Rents fall 5.9% across Manhattan

From Bloomberg:

Manhattan Apartment Rents Fall as Unemployment Rises

Manhattan apartment rents fell as much as 5.9 percent in March from a year earlier as a record jump in unemployment damped demand, Citi-Habitats Inc. said.

Average rents declined for apartments of all sizes and the vacancy rate topped 2 percent for the fifth straight month, the New York-based property broker said today in an e-mailed statement.

Demand slumped after New York City’s unemployment rate climbed to 8.1 percent in February, the highest level since October 2003 and the biggest month-to-month increase on record. City Comptroller William Thompson predicted in March that New York City would lose 250,000 jobs before the recession ends.

“There are people who are unemployed, and people not willing to spend the type of money they were willing to spend before and they need to make tough decisions,” said Gary Malin, president of Citi-Habitats.

Rents for studio apartments dropped 2.1 percent to an average of $1,812, while those for one-bedroom units fell 5.9 percent to $2,595. The cost of renting two-bedroom homes declined 2.2 percent to $3,631 and three-bedrooms fell 1.6 percent to an average of $4,670.

The average declines for March don’t reflect concessions offered by landlords, such as a free month’s rent, that lower the overall cost to tenants, Malin said.

“There is a greater degree of price decline than those numbers show,” he said.

This entry was posted in Economics, Housing Bubble, New Jersey Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

185 Responses to Rents fall 5.9% across Manhattan

  1. grim says:

    From the Record:

    Sony cutting 170 jobs

    Faced with the continuing consumer spending slump, Sony Electronics Inc. will cut about 170 jobs at its Park Ridge and Teaneck offices — or 19 percent of the workforce — through an early retirement package and layoffs, the company said today.

    The reduction includes 60 layoffs, which were announced to employees over the last week, said John Scarcella, president of broadcast and business solutions. Laid off employees will leave on June 19, he said.

    Another 110 employees took an early retirement package for employees aged over 50, he said. The offer closed last month, and participants will leave by June 2, he said.

    Sony is one of several electronics companies to shrink their workforces in recent months. Panasonic, which has its U.S. headquarters in Secaucus, said in February it would cut 15,000 jobs and shut 27 factories worldwide after sufferings its first loss in six years.

    Sharp, with offices in Mahwah, said in February it would cut 1,500 jobs worldwide after suffering its first annual loss in five decades. Korea-based LG Electronics, Inc., with its U.S. headquarters in Englewood Cliffs, has said it may cut jobs due to declining sales.

  2. DL says:

    “Thomas Kelly, who spent last summer and fall looking to trade up to a single from a townhouse, said most sellers in the Collegeville area “didn’t do much to spruce up their homes and were of the opinion that if we didn’t buy it, someone else would.”

    He finally bought a house in Skippack for $285,000 that had been on the market for 200-plus days at $350,000.”

    http://www.philly.com/inquirer/columnists/al_heavens/20090412_On_the_House__Few_bargains_for_Phila_-area_house_hunters.html

    Of course the headline reads: “Few bargains for Phila.-area house hunters.”

  3. DL says:

    “People don’t understand that times have changed,” says Jordan, a veteran Realtor with Prudential, Fox & Roach in Moorestown. “They’re holding out.”

    If buyers helped fuel the bust by binging on overvalued homes, sellers perpetuate the pain by refusing to lower their expectations when pricing their properties.

    “The people who get the message are selling,” Jordan says. “Those who don’t are sitting.”

    http://www.philly.com/inquirer/real_estate/20090412_Monica_Yant_Kinney__Reality_check_on_the_home_front.html

  4. DL says:

    “Pennsylvania imposes a 1 percent tax on all real estate sales prices, with the town, the school district, or both typically collecting an additional 1 percent. The state’s $491.9 million total for fiscal 2008 was off 17 percent from 591.4 million a year earlier.”

    “The New Jersey variant, the realty transfer fee, is remitted to the state for a variety of uses, and no additional levy is imposed by the locals. The fees aren’t quite as hefty as those on the other side of the river, but they have one thing in common with Pennsylvania’s: The numbers are way down, from $184.9 million in the seven months ending Jan. 31, 2008, to $123.8 million through January 2009. In January, New Jersey collected only about one-third of what it had anticipated.”

    http://www.philly.com/inquirer/real_estate/20090413_Weak_tax_collections_crimp_public_raises.html

  5. grim says:

    From the Star Ledger:

    Sen. Menendez: N.J. may need more federal stimulus funding

    Sen. Robert Menendez (D-NJ) today said another round of federal stimulus funding may be necessary to boost New Jersey and other states struggling against the recession, but that the need won’t be clear until the billions already authorized seep into the economy.

    New Jersey is slated to receive about $17.5 billion over three years — including $7.5 billion in tax relief — from the $787 billion stimulus bill President Barack Obama signed on Feb. 17. Officials say the money will create or save 100,000 jobs in the state. But some experts are worried that the money will not be enough to turn the economy around, and are advocating for a second shot of funding.

  6. DL says:

    Ref 5: Almost half the stimulus in tax relief. The only jobs saved will be state workers.

  7. grim says:

    Bye bye business, bye bye jobs!

    From the Morning Call:

    B&G Foods to shift shipping, storage to Lower Nazareth

    Food manufacturer and distributor B&G Foods — known for such brands as Ortega tacos and Vermont Maid maple syrup, as well as renowned chef Emeril Lagasse’s line of seasonings and sauces — will relocate its storage and shipping operations to Lower Nazareth Township.

    The New Jersey-based company will lease 420,000 square feet of the ProLogis Park 33 warehouse complex at Routes 33 and 248, according to a ProLogis news release. B&G Foods plans to use the location in place of two centers in Delaware and New Jersey.

  8. homebuyer says:

    Sorry to repost but I asked the other day at the end of the thread and I dont know if anyone saw my question.

    Does anyone know anything about the freight trains that run in Bergen specifically Harrington Park, Closter, Haworth, Dumont, Bergenfield etc…

    I want to know how frequently they run?
    Since the train runs through the middle of most of these towns how far away is it not considered a detriment to home value. What do you think are the average persons thoughts on the willingness to live with the inconvenience (500 ft, 1000ft?, 1 block away?). These trains blow the horns at intersections and this can be heard pretty loudly so I just wanted to know what one may think.

  9. ruggles says:

    2 – Skippack’s a great town with a pretty decent rep, he’s better off.

  10. tbw says:

    I haven’t checked Secaucus listings in awhile, but you couldn’t touch a house in Secaucus for under $400,000 a few years ago. Lowest priced house currently on the market is listed at $289,000

  11. DL says:

    Why they call them one-armed bandits…

    “Pennsylvania homeowners outside of Philadelphia will for the second year receive at least $200 in property-tax reductions from slot-machine gambling revenue, Gov. Rendell said yesterday.

    Speaking at a news conference in Pittsburgh, Rendell said that despite the recession, the amount of gambling revenue available for tax relief has remained stable, because the state’s casino venues have proved to be competitive with neighboring states’, including New Jersey.”

    http://www.philly.com/inquirer/home_region/20090414_Rendell___200_in_property_tax_help_for_Pa__homeowners.html

  12. stan says:

    Anecdata to piggy back on the bloomberg article.

    We are month to month in our place. Looked at some apts in hoboken this wkend to see what the rental mkt looked like. First place was a large large, newer building close to the watwerfront, no views. Listed rent for the two bedroom was 2200. If you signed a 13 month lease, you got the the first and last month free.

    Were on the western side of downtown. Looked at a place 200 sq ft bigger than ours, this one three blocks from the path train, same price, nicer place. No fee.

    We are currently mth to mth, so we are staying unless we really get a good deal. The idea of locking in a lease isn’t apealling, and if we decide to pull the trigger we an be out in an instant.

    Lastly, my two old roommates prior to me getting hitched, are moving to the city when their lease is up next month. Manhattan rents are cheaper or have better incentives than Hoboken right now.

    Just some ane-data to chew on.

  13. stan says:

    And WTF is Ron Payne doing in Somalia??

    Get your own house in order over here before some BS fact finding mission.

  14. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (7,10) Grim,

    2 more examples of Fast Eddie sticking it to his good friend King Jon.

    Said it before and will say again, PA is eating NJ’s lunch and will continue to do so.

    Despite Corzine’s latest ads, claiming to improve the business environment, I see no movement in Trenton toward that goal. None.

    I think Fast Eddie will continue to pull in enough business to the conservative T to keep himself in Harrisburg (even while he tosses Phila under the bus).

  15. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (12) Stan

    The spouse asked the same question: its because it plays well with the voters.

    No other rational explanation. Payne may spout off abouit factfinding, fostering understanding, bridging cultures, repairing our rep in Somalia, but those are fluff lines. This is little more than a photo op.

  16. NJGator says:

    Prices dropping, dropping, dropping. Another SFH dips below 500k in prestigious Millburn:

    GSMLS 2661536 (18 Norwood) LP 499k.

    There are now 11 sub 500k listings for 3BR SFH in Millburn. 3 of those listings are below 400k.

    In my South Orange listings today there is an 18.2% price drop from the last previous sale in 9/06. Purchased in 06 for 859k, now on market for 699k. Tax assessed by SO at 744.7k. GSMLS 2673334 (183 N Woods).

    Laissez les bon temps rouler! I am already in a Nawlins state of mind.

  17. freedy says:

    payne,, he needs some voters

    come to nj,, get on the dole,,

  18. Pat says:

    “How do you REALLY feel?”

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30202699/

  19. Shore Guy says:

    The rents sem to be following a trend. I just got this from DC:

    “The Producer Price Index for Finished Goods decreased 1.2 percent in March, seasonally
    adjusted. This decline followed a 0.1-percent advance in February and a 0.8-percent
    increase in January.”

  20. ruggles says:

    Here’s a rental for 4 rooms in a Hunterdon McMansion on 7 acres, you have to share the kitchen, but its described as ‘gourmet’. How long before people start moving mattresses in and out during the night in places without traditional illegal populations like Morristown.

    http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/Alexandria-Twp_NJ_08848_1102167541

  21. comrade nom deplume says:

    Just got a notice about a demonstration tomorrow in our complex in Newark. They are all worried about security.

    I did some checking. It’s a TEA Party.

    We should ALL attend a TEA Party, even if you do little more than show up for a few minutes. A sea of bodies helps get the message across. If you are in NYC, help fill up the crowd scene for the cameras.

    For those of you that can possibly attend the Newark TEA Party at One Gateway Center, here’s some added incentive: MEET COMRADE NOM DEPLUME.

    Yes, I plan to be in the crowd for the Newark TEA party. It’s convenient and, after writing the hefty check I just wrote to the IRS instead of my daughter’s college fund, I am as mad as he11 and won’t take it anymore.

    So, come to the Newark TEA party and Meet Comrade Nom Deplume, patriotically festooned in white shirt, grey suit and blue tie with little N.E. Patriots motif all over it.

  22. Wuz_looking says:

    ‘The ARC Mass Transit Tunnel – it will be our era’s George Washington Bridge’
    Leaflet distributed this am on NJ Transit
    ‘with federal funding, we can get shovels in the ground in 2009’

  23. Alap says:

    comrade: saw the same thing. here is a link to all the NJ gatherings…

    http://taxdayteaparty.com/teaparty/new-jersey/

  24. Alap says:

    comrade: here is link to all the NJ tea parties for tomm…

    http://taxdayteaparty.com/teaparty/new-jersey/

  25. grim says:

    From MarketWatch:

    U.S. core PPI up 3.8% in past 12 months

    U.S. PPI down 3.5% in past 12 months, down most since 1950

    U.S. March core PPI unchanged vs. 0.1% gain expected

    U.S. March PPI down 1.2% vs. 0.5% dip expected

  26. sas says:

    “Newark TEA Party”

    sounds interesting.
    I may attend for fun.

    but, careful with these demonstrations.
    be on alert for Fed provacators.

    you see someone being a little rowdy or calling for violence, rest assured thats a local cop or Fed. Just follow them…. you will see them change cloths and get in and out of unmarked cars.

    Oldest trick in the book, send some of your own in their to stir the pot, make sure the media sees it so they can spin the story and say “look at these radicals”, and then now you have the support of the public and can increase the level of control over the people’s demonstration. and hence… quelch thoughts and opposite points of view.

    SAS

  27. grim says:

    From MarketWatch:

    U.S. retail sales slump 1.1% in March

    U.S. retail sales dropped a seasonally adjusted 1.1% in March, the Commerce Department reported Tuesday, after two months’ of gains had boosted hopes of a rebound in consumer spending. Sales for January and February were revised higher in Tuesday’s report by 0.4 percentage points, but the results were still much weaker than expected by economists, who thought sales would rise 0.2% in March. Sales fell for almost every type of store except the necessities of food and drugs. Sales of durable goods were particularly soft in March.

  28. grim says:

    Here’s a rental for 4 rooms in a Hunterdon McMansion on 7 acres, you have to share the kitchen, but its described as ‘gourmet’.

    What? Are you kidding me? Renting out a portion of a McMansion to boarders?

    Wow.

    You know, a few years back a few folks thought we would see the exurb McMansion communities turn into slums.

    Is that even legal?

  29. comrade nom deplume says:

    [22] alap,

    Saw that, but like many, I am tied to a job I have to keep.

    But the Newark TEA party is right in my backyard, so I have to go.

    Seriously folks, if you are fed up about spending, and whether you are on the left or right, you are fed up with what has been happening, GO TO A TEA PARTY.

    Try to pick one in a location that is sure to get some media. Newark is better than Morristown. NYC is best, needless to say.

    Like I said, I will be in Newark, handing out teabags (decaf — no one likes those anyway).

    12:00- Newark Penn Station — Meet Nom Deplume and support your country.

  30. comrade nom deplume says:

    [25] SAS

    Been around enough of these to know how to read a crowd and when to stay clear.

    Heck, working in DC for 5 years teaches you a lot about the flow and dynamic of a demonstration, and how the police handle them. The DC chief (name escapes me now) was quite imaginative in neutralizing demonstrations, sometimes before they could start.

  31. comrade nom deplume says:

    [25] SAS

    Besides, in this crowd, an anarchist or agent posing is gonna stick out like a sore thumb.

  32. Shore Guy says:

    “after writing the hefty check I just wrote to the IRS instead of my daughter’s college fund”

    I hear you there. My daughter saw the quarterly check I wrote to the IRS and said, “Dad, wouldn’t that pay for year at (named an I’ve League school)?” and I said yes. Then she said, “You and Mom pay this every three months?” and I told her yes and also send payments to (and showed her the stack of state estimated payments. So she wisely asked why it was that she had to worry about how we were going to pay for her school while paying so much (she is also a fair-sized taxpayer) to fund programs for others who end up getting tax stimulus checks, college aid, etc.

    So I looked at her and said, “Welcome to the Republican Party.” Would that the national leadership, state for that matter too, more like TR.

  33. sas says:

    “Besides, in this crowd, an anarchist or agent posing is gonna stick out like a sore thumb”

    they sometimes too hire dumb kids off the streets to cause a little stir, and then they give them about $500 cash payoff behind closed doors or some deranged homeless man.

    In any case…
    SAS

  34. comrade nom deplume says:

    [25] SAS

    “I may attend for fun. but, careful with these demonstrations. be on alert for . . . someone being a little rowdy or calling for violence”

    SAS, isn’t that your idea of fun???

  35. sas says:

    “MTA Official Says Fares Hikes May Happen Twice This Year”
    http://tinyurl.com/dm9xwp

  36. comrade nom deplume says:

    [32] sas

    Local Newark youth or homeless dudes would be the most obvious outsiders you could find for this crowd.

    They wouldn’t stick out like a sore thumb; they would stick out like gangrene.

  37. Shore Guy says:

    Gator/Stu,

    Heading to NOLA? If you go, give my regards to Commanders.

  38. zieba says:

    RE: 9

    You need to ask yourself; WHY? Why would I want to live in a sub 400K house in this enclave of class of a town, when for mere half a million more you can live like a god among mortals in THIS!

    http://newjersey.craigslist.org/reb/1083595522.html

    That’s right, nine hundred twenty five thousand dollars, you can now own under seven figures in Secaucus. Your dream has arrived, bring yer checkbook.

    PS- Humor is not David’s strong suite and he’s got an eager attorney on retainer.

  39. Shore Guy says:

    Zieba,

    I hear the house has a wonderful personality.

  40. ruggles says:

    http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/Bridgewater-Twp_NJ_08807_1106990920

    another house share in bridgewater — only 750/month but you don’t get two baths. I’d guess roomate situations are legal depending on the number of unrelated adults the town allows in one unit but its just tacky.

  41. sas says:

    you think I’m full of bs some of you blog heads.

    “ACLU wants probe into police-staged DNC protest”
    http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_10920817

  42. Shore Guy says:

    ” legal depending on the number of unrelated adults the town allows in one unit but its just tacky.”

    Belmar used to try to regulate the number of “unrelated” people living in a structure and the ordinance was struck-down as unconstitutional.

  43. Sean says:

    comrade –

    Kudlow was going off last night on the Tea Party, and his commentators called it an AstroTurf campaign.

    If you really want to get your blood boiling for tomorrows Tea Party read up on the latest law in NJ for School Funding.

    A little know reform was put in the law last year in the “School Funding Reform Act of 2008” This new school funding law guarantees that each municipality and city must raise school spending by at minimum. Any effort to lower spending will be rejected by the State which must approve the budgets.

    For example after the School board of Lake Cuomo submitted their budget with a modest 16k budget cut proposal for approval to the State, it was quickly rejected by the Corzine administration because of a law that makes it illegal for school boards to decrease the amount that they tax their residents.

    Also the school budget is put up for approval by the taxpayers in ballot vote each year, which the cities and towns pay for. No matter what the results are of that vote by the taxpayers, the town still must pass the School Budgets with a minimum increase or it will be rejected by the Corzine Administration.

  44. sas says:

    imagine, if that was you on that OR table…
    but hey don’t worry.. it was only a “minor procedure”

    “Dean Health nurse laid off mid-surgery”
    http://www.madison.com/wsj/mad/latest/446920

    -A Dean Health System manager removed a nurse from a minor surgical procedure last week — in violation of medical protocol — in order to lay her off, a spokesman for the company confirmed Monday.

  45. NJGator says:

    Shore 36 – We are indeed heading there for the first weekend of Jazzfest.

    Does the NOLA Commanders offer the same 25 cent Martini lunch that the LV outpost did? If so, I am in trouble.

  46. comrade nom deplume says:

    [42] sean

    my blood is already boiling. I see so much from my vantage point that tells me the bolshevik hordes are approaching the gates (or will be in our lifetimes).

    My retirement planning has taken a tack that experts generally advise against: being tax-focused. The old rule was to not let the tax tail wag the dog. But like so many others, that rule is out the window.

    Going forward, when you can effectively double your yield by making it nontaxable, the tail is the dog.

    Funding my children’s future is going in directions I had thought farfetched, but we are in a brave new world.

    Showing up at a rally for 20 minutes that is more convenient than going to lunch is the least I can do.

  47. ruggles says:

    41 – thats true, can’t define what a family is. but there still must be an occupancy law based on fire codes, adults and number of bedrooms. maybe? i know morristown was always looking for homes with people living in the attics and basements. A house burned down there and they found 21 mattresses inside. what they could do once they found thes overstuffed houses, I don’t know.

  48. Shore Guy says:

    Gator,

    I have never been to the one in LV. The one in NOLA does a nice Jazz Brunch on Sundays. It will require Stu to ignore the price and have fun anyway. The turtle soup is always out of this world as is the gumbo yaya. Are you staying in the Quarter or up in the Garden District?

  49. Shore Guy says:

    Nom,

    If I thought that policy makers were being honest with the public and themselves, I would feel less uneasy, even if the “other side’s” policies were at odds with those I support. My great fear is that so many people are of the mind “it will all workout somehow, it always does” and are not taking the actions necessary to allow things to work out — for the best, anyway.

  50. NJGator says:

    Shore 47 – We are having a good music, good food, drinking and gambling trip. Stu, being Stu, has gotten free rooms for us at both Harrah’s in NOLA and Harrah’s in Biloxi.

    I will make Stu cough up for Commander’s Brunch. He apparently can get reimbursed for it from his Total Rewards comp balance.

    In any event, I am just looking forward to some fun. I haven’t been back to NOLA since my college days. We used to go regularly for New Year’s to see the Gators play in the Sugar Bowl.

    I am not used to luxurious accomodations in NOLA. On my first trip there, we squeezed 11 people into a room at the Days Inn since they were charging $300/night for the room. On future trips, we used to bunk with the Gator Band for free since my roommate played in the band.

    I have vague memories (blurred by alcohol) of roaming the city drunk with my hot LSAT instructor trying to help him find his friend “pencil neck” (some other poor drunk college student who was apparently wearing a party hat). Fun times.

  51. Secondary Market says:

    that’s nice. so those of us that live in the city get to deal with the degenerates with no benefit. not that i would consider $200 justified compensation…

    DL says:
    April 14, 2009 at 7:57 am

    Why they call them one-armed bandits…

    “Pennsylvania homeowners outside of Philadelphia will for the second year receive at least $200 in property-tax reductions from slot-machine gambling revenue, Gov. Rendell said yesterday.

  52. gary says:

    zieba [37],

    That is beautiful. I suspect that the world would go black, vegetation would cease to grow and cockaroaches would inherit the earth and still… the price would not change on this home.

  53. John says:

    Hey I am back, and what the heck is Shore guy going to swallow?

    Lets see while I was gone during Lent Gold was supposed to blow threw $1,000 on the upside and the banks were all going to be nationlized, not. Stocks were on the verge of complete meltdown and we were stockpiling guns and ammo, not. The one constant is real estate which is sagging quicker that a 40 year old sun worshipper.

    BTW the whole world is in a case of moral decay. Last night was flipping channels at 8pm and on HIMYM they told the “what is the difference between peanutbutter and jam joke”!!! OMG that is as bad as the relative humidity joke. I guess they waited till the day after Easter, but come one now. Kids off from school and Passover and we get the peanutbutter/jam joke on network tv at 8am.

    For you guys who don’t know that one the answer is “I can’t peanutbutter my #### up your ###.

  54. Shore Guy says:

    Gator,

    Sometime when Stu is willing to part with a few more bucks and you are looking for a romanitc couple’s weekend not governed by saving a single cent on anything, this is a lovely spot. It has the nicest courtyard in the city and is an easy walk to everything. The place is Old World and full of charm.

    http://www.hotelmaisondeville.com/

  55. Shore Guy says:

    It has been said that Lotteries and other forms of gambling are just taxes on the stupid. I don’t know about that but they are taxes on the willing, anyway.

    I suspect we could fund the entire state government with lotteries were we interested in doing so. Things like, for just $10, win a chance to have the State pay your property tax this year. Or, free Parkway travel for a year, just try a $5 scratch-off ticket. Yadda, yadda.

  56. Alap says:

    comrade, i work in newark as well, maybe i will see you there.

  57. homeboken says:

    Stan – would you mind sharing your findings in the Hoboken rental marktet? I am in the same boat as you and would love to pool some knowledge. If so, you can get my email from grim.

  58. Shore Guy says:

    “what the heck is Shore guy going to swallow?”

    The only thing I am swallowing is my rage at out-of-control taxes. If we were paying the same tax and actually paying-off the debt, I would be okay with it; however, we are getting taxed like mad and we STILL can’t seem to get our governments’ fiscal houses in order. It is pathetic.

  59. Shore Guy says:

    “the over/under condrum”

    I am afraid to even ask what that is. And on that note, it is back to work.

  60. Pat says:

    Welcome, back, John.

    You were missed.

    condrum.

  61. John says:

    Hey if you voted for the big O you are getting what you deserve, priate tales and puppy dogs are the news stories out of the white house, not taxes and defciets, that is so not of interest to the utube crowd.

    Shore Guy says:
    April 14, 2009 at 10:10 am
    “what the heck is Shore guy going to swallow?”

    The only thing I am swallowing is my rage at out-of-control taxes. If we were paying the same tax and actually paying-off the debt, I would be okay with it; however, we are getting taxed like mad and we STILL can’t seem to get our governments’ fiscal houses in order. It is pathetic.

  62. Pat says:

    what’s a chick lit novel. Is that like Chiclet or Chick Flick?

  63. Pat says:

    Oh, I wiki’d it.

  64. Shore Guy says:

    “Hey if you voted for the big O you are getting what you deserve”

    Surely, you confuse me with someone else. Anyone who was paying attention could see Obomunism on the horizon were B.O. elected. So far, B.O. stinks.

  65. NJGator says:

    Shore 55 – Thanks for the rec. We are going to go to the Jazz Brunch at Commander’s on Sunday the 26th. It will be a nice send off before we head to Biloxi.

    I’ll report back on the Martinis.

  66. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Gubmints got the whole team out today flapping their gums talking up the economy. What gives?

  67. Shore Guy says:

    Cheap shore house. Fly to USVI and make a vacation out of the trip home via the Inland Waterway.

    http://www.yachtauctions.com/detail.asp?stockNo=19506

  68. make money says:

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?play=1&video=1091592586

    buy boats in Florida and sell in Greece and make double.

  69. jcer says:

    BO has so far turned out to be what I thought he would be GWB in a BO suit. Besides some of his social positions, the core is the same rotten and owned by GS, Citi, et al. Next time when the tax check is written tell your children instead of funding retirement, or college, or even just blowing it on something fun like a car or boat, you are paying for those poor investment banks and bankers that needed our help. Just think your tax dollars help Joe the Trader continue to do coke off strippers and hire $5000 an hour prostitutes. Seems like a reasonable use of tax payer money!

  70. grim says:

    GS raises $5b.

    Way to go!

    So much for TARP helping anything. Does no good when banks are clamoring pay it back. Is it too early to call TARP a failure?

    This move by GS sets a major precedent, look for many others to follow (or at least attempt to follow).

    Remember the ol’ environmental science adage, “Dilution is the solution to pollution!”

  71. John says:

    Lots of green shoots today. Actually the credit markets have healed a lot. I supposedly gave up trading for Lent but my wife told me to sell if I have to and buy if I have to. Well mid March once again an industry went crazy and it bacame apparant any day now the big O would throw them a lifeline. I bought a bunch of insurance bonds in March for 50 cents on a dollar. Heck I Hartford bond with a 16% yield, XL Senior bond with an 19% yieldm CNA 16% yield AIG 35% and Ford and CIT at 40% yield. Insurance bonds yields as well as bank bond yields are almost down 1,000 basis points since mid march. That is amazing. Even crazier since mid Feb Ford long term bonds are up 105%, they were yielding 40% now 18%. That is a 2,200 basis point move in eight weeks.

    Ben and O are playing wack a mole but they are winning. Jobless people can’t buy houses and the people with cash won’t buy a house while you can buy safe high yielding bonds. Hey credit where credit is due, the muni bond market is nomalized and corporates are getting there too. Stocks are rising as they already killed yields on savings, MBS, cds and munis and corporates are getting beaten. The money is moving to stocks then RE. This is a classic jobless recovery. Good short term, but very bad long term unless you want to be India where the population consists of rich people and servants living in shacks with no middle class. The master needs good locks on the door if he wants to get any sleep.

  72. make money says:

    Grim 74

    Smart move. Watch everyone else follow.

  73. grim says:

    From the APP:

    Pay gap myth debunked again

    If we’ve heard the defense for paying government workers generous benefits once, we’ve heard it 1,000 times — they help compensate for salaries that are lower than those paid in the private sector.

    That may have been true a couple of decades ago. But it hasn’t been for years — and it is less so today than ever.

    According to newly released data from the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics, the compensation gap between public and private-sector employees continues to grow. Not only are the benefits of public employees more generous, but so are the wages.

    Overall total compensation for state and local workers in December 2008 was $39.25 an hour — $11.90, or 44 percent, more than in private business. A year earlier, the gap was $11.31.

    Public employee benefits were 68 percent higher than those paid private-sector workers — $13.38 an hour versus $7.98. Annualized, that equates to $27,830 for the average government worker and $16,598 for the average employee in the private sector. Last year, the cost of public-sector benefits rose three times more than those in the private sector — up 69 cents for government workers and 23 cents for private-sector employees.

    According to the study, the public-private wage gap has remained about the same since 2002. But for every $1-an-hour pay increase, public employees have received $1.17 in new benefits compared to 58 cents for private workers.

    For years, we’ve pointed to how New Jersey’s benefits packages for public employees — health insurance, pension payouts and excessive holidays and sick pay — have broken the backs of taxpayers. The latest data show this is a national problem.

  74. scribe says:

    John is back!

    John, we missed ya

  75. grim says:

    Interesting bit over at Barry’s blog..

    http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/04/how-to-puff-up-earnings-goldman-sachs-style/

    Leave it to the clever boys at Goldman Sachs to turn dross into gold: They have come up with a way to hide massive losses so clever, it requires special comment: The Orphan Month.

  76. comrade nom deplume says:

    [57] alap

    I said look for the N.E. Patriots tie, but it occurs to me that the flying elvis may be ubiquitous as folks look for patriotic themes.

    I once went to a Buffett concert and told my friends “look for the car with the shark fin on top.” D’oh!!!

    Maybe I will wear a Pats cap as well, so that my patriotism is clear. Also to disguise me in case some of our partners attend the rally.

  77. RayC says:

    Nom,

    If you want people to hear your message, and be wary of you, wearing Boston area sporting gear should show just the right amount of mental instability to instill fear. :)

  78. gary says:

    The Messiah is at the podium… a rock star applause… man, he is the best ever!

  79. Alap says:

    hey stan, saw that you are apt hunting in hobo. I am looking at 2br’s apts there as well. can you share the listings/links to those 2 you are talkin about, and maybe any other ones you’ve come across?

  80. make money says:

    Grim 78

    Good stuff. Happy to hear that my Srs and SKF loads last week are looking mighty green and alot greener in the next few months.

    O speaking on the economy I bet we take a dive of 1% on DOW.

  81. Sastry says:

    Shore #31…

    You seriously mean to say that you pay one years’ college fee equivalent *every quarter*, and find it difficult to set aside four such quarters’ worth over a long time?

    I recall you saying your business was complicated, etc., but based on what you say you make, saving for college education should be noise in the data…

    It is one thing to complain that you are paying too much, but it is difficult to believe that you pay so much that you can’t save for kids’ college.

    S

  82. stan says:

    Will post links when I have the time. Can get my email from grim

  83. Sastry says:

    Grim #72…

    I think GS didn’t/doesn’t need TARP. They have the AIG feeding trough that keeps on giving.

    S

  84. Sastry says:

    Nom…

    Can a non-tea-party guy make fun of the tax complainers when they claim they want to “teabag” each other? Will there be a chance of a fight?

    I’ll carry a sign saying, “I disagree with, but support the rights of teabaggers gathered here” :)

    S

  85. Shore Guy says:

    Sastry,

    It would much easier to pay for one’s own needs if the government wer not such a profligate spender of our money. With so much going from our accounts to the government, it does not leave much left once daily living expenses are taken care of.

    If I might note, you seem to have strong opinions about how easy other people have things. Your comment that, “It is one thing to complain that you are paying too much, but it is difficult to believe that you pay so much that you can’t save for kids’ college” tells me that you have no experience as a HENRY. Were you in our situation, it would be abundantly clear how one can earn a good income and yet not be rolling in cash.

    In a world where returns are in the 3%range, for the self-employed amongst us, one needs to have in excess of $6 million in income-producing assets to maintain a moderately-comfortable middle-class life in retirement.

    Sastry, I mean no offense but, it strikes me that you are a person who has either not worked hard or has not had the breaks to get ahead economically. I cast no aspersions at you, for success is as much a matter of luck as it is work or talent. That said, for you to presuppose to understand the circumstances faced by those of us who have is profoundly ignorant and it does not reflect well upon you.

    Instead of criticizing those of us who share information that sheds light on the utter dysfunction of our current tax code, it seems to me that you would do well to listen and learn.

  86. BC Bob says:

    Sastry [86],

    Yes, AIG is the new feeder fund. Funny, we bring criminal charges against UBS for conspiring to defraud the US. At the same time, we prop them up thru the AIG feeder fund.

  87. Alap says:

    Stan – 85

    Thanks for the help!

  88. Zack says:

    Just think of all the bailouts as infrastructure projects. We are rebuilding Wallstreet.
    Is it better to fill potholes and repaint bridges or bailout the banks?

  89. chicagofinance says:
  90. 2 Cents says:

    Here are the marginal tax rates under Reagan –

    Tax Rate Over But Not Over
    0.0% $0 $3,670
    11.0% $3,670 $5,940
    12.0% $5,940 $8,200
    14.0% $8,200 $12,840
    16.0% $12,840 $17,270
    18.0% $17,270 $21,800
    22.0% $21,800 $26,550
    25.0% $26,550 $32,270
    28.0% $32,270 $37,980
    33.0% $37,980 $49,420
    38.0% $49,420 $64,750
    42.0% $64,750 $92,370
    45.0% $92,370 $118,050
    49.0% $118,050 $175,250
    50.0% $175,250 –

    According to the rants of some commentators over here, Reagan must have been Lenin re-incarnated.

  91. John says:

    sastry, what happens to the other 99% if only the top 1% gets a good education.

    40 year olds in executive positions and six figure salaries in the US are quite often b or c students in HS and in college at best a b student. The asian technique which pretty much is based on your grades as a 10-14 year old is a little bit nuts. If I don’t get good grades in 7-8 grades can’t go to good HS which means I can’t go to good college. Talk about pressure. Most of my buddies who chased skirts and exceled at spring break and keg parties are grown up now with a wife a few kids and a six figure salary. The fact they were goof offs as teenagers does not matter in the USA. But in most of Asia these kids would have been written off before their sweet sixteen.

  92. Laurie says:

    Gary…back a few days ago you were talking about 1 Decker Ct, Mahwah and I told you that the neighborhood was very wet. I looked it up again today and I was wrong, that’s not the neighborhood that I thought it was.The neighborhood of 1 Decker Ct is a very nice neighborhood indeed and quite dry..BUT…you are right by the Bergen County police Shooting range so there is a lot of gun noise.

    Gary…welcome back! We couldn’t live on crushed valor forever.

  93. Shore Guy says:

    Sastry,

    You are a funny man. You got handed a free education, wheras I worked my tail off to pay for mine. You complain about other’s complaining about taxes while you pay but a portion of what some of us pay. You seem to take my statements as bragging, wheras I do not see myself as wealthy by any reasonable economic measure and have never described myself that way or bragged about any asset or amount of money that Mrs. Shore and I have. You also seem tp equate a desire for one to retain more of what one earns as some evil love of money, wheras it is simply a rational desire to enjoy the fruits of one’s considerable labors. It is my opinion that you envy those who you percieve are doing better than you. I, on the otherhand envy no one, not even those who are in fact rich and have the types of lives and experiences about which I cannot even begin to imagine.

    Mrs. Shore and I are frugal, live well within our means, have no debt, have never and will not overextend ourselves, and yet we get to pay huge sums to support government spending that is out of control, and which goes to protect those who did everything wrong. In my opinion, I have paid for the right to speak out against poor government decision making and poor fiscal and tax policies.

    That you seem to fail to comprehend why one in my position would be dissatisfied with tax policy does not surprise me. That you continue to assert that those of us who are experiencing the wrath of the tax code must be mistaken is, frankly, comical. In the final analysis, I could not care less whether you accept what I say. I do know that anytime you want to pay my quarterly tax bill, I will be happy to have you send in an official check on my behalf.

  94. Sastry says:

    John…

    The general consensus was that India was neglecting primary education in favor of higher education. The beneficiaries almost always ended up leaving India anyway (just like me).

    What you say is 100% true. I think one of the founders said, “I study war and engineering, so that my kids can study medicine and sciences, so that their kids can study pottery”… There is a reason why Indians come to US and not the other way round.

    I fear that the new money can kill the strengths of US (opportunities for all, melting pot) and encourage the ills (segregation, xenophobia).

    S

  95. bi says:

    93#, 2 cents, you should pull the numbers prior to reagan for comparison.

  96. Shore Guy says:

    2 Cents,

    In fairness to RR, those tax rates were set by the Democratically-controlled House and Senate.

  97. Sastry says:

    “while you pay but a portion of what some of us pay”, followed by “never described myself that way or bragged about any asset or amount of money”.

    See, what I mean by inconsistency?

    BTW, anyone else educate me (a link will be fine) on how one can theoretically pay 60% income in taxes currently?

    S

  98. HEHEHE says:

    Personal experience past two days walking around Midtown to a couple of doctors appointments is that there are a ton of empty retail spaces all over the place. I particularly noticed that what would be “anchor spaces” (the larger corner retail spaces) are extremely hard hit. I was on 58th and 8th and every corner space was empty. If this is only the beginning of the problem I hate to see how develops.

  99. John says:

    Shore guy, btw the way I love you man!!! My AIG, HIG, SOV, GMAC, CIT, NCC, C, BAC bonds I bought cheap are all paying big interest based on TARP funds. I am using the money to buy more bonds which in turn is driving up prices which in turn is driving down rates and increasing the value of your bond portfolio.

  100. grim says:

    Breaking!

    Obama says beach homes are a bad idea and Manhattan real estate (ie, built-on-rock) is prime…

  101. PA Bound says:

    #31

    So assuming an Ivy leagues tuition is around $35K a year, you pay $140,000 in estimated taxes a year? I would love to be able to say I owe that much tax. You should be thankful you live in a country that allows you to make so much money. Support your country by paying your taxes. F’ing ingrate.

  102. 2 Cents says:

    (99) –
    “you should pull the numbers prior to reagan for comparison.”

    Why? I am comparing Obama to Reagan. According to that comparison, the high income earners are still much more lightly taxed under Obama than under Reagan. Thus, according to the logic used over here, that makes Reagan the original Bolshevik.

    IMO, the problem is not the tax rates, but the unequal distribution of wealth. Real incomes for the majority of Americans have not risen in the last eight years.

    This is a dead end topic. Neither side is going to convince the other.

    BTW, Jon Stewart put it best. This is a democracy and you are obviously not going to like the other sides policy. The fact is that Obama was elected with a majority and it was clear in his campaign that he was going to raise taxes on the high income earners. I am surprised at the hulla-baloo raised over here.
    I was not happy when Bush cut taxes on the upper 5%. Now, it is the Repubs turn to feel pissed. This is one of the few issues that I agree with Obama. Otherwise, he is just Bush Lite, transferring wealth from the taxpayers to the banksters.

    Also, nationalisation of AIG, FRE, FNM happened under Bush’s watch. OTOH, Obama decided to let GM go bankrupt.

  103. Shore Guy says:

    John,

    Methinks you have me confused with someone else. I have never discussed bonds here.

  104. Ben says:

    #71 jcer, just wait until we get the next George Bush in office. Obama is George W. Bush part Deux. But you look at the next GW, his nephew, the guy literally looks like he’s the offspring of GW and BO. Kinda scary.

    http://blogs.tampabay.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/24/georgepbush_2.jpg

  105. chicagofinance says:

    PA Bound says:
    April 14, 2009 at 1:07 pm
    #31 So assuming an Ivy leagues tuition is around $35K a year, you pay $140,000 in estimated taxes a year?

    PA: To update to 2009 figures: tuition should be more in the $40K-$45K per year range, with all-in full freight cost in the $55K area per year.

  106. Ben says:

    I filed my tax return yesterday. I took a good look at those Social Security/Medicaid taxes and just shook my head. I’m only 28 and still in school. I don’t even want to know how much the people who actually make money pay into these Ponzi Schemes.

  107. comrade nom deplume says:

    [101] sastry,

    No link, and no detailed explanation, but it is possible, and possible to go even higher, depending on the tax “profile” of the taxpayer.

    Just for starters:

    39% US income tax rate
    7.65% payroll tax rate (federal)
    9.5% (roughly) NJ Income tax rate
    0.5% state surtaxes and payroll tax items

    That is simply income taxes. It will be higher if there is a city income tax or foreign taxes that don’t qualify for the foreign tax credit.

    Now, that gets us to 56-57% without even adding in sales taxes, excise taxes, property taxes, and other tax-like fees and revenue enhancers.

    Suffice it to say, someone in the top income brackets can easily pay taxes upwards of 60% on income, if that income is earned income or short term gain.

    By contrast, those that are truly idle rich can have an effective income tax rate of 15% or less if they simply live off dividends, tax exempt interest and LT cap gains.

    Hope that helps.

  108. grim says:

    So assuming an Ivy leagues tuition is around $35K a year, you pay $140,000 in estimated taxes a year? I would love to be able to say I owe that much tax. You should be thankful you live in a country that allows you to make so much money.

    He didn’t say, but I’m not so sure I’d assume that was straight wage income. A small business owner doing a few million dollars in business a year would probably hit that number pretty quickly. But what do I know, I’m not a tax professional and just wanted to throw my 2 cents in.

  109. Shore Guy says:

    “o assuming an Ivy leagues tuition is around $35K a year, you pay $140,000 in estimated taxes a year?”

    The exact amount is unimportant. Think of it this way, “with 2-bedroom units starting at $X.”

    The larger point being we have spending that is out of control. Were the budgets balanced and were we paying down accumulated debt, the amount would seem less absurd.

  110. 2 Cents says:

    “In fairness to RR, those tax rates were set by the Democratically-controlled House and Senate.”

    Shore –

    So, I guess the logic goes like this –

    During Reagan’s regime
    (a) – Anything you disagree with, blame the Congress.
    (b) – Anything you agree with, Reagan’s the man?

    By your logic, if Congress is responsible for the tax rates etc, any “prosperity” during Reagan’s time can also be attributed to the Dem controlled Congress, correct?

  111. John says:

    It is easy to be in 60% in NYC which is triple taxed if you count sales and RE as taxes.

    BTW Sastry, just a social observation, I work with a lot of asians, India, China, Japan etc. An Asian Parent would describe a son or daughter who has excelent grades as a hard worker. I have Asian friends who litteraly did not work during HS or college and Mom and Dad made them do no chores and paid for their school. These kids racked up 3.9s. Most of my crowd were sons of blue collar workers, cops and firemen who had to work during school and help out at home. When you do a four hours a school a day, eight hours of work and and a few hours of chores and have to do your own laundry and car repairs and grocery shopping etc. good luck getting much higher than a B. I remember my older sister setting her alarm clock for 4 am every day so she could study for two hours before people got up at six am. The only table in our house was the kitchen table and with six people in the house that table was occupied from six am till 11pm. Pretty much I recall the choice between finishing chores or homework a daily choice, one got the teacher mad at you the other the belt. Problem is in business you have to be able to juggle multiple things at once and sometimes the son or daughter of the cop has grown up that way and although they can’t excel at school they excel in business.

  112. Shore Guy says:

    “7.65% payroll tax rate (federal)”

    Then double that for the self-employed.

  113. John says:

    just saying your taxes go towards tarp which pays the interest on my bonds. Thanks Big Guy!

    Shore Guy says:
    April 14, 2009 at 1:10 pm
    John,

    Methinks you have me confused with someone else. I have never discussed bonds here.

  114. John says:

    Social Security/Medicaid are not taxes they are paying for your future entitlements.

  115. morpheus says:

    tea bagging?

    Did Fox News and the Republican Party ever consult the “urban dictionary” for the definition of “tea bagging”? chuckle, chuckle, hehehehe, yeah, yeah. . . He said “tea bagging”. Shut up Bevis!

  116. Herring123 says:

    Anybody doing the longest day century or double century bike ride?

    http://www.linuxha.com/other/non-ha/bicycle/LongestDay.html

  117. iamkeithhernandez says:

    PA Bound… i believe you live in the same country that simply “allows” one to make such sums of money as well… why haven’t you been “allowed”?

    could it be that it ain’t so easy and requires a level of drive an effort that you can’t even begin to comprehend?

    what are you doing to “support your country”? sucking its monetary resources dry i bet

  118. Zack says:

    #111

    I am no tax expert but the 39% rate is the highest tax bracket range. This 39% rate is not applied to entire income but rather towards the income that is applicable

  119. Shore Guy says:

    “You should be thankful you live in a country that allows you to make so much money”

    I am. I am also thankful that my ancestors settled here in the 1600s, that they revolted in the 1700s, fought a civil war in the 1800s, and then helped free the world in the 1900s. Now, I see it as an obligation to preserve their legacy and prevent our current representatives from destroying the republic with asinine policies.

    We were bequeathed a great country but it will not remain that way absent sound behavior on the part of the citizenry and their government. Destructive tax and spending policies can ruin a nation faster than a military attack.

  120. Shore Guy says:

    “just saying your taxes go towards tarp which pays the interest on my bonds. Thanks Big Guy!”

    Ahh. Gotcha. Enjoy a nice night on the town, on us.

  121. Sastry says:

    Nom… your numbers make a lot of sense. Though, part of the 7.65% (or 15%) is capped, so at the 0.3M to 1M range, that is non-existent.

    Sales taxes are paid by the buyer (so it is unfair to add to one’s tax liability what someone else is paying!)

    I was excluding property taxes from the equation: I think it is almost a choice (we may pay higher than normal percentile [wrt income] of property taxes because we may decide to stay in a “top school place” [whatever that means] in a “bigger” place).

    Also, when one makes a reasonably large amount as self-employed, the logical step seems to be create an S-corp, dump money in 401k, business expenses, etc., and soon the effective tax rate is much lower. That was my point…

  122. grim says:

    Something odd about the juxtaposition of a $5 million stimulus package for Morristown Airport alongside a photo of a multimillion dollar Citation X jet.

    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/morristown_airport_is_getting.html

    Not sure what the going rate is for a used Citation X is these days, maybe $15 million?

    Got to ask the question, does Morristown airport really need that $5 million? I mean, who flies out of Morristown anyway? If that photo is any indication, why are we subsidizing CEO or private jets?

    Note, the jet pictured is actually owned by netjets, N986QS. But the argument still applies, if you can afford to fly netjets, do you need this stimulus?

  123. Shore Guy says:

    I am off for a meeting. Perhaps someone here can explain AMT, deduction phaseouts, and other such things to the sub $100,000 crowd.

  124. Silera says:

    Whenever anyone voices a complaint about income taxes, it is usually coupled with the statement “my hard earned money”.

    I don’t think Shore meant it that way, but the immediate implication is that those that pay more taxes work harder for it than those that don’t.

    Sometimes, I wish that the movie/fairytale Dave was real and some well meaning accountant would take office make sound financial decisions.

    In the interim- I’ll continue to contribute more to social security than to 401k because my “median” income is impossible to live on.

  125. PA Bound says:

    #123,

    I just think it is ironic how it seems that most of the “teabaggers” are typically Republicans who voted for the people who, in my opinion, got us in this mess in the first place.

  126. Ben says:

    “Did Fox News and the Republican Party ever consult the “urban dictionary” for the definition of “tea bagging”? chuckle, chuckle, hehehehe, yeah, yeah. . . He said “tea bagging”. Shut up Bevis!”

    Someone’s been watching to much Rachel Maddow.

  127. Ben says:

    “Social Security/Medicaid are not taxes they are paying for your future entitlements.”

    Uh huh. Actually, they are paying for someone else’s current entitlements. That’s why they are ponzi schemes. On top of it, the fund is littered with T-Bills, another ponzi scheme. Why is Bernie Madoff in jail again?

  128. Sastry says:

    John #116

    Imagine if the 4.0 GPA kid (easily could be one of my relatives’ kids that are doctors) that had everything paid for, and got 4.0’s from Ivy leagues [after his/her parents got free education from India and settled here]… If he/she complains about taxes, it would seem *cheap*. I’d give my kid a lecture for complaining about taxes.

    My friend was a med rep for big pharma, and he mentioned that many Indian doctors (immigrants) mainly “watch Indian videos and complain about taxes” [of course my doctor friends do not complain about taxes :)].

    S

  129. iamkeithhernandez says:

    some of us teabaggers can’t be there because we’re too busy running our own businesses

    and some of aren’t republicans or democrats but instead think they’re all nuts :)

  130. Sastry says:

    John #104…

    The current taxes will be nothing compared to what we’ll be paying to tackle the national debt, entitlements, etc.

    I’d prefer that my kid has higher taxes/lower income to live in a decent country than lower taxes/higher income to live in a 3rd world country. The options are very limited with the current debt and incoming entitlements.

    I think the new money people can then go to some tropical island and hire a hundred servants… The strength of US has never been just the money, anyway.

    S

  131. BC Bob says:

    It’s possible that this what irks Shore?

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30115091/

  132. Sastry says:

    #134

    “some of us teabaggers can’t be there because we’re too busy running our own businesses”

    I am tempted to make a very offensive joke about teabagging business and how then one has to pay taxes in multiple states and countries, but I will probably be banned…

  133. morpheus says:

    #130

    Maddow said that? Damn, must have missed that. I thought I was being clever.

    OK. . Back to work.

    No props for “Bevis and Butthead”?

  134. John says:

    No need to as you guys don’t pay taxes anyhow.

    Shore Guy says:
    April 14, 2009 at 1:32 pm
    I am off for a meeting. Perhaps someone here can explain AMT, deduction phaseouts, and other such things to the sub $100,000 crowd.

  135. Ben says:

    126 grim, Stimulus money is being handed out by your local Senators and Congressman acting like Santa Clause. At my university, all of our science departments went through a weeks worth of planning (smoke and mirrors) for a visit from a Congressman who was playing Santa Claus last month. This money is all going to be wasted at every level, especially in NJ. Lautenberg is funneling 5 million bucks to an airport that I didn’t even know existed!

  136. RentinginNJ says:

    I’d prefer that my kid has higher taxes/lower income to live in a decent country than lower taxes/higher income to live in a 3rd world country.

    On our current path, your kids will have to pay higher taxes to live in a 3rd world country as their tax dollars will increasingly go toward paying interest on our national debt rather than being put to good use.

    This, of course, assumes that your kids are actually willing to pay the tax bill for the overspending of their parents and don’t simply default and/or print their way out of debt.

  137. Ben says:

    Morpheus,

    the Beavis and Butt-head comment is usually used by Maddow’s favorite guest, Paul Krugman. But she made her urban dictionary comment here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLsKt4O4Yw8

  138. John says:

    Shore guy am I missing something, your family came here over 300 years ago and you still make a five figure salary. Over in main street flushing illegal chinese imigrants who came here 30 years ago have 300K doctors as sons and daughters, what up?

    Shore Guy says:
    April 14, 2009 at 1:27 pm
    “You should be thankful you live in a country that allows you to make so much money”

    I am. I am also thankful that my ancestors settled here in the 1600s, that they revolted in the 1700s, fought a civil war in the 1800s, and then helped free the world in the 1900s. Now, I see it as an obligation to preserve their legacy and prevent our current representatives from destroying the republic with asinine policies.

    We were bequeathed a great country but it will not remain that way absent sound behavior on the part of the citizenry and their government. Destructive tax and spending policies can ruin a nation faster than a military attack.

  139. John says:

    Currently only 10% of the country pay the vast majority of the taxes, the other 90% have a free ride. So my future grandkids only have a 10% chance they have to pay for this mess. So I say lets clean it up now, 7 series, SLs, 911’s and hampton houses and pied a tiers for all of us!!!!

    RentinginNJ says:
    April 14, 2009 at 1:53 pm
    I’d prefer that my kid has higher taxes/lower income to live in a decent country than lower taxes/higher income to live in a 3rd world country.

    On our current path, your kids will have to pay higher taxes to live in a 3rd world country as their tax dollars will increasingly go toward paying interest on our national debt rather than being put to good use.

    This, of course, assumes that your kids are actually willing to pay the tax bill for the overspending of their parents and don’t simply default and/or print their way out of debt.

  140. stan says:

    Sastry- re-taxes, your wrong.

    Pa bound…35k? Keep dreaming, villanova is 48k

  141. John says:

    The International Association of Financial Engineers is pleased to invite you to:
    Policy Issues Facing the Market for Credit Derivatives
    Tuesday, April 28, 2009
    Goldman Sachs
    32 Old Slip
    New York
    5:30 Registration, 6:00 Program Begins, 7:30 Reception
    Speaker:
    Darrell Duffie, Stanford University & IAFE Senior Fellow
    This talk will review policy issues facing the market for credit derivatives.
     What are the netting benefits of central clearing counterparties?
     What guides the migration of some credit derivatives trading onto exchanges?
     What is the potential for improving market transparency?
     To what extent should credit derivatives be regulated as insurance contracts?
    Sponsored by:
    SunGard Adaptiv
    Hosted By:
    Goldman Sachs
    This is a free event, but space is limited. Please register by 5pm on Monday, April 27th
    IAFE Members please login here to register for this event.
    To Join the IAFE please click here.
    All others please click here to register

  142. Sean says:

    Ah AMT and the infamous IRS Form 6251

    You know I was suckered with the Hybrid car tax credit last year. I was lead to believe at the dealer that I would get a nice fat tax credit of $1,500.

    Turns out that if you pay AMT you don’t get it.

    I am thinking of torching my hybrid on the Cross Bronx Expressway and going out and buying a nice new Hummer.

  143. bi says:

    re: tax policy
    as i said here many times, the best tax policy is to apply higher rate to lower income portion. it will encourage people to become rich. most importantly, it should force everyone pay tax even you are making only $1 a year so that you feel you are patriotic.

  144. Shore Guy says:

    “here over 300 years ago and you still make a five figure salary.”

    Two things while at a traffic light:

    First, we pay six figures in taxes.

    Second, we are clearly underachievers who (unlike Daschel, et. al do not) pay all our tax burden.

  145. Sastry says:

    #129… Re, low income:

    A friend of mine told me this story about a guy that was doing a PostDoc-type position at 18k salary for a long time. Eventually he won the Nobel Prize.

    For that matter, Rowling was close to broke before her success. Imagine if tomorrow she starts complaining about taxes.

    When a society provides a safety net to its citizens, some will be willing to take great risks and pursue things far beyond just making money — those things can immensely benefit everyone.

    There is a reason you see crazy scientists discovering miraculous cures or technologies instead of everyone doing “executive MBAs”. There is a need for balance, and a good society provides that. Contrast that with, say, India, where if tomorrow the hot field is hair dressing, you’ll have all kids trying to become barbers right away.

    It’s almost like watching kids’ soccer — everyone runs towards the ball. Imagine if a club match was played like that. Getting to the ball is not the point, doing something useful with the ball, or helping/guiding others do something useful with it, is the point. I can see the analogy breaking down already, but…

    S

  146. Zack says:

    Grim,
    Now that John is back, you will pay more $$ for the extra bandwith.

  147. Sastry says:

    bi #148…

    You are channeling Mary Antoinette?

  148. comrade nom deplume says:

    [127] shore

    “Perhaps someone here can explain AMT, deduction phaseouts, and other such things to the sub $100,000 crowd.”

    Only if they paid me to do so. Besides, it isn’t going to change any minds.

  149. John says:

    Sean if the Hummer weighs enough you can write it off if you own a small business. But what stinks is you can’t write off the sales tax if you make enough to be in AMT.

    If you have money there is zero incentive to buy a new car. No hybrid credit or sales tax write off and who needs financing deals when you can pay with cash. Crazy way to get people to buy new cars only offer rebates to people who are low income earners. GF a person who can afford a new car actually buys one.

  150. HEHEHE says:

    I call the top of the rally is in!

  151. iamkeithhernandez says:

    “When a society provides a safety net to its citizens, some will be willing to take great risks and pursue things far beyond just making money — those things can immensely benefit everyone.”

    sastry… i believe you mentioned you’re from india, no? do you think india’s scientific achievers are coming to america for our safety net or for the chance to make money?

    thank goodness edison, tesla and bell had that government pension to fall back on

  152. John says:

    AMT limits certain preference deductions such as kids and RE taxes. Funny in Germany they are giving tax breaks to college educated people to have kids as it is proven that children of employed educated couples grow up to be productive tax payers so you want to encourage that behavior. In the US we take away the deduction for having kids if you are educated and make a good salary and encourage crack head hos to have kids via free welfare and walmart clerks to reproduce via child tax credits.

  153. John says:

    Re 155, actually they like to watch the Big Bang Theory and it is not on TV in India.

  154. Pat says:

    Sastry, you must believe that there has always been “new money” in this country.

    There is nothing new under the sun. New money is money. But it’s money that hasn’t yet learned to keep quiet. New money is defensive money, which is a “public” good. Defensive money benefits society in much the same way as clean air.

    And John’s right about multitasking. I’d rather have a State University grad who worked FT and paid his own way working for me, than a 4.0 Asian. I’m not saying that each Asian would bring the same painful learning curve – only that it’s just not worth the risk when I could simply hire the shark right out of the tank.

    The only issue there is how quickly our soci@list path eliminates the benefits of being a shark.

  155. Sastry says:

    John and Nom…

    We’ve most likely hit the AMT limits at times. We have always taken the standard deductions (not eligible for IRA deduction, etc.) No mortgage/property taxes (no rental rebate too), so… can’t relate to AMT at all! Even the pittance of charity money we give is after tax.

    S

  156. Sastry says:

    #156…

    US has a much higher standard for graduate research. That was one reason. Other was better monetary prospects.

    I think only in the US can I not dread the prospect that my kid will be a “struggling writer” or a social worker, a public defender, or work for a non-profit [no, not non-profit medical hospital!].

    S

  157. John says:

    Sastry, AMT does not matter for charitable contributions, for now. I would not be giving money to anything that is charity that is not deductable, that is a red flag. My indian co-workers do it when they send money to india and they is no assurance the money gets to anyone needy. Plus lots of “so called charities overseas” are on the OFAC list and are fronts for terroist activities. BTW if you give money to someone on the OFAC list you are subject to a personal $250,000 fine and possible imprisionment. There are IRS recognized charities where you get a deduction that will forward the money to where you want it to go and ensure it is used for charity and not for terroist financing.

    BTW you can not take the standard deduction all the time. State Income tax alone can drive you to AMT, plus kids get you there too, in that case if you take the standard deduction instead of itemizing which results in lower taxes you are breaking the law.

  158. bi says:

    each time when congress does a hearing or omama speaks, the market tanks. now
    benenke is speaking, the market starts come back a bit. geither is a wild card. good news to ultrashorts holders: the congress is back next week.

  159. Shore Guy says:

    “Even the pittance of charity money we give is after tax. ”

    For someone who takes pleasure at pointing out the benefits of paying high taxes to benefit the less fortunate, this takes the cake. Charitable donations are only patiall deductible even for those who are not under AMT, thus they are, in essence, a voluntary tax. Until you step up to the plate and make serious contributions to charity, you should not have the gall to speak about anyone else’s tax burden.

    Cough-up 5-figures in charitable contributions there Sastry before extolling the virtues ofhigh taxes on those above your pay grade.

  160. Sastry says:

    Pat #159…

    “The only issue there is how quickly our soci@list path eliminates the benefits of being a shark.”

    The upward migration of wealth will reward the 4.0 Asian much more than the hard working kid from a low/middle class background. Every Indian parent that I know (including me) has laid the groundwork for full college expenses for starters… All the kids need to do is study — like we did back in India.

    What chance would a kid growing up on a farm have if there are no need-based scholarships, no additional funding for education, etc. Join military and fight Iran??

    At my income level, may be I should just keep quiet and do what I did when W won — cash my $300 rebate, pay lower taxes, and watch “Operation Iraqi Freedom” on TV. Personally, lower tax rates will benefit me quite a bit, but I feel the price we will pay is not worth the few bucks. Something along the lines of people shopping at Walmart [high cost of low prices].

    S

  161. Sastry says:

    Shore,

    Are you compensating for something with your talk of “big income”?

    S

  162. grim says:

    From Editor and Publisher:

    ‘Jersey Journal’ Survival Plan Lays Off 17, Expands Local News

    NEW YORK The reorganization plan to keep The Jersey Journal of Jersey City publishing includes the layoffs of 17 employees — five in the newsroom — as well as cutbacks in single-copy distribution sites and an increased emphasis on local news.

  163. iamkeithhernandez says:

    sastry, you seem filled w/wonderful memories of how great it was back in india and also w/much angst towards the country that you came to for greater opportunities for you and your family… seems odd

  164. zieba says:

    Sastry,

    Give it up already, or take it off line.
    Let’s all focus on the real evil here: ChiFi’s love of DM.

  165. morpheus says:

    #141

    can he do a good “cornholio” imitation? I suspect Krugman would not debase himself as I would regarding Bevis and Butthead.

  166. morpheus says:

    #168

    Actually, I recently saw the DM video for “wrong”: great song, disturbing video. I liked it!

  167. Sastry says:

    #168… Did I ever say it was wonderful in India? I mentioned that I had subsidized education in a top school — a 1% acceptance rate. I do not wish such competition for my kid.

    If you show me where I say it was wonderful in India and bad in the US, I’ll apologize…

    S

  168. Kanenas says:

    John 95:

    The Days where the “Average” Joe was able to make a six figure salary with no Sweat are OVER. Any of them who lose their Jobs now won’t be able to find anything equivalent for a LONG time. They will have to “Downsize” both in their house and their Lifestyle.

  169. BC Bob says:

    Based on today’s discussion I guess a spring recovery is good as dead for NNJ RE. What’s the date for next year’s Super Bowl? Dejavu, I asked that same question around this time, last year.

  170. grim says:

    New thread!

    Up Up Up!

  171. DL says:

    Taxes in Germany, and Western Europe in general, are much higher than in the U.S. But it appears that they have no where near the waste we have. They use their tax revenue to maintain the roads, build out public transportation, establish a national health care system (I’m not a fan of it but in theory, it exists) provide for higher education, and create and maintain livable cities. I suspect we throw more money at useless patonage than most countries’ generate in GDP. If we spent our taxes wisely, we could probably be able to afford a lot of what will justify future tax increases. Our kleptocracy will do us in.

  172. iamkeithhernandez says:

    your last post said “All the kids need to do is study — like we did back in India” and then went onto talk about how a kid in america growing up on a farm has no chance to make it except from signing up for the military… i respectfully disagree- not saying that that kid on the farm has it as easy as the kid in short hills but it happens all the time

    sorry if i construe a knee-jerk negetivity about the US from such beliefs but i guess i do

    and listen, i’m new to the board and wouldn’t rather not have my initial posting be a back and forth between us… i wish you well

  173. Shore Guy says:

    Sastry,

    No offense intended, really, but I find your statements in general and attacks on me in particular quite pathetic. You could search every post on this Web site and every statement I have ever made in person to anyone at any time and you would not find me bragging about Mrs. Shore’s and my income. The only time I have ever mentioned it is in order to set a context for some statement or proposed policy that I was making. If one is for a 50% tax on income above $200,000 and one earns only $100,000 it is very different from one who proposes the same tax and who earns $800,000. Context is important.

    In my opinion you seem to envy me. I canlt help it if you do and, if you do, I urge you to look elsewhere. Mrs. Shore and I are just a couple of middle-aged folks working our @sses off to try and provide a decent home, education, and future for ourselves and our children. We make sizable contributions to both our local community and to the nation, actually.

    We also pay too much in taxes to governments that spend the money unwisely. I don’t know whether you are naturalized or not, and your experience as one not born here no doubt colors your views as my having been born here colors mine. Given my own experiences, I feel no obligation to go along with poorly thought out and poorly executed policies, be they tax, military, or otherwise

  174. make money says:

    John,

    Were have you been? I missed your posts and your positions on long bonds and short common was spot on.

    Without you this board is not the same.

  175. make money says:

    good news to ultrashorts holders: the congress is back next week.

    Bi,

    It’s all gonna be good news to ultrashort holders. Believe that.

  176. NJCoast says:

    John-

    Welcome back. This place was like Pleasantville while you were gone now we’re back to technicolor!

  177. Clotpoll says:

    John (73)-

    Too bad the moles win every time at this game. May not be today or tomorrow, but we are most certainly fuct.

    “Ben and O are playing wack a mole but they are winning.”

  178. Clotpoll says:

    Shore (88)-

    Sastry’s best talent seems to be paralysis by analysis.

  179. firestormik says:

    Sastry says:
    “What you say is 100% true. I think one of the founders said, “I study war and engineering, so that my kids can study medicine and sciences, so that their kids can study pottery”… There is a reason why Indians come to US and not the other way round”

    Just from my experience.
    I’ve rarely met\spoken with a really knowledgeable Indian. Most of you guys say “will do” (with the head shaken side to side) but never do. So whatever you said about your education is just weird.

Comments are closed.