Watching the watchers

From the WSJ:

FDIC Faces Mortgage Mess After Running Failed Bank
Subprime Lender Made Problem Loans On Regulators’ Watch
By MARK MAREMONT
July 21, 2008; Page A1

Federal officials heap much of the blame for the subprime mortgage mess on lenders, claiming they recklessly made too many high-cost home loans to borrowers who couldn’t afford them.

It turns out that the U.S. government itself was one of the lenders giving out high-interest, subprime mortgages, some of them predatory, according to government documents filed in federal court.

The unusual situation, which is still bedeviling bank regulators, stems from the 2001 seizure by federal officials of Superior Bank FSB, then a national subprime lender based in Hinsdale, Ill. Rather than immediately shuttering or selling Superior, as it normally does with failed banks, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. continued to run the bank’s subprime-mortgage business for months as it looked for a buyer. With FDIC people supervising day-to-day operations, Superior funded more than 6,700 new subprime loans worth more than $550 million, according to federal mortgage data.

The FDIC then sold a big chunk of the loans to another bank. That loan pool was afflicted by the same problems for which regulators have faulted the industry: lending to unqualified borrowers, inflated appraisals and poor verification of borrowers’ incomes, according to a written report from a government-hired expert. The report said that many of the loans never should have been made in the first place.

At the time the FDIC was running Superior, subprime lending hadn’t yet emerged as the national disaster it since has become. But some lending experts already were faulting industry practices and warning about rising delinquencies. The FDIC’s problems with Superior could fuel criticism that bank regulators were slow to heed warning signs.

In a recent court filing, the FDIC estimated that about 1,500 of the 5,315 loans it sold to Beal either have defaulted or are nonperforming. The FDIC already has bought back another 247 of the mortgages, most of them for violations of federal anti-predatory-lending laws intended to protect borrowers from unreasonably high fees or deceptive practices. Beal Bank has said in court filings that 73 of the repurchased loans were originated while the FDIC was running Superior.

The FDIC says that was a draft report. Last month, the agency filed a final version in court, which estimated that about 19% of the loans sold to Beal contained “material” breaches of the warranties — meaning there were significant problems with close to 1,000 mortgages. This version of the report blames Beal Bank for some of the portfolio’s lost value, saying it serviced the loans in an “inferior” manner.

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397 Responses to Watching the watchers

  1. grim says:

    From Bloomberg:

    Freddie Mac May Slow Mortgage Buys to Prop Up Capital

    Freddie Mac, the second-largest U.S. mortgage-finance company, may cut purchases of home loans from banks and bonds backed by housing debt to shore up its capital amid record delinquencies.

    The government-sponsored company is also considering selling securities and reducing its dividend while it prepares to issue $5.5 billion of stock, McLean, Virginia-based Freddie Mac said in a July 18 filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. JPMorgan Chase & Co. analyst Matthew Jozoff said in a report last week that growth in mortgage holdings of Freddie Mac and the larger Fannie Mae will be “weak.”

    “This just means much less credit availability for mortgage borrowers,” said Paul Colonna, who manages more than $100 billion as chief investment officer for fixed income at GE Asset Management in Stamford, Connecticut. “They were teed up to be saviors of the mortgage crisis, but now they’ve got their own capital issues.”

  2. grim says:

    From the WSJ:

    Businesses Feel Pinch Of Tighter Lending
    Even Blue Chips Face More Onerous Terms; Individuals Next?
    By JUSTIN LAHART
    July 21, 2008; Page A3

    With the credit crunch on Wall Street entering its second year, a widening array of businesses are finding it tough to get credit. And with mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac roiling credit markets, individuals could soon find it harder to get a loan as well.

    Banks also are pulling back on the amount of rainy-day money they have been giving out to corporate clients in the form of loans called revolving-credit facilities. Retailers such as Sears Holdings Corp. and Talbots Inc. have struggled to renew revolving-credit facilities with their bankers in recent months. Other companies, including Wal-Mart Stores Inc., AT&T Inc. and American International Group Inc., have had to agree to tougher terms on such credit.

    Overall, the value of credit held by banks in the second quarter shrank 1.5% from the first quarter, according to Federal Reserve data. That was the largest three-month contraction since 1948.

    These tight credit conditions are particularly worrisome because the Federal Reserve has responded aggressively since the credit crunch emerged last July. The central bank has cut interest rates seven times by a total of 3.25 percentage points.

    Despite those moves, “it’s hard to make the case that financial conditions are especially stimulative right now,” says UBS economist James O’Sullivan.

    Credit-market woes have hammered the housing market and financial companies, but until recently they didn’t appear to be hurting the rest of the economy so much. The latest data suggest that might be changing.

    Credit is the lifeblood of economic activity. If it continues to be hard to get, despite the Fed’s efforts to keep it flowing, that could spell trouble for an economy teetering on the edge of recession.

  3. grim says:

    From Bloomberg:

    U.S. Companies to Raise Prices Amid Soaring Costs, Survey Says

    More companies in the U.S. plan to boost prices and limit hiring as the surge in raw-material costs hurts profits, a private survey found.

    Almost four times as many businesses plan to charge their customers more next quarter than expect to reduce prices, according to the National Association for Business Economics. A net 9 percent of employers said they would increase payrolls over the next six months, the fewest in five years.

    The report reinforces concern that rising expenses will contribute to a further pickup in inflation and a weakening in the labor market. A net 71 percent of firms said costs rose last quarter, up from 65 percent in the previous three months and the most since records began in 1994, the poll showed.

    “The rising costs of materials and other non-labor inputs are a big concern and a big drag on profitability,” Ken Simonson, chief economist for the Associated General Contractors of America in Alexandria, Virginia, and board member of the business group, said in an interview.

  4. BklynHawk says:

    Nom de Plume, et al lawyers (don’t remember if we’ve had any doctors), Latin teachers-

    quis custodiet ipsos
    custodes?

  5. Pat says:

    Who watches the watchmen?

    Where did you see that?

  6. sas says:

    “U.S. Companies to Raise Prices Amid Soaring Costs, Survey Says”

    what? Bloomberg reporters are about 2 years behind the curve with this story. also, “Stealth inflation” has been in full effect for about 3 years now.

    “stealth inflation” is smaller packages, but yet still at the same price.
    sometimes they just reduced a package by an ounce or two, and keep it the same. The idiots public never knows the difference.

    The idiot public is too busy talking about Arod or where the next Hannah Montana concert is so they can pay $100/tkt to take there fat Dorito eating kid to watch.

    SAS

  7. House Hunter says:

    Earnings season seems to be rosy on CNBC, they fail to mention that “profits”, although they have met targets, are so much lower (come cut in half) from last year. When you set the bar so low, everyone looks good

  8. sas says:

    “House prices could fall for two years: Citigroup”
    http://tinyurl.com/698t2k

  9. Cindy says:

    “Rather than immediately shuttering or selling Superior, as it normally does with failed banks, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. continued to run the bank’s subprime-mortgage business for months as it looked for a buyer.”

    What is so disappointing to me is that they evidently had no idea how bad it was and how many more banks would be in trouble.

    The banks held onto properties way too long too as the prices continued to drop – now
    they have to write-down more than they needed too – they should have put more energy into renegotiating some of these loans way back when and the FDIC should have done its job with Superior.

  10. sas says:

    Someone needs to take this bloke to task!

    “Freddie CEO gets a bundle in 2007
    ’08 could bring $20 million”
    http://tinyurl.com/62j79v

  11. Clotpoll says:

    sas (6)-

    Maybe the fat kid who stuffs his face with ranch Doritos may lose a pound or two, as his bag of crap continually gets smaller and smaller.

    Of course, if he’s a smart junkie, he’ll just switch over to the ne plus ultra of junk food: pork rinds.

  12. sas says:

    How Far will Housing Prices Fall?
    http://tinyurl.com/5gv6jt
    SAS

  13. Clotpoll says:

    Hey! I think I want to short some financials.

    All disclaimers.

  14. sas says:

    “Maybe the fat kid who stuffs his face with ranch Doritos may lose a pound or two, as his bag of crap continually gets smaller and smaller”

    hey, thats a good point!
    maybe higher food prices aren’t such a bad thing afterall. Maybe people won’t totally gut themselves full at each meal.

    ;)
    SAS

  15. thatBIGwindow says:

    Just curious what you all think

    How many 25 – 30 year olds living in NJ at this very moment in time:

    -Do not have CC debt
    -Do not have student loan debt
    -Own their own house (that they can afford)
    -Donate time and money to charities/non profit orgs/their communities
    -Go to church

  16. sas says:

    speaking of stocks…

    It was interesting to see that Genetech deal. Thats a worthy piece of news. I think anyways…

    SAS

  17. sas says:

    “How many 25 – 30 year olds living in NJ”

    none, they are too busy sucking mom’s breast in order to finance their lifestyle of being a fistpumper.

    you take away the breast, these blokes will fall like a sack of spuds.

    SAS

  18. sas says:

    “student loan debt”

    this isn’t such an evil.

    I think those social feel good clubs called churches can be worse than any student loan.

    ok, I better shut up now ;)

    SAS

  19. Cindy says:

    (6) Had coffee out of my 36oz. can this AM – They did away with the 3lb. coffee can long ago….but it pretty much looks the same..

    How did the team do, Clot?

  20. sas says:

    “BofA 2Q profit shrinks, beats Wall Street”
    http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080721/earns_bank_of_america.html

  21. thatBIGwindow says:

    #18: Yeah, that would be a good idea!

  22. sas says:

    ” Had coffee out of my 36oz. can this AM – They did away with the 3lb. coffee can long ago….but it pretty much looks the same”

    so, if one thing looks the same, then it holds true for everything.

    wow, maybe I should start eating Dorritos, listein to Hannah Montana w/ fat kids, and watch Arod strike out…. I might them know something.

    ha ha.. kidding ;)
    SAS

  23. lostinny says:

    Clot
    You’re not a pork rind fan are you? I never could understand eating that.

  24. All Hype says:

    Gotta love Bank of America. They beat their lowered expectations. This can only be bullish news, time to load up, the bottom is almost in.

    What they failed to say is that their loan losses are increasing and Countrywide earnings were not included. Countrywide lost 2.3 billion for the quarter.

    Must be nice to work for a bank….Do a lousy job and then jawbone about how good you are doing.

  25. lostinny says:

    18 sas
    I have to agree. Not that any debt is a very good thing, but I thought that student loan debt was considered a “better” debt then say, credit cards.

  26. bairen says:

    #15 tbw

    None. Housing became bubbly in 02. Your 25 to 30 year olds were 19-24 back then. Very few would have even thought of buying back then.

    I know very few people of any age who do not have student loans or credit card debt.

    Even fewer donate time and/or money.

    I know some who go to church, but that does not necessarily make them an ethical or moral person.

  27. I don’t think this has been posted yet. From the WSJ; Why no outrage?
    Good article and a great question.

  28. Cindy says:

    (22) sas

    When they started doing that – years ago now -I truly had to compare the 2 pounds 4oz. verus 3 pounds cans. Now everyone does it…

  29. sas says:

    “Why no outrage?”

    see my post 6.

    Idiot public, knows nothing, cares for nothing except pizza, Dorritos, cheap gas, Ann Taylor, and sports.

    You take away any of the above, your left with silly puddy.

    SAS

  30. sas says:

    well, I better get off my can and goto work and give someone hell!!

    should be fun.

    SAS

  31. HEHEHE says:

    All Hype,

    100% agreed. What a bunch of bs. The ‘all clear’ will be the headline on CNBC all day.

  32. thatBIGwindow says:

    “I know some who go to church, but that does not necessarily make them an ethical or moral person”

    Absolutely, but look at most churches, all elderly people. Who will support religion when they die? I think it is nice to have a spiritual side. It is all about balance.

  33. Shore Guy says:

    From last evening:

    “Laughing all the way Says:
    July 20th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
    Shore –

    I asked this a few days ago, but what are your thoughts no a non-Jersey beach place? Perhaps you know of a beach town that may be up-and-coming?”

    This is the million-dollar question. Non-NJ beaches within an easy drive of Bucks really leaves one with NY, DE, and MD. NY is built up and no deals there to speak of. As for Maryland, I hate the MD shore — especially Ocean City, which is a major tacky dump that makes Seaside look like an old-money, button-down, pillar of class.

    As for DE, Rehobeth is nice, but I also do not care much for Bethany. One might find nice sopts in the far south of the MD shore (I do not know the area), but one is getting into a schlep to get there.

    There is a lot to be said for buying acerage on a lake within an hour of home and using it every weekend, then renting a beach house a couple times a year to get one’s beach fix.

  34. SG says:

    Good find SAS.

    # sas Says:

    “House prices could fall for two years: Citigroup”
    http://tinyurl.com/698t2k

  35. John says:

    Even better, exactly why would a 25 year old want to own their own home, go to church or give away part of their incomes to the church? Isn’t 25 to 30 years of age the one period of your life you are done with school, have a good job and yet to be married with kids? It is for most people the best 5 years of their life. Also anyone under the age of 28 who bought a house is most likely regreting it, they streached themselves to the max, drank the koolaid and bought at the peak and will spend their entire 30′s as a slave to the house while their friends are living in nicer homes for a lot less cash.

    thatBIGwindow Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 7:53 am
    Just curious what you all think

    How many 25 – 30 year olds living in NJ at this very moment in time:

    -Do not have CC debt
    -Do not have student loan debt
    -Own their own house (that they can afford)
    -Donate time and money to charities/non profit orgs/their communities
    -Go to church

  36. Clotpoll says:

    Cindy (19)-

    Very well, thanks for asking. Made the semifinal, playing a year up in competition. No heat illnesses, nobody passed out.

    My idea of a good weekend.

  37. Secondary Market says:

    well at 31 i can answer:

    -No CC debt
    -Yes Student Loan
    -Rent
    -Yes, albeit very little
    -Not regularly

  38. thatBIGwindow says:

    The curious thing is with all the amounting student debt, how will the next gen buy?

  39. kettle1 says:

    big window 32,

    you do not need a church to be spiritual! that is a classic marketing con i.e (you cant do activity X without my services)

  40. njpatient says:

    no boardroom boredom commenting on bberry this week folks. I’m on break! Spending my days with the Little Patients, and that means light posting.

    Welcome back from OBX, gary. Were your ears burning?

    I missed you, so I posted a rant, Gary style.

    You can search the term schadenfreude boy

  41. 3b says:

    #32 tbw:think it is nice to have a spiritual side. It is all about balance.

    You can have a spiritual side without going to church.

  42. njpatient says:

    kettle

    BS. Not only can you not do anything spiritual without the church, you can’t do it without MY church and MY denomination. Every other road leads straight to hell.

    Please make out your checks in denominations ending in zero.

    Thank you.

    The Management.

  43. njpatient says:

    Secondary – pity to miss you Friday, but we’ll get caught up sooner or later.

  44. AntiTrump says:

    Hello JB/KL/Sybarite

    Could you please give the address/history of GSMLS#: 2511738 & GSMLS#: 2519311.

    Thanks,
    AT

  45. Clotpoll says:

    lost (23)-

    “You’re not a pork rind fan are you? I never could understand eating that.”

    Some things defy logic. I can only explain it by telling you that there are certain things that get into your DNA when you grow up in the deep South. Not surprisingly, lots of these things involve disgusting food products. Here are the formative staples of my youthful diet:

    1. Moon Pies. Sort of an equivalent to a giant, flat, stale Ding Dong. When you eat a Moon Pie, you must wash it down with a:

    2. Nehi Soda. Jones Soda has nothing on Nehi. Cheap, flourescent, and triple the portion. Aka: “Bellywashers”.

    3. Pork Rinds. ‘Nuf said.

    4. Chocolate Soldier. The South’s version of YooHoo, except with a higher spoilage potential. Also an exciting drink, as you had to shake it before drinking, and every so often, the bottle would explode in your hand. You have to love a beverage that can double as fireworks.

    5. Country ham. A delivery system for salt. Served with red-eye (ham drippings, mixed with coffee). I’m pretty sure eating lots of this stuff stunted my growth.

    6. Cheerwine. Think of Nehi as sort of a gateway to this red, chemical-reeking, acidic brew. However, it’s still the only thing I’ve found that can kill a hangover cold. I know people in NC who are physically addicted to this swill.

  46. Clotpoll says:

    Hype (24)-

    They learned it from Citi.

  47. Secondary Market says:

    @43
    yes, it turned to be a long day but i’ll make more of an effort for the next gtg.

  48. SG says:

    From the link posted by SAS. Since NNJ & CNJ are located on the coast, and large percentage of population resides in NJ, I think the realistic index to use is S&P 10 City index.

    NAR numbers are more optimistic, but they use National Median numbers, which have not much relevance to NJ home prices. I dont trust their forecasting as in last boom-bust cycle, their analysis says, the bottom was reached in 1990, while in reality bottom was around 1993 or so.

    Based on Income level comparison

    If the S&P/Case-Shiller indices revert back to the normal level relative to income that prevailed in the mid to late 1990s, the 10-city composite index will post a peak-to-trough decline of 36.0 percent and the 20-city composite will see a peak-to-trough drop of 35.1 percent.

    Home Price Relative to Owners’ Equivalent Rent

    The 10-city composite shows a peak-to-trough decline of 42.2 percent, while the 20-city composite shows a peak-to-trough drop of 39.7 percent. Both indices bottom out in the first quarter of 2010.

    According to above forecast, the trough will be in 2010, and price drop at least 30%+ in NNJ and CNJ area.

  49. thatBIGwindow says:

    kettle1: Agreed

  50. Mike T. says:

    Whoever thinks those ‘social feel good clubs’ called churches are just as bad as anything never thought about the hospitals these churches support, the poor, the homeless, those inflicted with AIDS, the hundreds of thousands of missionaries that have educated the third world with western science, to include Japan and Hong Kong. Know anything about Japan? Some of the most prominent Universities are Christian. Man, ignorance sucks, maybe you should take that snobby intellectual szlong out of your mouth and start paying attention to reallity.

  51. thatBIGwindow says:

    Churches aren’t a bad thing for the community.

  52. 3b says:

    #33 Shore: I hate the MD shore — especially Ocean City, which is a major tacky dump that makes Seaside look like an old-money, button-down, pillar of class.

    well to each his own, but we will be heading down to Ocean City MD this year like we have for the last few years.

    It may not be for everybody, but at the people down there get the joke about real esate, and ther were rental bargains this year, as opposed to teh NJ shore, where many of the owners wer delusional. We were going to go to the Shore this year, but even with gas prices Ocean City was far cheaper.

    There are a lot of nice restaurants, amusement parks for the kids and various other activities to do.

    This may be the last year as my guys are getting older,but after doing the Shore, Cape Cod,and Ocean City Md over the years, OC is by far the better value with more activities especially for younger kids.

    Ocean City is by far the better value.

    Perhaps you need to lighten up a little bit.

  53. SG says:

    Shore Guy: I don’t know most towns on shore, but recently spent a week at Annapolis, MD. It is small family type place. Was good experience. Some night life, but not a whole lot. I though of it as good balance.

  54. kettle1 says:

    posted this late last night, thought i would repost….

    A list of recent signs that all is well

    1: $396 billion in asset writedowns and credit losses at more than 100 of the world’s biggest banks and securities firms as well as the $302 billion capital raised in response.

    2: Fannie and Freddie are leveraged some 62 times. And assuming the quote from The Economist Magazine is correct “Coincidentally, the ratio of FDIC’s fund to the total amount of insured deposits is similar to the capital ratios set aside by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac;If applied to the FDIC, that would mean that the $50+ billion in funds it holds now won’t be sufficient. Try $3 trillion.

    3: FDIC wants to increase premiums on member banks For banks that are already in trouble, these higher premiums pose a serious risk of pushing them over the edge. But wait; don’t they pay those premiums to prevent them from crashing?

    4: On Friday the SEC, the U.S. markets watchdog, amended its action from earlier in the week but limited the protection to 19 firms including U.S. housing finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac whose shares plunged on concerns they were undercapitalized.

    FDIC Chairman Sheila Bair said in an interview with C-SPAN television”Again, overwhelmingly, banks are safe and sound and healthy,” so I think the industry will be able to absorb the additional needs to keep those reserves strong, she said.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (HAHA’s mine)

    5: There is $75 trillion in global real estate, $50 trillion in annual global GDP, and $675 trillion in derivatives

    6: Gerard Cassidy, managing director of bank equity research at RBC Capital Markets, projects 150 bank failures over the next three years, with the highest concentration coming from states such as California and Florida where an overheated real estate market is in a fast freeze.

    But what happens if these 150 failures include WAMU, CITI, Wachovia etc? 50 billion isnt going to cover the guarenteed depositis!

    7: From the TIMES…….Britian is facing an “economic horror movie” because of a “toxic mixture” of a moribund credit market and volatile oil prices, according to a leading forecasting group.

    Peter Spencer, chief economist at the Item club, said: “Both on the high street and in the housing market it is going to get a great deal worse before it gets better. We have already seen a housing crisis that has morphed from a credit crunch to a general collapse in confidence as prices have tumbled.

    “The sharp fall in overall business optimism is very worrying and points towards a recession,” said [Graeme Leach, chief economist at the Institute of Directors.

    8: Real Estate Crisis Threatens Spanish Economy

    By Reiner Wandler in Madrid

    Spain’s economy is in trouble. Rising property values earlier this decade lured many Spaniards into the market. Now that the bubble has burst, the crisis is quickly spreading through the country’s economy.

    “I’ll give you a good price,” the man, who introduces himself on the phone as José, promises potential buyers. José has a flat in Seseña, a small town of 12,000 around 40 minutes by car from Madrid. Now, he wants to get rid of it — regardless of the financial hit he might take. The real estate agent who sold him the property insisted it was a safe investment for the future. But those promises dissolved into thin air not l

  55. kettle1 says:

    Can someone confirm or refute the item i posted

    5: There is $75 trillion in global real estate, $50 trillion in annual global GDP, and $675 trillion in derivatives

    I have seen this stated in multiple places but cannot find any info to back it up besides blog posts.

  56. njpatient says:

    15 TBW
    “-Do not have student loan debt”

    Presumably you’re not referring to doctors, lawyers or business folks. These are the prime years for having emerged from B-school, law school and medical school. How are those folks, at least, supposed to be free of student loans?

    I have student loan debt – a fair amount of it, because I had to put myself through school, both undergrad and law school (I didn’t have rich parents, so I had to do for myself). In anticipation of the “I worked my way through school, you should have as well” response, let me tell you that I worked three jobs throughout school, and I pinched pennies and when I drank it was Vendange, Gallo jugs, Schaefer or Purple Jesus. Don’t know how old you are, but in more recent years “working your way through school” doesn’t cut it, given that top institutions cost $45K a year (excluding food, energy and houing).

    So pardon me if I regard being student loan-free as not being much of a sign of virtue. To me, it is a sign that you are priviledged enough to have parents who were willing to pay your way through school – that’s luck, not virtue.

    One last thing: my remaining SL debt is consolidated at a rate of 2.75%. If I pay it off at any speed other than As Slowly As Humanly Possible, then you should point at me and laugh.

  57. njpatient says:

    ket
    “I have seen this stated in multiple places but cannot find any info to back it up besides blog posts.”

    This is a statement that should appear on the intertubes constantly.

  58. kettle1 says:

    For anyone who suggests that we are near the bottom, i challenge them to explain how we are going to hit bottom when the UK and Spain are hitting the wall real estate and financial wise.
    Granted most of our borrowed money comes from china and japan, but what happens to global credit markets as Europe starts to sink into the quagmire of debt and consumption? this certainly isnt going to help credit markets and housing in the US cannot stabilize until credit markets and the economy as a while do.

  59. njpatient says:

    50 Mike

    “Know anything about Japan? Some of the most prominent Universities are Christian. Man, ignorance sucks, maybe you should take that snobby intellectual szlong out of your mouth and start paying attention to reallity.”

    Wow. So the religious guy emphasizes his points by calling people c*cksuckers?

    Learn some history. Japan wasn’t some heathen jerkwater before the British arrived.

  60. Clotpoll says:

    patient (57)-

    Blog posts are way more credible than MSM. I just watched a You Tube of Paulson’s performance on Meet the Press yesterday…truly sickening.

    Is it just me, or does this guy’s tone of voice and body language just scream “I’m lying”????

  61. John says:

    Is it just me or when I meet someone and they identify themselves as “Christian” I get the feeling they belong to some type of brainwashing cult. Tom Cruise, Obama, etc. are all Christian as well as the Jehova witnesses and christian scientists and Al Sharpton. Most mainstream christians never use that term, they are catholic, greek orthodox, Luthern etc., the christians are usually nuts. I have a women down the block who is as I put it in a very nice way, insane, well she is on prozaic and some other kooky cocktails. Well anyhow a few years ago she had a still born baby. Well one of those movie theater give me 10% of your salary minsters, told her her child died cause she was not born again. God punished her for being a catholic, so she switched to his religion and gave him 10% of her salary and guess what the second kids was born normal. One of my daughters had play date their before I knew and thank god she got out of their without having her brain completely washed. Turns out she is now in the conversion business. The catholics, jews and other mainstream religions don’t try to get your kids to switch religions, whey do these “christians” religions do it. Oh yea, they are for profit and get 10% of your check to pay for the ministers, mistress, rolex and lexus.

  62. Clotpoll says:

    patient (59)-

    “So the religious guy emphasizes his points by calling people c*cksuckers?”

    Onward Christian soldiers? Of the helmeted variety?

  63. Al says:

    One last thing: my remaining SL debt is consolidated at a rate of 2.75%. If I pay it off at any speed other than As Slowly As Humanly Possible, then you should point at me and laugh.

    Same here – it is like you are getting paid for borrowing moneuy (my CD’s rates right now at 4.00%.)

    Interest on student loans are tax deductible.

    So why pay it off??

    Thats why I see a lot of trouble in securitized studnt loan markets once interest rate raises – rates went way to low… (sub 3% rates – crasy!).

    So there is tuition bubble going on – as with thouse low rates everybody thinks – let’s raise tuition!!!

  64. Young Buck says:

    44. AntiTrump Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 9:05 am
    Hello JB/KL/Sybarite

    Could you please give the address/history of GSMLS#: 2511738 & GSMLS#: 2519311.

    Thanks,
    AT

    MLS#: 2511738 18 1ST ST NEW PROVIDENCE BORO
    W 08/28/07 OLP 669,000 LP 669,000 DOM 97
    W 01/12/08 OLP 669,000 LP 659,000 DOM 103
    A 04/25/08 OLP 599,000 LP 599,000 DOM 87

    MLS: 193 MOUNTAIN AVE Warren Twp.
    X 05/01/06 OLP 899,000 LP 839,000 DOM 91
    X 08/04/06 OLP 839,000 LP 839,000 DOM 93
    W 11/06/06 OLP 839,000 LP 799,900 DOM 293
    A 05/19/08 OLP 725,000 LP 725,000 DOM 63
    W 02/07/08 OLP 749,900 LP 725,000 DOM 102

  65. njpatient says:

    45 clot

    Fun post
    Nehi – makes me think of Radar O’Reilly.
    Pork rinds – love ‘em.
    Moon Pies – invented by my sister-in-law’s folks.

  66. thatBIGwindow says:

    njpatient: My mother had put “$0.00″ towards my college education.

    I paid for myself to go without student loans. It possible to work through college (I went to a less expensive state school and commuted).

    True, I didnt get to go to those crazy dorm parties and drink myself silly, and it took me much longer than 4 years to graduate since I was working full time to pay for school, but I did it.

  67. Al says:

    kettle1 Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 9:27 am
    For anyone who suggests that we are near the bottom, i challenge them to explain how we are going to hit bottom when the UK and Spain are hitting the wall real estate and financial wise.
    Granted most of our borrowed money comes from china and japan, but what happens to global credit markets as Europe starts to sink into the quagmire of debt and consumption? this certainly isnt going to help credit markets and housing in the US cannot stabilize until credit markets and the economy as a while do.

    hey Real Estate in local – I think places like Detroit have hit bottom in some surburbs (I literally saw homes going for 1 year taxes!! – 2-3K). You do not expect people to pay you to buy a home in Detroit??

    However I am firm believer that NJ is just showing first cracks and decline will accelerate untill inwill collapse under the weight of unionized goverment workforce and Local REal etate taxes.

    NJ will be the first(??? is it?) state to go bankrupt.

  68. Al says:

    I paid for myself to go without student loans. It possible to work through college (I went to a less expensive state school and commuted).

    It is possible. However if you want to get into a top law firm – top law school is the only way to go.

    If you want to be an MD – you will have 15-50K tuition/year. not counting living expences. and that is after undegraduate.

    So not always possible – unless you can find work part time and make 100K/year!!!

  69. SG says:

    Clot: Is it just me, or does this guy’s tone of voice and body language just scream “I’m lying”????

    For Paulson,

    You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can make a fool of yourself anytime.

    He will be next David Lereah. I feel like starting a blog.

  70. njpatient says:

    62 al

    “So there is tuition bubble going on – as with thouse low rates everybody thinks – let’s raise tuition!!!”

    Yes.

    And the education/tuition bubble is unfolding more slowly even than the RE bubble. It’s still getting worse.

    The other day, some fool asked Mrs. Patient at a party what whe was doing to save up for the kids college tuition because “at the current rate of increase, by the time they’re ready for college you’re going to need to have $1M per kid saved up.” Mrs. Patient said “I wouldn’t use a million for college tuition. I’d send the kid to trade school, and they’ll be a mechanic or plumber with their own $1M investment fund at age 19.” Conversation ended quickly.

  71. thatBIGwindow says:

    Hey, I give these MD’s credit, not an easy thing, but for the average Joe getting a Communications degree there is no need to pack on all that debt while drinking themself silly.

  72. Al says:

    Mrs. Patient said “I wouldn’t use a million for college tuition. I’d send the kid to trade school, and they’ll be a mechanic or plumber with their own $1M investment fund at age 19.” Conversation ended quickly.

    That is my plan as well. Kid are paying their way through school. I will have a fund set up, and will just help them with either buying a house or life emergencies.

    I saw too many kids in my private school having Bank of Parents pay for partying lifestylwe while skimping on classes and studying.

  73. Orion says:

    What do these 3 letters stand for: FOM?
    Hint: related to mortgage industry

    Correct guess gets a virtual 1970′s style multi-colored plaid shorts.

  74. njpatient says:

    65 tbw

    “I paid for myself to go without student loans. It possible to work through college (I went to a less expensive state school and commuted).”

    Most of my debt is from law school, and if I had gone to Rutgers I’d be making 75% less than what I’m making now, so that wasn’t an option.

    I actually agree that going to an expensive undergraduate college is not a good idea, if you plan to go to law, business or med school. None of the latter give a damn where you went to undergrad; they only care about your LSAT, GMAT or MCAT, as applicable. So undergrad debt is unecessary.
    However, law/business/med school is another story. My firm only interviews out of approximately 8 law schools in the country. If you went to Rutgers, you’re SOL.

  75. lostinny says:

    Clot
    I know Nehi and MoonPies. It doesn’t matter how much time I’ve spent down south, I cannot do pork rinds. Right now, its because I’m a veggie. But even in my meat hayday, I couldn’t develop a taste for them.
    Right now on some morning show they were just discussing the nutritious value of pork rinds. I guess I missed out.

  76. njpatient says:

    70 tbw

    “for the average Joe getting a Communications degree there is no need to pack on all that debt while drinking themself silly.”

    I agree with that.

  77. njpatient says:

    al

    “I saw too many kids in my private school having Bank of Parents pay for partying lifestylwe while skimping on classes and studying.”

    My first week at law school, there was an orientation meeting for my entire class. At the end of it, someone said “this next part of the meeting is for those of you with student loans – if you have a loan, whether public or private and no matter how small, you need to stay to hear the next part of the meeting.”
    Most of the class stood up and walked out.
    I was completely floored.
    I guess people who are born to parents who are not wealthy really are stupid. Or something.

  78. Sybarite101 X says:

    -Do not have CC debt
    I charge as many expenses as I can to my Amex. Then pay it off every month. 1.5 – 5% on every purchase adds up over the course of a year.

    -Do not have student loan debt
    <$8k

    -Own their own house (that they can afford)
    Yes, but it’s a rental property. I don’t currently live there

    -Donate time and money to charities/non profit orgs/their communities
    Occasional, but not as much as I should

    -Go to church
    Only when required by family functions. I’m a practicing pastafarian.

  79. DL says:

    Ref #68. It’s not just Spain and the UK. Even in Germany, where there was no exotic financing, (you either have the money or you don’t) there are signs of RE market softening. Houses are now displaying for sale signs (a first) and vacant office space is a problem since the only business that seem to be able to support rents are the Dollar Store variety. Demographics are behind it. Buyers are scare as the average German family has 1.3 children. A typical marriage between the children of parents who are homeowners results in two houses, one to be lived in and one to be rented. The only demographic growing is foreigners and these immigrant families will not be homebuyers for generations.

  80. njpatient says:

    60 clot

    “Blog posts are way more credible than MSM.”

    I agree. As soon as I pressed “submit comment” I realized I was misrepresenting myself. I don’t trust the MSM, and I don’t tend to read an MSM column without fact-checking it on the internets. I was more referring to the tendency of long-debunked emails to continue being forwarded, and to certain “facts” to be repeated on certain more fever-swampish blogs until they become “true.”

    But between the NYTimes or WSJ on one hand and my trusty keyboard fingers on the other, I’ll take the intertubes every single time.

  81. John says:

    My Mother did not pay for any of our college, charged all four of her kids rent during college, made us pay for our own cars and made us do all the repairs at home. All four of her kids have graduate degrees. My aunts and uncles did the same and their are plenty of a doctor, lawyer, engineer, author in that generation. The younger crowd who did not pay their own way are prety much a lot less sucessful at work. Guess they were slackards in college and now they are slackards at work.

    BTW CUNY in 2008 charges $140 a credit. That is under 17k for a four year college degree. Summer internships pay $15 an hour or $600 a week. Full time in summer that is almost $10k. If you work part time all year that is almost another 10K. You easily in 2008 can pay for school, pay Mom rent and have enough money left over for a 3K used Taurus and still go to spring break. The kids all want to go to 40K schools and not work which is whey they are in debt.

  82. njpatient says:

    John
    As noted previously, there are certain jobs you’re simply not going to get with a law or business degree from CUNY. It sucks, but it’s true.

    Further, it’s nice that a generation ago you and your siblings were able to pay your way through college on your own, but a generation ago college tuition was 1/3rd what it is now.

    It’s like someone who’s 110 years old complaining that today’s kids can’t name all the presidents like she could when she was in first grade. Well, back then, there’d only been half as many presidents.

    Congratulations that your mom did the right thing, but the world has changed.

  83. thatBIGwindow says:

    njpatient, I went to a state school, and I am doing well for myself. In fact, I know people who didn’t even go to college, or even finish their degrees and are doing fine.

  84. ReadngtnDude says:

    RE: Church and finances.

    One interesting thought about all of this discussion about finances and churches. No one mentioned that many “biblical” churches emphasize many of the key financial characteristics discussed in this blog and so lacking in American society, today.

    Those include living within your means, limit borrowing to a minimum, normally only for “appreciating” assets such as homes or business investments (not cars, vacations, etc.) and maintaining long term goals and short term budgets achieve those goals

    There is a very good organization called Crown Financial (crown.org) that has helped hundreds of thousands of people over the past 20 or 30 years. They of course raise funds by donations and sell books, but are not “televangelists” by any means.

    RD.

  85. Secondary Market says:

    in re grad school. i’ve been putting some time into researching part time mba programs and just don’t know if it will be cost effective in the long run.
    i don’t think i’m smart enough to get into Wharton but on the other hand i don’t know if paying 20k to La Salle or 75k to Temple would land me a significantly better position.

  86. njpatient says:

    tbw
    “njpatient, I went to a state school, and I am doing well for myself. In fact, I know people who didn’t even go to college, or even finish their degrees and are doing fine.”

    That’s not the point. If I had made a list of virtues, and said that having student loan debt WAS a virtue, yours would have been a relevant response. But instead you posted a list of virtues, among which was NOT having student loan debt. I have been trying to explain that that is not necessarily the case, because you can have student loan debt and be “fine.”

    Somehow you concluded that it was me who said being free of student debt was necessarily bad. I didn’t say that.

    In fact, that’s backwards.

    You seemed to say (at comment 15) that having student loan debt is necessarily bad. About that, you are wrong.

  87. Secondary Market says:

    @85
    oddly, this took me back to a logic class i took in college. i wasn’t very good at it and got a C.

  88. njpatient says:

    84 secondary

    before you go (speaking of LaSalle/Temple), I would advise you have a good idea of specifically what difference you expect it to make to your job situation. I have know idea what the answer is.

  89. SG says:

    Secondary Market: Good question. I am in same boat.

    My boss did MBA from Kellogg, got the Job in company as they were just starting out. Though individually very talented, lacks the basics of management. Has no experience in building teams and getting work done in efficient and effective manner. Looking at him, I definitely feel the college name is too over-rated.

    The way I feel for Business, the key skill required is leadership, which I haven’t seen being taught in schools. You may get technical skills, Leadership is totally different ball game.

    I feel in fields like Law, Finance & Medicine, you have much more independent work component. In those areas, if you are talented and hang around brightest minds, is definitely more useful.

    Management on other hand is more of people skills, where sometimes talent leads to ego, which leads to lack of leadership. I personally have to come across great leader from Ivy Leagues. GW solidified some views.

  90. njpatient says:

    86 secondary
    At least you took the course. It’s a lost skill, and it drives me up a wall. Logic should be a required course at every undergrad institution in the country. It’s one of the most fundamental arts in classical education.

  91. Mike T. says:

    njpatient, your the one with the one that insists on talking with your mouth fool. Don’t be so surprised when someone complains about your bad breath

  92. thatBIGwindow says:

    Not necessarily bad to have student loan debt, but it is a better position to not have it at all.

  93. Nom Deplume says:

    [43] from yesterday

    Tom and Skep,

    The 215MM fine paid by Citi in 2002 did not have to do with their practices, but the practices of a company it purchased. CitiFin has plenty of detractors but the genesis of that particular fine was outside of citi, so it isn’t quite accurate to say it was because of their practices.

    All I can say is that my boots were on the ground here.

  94. Secondary Market says:

    @87.
    at the end of the day i suppose i’m just a salesmen. was trading distressed mbs, and somehow transitioned to advertising. (getting laid off last year was like leaving the beach before the tsunami).
    i think my goal with an mba is management driving. i’ve always been drawn to assisting and launching small start ups but as marriage, kid talk and overall life is has become more adult, i feel an mba would provide a safety net.

    @89,
    although, i always got A’s in philosophy. must be a left brain, right brain thing.

  95. Nom Deplume says:

    [52] 3b

    When are you going down to OC-MD? We are also going to OCMD in late Aug to rent with some friends and let our respective kids get silly with each other on beaches, amusements and cotton candy for a week.

    I know nothing of OC-MD so any pearls of wisdom are appreciated.

  96. njpatient says:

    91 TBW
    True, but the choice of having the student loan debt isn’t made in a vaccuum. I could have chosen no student loan debt, but I’d be making half the money I make now.

  97. njpatient says:

    90 Mike

    “njpatient, your the one with the one that insists on talking with your mouth fool. Don’t be so surprised when someone complains about your bad breath”

    I have no idea what you’re babbling about.

  98. Nom Deplume says:

    [4] Hawk,

    my latin sucks but that one is easy. I nominate Kettle1. Res ipsa loquitur.

    (NJP rolls eyes in disgust).

  99. Nom Deplume says:

    [90] Mike T.

    try the tin foil hat.

  100. 3b says:

    #91 tbw; I agree it is better not to have student debt at all, but the reality is many do.

    With my own Son, 3 years are on his Mom and me. the last he will pay for, the first 3 years were on us subject to maintainong his grades (which he did).

    The 4th year he will initially pay for, if he deos well We will end up paying that too, (but he does nto know it yet.

    I also agree that paying 40K or more a year top go to some so called elite private school is in most cases a wste of money, unless some one truly know that they are going to go to a top notch grad school or law school.

    In the case of my own Son, he has no desrire to work on Wall St, and I am very happy for that for a number of reasons.

    Amny people do pay the 40K year for under graduate in teh belief that it will make a difference and I belive that it really does not.

    40k a year for Lehigh lets say 40 a BA in Political Science vs 20k year for Rutgers for the same BA, not worth the difference.

    It is possible to get a basic BA/BBA today without going into extreme hock.

    For insance one could go to Ramapo for 8k a year and live at home, but than the neighbors would talk.

    In my dya grwoing up in the city most kids who went to collge (and most did not, and I am not that old), lived at home.

    Noiw you must get away to get the so called whole collge experience. My son wanted to dorm and we agreed subject to him maintianing his grades, but I would have had no problem had he chosen to stay home and commute;in fact I think it is the best of both worlds. 4 years away in college is nto my idea of the real world.

    Anyhow this increase in collge tuition will continue as long as people belive they have to pay this or else.

    How else can one justify the tuition increase. I had on person tell me that Fordham was almost Ivy League and therefore worth the 40K tuition.

    Fordham is a good school, but it is not and will not ever be Ivy League.

  101. DL says:

    The International Monetary Fund has abdicated into schizophrenia. It has upgraded its 2008 world forecast from 3.7pc to 4.1pc growth, whilst warning of a “chance of a global recession”. Plainly, the IMF cannot or will not offer any useful insights.

    Its “mean-reversion” model misses the entire point of this crisis, which is that central banks have pushed debt to fatal levels by holding interest too low for a generation, and now the chickens have come home to roost. True “mean-reversion” would imply debt deflation on such a scale that would, if abrupt, threaten democracy.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/07/21/ccview121.xml

  102. thatBIGwindow says:

    money is another thing: Usually those who make significant amounts of it have the stress and lack of time with family to go along with it. True, they get to enjoy the lifestyle, but at what price?

    Look at the typical young professional, running around with the laptop, blackberry, starbucks coffee in hand running from point a to point b with the phone glued to the ear talking business whether at the gym, office or at home. I refuse to be that.

  103. skep-tic says:

    #15

    How many 25 – 30 year olds living in NJ at this very moment in time:

    -Do not have CC debt
    -Do not have student loan debt
    -Own their own house (that they can afford)
    -Donate time and money to charities/non profit orgs/their communities
    -Go to church

    **********

    the only people I know like this have trust funds

  104. njpatient says:

    Nom
    “(NJP rolls eyes in disgust).”
    No eye-rolling here. Testes meus transeo et mori spero.

  105. njpatient says:

    102 skep

    You dealt with that so much more succinctly than I did.
    I am in humble agreement.

  106. njpatient says:

    101 TBW

    Fair point, and good for you.

  107. still_looking says:

    my fav:

    illigitimi non carborundum

    or it’s variations:

    Nil illegitimi carborundum.
    Non illegitimis carborundum.
    Illegitimi nil carborundum.
    Non illegitimi carborundum.
    Nil bastardo carborundum.
    Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
    Illegitimis non carborundum.
    Illegitimus non carborundum est.
    Nil illegitimo in desperandum carborundum

    sl

  108. ben says:

    3b Says,

    college tuitions are in a bubble as well. The government takes on those loans the same way Fannie and Freddie take on housing loans. People are already not paying their student loans and they aren’t able to loan out the money any more. This will force people to pay out of their own pocket for tuition which would cause schools to lower it.

    While I’m a Rutgers alum and still there at grad school, I told my brother that it might not be worth going there right now with tuition at 21k. They’ve been jacking it up 10% a year and if he went, by year 4, tuition could conceivably be 40k.

  109. Sean says:

    Greenspan is advising Jon Paulson of the Hedge Fund Paulson & Co, the hedge fund that made a bundle already on this credit crunching crisis.

    Jon Paulson still believes we have a ways to go and will be looking for opportunity once he feels we have hit the signal he’s looking for which is “a greater realization of anticipated losses.”

    from Forbes.com

    One Paulson Gets It Right
    Robert Lenzner, 07.21.08, 6:00 AM ET

    Step aide, Warren Buffett. Shuffle off, George Soros. The new genius in investment management is hedge fund maven John Paulson, who is known for the billions he made shorting subprime mortgage paper during 2007.

    Lucky are the well-heeled investors who have Paulson as their money manager this year. Prudently employing no leverage–that’s right, no borrowed money–Paulson’s funds are all up in 2008, some in the double digits. It’s a shrewd and brilliant strategy in troubled markets that tripped up many of his hedge fund brethren who never reduced their dangerous levels of debt and have now closed up shop.

    This Paulson, ranking No. 165 on our Forbes 400 list of richest Americans, is astute.

    His Credit Opportunities fund is up 10.48% after fees, while Credit Opportunities II has turned in 2008 performance of 12.12% after 20% fees. For Paulson, preserving these gains for the remainder of 2008 means betting that financial stocks and mortgages are still vulnerable to losing more value.

    Paulson does not believe that the financial crisis is over by any means. In one of his recent investor letters, he suggests that the financial crisis may rack up $1.3 trillion in red ink. That’s triple the $400 billion already taken, of which $48 billion belongs to Merrill Lynch (nyse: MER – news – people ) and an equivalent sum belongs to both Citigroup (nyse: C – news – people ) and UBS (nyse: UBS – news – people ), two banking giants that seem to have completely lost their way. Paulson’s prediction bears repeating for the deniers among us: The meltdown is only one-third done. Hang on for the drop.

    Paulson & Co. investment managers have been intensively researching 100 different financial institutions for bearish opportunities. “We target institutions with high degrees of leverage, high concentrations of assets in deteriorating sectors and rising credit costs,” Paulson wrote this spring. Targets for short sales included mortgage finance companies, specialty finance companies and regional, national and global banks.

    “While we are well along in the subprime mortgage crisis, we think we are only at the beginning of the broader economic downturn, and the time to buy is not when we are going into a recession but rather when we are coming out of or have exited the recession,” he wrote to his investors.

    Paulson suggests just five more months of pain, which may be too optimistic. Maybe around the last quarter of this year, Paulson predicts, “we expect the market may decline to a level where long opportunities will appear.” He’s indicated that we aren’t near “the precise entry point,” that it’s “still a fair distance away.” The signal he’s looking for is “a greater realization of anticipated losses.”

    So, what’s Paulson buying, if anything? He’s in big takeovers, because the event arbitrage funds were up 14.41% and 13.74% without leverage and 21.41% after 1.5 times leverage–sensational returns in the face of a stock market off 20% since last October. He also claimed months ago that he was long health care, tobacco and utilities–those parts of the economy that do the best in a recession.

    Looking forward, Paulson is raising cash for “substantial long opportunity in the near future” in roughly $10 trillion of troubled debt securities in the mortgage, corporate and financial area.

    He may want to look at the deeply distressed market for auction rate preferreds, where investors like New Yorker Edward Dowling are hugely upset that $2.65 million of securities issued by Nuveen, BlackRock (nyse: BLK – news – people ), Eaton Vance (nyse: EV – news – people ), Neuberger Berman and Van Kampen are frozen at his broker, Oppenheimer & Co.

    “I was told … that it was a money market alternative, totally safe because it was secured by AAA-rated municipal bonds, 100% liquid every seven days. Fraud,” Dowling claims.

    So believes the state of Massachusetts, which recently sued UBS for pushing what were promoted as “cash alternatives/money market instruments.” Imagine: UBS securities were given “due diligence” by UBS investment bankers. Since 10 state agencies raided Wachovia’s (nyse: WB – news – people ) brokerage office (formerly A.G. Edwards) in St. Louis last week, we’ll soon find out about that bank’s role in this frozen market of $360 billion.

    As a public service, Croesus wants all holders of auction rate securities to know that Barry Silbert of Restricted Securities Trading Network, a transparent electronic trading system, stands ready to buy auction-rate munis at a 2% to 6% discount, preferred stocks at a 5% to 15% discount, student loan auction rates at a 15% to 30% discount and those radioactive CDOs at more than a 50% discount. Now, that’s showing those miserable well-known issuers what a little ingenuity can accomplish.

    http://www.forbes.com/2008/07/20/paulson-buffett-soros-oped-cx_rl_0721croesus.html?feed=rss_news

  110. Sybarite101 X says:

    hehehehe, you said testes.

  111. njpatient says:

    3B

    “I also agree that paying 40K or more a year top go to some so called elite private school is in most cases a wste of money, unless some one truly know that they are going to go to a top notch grad school or law school.”

    Even then I think the undergrad debt is of questionable value given that the elite post-grad schools don’t care where you went to undergrad, and only care about your test score.

  112. Mike T. says:

    njpatient, you’re right, you have no idea.

  113. chicagofinance says:

    Tom Says:
    July 20th, 2008 at 11:23 pm
    It’s like a butcher that sells grade A prime beef. Customers love it, it’s a good standard but the price doesn’t give you a lot of bang for the buck. So he finds some cheaper beef that’s of less quality but the price makes people try it. Some people are very happy and can’t tell the difference, other people must have gotten some bad cuts and aren’t happy. So the butcher decides to start selling it as ground beef and mixing up different cuts to even things out. People love it and love the price and demand rises.

    This is where we’re probably going to diverge…

    With the increase of demand the butcher has a hard time finding even decent meat and there’s more and more crap mixed in. But there’s been a ground beef grading association that’s been giving inflated marks to his new ground beef either through incompetence or collusion with the butcher. But the butcher isn’t too concerned. He knows his clients don’t eat the meat right away, they freeze it and won’t know for some time. Now even the bad cattle is scarce and he’s grinding any kind of meat he can get his hands on, he doesn’t care what it is. Eventually when people thaw it out and eat it they realize they didn’t get what they paid for.

    The borrowers in this analogy are the meat wholesalers. They start out as legitimate businesses but by the end the butcher convinced some guy that works at the animal shelter to slip him some euthanized animals under the table. The guy didn’t think it was a good idea at first but the butcher threw a lot of money at him and told him everything would be ok.

    And none of that would have been possible if the banks used more traditional lending guidelines and didn’t lend to this guy in the first place if he couldn’t pay for it.

    Giving out all that credit has a similar effect in devaluing the dollar as printing more money does.

    Tom: I like this…I don’t agree with your conclusions entirely though, but a great read and nothing figuratively inaccurate from my perspective……one of the better posts around here for several weeks methinks…

  114. skep-tic says:

    #62

    “Interest on student loans are tax deductible.”

    incorrect. there is a measely tax credit which phases out pretty quickly as your income goes up. many of the people with the most ed. debt are unable to deduct anything.

  115. njpatient says:

    111 Mike T.

    If you continue to post comments that are completely devoid of substance, eventually everyone will stop reading your posts – even the people that, in your religious fervor, you insist on calling c*cksuckers.

  116. njpatient says:

    113 skep
    Correct. Again. Fella makes a habit of it.

  117. chicagofinance says:

    My favorite latin phrase….

    eamus metropoli

  118. John says:

    NJ Patient, way back in the 1980s, kids applied to schools they could afford to attend, not schools they could get into. I applied only to SUNY schools and St. Johns because St. John’s was the cheapest private school and since my brother went there I could hop a ride there for free in his dodge dart. If you kids only applied to schools they could afford they would have did two years at a community college then picked the cheapest private college they could find for years 3 and 4 and then went to a company that paid for graduate school and did that part time. I hire a lot of HEOP/EOP disadvantaged economically kids for my interns cause I don’t have time to change your childrens diapers and pat them on the head every five minutes like you did every day for the last 21 years.

    njpatient Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 10:03 am
    John
    As noted previously, there are certain jobs you’re simply not going to get with a law or business degree from CUNY. It sucks, but it’s true.

    Further, it’s nice that a generation ago you and your siblings were able to pay your way through college on your own, but a generation ago college tuition was 1/3rd what it is now.

  119. njpatient says:

    109 Syb
    “hehehehe, you said testes.”

    Pretty easy translation on that one.

  120. AntiTrump says:

    #63 Young Buck:

    Thanks for the info. Looks like these sellers are still in Lala land !!

    They should visit the real world before they re-list after this listing expires !!

  121. still_looking says:

    118- ??

    My latin is that bad I guess…

    sl

  122. njpatient says:

    117 john

    “If you kids only applied to schools they could afford they would have did two years at a community college then picked the cheapest private college they could find for years 3 and 4 and then went to a company that paid for graduate school and did that part time.”

    The first part I agree with, and that is what I will likely advise my kids to do. The second part I disagree with. If the kid can get into Wharton, or Chicago B, or Harvard Law, I’ll tell them to go.

  123. still_looking says:

    oops meant 119

  124. ben says:

    if we were near bottom, we wouldn’t be worrying about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac going insolvent.

  125. njpatient says:

    SL
    hint
    Chi’s a Mets fan.

  126. njpatient says:

    SL
    Oh.
    You meant me.

    It means “Cross my balls and hope to die.”

  127. chicagofinance says:

    One of my disturbing experiences from several years ago was a home owner (former military guy) who had a meticulously furnished modest home, nice cars in the driveway, and was married with two kids. Made a roughly $120,000 a year and had a 30-year fixed mortgage at 9.5%. I dug deeper to ask why? Personal bankruptcy several years previous. OK. Then I reviewed his 1040 and saw his charitable contributions….he was chucking $30,000 a year to his church…..I asked him why? fully understanding that such a question might get me boot stomped with my teeth left in a neat pile on his driveway. He looked at me quizzically and said “…the reverend tells me to…” I said “…is this man aware of your personal circumstances?” answer… “yes”….

  128. kettle1 says:

    patient,

    i have a family member who works in the administration of rutgers univ. The college has seen the initial effects of the tuition bubble and the response has been to jack up enrollment despite departmental requests/complaints that their classes are over enrolled.
    The decision makers have decided that if they cannot maintain the funding level provided by the tuition bubble then they will makeup for it by jamming as many students as possible into classes. Besides its not about quality education, its about numbers$$$$ right?
    The department heads and the professors are steaming mad about this, but apparently have been unable to do much about as the administration responds by suggesting further staff.

  129. 3b says:

    #111 njpatient: Agreed.But most parents do not see it that way, because I have found many are clueless.

    And people will pay the big bucks, even if it kills them and I know quite a few who are being killed, in order to get that sticker on the back window of the SUV.

  130. John says:

    Wow NJ Patent, if your kids knew how to drive a Rolls Royce would they get one too. Lately I have been hiring the HEOP kids, they get a free ride at college in NY if they have the grades AND meet the income levels. (See below for 2008 incomes). I am super impressed with their work ethic. I don’t think I may ever hire a snot nosed punk rich kid straight out of school again. They are ok, after they get beat up for a few years, but fresh out of school they expect too much. I have two staff interns from HEOP and both are fantastic!!!

    New York State Opportunity Programs
    Income Eligibility Criteria
    2008-2009
    Number of Dependents 2008-09
    1 $15,140
    2 $20,390
    3 $25,650
    4 $30,900
    5 $36,150
    6 $41,410
    7 $46,660¹

  131. skep-tic says:

    the problem is that there is wide deviation in the worth of degrees from various colleges/universities, but almost all of them cost roughly the same. A few of them are certainly worth it, in my opinion, and a very small few may be worth even more than what they charge. As NJP has said, there are certain jobs that are almost impossible to get unless you graduate from one of a few schools. It is kind of stupid, but that is the reality. Now we all know or have heard of people who are high school dropouts who are wildly successful. Yet no one would say that it is the smart percentage play to drop out of high school. To me, the elite school question is basically the same. It is not necessary, but if you have the opportunity, it is probably the smart percentage play, despite the high cost.

  132. make money says:

    Ben (124)

    They are insolvent. The only question is how much will we have to print to “re-capitalize” them.

  133. 3b says:

    #118 John: Yeah St John’s was on my list too. Back in the day in my neighborhood for those who went to college, it was Iona, Fordham, Manhattan or St John’s.

    I got a free ride to Iona, so that is where I went.

  134. grim says:

    He looked at me quizzically and said “…the reverend tells me to…” I said “…is this man aware of your personal circumstances?” answer… “yes”….

    Dire Straits, Ticket to Heaven

    now there’s nothing left for luxuries
    nothing left to pay my heating bill
    but the good lord will provide
    I know he will
    so send what you can
    to the man with the diamond ring
    they’re tuning in across the land
    to hear him sing

    I got my ticket to heaven
    and everlasting life
    I got a ride all the way to paradise
    I got my ticket to heaven
    and everlasting life
    all the way to paradise

  135. make money says:

    Skep(131),

    You sound like a big league manager playing the percentages. Life is a lot more complicated.

  136. Rich In NNJ says:

    Wykcoff Comp Killer!

    SOLD: 15 NEELEN DR $735,000 12/12/2004

    MLS#: 2815100
    Orig List: $749,000 4/14/2008
    SOLD: $687,000 7/18/2008

  137. Rich In NNJ says:

    Englewood FUTURE Comp Killer!

    SOLD: 461 LIBERTY RD $435,000 8/29/2005

    MLS#: 2830752 (REO)
    Orig List: $489,000 4/30/2007
    Last Last: $399,000 7/21/2008

  138. House Hunter says:

    #45 clot…don’t forget pork biscuits and nana puddin’

  139. kettle1 says:

    clot, house hunter…

    there is also the breakfast delicacy of buttered biscuits smothered in white KARO syrup (pure corn syrup for those not from the south)

  140. Rich In NNJ says:

    Tenafly FUTURE Comp Killer!

    SOLD: 89 JEFFERSON AVE $515,000 9/17/2005

    MLS#: 2830679 (REO)
    List: $395,000 7/19/2008

  141. John says:

    “To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence.” Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)

  142. njpatient says:

    130 John

    Yet again, and this is the last time, I am not talking about undergrad/college, where I have said repeatedly that it is stupid to pay big bucks to go to the big name school. On that point I am not disagreeing with you.

    Please read the above paragraph twice. Try to keep it in your head.

    I am talking about post-grad programs; i.e., law school, as in people who will not be interviewing with you for a job.

    Read paragraph one again in case you missed it or forgot already. Not sure of you are being intentionally blind or unintentionally obtuse.

  143. still_looking says:

    126 njp :-D ok… got it thanks!

    sl

  144. John says:

    Interesting enough, student loans were orignally given by banks to professions with a high degree of likeyhood of a high income and the loans would get paid back. Doctors, Lawyers, Accoutants etc. Then the govt started buying the loans and took the risk of default from the bank. Now devry tech, history majors, internet schools etc. students are all given loans because the banks sell it off and could care less if you are in debt, have no job and can’t pay it back.

  145. Rich In NNJ says:

    Dumont FUTURE Comp Killer!

    SOLD: 126 MCKINLEY AVE $405,000 11/18/2005

    MLS#: 2731980
    Orig List: $430,000 8/6/2007
    Last List: $350,000 7/19/2008

  146. John says:

    No parent should ever pay a single nickle towards graduate school. At that point they are adults and should take care of it themselves.

  147. njpatient says:

    134 grim
    Love that band. For the Princess Bride fans here, did you know Mark Knopfler wrote the soundtrack?

  148. kettle1 says:

    Nom,

    So i am being nominated as watcher? my latin sucks…..

    what is
    .Testes meus transeo et mori spero.

  149. still_looking says:

    chi, 127

    I have a colleague who despite working much more than me (makes 2x my income) is in hock to his teeth. Dangerously so…

    HELOC to pay off CC debt, mortg > 3K, after 5 yrs still has a pile of crap in storage at >500/mo

    Still hasn’t bought in as a full partner (which yields >45K at my # of hrs, he’d yield closer to 60K based on his hrs.)

    …and still gives 10% GROSS to his wife’s church

    I just shake my head.

    sl

  150. Shore Guy says:

    ChiFi
    “eamus metropoli”

    Which, as I recall, means: our proximity to Manhattan means thatvhouse values will never decline, and will likely always increase by double-digit amounts YoY.

  151. njpatient says:

    146 john

    “No parent should ever pay a single nickle towards graduate school.”

    I won’t pay, but I’ll advise them to go to Wharton if they get in. Notice this was a discussion about student loan debt, and my entire thesis is that some student loan debt can be a good thing. You have finally acknowledged that (a) there is a difference between college and graduate school and (b) that it is better that the kid borrow his way through grad school.

    This is the position that I was advocating. You are agreeing with my position. I doubt you intended to.

  152. Shore Guy says:

    Well, that or “there are huge flightless birds running around in the city.”

  153. njpatient says:

    148 kettle
    That was what SL asked
    Cross my balls and hope to die.

  154. Secondary Market says:

    @144
    “…students are all given loans because the banks sell it off and could care less if you are in debt, have no job and can’t pay it back…”

    sounds familiar, no?

  155. Cindy says:

    “A rolling loan gathers no moss”

  156. NNJJEFF says:

    Can someone with MLS access give us the status of #2810230. under contract yet?

    thanks in advance

  157. John says:

    Re 151, no I don’t think you should ever take out a loan for school or ask your parents for money. The reason we have runaway tuition inflation is due to free govt money and Moms and Dads writting fat checks. On a macro basis you are making the problem worse. Of course no one cares about a macro basis so the checks keep flooding in.

    Brillant kids get scholorships, Poor kids get financial aid and stupid kids with rich parents pay for it all.

  158. NJCoast says:

    I have to thank the buyers of our home for my 2 childrens’ college and graduate school education. No student loans here- a gift I was happy to give and hopefully a good investment. So far the kids are alright!

  159. Zack says:

    At this point I want to thank the buyers of my house who bought my overinflated POS house thus funding my retirement and kids education.
    Thanks you buyers.

  160. njpatient says:

    157 john

    “no I don’t think you should ever take out a loan for school”

    You’re wrong about that. I took out a loan for law school and it worked out well. If I hadn’t, I’d be earning half what I make now and I’d be answerable to some fool like you.

  161. make money says:

    http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/without-mergers-wilson-moves-treasury/story.aspx?guid=%7BA3D63B3C%2D6DDC%2D4DF4%2DAFCA%2DD0ECCCE8ED99%7D

    You gotta Love Wilson for taking a leave from Goldman to Volunteer at the Treasury.

    Makes me Wonder who is behing the “Goldman Mafia”.

    Who does Loyd, Hank and the rest report to.

  162. While it is obvious why people try to use Latin, most would be better off foregoing the conceit.

  163. make money says:

    Financing you Education is not th esame as borrowing to consume. At the end of the day your most important asset is yourself.

    A Surgeon borrows 250K for med school and makes that money back in 20 surgeries. Bad investment?

  164. skep-tic says:

    #157

    “Brillant kids get scholorships, Poor kids get financial aid and stupid kids with rich parents pay for it all.”

    This is not the whole story. Most kids in college are from middle class families. They usually get some grants, but most of their financial aid is loans.

    If you go to a top school there are no merit scholarships. Personally, I agree with NJP that it is better to graduate from a top school with some debt rather than get a full ride at a school way down the list (which are the ones that give out a lot of merit grants). Doing the opposite is really prioritizing the short term over the long term in many cases.

    I disagree with NJP on the undergrad issue. Just as with graduate school, though maybe not to the same degree, there are jobs out of undergrad that are extremely hard to get or maybe even impossible unless you come from one of a few schools. If getting into one of those fields is your goal, it is worth it to take on the debt.

    I should emphasize that I have met many dumb, lazy people who went to Ivy League schools, but the fact is that pedigree definitely matters in some industries.

  165. 3b says:

    #140 Rich OUCH!!!

  166. make money says:

    Wachovia wholesale is shutting down today. Press release at 1PM.”

    “All us reps were told this morning by top managment that wholesale will be completely shutdown by August 31st and a conference call will be this afternoon. All reps were called Sunday afternoon on the east coast…both Portfolio and marketable products.”

    hat tip to implodometer

  167. kettle1 says:

    I have found a couple of maintstream sources that put total derivatives at approx $520 trillion as of march/april 08. So my previous number is at least in the ball park….

    global GDP is approx 65 trillion. I am not a banker, but isnt that level of leverage compared to the global GDP concerning???

  168. still_looking says:

    166 skep

    Yes. Undergrad matters if you are not going further. Undergrad matters less if you are picking a grad school.

    NJP is exactly correct w/r to law school. Better school = better opportunities.

    Med school — better class standing/interview/connection = better residency. School not so much. Good school and bad performance/rep = bad residency.

    I can’t comment on MBAs.

    Don’t forget FAMILY pedigree… every law school app I filled out asked “Is a family member an alumnus?”

    Student loan debt is not such an issue… You get a job, you work, you pay it off.

    sl

  169. 3b says:

    #166 skeptic: should emphasize that I have met many dumb, lazy people who went to Ivy League schools, but the fact is that pedigree definitely matters in some industries.

    I have met many of them as well, having worked at Goldman for many years.

    However, going forward I am nto sure how much even an Ivy League degree witll be worth. Hey just look at what lots of those ivy league graduates did to the “street” and the country’s financial system this time!!! In my mind it does not say too much.

  170. make money says:

    Kettle(169),

    You don’t have to be a meteologist to look out the window and know it’s raining.

  171. grim says:

    In my younger days I had the benefit of attending an Ivy League school. Well, not the school, actually, but the parties. Those Princeton eating club kids know how to throw a serious bash (big thanks go out to Cap, Ivy and Cottage, in particular). Hey, at least I didn’t need to pay tuition.

    State school parties just weren’t the same after that.

  172. kettle1 says:

    make money,

    the 50 billion that the FDIC is holding to cover insured accounts is toast if wachovia and 1 or 2 other big boys go down, as the FDIC expects 100+ banks to go under. 2 or 3 of the big banks going down could eat up the 50 billion on their own. What about the other 100+ banks the FDIC expects to go under ????
    Ready for the next congressional circus on bailing out the FDIC???? I have read estimates that the expected bank failures could go to hundreds of billions of insured accounts needing to be covered/funded.

  173. 3b says:

    Rich: When you get a chacne can you check ont he sales history and taxes for this listing in River Edge.

    njmls 2830183. For these sellers obviously the dream of 2005 prices is still alive.

  174. Nom Deplume says:

    [104] NJP

    hey, I went to school with Mori Spero.

    [107] Still,

    I assume you mean Mike T.?

  175. Nom Deplume says:

    [173] Grim

    I preferred Smith and Mt. Holyoke. Great parties and a target-rich environment.

  176. kettle1 says:

    172 make,

    but paulson and bernanke said everything was ok?!?!?!?! =0

  177. ben says:

    “You’re wrong about that. I took out a loan for law school and it worked out well. If I hadn’t, I’d be earning half what I make now and I’d be answerable to some fool like you.”

    Loans only makes sense when tuition is affordable. Tuition is at a serious disconnect from the value of the education and has been for the past 5 or 6 years.

  178. grim says:

    You know, it was somewhere outside the dorms at Princeton that I learned that I didn’t particularly care for gin, at least in quantity.

    A useful life lesson learned.

  179. Nom Deplume says:

    [168] Make,

    Crap. Less wholesale means less lines for the brokers. That won’t help rates.

    I locked at a decent rate with Wells Fargo, but they are reputedly bastards to deal with so I am going to beat them about the ears for a commitment letter (and remind them that I have their primary regulators on speed dial).

    Unless I stay a renter of course.

  180. ben says:

    #165 makemoney,

    “A Surgeon borrows 250K for med school and makes that money back in 20 surgeries. Bad investment?”

    My father is a physician and I know a few people my age that just finished up their residency. Doctors aren’t nearly making that much money anymore and are now struggling to pay back that debt. The only doctors that are making money right now are the doctors in cosmetics because they don’t have to deal with medicaid, medicare, or insurance companies. I elected to not go to medical school precisely because the 200+k in loans didn’t make sense. Keep in mind, doctors have to take a 3-6 year residency before they even start practicing. By that time, they are near or in their 30s. Most doctors will be paying off that debt over a long long time.

  181. jam says:

    [157 & 160] Education loans aren’t a bad thing. It’s the extra loans/money they tempt you with when you apply.
    I know someone who took out loans for college, grad school (twice) and at those times was offered a 5K per semester living expense loan. Also the interest accrues even before you start paying it off. That adds up.
    You can’t discharge them in bankruptcy and considering that, the interest rates should be lower.
    They should give the kids a truth in lending statement so they can see what those loans will really cost them.

  182. Hobocondo says:

    I intend to save enough money for my kids to go all the way through to grad school if they choose. It’s hard enough to do without worrying about money.

    I dislike all the animosity directed toward people whose parents helped them through school. What’s wrong with that? That their parents know how to save? That they value education?

    For the record, I had scholarships for half of undergrad (parents paid the rest) and graduated with a Ph.D. debt-free (via stipends, teaching positions, etc.). My husband’s undergrad was paid by his parents, but he had $100K of loans after graduating from professional school. He, and then we, saved like crazy and it was paid off less than 10 years after graduation (just after we were married).

  183. jam says:

    [180] It was Cutty Sark for me. Thanks for the memories.

  184. kettle1 says:

    re school loans:

    like everything else you have to risk analysis. The US army paid for my schooling 100% when ti was all said and done. Technically i actually made money off the deal (not much but some). The trade off was that i could be sent to war. The risk analysis was that the US goes to war (or police action) every 10 years. Based on this i figured there was a high probability of me squeezing in between 2 wars based on my college time line. It work and i just missed be sucked into iraq. To each their own, but there is almost always another path.

  185. grim says:

    Bonus points for the longest link ever posted here.

  186. thatBIGwindow says:

    3b: They bought that house in 1998 for $257,000

  187. thatBIGwindow says:

    3b: Also

    Land: $271,400
    Imp: $154,300
    Tot Assesed: $425,700

    Taxes: $9,450

  188. ben says:

    “I may be no brain surgeon, but you need to be one to follow the link to their salary in new york/new jersey

    http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_salaryresults.asp?hdKeyword=brai

    What percentage of physicians are surgeons? Most of them are pediatricians or ER doctors.

  189. Stash says:

    #103

    How many 25 – 30 year olds living in NJ at this very moment in time:

    -Do not have CC debt
    -Do not have student loan debt
    -Own their own house (that they can afford)
    -Donate time and money to charities/non profit orgs/their communities
    -Go to church

    **********

    the only people I know like this have trust funds

    Not entirely true:
    - I am 28

    - No credit card debt. Pay off full amount each month, so not to get charged with interest.

    - No student loan debt. Went to Seton Hall undergrad, received scholarship for half the tuition, parents footed the bill for the other half of tuition on grounds that I received good grades. Graduate Cum Luade. Also saved money by commuting and not living on campus.

    Wanted to finish my MBA while I was young and before I got married. Given my little work experience I didn’t get into Stern, so just bit the bullet and did my part time MBA at Rutgers. Found a company that paid my tuition.

    - Don’t own my own house yet, but am currently sitting on cash for a down payment and am currently waiting for the market to go lower.

    - Donate to charities and try to partake in charitable events to raise money. But I don’t go overboard.

    - Go to church every Sunday, unless I am away somewhere.

    And for those who say you need to go to a good business school to get a high paying job. I worked hard and hustled my way up to where I am today. Currently an AVP at a large insurance company making very good money. And when I graduated in 2001 with a Computer Science degree, I couldn’t find a job for anything, so I took the first thing I could find starting at $36k. I think if your halfway smart and dedicated to reaching a goal then eventually you will get to where you want to be.

  190. Clotpoll says:

    (61)-

    Put this one in the lexicon of John:

    “prozaic”

    Not to be confused with “prosaic”.

  191. make money says:

    Ben(182)

    I had a knee surgery done with a well established physician at the hospital of Special Surgery.

    He wanted 40K for the surgery, I negotiated down to 32K in cash. (worth every penny)

    The physician performed two of those surgeries that day.

    Not bad for a days work.

  192. Clotpoll says:

    vodka (139)-

    I was raised on a baby formula of condensed milk, fortified with Karo syrup.

    Good thing my pancreas didn’t fail by the age of two.

  193. Clotpoll says:

    My Mom also drank bourbon and smoked three packs of Salem a day…while she was pregnant with me.

  194. homebuyer says:

    grim,

    out of curiosity give us the 2 cents on how those ivy parties were different.

  195. Hobocondo says:

    2 things I learned about my education the hard way (and regret that I didn’t do either):

    1) Go away to school for undergrad
    2) Attend the best school you get into (regardless of cost)

  196. Homer says:

    Just stopping by. Haven’t been here in a while. Not sure if this was posted, but anyone who dislikes Corzine
    http://www.recallcorzinenow.com/
    spread the word
    Article from NJ.com

    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/07/corzine_recall_effort_falls_sh.html

  197. RayC says:

    197

    If grim could remember, it wouldn’t be worth remembering…

  198. thatBIGwindow says:

    Hobocondo: “That their parents know how to save? That they value education?”

    My mother knew how to save, but could not pay for my college on her income…which I am happy for because

    1. I became more responsible
    2. My mother does not have to work anymore.

  199. John says:

    Doctors are boring. In my HS in Great Neck the nerds studied night and day for four years of HS, Four Years college, Four years of Medical school and then another four years of residency. They did not get to see any tail until they were 30 with a receeding hairline. Funny part the hot jewish girls in my HS, all dated jocks partied like crazy with the good looking guys and they gave it up around 27 and married one of the 30 year old doctors and then a few years later divorced them after they finished student loans and took them to the cleaners. Seeing that happen again and again was funny. Then again, going to keg parties and medical school does not mix anyhow.

  200. Homer says:

    my bad nevermind, been a long weekend of moving petitions over, maybe we can try again another time

  201. kettle1 says:

    clott,

    sounds like we may have a fair amount in common….. but then again it appears that we both born south of the mason dixon line.

  202. grim says:

    out of curiosity give us the 2 cents on how those ivy parties were different.

    Fifth..

  203. Laughing all the way says:

    How many 25 – 30 year olds living in NJ at this very moment in time:

    -Do not have CC debt
    -Do not have student loan debt
    -Own their own house (that they can afford)
    -Donate time and money to charities/non profit orgs/their communities
    -Go to church

    We live in Bucks Cty, but my wife falls in this age bracket:
    check
    check
    no
    no
    check

  204. Laughing all the way says:

    actually, on #4, there’s a small yes in there (recently gave to the troops)

  205. Hobocondo says:

    200. BIGwindow – clearly when you can’t pay for your child’s education, you just can’t do it.

    But when you can, why not? Why the snide comments like “Oh, Daddy’s paying…”

    Why is it assumed that if parents are paying for education that the child is any less responsible than if they had to foot the bill themselves?

    So where does that leave my husband, who had undergrad paid for by his folks, but had to foot the bill himself for grad school? Did he suddenly get more/less responsible?

    Responsibility is learned WAY before one gets to college, in most cases.

  206. Clotpoll says:

    vodka (203)-

    “sounds like we may have a fair amount in common….. but then again it appears that we both born south of the mason dixon line.”

    Hell, we’re probably cousins and share a family predisposition toward insanity…as well as a family tree dotted with a handful of black ancestors.

    That describes me, and probably 90% of everybody who has several generations of family who lived in the deep South.

  207. Clotpoll says:

    Nobody seems to get termed “insane” anymore. It’s always “bipolar” or “mood disorder”.

    I say we start calling it like it is. Bring back insane!

    Also, we should bring back “stupid”.

  208. Al says:

    Donation to charity – my wife is catholic, so we were donating money to the church we go to until last year.

    One day our Deacon was not there anymore and Metuchen archdioceses Monsignor announced that he is arrested and under church/police investigation for several alleged cases of sexual abuse of adults/teenagers. Metuchen archdioceses was named as a defendant in pending lawsuit…

    “WE ALL SHOULD PRAY FOR QUICK RESOLUTION OF THIS UNFORTUNATE SITUATION” he said.

    “WOW – OUR DONATIONS HAS PAID FOR 30 MINUTES OF CHURCH’S LAWYERS TIME, HONEY” – I said.

    Sadly in non-related event Catholic Church decided to close catholic school at your location’

    “IT HAS NO RELATIONSHIP TO THE SITUATION WITH DEACON, WE JUST DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY”.

    After that I did not feel like donation anymore.
    Every word is real.

  209. thatBIGwindow says:

    hobocondo: My wife had a full ride for her grad and undergrad from her parents. They could do it, and raised her to be a responsible person.

    Most people though will simply party themselves silly…and I must admit if my mother paid for me to go to college I would have probably done the same.

  210. ben says:

    makemoney,

    “He wanted 40K for the surgery, I negotiated down to 32K in cash. (worth every penny)”

    You coulda gotten him down to about 10k. Hell, medicare would give him about 5k. If you offered him 5k in cash, in a bag, he’d probably do it.

  211. Rich In NNJ says:

    NNJJEFF (156),

    Must be on GSMLS unless you’re talking about a condo in Englewood?

    ————————

    3B (175),

    No prior listing history.
    Per the tax records, as TBW points out they purchased the home in 1998 for $257,000 with a $200,000 mortgage.
    They then proceeded to withdraw equity and/or refinance:
    $50,092 4/23/2001 PNC BK
    $30,000 4/23/2001 PNC BK
    $250,000 1/17/2002 AMERICAN FED’L MTG
    $50,000 2/4/2003 PNC BK
    $30,000 2/4/2003 PNC BK
    $300,000 9/2/2003 ABN AMRO MTG GRP INC
    $80,000 4/26/2005 PNC BK NATIONAL ASSN
    $300,000 3/21/2008 CITIMORTGAGE

  212. kettle1 says:

    Clot,

    your description is probably accurate. I helped do research for a family history and wow, there are some stories. not for public blogs, but next time i see at a GTG, it reads like a duke of hazards episode at times.

    By the way, one side of my family was one of the first white settlers in western TN, yes that is a very scary thing

  213. thatBIGwindow says:

    Al: I was raised Catholic, and I attended Catholic middle school where a priest did things to a male student.

    I converted to Protestant simply because no normal person would give up their human orientation and drive in the name of God. I think that is the major problem with the Catholic church. They need to let the priests marry, and will subsequently attract more normal people who really want to do good opposed to disguising their deviant nature.

  214. Clotpoll says:

    Vodka (214)-

    Dukes of Hazzard would represent an upgrade to my family tree.

  215. Clotpoll says:

    Vodka (214)-

    “By the way, one side of my family was one of the first white settlers in western TN, yes that is a very scary thing”

    Chances are, some of my family was waiting there, ready to steal your family’s horses.

  216. Hobocondo says:

    211. BIGwindow…maybe I’m just clueless…kids whose parents were footing the bill would party because they weren’t paying their own way?

    Most people I knew who were being supported by their parents felt even more compelled to do well, because they felt they owed it to their parents. There were a few who had Mom and/or Dad was lurking in the background, making sure their hard-earned money wasn’t being blown.

    People had fun AND they worked hard. But then again, I was raised in a blue collar town…maybe that’s it.

  217. grim says:

    Does this guy belong to either of you:

    Man falls from moving car on I-295 in N.J.

    A morning news report said the man may have been attempting to stand on a moving car.

  218. njpatient says:

    179 ben

    I have been saying the same thing today. I am drawing a distinction between grad and undergrad, and further, between types of grad programs (as highlighted by Still Looking).

    If you can pay an extra $20K in tuition to make an extra $100K per year, obviously the tuition is worth it. It is my (now restated for the fifth time today) humble opinion that this is rarely the case with undergrad education, which I view as grossly overpriced, and more often the case with graduate education (thinking mostly of law school here, since I can vouch for the truth of the statement).

  219. Tom says:

    “chicagofinance Says:
    Tom: I like this…I don’t agree with your conclusions entirely though, but a great read and nothing figuratively inaccurate from my perspective……one of the better posts around here for several weeks methinks…”

    Good one! ok fess up who really wrote that?

    :)

  220. kettle1 says:

    I have no problem with religion and spirituality, whatever flavor you choose to favor (Pastafarian myself, looking forward to the beer volcanoes and stripper factory that awaits). My problem is with organized religion. Most organized religions that i have come into contact with have morphed into nothing more then a bloated bureaucracy that goes by a different name. When you need/have a a large bureaucratic organization telling you how to properly believe/worship your particular deity, that is where a problem arises.

  221. kettle1 says:

    “People seem to think the government has money,” said former U.S. Comptroller General David Walker. “The government doesn’t have any money.”

    “The factors that contributed to our mortgage-based subprime crisis exist with regard to our federal government’s finances,” said Walker, now head of the Peter G. Peterson Foundation, a group established to raise alarms about the nation’s budget. “The difference is that the magnitude of the federal government’s financial situation is at least 25 times greater.”

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/17/MN8Q11OT2M.DTL

  222. kettle1 says:

    clott,

    so are you still bitter that my family ran yours off their land? no hard feelings, right? my family apparently just had more guns

  223. njpatient says:

    209 clot

    What about nucking futs?

  224. kettle1 says:

    From FT

    UBS pledges to crack down on Swiss bank accounts

    By Joanna Chung in New York and James Politi in,Washington

    Published: July 18 2008 03:00 | Last updated: July 18 2008 03:00

    UBS, the world’s leading wealth manager, will no longer let US residents put money in Swiss bank accounts beyond the reach of US regulators, a senior bank executive has told a Senate subcommittee investigating tax haven abuses.
    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a33a5d82-545f-11dd-aa78-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1

    Uh-oh, uncle sam getting nervous about high net worth individuals fleeing financially? (not that they arent already)

  225. John says:

    If you two are from the south you already know you are related.

  226. NJLifer says:

    DL – 101…

    The International Monetary Fund has to justify making rediculous loans to countries they know will never pay them back. The old ‘under my thumb’ trick used by industrial nations.

  227. skep-tic says:

    “That their parents know how to save? That they value education?”

    I’m sure Hobocondo didn’t mean it this way, but I will never forget the classmate during my freshman year who complained that people on financial aid didn’t belong there because their parents obviously didn’t value education enough to save money

  228. still_looking says:

    John

    “Doctors are boring. Then again, going to keg parties and medical school does not mix anyhow.”

    Um…. how many do you know? As an ER doc I know a lot of docs…. most of them are way far from “boring”

    …we had plenty of keg parties…and shitloads of fun.

    You.Would.Never.Ever.Even.Get.CLOSE.To.Knowing.What.I.Know.About.Docs.

    ;-)

    sl

  229. John says:

    I am a flexitarin. As the leader I am capable of making infailable statements, you may join my religion for only 9% of your salary, 1% less than the rest.

  230. still_looking says:

    Regarding religion.

    After reading the basics of B’hai…

    It sounds good to me.

    sl

  231. skep-tic says:

    I am very impressed by people who go through the process of becoming doctors today. they are not doing it for financial reasons

  232. All Hype says:

    UBS pledges to crack down on Swiss bank accounts:
    _________________________________________________

    But, but, but what are the rich going to do now? How are they going to hide, errr, I mean distribute their wealth? How will they afford all those big expensive boats and houses in the Hamptons? You mean the gubbmint might actually make them pay taxes? That is a real travesty.

    Sarcasm off\

  233. NJLifer says:

    231- John,

    I will sue you to be able to display your prior converts online, and charge only 2%.

    YourMinistryDirect.com

    :)

  234. skep-tic says:

    #201

    I know a few doctors who drink heavily and smoke. always strikes me as very strange

  235. kettle1 says:

    john,

    I am only 50% redneck. the other 50% came through elis island from sweden in 1916 and lived in brooklyn and catskill

  236. Tom says:

    skep-tic,

    “I am very impressed by people who go through the process of becoming doctors today. they are not doing it for financial reasons”

    I wonder if it’s like house buyers in the 2005-2007 years. They’re doing it for financial reasons, they just don’t realize what’s going on? :)

  237. kettle1 says:

    all hype,

    that is what the cayman islands is for ;)

  238. All Hype says:

    that is what the cayman islands is for ;)

    I was guessing Singapore and the U.A.E.

  239. John says:

    Hey when I went to SB their were some cool pre-med guys who would whip out a prescription pad for a good lude party and swipe a slong from a cadevior for under someone’s pillow. But near the end it was all asian guys and gals who just studied 24 hours a day. But man those old school doctors could party.

  240. skep-tic says:

    I take a pretty cynical view on higher education. Very few people learn anything really useful by going to college; the top universities mostly serve, in my opinion, to perpetuate wealth among a certain segment of the population.

    I have a young child and am do not want him to turn into a sh*thead when he is older. My wife and I grew up in quite different circumstances than he enjoys.

    At the same time, I also understand that life is not really fair and that it is sort of senseless to pretend that it is. There are thousands of people out there who will pull every lever at their disposal in favor of their kids and very few people are going to congratulate you or reward you for choosing not to do the same. So while I theoretically wish things were different, I think I will position my son to compete in the world as it is to the best of my ability.

  241. NNJJEFF says:

    Rich #213,

    yes, it’s an englewood condo. Thanks for looking up.

  242. Pat says:

    My kid’s gonna scam the pants off of all of your kids, anyways. So there.

    Next.

  243. make money says:

    makemoney,

    “He wanted 40K for the surgery, I negotiated down to 32K in cash. (worth every penny)”

    You coulda gotten him down to about 10k. Hell, medicare would give him about 5k. If you offered him 5k in cash, in a bag, he’d probably do it.

    Ben you’re missing my point. This surgeon performs surgeries on NY Mets, Yankees, Islanders, Devils, etc I’ve seen pictures and thank you notes from many professional athletes and Wayne Chrebet was in the waiting area when I visited. So medicaid does not set comps of what he charges.

    When you’re good at what you do you you can charge a premium. He made one year of his med school with me knee.

    I wish I can pay my annual mortgage bill with one months rent.

  244. schabadoo says:

    Hey, I give these MD’s credit, not an easy thing, but for the average Joe getting a Communications degree there is no need to pack on all that debt while drinking themself silly.

    Your need to equate getting loans in order to attend school and drinking is so odd.

    It seems to be a trend with your recent posts.

  245. chicagofinance says:

    skep-tic Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 2:05 pm
    I take a pretty cynical view on higher education. Very few people learn anything really useful by going to college; the top universities mostly serve, in my opinion, to perpetuate wealth among a certain segment of the population.

    skep: wow do I have a problem with this comment! Cornell & Chicago grad……

  246. chicagofinance says:

    E is for Eamus Metropoli (“Let’s Go Mets” in Latin) and all the banners that were paraded through the Polo Grounds, and then Shea Stadium, in the 60’s and 70’s during the fan favorite activity proudly known as “Banner Day”

  247. chicagofinance says:

    Nom Deplume Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 12:29 pm
    [173] Grim I preferred Smith and Mt. Holyoke. Great parties and a target-rich environment.

    nom: The odds are good, but the goods are odd…..or not interested….

  248. ben says:

    “I take a pretty cynical view on higher education. Very few people learn anything really useful by going to college; the top universities mostly serve, in my opinion, to perpetuate wealth among a certain segment of the population.”

    I’m in a PhD program right now. I’ll agree that you don’t learn much in higher education. Everything you learn is self taught. But the fact is, we give a lot of people who are incredibly stupid PhDs for doing no work at all. And it has nothing to do with class status. Universities are happy to bring in female and minority students (poor or not) that have substandard academic performances and churn them through a facade of a PhD or MS program. (Note: don’t take this the wrong way, we have plenty of great female and minority students at my schools). It allows them to get more federal funding, cook the books on their graduation rates, and advertise how they are increasing diversity in the sciences. In the end, the taxpayers and the people who hire these students are the ones that end up paying.

  249. chicagofinance says:

    John Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 1:04 pm
    Doctors are boring. In my HS in Great Neck the nerds studied night and day for four years of HS, Four Years college, Four years of Medical school and then another four years of residency. They did not get to see any tail until they were 30 with a receeding hairline. Funny part the hot jewish girls in my HS, all dated jocks partied like crazy with the good looking guys and they gave it up around 27 and married one of the 30 year old doctors and then a few years later divorced them after they finished student loans and took them to the cleaners. Seeing that happen again and again was funny. Then again, going to keg parties and medical school does not mix anyhow.

    JJ: As sad as it is to say, you are exactly correct. The only caveats are that you should add the word “shaygitz” in from of jocks, and substitute “menches” for nerds…….I have examples from my own family….

  250. chicagofinance says:

    front NOT from

  251. Pat says:

    What happened to the not-so-hot-looking Jewish girls?

    What happened to the hottie Jewish guys?

  252. Nom Deplume says:

    [249] ChiFi

    yeah, a bit odd, but fun. And interested.

  253. 3b says:

    #189/190 tbw: thanks for the information. It looks like they did a large renovation recently, and now it is for sale.

    Interestin., Oh and they are not going to get anywhere near that price.

  254. Nom Deplume says:

    [235] All Hype,

    “But, but, but what are the rich going to do now? How are they going to hide, errr, I mean distribute their wealth?”

    Send them my way.

  255. Nom Deplume says:

    [227] kettle

    Last month, the Dems pushed, and Bush signed, a new exit tax. So, yes, they are quite worried.

    As an aside, when Sir John Templeton died a couple of weeks ago, most news accounts neglected to mention that this British subject (knighted no less) was an american expat, who left the U.S. for Bermuda to avoid taxes.

  256. 3b says:

    #214 Rich: Thanks for the information. Looks like maybe they cannot afford it any more after sucking so much equity out of it.

    $300,000 9/2/2003 ABN AMRO MTG GRP INC
    $80,000 4/26/2005 PNC BK NATIONAL ASSN
    $300,000 3/21/2008 CITIMORTGAGE

    It is amazing how many times they refinanced, I am assuming that the last 2 for 300K was to take advantage of a lower interest rate.

    But in the end they still have a 300K equity loan, and probably a big chunk left on the original mtg.

    I am reading that right in your opinion.

  257. Nom Deplume says:

    [220] grim

    “A morning news report said the man may have been attempting to stand on a moving car.”

    Did he buy the farm? If so, I nominate him for this year’s Darwin Award.

  258. painhrtz says:

    Kettle1 pastafarian, I knew there was something I liked about you. I subscribe to the IPU myself manly due to the FSM becoming too mainstream. As far as education goes I did a mix of everything community collge/ state school with grants and loans. Graduate school at a private university which was really painful to pay back, but I have doubled my salary since I received the sheepskin 2003 so I guess it helped.

  259. Nom Deplume says:

    [180] and [185]

    Same here, but tequila for me. And dirty martinis ever since my bachelor party (for months, I couldn’t handle the smell of green olives).

  260. John says:

    Bat Miz money made all the girls hot except for that fat chubby one from my HS who went to star in Polyster.

    Pat Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 2:34 pm
    Q What happened to the not-so-hot-looking Jewish girls?
    A Bat Miz money made all the girls hot except for that fat chubby one from my HS who went to star in Polyster.

    Q What happened to the hottie Jewish guys?
    A They are listed in an even shorter book than that book the stewardess gave out in the movie Airplan.

  261. Nom Deplume says:

    [205] Grim pleads the fifth.

    The statutes of limitations haven’t run on Grim yet. I can skate however on everything but capital murder.

    From what I remember, we were better dressed at 7 sisters parties, and obscene drunkeness was not going to get you laid. Found out very late that being a senior and telling the ladies that you planned to attend law or medical school was usually a winning pickup line.

  262. John says:

    The heck with education, I believe in game theory. While the eggheads are working on theory dis OG playa from the hood is playing the game and smacking down some big time c-notes.

  263. John says:

    “With four of the five major U.S. banks now reporting better-than-expected earnings, it looks like the financial meltdown will have to wait for another day,” said Andrew Brenner, co-head of structured products and emerging markets at MF Global, in an e-mail.

  264. NYtoNJ09 says:

    I agree with NJP that for certain careers you need to go to certain schools to get the best op for work.

    I went to Manhattan College my first semester of college. I got 50% of tuition covered by financial aid. At that time it was about 4500 a semester. After my first semester there I decided I did not want to burden my parents with the 50% for all 4 years and transferred to City College. I had full financial aid there and even had enough left over to cover my books. Granted my field of choice does not require a “better” school to make good money. Which definitely played into my decisions even when I applied to Manhattan College.

  265. kettle1 says:

    john 267,

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  266. kettle1 says:

    has a property tax cap ever been proposed in NJ? If any place needs that, its NJ

  267. 3b says:

    #267 What is his point? Better than expected, but still dismal. I just love these guys!!

  268. PGC says:

    Todays, quote of the day.

    “I’m going to put together a meeting, after this meeting, to discuss what we talked about here”

    I need to find a wall to beat my head off.

  269. Rich In NNJ says:

    NNJJEFF (224),

    I show it as still active. There is no listing history for this unit the way they listed it. But I did find the following withdrawn listing.

    ACT 2 MARKHAM CIR $377,000 7/9/2007
    PCH 2 MARKHAM CIR $353,000 8/14/2007
    W-C 2 MARKHAM CIR $353,000 11/5/2007

    From the tax records:
    CORPDeed $252,500 11/18/2002
    Mortgage $202,000 11/18/2002 FIRST INTERSTATE FIN’L
    Mortgage $259,000 9/28/2006 LSI MTG PLUS
    Current (07) Year Taxes: $6,949.68

  270. Tom says:

    It’s always been my belief that what you’re supposed to learn in school is how to learn. Unless you’re working on advanced degrees and doing research with some of the tops in the field, what you’re learning is going to basic knowledge. You’re going to learn the most when you are actually doing what you’re doing in the real world. The AMA seems to have it right standardizing somewhat the requirement for on the job training.

    There are very few “textbook examples” in the real world and you need to use what you learned to figure out how to go forward.

    In my book, people fall into two general categories, those that understand what they’re doing and can learn and those that can follow a set of instructions and not really know what their doing.

    The first group is hard to find but they stand out. Most companies employ more of the latter. Among that group though there are different levels. You can usually sort them out whenever there’s a kink in the standard procedural chain. Some people will just proceed along as if they didn’t hit a bump in the road. Some of these people are perceived as being productive, usually because their errors don’t get caught for some time similar people compounded the error so it’s hard to lay blame.

    Then there are those that see a problem and just get stuck and try to get someone else to solve their problem. Some people confuse this group with the next group but they are worlds apart. The reason for the confusion is they appear to know what they’re doing because they notice the problem. The problem is their after the 10 or so times they defer to someone more knowledgeable you would have thought they’d be able to start figuring it out themselves. They usually don’t, all they do is now ad one knew if statement in their instructions and if they run across the same exact problem, can now handle it.

    The group to spot are the ones that use their intellect to navigate the obstacles on their own. They may and should ask those with more experience when they don’t know but you’ll notice that instead of sending a quick email like “I’m going to have to defer to your brilliance here” and not ask or understand the problem or solution, they’ll want to know how the problem was solved and not just what the solution was. These are the people that you should try and spot and keep happy.

    I haven’t seen anything to sway me into believing that the level of location of education makes anyone more apt to be in one group or another. There was an article on slashdot a few years ago about a UK study on how incompetent people don’t realize their incompetent. For some of these people I believed that what they had hanging on their walls also helped keep them in the dark.

    I remember a few years ago when I was interviewing someone for a position, maybe I didn’t know much at the time but I didn’t really pay attention to his schools and degrees that he kept talking about. I was more interested in what he did after that and asked about some of the projects listed on his resume. Knew all the right buzzwords and generally applied them in the right context. The use of buzzwords was my sign to dig deeper. Turns out the last project didn’t get completed because they were waiting on a vendor who was waiting on a standards body to define a specification.

    Basically, he was waiting on someone to build an octagonal peg to fit in his octagonal hole and didn’t recognize that how the hole was filled was inconsequential to the overall project and there were a number of standard ways to fill it.

    I remember a book I was given during one of my early internships. It had sections on TQM and Kaizen and I thought to myself. “You have to teach people this?”

    This goes back to the discussion with (i’m pretty sure it was) Clotpoll on the lack of critical thinkers in America. I don’t know if this can be taught but if it can it should. More people are the follow instruction types, few are the think for yourselves types. If we can’t keep the types of jobs that benefit from having the follow instruction crowd in our country, we’re going to have a lot of problems keeping people employed.

    I’m not trying to knock the follow instruction types. We need all kinds and for many a job is just a means to an end and I respect that.

  271. spam spam bacon spam says:

    261: I think for the Darwin Awards, you need to be dead.

    This guy, it seems, escaped… and just think!…he lives so now he can spawn his own little auto surfers, spreading his genetic wisdom into the gene pool…

  272. John says:

    The Peter Principle is the principle that “In a Hierarchy Every Employee Tends to Rise to His Level of Incompetence.” Dr. Laurence J. Peter and Raymond Hull in their 1968 book also introduced the “salutary science of Hierarchiology”, “inadvertently founded” by Peter, the principle has real validity. It holds that in a hierarchy, members are promoted so long as they work competently. Sooner or later they are promoted to a position at which they are no longer competent (their “level of incompetence”), and there they remain. Peter’s Corollary states that “in time, every post tends to be occupied by an employee who is incompetent to carry out his duties” and adds that “work is accomplished by those employees who have not yet reached their level of incompetence”.

    The Peter Principle is a special case of a ubiquitous observation: anything that works will be used in progressively more challenging applications until it fails. This is “The Generalized Peter Principle.” It was observed by Dr. William R. Corcoran in his work on Corrective Action Programs at nuclear power plants. He observed it applied to hardware, e.g., vacuum cleaners as aspirators, and administrative devices such as the “Safety Evaluations” used for managing change. There is much temptation to use what has worked before, even when it may exceed its effective scope. Dr. Peter observed this about humans.

    In an organizational structure, the Peter Principle’s practical application allows assessment of the potential of an employee for a promotion based on performance in the current job, i.e. members of a hierarchical organization eventually are promoted to their highest level of competence, after which further promotion raises them to incompetence. That level is the employee’s “level of incompetence” where the employee has no chance of further promotion, thus reaching his or her career’s ceiling in an organization.

    The employee’s incompetence is not necessarily exposed as a result of the higher-ranking position being more difficult — simply, that job is different from the job in which the employee previously excelled, and thus requires different work skills, which the employee usually does not possess. For example, a factory worker’s excellence in his job can earn him promotion to manager, at which point the skills that earned him his promotion no longer apply to his job.

  273. RayC says:

    Comp Killer Westfield

    42 Unami Terrace, Westfield NJ 07090
    Sold for $501,000 on Jun 24th, 2008

    I can’t remember what it first listed for, but it was over $600K. according to NJdotCOM by the numbers, its taxable value is $800K. (I have no idea how they derive that taxable value #, but it often corresponds to an asking price, as opposed to assessed value.)

  274. Tom says:

    John,

    Funny, I was thinking about something similar when I was writing my post. I’m wondering if times have changed because it has not been uncommon in my observation to see people rise above their level of incompetence. The general thinking, by those above them that are at or above their level of incompetence, seems to be well it’s just not a good fit so lets move them up a notch.

  275. Ben says:

    the idea of someone not rising because of incompetence has gone bye bye in America. Because we’ve been hellbent on avoiding recessions, we allow people to fail upwards to the point that they become CEOs of giant companies like Bear Stearns.

  276. Tom says:

    Anyone else getting the feeling that in the last 15 years or more people just keep thinking “The higher the risk, the higher the reward” and completely forgetting “The higher the risk, the higher the risk”?

  277. John says:

    Tom, I hope things have not changed as I am working hard at rising to the level above my incompetence

    Tom Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 3:48 pm
    John,

    Funny, I was thinking about something similar when I was writing my post. I’m wondering if times have changed because it has not been uncommon in my observation to see people rise above their level of incompetence. The general thinking, by those above them that are at or above their level of incompetence, seems to be well it’s just not a good fit so lets move them up a notch.

  278. Young Buck says:

    277. RayC Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 3:45 pm
    Comp Killer Westfield

    42 Unami Terrace, Westfield NJ 07090
    Sold for $501,000 on Jun 24th, 2008

    I can’t remember what it first listed for, but it was over $600K. according to NJdotCOM by the numbers, its taxable value is $800K. (I have no idea how they derive that taxable value #, but it often corresponds to an asking price, as opposed to assessed value.)

    X 08/18/07 OLP 650,000 LP 599,900 DOM 108

    S 01/07/08 OLP 599,900 LP 549,000
    UC 05/07/08 SD 05/28/08 SP 501,000 DOM 121

  279. chicagofinance says:

    Tom Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 3:23 pm
    I haven’t seen anything to sway me into believing that the level of location of education makes anyone more apt to be in one group or another.

    Tom: I tend to disagree, but I understand what you are saying. What you need is a clear understanding of the significance of the particular piece of paper. As an example, there is a huge variance at Cornell based on school and major. There a boatload of people that are smart, bust their humps, and are more than willing to take their lumps. However, there are methods to be a joker, smoker, and a midnight toker….you just have to know how to identify them. It appears you have the tools to do so in your own discipline.

    I don’t want to harsh on a series of name-brand schools that are not worth their cost in this environment, but put it this way. If you go to a school and it is expensive enough to put you at more than $60,000 in the hole in loans after undergrad, and they don’t have the endowment to knock that down to a more reasonable number….then the school is a piece of %^$&. If the parents pay (close to) full freight – fine. That includes A LOT of schools.

    Sorry folks.

  280. chicagofinance says:

    Tom Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 3:23 pm
    This goes back to the discussion with (i’m pretty sure it was) Clotpoll on the lack of critical thinkers in America. I don’t know if this can be taught but if it can it should. More people are the follow instruction types, few are the think for yourselves types. If we can’t keep the types of jobs that benefit from having the follow instruction crowd in our country, we’re going to have a lot of problems keeping people employed.

    Tom: I think a nice stinky recession replete with some myth-shattering realities will clean enough clocks……

  281. sas says:

    ha… Ivy League..

    I see Ivy League on a resume, it goes in the trash (unless Tuck, just to make sure its not a student of a professor I know).

    Ivy League can’t think outside of the box & are not diplomatic. Two essentials in our trade.

    Just my experience..

    but what do I know ;)

    SAS

  282. NNJJEFF says:

    #273

    Rich (or anyone with MLS access)

    Can I bother you again with listing history of NJMLS #2816134 . It seems like its been recently gone back to the bank

    Thanks in advance

  283. John says:

    http://good-times.webshots.com/album/548801002dTSLYF

    Nuff about school, here are some vintage Ed’s Bay Pub shots featuring Malony Man doing the sunday night watermellon smash

    If you went to the hampton bays anytime from the 1970s to 1990s this will bring back some good memories

  284. Nicholas says:

    How many 25 – 30 year olds living in NJ at this very moment in time:

    -Do not have CC debt
    -Do not have student loan debt
    -Own their own house (that they can afford)
    -Donate time and money to charities/non profit orgs/their communities
    -Go to church

    I don’t live in NJ but…

    I am thirty years old
    I don’t have CC debt
    I do not have Student Loan debt
    Own my own house with managable payments
    I donate my time to Habitate for Humanity and other charitable organizations
    I do not go to church

    I have a master’s degree in Electrical Engineering and only accrued 13,000$ in debt during my school years. My contemporaries racked up 35,000-40,000$ in debt. I received nothing from my parents to assist me while in college.

    I just recently “got back to zero” meaning that my assets now outweigh my liabilities.

    I obtained my BSEE in 2003 MSEE in 2006. I worked only during the summers and lived in near poverty during the school year. The Clinton era was great for student loan debt because you could score a 3% interest rate very easily. Nowadays you pull 6.5-7.2% if your lucky. Most lenders are now pricing in the true risk for these loans.

    The low interest rates for student loans as well as HELOCs created an education bubble, expect to see many colleges have problems with finances. I would recommend that you wait on an education at this time because tuition rates should come down. There were just too many students with access to “cheap” money through those low interest rate student loans as well as parents who went around HELOC’ing their homes to send their kids to school.

    The real price of education is now evident, 20k a year x 4 years on a loan with 6.5% interest equals everlasing pain. Instead of 3% a year with inflation making you richer the longer you don’t pay it you get a 400-800$ a month sandbag to carry around during the formative years of your household.

    No thanks…

  285. RayC says:

    Thanks for the info Young Buck.

  286. John says:

    What do you do with a masters degree in electrical engineering? Just curious?

  287. sas says:

    Here is a partial reason why the general public are morons. All the more reason for alternative media outlets and blogs, such as this one: NJ Bubble Blog

    “The Changing Newsroom: Gains and Losses in Today’s Papers”
    http://tinyurl.com/5rx9bm

    SAS

  288. chicagofinance says:

    No people, no like, no AAPL….

  289. Nicholas says:

    @127 chicagofinance,

    I’m revealing a bit of over-zealous upbringing but I recall that somewhere in the bible that it mentions that you should tithe 10+10+10 to receive the true benefit.

    As an example your client would tithe his 120,000$ income as follows:

    12,000$
    10,800$
    09,720$
    ——-
    32,520$

    My mother tithes like this to her church. I tithe zero in order to compensate :)

  290. Orion says:

    (73) I guess I win my shorts back.

    The answer to FOM is: “Friends of Mozillo”.

    Story on CNBC this morning about politicians and a judge getting very “special” mortgage rates by being a FOM. The whistleblower of the story (forgot his name) worked directly under Mozillo and stated that “junk fees” were waived (points, doc fees, etc.)
    He actually called it that. Nice that so many homebuyers have paid a s*itload of junk fees over the last several years.

  291. chicagofinance says:

    John Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 4:28 pm
    What do you do with a masters degree in electrical engineering? Just curious?

    JJ: Can’t spell GEEK without EE!

    Actually, you get a job in quant finance…

  292. priced-out-in-2008 says:

    Re: conversations regarding student loans, graduate school, and home buying (see, e.g., comments 15,18,25,38,56,103)

    This is my first time posting a message on this (or any) site. I visit this site every day – it’s excellent.

    Njpatient is absolutely right about law school school debt and the labor market for legal services. I, like my classmates, have learned the hard way that which law school you attend largely determines your entire career path, and state schools simply do not offer the same opportunities as their private counterparts.

    And there is definitely a graduate-school- tuition bubble. According to my alma mater’s wedsite, student borrowing power has increased to over $20,000/year in federal stafford loans. This means that $20,000 has (or will soon) become the baseline tuition for most private graduate schools, regardless of salaries offered upon graduatiom. Since, as noted above, going to a public school often closes off more job opportunities than it opens, an aspiring attorney without “family money” must take on large amounts of debt in the hopes of getting a good return on his/her investment in later years (tuition-to-salary ratio). Unfortunately, many of us made our calculation right before the tech bubble burst in 2000, and the bet we made went bad as the market dropped.

    The legal services labor market is certainly not factoring in the costs of education (I doubt consumers of legal services would countenance such an increase). The fact that many people attending law school are fortunate enough to have family money to mitigate post-graduate debt also weakens any upward pressure that rising tuition costs might have on wages.

    As for housing, forget it. My wife and I put ourselves through undergrad/graduate school and owe around $300k in student loan debt. That is a mortgage without a house. Thus, despite excellent credit, we have almost no borrowing power to get us into a decent school district for our children. We have resigned ourselves to saving up for the next five years in the hopes that our incomes and home prices will eventually converge.

  293. 3b says:

    #284 chgo; Thinking for yourself, gets you in trouble. That is why we need outlets like this.

    If you did not follow the group think, you were considered a freak.
    Until now, when no matter how much it kills them they have to admit the freaks were right.

  294. chicagofinance says:

    Nicholas Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 4:45 pm
    @127 chicagofinance,

    ay!

  295. Orion says:

    re: Richard Bove

    I think it was Frank who had linked the report by Richard Bove, titled “Who is Next?” (btw, good read). Today we get this:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aKq4yHbl1Ejk&refer=home

  296. lostinny says:

    3B
    I embrace my freakiness. Unfortunately, it makes it very difficult working in a very conservative environment. It also made it very difficult attending an “Ivy League” school. But hey, at least I’ve been able to stay in NYC.

  297. John says:

    quant fin rocks.

    in regards to debt the secret is to marry someone with out debt.

    I would tithe but like most married men their is nothing left over after the IRS, SS, Medicare, wife and kids maul the paycheck. But if they want 10% of my lunch money they are welcome to it.

  298. chicagofinance says:

    The school cost issue has many causes, but the primary ones seem to be the depth of student loans sources and the size of Gen Y. Ultimately, no matter how much prices are increased, there are a finite number of slots. Armed users with unlimited buying power, creates a situation ripe to be oversubscribed, hence strong pricing power….eventually this situation will reverse….but not anytime soon.

  299. Mike NJ says:

    My MBA student loan debt just got smacked down to 1.62% after three years of on time payments. Thanks Citibank!

    I agree that some schools are just not worth the paper the diplomas are printed on for the $$.

    After it is all said and done people pay up for big name schools for one reason – possibilities. The better the reputation of a school, the more doors that are open to you. Yes this world is a fickle b*tch as we all know and some doors are just never opened for the wrong type of applicant. That is just the nature of the beast. A kid that goes to the Harvard/MIT/Princetons of the world will have a full range of choices post graduation. The lesser the school the lesser the range of choices, IN GENERAL of course.

  300. John says:

    Germany levies a church tax, on all persons declaring themselves to be Christians, of roughly 8-9% of the income tax, which is effectively (very much depending on the social and financial situation) typically between 0.2% and 1.5% of the total income. The proceeds are shared amongst Catholic, Lutheran, and other Protestant Churches. In 1933 Hitler had the entry “church tax” added to the official tax card, which meant that the tax could now be deducted by the employer like any of the other taxes.

    Some believe that the church taxation system was established or started through the Concordat of 1933 signed between the Holy See and the Third Reich. This is a simple misunderstanding or misrepresentation of §13 of the Appendix (The Supplementary Protocol) of the Concordat (Schlußprotokoll, §13). The article reads: „Es besteht Einverständnis darüber, daß das Recht der Kirche, Steuern zu erheben, gewährleistet bleibt.“, (refer to External Links). In English, this translates to: It is understood that the Church retains the right to levy Church taxes, (refer to External Links). Notice that §13 states that the Church “retains the right” or, in German, “gewährleistet bleibt”. The church tax (Kirchensteuer) actually traces its roots back as far as the Reichsdeputationshauptschluss of 1803. Today its legal basis is §140 of the Grundgesetz (the German “constitution”) in connection with article 137 of the Weimar constitution.

    Church tax (Kirchensteuer) is compulsory in Germany for those confessing members of a particular religious group. It is deducted at the PAYE level. The duty to pay this tax theoretically starts on the day one is christened. Anyone who wants to stop paying it has to declare in writing, at their local court of law (Amtsgericht) or registry office, that they are leaving the Church. They are then crossed off the Church registers and can no longer receive the sacraments.

  301. Tom says:

    chifi,

    I generally agree, I think a good school can help you get your foot in the door by means of an interview, once there you have to make sure you don’t put your foot in your mouth. If you get the job you have to show you know what you’re doing or you could get the boot.

    In case you’re wondering, I do NOT have a foot fetish. :)

  302. Shore Guy says:

    Speaking of Ed’s Bay Pub, just what is this lad attempting to do to/with this mellon?

    http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2311381530031355211SFzPDO

  303. Tom says:

    I’m glad I didn’t know what a tithe was and had to look it up.

  304. Cindy says:

    (Tom) 274

    I AGREE with you! College is where you “learn how to learn.” Many also learn how to survive on their own and how to meet another’s expectations ( the professor’s -if they want an A.)

    I had to look up TQM and KAISEN – But the point I am going to make is I DID look them up. We have to all be life-long learners – That’s what I teach my kids…

  305. Cindy says:

    (309) How bizarre that you posted that you looked something up while I was looking something up – You life-long learner you…

  306. Shore Guy says:

    # 279

    Ben,

    And president, too.

  307. Shore Guy says:

    as in, of the USA

  308. Nom Deplume says:

    [275] spam

    You do have to die for a Darwin Award, which is why I asked if he bought the farm (which, I admit, may have a different meaning for you).

    So he survived. Darn. At least he gets an honorable mention. One can only hope that there is a way to keep this surfer dude from spawning, but I guess not.

  309. willwork4beer says:

    310/311 Cindy

    I find myself needing to look things up if I don’t know what they are. I think my parents instilled this in me. Many questions were met with “why don’t you go look that up”. I did, and in the process, learned how to learn.

    PS. When I was working on my professional diploma, the professors told us that the most important thing we could learn there was how to learn.

  310. Cindy says:

    (316) willwork4beer

    “Many questions were met with “why don’t you go look that up.”

    Tell your parents next time you see them that a teacher said “Good job!” I wish all parents did that.

    I make my second graders look up everything. I like it when they want to add “chihuahua” or “buffet” to a story. Those are the teachable moments.

  311. Cindy says:

    (318) I use a horrible French accent and say
    buffet, ballet, valet, bouquet…the kids always laugh – but maybe they will remember how to spell them.

  312. willwork4beer says:

    Cindy,

    Your second graders write stories about Warren Buffet? Wow… you’re good.

    hehehehe… :)

  313. Nicholas says:

    @john,

    Electrical Engineers mostly fall into one of four major disciplines.

    1. Power Engineers – These guys manage and monitor power and power distribution. They would draw up the designs for Electricians to implement and Master Electricians to certify.

    2. Microelectronics Engineers – These guys design and fabricate microelectronic chips. They essentiall run the world when it comes to computer platforms.

    3. Radio Frequency Engineers – These guys design and build RF gear for communications systems. A mix of power systems, power amplifiers, and electromagnetics. Cellular phone systems fall into this category.

    4. Communication Engineers – These guy design and build communication systems. The designs are normally independent of the platform so as to not include RF disciplines. Baseband and Bit level modulation techniques.

    As for whether I went to school to “learn to learn” is still a subject of debate. I am of the Communication Engineer variety and I can say that I would have been at a knowledge disadvantage without my Undergrad studies. The Engineering disciplines are just too knowledge heavy to be adequately skipped.

    I learned how to open a book and find the answers that I was seeking and continue to use that skill often but without the background knowledge taught in the school I wouldn’t be able to interpret the information I was reading from the book.

  314. Cindy says:

    (321) Nicholas

    “I learned how to open a book and find the answers that I was seeking and continue to use that skill often but without the background knowledge taught in the school I wouldn’t be able to interpret the information I was reading from the book.”

    So true…As mentioned before, some disciplines require specific learning. I’m glad my doctor paid attention in class too.

    I have a very close friend (electical engineer) who owns his own firm here in town and does plans for malls, schools, hospitals etc. He makes a nice living.

  315. willwork4beer says:

    321 Nicholas

    Agree completely, although I am in not in engineering, I’m in healthcare. If I didn’t have the underpinnings of math and science that I acquired as an undergrad, there is no way that I could understand the information that was presented at the next level.

    My previous learning allowed me to learn something which was much more complex. Knowing how to learn was very helpful in accomplishing this. Both times.

    All of this has reinforced my love of learning. Which might have been the best part… :)

  316. njpatient says:

    253 chi

    That may be the worst thing you’ve ever posted here.

  317. skep-tic says:

    #248

    skep-tic Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 2:05 pm
    I take a pretty cynical view on higher education. Very few people learn anything really useful by going to college; the top universities mostly serve, in my opinion, to perpetuate wealth among a certain segment of the population.

    skep: wow do I have a problem with this comment! Cornell & Chicago grad……

    *****

    On an individual level, I agree. However, in the aggregate, 90% of the students in these schools are from the upper decile of income. They are not, by and large, avenues of social mobility. That said, the perception among many is that the top of the top attends these schools without qualification. So as long as this perception persists, it would be foolish to deny your children the benefit of this should you/they have the means.

  318. victorian says:

    American Express Profit Falls on Higher Defaults

    “American Express Co., the biggest U.S. credit-card company by purchases, withdrew its 2008 earnings forecast after second-quarter profit fell 37 percent on worse-than-expected consumer defaults. ”

    Looks like the lenders of second-to-last resort have started feeling heat..

  319. still_looking says:

    324. njp

    I agree… glad you said it first, though. I admit, I’m disappointed

    The whole initial post that elicited chi’s response was pure, baseless drivel.

    Sad.

    From one who has been to medical school and knows scores and scores of awesome docs, it was a baseless attack.

    sl

  320. gryffindor says:

    On the comments about doctors and their futures in our country –

    I work in a large medical center and many of the young physicians in residency are stuck. They have large student loan repayments awaiting them so it makes it impossible to get out now and start over in another career. They will stick it out in medicine since once you are a practicing physician, you are still going to earn a sizable income. Maybe it will be less than their senior docs who had their heydey in medicine in the 70s and 80s.

    Many newbie US med school grads are now choosing to specialize in their careers and residencies because primary care doesn’t pay enough to pay back those med school loans from private schools. That leaves a huge gap to fill spots in the primary care residencies with US grads so these spots often go to foreign medical grads. On top of that, the nurse practitioners have came up with this new degree, “Doctor of Nurse Practitioner” (DNP) to try and get their foot in primary care shortage while giving themselves “doctor” titles with half of the education compared to an MD. The DNPs probably have an agenda to ultimately try to build a parallel education system to undercut and compete with MDs.

  321. Tom says:

    “Many newbie US med school grads are now choosing to specialize in their careers and residencies because primary care doesn’t pay enough to pay back those med school loans from private schools.”

    gryffindor,

    Doesn’t the AMA ultimately decide if you get into a specialty? I remember hearing a few doctors complain in the past of not getting into the field they wanted.

  322. Orion says:

    re: Loan Originators

    If this story wasn’t so dismaying, it would be deliciously funny.

    http://www.miamiherald.com/static/multimedia/news/mortgage/originators.html

  323. RPatrick says:

    328 gryff-

    I am in a masters NP program. And one of my professors does this great “who’s on first” version of “who is the doctor” Most of us think it’s BS as well.

    It’s confusing to the clients, if I wanted to be Doctor101X, I would have gone to medical school. Would have saved me doing so many sponge baths in school anyway :)

  324. Laughing all the way says:

    # Shore Guy Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 8:33 am

    From last evening:

    “Laughing all the way Says:
    July 20th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
    Shore -

    I asked this a few days ago, but what are your thoughts no a non-Jersey beach place? Perhaps you know of a beach town that may be up-and-coming?”

    This is the million-dollar question. Non-NJ beaches within an easy drive of Bucks really leaves one with NY, DE, and MD. NY is built up and no deals there to speak of. As for Maryland, I hate the MD shore — especially Ocean City, which is a major tacky dump that makes Seaside look like an old-money, button-down, pillar of class.

    As for DE, Rehobeth is nice, but I also do not care much for Bethany. One might find nice sopts in the far south of the MD shore (I do not know the area), but one is getting into a schlep to get there.

    There is a lot to be said for buying acerage on a lake within an hour of home and using it every weekend, then renting a beach house a couple times a year to get one’s beach fix.

    SG – Good analysis. I’m from the DC area, so I’m familiar with Ocean City, and yes, it’s kind of weak (extremely white trash, but nice as you get higher up in some places).

    Rehoboth is largely a gay town, and while there’s nothing wrong with that, I don’t think it’s the place for me.

    Dewey is AWESOME – if you’re 20. Heavy boozing, rowdy nights … good time. But not a place i’d buy a beach house.

    I actually LOVE a house a friend’s family has on Toms River. I raved about it on here last year after we spent July 4 at the house. It’s an older house, and out of our price range, but man, being on the water like that and only being a 20 min boat ride from the ocean is pretty awesome. We’re in no rush – and we’re hoping two friends can go in on it with us (dicey, i know, but they’re longtime friends).

  325. gryffindor says:

    I don’t live in NJ right now but I fit the 25 – 30 year old category:

    -Do not have CC debt – pay off my bill in full each month

    -Do not have student loan debt – I have <100K at <2.5% from a SUNY school which is a manageable amount in my field. Fellow newbies are graduating with 400K from fancy private schools which is stupid because they have the same exact job opportunties as me the state school grad in our profession. If I was out in the real world with my debt-free, scholarship-paid, worthless Bachelor’s degree from my relatively unknown undergrad (run by the Jesuits, there’s that relious theme), I would have 10% of the income potential I have now.

    -Own their own house (that they can afford) – Nope, currently renting, can’t afford anything yet. I have taken up a second job on the weekends to start saving and have some money ready for when the Great Bottom comes. I feel like Linus waiting for the Great Pumpkin.

    -Donate time and money to charities/non profit orgs/their communities – I used to donate a lot of time from 20 – 25. Now I have less time and donate smalls sums when people ask since I don’t have much money either.

    -Go to church – occasionally frequent our chosen house of worship.

    2/5 = 40%, I guess I failed this assesment.

  326. gryffindor says:

    Tom (329) – I am not an MD, but I am familiar with some of the issues because they affect so many of my friends. Yes, there is a cap to the number of residency spots in each field, but I think in the past more US docs pursued primary care fields leaving spots in specialties possibly available to foreign docs. Our Jesuit undergrad used to send a few students to Georgetown med school each year, an expensive private Jesuit school. I have heard from those grads that they don’t want to choose primary care because it’s not going to pay enough to repay Georgetown and have a lifestyle that was worth all of those years of having no life. The hospital where I work is affiliated with one of the highly ranked med schools in the US, and my friends there tell me it is looked down upon if you declare that you are going to pursue primary care. Even if you go into a primary care field, there are always fellowships you can do to further specialize yourself and stay away from the front lines of medicine.

  327. gryffindor says:

    RPatrick (331) – I mean no disrespect to the nurse practitioners, but I feel bad for the doctors who get stuck in the “who’s the doctor” routine. DNPs don’t do a residency, doctors lose their 20s to life-sucking residencies. Now you have a bunch of “doctors” (DNPs and MDs) walking around the hospital and of course the patient is going to be confused as to which one is more qualified to take care of them.

  328. Hobokenite says:

    From CR:

    http://www.haloscan.com/comments/calculatedrisk/804253664311923031/#524798

    “She’s unwilling to cut further, and her Corcoran agent says the mid-market is at a standstill. Why not cut further…”but that’s my profit”. And she lived here in 91 when apt. prices at every level crashed hard.
    A shrewder friend is bailing, her 2 bed, appraised at 1.4, is going to be listed for 990k. She wants out.”

  329. lostinny says:

    339 Hobokenite
    Greed can make people do amazingly stupid things.

  330. Hobokenite says:

    listinny,

    True. But the interesting thing about that remark in my opinion was that it is referring to NYC.

  331. lostinny says:

    341 Hobokenite
    I understand. But being that I live in NY and don’t partake in the drinking of that flavor Kool Aide, I’m just sitting back and waiting for the fireworks. You know, NY is known for its fireworks display. :)

  332. RPatrick says:

    338, We are on the same page. Most of us in the trenches think it is stupid as well. It really is a push by the BS+MS RN programs to make the degree more credits and thus more money for them.

    The other factor is degree creep in all these fields where the RN is the only one in the room with the Associates or BS and everyone else has at least a Masters.

    Occupational Therapy now needs a Dr.
    MD always was/is a Dr.
    Psychologist is a PsyD
    ect. ect.

  333. lostinny says:

    343 RPatrick
    Actually the more common psychologist is the PhD, the PsyD is less common. And there are similar happenings in the psychology field as there are in medicine as far as different degrees and licenses allowing clinical practice.

  334. Hobokenite says:

    lost,

    I think the fireworks will be starting shortly.

  335. Zack says:

    ATTN:

    Paulson to Bailout AAPL and AXP and he is blaming shortsellers for the shareprice.

  336. bairen says:

    Just looked up 3 bdrs in Bedminster. OBLITERATION!!!

    There are 3 brd Townhouses for 367k.

    How low can they go?

    Last housing bust townhouses dropped 40%. I think this time is going to be worse.

  337. Hobokenite says:

    bairen,

    Any idea what they were selling for @ peak?

  338. Clotpoll says:

    brokenite (345)-

    It won’t be fireworks.

    It’ll be straight to the Howitzer shells.

    Incoming!

  339. bairen says:

    Hobokenite. Not sure. Clot said they were down 20 to 25% already and there were lots of foreclosures and short sales.

    i know the townhouses in Basking Ridge non “The Hills” sedction are down about 20% since the Spring of 2007.

    I wonder if townhouses in the NJ burbs will drop 50% or more from the peak before this is over.

  340. Sybarite101 X says:

    RE The Hills 3 BDR.

    If you wait 10 minutes, I’ll post June 2005 average 3BD, vs. June 2008.

  341. Hobokenite says:

    clot,

    They are just shooting spotting rounds right now. They will start to fire for effect shortly.

  342. Clotpoll says:

    bairen (350)-

    The older condoshacks always take the biggest hit when things turn sour in NJ. They represent worn-out, homogeneous housing: easy-to-value, and oh, so crappy.

    I think 50% off the ’05 highs might be overbaking it a bit, though I could sure see 40%+ on the overshoot. At the end of the day, even the Bedminster side of the Hills has shown resilience in down markets, and that prime 78/287 location will possibly buffer it from the last 5-10% of the chainsaw massacre.

  343. Clotpoll says:

    Methinks SKF’s done going down. Wachovia’s about to fling a turd into the punch bowl.

  344. lostinny says:

    BTW since I’m so proud of my shooting ability, I’ll volunteer to join the defense. I even have pics.

  345. bairen says:

    I actually kind of like Bedminster. Poorer man’s Brigadoon?

    Last week I heard someone say Real Estate always goes up. I was thankful I wasn’t eating at the time since i might have choked or thrown up.

  346. Clotpoll says:

    (356)-

    “Last week I heard someone say Real Estate always goes up.”

    Next time you hear that one, send ‘em over to my office. I have a list I’d like to show them.

  347. bairen says:

    I emailed them links to this site and a few other bubble blogs. I was wondering where do people get their news from to not know about the bust?

  348. Clotpoll says:

    Wachovia really exited the wholesale side of the biz about five months ago, when they made a whole bunch of promises to their correspondents…then managed to break every single one of them.

    The only person we’ve ever tossed out of our office was Wachovia’s rep. He was such a flesh-eating bacteria, he made our secretary cry.

    The WaMu-Wachovia race to the bottom is on!

    Who needs naked short-selling? These guys are gonna get killed the old-fashioned way.

  349. Sybarite101 X says:

    Ok, so the analysis isn’t great. I had to expand the sales data to include all of 2005, becuase only 4 3-Bed condos closed during June. Even then, the total amount of data available isn’t huge. Anyway, here are the results.

    2005 3-Bedroom Condos/Townhouses Closing in 2005

    Average 503561.11
    Standard Deviation 63319.10
    Min 417600
    Max 625000
    n=18

    2008 3-Bedroom Condos/Townhouses Closing YTD
    Average 468833.17
    Standard Deviation 74275.69
    Min 362000
    Max 552500
    n=6

  350. gryffindor says:

    RPatrick (343) – the degree creep is probably all part of the “education bubble” discussed earlier today. The med school here just started offering the DNP degree as well. It’s silly because now they will be graduating 2 kinds of “doctors” but the university coffers will be richer by x number of DNP students * 40K per year.

  351. gryffindor says:

    correction to my above post – the nursing school is actually offering the DNP, but they will be treating the same patients seen by the MD students since it is all the same medical center.

  352. bairen says:

    # sybarite

    Thanks. Looks like roughly 15% drop so far.

  353. sas says:

    “MDs”

    another class of compatmentalized morons.
    an MD can take a standardize test well & follow protocols. ex. if its not A, than do B, C, D….If D, than do test x,y,z.

    I’d take a native American in the Black Hills of South Dakota smokin peyote over some American pharma brainwashed MD.

    man, it never ends.

    ;)
    SAS

  354. sas says:

    don’t even get me started w/ dentists.
    one of the biggest scams.

    SAS

  355. sas says:

    most…not all…

    so don’t give your “my..blah, blah, blah” story.

    :)
    SAS

  356. Clotpoll says:

    sas (364)-

    “I’d take a native American in the Black Hills of South Dakota smokin peyote over some American pharma brainwashed MD.”

    I’d just take the peyote.

  357. still_looking says:

    sas,

    to what do you attribute your distain for the medical field?

    just curious.

    sl

  358. victorian says:

    skf up to 144 in extended hours…
    190 visitors at Calculated Risk…

    smell blood tomorrow..

  359. sas says:

    Clot,

    for it to be legal, you have to be on the reservation, and engaged in a “religious” ceremony.

    When I’m in South Dakota, that is when I all of a sudden become “religious”.

    ye.
    SAS

  360. still_looking says:

    clot,

    after hrs trading up to 144 already :-)

    sl

  361. sas says:

    “to what do you attribute your distain for the medical field?”

    Its lack of common sense, and lack of emphasis on precention.

    The industry would rather have us fat & sick because those are the most profitable sheep.

    There is no money in prevention, healthy lifestyle, or death.

    sad but true.
    but, like I said most not all MDs.
    there are good MDs out there, just like RE agents. There good RE agents out there too. Contrary to popular belief on these boards.

    SAS

  362. sas says:

    “and lack of emphasis on precention”

    I mean prevention.

  363. sas says:

    also, there is a created shortage of MDs by the American Medical Association, in order to justify there high salaries.

    and you blokes blame the Mexicans for the cost of health care..

    ha ha ha.. oh man… ha ha..

    thats like saying *O*bam*a is going to bring “change”

    lol, I was in a bad mood.. but all a sudden, I’m full of humor.

    SAS

  364. still_looking says:

    sas,

    Thanks… it’s an interesting problem. Sadly, I find most of the patients I see aren’t even interested in prevention.

    I counsel repeatedly [here, too, at times] regarding early colonoscopy, skin mapping, basic routine testing e.g., pap, mammo, digital rectal, stool hemoccult.

    Most folks here can attest to that.

    I understand your point of view, thanks.

    sl

  365. sas says:

    next some is going to tell me the Mexicans help keep cost of food down.

    alot to learn young skywalker..

    Let me tell you something, I like the Mexicans. They just get all the blame for Americans own short comings, and they get played by the politicans, so Joe 6 pack can get caught up in this false right/left, Dem/Republican paradigm.

    man, here it comes. I am going to get alot of heat with this post.

    ;)
    SAS

  366. sas says:

    “I find most of the patients I see aren’t even interested in prevention”

    they have been conditioned too.

    I’m sure your a good bloke of an MD.
    Its just the industry that needs an overhaul, and common sense & critical thinking is lacking.

    If it wasn’t for the blackberry with all the cheat sheets & Google, many MDs would be nothing.

    SAS

  367. lostinny says:

    Still
    No one wants to hear the truth when it’s the polar opposite of what they want/have been doing to get them in that situation.

  368. still_looking says:

    regarding your idea of an AMA-generated physician shortage:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/21/business/21medhome.html?ref=todayspaper

    I think this might be enlightening.

    sl

  369. chicagofinance says:

    njpatient Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 6:59 pm
    253 chi That may be the worst thing you’ve ever posted here.

    still_looking Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 7:20 pm
    324. njp I agree… glad you said it first, though. I admit, I’m disappointed

    Oy….maybe I should explain?…I kind of identified with the injured parties, so I thought I was speaking empathetically. I was not joining in the mocking. My cousins were offenders. One kind of lost her way and suddenly at 28 decided to become a dental hygienist. Ultimately, it was a Mrs. degree….nice lady, but kind of a pig at heart. She ripped this guy to shreds and ripped him off.

    “Doctors are boring. In my HS in Great Neck the nerds studied night and day for four years of HS, Four Years college, Four years of Medical school and then another four years of residency.”

  370. reinvestorX says:

    Ahem. Please excuse me, but I noticed that you’re continuing to use a number and an X that belongs to me. Would you mind ceasing and desisting with that practice and release both of these so I may use them? Everyone else has stopped this practice and you appear to be the one holdout.

    Thanking you in advance for your cooperation,

    R. E. Investor

    Sybarite101 X Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 10:34 pm
    Ok, so the analysis isn’t great. I had to expand the sales data to include all of 2005, becuase only 4 3-Bed condos closed during June. Even then, the total amount of data available isn’t huge. Anyway, here are the results.

  371. still_looking says:

    “If it wasn’t for the blackberry with all the cheat sheets & Google, many MDs would be nothing.”

    As an ER doc, I don’t have the luxury of time to “look stuff up” in the manner you describe when I am making split second decisions about resuscitating the patient in front of me.

    Sorry. Your indictment of my field lacks teeth. [maybe you should see a dentist?]

    sl

  372. Tom says:

    “where do people get their news from to not know about the bust?”

    How can there be a bust if there was no bubble? don’t be ignant.

  373. sas says:

    hi reinvestorX,

    let me guess..
    “song_bird” Mc_Cai_ne.

    sas

  374. sas says:

    “Sorry. Your indictment of my field lacks teeth. [maybe you should see a dentist?]”

    nope.

    we will have to agree to disagree.

    SAS

  375. reinvestorX says:

    I’m so glad to see Inpatient under attack for his elitist position. He just wants everyone to bury themselves in debt to go to law school. I’d also just like to draw everyone’s attention to the fact that King Inpatient thinks he’s better than everyone.

    Please continue to attack him over the next few weeks.

  376. reinvestorX says:

    Sas

    I have no idea what you’re trying to convey. It’s a convention to communicate in full sentences on this damn board. Please comply with that convention so I know what the hell you’re talking about.

  377. still_looking says:

    Dear REinvestor101,

    I hereby promote you from REinvestor101 to REinvestor404.

    I’m sure “404″ is a more appropriate number for you than plain ole “101″

    It was an “error” to demote you to 50.5.

    Regards,

    sl

  378. still_looking says:

    Lost,

    Thank You.

    Thankfully someone here understands it.

    sl

  379. reinvestorX says:

    Hmmm. You claim that you don’t have time to look up stuff in the emergency room, yet you have time to get cute with me on this damn board.

    Don’t mess with me…

    still_looking Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 11:26 pm
    Dear REinvestor101,

    I hereby promote you from REinvestor101 to REinvestor404.

    I’m sure “404″ is a more appropriate number for you than plain ole “101″

    It was an “error” to demote you to 50.5.

    Regards,

    sl

  380. sas says:

    sl,

    hey bloke, at least your an ER, and not an OB/GYN.

    OB/GYN motto:

    “crap, its almost 5 o’clock, and I wanna goto Taco Bell, hey, lets C-section and get the hell out of here”.

    or

    “hey, this is longer than I want to deal with, lets induce this one and get it over with” **meanwhile, the hospital directors are smiliing as they are now treating women in labor like fastfood customers of In & Out burger**

    ye
    SAS

  381. lostinny says:

    Still
    I sure do. Makes me wonder if choosing to bang my head against the wall as a profession was the right choice.

  382. gryffindor says:

    Prevention and healthy lifestyles can’t be achieved with a pill, it takes dedication and awareness to living within certain dietary rules and excercise regimens when diagnosed with things like diabetes and obesity. Therefore the patient doesn’t want any part of prevention it because it is not an instant fix. Patients (consumers) want pills to fix their problems TODAY so drug companies scramble to oblige and make pills and therefore big bucks. Oh wait, this scenario doesn’t sound much different from the lack of savings and credit problems to buy big screen TVs discussed earlier.

  383. Rich In NNJ says:

    NNJJEFF (287),

    SOLD:
    185 E PALISADE AVE $170,000 12/10/1998
    185 E PALISADE AVE $285,000 9/3/2002

    2742597 (Expired / Ownership: Private)
    ACT 185 E PALISADE AVE $515,555 10/19/2007
    PCH 185 E PALISADE AVE $490,000 3/10/2008
    EXP 185 E PALISADE AVE $490,000 4/20/2008
    2816134 (Ownership: Bank)
    ACT 185 E PALISADE AVE $439,000 4/20/2008
    PCH 185 E PALISADE AVE $399,999 6/21/2008
    PCH 185 E PALISADE AVE $399,990 6/21/2008

    Tax Records: (no lis pendens)
    Deed $285,000 8/30/2002
    Mortgage $143,000 8/30/2002
    Mortgage $170,000 7/22/2004 (looks like refi w/equity extraction)

  384. c) Condition – if all things are equal, and the guitar is original – a vintage guitar in excellent condition will be worth more than one that is not.

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  386. christian says:

    I would like to say that i really like your site njrereport.com a lot
    now.. back to business haha
    I cant say that i agree with what you typed up… care to clear things up for me?