on that list!
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB119949673330669207.html
July 17th, 2008 at 11:42 am
174 PGC
har!
July 17th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Trouble with median income is that at best 60 - 70% of people really have financials to afford a house. Historically, pre easy money only people above a certain income level with steady legal income could buy a house. So the median income that the census includes mcdonalds and car wash workers etc.
If you use median income to guage home affordability only the top 70% should count as the bottom 30% should be renting.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Hope you don’t follow Shiller:
(published April 1, 2002, maybe it was a joke)
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2002/04/01/320622/index.htm
Certain regional markets may already be in trouble. According to data from Case Weiss Shiller, home prices in San Francisco have been dropping precipitously. In the first quarter of 2001 the average price of a single-family home there rose 4%, but by the end of the year had fallen 7%. “We’re seeing a bubble bursting right now in San Francisco,” says Robert Shiller, an economics professor at Yale University and partner at Case Weiss Shiller. “We’ve never seen such a sharp drop, and we’re expecting it to fall even more.” Shiller, who warned of a stock market bubble in the late 1990s and coined the phrase “irrational exuberance,” believes there’s the risk of a housing bubble in other major cities. At the top of his watch list are Portland, Ore., Seattle, Denver, and New York.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:45 am
176 sapiens
“Could it be true?”
I have no idea, but given that the US federal gov’t gives every indication of intervening in the contractual relationship between banks and homeowners, perhaps going REO doesn’t look like such a bad option to the banks anymore.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:46 am
NNJ
More old news?
July 17th, 2008 at 11:46 am
Patient that is quite a list :))
July 17th, 2008 at 11:49 am
#178 njp
Do you think that writer is bi?
7 of his 12 picks are done over 30%
July 17th, 2008 at 11:50 am
#62
“The surge in low- and mid-range sales has been sufficient to push average peak-to-trough prices down by 24.6%, despite the index’s valuation-weighting.”
so this Barron’s argument is that overall declines are misleading w/r/t to high end properties because a higher percentage of sales are now happening at the low end. I would actually come to the opposite conclusion. Higher priced homes are not selling in large part because of the lack of availability of jumbo mortgages and the recent requirement to document income. The fact that there are apparently so few higher end sales causes me to question the reliability of price discovery happening there. It seems reasonable to believe that the market clearing price is actually much lower than the prices as reported
July 17th, 2008 at 11:50 am
#184 freudian slip. done = down
July 17th, 2008 at 11:50 am
NJP -(181)
God help us, there will be blood on the streets.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:51 am
Tom :171
Be careful trying to apply median income to home prices. With such a wide range of incomes in NJ, you can’t put everybody into the same cubbyhole.
At the low end of the income scale, those folks can’t buy a median home. They should look at fixer-upper bungalows (if they’re handy) or strictly rentals (if they don’t know a screwdriver from a hammer).
The government can’t mandate that everybody gets a Center Hall Colonial located in a good school district.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:53 am
#62
“According to the latest report from the National Association of Realtors, sales of single-family homes, condominiums, town houses and co-ops edged up 2% in May from April’s levels. That might not sound like much of a jump, but May marks only the second month in the past 10 to have seen an increase.”
seasonality?
July 17th, 2008 at 11:54 am
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a111C0hsxBic&refer=home
good thing grasso didn’t work here
July 17th, 2008 at 11:56 am
sapes,
Where have you been, digging?
July 17th, 2008 at 11:57 am
188 Fiddy
The government can’t mandate that everybody gets a Center Hall Colonial located in a good school district.
But the can sure as heck try, comrade!
July 17th, 2008 at 11:57 am
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/fsb/0807/gallery.recession_concessions.fsb/index.html
free drink special for people with foreclosure notices.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:58 am
171: Tom (not me I’m not replying to myself :) )
The median price to income ratios are pretty good indicators. If you take a microscope to one particular area and only look at a handful of sales it might be meaningless.
Have a look at the chart toward the bottom of this page that shows historical median house price to income ratios broken down by income level. It may answer some of the questions you had in your post.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:58 am
chicagofinance, being zealot is not bad, cherry-picking data to reiterate pre-determined conclusions is dangerous.
July 17th, 2008 at 11:59 am
#169 NJpatient: Are you surprised??
July 17th, 2008 at 11:59 am
12 to 15 percent is a significant decrease in home prices. Let’s hope that it doesn’t turn out as bad as predicted.
July 17th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
“cherry-picking data to reiterate pre-determined conclusions is dangerous.”
And how about falsifying data?
I guess you’d have to be a real nar to do that.
July 17th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
171: Tom
One more… this is a chart that shows the median and average house price to median incomes for bergen county. I cound’t find data for the average incomes.
July 17th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Gubmint Mandates….in an election year, the promises are flying hot & heavy.
Median Incomes….again, I caution. The incomes in Tom’s example are all over the map. The median is still $50K. But at the low end, you’re not on the same playing field. No soup for you!
July 17th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
#62
“It is important to remember, as well, that even after a steep drop in the S&P/Case-Shiller Indices, long-term buyers in the top 20 U.S. metro markets have seen their properties appreciate by 70% since 2000. Home prices often take five to 10 years to recover fully from severe declines such as this. But at least the available data suggest the scary dive in home prices soon will be over.”
I guess that is why the builder’s confidence index is at an all time low.
Banks are also obviously very optimistic on housing, which is why they continue to tighter mortgage approvals.
We also have 10.8 months of inventory of homes on the market nationally, not counting all of the REOs and FSBOs. So this is also a good sign.
Finally, 70% return in the last 7 years implies a compound annual rate of return of over 7.5%, which is well over the long term historical return on residential real estate, which is between 3-4%, so clearly this is also a sign that prices are at a bottom.
July 17th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
No F’in Excuses was directed at me, I think.
No Excuses, this is the Recession/Grim Appreciation GTG, NYC Version. I have it INKED in (no f’in pencil for me).
Patient, you in? You can always go back to the office.
July 17th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Ok serious question. I am booking speakers for a conference and a big shot at the CFTC commodities futures trading commission wants me to propose topics for a one hour speech that mainly accounting, complinace, auditor, consultant, type people from BDs, banks, CFMs or big 4 firms will attend.
Any suggestions on topics. Please leave the funnies to a min.
July 17th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
T