Thu 18 Sep 2008
“It’s basically a disaster for tri-state real estate”
Categories: Economics , Housing Bubble , New Jersey Real EstateFrom Bloomberg:
New Jersey’s `Wall Street West’ Quakes Amid Namesake’s Turmoil
Jersey City, where New Jersey bet it could transform warehouse and factory tracts into a “Wall Street West” across the Hudson River from Manhattan, was paying off. That is, until its investment bank tenants started collapsing.
Many of the towers that have sprung up in the past decade on Jersey City’s waterfront are filled with satellite offices for the largest investment-banking firms. More than 3,000 employees of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. and Merrill Lynch & Co. work in New Jersey’s second-largest city.
Lehman this week filed for the biggest bankruptcy, while Merrill agreed to a takeover by Bank of America Corp. Those firms joined Bear Stearns Cos. and at least 20 banks and credit unions nationally that couldn’t survive this year’s credit crunch.
“It’s basically a disaster for tri-state real estate,” said Andy Merin, vice chairman at Cushman & Wakefield in East Rutherford, New Jersey. “Financial companies drive this region. Clearly of all the markets in New Jersey, Jersey City is the most dependent on New York City and the financial arena.”
Jersey City’s Hudson River waterfront has attracted securities firms since the early 1980s, sparking a building boom for office space that now totals 17 million square feet (5.2 million square meters), more than in downtown Atlanta or Pittsburgh, according to the city’s economic development agency.
…
GovernorJon Corzine, a first-term Democrat who ran Goldman Sachs Group Inc. from 1994 to 1999, said yesterday he was watching to see if the financial firms cut any New Jersey-based jobs. As much as a third of the state’s economy is dependent on Wall Street, he said.“I’m worried about the state budget and the state economy in the context of the very dramatic restructuring that we’re seeing on Wall Street,” said Corzine, 61. “We are vulnerable, there is no question about that.”
…
For Jersey City, the likely impact is layoffs and delayed expansion, said James Hughes, dean of the Edward J. Bloustein School of Planning and Public Policy at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey. Lost revenue from the banks is a larger issue for the entire state, he said. Merrill, for example, has 6,500 employees at its complex in Hopewell and many state residents commute to work at the firm’s Manhattan headquarters.“We are at risk,” Hughes said. “The lives of individual employees that potentially lose their job and the income losses to the state, particularly the bonus payments, play a big part in the state’s income tax and revenue.”
First!
Second
ChiFi- Work is insane. Thanks for the heads up.
Second
ChiFi- Work is insane. Thanks for the heads up.
JC and Hoboken are going to be hit pretty hard by this. I would assume all the towns that are desirable/good commutes will be impacted. 10-20 towns?
I know I took a very imperfect stab at the impact. Anyone else done some “back of the envelope” calculations?
My guess is that the higher end will now fade…..but I have been wrong before. We are entering an extended period of nationwide decline. We have really screwed the pooch this time.
where will this leave the NJ Pension Fund.
Mr. Clark seems to fell things are fine.
and Jon,,, well,,,
News say the darnest things: “W. cancels trip to Alabama to manage the situation from dc.”
I almost felt out of bed!
Reality-based Roubini said this in case you missed. Or, in case you want to read it again if you didn’t get it the first time around.
….
This biggest bailout and nationalization in human history comes from the most fanatically and ideologically zealot free-market laissez-faire administration in US history. These are the folks who for years spewed the rhetoric of free markets and cutting down government intervention in economic affairs. But they were so fanatically ideological about free markets that they did not realize that financial and other markets without proper rules, supervision and regulation are like a jungle where greed – untempered by fear of loss or of punishment – leads to credit bubbles and asset bubbles and manias and eventual bust and panics.
….
Like scores of evangelists and hypocrites and moralists who spew and praise family values and pretend to be holier than thou and are then regularly caught cheating or cross dressing or found to be perverts these Bush hypocrites who spewed for years the glory of unfettered wild west laissez faire jungle capitalism (and never believed in any sensible and appropriate regulation and supervision of financial markets) allowed the biggest debt bubble ever to fester without any control, have caused the biggest financial crisis since the Great Depression and are now forced to perform the biggest government intervention and nationalizations in the recent history of humanity, all for the benefit of the rich and the well connected….
……
Yeah and the dems are looking out for the middle class? HA!
Do you know why people enter politics?
Because it is fun spending other peoples money.
Got a letter in the mail yesterday. My local WaMu branch here in Jersey City is closing.
I noticed that Gov Rendell across the river has already put a hiring freeze and spending cuts in place in anticipation of declining tax revenue. Think the former head of GS sees it coming?
Hoboken and JC can suck it.
If demand slacks in the top towns, I suspect it will put downward pressure on the prices below.
If a gicen house in top ranked town only fetches $X spmeone looking in the next lower town will be able to use that to their negotiating advantage, and so on. No?
What are the board’s feelings about how the respective candidates illegal immigration positions will affect demand for RE and RE prices?
gicen? need to not post at a traffic light. GIVEN
How can Hoboken go down? It’s so close to Manhattan.
Shore Guy,
I’m seeing big drops in prices in the sub 500k range in Summit and New Providence. here’s one house in New P that’s now at 469k.
http://www.realtor.com/search/listingdetail.aspx?ctid=9433&mxp=29&typ=7&sid=23616dcd12434bb4b4d034a6c3673037&lid=1100761406&lsn=10&srcnt=15#Detail
I have no idea what the comps at the peak were, only that it would have been way out of our price range. Even this Spring pos splits were listed at 529k.
$3 Thrift Thursday
jon,,, he does not care. it’s a front for him to talk about NJ taxpayers.
spend, on the give away programs that have
made NJ ,,, a welfare state.
“How Washington Failed to Rein in Fannie, Freddie” As profits grew, firms used their power to mask peril… by Binyamin Appelbaum, Carol D. Leonnig and David S. Hilzenrath Washington Post.com 9/14/08
“Gary Gensler, an undersecretary of the Treasury, went to Capitol Hill in March 2000 to testify in favor of a bill everyone knew would fail.
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were ascendant, giant of mortgage finance business and key players in the Clinton administration’s drive to expand homeownership. But Gensler and other treasury officials feared the companies had grown so large that, if they stumbled, the damage to the U.S. economy could be staggering. Few officials had ever publically criticized Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac, but Gensler concluded it was time to rein them in.
“We thought it was a hand-on-the-bible moment,” he recalled.
The bill failed.
“In the fall of 1999, Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers issued a warning saying “Debates about systemic risk should also now include government-sponsored enterprises, which are large and growing rapidly.”
“In June 2003, Freddie Mac dropped a bombshell: It had understated its profits over the previous three years by as much as $6.9B in an effort to smooth over earnings.”
“OFHEO seemed blind, Months earlier, the regulators had pronounced Freddie’s accounting controls “accurate and reliable.”
This six page article spells out several attempts to rein in the GSE’s and how the lobbyists and politicians were just not going to let it happen.
Additionally, I tried checking back re Gramm-Leach-Bliley. Evidently Sandy Weill (Citigroup) was in contact with Clinton to urge the passage. And Clinton’s Secretary of the Treasury, Robert Rubin resigned days later then took a job at Citigroup.
I understand that the problem is complex.. the rates were too low for too long and I read the Marketwatch “Counterparty credit risk hits record high” from yesterday…but
There were chances galore to rein in this mess for years now…I know we elect the politicians and that is our fault but all of this lobbyist stuff just gets to me.
It has been mistake after mistake. I had no idea how many times attempts were made to rein in Fan/Fred until I read this article. Or the influence their lobbys had on politicians.
“Blessed with the advantages of a government agency and a private company at the same time, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac used their windfall profits to co-opt the politicians who were supposed to control them.”
“JC and Hoboken are going to be hit pretty hard by this.”
Rock Chalk,
I posted once on that Hoboken site, about 6-8 months ago. I told them to all get the hell out of Dodge. I stated then when the derivatives and cds blow up, the gold coast will then become the mold coast. I told them they were all loonie to be long RE in Hoboken. They would be better off swapping their RE for the CD [Loonie]. I received 3 responses before they removed my post. They didn’t have a clue what I was talking about.
Bairen,
$500,000 seems to be the least people think their house in N.J. is worth regardless of condition–at least in “desirable” communities
Well Ben, I’m glad you are swinging for the fences. It will be a race to the bottom in the currency markets.
“We have lost control,” said Hale, quoting Bernanke. “We cannot stabilize the dollar. We cannot control commodity prices.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed_oilsep17,0,4833605.story
BC,
Kannekt only removed your post? They banned me for a month:)
21 Renter - I agree. Friend in Sluumit was sure her not fixed up house was worth at least 525k when another house on her street - same layout and condition, but extra powder room s couldn’t even sell for 419k. Maybe she thought the yellow paint in her kitchen was worth 100k?
Cindy,
I liked your thoughtful comments about elementary education yesterday. I asked my daughter’s teacher last night how I could help her memorize he math facts. The response I received was unexpected. “Fortunately, the math curriculum we are using doesn’t require the memorization of any math facts.”
I wonder how the “Gold Coast” is holding up through all this. Wonder if it has been downgraded to bronze yet. or copper.
While waiting for the train this AM, was speaking with another day care mom whose husband works for AIG. They don’t believe he’s in danger of layoff, but everyone of course wants to jump ship.
Apparently all their bonuses were paid out in options, so she says her husband has basically now paid to work there for the last few years.
“China, which holds a fifth of its currency reserves in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac debt, may cut the portion held in US dollars, according to China International Capital Corp (CICC), one of the nation’s biggest investment banks.”
“The crisis has made Chinese officials realize it’s a bad idea to put all their eggs in one basket,” wrote Hong Kong-based Ha. “This will likely lead to greater diversification of foreign exchange reserve investments.”
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-09/12/content_7020656.htm
he [23],
I don’t really know. I never tried to post again.
(25) renter
“Fortunately, the math curriculum we are using doesn’t require the memorization of any math facts.” Bull-puckie…
Well, you can sit there and use your fingers to count up and count on but it gets a bit cumbersome when you move on to trading.
Did you memorize your math facts in grade school?
#21 renter
i just don’t understand it. Yesterday’s thread had an article about the number of NJ half-millionaires increasing from 26,000 to 44,000. If there are only 44,000 people worth between 500k to 1mm, how come pos were a minimum of 500k? Why are there so many luxury cars? I can only think that people think a combination of higher income and low interest rates = wealth.
I did. What do think about Kumon?
Oil ever closer to $40
Central Banks inject cash into the markets. $180bil from the Fed alone, looks to be about $387bil in total. This should be good for a bounce!
Re 30,
Yeah I memorized them, or the nun standing behind me when I recited them would grab me by the ear.
Picture a bunch of hamsters spinning out of control.
“Central bank intervention eclipsed all other economic news in the overnight with the world’s major central banks coming together to announced multiple, massive U.S. dollar liquidity initiatives, designed to help alleviate tensions in the financial markets.”
Global Central Bank Intervention on USD Liquidity: On Thursday, the European Central Bank, the Bank of England, the Federal Reserve, the Bank of Japan, Bank of Canada and the Swiss National Bank announced coordinated actions to be taken to ease elevated tension in the short-term U.S. money markets. “These measures, together with other actions taken in the last few days by individual central banks, are designed to improve the liquidity conditions in global financial markets,” an ECB said in a release. “The central banks continue to work together closely and will take appropriate steps to address the ongoing pressures.”
http://www.economicnews.ca/cepnews/wire/article/121728
#36 Cont’d;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo4WkiFTCk4
The nuns had given up the ruler by the time I was in 3rd grade but humiliation was still in their arsenal.
From MarketWatch:
U.S. weekly initial jobless claims rise 10,000 to 455,000
Initial claims for state jobless benefits rose by 10,000 to 455,000 in the week ending Sept. 13 as residents of Louisiana hit by Hurricane Gustav filed for benefits, the Labor Department said Thursday. The four-week average of initial claims also rose, by 5,000, to 445,000. The number of continuing claims fell to 3.47 million, a drop of 55,000, for the week ending Sept. 6. The four-week average of continuing claims stayed at close to a five-year high, rising by 29,750 to 3.46 million.
Yes that was Sister John Catherine, the math teacher, I am pretty sure she peed standing up, not to be confused with Sister Cather Lauberet, the religion teacher of “you better pray the rosary every night or the communists will come and burn down all the churches with the people inside” fame.
(32) renter “What do you think about Kumon?”
I have no idea what you are talking about - Japanese I’ll assume.
I’m pretty “old-fashioned.” I teach phonics and everything.
Were you damaged in any significant way by being forced to memorize your math facts?
(Well, except for the nun grabbing HEHEHE’s ear) it probably won’t hurt your child any.
Learning to retain information “long term” is a skill. You kill two birds with one stone that way…
Liquidity injections, sweeping rate cuts, bridge loans, stimulus programs, etc..
The road to nowhere?
(37) BC
He stands up again but you never see him walk….
Barbara Corcoran on the “Facing your economic fears” segment from this mornings Today Show:
Matt Lauer: “Mortgage rates going down further, you think?”
Babs Cuckooran: “You know what, who cares if they’re going down further. They might go down a half point, a point but it makes no difference. What we need to do is have the banks and the government offer a 4 7/8% fixed rate mortgage to everybody in America and we would cure our housing problem next week by this time. Everyone would be cured. The subprime people would have no problems, people who have variable rate mortgages that are in fear of the reset would have no problems and new buyers would storm this market place…. we can solve this. Its gotta happen, the governments gotta take the lead and the banks have to play cause we’re all on the same team.”
Fortunately, CNBC’s Sharon Epperson was also part of the panel (Jeanne Chatzkey being the other participant in the triumvirate) and interrupted Barbara’s drivel with the notion that everyone has to determine what kind of mortgage rate makes sense and that you must go through your budget and figure out what you can really afford… saying “Its OK to rent if you can’t afford to buy right now.”
Matty jumped to the topic of 401ks with Chatzky before Babs could let people know that Corcoran offers rental services as well.
What do we expect from a woman who proudly claims she got straight D’s in high school?
“He stands up again but you never see him walk….”
Cindy,
HMMM.
Kannekt:
HeHeHe,
btw great work last week on Kannekt, had me laughing
Cindy [43],
This may depict the world’s cb’s more accurately;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQXsuAey-NE
I do not feel damaged by my Catholic education. I feel grateful to my parents for sending me. I grew to really appreciate the nuns in my highschool.
Kumon is a Japanese program that teaches math via daily practice and twice weekly tutoring. They expect the child to make a daily 30 minute commitment.
I just wish she could learn the basics in school. The school she attends is always searching for new curriculum and new approaches. I think the money would be better spent on additional teachers and the reduction of class sizes.
(45) BC
HMMM ..Where do you come down on the proposal for a new Resolution Trust Corp.?
In the paper today…
“Proponents of a more systemic government role to help relieve financial institutions of their toxic securities range from Lawrence Summers, a former Treasury secretary in the Clinton administration, to former Federal Reserve chairmen Paul Volcker and Alan Greenspan.”
Whenever Volcker speaks - I listen..
New Manchester United jersey announced:
http://s442.photobucket.com/albums/qq145/stuw6/?action=view¤t=manchester-united-jersey.jpg
Short selling is un-American and should be banned even if one borrows the underlying stock. The SEC needs to go futher and really go after the short sellers.
42 BC Bob -
“Liquidity injections, sweeping rate cuts, bridge loans, stimulus programs, etc..
The road to nowhere?”
No wonder why the Fed is funding it.
reinvestor101 Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 9:04 am
Short selling is un-American and should be banned even if one borrows the underlying stock. The SEC needs to go futher and really go after the short sellers.
_________________________________________________
The terrorists will then buy puts. Millions and millions of them. Shall we ban buying puts too?
This will leave one feeling all war and fuzze (No Gary, it is not a cheerleader uniform :-))
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/bulletin/bulletin_080918.htm
Thursday, September 18, 2008
WASHINGTON NEWS
Panic Sweeping Wall Street May Leave No One Standing
The credit crisis on Wednesday threatened to drag down Wall Street banks Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs. The Washington Post reports shares of the firms “tumbled as fears mounted that the two most-vaunted names in investment banking could fall victim to the credit crisis.” The New York Times says on its front page, “Even Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs, the two last titans left standing on Wall Street, are no longer immune,” underscoring “how quickly a sense of fear is spreading through Wall Street.”
Media reports this morning paint a particularly dire picture of the immediate prospects for the US financial system. The New York Times reports “the financial crisis entered a potentially dangerous new phase on Wednesday when many credit markets stopped working normally as investors around the world frantically moved their money into the safest investments, like Treasury bills.” Similarly, the Financial Times says “the panic in world credit markets reached historic intensity on Wednesday, prompting a flight to safety of the kind not seen since the second world war.” The Wall Street Journal reports, “Fear coursed through the US financial system on Wednesday, as hope for a resolution to the year-old credit crisis faded.” Another Wall Street Journal story was titled “Worst Crisis Since ’30s, With No End Yet In Sight.” The Wall Street Journal, Christian Science Monitor, Washington Post and McClatchy run additional analyses on the crisis.
Fed “Stretched To Its Limits” The New York Times reports on its front page, “The mighty Federal Reserve is being stretched to its limits, both in the range of problems it is being asked to fix and in its financial firepower.” The central bank “has also transformed itself almost overnight into the Fed Inc. by essentially taking over American International Group after already taking on hundreds of billions of dollars in mortgage securities to help ailing financial institutions.”
The Washington Post reports “the Federal Reserve has requested that the Treasury Department deposit $40 billion with the central bank in an effort to help the Fed continue to stabilize the financial markets and address concerns about whether it is overstretched.” Under the headline “US Moves To Bolster Fed Balance Sheet,” the Wall Street Journal reports “the Treasury, responding to worries that the Federal Reserve could be running out of financial ammunition to deal with the credit crisis, moved to reload the Fed’s gun with $100 billion worth of bullets.”
Washington Mutual Considers Sale The Wall Street Journal reports, “Washington Mutual Inc. is accelerating efforts to raise more capital or potentially sell itself, reaching out to potential suitors and instructing its investment bankers to step up their efforts to help the struggling thrift escape its mortgage woes.” The Journal adds, “The push got another boost Wednesday when private-equity firm TPG, which led a $7 billion infusion at WaMu in April, gave the Seattle company an important concession that will make it easier to attract additional cash.” The AP says “ailing bank Washington Mutual Inc. appeared headed toward a sale Wednesday after a major investor removed a potential stumbling block and nervous banking regulators began approaching the most logical buyers.”
Dow Falls 449 Points. The AP reports, “The stock market took another nosedive Wednesday as the American banking system appeared even shakier and investors worried that the financial crisis is spinning so far out of control that even government rescues can’t stop it.” The Dow “fell 449.36 to 10,609.66, finishing near its lowest point of the trading day. The index is down more than 7 percent just this week and more than 25 percent since its record close less than a year ago, on Oct. 9, 2007. The Los Angeles Times notes “the Standard & Poor’s 500 index dropped 57.20 points, or 4.7%, to 1,156.39,” and “the Nasdaq composite index slid 109.05 points, or 4.9%, to 2,098.85.”
23% Believe Economy In “Depression” USA Today, in a story titled “Across The USA, Anxiety Rises About What’s Ahead,” reports, “Nearly one-quarter of adults — 23% — believe the US economy is in a depression, according to a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken Monday and Tuesday. That’s nearly double the 12% who said so in February.” While “people haven’t lost hope,” and “nearly half — 47% — say they expect the US economy to be growing a year from now, “concerns are increasing.”
White House Defends Bailouts
President Bush yesterday refrained from commenting on the turmoil in the financial markets as the White House defended the bailout of AIG and other firms. AFP reports President Bush “kept silent Wednesday on battered global markets, as the White House defended huge bailouts of sinking US firms while describing the US economy in ever more sober terms.” Bush, “who has not held a formal press conference since July 15th or taken questions on the economy since a September 7 television interview, worries that anything he says could become fodder in the race to the November 4 elections, explained spokeswoman Dana Perino.”
The Hill reports Perino “was asked repeatedly at the daily briefing Wednesday if the president continues to think, as he has said before, that the economy remains fundamentally strong.” Perino “would say only that Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said ‘that as he looks at our country and compares it with other countries, that we are in a position of strength to be able to deal with this crisis, and it’s going to take us a while to work through it.’”
Roll Call says White House aides “heatedly reject suggestions by Democrats that Bush has not sought to regulate the financial sector, eagerly pointing to a list of initiatives they say Bush pressed for and Democrats resisted.” White House Deputy Press Secretary Tony Fratto said,. “It’s absurd to make the claim that somehow we failed to put in strong regulations.”
Mixed Response On Hill To AIG Bailout The Financial Times reports, “Congress is set to step into the debate over the US Federal Reserve’s $85bn rescue of AIG, with opinion divided on Capitol Hill as to whether the move was avoidable, mistaken or the result of mistakes in the past.” Yesterday, “senior Democrats argued that the government had little alternative to the bail-out, but a leading Republican has attacked the move. … Richard Shelby, the senior Republican on the Senate banking committee, expressed unease about the lurch towards interventionism.”
The Washington Times reports the AIG bailout “is prompting a fierce backlash among many Republican stalwarts who openly decried the Bush administration’s recent string of financial bailouts as a betrayal of the party’s long-held, free-market philosophy.” The Hill and Washington Post run similar stories.
Sign up here to get the US News Political Bulletin emailed to you each morning at 8 a.m.
Congress Pressured For Auto Firm Loans
The New York Times reports “support seemed to be growing quickly on Capitol Hill for $25 billion in loan guarantees to assist the ailing auto industry.” Some Republican Congressional leaders said “they were in favor of helping the automakers,” and in a news conference Wednesday, Senate Harry Reid (D-Nev.) “expressed his own support for aid to the automakers.”
Meanwhile, the chief executives of General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler “held a rare Capitol Hill meeting Wednesday with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and other Democratic leaders to ask for $25 billion in government loans for the auto industry,” The Hill reports. The automakers assert that the loans are needed “to revamp plants in Michigan and other states so that they can produce more hybrid cars and other fuel-efficient vehicles.” According to the Financial Times, “Carmakers are ratcheting up the pressure as the industry grows increasingly concerned that the huge amounts of money the government has spent bailing out Wall Street could hit its attempt to secure funds.”
House Passes Democratic Drilling Measure
The Financial Times reports the House voted 236-189 to approve a Democratic measure to lift the “longstanding ban on offshore oil drilling, opening most of the US coastline to exploration.” Republicans “strongly protested the Democrats’ package, calling the bill a ’sham’ and a ‘hoax,’” in part because it contains restrictions on drilling within 50 miles of the coast. The bill “faces a possible veto from the White House.” AFP reports that in the Senate, the bill “will have to win the support of at least 60 out of the 100 senators in order to be passed, which is unlikely given the lack of Republican support.”
Meanwhile, the Washington Post reports the legislation is facing criticism from another direction — the “environmental purists” who tend to back the Democrats — as well. The Hill reports Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid plans to hold votes on “four separate energy bills in the final week before lawmakers recess on Sept. 26,” which has some senators concerned that there may be “too many competing proposals and too little political will for a last-minute breakthrough on energy legislation” before adjournment.
[snip]
We were at back to school night yesterday. A parent commented that the spelling words posted on the board appeared too easy. The teacher said they were a “standard” third grade list. She then added that the “real” new spelling curriculum/books had been sent but they wouldn’t receive the training on how to use them until mid October.
The publishing companies want to sell new text books to the schools every year so they market the books as a new curriculum. The taxpayer pays for new books….the teachers are frustrated by the ever changing curriculum….the kids lose out.
Renter,
Kumon is the pits. Sylvan works well, but much more expensive.
“they wouldn’t receive the training on how to use them”
It is a BOOK. How friggen hard can it be for college-educated folks to figure out how to use a book in their chosen field of expertise?
Lehman…
when assets are more than debts.. why shud one file for bankruptcy?
So, at what point does all this “injection” action begin to spark inflation? The central banks must have tossed $1T into the hopper by now.
About the global central banks cash infusion. It seems that every time a governmental authority attempts to manipulate the free markets it appears to increase fear on the street and lower indexes. I really don’t think there is any interfering that can smooth the unwind actually. Markets always seem to work best when they are truly free.
So is a long drawn out smooth unwind better than a quick get it over with Volcker-style rapid unwind? The only analogy that I can make is the removing of a Band-Aid. I prefer to quickly rip the sucker off. Sure it hurts, but the pain subsides rapidly. Only a masochist prefers to slowly remove it.
Chandra,
When one sees that there aer things coming that will crush one’s self. Inagine standing waist high in the surf with your feet encased in concrete at the Belmar beach, and you are getting pummeled. Wave after wave is about sweeping you under, but you keep managing to keep your head above water, with increasing difficulty. You turn and see a couple of monster waves approaching that you know will kill you….
That’s why.
re #57
I thought the same thing…utter nonsense.
BC (36)-
I’d say the race to the bottom is fully engaged.
#50 Stu
Stop making me cry.
And, Stu, the anticipation of how much it will hurt is usually far worse than doing it quickly.
Do it quick and get it over with. Kinda like a lady of the night.
You damn real estate terrorists have been successful in unending matters far more than was expected. Banning short selling and put purchasing is only the beginning as far as I’m concerned. It is now time to begin picking up certain individuals and questioning them on their allegiance to the country. The list of short positions now being required by the SEC would be a good starting point to identify people. Of course, dirtbags like Roubini and Peter Schiff should just be brought in on just general principle.
All Hype Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 9:12 am
reinvestor101 Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 9:04 am
Short selling is un-American and should be banned even if one borrows the underlying stock. The SEC needs to go futher and really go after the short sellers.
_________________________________________________
The terrorists will then buy puts. Millions and millions of them. Shall we ban buying puts too?
Shore Guy:
Too vivid.
“Do it quick and get it over with. Kinda like a lady of the night.”
“The terrorists will then buy puts. Millions and millions of them. Shall we ban buying puts too?”
AH,
Exactly. Maybe, while they are at it, they can ban short term trading/day trading and even close the market if it’s down a certain % each day.
What happens to liquidity, bad word, if we ban the short sellers.
Only the absolutey clueless, [50.5], would pin this market action on short sellers. What about being levered 40-1 and holding level 3 assets that represent 100-300% of your capital?
50.5,
If your against short sellers, step up to the plate and start buying.
“So, at what point does all this “injection” action begin to spark inflation?”
Down the shore,
Gold told you what it thought.
“If your against short sellers, step up to the plate and start buying.”
I’ll buy when I get good and damn ready. The shorts/terrorists need to be brought to heel first.
Mussolini, Hitler, ReTard101.
And I thought fascism was dead!
Seneca (44)-
Babs actually comes off like Einstein, compared to some of the agents I deal with.
There is a reason I’m short everything and loaded up on gold. The end of days is upon us.
We got to see Greenberg begging yesterday (truly disgusting); today it’s Babs’ turn.
Somebody should give her a heads up on the fact that the whole credit apparatus has completely seized up. Take the rates to 0…it no longer matters.
Retard,
Your complete ignorance is showing again.
OT: Lost in all of yesterday’s news was Canon’s announcement of the 5D MkII. Very nice stuff.
I fear Photokina will be overshadowed by financial events this year.
“It is now time to begin picking up certain individuals and questioning them on their allegiance to the country.”
Re, I would not be surprised if this was not an appealing option for the Veep. My own business dealings have brought me the wrath of the White House on occasion and I believe that the people currently running the executive will ignore any Constitutional, black-letter or common law, twist any fact, or invent any reason in pursuit of collecting greater power and pressing forth their agenda.
Look, I don’t give a damn what young azz Stu thinks. I’m concerned about those who have deliberately shorted this market and spread rumors. They need to be brought in and made to account for their actions.
“I’ll buy when I get good and damn ready.”
50.5,
That’s not acceptable. Support your market now!
Toshiro,
I’ve been waiting two years for the Nikon 80D to come down. Now that the 90D was released, I may finally be able to get it for a decent price. $2700 for the body only is slightly out of my price range. I’m thinking $500 for the body is more my size.
“deliberately shorted this market and spread rumors.”
50.5,
Like I stated earlier, Clueless. However, thanks for the entertainment.
Re, I would not be surprised if this was not an appealing option for the Veep. My own business dealings have brought me the wrath of the White House on occasion and I believe that the people currently running the executive will ignore any Constitutional, black-letter or common law, twist any fact, or invent any reason in pursuit of collecting greater power and pressing forth their agenda.
This is about preserving our country and now about collecting power. The shorts and real estate terrorists are attempting to take over and destroy our wealth. They must be stopped at all costs. Yes, it is very appealing to get some of these troublemakers off the street!
“Somebody should give her a heads up on the fact that the whole credit apparatus has completely seized up. ”
Hence the panic caused by work of the Reserve Fund breaking the buck.
I have known two people who have declared bankruptcy, who, before doing so, concluded that their situation was hopeless. So, what did they do? They knew that any savings would go to creditors. Thus,they maxed-out every credit card, bought everything they ever wanted and then went under.
I suspect that if folks see MM as a risk, bank accounts as worthless depreciating assets, same for CDs given inflation, the Stock Market tanking, the American consumeer will just spend it as it comes in, sending the profits overseas.
Unless the candidates give folks a reason to save, they will not, and it further hurts us.
now=not
tard (51)-
You can suck it, too.
Deliberately shorted? Ding! Thanks to you, I’m a hell of a lot wealthier. I wish there were more of you out there. I’d be rich!
Spread rumors? If truth = rumors, then your mental illness is worse than was originally diagnosed.
#78 - Stu - If you don’t already know about it, KEH.com is probably the greatest used photo shop on the face of the planet. You should be able to find a D80 in your price range with no problem.
I bought my Hasselblad & Mamiya from them and can’t say enough good things about them. Their equipment ratings are super conservative. Anything that they list as “bargain” would be A++ anywhere else.
Trump on CNBC last night said now is a great tiem to buy a house. Everyone should go out and buy at least one.
In case anybody thinks the fun is over:
Tomorrow is triple witching options expiration.
The rumor is Bear has level 3 assets that represent 300% of their capital. Hey, the rumor is someone slapped a 2 handle on it?
ReTard: Why don’t we follow in the footsteps of your leader GWB. Since housing terrorists attacked us, we should retaliate against say sports fans?
Stu, you’re nothing but a bald faced liar and an unrepetant cheapskate. Guess what? Your little profits at the expense of this great nation will be given back. I hopet that you are one of the individuals who get picked up. Justice would be that you and the rest of the terrorists be disgourged of all your ill gotten gains. Dirtbag.
Re,
I admire you passion. The place where I disagreee with you is about people destroying our wealth. The wealth was never really rthere to begin with. We appeared to be, and we believed ourselves to be, and we want to keep pretending to be. But the fake wealth, the paper gains of RE are going or gone.
When we were kids, a bunch of us had some baseball cards, and had a card in common. One of the guys sold this common card to a real nerd for something like $.50. Which in those days was about enough to buy a whole bunch of packets of cards. For awhile, those of us who had he same card figured we were rich. The problem was, there were no other suckers willing to pay the same price.
A similar thing happened with RE. There are thousands of homes in a given area and a few of them sell from time to time. Everyone looks at those sales and figures they could get the same. For awhile they could, now they can’t. The value was never what they thought it was, it just appeared to be so.
Now we are (well financial markets) reallty Fu6ked (Doomed) - Once Bush steps in it is all over….:
President Bush to speak on financial markets
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26768589/
WASHINGTON - President Bush will address the recent financial market developments in a press conference scheduled for shortly after 10 a.m. ET Thursday morning.
I wonder if bush will use crayons and the Fed coloring book to illustrate his points?
The Retard says:
“I hopet that you are one of the individuals who get picked up.”
See I’m much smarter than you. I’ll make sure I’m driving the fan! By this time, you will most likely be sweeping the streets.
“This is about preserving our country and now about collecting power. The shorts and real estate terrorists are attempting to take over and destroy our wealth. They must be stopped at all costs. Yes, it is very appealing to get some of these troublemakers off the street!”
_________________________________________________
Sieg Heil! Sieg Heil! Sieg Heil!
LMAO!!!
I wonder if bush will use crayons and the Fed coloring book to illustrate his points?
post of the day
sl
“Bush had planned to attend a Republican fundraiser in Jupiter, Fla”
Passing up an opportunity to raise money in a battleground like Florida speaks volumes.
And remember, every time Bush mentions stimulus checks, take a drink!
Or we can do what Russian goverment Does - Close the Stock Markets…
Rattled Russia orders markets to stay closed
Medvedev says they can open Friday, vows to prevent meltdown
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26771176/
Al (92)-
Maybe he will ask us all to go shopping again.
“New agency seen as a solution to woes”
Bee News Service - part of the article
“In concept, the proposal would resemble the Resolution Trust Corp. which disposed of bad assets held by hundreds of crippled savings institutions. Created in 1989, the RTC closed or restructured 747 institutions holding assets of nearly $400B. It did so by seizing the assets of troubled savings and loans and then reselling them to bargain-seeking investors.”
“But the parallels to the RTC are inexact. The federal government, unlike now, had no choice but to acquire the assets from savings associations because they were backed by federal deposit insurance. The mortgages now at the heart of Wall Street’s woes are not backed by federally insured deposits.
Moreover, the mission of the RTC was to dispose of the assets as quickly as possible for maximum value. Its goal was to reduce taxpayer exposure.”
The minute we delude ourselves that “it could never happen here,” it is on the cusp of happening here.
Clot,
Attention Wall Street shoppers, FedCo has a flashing red light special on Maiden Lane. For the next three minuts, for three minutes only….
#91 shore; So true. Some people however still cannot understand that.
With all that has happened this weeek, and with all that will continue to transpire you would think people would at least start to understand.
And than this lsiting comes on today in my town: http://www.njmls.com/cf/details.cfm?mls_number=2841263&id=999999
Hey I spent my Stimulus check - every little penny of it and than some….
All he needs to do is to give first time fun home buyers 200K tax credit - over lets say 10 years, and not the stupid no interest loan, real credit.
This would be so much fun since 1 year old babies would be buying homes :)
Real Bush Thinking - man, why could not I somehow postpone this $hit by 60 days!!!!????
Stu/Gator - was in your neck of the woods last night for a work event.
Nice.
One of the greatest political lines from any rock song came from Midnight Oil’s PPower and the Passion” : “better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.”
This suburban dad and business owner has no desire to die, or rust away in a gulag anyplace but, better to do that than to allow the likes of the current administration to gut the Constitution and hollow out the right to liberty that my family fought for during the Revolution (100 years after getting here) and fought to preserve in the Civil War.
It is great to love one’s countyr, it is dangerous to be in love with one’s political leaders.
Watched the 11pm news on ABC last night. First three stories were:
1) Falling glass in times square (no injuries).
2) Wall Street pain
3) Union lice outbreak (since more than one student was reported having it)
More time was given to the lice outbreak in Union then on the happenings on Wall Street. The broken window story on 44th street was at least twice as long as the lice outbreak.
Lice and glass falling 52 floors sells. Witnessing the fall of the United States, well that would prompt most to simply change the channel.
Just heard that individual investors have over $3T in MM funds. Suck that out of the system and….
Lice and glass falling 52 floors sells. Witnessing the fall of the United States, well that would prompt most to simply change the channel.
As I was told many times - It is too depressing, turn it off!!
we live in a culture of “Make me fell warm and fuzzy inside, or I don’t want to hear it”
Lets see which broadcast TV networks and which popular music and sports stations break away from regular programing to cover the president’s press conference.
[109]
Well, that would help the banks, since that 3T would have to go somewhere.
Or maybe the First National Sealy Posturepedic Bank and Trust?
# 112
Nom,
There is a disincentive to move to a regular savings account — interest rates are 1/3 of inflation, at best, and then the tax bite takes more. I bet a lot of people will say screw it and just buy what they have been denying themselves. If the money wil be worth less tomorrow than today….
Ya know, the more I listen to Dick Bove, the more I wonder why I am listening to Dick Bove.
I have concluded that, if there is someone that is a bigger contraindicator than Cramer, it’s Dick Bove.
So 2 new rules for the Deplumes:
1. I have capitulated.
2. I am not listening to Dick Bove
[113]
You mean, like I am doing? I am buying stuff too. It’s measured in units like .223, .38, and 9×18mm.
And some patio furniture and a big screen TV. Gotta do my part.
This sounds like something from Weekend Update on SNL:
Former child star Gary Coleman was charged Wednesday with reckless driving and disorderly conduct following an argument in a bowling alley in Utah.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,424488,00.html
[113]
Agreed, but there is insurance and most folks don’t much care about after tax yield when safety is a concern.
In the early 90’s, I encouraged folks to buy treasuries if they were worried about bank safety.
Given the after tax yields lately, most of my savings is in Muni funds. Unfortunately, most will migrate from PA to NJ soon, so I may rethink how much Corzine risk I want to take on.
106 Lisoosh - Where did ya go?
Nom,
I would hope people whold act so wisely; however, my faith in peopledoing the right thing has diminished of late.
As bush was speaking the Dow started dropping. Oy!
about the half millionaires…
I’m thinking they’re refering to net wealth.
Owning a $750,000 house with a $700,000 mortgage would not qualify you as a half millionaire, even if you drive a $100,000 car.
Investment strategist says worst is yet to come.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/worst-yet-come-investment-strategist/story.aspx?guid=55B21789-3A26-495A-B0D3-5AF3F6ABDA18&dist=SecMostRead
John,
Are you opening a charter school???
NEW YORK (WCBS 880) — Officials in a Long Island community are reviewing policies after it turns out they approved a charter school to open near a topless bar, Newsday reported.
The school was to be next door to the Taste of Honey bar in Hempstead.
The Academy Charter School was to open next fall with 168 students.
Officials admit that the site was never visited before approval was granted.
http://www.wcbs880.com/School-Accidentally-Located-Next-to-Topless-Bar/2988700
John,
Are you opening a charter school???
NEW YORK (WCBS 880) — Officials in a Long Island community are reviewing policies after it turns out they approved a charter school to open near a top-less bar, Newsday reported.
The school was to be next door to the Taste of Honey bar in Hempstead.
The Academy Charter School was to open next fall with 168 students.
Officials admit that the site was never visited before approval was granted.
http://www.wcbs880.com/School-Accidentally-Located-Next-to-Topl*ess-Bar/2988700
remove * to activate link
Bank of America is headquartered in Charlotte, NC. I think.
Chances are they may want to move Merrill’s operations down there. Merrill is based in the WFC and has operations in NJ. Will be interesting to see how many of the NYC/NJ jobs are moved south.
I do not think this is like ripping off a bandaid. Comparing it to this assumes there is a clear, known solution to the crisis. Right now, there is not. Yes, we know generally that the problem is bad debt, but the question is what is the best way to unwind this debt that causes the least damage to the overall economy. If you allow everything to collapse at once, you are going to have a huge amount of collateral damage beyond the firms/people who simply mad bad business decisions. There needs to be an orderly process to understand what exactly is on the books of all of these firms, where the counterparty risk is and how best to unwind these bad investments that maximizes value for everyone. This is more like treating the bubonic plague than ripping off a bandaid
#124 poser: I belive most of the back office jobs will be moved to Charlotte.It would be a huge cost savings for the combined entity.
Hey who knows, maybe the center of fiance moves from NYC to Charlotte. I guess anything is possible these days.
here’s a nice story for the group:
my buddy’s wife who is pregnant with twins was informed today that she had been laid off from her sales position at schering plough (worked from home in cherry hill).
he works for a small hedge fund that is down 25% on the year and is equally unsure where his job stands.
after their 100k wedding that was paid for by “dad” they purchased a 400k townhouse (against my advice) that is now selling in the 330-350k range. they are both 29 and don’t appear to be sweating because they have safety nets in wealthy parents. i can’t decipher if i’m angry or jealous.
gary #104 is for you!!!
3b,
Love the kitchen. Is that a washing machine (clothes) next to the sink?
Shore (116)-
“Former child star Gary Coleman was charged Wednesday with reckless driving and disorderly conduct following an argument in a bowling alley in Utah.”
There goes his chance to be Comptroller of the Currency under Ohdrama.
#129 Stu : 1st floor laundry room!!! Bring your checkbook, show it and sell it!!!!
“HOUSE TO BE SOLD AS IS. IDEAL FOR FIRST TIME HOME BUYERS.”
Translation: Only a first time home buyer would be stupid enough to purchase this POS.
Gator - “The Loft” on Lackawanna Plaza. Catered thing. Went to meet someone for lunch the other day on Church St., Raymonds but was too busy so went across the street.
My “constituency” resides in Livingston, Short Hills, Montclair, West Orange and other similar towns in the area - the Wall Street train towns. My first real foray into this area. I live between Princeton and New Brunswick and in my old job worked Somerset and Hunterdon Counties. Very different.
It’s my first real contact with the mindset discussed here for the past 3 years. Already had a big disagreement with my boss - owns properties in Prestigious Bergen County.
anyhoo - i get the attraction of Montclair. Little congested for me, but a nice place to work with an expense account. :-)
Poser (124)-
Fat chance. More likely the jobs are eliminated, period.
My friend who has one year old twins and is pregant is worried about getting laid off even thought she nets zero after day care and nanny/maid and when the third comes along she will be losing money by working. She wants to work as she is too lazy to cook, clean and watch her kids. She is very scared she will get let go and have to do her own work at home. OMG the hardships, it is another great depression.
3b
Dispersing the finance industry, so that it is not as likely to be destroyed by a single nuke, may not be a bad thing.
Scared and looking for safety?
If you want safety, buy stock of only large, well established companies. Companies like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Morgan Stanley, the 158 year old Lehman Brothers, and the largest insurance company in the US - AIG.
These comapnies have weathered many storms, and they are a safe place to park your money until this mess blows over. :-)
#132 stu: I think I am going to e-mail the realtor with that comment.
@shore guy:
Perhaps the victim was just trying to snap a better picture than the best picture ever:
http://benspark.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/best_picture_ever-714440.jpg
‘Four Bazookas’ Needed to End Crisis: El-Erian
http://www.cnbc.com/id/26771289
Clot,
You working for PIMCO now?
“If you want safety, buy stock of only large, well established companies. Companies like Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Morgan Stanley, the 158 year old Lehman Brothers, and the largest insurance company in the US - AIG. ”
Make,
It sounds much like one of our brokers yesterday. I was redeploying some assets to cash and the broker kept wanting us to buy, buy, buy.
MJ
That photo just strikes me as creepy.
STT is off 10% today alone. Talk about tossing the baby with the bathwater. Since I sold the last of my STT at 74, I am pretty happy right now.
Was thinking 55 would be a good re-entry point, but since I have capitulated, I am going to wait until it gets below $50.
Also my NJ Muni CEFs are getting F*cked. Can someone explain why munis are getting clobbered? Is there that much concern that NJ is gonna declare bankruptcy?
OT-
Here’s some good news about NJ kids who received Davidson scholarships and honors for breakthrough work in science, math, etc…
http://www.davidsongifted.org/fellows/Article/Davidson_Fellows___2008_405.aspx
More about Davidson Fellowship Scholarships…
http://www.davidsongifted.org/fellows/
[124] Poser,
I don’t know that very many jobs will move to NC. Rather, it is a lot more likely that they will be eliminated instead.
I have BofA cards and the servicing on them has been slow and awful. They are airline point cards with an annual fee, but I have managed to keep getting the fees waived each year by calling to cancel, then letting them talk me into keeping the cards. Once I get enough points to use and book some flights, I am dumping the cards.
Bergen County NJMLS Comp Killers!
Allendale; 45 CARTERET RD
SOLD: $1,205,000 8/29/2005
SOLD: $1,050,000 9/16/2008
Bergenfield; 19 FREDERICK PL
SOLD: $380,000 1/31/2007
SOLD: $320,000 9/12/2008
Bergenfield; 47 BROOKVIEW TER
SOLD: $419,000 12/19/2006
SOLD: $385,000 9/17/2008
Fort Lee; 1026 HARVARD PL
SOLD: $560,000 6/8/2004
SOLD: $419,900 9/17/2008
Glen Rock; 20 HILLMAN AVE
SOLD: $629,000 7/7/2005
SOLD: $610,000 9/16/2008
Park Ridge; 1 KINDERKAMACK RD
SOLD: $555,000 3/20/2006
SOLD: $447,000 9/16/2008
Ramsey; 193 MYRTLE AVE
SOLD: $999,000 11/16/2005
SOLD: $987,500 9/13/2008
Ridgewood; 396 GODWIN AVE
SOLD: $825,000 8/9/2005
SOLD: $816,500 9/12/2008
Ridgewood; 138 CLAREMONT RD
SOLD: $995,000 6/25/2008
SOLD: $896,875 9/15/2008
River Edge; 201 WEBB AVE
SOLD: $425,000 1/19/2005
SOLD: $385,000 9/9/2008
Rutherford; 491 RIVERSIDE AVE
SOLD: $400,000 11/27/2006
SOLD: $351,000 9/12/2008
Teaneck; 321 RUTLAND AVE
SOLD: $790,000 8/27/2004
SOLD: $665,000 9/15/2008
#134 Clotpoll-
Have you walked down 42nd lately? BOA is building a enormous building there and is just about ready to move in…
[144] redux
The point I was going to make (and didn’t) was that BofA seems to be cutting back on servicing in all areas.
I expect them to cut staff and make do rather than go thru the expense of relo’ing people to an area that they probably don’t want to relo to.
#146 Rich-
What kind of house is 481 Riverside Avenue in Rutherford?
@toshiro
I had been waiting for the 5DM2.
But I am seriously disappointed in its shutter & mirror.
Only a 1/200 X-Sync. Long shutter lag and mirror blackout.
5DM2 has the greatest sensor ever. But 50D is a better camera, not counting the sensor.
BklynHawk (148),
3 bed, 1 1/2 bath, side hall colonial on 75×150 lot, taxes: $7,669
MJ/Shore: Want creepy?
http://sonofbillbrasky.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/2605064082564mark-messier-gary-coleman.jpg
Contemplating an Oly E-3, but waiting until Photokina to decide.
Example of BOLD leadership:
THE PRESIDENT: The American people are concerned about the situation in our financial markets and our economy, and I share their concerns.
I’ve canceled my travel today to stay in Washington, where I will continue to closely monitor the situation in our financial markets and consult with my economic advisors. I spoke to Secretary Paulson this morning, and I will meet with him later on today.
In recent weeks, the federal government has taken extraordinary measures to address the challenges confronting our financial markets. We’ve taken control of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — the home finance agencies — to help promote market stability and to ensure they can continue to play a role in helping our housing market recover. This week, the Federal Reserve acted to prevent the disorderly failure of the insurance company AIG — a development that could have caused a severe disruption in our financial markets and threatened other sectors of the economy. Yesterday, the Security and Exchange Commission took action to strengthen investor protections and step up its enforcement actions against illegal market manipulation. Last night, the Federal Reserve, in coordination with central banks around the world, took a substantial step to provide additional liquidity to the U.S. financial system.
These actions are necessary, and they’re important. And the markets are adjusting to them. Our financial markets continue to deal with serious challenges. As our recent actions demonstrate, my administration is focused on meeting these challenges. The American people can be sure we will continue to act to strengthen and stabilize our financial markets and improve investor confidence.
#147 nom: tehy can offer relo packages to people, if they choose to go, fine. If not they hire people down there at a much lower rate.
Contemplating a Kodak Brownie, but waiting until Hawkeye Brownie to decide.
@grim:
I don’t like the E-3 — No point in carrying so much camera with such a lame sensor. Olympus only makes sense as a tiny walk around — E-420 or E-520.
http://www.cnbc.com//id/26772669
Did you really think Buffet was gonna buy a Financial Firm?
“I’ve canceled my travel today to stay in Washington, where I will continue to closely monitor the situation in our financial markets and consult with my economic advisors.”
Phuleezzzeeee. The VC-25 planes the president usually use, a.k.a. AF1, have top-notch communications and videoconferencing capabilities. He can’t monitor the situation from the air? Is he saying that things are so very bad that if he is out of communication with Treasury for the 15 minutes to 1/2 hour he will be speaking at the event that the economy will collapse? With this guy in charge, we are in a boatload of trouble.
Let’s play,’When Bush opens his trap’.
Who can guess what time he spoke today?
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=^DJI&t=1d
[154] Not so sure. Back office ops at Merrill may require a greater degree of sophistication than what is found in Charlotte generally. I was actually surprised to see that, despite being HQ for BoA and Wach, it isn’t a very big town at all, businesswise.
Also, it isn’t as if you can just fold in operations, like with Countrywide. Not a lot of opportunities for integration, then there are those pesky rules requiring the FHC to keep the IB sub separate from the banks.
I worked on Citi’s integration in the aftermath of its Traveler’s/SSB/Citi conglomeration and there were a lot of issues, including outright refusal by the SSB people to acknowledge their lord and master. The later acquisitions I worked on were integrated far more smoothly as they were bank or finance company acquisitions that got folded into their existing businesses.
“a development that could have caused a severe disruption in our financial markets and threatened other sectors of the economy”
It would be nice for the policy makers to translate this into terms that Joe and Jane Mainstret will fully understand. I suspect that while nearly everyone here can translate this statement and read what is intended to be read between the lines most of the population can’t.
@shore guy:
Don’t worry, he’s not in charge of anything.
He’s the mouth for reading statements he’s been told to read.
Wow, already overwhelmed by the number of comments, not ime to read them all…….
SHore:
regarding inflation. The Gov may have added about 1 trillion so far but 3+ trillion has also evaporated so far and the real amount could be much larger then that when you consider all the Alphabet soup financial instruments that are now worth pennies on the dollar. Deflation will not stop until the credit created in the leveraging wonderland that was wallstreet evaporates down to a manageable level. 30:1 is not manageable. I dont know what the bottom will be but i might guess a final stable point of 8-10:1. However like the reversion to mean in housing, the credit deflation will overshoot on the downward side. We will see credit deflation in volumes of 2-3X the national GDP before this is over.
If nothing else consider the amounts of money in level 3 assets. The value of those level 3 assets is currently based on mark-to-fantasyland. mark-to-market makes most of those assets worth pennies at best.
Deflation until the credit bubble has deflated, then be ready to see some serious inflation
@shore guy:
Most of the population has no idea anything is amiss. Still.
Also, most of the population is in debt, so they’re not worried about “their money.” They have none.
Let’s play,’When Bush opens his trap’.
Stu,
FOr grins, I was watching the ticker while listeniing to him speak. It was like his lips were syncronized to the market.
Deflation until the credit bubble has deflated, then be ready to see some serious inflation.
Kettle,
I know me and you go back and fourt with this. In your perspective how long does the Deflationary period last?
Clot - Looks like it is dinner out today for you.
SKF off to the races.
Interesting that the Real Weapons of Mass Destruction are Stealth Financial Instruments, created by Wall Street, and Sanctioned by Congress. No wonder they couldn’t find the WMD’s in Iraq, they were in Washington and New York.
Thanks, RichNNJ.
Any comments on Rutherford?
#153
what is the president supposed to say? everybody panic? or maybe he should get on TV and start talking about Level 3 assets– that would be really illuminating for the average American.
by any standard, the executive branch is making some very bold moves right now (different from Ford). they are working within a legal framework that is not equipped to deal with the current situation, and Congress is basically sitting on its hands and saying, “you figure it out.” no one else is stepping up to prevent a complete collapse of the banking system. it is really interesting to watch it from the outside, but if the system was simply allowed to crash we would be back in the middle ages within a couple of months
Maybe Bush could comment on this;
“The development of our paradigms for containing risk has emphasized dispersion of risk to those willing, and presumably able, to bear it. If risk is properly dispersed, shocks to the overall economic system will be better absorbed and less likely to create cascading failures that could threaten financial stability.”
“The wide-ranging development of markets in securitized bank loans, credit card receivables, and commercial and residential mortgages has been a major contributor to the dispersion of risk in recent decades both domestically and internationally. These markets have tailored the risks associated with such assets to the preferences of a broader spectrum of investors.”
http://www.federalreserve.gov/BoardDocs/Speeches/2002/20021119/default.htm
# reinvestor101 is our Court Jester.
Complete moron but humorous and entertaining sometimes…
Damn, GS down another 10+ bucks.
What goes around, comes around.
People must have waited a long, long time for payback..
“Most of the population has no idea anything is amiss”
And they will not have a clue until our “leaders” start speaking plainly, soberly, and clearly about what is at stake. If the nation’s leadership does not stop couching its statements so as to “prevent panic” amongst the populace, the public will have no fair warning of the situation we face and the ultimate revelation will be a 2×4 to the gut and followed by a baseball bat to the face (speaking in similes, of course).
The Administration and industry may well be working their @$$es off to prevent economic collapse. Nevertheless, in such a situation, the public MUST be informed in a way that actually informs them.
Currently, we are in a situation akin to a patient being close to lapsing into a coma, or dying, and the family is hearing vague statements from the medical team, which is reassuring the family that the medical team is doing everything possible and they are confident that the patient is strong and things can work out well. If what the family is hearing is “everything is going to be fine,” whether spoken by the docs or not, they are going to be much more angry if the patient does not recover.
Major commercial RE planning big announcment this afternoon. RE giant may fold.
our entire economy depends on the availability of credit [from the WSJ]:
“The damage has gone beyond banks and brokerages. Ford Motor Credit Co., the finance arm of Ford Motor Co., paid 7.5% for Tuesday-night overnight borrowings, says one trader. Typically, the rate for such debt would be about one-quarter percentage point over the federal-funds rate, which is currently 2%, he says. Even for companies considered of the safest credit quality, the cost of overnight debt is rising. General Electric Co. was forced to pay 3.5% for overnight borrowing on Wednesday, the trader says. In normal times, GE, which has the highest debt rating, would have to pay the equivalent of the federal-funds rate.”
“Damn, GS down another 10+ bucks.”
AH,
I would not be surprised if they were shorting their own stock.
make 165
I think deflation will continue until real leverage of the big financial companies 9 the ones that survive) drops to somewhere in the neighborhood of 5:1 to 10:1. I also include Fannie and freddie in that as they are hiding massive losses 9 hence GW’s enron act in refusing to put them on the books).
Worst case is that this level of deflation ( now being mentioned in the media as “debt deflation”) could occur by Xmas 2009. But i expect the timeline to be closer to a switch from deflation to inflation sometime around late 2010 early 2011. Deflation maxing out sooner then 2010,2011 has catastrophic consequences for both the US and the global economy. I agree with ChiFi that speed could be a killer here but so could dragging it out.
An additional caveat is the bond market. if the bond market really starts to tank the GOV may say screw it and just go for hyper inflation, which would cause the rapid deflation model followed by hyper inflation.
Note to all: I am not calling the end of the world. I am suggesting that all of that funky mexican you ate last night has to come out sometime and it wont be pretty.
@shore guy:
I look at it this way.
Those same “most of the population” voted, over my entire lifetime and before it, for the same Democrats and Republicans that ruined America.
So, am I concerned that those a55hat Democrats and Republicans aren’t properly informing the idiot “most of the population” about their impending doom? No, I don’t care. They earned it.
I don’t like the E-3 — No point in carrying so much camera with such a lame sensor. Olympus only makes sense as a tiny walk around — E-420 or E-520.
I know, but I’ve got some Oly glass that would hurt to part with. Sensor sucks, but Oly pro-line glass is among the best I’ve ever used (L? Yawn).
Was a long time Nikon shooter, F3HP still ranks as my favorite camera ever, and I still put film through my EOS-1n. I do still have some mediocre Canon glass, so the move over to a 50D wouldn’t be so painful.
#127 - Secondary
It would be interesting to see some stats on the level of parental support out there. I am 31 and seems like a number of the people I went to college with are still getting some form of parental support almost 10 years after graduation, i.e. downpayment for house, vacations, paid for weddings, or “working” for a family business (in quotes because pops and/or granddad really run the show).
Hi JB/KL,
Is GSMLS#: 2578046 Bank owened? I am guessing from how badly the landscaping is maintained in the picture.
http://new.gsmls.com/media/getImage.do?mlnum=2578046&res=highres&num=0
Bush owes an obligation to the nation to take truely bold action. The new budget year starts in a couple weeks, he should get congress to slash spending now, to bring spending closer to revenue (matching funds and block grants to towns, states, etc should be cancelled if the governments receiving the money do not cut budgets by some percentage). If congress adjourns, he should call them back into session. He should make an Oval Office address and lay the cards on the table, using Ross-Perot-style foam boards if necessary. His administration has been a disaster. He can salvage some bit of a reputation in history for being bold and honest and actually doing something concrete in a time of economic crisis.
Be bold or be gone.
“Morgan Stanley is in merger talks with Wachovia, a move that would make more sense if Morgan were seeking synergies rather than seeking safety,” Christopher Low, chief economist at FTN Financial in New York, said in a research note. “Wachovia, after all, has huge option ARM exposure through Golden West, and option ARMS are shaping up as this year’s subprimes.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080918/ts_nm/financial_dc
Shore I agree entirely, its about damn time the government does what everyone is expected to do in rough times and cut back spending.
Skep:
If all of these bridge loans default, which IMO is a distinct possibility, we will wish we were in the middle ages. It’s not just about the leverage. I see the market as a predictor and it’s saying that people are not going to buy anything but absolute necessities. When gas was $4 per gallon, people didn’t cut back. I was befuddled by this as in the past, demand destruction caused by higher gas prices always brought gas prices down. This time around it didn’t. The housing ATM and easy credit is what has caused the consumer to finally break their habits, not anything else. Well the whole country is screwed because we no longer manufacture anything, except for debt (at least we used to). Our economy is built on mass consumerism. When this breaks, the market breaks. Why would China or Japan continue to buy our national debt if we are no longer buying their exports. The problem is much bigger than the timely unwind of leverage. This is only one symptom and these bailouts really aren’t helping the majority. We are aiding the top 5% as usual by providing these bailouts that are all doomed to fail.
The bank run is gonna happen and the middle ages is being too nice. I’m thinking it will be more like the dark ages.
Sorry kids. Christmas was canceled.
HEHEHE, why the hell would one of the better I-banks want to merge with a pos like Wachovia. MS should find a better bank to go with as should GS, maybe Dimon can reunite the family divided by glass-stegall.
Quote of the day when describing the GOV and FED trying to manage the financial crisis (attributed to unknown blogger)
“Hey look they are trying to land the Hindenburg on the deck of the Titanic.”
“the whole country is screwed because we no longer manufacture anything, except for debt”
Stu,
What 20th century thinking. We DONT NEED to make anything, we invent things, we service things, we think deep thoughts for the rest of the world.
Oh yea, we bomb things well too.
#182
Shore– agree completely.
@jcer: the mergers are just attempts at becoming “too big to fail.”
Money Market Fund Investors Catch the Fear
“Number one, what assets are in your money market fund, is your baseline protection, and it is rather easy to uncover for yourself. According tot he Wall Street Journal, Vanguard Group, American Century Investments and Charles Schwab (SCHW), have posted notices on their Web sites assuring investors that none of their money-market funds hold any securities issued by Lehman or American International Group (AIG). That would be the first place to start.”
http://www.minyanville.com/articles/markets-reserve-lehman-leh-wachovia-wb/index/a/19044
Jcer,
I agree wholeheartedly. There has to be some OTHER bank out there other than that dump. Why not Wells Fargo or a US Bancorp?
Jcer,
Lets see Bush cut even 1% of his WH political staff. Not the carpenters and butlers and other people who make the place run on a mechanical level, but the folks in the policy shop, in the EEOB, in the 17th street building, etc. Lets see him call on congress to cut committee and office staff by 1%. Lets see our hired leaders disband any number of commissions that maybe do good work, but are not critical to the functioning of the government.
Folks, Mom lost her job and dad is barely holding onto his, season tickets to the Rangers are nice but it is not going to happen this year. Enhanced cable is nice, but we will need to adapt to basic.
I am not asking the government to operate out of a refrigerator box undeneath the 17th street bridge but, IT IS TIME TO CUT.
189 Skep/Shore in agreement again.
Ain’t gonna happen. Why cut spending when you can increase the debt. Be real.
Spending won’t get cut until government workers are told they are not getting their full pensions. It might not be announced, but there is no way the populace will pay for what is guaranteed in those retirement benefits.
If I was a kid today and I understood what was going on at the national level, I would immediately flee to Central America.
#176
I know all disclaimers but isnt GS attractive at around 100?
Stu, Skep
Financial collapse is not Armageddon. Cold War style nuclear MAD is Armageddon.
Look at iraq, Ukraine, Argentina. All of these place shave suffered economic collapse for different reasons but the result is the same. people still go about living their lives. Those lives are very different as who brittany is banging this week is no longer relevant. But the things that matter, family, friends, and a quiet moment with loved ones still go on. You might not be shopping for a new lexus, you might be trying to secure a reliable sanitary water supply instead. But consider that for the majority of humans on this planet that is a normal activity. Shopping for the new lexus is not. The USA is about to see one b!tch of a reversion to mean.
Stu, I think we have taken manufacturing to the wayside but honestly while the prospects for the US are quite grim, we still do produce. Really all of the great high tech products are designed here, we still have the best engineering capacity in the world. Apple, Google, Yahoo, MicroSoft, Sun, IBM, Intel, AMD, Boeing, all of the large scale construction companies, etc. While there was a lot of fluff and overvalued assets, I-banks etc there is still value here. While M usually comes off as a crazy old man, if you put together his statements that were mocked on the Daily show last night it makes sense. The fundamentals of our economy are still strong, but they are at risk, jobs will be lost, people will lose a lot of money it will be similar to the Great Depression although not as severe because the gov knows it needs to keep people producing and will not allow a shutdown like the 1930’s to occur. So please calm down the sh* is hitting the fan, but the sky is not falling.
I would love to see the House of Morgan reunited just for history sakes. I imagine Dimon is holding out for Goldman. That is the only explanation I can garner.
Wow. I go get some coffee and the Dow drops 150 points and is now negative.
STT down almost 11 bucks, to 53 and change.
Soooooo glad I sold on the last rally, though it doesn’t come close to covering my losses.
Maybe my re-entry point will be $40. At this rate, that will be tomorrow.
ADA Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 11:55 am
#176
I know all disclaimers but isnt GS attractive at around 100?
_________________________________________________
I would not buy GS at this time. IMO, this is payback for GS for all the people they have screwed over the years. The market is telling them in a very loud way to go find a commerical bank.
“The housing ATM and easy credit is what has caused the consumer to finally break their habits, not anything else. Well the whole country is screwed because we no longer manufacture anything, except for debt (at least we used to). Our economy is built on mass consumerism. When this breaks, the market breaks.”
I mostly agree with this, though I think you exaggerate the degree to which we “make” things. We still have a ton of manufacturing in this country if you stop and add it up.
Rubenstein (of Carlyle) was on TV this morning and he made a very interesting point. He said that the U.S. is going through 3 very difficult transitions simultaneously right now.
(1) is transition from growing to recessionary economy. (2) is transition from leveraged to de-leveraged economy (and consumer). (3) is transition to being a far less dominant national economy, which implies a permanent reduction in the standard of living of most Americans.
Any one of these things would be painful on its own, but suffering all 3 at the same time could be catastrophic. He didn’t say this, but you can look throughout history when nations go through trauma of this scale, the results are often not pretty (Hitler, Stalin, etc).
My point is that to the extent that we can manage this process so that it doesn’t happen over a matter of weeks or months, we will all be better off. It is inevitable to some degree, but there are better ways to take apart the Jenga tower than to simply allow it to collapse
This is one of the pitfalls of democracy. 95% of the population has no clue about how the economy works (let alone personal finance), and yet their votes count as much as the educated elite. Thus, much of the political back-and-forth devolves into name calling and slogans and bumper stickers. The vast majority of voters don’t and never will have a clue about what is going on on Wall St. right now. But that doesn’t keep them from opining on the impact that [Bush/Obama/McCain] has/will have on the economy.
Wells Fargo
“Wells Fargo’s (NYSE: WFC) mortgage business lost 4 percent market share annually between 2005 and 2007, Kovacevich said, adding that the bank missed out on $160 billion in fees in 2006 alone due to its decision to not offer risky mortgage products like the so-called option ARMs. The controversial mortgages are now creating huge headaches for rivals such as Wachovia (NYSE: WB) and Washington Mutual. (NYSE: WM)”
http://sanfrancisco.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/stories/2008/09/15/daily59.html?ana=yfcpc
The more I think about it, the more I think we are F’ed.
When BOA bought Bear, all we did was move the toxic waste to the national debt. Same will occur with the AIG package if the economy doesn’t recover quickly. So essentially, we are taking the bad decisions made by the IBs and the insurers and are transferring it into our national debt. Who are we helping here? You might see we have to do it to protect our markets from a plunge, but most people under 30 have little to nothing in the market. Who are we helping here?
#196
Kettle– do you really think Americans will accept such a drastic reduction in their standard of living if it happens quickly?
kettle [177],
Present day, paper money is not weighed down by anything intrinsic. It’s all fiat, created out of thin air. IMO, we are staring down the barrel of a hyper inflationary, severe recession/depression. The value of money will be decimated while the economy hits a brick wall. The world currencies will be racing each other to the bottom.
That said, deflation will also be apparent; falling incomes, credit constraints, loan defaults, etc.. It will turn out to be one hell of a battle, inflation vs deflation. How about both are winners?
hehehe #184,
grow your institution fast so that you get bailed out as “too big to fail”.
Does anyone really believethat WFC want Morgans junk on their balance sheet? You got a better chance of merging with Hudson City and having dinner with the pope.
[200]
STT down 25%. Maybe it hits 40 today.
Present day, paper money is not weighed down by anything intrinsic. It’s all fiat, created out of thin air. IMO, we are staring down the barrel of a hyper inflationary, severe recession/depression. The value of money will be decimated while the economy hits a brick wall. The world currencies will be racing each other to the bottom.
That said, deflation will also be apparent; falling incomes, credit constraints, loan defaults, etc.. It will turn out to be one hell of a battle, inflation vs deflation. How about both are winners?
I love it. Me and Kettle both Win. Everyone knows what I’m sitting on. Kettle assuming your portfolio is based on your deflationary theory then what do you like long term?
I take it the end of today’s rally represents a realization by folks that, not unlike RE, just because the prices came down, things are stilloverpriced giventhe current economic conditions and the prospects for future gains.
Another thing to consider is that we are a much bigger problem than Argentina or Ukraine was. If we go down, we bring the world with us. Who would be left to finance our recovery?
Skeptic, 196
I dont think they will have a choice in the matter. Our foreign creditors are quickly running out of both the will and the ability to continue supporting our “habit”.
Shell ( the oil Company) has also suggested that we may see resource wars in the next 10 years. wars are always convenient as a mas public distraction…..
#196 kettle:Shopping for the new lexus is not. The USA is about to see one b!tch of a reversion to mean.
Would returning to the kind of lifestyle we had growing up in the 70’s (my time) really be that horrific.
One modest/nice house, that you lived one paid for car, one maybe 2 TV’s, one big vacation a year?
We would still be living better than the over whelming amjority of the rest of the people on this planet
Nom Deplume,
Here’s my read on muni mkt. Usually in past, flight to quality meant munis gets some pop in price, since their almost as safe as treas, but better tax equiv yield. but NJ Muni’s are off now partly because recent auction rate debacle killed confidence in entire muni market and investors still feel burned. secondly, many issuers converting their variable rate munis to fixed rate becase of all the bank turbulance, flooding market with fixed rate munis. Also less firms on street equals more lack of liquidity and yields inching higher. Finally, NJ losing $50 million in Leh investment and thousands of jobs from wall street is not helping their credit.
Does anyone here have any insights into the commodity sell-off at CBOT? Soy, wheat, corn etc all down big. More deflation?
There is no time like an economic meltdown to do a kitchen remodel. Off to deliver a downpayment on the cabinets and marble. I hope they taste good.
Make,
I don’t know which ones underbelly looks worse, Wachovia has all those pick a pays about to hit.
“Would returning to the kind of lifestyle we had growing up in the 70’s (my time) really be that horrific.”
It would be horrific if we turned back to polyester, if formalwear means powder-blue tuxedos, and if disco re-emerges.
jcer: I’m not calling for Armageddon nor trying to cause fear. I think my problem is the peers I run with. I am very different than the lot here. I am a Montclair State College graduate. I have not taken a penny from mommy or daddy since I was 13. I was lucky enough to have parents who taught me how to save and invest and to do my own taxes. My peers, were not so lucky. They are cranking out kids and save nothing. Most owe more than I can fathom and are no more than 4 paychecks from being homeless. This is how the majority lives in this country. I drove forklifts and emptied trucks to pay for college. I did not take a single vacation for 7 years so I would not have to pay college loans. When Spring Break came, I would spend it in Raritan Center emptying trucks of groceries for Wakefern.
How the hell is any of what the government is doing helping me and my peers. We are not looking for handouts. We do not care about the brokers at Morgan and Lehman. We do not have significant money (well I do) in our 401ks. We are making our debt astronomically larger and more expensive to service making it that much harder on future generations to do as well. If the staunch (no entitlement) republicans think things are bad now with Welfare/Social Security/Healthcare. Just wait until unemployment worsens.
I kind of like where Kettle1 was coming from. Valuing family instead of Pokemon cards is something I look forward to. I just wonder if the wealthy can live without their Carreras.
Of course, we may be able to modify “Stay’n Alive” to “Bomb’n Iran”
“Uooh. Uooh. Uooh. Uooh, bomb’n Iran. Bomb’n Iran.”
RichNNJ,
Any info on recent sales in Hillsdale? Thanks in advance.
“I drove forklifts and emptied trucks to pay for college. I did not take a single vacation for 7 years so I would not have to pay college loans. When Spring Break came, I would spend it in Raritan Center emptying trucks of groceries for Wakefern.”
Stu,
You sound like my doppleganger.
Well, except for being a leftie, lol.
“Well, except for being a leftie, lol.”
Ha ha!
AIG just gt kicked out of the DOW and replaced with Kraft.
“Would returning to the kind of lifestyle we had growing up in the 70’s (my time) really be that horrific.”
3b,
It certainly would not be horrific if you could bring back Willis and Clyde to the Garden, in uniform. On the flip side, Saturday Night Fever? Ugh.
214 3B,
You mean no Lattes. $300 jeans, 50Inch Plasma’s, 5 Star Vacations, Granite Countertops, leasing new cars and SUV’s every three years, September School shoping that cost in Thousands, I-pods, I-phones, Unlimited Text messaging and cell phones for everyone in the household, Dining out 3-5 times a week, Dimonds, a new pair of shoes every week, Gucci, Prada, LV bags that cost thousands every couple of months, housekeeping, maids, $30 per car wash, Manicures, and pedicures weekly cause we work hard and deserve it, $100 per month Gym memberships that we never actually go to, nannies, we cant actually raise our own babies they vomit too many times, Seoason Tickets to all local professional teams, A convertible in the garage that you drive only during summer weekends,
Loosing all of this is a crisis and Un-American.
SKF nearing 150. damn. i had briefly considered bailing … and it wouldn’t surprise me if it touched 150 and a ton of folks cashed out and it went back to 135 by day’s end.
same deal friday … except it’ll touch 160. and then 170.
anyone else grappling with this decision?
72 clot..PIMCO is the biggest beggar of them all, one of the top three are on every day, several times a day…this morning’s quote “Paulson has to buy the MBS (mrotgage backed securities) and take the risk, he cannot wait until this is all over” McCulley on CNBC this morning
Would returning to the kind of lifestyle we had growing up in the 70’s (my time) really be that horrific.
Awwww yeah baby! The 70s comin’ bank. Cocaine, pornstaches & funk! Bring on da funk!
I’m changing my name Levon, or maybe Barry. Either way I need my $240 worth of puddin.
Like it or not the Millionaires Club in Power, regardless of Party affiliation, got that way, by screwing John Q Public. If you are looking for a Millionaire savior, don’t bother. Congress only represents their own interests, and the only party is “their” Party.
Stu– again, I think what is happening is like a contagious disease. At some point if enough people get it, it becomes everyone’s problem
The list is funny and sad at the same time. I am now nostalgic for the 70’s and having only one TV, one car, two new pair of shoes a year, Maxwell House coffee and a small ranch house.
I never once remember feeling deprived of anything growing up.
Ohhh! I have a comment in moderation, #230. That’s a first.
problem is that a good portion of the country (maybe even most) would be lucky to be as well off as they were in the 70s.
Who lit the fuse under the builders?
Going down hard.
Nice history of CDO’s originating with Drexel Burnham Lambert
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05/schoon073107.html
AIG just gt kicked out of the DOW and replaced with Kraft.
They should have replaced it with SKF…maybe we would see a positive day then
Good analogy, I certainly couldn’t be trusted;
One of the world’s top financial strategists predicted that today’s largely unregulated financial markets are going to come to an abrupt end. That self-regulation is no more possible with bankers seeking billions in bonuses than with teenagers seeking sex in the back seat of cars.
Confused,
Self regulation is buried. Leverage and capital requirements will be dictated by the new sheriff. One has to wonder, where are the engines of growth, WS, with structured finance/financial engineering blown out of the water. I wonder if the smart/elite will be flocking to WS looking for a job. I gues they can sit in Starbuck’s all day. OOPS, they are closing shop also.
Tomorrow is triple witching Friday. Oy vey!
Got gold?
Where’s bi?
from WSJ editorial page:
“We’re told Treasury has a proposal [for Resolution Trust Corp-type scheme] ready to send to Congress, but that the Members have told Mr. Paulson they don’t want to see it until after Election Day.”
if true this is amazingly irresponsible.
We actually have only 1 TV, sub 30″. It plays very little role in our lives. Wevalso make our own coffee (though we do have it shipped up from NOLA and brew it in a French Press). We are going for granite for the kitchen, although it is because it was .uch nicer looking than the alternatives and about the same cost (which blew my mind).
C is at $12.90. I suppose they are on deck.
We don’t even own a TV.
Replacing a company with cheesy accounting with a cheese company is just perfect.
AIG just gt kicked out of the DOW and replaced with Kraft
are there functional differences between the diff’t types of stone countertops?
#251
Area Man Constantly Mentioning He Doesn’t Own A Television
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694
BC.#246,
A ton of it.
BC Make$
I like cash during the deflationary phase with a little metal on the side and as the deflationary trend appears to switch over to inflation, go heavy on metals.
I also like certain energy sectors as well as various ‘necessities”. I expect to see short term negatives on these but long term gains.
You also have to realize that we are still using somewhat different definitions of deflation/inflation.
I use the terms strictly in the sense of total money supply. In these terms there is 0 inflation at the moment and 100% deflation. Consumer prices (i.e CPI) is a combination of strict inflation/deflation and supply/demand effects.
if i were to consider deflation in and inflation in CPI terms then i would agree with both of you. However, i feel that that definition is flawed when used at the macro level. to simplify i am in the Austrian economic camp.
Value is in Corrian Skep. Plus it won’t dull your knife and you can sand out scratches. If it must be stone, the Silestone is supposed to be the schiznit. Plenty of info on the different countertop materials on line.
#222 shore:It would be horrific if we turned back to polyester, if formalwear means powder-blue tuxedos, and if disco re-emerges.
Of course, but we could work on that.
Remember most people don’t own stock outside their 401ks. I am buying munis today, ten year munis at 5% is over 8% taxs equivalent. When I am at a party at best there are three or four people worried. The union folks with defined pensions are jumping for joy as when all the snot nosed 30 something wall street dinks lose their job they will actually be able to afford a good house and car. The haves are now the have nots.
BC, Make
when i say i am heavy cash, i am not talking about just US$$$. I hold a basket of currencies.
Stu,
C is at $12.90. I suppose they are on deck.
It’s a strugle and a race to who gets bailed out next. WaMu was the favorite but is now being threated by WB, with C and MS breathing down their neck.
Ben and Hank are saying ” no fighting enough freshly printed crisp dollar bills for everyone.”
Funny a guy near me does a big business is used grante countertops and used stainless steel kitchen appliances and even cherry cabinets, he gets then from people going under who sell them cheap before banks grabs house.
BC (179)-
“I would not be surprised if they were shorting their own stock.”
I just conjured up the image of some GS weasel on the prop trading desk, driving his own shop into the toilet.
Guarandamn-tee you that people in-house are short of GS.
Me too.
Commies;
LONDON (MarketWatch) — Britain’s Financial Services Authority on Thursday announced the unprecedented move of banning short-selling and forbidding any increase in new positions. Also, disclosure will be required on all positions of over 0.25% of a stock. The ban is due to remain in force until Jan. 16, 2009, but it will be reviewed in 30 days. “While we still regard short-selling as a legitimate investment technique in normal market conditions, the current extreme circumstances have given rise to disorderly markets. As a result, we have taken this decisive action, after careful consideration, to protect the fundamental integrity and quality of markets and to guard against further instability in the financial sector,” said Hecton Sants, chief executive of the FSA
#93 I doubt bush can even draw better than my 4 year old.
A while back I mentioned New York as a dying city and referred to Charlotte as south New York. (You can let the laughter out) BOA buying up Merill is the same as moving part of NY and NJ to Charlotte while retaining their presence in NY.
If your in finance you should wonder how big Charlotte is going to get when the economy begins to turn around.
It also means the biggest bank in America is no longer in New York its in Charlotte.
Reserve yours today
http://www.trumpcharlotte.com/
Kettle,
I giot you man. Where both in the Austrian camp. Bond market is the next bubble as FCB stop buying dollars and actually start selling them.
3b 217
we are not talking about 1970. We are talking about a significant shift in american lifestyle. As the financial crisis starts to settle down we are going to start seeing the energy crisis rear its head. The personal automobile long distance commute model (i.e interstate highway model courtesy of Eisenhower)is set to hit a bubble of sorts just like housing did in 2006. depending on how the financial crisis works out that bubble could peak around 2012 to 2015. the issue is not oil production but oil exports. look into the ELM (Export land Model)
re: #262 Pawn shops will be the next growth industry, and not ebay since people won’t be able to afford the $100 and change doled out monthy to cable and verizon for the triple service packages they have now.
#264
“Britain’s Financial Services Authority on Thursday announced the unprecedented move of banning short-selling and forbidding any increase in new positions.”
wow
264, BC,
You got to be kidding me. Another Pakistan?
How about we announce the elimination of short selling and come out with a surprise rate cut tomorrow around 8:00 AM, right before triple witching hour. Just sayin?
BklynHawk (171),
Sorry, I know nothing of Rutherford.
But I’m guessing someone will have an opinion.
NYtoNJ09 (225),
Jan 1 to Sep 17:
Year AvgList$ AvgSold$ Med$ #Sold #U/C
2004 $501,036 $495,080 $467,450 108 109
2005 $576,213 $572,341 $539,900 77 85
2006 $663,984 $635,697 $595,000 76 75
2007 $593,925 $559,721 $556,250 52 64
2008 $573,945 $535,579 $510,000 59 74
# Centaur Kid Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 11:44 am
#127 - Secondary
“It would be interesting to see some stats on the level of parental support out there. I am 31 and seems like a number of the people I went to college with are still getting some form of parental support almost 10 years after graduation, i.e. downpayment for house, vacations, paid for weddings, or “working” for a family business (in quotes because pops and/or granddad really run the show).”
I have said for 10 years now that most of Manhattan (and Brooklyn) is being floated by mom and dad out in the burbs. Everyone I know in their 30s and working glamorous jobs in publishing, fashion, entertainment are making very mediocre salaries yet can spend 20 per cocktail every other night.
HE (195)-
Because the handful of truly healthy banks out there don’t want to touch the failing shadow banks, at any price.
Better to let them bomb, BK out, then vulture the edible meat for pennies on the dollar.
ADA (198)-
Not when it will be worth about $2 in a couple of weeks.
Make,
as i said before another caveat is when the bond market appears to falter i will attempt to dump what US cash i have as quickly as possible. My goal is not to make money, but to maintain what i do have. Any net gains are just icing on the cake.
Skep:
Another thing to consider is that we are a much bigger problem than Argentina or Ukraine was. If we go down, we bring the world with us. Who would be left to finance our recovery?
#273 clot:Better to let them bomb, BK out, then vulture the edible meat for pennies on the dollar.
Sounds like a good plan for housing too.
oops
Skep:
Another thing to consider is that we are a much bigger problem than Argentina or Ukraine was. If we go down, we bring the world with us. Who would be left to finance our recovery?
That is pretty much my entire point. There is no escape route. This is a global event. there are no life boats left. Enjoy the band.
McCain is calling for Cox/SEC resignation, Bunning calling for Paulson/Bernanke resignation.
skep (205)-
“…but there are better ways to take apart the Jenga tower than to simply allow it to collapse”
Why? It is now an exposed and mostly-admitted fraud. Set it on fire and dynamite the footings.
The sooner we blow it out, the sooner things start to get better.
It’d be nice to see some frog walks and orange jumpsuits, too.
929903AD4 WACHOVIA CORP GLOBAL 3.625 02/17/09 46.873(M) 85.375
Wachovia bond at 47% interest.
anecdotal..
I was talking to a guy who bought a house in central NJ a month ago. He was saying how difficult his mortgage approval process was - the mortgage guys wanted letter upon letter for every transaction he made in his banking account. Plus he said anything less than a 720 credit score and a 20% down would mean you will not get approval.
And then, here’s the kicker - he says he made a good decision because NJ RE never goes down.
Go figure
Huge volatility in the indexes today. My ultra short went up and down 14% in a matter of minutes. Crazy.
laughy (232)-
No. Locked, loaded & got the fighter pilot face on.
wow, the press is really on top of Rangel now. wonder how long he will keep his committee chair
**********
WASHINGTON - Rep. Charles Rangel has been using a House of Representatives parking garage for years as free storage space for his old Mercedes-Benz - a violation of congressional rules and a potential new tax woe for the embattled lawmaker, The Post has learned.
The 1972 silver sedan is registered to Rangel, who is already under investigation by the House Ethics Committee, and is parked in a coveted section of an indoor lot, near elevators that lead to his office.
The car is covered with a protective tarp and has no license plates. Rangel’s registration on the vehicle expired in 2004, state records show.
House rules forbid use of the garage for long-term storage more than 45 days - and congressional aides told The Post that Rangel’s car has been sitting there for years.
…
A House Web site on parking regulations informs anyone with a space that, under IRS regulations, the benefit of the free parking is considered “imputed income” and must be declared to the government.
The spaces are valued by the House at $290 per month, the site says - about the monthly cost of leasing a space in a private DC-area garage.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09182008/news/regionalnews/big_wheel_benz_the_rules_129646.htm
hunter (233)-
Millionaires and billionaires, begging on TV all day and night.
It is beyond unseemly.
When do we get some perp walks?
C Dawg,
This is a very interesting debate and one that has been argued since Aristotle. Its seems that small groups ( i.e small nations) may be able to pull of an informed democracy but it seems to me that there is some size limit involved. Where if you grow a democracy beyond a certain population you end up with an intellectually disengaged population overall instead of the intellectually engaged population needed for healthy democracy.
# C Dawg Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
This is one of the pitfalls of democracy. 95% of the population has no clue about how the economy works (let alone personal finance), and yet their votes count as much as the educated elite. Thus, much of the political back-and-forth devolves into name calling and slogans and bumper stickers. The vast majority of voters don’t and never will have a clue about what is going on on Wall St. right now. But that doesn’t keep them from opining on the impact that [Bush/Obama/McCain] has/will have on the economy.
forget returning to the 70s. People today think it’s Armageddon if we return back to 2001.
It’s got to be the anti-shorting rule. Capitalism…taking the free out of free markets.
Cdawg 206
C Dawg,
This is a very interesting debate and one that has been argued since Aristotle. Its seems that small groups ( i.e small nations) may be able to pull of an informed democracy but it seems to me that there is some size limit involved. Where if you grow a democracy beyond a certain population you end up with an intellectually disengaged population overall instead of the intellectually engaged population needed for healthy democracy.
clot - funny, but it touched 153 and then dipped down to 140 immediately. lotta sellers (scared?) had the sell button in the 150s.
they’re just playing a game, huh?
cnbc a few minutes ago: “They’re talking rumors about gold reaching 1000, but that seems high.”
clowns.
/sort of obsessed with SKF
#268
you will see a flea market boom like we had in the early 90s. Also, less expensive hobbies such as collecting pop culture etc (all of that stuff has gone down in price because of the economy and ebay glut) will be the new recreation again (cheaper than vacation houses and boats). Like the early 90s, an underground market will come back.
This guy seem sto agree with Kettle and the defaltionary period that’s coming up.
nice little video
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=859580963&play=1
Skep
as clott 278 just pointe dout. If you line up all the IB CEO’s who have a large hand in this mess along with their politician enablers and do a orange jumpsuit perp walk through midtown, i suggest that we could restore significant confidence to the market!
Future of the internet and its roll in daily lives in light of the “new economy”?
Discuss.
Vix is over 40!
Taling heads and gubmints will tout the excellent move by GB to ban shorting as the market did a turnaround from down 100 to up 100 in a matter of few minutes.
“i suggest that we could restore significant confidence to the market!”
I disagree. As much as I would like to see it, it would not do one iota to stop the damage.
NEW YORK (MarketWatch) — Money market funds saw nearly $90 billion of net investor cash pulled out on Wednesday, among the largest single-day drops in history.
money market run?
Confused (241)-
Think Lou Ranieri is slamming a desk drawer onto his fingers right now?
make, skep,
To ChiFi’s point about sudden collapse being very bad with unexoected links between companies.
I agree with his points on those matters. My opinion from ther eis that we have to come down. Coming down to fast is very bad for everyone. but coing down to slow is bad for everyone as well. I would suggest that a hardline stance of letting failed companies fail , but actually supporting the dollar with immediate rate increases and real cuts in spending/debt reduction would allow a somewhat orderly deflation. This event is going to hurt everyone, its simply a question of magnitude and what is left standing in the end.
CORRECTION;
CORRECT: Britain bans short-selling of financial stocks
By Steve Goldstein
Last update: 1:47 p.m. EDT Sept. 18, 2008Comments: 81
LONDON (MarketWatch) — Britain’s Financial Services Authority on Thursday banned short-selling of financial stocks and prohibited any increase in new bearish positions in the sector. Also, disclosure will be required on all positions of more than 0.25% of a stock. The regulator said it may extend the bank to other sectors. The ban is due to remain in force until Jan. 16, but it will be reviewed in 30 days. “While we still regard short-selling as a legitimate investment technique in normal market conditions, the current extreme circumstances have given rise to disorderly markets. As a result, we have taken this decisive action, after careful consideration, to protect the fundamental integrity and quality of markets and to guard against further instability in the financial sector,” said Hector Sants, chief executive of the FSA.
Keetle1 for prez.
1970’s, try 1930’s. City living will be back, small cramped spaces, conveniences will be less and less and hopefully, just hopefully we can be as strong as our grandparents were. Just talking to my grandmothers who were 8 years old when the market crashed and grew up in the depression just gives you a good idea of how much tougher they are than us. They save everything, and spend nothing, they are used to working, when my grandmother hit 80 and could not get a job after getting fired from the mall information desk it drove her crazy. She still drives a car from 1990, 18 years ago, and owns the furniture she purchase when my grandfather returned for WWII. Funny thing is any time she replaces relics from the 50’s she complains that the new one is junk, well it is cheap chinese junk. When she and my grandfather married they moved out of the tenements on the LES and moved to a home today we would call modest that was close to work. My other grandparents lived in Jersey City and only really moved to suburbia when my mother was school age and even then they moved to a very modest home close by. People of that era lived a simpler and besides severely curtailed lifetimes for the men of that era it was happy. If I asked them about the depression they would say it was horrible people were in bad shape but we had food and a roof and we were happy. I could only imagine my generation in that situation. I don’t know Stu, the people who I know are more representative of this board in that they make decent salaries and really don’t spend like crazy, the word cheap is used to describe them frequently. But I do have other friends who are perennially unemployed, up to their eyeballs in debt with no intention of changing, thankfully they are not married otherwise moving back in with the folks is not a good option.
[268]
Craigslist, baby!!!
laughy (288)-
Don’t watch the feebs on CNBC. It’ll knock you off your game.
Stu,
I thought you were backing the Nom/Gator ticket???
Now you, who won’t vote McCain for his hawkishness, backs the 2nd biggest hawk on this board??? (RE is probably first, since he would nuke Spain).
I’m hurt, hurt. Now the press will have a field day with StuGate.
kettle [298],
Are you drinking vodka? Rate increases, spending cuts and debt reduction? Not a chance in hell. They will inject and pump/pump/pump. Bergabe has a deflation brain cramp. He has studied his whole life on this one subject, not a chance while he’s still at the helm.
Chez moi, once Becky goes off the air, CNBC goes off.
arrgh 304 in mod! Damn fingers–faster than my mind.
293
ermmmm, role…even.
gah……
jcer[301],
Carbon copies of my grandparents.
Keetle1 for prez.
not a good idea. Grim will stop him from posting and put his name in a filter so that Bi can’t keep talking about him.
True. Where is Bi?
True. Where is Bi?
He got a Margin call.
My favorite recession business is a guy on Long Island sells used kitchens. He gets 1-5 year old beautiful granite counters, viking stoves and jumbo stainless steel fridges and cherry cabinets from homeowners about to go bankrupt. The owners for cents on a dollar sell their kitchens before the bank takes them back. Then the guy has some mexicans off the books take the kitchens out and then people buy them for like 40 to 50 cents on a dollar and his $100 a day mexicans put them back in homeowners who want new kitchens but no longer have big home equitity lines. It is a perfect business model. Someone should do it in Jersey.
BC Bob
Are you drinking vodka? Rate increases, spending cuts and debt reduction? Not a chance in hell. They will inject and pump/pump/pump. Bergabe has a deflation brain cramp. He has studied his whole life on this one subject, not a chance while he’s still at the helm.
to the first question…. YES, what made you think that?
secondly: Deflation will happen regardless of what bernanke does. That is the great irony in all of this. The master student of historical deflation will now reside over the greatest monetary deflation in US history!
his only other option is to collapse the bond markets and kill the US dollar. If there is no dollar, then you cannot deflate it. The rest button and a new currency is the only non-deflation option on the table for bergabe!
stu,
thanks for the vote of confidence. But i would never make it. I havent the tolerance for being a corporate lap dog.
jcer(301): “Carbon copies of my grandparents.”
No, carbon copies of all of our grandparents. There really wasn’t any alternative. When I went with Gator to help her clean out her grandparents place after she was moved into a care facility, we happened upon her ration coupon booklets from WWII. We’re pretty certain that she was saving them so she could have seconds during WWIII.
My grandmother still has plastic covers on her couches. She is in her mid 80’s. I asked her who she is saving them for. She laughed and said me. Anyone want a set of lime green couches from 1952 in perfect condition?
kettle [317],
That may very well be true. Not as a result of raising rates, spending cuts, etc… The world’s cb’s are flooding the system with paper. The treasury is selling t bills to bolster the fed’s balance sheet. All pistons are firing.
I do agree, you can’t force more s#it into an overloaded tank. That’s their major mistake. Let the system crumble and build back, we’ll be better off in the long run.
Putnam closed their main MM fund today.
#104
That’s A LOT of paneling for $380,000.
Mellon Bank broke the buck.
deflation will occur simultaneously with inflation. We will all have millions of dollars but we’ll all be able to afford less gas, food, and clothing. The thing about hyperinflation is, all these people who overpaid for a house in 2005 and continue to make those payments, they’ll be paying off that 30 year fixed with pocket change in 10 years. Everyone who sold in 2005 got their money. The government is doing their best to make sure that everyone who bought in 2005 makes their money as well. It’s sad when the most profitable play in America may still end up being buying real estate with no money down.
#31
how come pos were a minimum of 500k? Why are there so many luxury cars? I can only think that people think a combination of higher income and low interest rates = wealth.
I’ve said this before. There are plenty of people that live here that make just enough money to live this life style. One trip up and their screwed though. They love showing off that false view of weatlh though.
#301
“Coming down to fast is very bad for everyone. but coing down to slow is bad for everyone as well. I would suggest that a hardline stance of letting failed companies fail , but actually supporting the dollar with immediate rate increases and real cuts in spending/debt reduction would allow a somewhat orderly deflation. This event is going to hurt everyone, its simply a question of magnitude and what is left standing in the end.”
this makes sense. to add another in the endless string of metaphors, it is like detox: too fast and you kill the patient; too slow and he remains an addict
“McCain is calling for Cox/SEC resignation, Bunning calling for Paulson/Bernanke resignation.”
And Clot is calling for the firing squad?
another thing: when you let companies fail (and individuals), you must have a process for an orderly liquidation of assets / resolution of debts. otherwise, everyone will needlessly suffer
“M is calling for Cox/SEC resignation, Bunning calling for Paulson/Bernanke resignation.”
And Clot is calling for the firing squad?
“everyone will needlessly suffer”
Sounds like the plot of ever pre-revolutionary Russian novel.
Can we replace Cox with Niki Cox? She is also an idiot but at least she is smoking hot.
My work takes me out of the tri-state area every few weeks and into heartland America; the kind of place Mellencamp writes songs about. It does wonders for putting things in perspective.
Out in what we would refer to as Podunk, people would laugh at threads like this. See, they always keep most of their assets in cash and metals because they haven’t trusted the US government or our financial system in forever. Sure, they drive 4×4s but they live 5 miles or less from work. They already have shotguns on hand to protect their assets stored in the safe so no need to run out and purchase. They can’t get much more for their house than the amount they paid for it 20 years ago and don’t expect that they ever will. Their kids go to the same grade and high schools that their parents went to. New York is a nice place to visit just to see whats going on but there is no place like home. Their only investments in the stock market are through their 401ks and since those statements only come once a quarter, thats how often they look at their performance.
While everyone here is worried about preparing for Armageddon, out there they are born prepared for it.
I am asked to relocate every time I go out there and maybe I will start considering it. I never did like the McMansion style of living anyway and those square donuts sure are tasty.
“Value is in Corrian Skep. Plus it won’t dull your knife and you can sand out scratches. If it must be stone, the Silestone is supposed to be the schiznit. Plenty of info on the different countertop materials on line.”
I went into the process thinking Corian. But not for the knife dulling, as one should use a cutting board anyway.
When we started looking at the prices of Corian, the price was the same as the Silestone and, as I bake and make dough, having a stone-like surface got my attention, as the dough will not stick to it. Cool I thought. Then, for kicks, we looked at Granite. We found some kick-@ss stone that is so good looking it should be classified as counter p0rn; it is just amazingly good looking. The kicker, on an $80,000.00+ job,it adds less than $1,000. to the cost. Given the choice between nice and knockout, the cost difference was not a factor.
My favorite recession business is a guy on Long Island sells used kitchens. He gets 1-5 year old beautiful granite counters, viking stoves and jumbo stainless steel fridges and cherry cabinets from homeowners about to go bankrupt. The owners for cents on a dollar sell their kitchens before the bank takes them back. Then the guy has some mexicans off the books take the kitchens out and then people buy them for like 40 to 50 cents on a dollar and his $100 a day mexicans put them back in homeowners who want new kitchens but no longer have big home equitity lines. It is a perfect business model. Someone should do it in Jersey.
you got a name or a number, I need a bunch of kitchens for my new rental building.
Not to worry, The Messiah has indicated he will address the current crisis with “American Insurance Group” (not to be confused with Hank Greenberg’s AIG).
Hope! Change!
“I join as a cosponsor of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, S. 190, to underscore my support for quick passage of GSE regulatory reform legislation. If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.”
John McCain, May 25, 2006
if somone puts me on the ticket for Prez, i promise to put john in charge of the FCC
ben: you are confusing terms. You cannot have hyper inflation and deflation at the same time, anymore then gravity pulls you upwards.
You are mixing up the austrian terms deflation inflation based on change sin total money supply, M3) with the Keynesian terms of Inflation /deflation which is based on CPI.
You cannot meaningfully mix and match the 2 different definitions.
“I join as a cosponsor of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005, S. 190, to underscore my support for quick passage of GSE regulatory reform legislation. If Congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system, and the economy as a whole.”
Mr. M, May 25, 2006
The act would have done the following:
(1) in lieu of the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight of the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), an independent Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Agency which shall have authority over the Federal Home Loan Bank Finance Corporation, the Federal Home Loan Banks, the Federal National Mortgage Association (Fannie Mae), and the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corporation (Freddie Mac); and (2) the Federal Housing Enterprise Board.
Sets forth operating, administrative, and regulatory provisions of the Agency, including provisions respecting: (1) assessment authority; (2) authority to limit nonmission-related assets; (3) minimum and critical capital levels; (4) risk-based capital test; (5) capital classifications and undercapitalized enterprises; (6) enforcement actions and penalties; (7) golden parachutes; and (8) reporting.
About the Putnam fund closing, excerpted from a longer statement:
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/putnam-announces-fund-closing-distribution/story.aspx?guid=%7B885D74ED-C8EF-48D2-B55E-0FA143C0272A%7D&dist=hppr
“The Trustees’ action was not related to the portfolio’s credit quality, but was instead a reaction to marketwide liquidity issues. The fund, like Putnam’s other money market funds, has no exposure to securities of Lehman Brothers, Washington Mutual or AIG at the parent-company level. The fund’s net asset value calculated on September 16, 2008 was $1.00 per share. On September 17, the fund experienced significant redemption pressure. Serious constraints on liquidity in money market instruments created the risk that in order to process redemptions, the fund would realize losses in selling its portfolio securities. In the face of these challenges, the Trustees determined to close the fund to ensure equitable treatment of all fund shareholders. Putnam and the Trustees believe that this action is in the best interests of shareholders because it ensures an orderly distribution of assets in light of the current unusual market conditions and treats all shareholders in an equitable manner. “
Who else moved short-term money out of MM this week?
The banks are insolvent, they are bankrupt. Sooner or later they will go the way of the pterodactyl, unable to pay back the credit they now receive, for which the central banks accept ever more worthless toilet paper as collateral. Sooner or later the FEd and the ECB will be the proud owners of the vast majority of the world’s dirty stinking Kleenex.
And then the central bank will turn to the Treasury, and the Treasury will fork over. You know what the Treasury will give them? Your money, that’s what. So you will be paying through the nose for paper that your central banks and Treasuries have acquired from banks, knowing full well that it wasn’t worth even a fraction of what they’re giving the banks in exchange. But they will keep insisting that the markets will rise again, and the paper will regain its value. And the citizens of the countries they reside in, the very people who are duped and cheated out of their money wherever they look, will keep on believing them.
Comics: Speed Bump
Some randon thoughts while waiting for the world as we know it to end:
1. My father came of age during the Great Depression - he told me cash was king. I hope he’s right.
2. Fidelity told me its MM fund was safe. I hope they’re right.
3. According to Meredith Whitney, housing will fall 45% peak to trough - I hope she’s right.
4. World governments want me to believe they have everything under control - I hope they’re right.
5. According to CNBC, the failure of every IB, and potential failure of thousands of commercial and retail banks and credit unions is no big thing. What we should be focused on is the S&P is at 12 times earnings and now is a great time to buy. I hope, aw hell…
Unfortunately, my gut tells me we are witnessing a once in a life-time “fall of the Berlin Wall” type of historical world-changing event unfold before our eyes and the media wants me to believe what’s important is whether a Repubicrat or a Democran will make it into the White House. Perspective people…
I wonder if money market funds will suffer the same fate as men’s undershirts after Gable was seen not wearing one in It Happened One Night (Which could be FedCo’s motto)
Several money market funds are losing money as the $3.5 trillion sector that long had been considered as safe as cash is buffeted by the turmoil on Wall Street.
Separately, four mutual fund firms are taking extraordinary steps to calm investor fears and protect customer investments. The companies - Wachovia Corp.’s Evergreen Investments, Bank of America Corp.’s Columbia funds, Ameriprise Financial, and Frank Russell Funds - said they had either injected millions of dollars to shore up their money market funds or were ready to do so. More companies are expected to make similar moves in coming days to compensate for losses from fund investments in the securities of Lehman Brothers Inc. after the financial behemoth filed for bankruptcy protection this week.
The Reserve Primary Fund, a pioneer of money market funds, was the first this week to announce it had reduced the value of its shares to below $1. The fund cut its share value by 3 cents to 97 cents, which means a loss for investors, unthinkable for funds that were long regarded as safe havens. Only once before, in 1994, did a money market fund “break the buck,” as the industry calls it.
The Reserve, which runs the fund, then announced two more of its funds were also losing money. One more fund, the Colorado Diversified Trust, which holds investments for schools and government in that state, also saw the value of its assets fall below $1 a share, according to the rating service Standard & Poor’s.
Of the four, only Reserve Primary is a traditional money market fund. For example, one of the Reserve funds is an “enhanced-cash” product, which can make riskier investments.
“This is the real human cost of allowing Lehman to fail. There’s a ripple effect,” said Don Phillips, managing director of Morningstar Inc., the Chicago mutual fund tracking firm.
Although money funds are not insured by the federal government as bank deposits are, investment analysts and fund companies said there is no need for worry. “I’m certainly not thinking I need to move my money out of a money market fund and into a mattress,” said Phillips.
Wall Street investors have pumped a record $1 trillion into money funds since the summer of 2007, following a collapse of the subprime mortgage market and a slowdown in housing. The bankruptcy filing from Lehman, which had an enormous portfolio of securities backed by subprime loans, was one in a series of financial upheavals this week that included an $85 billion government bailout of insurance giant American International Group and yesterday’s 449-point stock market plunge.
But some ordinary investors, who have watched some of the nation’s largest financial institutions fall like dominoes, were terrified.
“It’s Armageddon,” said Gokmen Kilincarslan of Westport. The 27-year-old said he transferred money from his money market account to a bank savings account yesterday. His money is now “safer,” he said, “but I still don’t feel confident.”
Fund companies, including Fidelity Investments in Boston, the nation’s largest, offered reassuring statements to investors. “We can state unequivocally that Fidelity’s money market funds and accounts continue to provide safety and security for our customers’ cash investments,” said a statement on Fidelity’s website.
Standard & Poor’s, which rates the financial soundness of 500 money market funds in the United States and Europe, said the actual damage from Lehman’s bankruptcy is limited. The company lowered its ratings for just three funds this week: Reserve Primary Fund, Reserve International Liquidity Fund, and Colorado Diversified Trust. Other funds either did not invest in Lehman or made only overnight loans to the investment bank, which have already been paid back, said Peter Rizzo, senior director at Standard & Poor’s.
“This is only the second time in the last 35 years that a fund had this kind of problem,” he said. Rizzo also said none of the tracked money funds hold securities in troubled mortgage company Washington Mutual, which placed itself on the auction block after its value plummeted. Analysts were still looking into whether any tracked funds were at risk from investments in AIG, Rizzo said.
Today, most Americans who invest have some money in money market funds, either as part of their mutual fund portfolios or in their 401(k) retirement accounts. There are 33 million retail money market accounts in the United States, in three forms: those that invest in tax-exempt municipal bonds, in US Treasury securities, or in corporate bonds.
http://www.boston.com/business/markets/articles/2008/09/18/money_market_funds_battered/?page=full
[snip]
“4. World governments want me to believe they have everything under control”
[DL],
You’ll be put on the disabled list if you buy into that.
The view from Kuwait:
http://www.arabtimesonline.com/client/pagesdetails.asp?nid=22394&ccid=9
All of this, the trillions in taxpayer money hand-outs as well as the law breaking, is presented as necessary to “save the system”. But that’s a fraudulent claim: the system cannot be saved, the system is bankrupt, as are the banks and the US government.
What the actions achieve is a few days or weeks of additional time to fleece the taxpayers out of an additonal part of the already sorrowfully meagre remnants of what was once rightfully seen as their wealth. And those same taxpayers are not going to clue in before they’ve lost it all: the entire criminal enterprise is presented as protection of the taxpayers, and they all swallow it hook, line and stinker.
Oh, and BTW, German news reporting the errant transfer from a state run bank to Lehman’s is now up to 350M euros.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=aVPBaUbYV_qQ
Democratic Congress May Adjourn, Leave Crisis to Fed, Treasury
By Kristin Jensen
Sept. 18 (Bloomberg) — The Democratic-controlled Congress, acknowledging that it isn’t equipped to lead the way to a solution for the financial crisis and can’t agree on a path to follow, is likely to just get out of the way.
Lawmakers say they are unlikely to take action before, or to delay, their planned adjournments — Sept. 26 for the House of Representatives, a week later for the Senate. While they haven’t ruled out returning after the Nov. 4 elections, they would rather wait until next year unless Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke, who are leading efforts to contain the crisis, call for help.
One reason, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said yesterday, is that “no one knows what to do” at the moment.
for clott and Nom
http://grizzlypistol.blogspot.com/
kettle, all our houses will be worth a million dollars, and the dollar will be worthless. That’s deflation in real terms.
Why did my last post at 349 come up as guy Fawkes? Does that mean we are posting from the same IP? the same company?
“Oh, and BTW, German news reporting the errant transfer from a state run bank to Lehman’s is now up to 350M euros.”
I MUST send that bank my account and routing numbers.
ben,
worng, deflation means your house is worth 50K but you still owe the 500K debt on it and make 20K/yr
Comics: Non Sequitur
It’s the end of the world as we know it, but I feel fine.
Whar really sucks right now is that with the banking and investment sectors so messed up, this is the perfect conditions for putting money into farmland, rental units, etc. But, with RE overpriced and heading south, this is not a good time to put money into RE.
I know prices will continue dropping but our one year old is climbing the walls of our small rented condo and we need a house NOW. Besides our 20% downpayment is sitting in banks FDIC of course but we are still worried we’ll lose it all somehow. I am trying to make an offer on a short sale and wondering what some of you think so please offer your two cents. Its in Robbinsville, Mercer County, Central NJ, solid school district, similar to cranford or maybe river edge. Sold for 280 in July 2001. They have not really upgraded the place but the nighborhood is strong. If I paid $300 for it, would i have overpaid? If so, where is the price going over next two years in your opinion. Thanks in advance for any feedback.
I go get another cup of coffee and suddenly the Dow is up 200+. I guess the economy is fixed.
CNBC is reporting Paulson is considering RTC2.0.
Raly rally rally !
Senator Schumer is proposing a Trillion Dollar RTC where the Tax Payer will take on all the Toxic Mortgage Debt. Evidently the Democrats are vying with the Republicans for the Icarus Award.
Veto,
They bought in 2001. Have they replaced appliances, roof, HVAC systems, etc? Have they painted or made improvements? If not, you will be doing these things soon enough. I suspect Clot et. al can offer you solid advice, but you will need to give them more to work with.
“Trillion Dollar RTC ”
I vote for starting the funding with congressional pensions. Since it is time for all american’s to feel some pain, lets start with Chuck’s senate pension, and Charlie — what is imputed income — Rangle’s house pension.
Greedy instutions made the loans, and greedy or stupid people signed up for the loans. The prudent should not need to pay for this.
kettle, in my mind, deflation of housing means your house is worth 100 oz. of gold instead of 200 oz. of gold. I don’t care what the dollar price is. They can do whatever they want to the nominal value (dollar price), it’s not going to stop the deflating value of homes. You are talking in terms of dollars, I’m talking in terms of purchasing power.
Been saying it for a long time, the 2008/2009 version, RBC, Resolution Bust Corp, will make the RTC look like chicken feed.
3:05 Tues - rumor GS & JP to bail AIG - Rally!
4:00 Wed - Fail
3:05 Thurs - rumor Paulson to revive RTC - Rally!
4:00 Fri - ….
Paulson has no idea of what subtlety in market manipulation is, does he?
362.Shore Guy Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
“Trillion Dollar RTC ”
I vote for starting the funding with congressional pensions. Since it is time for all american’s to feel some pain, lets start with Chuck’s senate pension, and Charlie — what is imputed income — Rangle’s house pension.
Greedy instutions made the loans, and greedy or stupid people signed up for the loans. The prudent should not need to pay for this.
A retroactive appropriation of the last eight years profits might be a good starting point.
Willy Sutton, when asked why he robbed Banks, said, because that’s where the money is.
Likewise, on a bipartisan basis, we should the fund the trust with Bush/Clinton/Schumer/Cheney/Kennedy/etal money, because that’s where the money is.
anybody got a set for skf
Old plan: return to NJ in Dec 09, rent until we found a place to buy, put down 2/3rds in cash, finance the rest, spend my summers at the shore, my winters in Florida, and my weekends in NYC.
New plan: there is no plan; and it just might work.
Can someone shut that Chuck up already!
Tosh,
it is like watching someone learn to drive a standard-shift car.
This $T “facility,” until the books are closed, does it show up as an addition to our national debt or is it, and seemingly every other debt now hidden away and we just pretend it does not exist?
ben[363],
Correct.
Deflation is measured regarding purchasing power, goods and services, not asset values. If health care costs drop 15%, legal/accounting services drop 10%, incomes drop 10%, etc.., there’s deflation. A declining stock market does not guarantee deflation, although other factors may be apparent. Is a bull market, rising prices, automatically joined at the hip with inflation? No.
Trillion may not be enough when the Alt A arms start going south.
It’ll pick up the piggy backs and subprime.
Let me tell you my Andrew Cumo story, since I have one. When my sister had her sweet 16 at my Mom’s house (my Mom was already a widow and we could not afford to have it out) my sister invited Andrew as he was a friend of a friend. We lived near the Queens border and Andrew was from either Jamica Estate or Douglaston. Can’t remember which. Well Andrew at 16 showed up in a sports coat dressed very nice to my Mom’s little 40×100 colonial. Well half way through the party Andrew asks to speak to my Mother alone in the kitchen and tells my Mother he has something to tell her in private and she has to keep it a secret, he leans forward and whispers to my Mother that my Mom’s ziti is better than Matildas ziti (which was his Mother). My Mom was thrilled beyond belief that the Governor of New York son told her that her ziti was better than than the first ladies of New York’s Ziti. I said to my Mom one day that guy is going to be an extremely powerful political figure as I was so impressed with how 16 year old Andrew worked the room.
Sept. 18 (Bloomberg) — New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo is investigating short sellers of Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., American International Group Inc. and other financial companies to see if investors spread false information to drive down stock prices.
Cuomo said he would also examine trades of Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs Group Inc., which have been targets of short sales this week.
To whom does out Treasury Secretary propose to sell those bad debts he proposes buying from troubled banks?
How does he propose recovering the full value of those bad debts?
If he takes the bad debts that arose from foolishly-granted loans in the first place, how does this discourage bad decision making and recklessness in the future?
It is on Lawson Blvd in Oceanside, busy road as it connects East Rock and RVC with Island Park and Long Beach. I am actually going to Jordans Lobster farm tonight as it is my wifes Bday and I am driving by so I will get the number tonight
make money Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
My favorite recession business is a guy on Long Island sells used kitchens. He gets 1-5 year old beautiful granite counters, viking stoves and jumbo stainless steel fridges and cherry cabinets from homeowners about to go bankrupt. The owners for cents on a dollar sell their kitchens before the bank takes them back. Then the guy has some mexicans off the books take the kitchens out and then people buy them for like 40 to 50 cents on a dollar and his $100 a day mexicans put them back in homeowners who want new kitchens but no longer have big home equitity lines. It is a perfect business model. Someone should do it in Jersey.
you got a name or a number, I need a bunch of kitchens for my new rental building.
MM:
I too haven’t forgotten about the Option Arms. Take whatever DEBT the government has already offered and double it. Increase unemployment and inflation and you might as well triple it.
Goodbye consumer.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/11/real_estate/bottoms_coming_up/index.htm
Brand new, CNN, RE will bottom next summer.
Shore:
“If he takes the bad debts that arose from foolishly-granted loans in the first place, how does this discourage bad decision making and recklessness in the future?”
It doesn’t matter. You are not part of the group the government is trying to protect. Don’t think for a minute that you are.
With tax rates where they are, the debt is going to kill everyone but the wealthy. Trust me, they can afford the hit. You and I can’t. They know exactly what they are doing!
I am truly disgusted by how this is all playing out.
just bought the skf
Are they (CNN article) f*cking kidding me or what? When do we get the f*cking decline here? Right, North Jersey is not exempt, huh? Bullsh*t! Rich in NNJ posted some sales prices earlier today for Hillsdale and they are basically the same as 2005. They didn’t go up but they hardly decreased either. And just as I said, we will not see this dream scenario where prices drop here 25% or better. It’s been flat for a couple of years just like I said it would be.
Gary,
Buy SKF :P
375
Thanks John. It’ll come in handy.
Make Money, by any chance do you own buildings in JC?
Stu,
That ship has left. It’s time to look for the next swindle.
#380 gary: And what exactly do you think will prevent them from dropping?
Even with all that has transpired, you still remain unconvinced?
MJ Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 10:55 am
@shore guy: Perhaps the victim was just trying to snap a better picture than the best picture ever:
MJ: I thought this was the best picture ever?
http://www.prosportsmemorabilia.com/John-Starks-New-York-Knicks-The-Dunk-Close-up-16×20-Autographed-Photograph_-321904310_PD.html?yssp=PLP
380 - Gary
Since you own a house, why not try and list it at 2005 prices and see if you get any bites?
OR
accept the fact that prices are not going to fall and buy one right now before you get priced out again.
I call bs on Hank’s plan. More bs to manipulate the markets and get the brain dead at CNBC to start babbling.
#346
so you think the proper course of action is to let the entire banking system collapse overnight?
3b,
The CNN article has a bunch of people calling bottom in summer of 2009. Well, if we’re going to get catch up to the rest of the country, we better get a move on because time is a tickin’. And like I said, all these comp killers I see posted here show flat to little decline from peak. One or two stick out but all in all, the prices have remained flat. So, when do we go off the cliff in NNJ?
“so you think the proper course of action is to let the entire banking system collapse overnight?”
fractional banking….yes.
SAS
Victorian,
This winter we make the move. My house gets listed accordingly, depending on whether prices stay where they are or drop off a cliff. It’s the purchase price I’m fighting with, not my own sale price.
Shore Guy Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 10:58 am
Some of the best choreography of all time….
…although you really have to wait for minute 4:00 when Garrett brings it home…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dukmp4v9ZiU
Not sure if this was posted yesterday…
OPINION SEPTEMBER 17, 2008
Resurrect the Resolution Trust Corp.
By NICHOLAS F. BRADY, EUGENE A. LUDWIG and PAUL A. VOLCKER
We are in the midst of the worst financial turmoil since the Great Depression. Absent bold action, matters could well get worse.
Neither the markets nor the ordinary diet of regulatory orders, bank examinations, rating downgrades and investigations can do the job. Extraordinary emergency actions by the Federal Reserve and the Treasury to date, while necessary, are also insufficient to resolve the crisis.
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the giants in the mortgage market, are overextended and now under new government protection. They are not in sufficiently robust shape to meet all the market’s needs.
The fact is that the financial system needs basic, long-term reform, but right now the system is clogged with enormous amounts of toxic real-estate paper that will not repay according to its terms. This paper, in turn, is unable to support huge quantities of structured financial instruments, levered as much as 30 times.
Until there is a new mechanism in place to remove this decaying tissue from the system, the infection will spread, confidence will deteriorate further, and we will have to live through the mother of all credit contractions. This contraction will undercut the financial system, and with it, the broader economy that so far has held up reasonably well.
There is something we can do to resolve the problem. We should move decisively to create a new, temporary resolution mechanism. There are precedents — such as the Resolution Trust Corporation of the late 1980s and early 1990s, as well as the Home Owners Loan Corporation of the 1930s. This new governmental body would be able to buy up the troubled paper at fair market values, where possible keeping people in their homes and businesses operating. Like the RTC, this mechanism should have a limited life and be run by nonpartisan professional management.
Such a stabilizing mechanism would accomplish four much-needed tasks:
- First, by buying paper that otherwise is effectively not trading, it would help restore liquidity to the marketplace and help markets to function more fluidly again.
- Second, by warehousing the troubled paper for a longer period than, for instance, the Fed’s discount window typically should or could, it would allow for a more orderly liquidation of this paper, and the chance for much of it to recover a portion of its value.
- Third, by giving the agency the ability to manage mortgages with flexibility to keep people in their homes and businesses running, it should lessen the number of foreclosures. This, in turn, would help moderate the decline in real estate values and the deterioration of neighborhoods, thus supporting house prices that in fact lie at the heart of the crisis.
- Fourth, where necessary, like the RTC of the 1980s, this new mechanism can assist the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation in resolving sick institutions that are so clogged with the troubled paper they cannot continue as independent entities. However, we would hope that purchasing the mortgage-related paper will minimize the need to provide emergency, short-term assistance to solvent banking institutions.
It is certainly the case that the new institution we are proposing will in the short run require serious money. That will involve a risk to the taxpayer; but the institution, administered by professionals, means that ultimate gains to the taxpayer are also possible.
Moreover, a failure to act boldly in the fashion we are suggesting would cost the taxpayer and the country far more. The pathology of this crisis is that unless you get ahead of it and deal with it from strength, it devours the weakest link in the chain and then moves on to devour the next weakest link. A deteriorating financial system, diminished economic activity, loss of jobs and loss of revenues to the government is enormously costly. And the cost to our citizens’ well-being is incalculable.
Crisis times require stern measures. America has done well in the past to face up to economic turmoil, take strong measures, and put our problems behind us. RTC-like mechanisms have worked well in past crises. Now is the time to take a similarly forceful step.
The American economy still has enormous underlying strengths. What we need, and in part are proposing, is a road map to financial stability.
Mr. Brady was U.S. Treasury secretary from 1988-1993. Mr. Ludwig was U.S. comptroller of the currency from 1993 to 1998. Mr. Volcker was chairman of the Federal Reserve from 1979-1987.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122161086005145779.html
Questions for our Finance folks.
It seems to me the market rally’s and falls have been going on continually since last year,is’nt this just smart moneyed folks jumping in and out?
Everyday the headline’s are basiclly the same MARKET FALLS ON FEARS OF_______ - MARKET RISES ON HOPES OF _______
So there is no real gains here just buyers and sellers making some bucks from buying and selling?
Am I far off?
Thanks
KL
If the people who made the toxic loans, who acted imprudently, who .made a bundle in the process should have to return their gains before being let off the hook.
This new RTC is bull*hit and will just saddle our kids with more debt.
This is the White House number: (202) 456-1414.
If you thimk this is a bad idea give them a call. I am going to call and call for Paulson’s termination.
#392
“fractional banking….yes.”
what other kind of banking is there?
what was that thing clot wrote about Dow single day gains during a bear market?
Does today qualify?
sl
#390 gary: I think we are already going off the cliff, and will continue to into 2009. No bottom in prices by 2009.
We still have the credit crisis, recession, massive Wall St layoffs mostly in our NYC metro area lenders requiring 700+ FICO scores and downpayments, and on and on.
Perhaps in some areas where prices have dropped 30% or more, prices may bottom by 2009 but than again refer back to the above items I listed.
And if all of this does not bring prices down substanially, than nothing will. Real estate does not operate in a seperate universe.
The proverbial POS cape was not worth 500k in 2003,04,05, and it is certainly not worth it today.
And if by some bizzare miracle I am wrong, than guess what they can keep their 500k POS, it is just not worth it,and I will not pay it, and life will go on.
But I know that will not be the case. They decliend dramatically before, they are and will decline again, all the more reason that they will declin more now than in the last housing bust. Simple as that IMO.
#394thus supporting house prices that in fact lie at the heart of the crisis.
I would argue that the enormous increase in house prices lies at the heart of the crisis.
Gary, who’s their source? Barbara Corcoran? Some of the talking heads on tv or homebuilders who have been calling bottom for over two years. Wake up.
“Am I far off?”
not too far off.
sooner or later, a company has to have earnings. hard to do when the Fed just pumped alot of liquidity into the system, leading to more inflation. Inflation that no way wages will catch up with anytime soon, thus slowing down earning more… things spiral down more.
alot of technicals jargon in between.. but the thesis remains the same nonetheless.
but the question now is… with the inflation that is going to come down the pipeline like a Tsaunami… whom is buying up the assets and leaving you and I holding the bag?
SAS
Make Money, by any chance do you own buildings in JC?
I don’t own anything in NJ.
“what other kind of banking is there?”
just leave out the fractional…
don’t make me pull out the geek speak lectures I had to give to those Burkenstock panty waste galoots at Tuck who thought they were the cats meow :)
SAS
For what it is worth, I had an opportunity to tell the Deputy WH Chief of Staff that Paulson should be fired for suggesting that the USG take on the bank’s bad debt.
What a horrible reflection on Republican economic values.
3b,
I agree with you 100%. The main question is where is the money coming from? Banks are scared to lend to each other let alone Joey North Jersey who makes 50 g’s a year, with no savings, $300.00 bucks in a checking account and who will have to raid his dwindling 401k just to cover a 3% down payment.
Paulson’s full of it. This is more of a plan to buy time. Get Morgan and Goldman hooked up with banks before they go under too. Yo Hank where’s that Super-Siv? How about that bank consortium that was going to bail out AIG? This whopper will buy some stability for a few days then that’s it.
Rhyming,
It is currently a “traders market.” Make money on movement, whether up or down. Tough place to be a long-term investor.
OK, just checking my GF’s shady landlord tends to have used kitchens it looks like he stole them out of someone’s home, kind of sketch, I think he goes to the New Construction projects and takes the kitchens people discard when they remove the builders grade stuff. Then again the basement of some of his buildings looks like a scene from sanford and sons. He just loads stuff into his pickup when it is discarded from building sites.
“Paulson’s full of it”
Paulson is a puppet, just like Bush.
they are just faces they we can project blame, while the real Robber Barron’s remain in cognito can continue to bend you over.
I can’t seem to figure what group is behind Paulson. anyone else?
SAS
SAS
The Comintern.
Wachovia + Morgan Stanley = Dumbest Merger in History
http://seekingalpha.com/article/96176-wachovia-morgan-stanley-dumbest-merger-in-history?source=more_author_recent_similar_articles
Escape,
My wife’s cousin got approved for a 650K purchase with 10% down with their current house still on the market. No problem. They are going to carry two mortgages (suicide) until they sell the current house even after they close on the new one in four weeks. Banks are lending… still. And believe me, they are not debt free. So, they are going to close, hopefully sell their old house, and then refi again to put the remaining sale money into the new house. F*cking madness.
Hot digitty damn!
16% price swings on the miners in the last hour or so. You gotta have huevos grande to sit in front of a terminal these days.
Just what we need a super SIV to end all SIV’s.
skeptic and others.. this may help.
a good video and that I like
“The Money Masters”
http://tinyurl.com/4deoqx
Crazy Crazy stuff going on behind the scenes tonight with PPT and all regulators, get braced for a triple witching wild ride and only a fool is shorting tommorow. They plan a short sale masacre the next few days until the short sellers are watching the market up four up days in a row and they are settling up T+3 at a big losses.
Where is Bi?
An UP day and no Bi??!!!?? Or is McCane doing badly in the polls.
[354] Rich,
Priceless!!!
on a personal “John” note, I lived for awhile in McLean VA where Wiley grew up. I asked him why he picked on Mainers and he said he always vacationed there and liked the accents, but it wasn’t supposed to be a put-down. Not sure I believe him.
from CNBC: “Paulson is said to be shopping the proposal to lawmakers in Congress, a congressional aide told Reuters. The aide said such a plan would eliminate the need for individual company bailouts. Such a move, according to its advocates, would allow banks to shovel bad debt off their balance sheets and send them back to business as usual”
…make note of the business as usual comment…meaning go back to those long, hard hits from the crack pipe and start it up all over again…what a mess
In turn, that could allow the housing market to recover because it would restore banks willingness to lend.
he [412],
Mike Morgan seems to agree;
http://realestateandhousing2.blogspot.com/
The Resolution Trust Corporation was a United States Government-owned asset-management company charged with liquidating assets (primarily real estate-related assets, including mortgage loans) that had been assets of savings and loan associations (”S&Ls”) declared insolvent by the Office of Thrift Supervision, as a consequence of the Savings and Loan crisis of the 1980s. It also took over the insurance functions of the former Federal Home Loan Bank Board. It was created by the Financial Institutions Reform Recovery and Enforcement Act (FIRREA), adopted in 1989. In 1995, its duties were transferred to the Savings Association Insurance Fund of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.
Between 1989 and mid-1995, the Resolution Trust Corporation closed or otherwise resolved 747 thrifts with total assets of $394 billion
Is it funny how people (goverment) talk about new RTC’s. How much was Lehman exposure - 700 billiions or so??? And they leverage - 1:50 or so?? If anybody could find the Average Leverage values for 1980th banks and thrifts???
My point is - just LEH is twice as big as whole 1980 crisis….
Man, I think it is time to buy physical gold and secretly bury it in a hole in by back yard… Because if gmnt does Form RTC and starts buying bad assets - well they will need what - 13-60 trillions ….
Once we print this much who would buy all thouse treasuries??????
Anybody???
286 clot…and who did they send to jail but Martha Stewart. Unbelievable
On another personal “john” note, I had one funny story about Cuomos’ wife, Kerry (or was it Courtney, I can’t remember).
Come to think of it, it wasn’t really that funny.
And, in fact, the evening really sucked when, while driving through quincy on our way back to boston, the engine threw a rod on the van we had borrowed for the event. Bruce Ayers lent us that van, and though it wasn’t our fault the engine seized, he was pretty pissed.
So, notwithstanding all the free booze, saving Joe and Matt from cougars in little black dresses, Kerry Kennedy reminding me that I promised her Cuban cigars at the last shindig, and that episode when someone inadvertently locked my bag inside a house on the Compound (and I had to resort to some high school street skills to retrieve it), that day kinda sucked.
Never mind.
Unless they feel pain for their mistakes, they will use the willingness to lend to make more bad loans.
ENOUGH already.
If you have concerns about this, call the WH and ask for Paulson to be fired. It will not happpen but they keep track of why people call and could prompt this trial balloon to pop.
This is the White House number: (202) 456-1414
Actually I’ll have to agree with John on this one. I am dumping my SKF first thing in the morning. I still think this RTC thing is a complete facade but undoubtedly with the timing of the announcement I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to see them cut rates in the am too.
Maybe GW will pull a Guiliani and claim the crisis is so big that he should remain in office to fix it. Well, not GW, he wants out, maybe Cheney. I mean, if he’s not VP, will the CIA continue to harvest organs for him at Guantanamo?
Tinfoil hat on. OK. I’m thinking of buying a house on a smaller property than the house I rent is on. I’ve discovered I hate yard work.
Tinfoil hat off…
#413 gary: Not doubting you. But I find that scenario very hard to believe. Lets see if they actually close.
RTC idea will pass congress and one trillion will be printed, I can assure you the politicians want to be in th enews that they voted to help the homeowners.
Question now is: How is this gonne effect housing. If housing is down 15%-20% from it’s highs will help form a bottom or a very near bottom.
what I worry about is a total collapse of dollar… to usher in the Amero.
A common currency of Mexico, Canada, and US.
SAS
Some of you guys are starting to seem nutty to me. Most of us here want to buy a house at a cheaper price, right? well, prices were getting cheaper before we entered the realm of systemic collapse. we do not need every bank in america to go down to get what we want— in fact, this is counterproductive, unless you are going to pay all cash (and maybe even then as you could soon be unemployed). I know we did not overspend, did not participate in the bubble, etc, but this has move beyond that stage. it is contagion time now and nobody is safe. whatever solution people can think up will not be perfect but doing nothing will be worse.
“it is contagion time now and nobody is safe.”
skeptic [430],
Very true.
It’s been my contention, for the last 2 years, that 30-40% off RE, wasn’t the main area of concern. This house of cards; WS, banking system, credit markets, derivatives, govt debts, etc., was/is much more troubling. Well the storm fronts have all collided at the same time. The long term implications are alarming. The world could only wish that this bust was only isolated to 30-40% off peak. Hard to believe, that’s the easy part.
All you can do is prepare for it and buckle up.
sas [439],
Isn’t that the game plan?
The problem Paulson now has is this rumor has to be true.
#432 - At what exchange rate 100:1, 1:100?
It is one way out of this mess.
129.sas Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
what I worry about is a total collapse of dollar… to usher in the Amero.
A common currency of Mexico, Canada, and US.
SAS
The US is going to adopt the discontinued Lira and change the language to Latin.
“First, contagion usually followed on the heels of a surge in inflows of international
capital and, more often than not, the initial shock or announcement pricked the capital flow bubble, at least temporarily. The capacity for a swift and drastic reversal of capital flows—the so called “sudden stop” problem—played a significant role.
“Second, the announcements that set off the chain reactions came as a surprise to financial markets. The distinction between anticipated and unanticipated events appears
critical, as forewarning allows investors to adjust their portfolios in anticipation of the event.
“Third, in all cases where there were significant immediate international repercussions, a leveraged common creditor was involved—be it commercial banks, hedge funds, mutual funds, or individual bondholders—who helped to propagate the contagion across national borders.”
http://www.nber.org/papers/w10061
Skep…Ask yourself who benefited the most from the subprime debacle? Was it the people losing their homes? Nope. Was it the blue collar workers as it helped them keep their jobs? Nope. Was it the bankers, realtors, mortgage brokers, insurers, etc? Absolutely! Did they profit enormously? Absolutely! Did I get a bonus the last two years? No. Did they get bonuses the last two years. Yes and the 2007 bonus was a record only to be beaten by 2008s. Which brings us to who is going to pay? Hmmm. I will pay somewhere between 20 and 30% of my income tax to Uncle Sam. The wealthy, through the generous tax system, will pay on average 18%. This is not even taking into consideration how regressive our tax system is in that I pay a much larger percentage of my income than Bob Billionaire. So ask yourself…is this fair?
One of my father’s best friends was the CEO of Delta Financial. After their demise, he called him up and asked if he was alright. His friend said that he couldn’t have been better and he saw the collapse all along. He made so much money that he never has to work another day in his life. He was looking forward to the permanent vacation. My father asked him about the predatory lending and he said the government made them do it, and they certainly were not going to try to stop them.
We did not cause the problems, yet we are being forced to foot the bill. Want to know my solution? Tax the sh*t out of the wealthy!
“Isn’t that the game plan?”
I’m afraid so, unless the the publice wakes up.
as of now, I think its going to slow down for sure, but my concern is the collapse of pension funds. once that happens (which I hope doesn’t), then I am afraid there is no turning around, and people will then have to prepare for a complete collapse.
Study the Argentina Crisis!!
and keep your eyes and ears open for the buzzword “privitization”.
SAS
“Want to know my solution? Tax the sh*t out of the wealthy!”
not sure if I agree with that one bloke, but the wealthy do get the best tax brakes.
I’d first like to see banks required to actually hold more reserves and limit fractional banking. (i.e making money out of nothing, and charging you interest on it).
SAS
Stu— I understand where you are coming from, but that plan will not work. the trult wealthy who live off of investments can easily move their money offshore. I am actually starting to think the best case scenario is to do what we are already doing– push all of our debt off onto the Arabs, Asians, Russians and gradually debase the value of it.
sas,
I agree. Only way to meet the pension obligations is to raise taxes. Raising taxes on the unemployed or those who have witnessed their wages diminish will not be accepted. End of the empire as we know it!
Glad I’m not in SKF through that announcement. Sadly enough, I tried to sell off some of my short positions at the mid day highs. Couldn’t log into Ameritrade again and I was stuck on a conference call. I hate when that happens. Long term fundamentals haven’t changed one iota. It will just take longer now. These delays of the inevitable are such a PITA!
i dont understand any one on this board. i think most of you really just want the demise of this country and its financial infastructure. i’ve been reading all these posts and a majority of you just like to complain..plain and simple. you all hate jersey so much leave.think the RE is over priced here? dont buy and leave..its all very simple. Most of you think the grass is greener on the other side and shocker o shocks when you get there it usually isnt
Skep. They would have to pay the Heroes tax now though :P
speaking of people taking a haircut,
today is the 18th…
every month on the 18th, I take a stroll over to the Russian barber shop and get the “usual”
I will talk to you blokes later.
Cheerio :)
SAS
RE: 433 very true, very true…
OT: It must be getting bad out there… I just received a cold call from a Merril grunt offering to cut me a check for clients I refer to them.
I was going to mess with him but I simply declined.
BTW- Does anyone know how my firms number ended up on their cold call list? I’m a small accounting practice in the entertainment industry. I do not bank with ML.
#442 - see reinvestor’s posts if you’re going to troll. He does a much better job and is usually funny to boot.
anarchy1: If you’ve been around a while, you would have noticed that many of us here knew the solutions a full year or two ahead of our leaders. Through our complaints we learn about a lot of alternatives and the education is wonderful. I have never met a blog where both sides of an argument doesn’t immediately turn into name calling. One should always question authority IMO. If you don’t, you could end up with 12 million dead. I only wish some German’s did that in the early 30s.
stu– gov’t maybe be able to squeeze a one time exit tax out of the mega rich before their wealth flees offshore, but then it will be gone for good. we cannot tax our way out of this problem— we need to spread it across all of the gov’ts of the world and let them share in the misery
“i think most of you really just want the demise of this country and its financial infastructure”
just read your post, too bad I’m off to see my Russian barber right now, so I will deal with you later.
SAS
Anarchy1: You must learn to embrace your inner troll. RE has perfected the science. It may have something to do with his utter lack of common sense.
“just read your post, too bad I’m off to see my Russian barber right now, so I will deal with you later.”
Perfect example of how to troll.
#446 yea im not here to entertain you mr miyagi just venting out at seeing people b*tch and moan over things that if it were to happen to you would be the first in line with heads down and hat in hand waiting for Uncle Sam to give the bail out. and for the record there were other people outside of the finance industry who ALL made money in various shapes or forms in the housing industry and thats a fact. if some folks here are stuck selling paper over at Dundler Miffin and didnt make money its usually those who are miffed now
#447 Stu-
yea im sure everyone here knew ALL he answers to this crisis…i mean Paulson only graduated top of his class ran goldman sachs and is in charge of the US treasury, but hey what does he know right
“infastructure”
It isn’t pronounced that way, either.
anarchy - just lose your job in IB?
Anarchy 1: I’m not looking for a handout. I’m just looking to not pay for the sins of the greedy. I think I’m the only moron who put down 20% when I bought my home. Meanwhile, the burger flipper next door and the a-hole who sold him the mortgage are getting the handout. And guess who’s paying for it. Me!
I suppose I should just shut the F up and learn my lesson. Right? The way to get by in this world is to screw thy neighbor. I feel much better now. We should all raise our children this way as well. Do I now qualify for a job at Morgan or Goldman or with the Fed?
anarchy1, think about this Corzine ran GS, and he is a boob. In any event perhaps the fact that he ran GS is somehow effecting his course of actions. But I guess the whole conflict of interest, aka “Goldman Sachs special skill” never came to mind.
stu if you feel fine screwing your neighbor than GS might be the place for you!
Wild day! There were suggestions that MS use some of its cash to take itself private if the stock price drops low enough.
What would the side effect of this be?
Paulson’s resume is a lot like Corzine’s. Should we all kiss hiss ass too?
I only wish I studied harder in K-12. Then I could have grown up and F’ed my countrymen behind my fabulous resume.
Going private is the best thing an ibank could do, being a public company made the partners rich initially but the model is failed and unsustainable, the options now are private or part of a conglomerate.
“Wild day! There were suggestions that MS use some of its cash to take itself private if the stock price drops low enough.”
Would never happen when you can milk Joe six pack. I thought of the whole take ourselves private option a few weeks back. Problem is, the leverage doesn’t go away. Do you want to risk your own wealth when you can risk the American tax payers. Maybe it would have been the best option before the moral hazard precedent was established with the Bear bailout, but not after.
Guys - Anybody heard of ING being in trouble?
I just got an e-mail from them for 4.5% 18 month CD!!
Stu, you are correct the problem is too large right now and you would need to find enough private equity guys to take it over. Floating the rumor though could push the stock price higher buying time. Truth be told MS really could use to merge with Wells Fargo, they would bring a large retail brokerage base and a top shelf ibank to WFC but unfortunately would bring a ton of shady assets thus why WFC has avoided them. Wachovia would be terrible as it would collapse and with out gov intervention would be a nightmare. We will see what happens but my bet still is that MS is in a better position than GS but the GS reality distortion field is turned on at full blast. Honestly if corzine and hammerin hank were running the place in recent history just imagine! Both have proven themselves short sided economic hacks, the english degree is showing itself now. I have frequently thought many prestigious MBA degrees were not too good Paulson and Corzine are the poster boys for that.
463 Victorian
Please don’t say that. I’ve been pretty happy with them.
I do not believe ING is in trouble they just want to lock up money in the event we hit full scale bank run mode.
[437] Stu,
Would that it would work. In reality, we are going to tax the crap out of the upper middle class.
Our tax systems only tax upon an accession event, meaning you get taxed when you receive it. The absolutely scary wealthy can live off their gains and passive income and pay less tax than you or I, and O isn’t changing that much. Increase that tax and the rich will learn to live without any gains at all (except for tax free muni bond interest).
Right now, the wealthy can fund massive life isurance policies that accrue benefits tax free, then borrow against them. The “loans” are repaid at death. They can also borrow from their banks with their securities and property as collateral at preferential rates, and this is better than recognizing income and paying tax on it. All but the wealthiest can avoid estate taxes through intervivos transfers and pass wealth on tax-free. Change the rules and you simply put the insurance business in the toilet as the wealthy will move on to the next avoidance technique.
How about a federal property tax? Some constitutional problems with that. Also, if you try to get at that wealth, it will leave. Quickly. You can pass an expat tax, as we did in June, but if the taxpayer never expats, then no tax. Try to pass a new gift tax law? Before you do, all that wealth will be offshore in a trust so that the trust does the giving instead.
Squeeze hard enough and the wealth goes underground. It will simply vanish, only to turn up in a foreign jurisdiction under a fictitious name. In Europe, Jews converted wealth to diamonds because, as the old saw goes “in troubling times, the best wealth is portable.”
Now, chew on some of these great quotes I came across:
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot further the brotherhood of many by encouraging class hatred. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.”
Abraham Lincoln
“The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism, but under the name of Liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program until one day America will be a Socialist nation without knowing how it happened.”
Norman Thomas - Socialist Party Presidential candidate (1976)
This country is not exactly friendly to domestic wealth. Consider that the Forbes 500 used to be dominated by americans, now there are hardly any. Foreign wealth is treated far better here.
That is why my plan is (if I have enough to be worthwhile) to convert domestic wealth to foreign wealth for preferred tax treatment.
re Too large right now.
At one time today the market cap was $12b. If shorts drive the price sub $10 it looks doable.
The suggestion was that some parts could be sold off.
#452 - yea im not here to entertain you mr miyagi
Aww, isn’t that cute! Casual racism from a internet toughguy. That takes me clear back to ‘97 or ‘99.
In case you’re unclear of how the script proceeds from here you now call me a f*g and threaten me physically. Think you can handle that? Yeah, I knew you could too.
venting out
Not that I mean to be a grammar cop but that’s a bit redundant isn’t it?
at seeing people b*tch and moan over things that if it were to happen to you would be the first in line with heads down and hat in hand waiting for Uncle Sam to give the bail out.
Dear anarchy1, we are complaining because it is happening to us. We are unable to escape the financial system of which we are a part. It’s happening to you too, did you know that? I would explain about subsets and supersets, but I’m pretty sure your algebra2 class hasn’t gotten that far.
and for the record there were other people outside of the finance industry who ALL made money in various shapes or forms in the housing industry and thats a fact.
No, it can’t be! I refuse to believe it. Shocked! Shocked, I am! I’m so shocked my monocle fell out!
Aww, look at that it’s broken too. Do you know how hard it is to find a good monocle in this town? The entire monocle district has been going downhill since `23 and now I need a new one. I suppose I could try Restoration Eyeware but they’re just soooo trendy.
Epiphany: There’s no more risk in the markets.
All companies are too big to fail.
#438 sas: I think its going to slow down for sure.
Sorry I did not follow that. What is going to slow down for sure?
#441 stu: Sorry long day for me. What will take longer now?
468 tosh
Nice fisking.
back from my haircut… looks good, I go with the scissors in the Fall & Winter, save the clippers for the Spring & Summer.
SAS
Possible Conversation:
Lloyd B: Yo Hanky you better do something or GS won’t be here next week.
Hanky P: Ok bro, I won’t let my family down. I’ll talk up some crazy RTC sh*t, claim we are taking all the financials lousy assets off your hands. That’ll put these shorts in their place.
Lloyd B: Thanks bro. Of course you are going to give us a heads up re the time of your announcement so we can trade accordingly.
Hanky Panky: Come on Lloyd that would be unethical…..(long pause)….
Lloyd B: Hahahah, sh*t bro you had me going there!!!
Hanky Panky: I’ll text you bro, and I’ll include the pic my assistant took with his I-phone of Fuld’s face when we told him he wasn’t too big to fail.
Lloyd B: Wow three gifts in one day!
“#438 sas: I think its going to slow down for sure.
Sorry I did not follow that. What is going to slow down for sure?”
the overall economy, many more banks will collapse, but its kind of “expected” for the most part.
But, what is not expected and will bring everything, is the collapse of the pension funds.
if this were to happen (and the proability is there, that they will), then its a spiral that nobody can control, psychology will totally change, and we all have to prepare for a complete collapse.
Lets just hope I didn’t smoke some bad grass last time I was in Jamacia.
SAS
#475 sas: Thanks!!
Wow.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2008/09/new_jersey_may_sue_lehman_over.html
Can we replace Cox with Niki Cox? She is also an idiot but at least she is smoking hot.
Actually, she’s had a ton of work done and her face is gnarly. Plus, she married that douche Jay Mohr.
But in 1999, sure, she was off-the-charts hot.
“New Jersey may sue Lehman over pension losses”
there ya go…
lets hope this is an isolated incident, and it doesn’t spread.
oh brother…
SAS
479 sas
I don’t know. NY lost a lot as well. I believe the TRS which is the Teacher’s Retirement System held something like 2 million shares.
Marketwatch: SEC to “temporarily” ban short selling.
remember remember the 5th of november
welcome to the united states of pakistan.
Pelosi to make anocment after big meeting.
Big meeting talking heads words not mine ,I want to puke
Pelosi to make anocment after big meeting.
Big meeting talking heads words not mine ,I want to puke
Sorry, that was not done just drafting but you get it, here she comes out now.
Did you see that press conference? Somebody needs to take out those slimeballs. What a collection of self serving f’g a-holes!!!! Rip off the taxpayers and f’g rap yourselves in the flag while you’re doing it! I’ve never seen anything so disgusting in my life.
Well it looks like it is all over but the screaming. What a farce.
By the way dog on my lap top. He likes to post!
“I’ve never seen anything so disgusting in my life.”
Wait till Monday.
They need to restore the eletes moral compass. I would suggest that all citizens whose net worth is > $5M be drafted, and made to serve 2 years in Iraq or Afghan. This would exclude those who previously served in a War Zone like John McCain, but would include weekend warriors like GWB and draft dodgers like WJC. No age limits, they all go regardless of race, religion, personal perversion, sex or lack there of, etc.
HeHe This is the final nail in the coffin.
These people should be hung for treason.
“think the RE is over priced here? dont buy and leave..its all very simple. Most of you think the grass is greener on the other side and shocker o shocks when you get there it usually isnt”
[442],
Hah! I have a much better idea. Sell to the delusional during the mania, sit back watch the wizards goose the same simpletons and short the crap out the s#it. Why move? Having a blast here.
Don’t want to witness the demise of the country, just the demise of financial wizardry/engineering and of sourse, the demise of the banking cartel. How about back to bricks and mortar. The only question, can Pavlov’s dog be re-trained?
One other thought, what will be left in the canyons when the new sheriff is in town, with much less leverage and much higher cap requirements. Better be part of a commercial bank and have access to cheap deposits.
By the way, how you doing?
490.Mikeinwaiting Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
HeHe This is the final nail in the coffin.
These people should be hung for treason
The Penalty for Economic Treason needs to be more severe then hanging. It must be seizure of “All Their Assets” which would hurt them where they lived. The remainder of the Penalty can be working a 60 hour week in a sweatshop, for life, to learn humility.
Are you guys going to call your Senators/Congressmen to tell them that you will vote them out if they go through with this?
puke and Pelosi in one post is on target
Victorian,
Indeed I will. Earlier today I told the Deputy Chief of Staff. Tomorrow I do congress, including some senators and house members from other states that I know.
mike (489)-
I knew the words “treason” and “execution” would be here within 5 minutes of Pelosi’s donkey show.
I still think a firing squad would be too dignified for this human trash. We need to bring back the whole panoply of medieval tortures to properly deal with them.
However, these brainiacs have no f-ing idea that they’ve jumped the shark of a truly stupid response to a massive, exponentially-spreading systemic failure. Rather than blather on, I’ll post the link to Mike Morgan’s excellent instant analysis (sorry if it’s already been posted):
http://realestateandhousing2.blogspot.com/2008/09/pusher-paulson-with-another-fix.html
Does anyone here read and/or particpate in any blogs that have this many comments daily?? Wow!
KL
“Well it looks like it is all over but the screaming. What a farce”
Here is where the senate is of great help. It takes 60 votes to get clotsure so, 40 can prevent the bill from being voted on, and a single senator can place a hold on bringing a bill up for debate.
One hopes that for a trillion they would actually hold hearings and nit rush the thing through in the dead of night without due consideration.
3B…the downfall will take longer. I was referring to the endless delays of the inevitable.
Everything will seem honky dory until the Asian’s stop buying our treasuries. They have already slowed a little, but this latest move to move everything toxic into out national debt should do it.
Shore, You go, seems you have some connections. I may have to change my party ,but to what or whom!
Yet another Morgan screed: a post-Pelosi donkey show wrap up:
http://realestateandhousing2.blogspot.com/2008/09/wall-street-dumps-its-cancer-on-main.html
“Are you guys going to call your Senators/Congressmen to tell them that you will vote them out if they go through with this?”
vic,
No. I’m going to buy gold on each and every dip.
It’s too far gone, they will just dig us into a deeper hole. What may have been accomplished in the next 2-3 years, will just take longer. However, the end result will be the same. You can patch it with band aids, hold it together with paper clips or try to keep it standing with stilts. All just temporary solutions. In the long run, the govt/fed/treasury/cb’s can not stop the businees cycle. It’s too powerful of a wave.
One other thought, does anybody really have any confidence that the dolts that got us into the mess can now magically turn this around without continued, massive failures, bankruptcies and pain/destruction of wealth?
Shore (497)-
Let’s see what Bunning is made of now.
My bets are, he pulls an el foldo and skulks away.
All the wh@res in Congress are paid off…except Bernie Sanders. And he’s just insane.
BC (501)-
My call is that the idiot rally doesn’t even make it to noon.
Relock, reload, fighter pilot face back on.
business
This must be stopped put the sheeple will think it is a good idea, all is lost. I just can’t believe it, take all the sh*t onto the gov books (tax payer)f**ken fools.
Clot [503],
Why do I feel a surprise coming, before the start of trading on a triple witching day? I covered, ready to give it back at higher levels.
put = but pissed off
Ron Paul will not go for it, for all the good that will do.
No shorting will crash the market. There will be nobody buying lousy stocks. They will all get sold. The market will dry up.
Bad, really bad.
Oh I see them manipulating the sh*t out of things tomorrow. No short selling, rate cut, this RTC bs, they’ll start flying a bunch of other bullsh*t up the flagpole, anything to buy time.
This is a classic performance by government officials and businessmen. The end result will be that the government pays money, peasants go to jail, the companies resume their business, the people who pay tax foot the bill, and children get to endure hardship.
The above is a translated quoted from a chinese blog, it would belong here if it was’nt about the tainted with melamine milk.
KL
#427 3b,
I know someone who did that with even bigger numbers. Still haven’t sold the first house.
Time to lighten things up.
Anyone remember Windows 3.1. This a 24 parody based in 1994.
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1788161
#506 Bc bob.
I think it is actually quadruple witching tomorrow.
They’re going to vote it in overnight. It will be done by morning.
They said on Bloomberg there wouldn’t be anything until next week at the earliest.
Finance Gurus-
How does this affect the options market? I am assuming that when you buy a put, somebody actually shorts those shares, correct?
PGC.
That was great, aah the memories after I left the work force in 91 the first PC I got at home ran on windows 3.1 that was believe it or not 1998. The changes due to technology grow exponentially.
KL
Anyone have any experience with Kitco or Blanchard?
How does this affect the options market? I am assuming that when you buy a put, somebody actually shorts those shares, correct?
No.
When you buy a put, you are basically paying someone to agree to buy a stock from you at a predetermined price at some point in the future.
If you buy a December $10 put from me for ABC company and the price drops to $5, you have the right to sell it to me for $10.
victorian Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Finance Gurus-
How does this affect the options market? I am assuming that when you buy a put, somebody actually shorts those shares, correct?
____________________________________________
I think you are correct. So the market can only go up. Nice!
Socialism is certainly in effect…
clot - serves me right for hitting the gym in the middle of the day. i leave and SKF is around 148 and i see it later hits 153 … by the time i get on the treadmill, i see this market up 400 point bS and i watch CNBC hoping for an update … but no, i have to wait to check the phone for the depressing 115.
such is life. i am tempted to post an email i sent the financial advisor tuesday night about SKF and a sell at 150. oh well, im long with it now … or until it bounces back to 150
lol
I’m so happy today!! I just knew that our republican led government would end this crisis. You terrorists had better pull up your damn shorts. No one wants to see you with your azzes struck out disrepectfully mooning this damn country. By the open of the market tomorrow, short selling will be banned, just like they did in Great Britain. Guess what? The terrorist dirtbags that have been relentlessly shorting the market will probably be picked up. I hope Stu’s young azz is one of the first ones that picked up for some questioning.
I was listening to CNBC today with Cramer and other folks talking about how unpatriotic short selling is. By extension, that also includes those who talked down real estate. YOU ALL WILL BE DETAINED AND IT’S ABOUT DAMN TIME.
Guess what? Our party is not about to let this country go down in the dumpster because some damn wusses masquerading as real estate terrorists want to talk some shlt. Bet you’re all sweating bullets now!
They’re getting ready to take a WHOLE LOT of our money and give it to banks.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/19/business/economy/19cndecon.html
And no, you do not get to vote on this.
On the week, the dow is still down 400 pts. In my book that’s a pretty crappy week for the longs. I hope you were short.
#518 KL
I remember working with Windows 2.0.
Wow over 500 comments to read through. Thank goodness this blog is too big to fail!
could reinvestard101 be grim trolling to create more action on his boards?
sounds more plausible than anyone actually meaning those posts.
Well, it’s nice to see all the frantic activity as the hamsters (thank you Shore) rock, rattle and roll in their wire treadmills, but tell me please how this helps the solvency problem? How does this get one real dollar of capital to any of these institutions? Smoke and mirrors, vaporware, naked emperors. Okay, I’m out of allusions. (I just wish I wasn’t out of illusions.)
“I was listening to CNBC today with Cramer”
50.5,
That’s your problem. Been following his stock plays?
Cramer reminds me of a gnome….without the cool hat.
I remember working with Windows 2.0.
I had a computer that ran at 2 Mhz. It actually had a “turbo” button to punch it up to a lightning fast 4 Mhz, if you had the need for speed.
And where does all of this leave real estate, as in price declines going forward?
Bet you’re all sweating bullets now!
____________________________________________
Not at all. I get to sit back and watch the market crash as all the hedge funds close shop and sell at a loss because they cannot short stocks.
You are so retarded, short selling is needed to keep the markets liquid.
You really are the village idiot!
“working with Windows 2.0.”
First, “working” with that wasn’t actually possible. Playing, maybe.
Second, it’s nothing to brag about, since it was never the best option, even at that time.
“Financial rescue package will need Congress’ OK”
oh, like those assholes are gonna say NO
they’ll just demand more gifts be built into it
I was listening to CNBC today with Cramer and other folks talking about how unpatriotic short selling is.
____________________________________________
Dear Village Idiot:
Cramer ran a hedge fund, guess what he did while he was there, SHORT STOCKS!
You don’t get to sit back and watch a damn thing, except through the bars of the damn jailhouse. Tell you what, Mr. Smartazz, why don’t you try to pull off a naked short tomorrow and see how long you last. You don’t deserve to breath the same damn air I’m breathing. You need to be breathing the air of a dungeon.
Look, stop talking this damn nonsense about short selling supporting efficient markets; that’s a bunch of bullshlt. The only damn thing short selling has done is support market turmoil and attacks on good American businesses. Guess what? Your damn day is done as short selling will undoubtedly be banned. Calpers and others will refuse to allow you dirtbags to borrow the shares to engage in this despicable unamerican practice.
You disgust me. Terrorist.
All Hype Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
Bet you’re all sweating bullets now!
____________________________________________
Not at all. I get to sit back and watch the market crash as all the hedge funds close shop and sell at a loss because they cannot short stocks.
You are so retarded, short selling is needed to keep the markets liquid.
You really are the village idiot!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122177752165254337.html
“In 2003, Robert Provost snapped up a $2.5 million villa with its own boat dock in Sarasota, Fla. A finance chief for an auto-sales chain, Mr. Provost earned more than $250,000 a year and had an impeccable credit history.
Then he lost his job. Mr. Provost missed one $10,500 mortgage payment, then another. This month, the 53-year-old put his house, a five-bedroom with sweeping views of an intercoastal waterway, on the market for $3.4 million. But the listing has thus far attracted little interest. Mr. Provost says he expects to receive a notice of default from the bank — the first step to foreclosure — in the next month or two.
“A foreclosure would be devastating,” he says. “My wife and I would have to start from scratch.”
…”
Boo hoo.
retard,
I don’t need to be short and I don’t have to play a rigged game. I’ll be selling everything tomorrow and getting my money out of the country (and out of USD).
Enjoy the Fascist States of Abyssinia.
P.S. Thank Chrissy for the short squeeze tomorrow. If you could arrange +500 on the Dow before 10 am, that would be gravy.
that’s right reinvestor, our entire economy was brought down by short sellers. HEY I GOT AN IDEA!!! LETS ALL SHORT CHINA AND DESTROY THEIR ECONOMY TOO!!!!
reinvestor101 Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
You don’t get to sit back and watch a damn thing, except through the bars of the damn jailhouse. Tell you what, Mr. Smartazz, why don’t you try to pull off a naked short tomorrow and see how long you last. You don’t deserve to breath the same damn air I’m breathing. You need to be breathing the air of a dungeon.
Look, stop talking this damn nonsense about short selling supporting efficient markets; that’s a bunch of bullshlt. The only damn thing short selling has done is support market turmoil and attacks on good American businesses. Guess what? Your damn day is done as short selling will undoubtedly be banned. Calpers and others will refuse to allow you dirtbags to borrow the shares to engage in this despicable unamerican practice.
You disgust me. Terrorist.
____________________________________________
I have never shorted a stock and I have never bought a put on a stock. Not only do I deserve to breath the same air as you but I should take some of yours cause it appears a lack of oxygen has given you brain rot.
Not only am I not going to be in a dungeon but I will be way better off financially than you, village idiot. You should learn from the way I have saved and invested but instead you just shoot off your mouth like a retard.
Tell you what, I will meet you wherever you want and I can show you how responsible people save money and how to trim losses. Maybe you will not be so disgusted by me.
You know what? That may be the best damn idea you’ve ever expressed here. Those damn commies and their surrogates are probably behind all this damn shorting over here. It may be time to retaliate.
Ben Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
that’s right reinvestor, our entire economy was brought down by short sellers. HEY I GOT AN IDEA!!! LETS ALL SHORT CHINA AND DESTROY THEIR ECONOMY TOO!!!!
Laughing all the way Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
clot - serves me right for hitting the gym in the middle of the day. i leave and SKF is around 148 and i see it later hits 153 … by the time i get on the treadmill, i see this market up 400 point bS and i watch CNBC hoping for an update … but no, i have to wait to check the phone for the depressing 115.
such is life. i am tempted to post an email i sent the financial advisor tuesday night about SKF and a sell at 150. oh well, im long with it now … or until it bounces back to 150
LATW: If your financial advisor was worth anything he would sever his relationship with you. He/she is obviously an idiot, and you should feel to sue him for damages when and if you lose money. His E&O insurance company will settle with you in a flash. JMHO
You are a bald faced liar. As much as you’ve been here cheerleading and jumping up and down at every instance of financial reversal, there’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that you’ve been shorting stocks. This is just an attempt to get your name off the list of those who are about to be detained and questioned about your loyalties. Guess what? It’s too damn late for you to scurry like a roach trying to escape the damn light.
Tell you what, we can meet, but it won’t be over lunch; it will be at your local county courthouse so I can conduct a citizen’s arrest and personally throw your azz in jail.
I have never shorted a stock and I have never bought a put on a stock. Not only do I deserve to breath the same air as you but I should take some of yours cause it appears a lack of oxygen has given you brain rot.
Not only am I not going to be in a dungeon but I will be way better off financially than you, village idiot. You should learn from the way I have saved and invested but instead you just shoot off your mouth like a retard.
Tell you what, I will meet you wherever you want and I can show you how responsible people save money and how to trim losses. Maybe you will not be so disgusted by me.
Now the bankers and Congress are itching to resurrect the Resolution Trust Corp.
Tony Crescenzi of the Boston Globe explains how this scam will work:
Basically the U.S. will end up buying the toxic assets from the banking system in a more comprehensive way then we’ve ALREADY been doing. Staring down the worst financial crisis in decades, U.S. lawmakers are strongly considering whether they need to dust off a 1980s-era plan to help save the banking industry and stabilize the economy more broadly. Both Democrats and Republicans have shown interest over the past two days in the idea of creating a government corporation to help deal with the toxic assets that have already brought down financial behemoths Bear Stearns Cos. and Lehman Bros., and forced the government to take over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
In other words, in order to “stabilize the economy” deliberately wrecked by the banksters, “lawmakers” — that is, high paid whores for bankers and transnational corporations — will agree to crank up the already staggering national debt with this scheme.
Recall Chris Dodd saying there would be no more government bailouts for other banks or institutions after $80 billion AIG bailout. Man, that Chris is a funny guy… he also takes you for an idiot.
reinvestor101 Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
You are a bald faced liar. As much as you’ve been here cheerleading and jumping up and down at every instance of financial reversal, there’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that you’ve been shorting stocks. This is just an attempt to get your name off the list of those who are about to be detained and questioned about your loyalties. Guess what? It’s too damn late for you to scurry like a roach trying to escape the damn light.
Tell you what, we can meet, but it won’t be over lunch; it will be at your local county courthouse so I can conduct a citizen’s arrest and personally throw your azz in jail.
____________________________________________
Ok, which courthouse? Can you handle 6 feet tall and 250 lbs. I work out 5 days/week and do a little boxing training here and there. I have a head as big as a rottweiler and hard as cement. Ask still_looking, she can vouch for me.
Reinvestor 404 wrote: “This is just an attempt to get your name off the list of those who are about to be detained and questioned about your loyalties.”
Um… seriously… you should wait until your Geodon level is therapeutic before you post delusional and psychotic rants like this.
Go. Quick…. get the quick dissolving tablets right now…
Really. We’ll wait.
sl
All-Hype… I call him “little brother” in name only.
Seriously, man. Get your Geodon on in hurry. Better yet… the injectable Haldol might work faster.
sl
“Ron Paul Discusses Financial Turmoil and the Fed 9/18/08″
http://tinyurl.com/449gwg
Sometimes I think 101 is grim, other times Steven Corbert, sometimes a frustrated 26 year old taking a break from looking at the pictures in his mom’s Cosmo as he lives in the bedroom he grew up in.
Name the damn courthouse and I’ll be there. Although you may look like a damn dog, you’re dimunitive in size. I’m 6′ 2″, weigh 280lbs and am in tip top shape. You got a head of cement huh? Bet nothing gets in or out of that head which probably accounts for the foolhardly attempt to set up an appointment with me.
Believe me, you have bitten off more that you can chew. Pantywaist.
Ok, which courthouse? Can you handle 6 feet tall and 250 lbs. I work out 5 days/week and do a little boxing training here and there. I have a head as big as a rottweiler and hard as cement. Ask still_looking, she can vouch for me.
bairen, 550 maybe.. funny thing is you never see the two of them at the same time… kinda like Clark Kent/Superman - or in this case grim/superTard.
sl
All-Hype,
You’ll have to introduce Tard, a/k/a Re404 to the bilaterally applied MeatHook sandwich… :-)
Then again, is it really fair to shove around a Tard? And a mentally ill one, at that?
BTW, how was Dubai?? You and G need to come have dinner with us one night!
sl
Don’t you have a lost scaple to find that you’ve left sewed up in someone?
For the umpteenth damn time, Grim and I are two different damn people.
still_looking Says:
September 18th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
bairen, 550 maybe.. funny thing is you never see the two of them at the same time… kinda like Clark Kent/Superman - or in this case grim/superTard.
sl
#533 MJ
Are we heading to a 8088 vs 68000 smackdown.
I may out nerd you … :*)
reinvestard101 writes: ” I’m 6′ 2″, weigh 280lbs and am in tip top shape.”
Is that a personal ad? Let’s see some photos.
Reinvestor 101:
Does this mean that the next GTG will be on the steps of the Warren County Courthouse?
Anyway, gotta go, I cannot wait to short stocks offshore tomorrow!
Bye…
101 does crack me up sometimes.
@PGC: “Are we heading to a 8088 vs 68000 smackdown.”
68030, also MIPS & SPARC…
But really the software, is much more important than the hardware architecture. UNIX is the key.
The same year Windows 2.0 came out, so did the NeXT. And NeXT is what is the foundation of Mac OS X today, and the iPhone.
still_looking:
Dubai was a good time, just was there too short of a time period.
Couple of observations:
1. I know where our gas money went.
2. Dubai will be Manhattan in 10 years. The contruction is incredible.
3. Your son better learn arabic cause that is where Wall Street is gonna be after he gets out of college.
4. It is hot, really hot. I went on a desert excursion and the sun was burning thru my long sleeve T-shirt.
5. Nobody form the UAE actually works, they import all the labor.
6. Lots of rich Russians at the hotel. Lots of poor Russian staff to serve them.
Will call you tomorrow to talk about dinner.
Nite!
Here is my dose of paranoia and armegeddon fatalism for the day - along with slightly brighter scenario.
The real behind close doors US plan is to
take equity stakes in return for capital injections in forms of loans or purchase of bad assets
issue debt to pay for those capital injections
issue strong capital/leverage requirements to avoid appearance of moral hazard, with real motivation being more controlled but continued asset deflation
print money to pay for debt, while stimulating offsetting deflation
if needed, due to energy demand or prevent hyperinflation/dollar collapse
repudiate debt owed China and Russia, in a way which perserves or even strengthens its reserve currency status.
reduce global demand for fossil fuels
How do you do these last two, which become increasingly likely given risks of other plan elements?
The answer is simple - war or at least cold war with strategic hot skirmisms (in energy rich areas).
US gains moral justification for repudiating Russia/China debt and retaining confidence of other creditors. Euro, Pound, and Yen all fall vs dollar, given proximity to and balance of military power vs. newly provoked/iscolated Russia/China.
Japan and Europe forced to support currency and buy debt, in order to ensure their protection and access to energy provided by US naval power/nuclear umbrella.
Oil producers forced to do the same, or see their large US holdings frozen and targeted as aggressors. Beyond caspian, Russia and China unable to counter US naval blockage should they chose to ally with them.
Bottom line, US will do anything short of all out nuclear war to maintain is geo-polictical position and the pre-requiste standard of living to retain political power.
Creditors may choose on their own to accept negative returns by buying bad assets or funding RTC, in order to avoid unemployment/civil unrest, and thus prevent the WWIII scenario.
Developing nations consumption of resources would slow, as result of reduced but not eliminated US demand/borrowing.
Likewise balance of trade would shift, as dollar goes to a lower but stablized level and domestic/forign fund flows are directed toward real industries rather than exotic financial instruments. Clean energy may be one of these industries.
China and India may go along with further energy use reduction in name of climate change. Elites would be able to continue 1st world life style, while ensuring their dollar wealth doesn’t collapse or biggest customer doesn’t completely stop spending. They would be able to placate new educated middle classes with climate change explanation.
Did some work on NeXT as well, coolest looking computer of its day. Working with NextSTEP still gives me shivers. While the GUI design was a breeze, back end programming was a b1tch, when you had to tie it into things like a mainframe running Ingres I was way out of my depth. I will never forget (****a), take off a pointer as you move up the stack.
But it showed how far ahead of the curve Steve Jobs actually was.
#560 all hype
4,5,6 sound like my last trip to Vietnam. A lot of Russians there for for the oil, running teams of workers imported from the farmlands.
A little taste of Brazil.
Helloooooo Oligarchy.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/ap_on_re_us/tent_cities
So, in “a matter of hours” they’re gonna come up with a plan to fix the mess?
Decades in the making, to be fixed in a matter of hours.
What you could not fix despite attempting many times before.
Yeah, this will work. Right.
Over and over. Same as it ever was.
The responsible. The forthright. The just. The prudent.
We are burdened once again. The idiots and thieves strapped firmly to our backs.
I remember dropping cards off at night to have a program run and then picking up the printout the next morning. By the time we had progresswd to edlin, we thought we were in computing nirvana.
rofl, who knew reinvestor101 was an internet tough guy
Tard having well, you know “his condition,” how could he have such a hatred for Healthcare professionals?
sympathy off