A closer look inside short sales

From the Star Ledger:

The long and short of short-selling homes

But Goldie Sommer, a real estate attorney and agent, said there is no reason why anyone can’t navigate a short sale.

Sommer, a principal at Fairfield-based Sommer and Engelhart, has overseen more than 250 short-sale deals over the past two years.

Your Business took a closer look at short sales with Sommer:

Q. Can anyone apply for a short sale?

A. Yes, you can even do a short sale on government-backed (HUD loans) and FHA loans. Many of my short sales are on government-backed loans.

The restrictions for short sales of a government-backed loan pertain to the purchase of a subsequent home with government backed funds (FHA funds), not the short sale of one.

Q: How does a short sale affect your credit score?

A. I can’t give you exact numbers. But I’ve heard it’s about 50 points off your FICO (score) versus 200 on a foreclosure. And it doesn’t say foreclosure on your credit report. It will say “mortgage paid not full amount.” So, everybody knows. But my clients are so upset. They are devastated, because they always had good credit. I tell them, you don’t stick out as an unusual case because everyone is going to have this on their credit score.

Q. What’s the sticking point for people in New Jersey?

A. In our state, lienholders are allowed to pursue homeowners for any deficiency under a short sale. We have found that we encounter more problems negotiating the short sale with the second mortgage holder than with the first, especially if the second loan is high.

I do not believe this problem is addressed under the new rules and will continue to be an issue for our homeowners if they have second mortgages.

Q. How long does the process take?

A. If you are lucky, you can get a short sale approved in as little as two or three months. But we’ve seen them take as long as a year.

That doesn’t mean that the bank won’t go forward with a foreclosure. They will, and they usually do. Normally, however, the house will get approved for short sale well before a house goes up for a sheriff sale.

When an approval is received on a short sale, the typical letter states that we have 30 days from approval to close title. The buyer must scramble to obtain financing, order title work, survey, etc. in a short amount of time. The new rules will give homeowners a minimum of 90 days to close. This is a big plus.

This entry was posted in Economics, Foreclosures, New Jersey Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

453 Responses to A closer look inside short sales

  1. Shore Guy says:

    Is a lowball on a short sale a short short?

  2. Schumpeter says:

    Interesting false flag article at ZH:

    “You can’t call it a conspiracy theory when the government itself admits it.

    And this is not just ancient history:

    Jimmy Carter’s former National Security Adviser – Zbigniew Brzezinski – told the Senate that a terrorist act might be carried out in the U.S. and falsely blamed on Iran to justify war against that nation

    A retired 27-year CIA analyst who prepared and presented Presidential Daily Briefs and served as a high-level analyst for several presidents, would not put it past the government to “play fast and loose” with terror alerts and warnings and even events themselves in order to rally people behind the flag.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/article/governments-admit-they-carry-out-false-flag-terror

  3. grim says:

    From the Courier Post:

    Bedminster Township named No. 1 Top Town by N.J. Monthly

    Bedminster Township has been named New Jersey Monthly Magazine’s number one town in the state for 2010 in the magazine’s list of Top Towns.

    The magazine apparently couldn’t say enough about the township, citing its relatively low taxes, overall low population density, horse farms, its historic villages of Pluckemin, Bedminster, Lamington and Pottersville and “”charming” local real estate.

    The township wasn’t the only Central Jersey community cited by New Jersey Monthly as a Top Town. Millstone Borough was number 11; Peapack-Gladstone ranked as 14; East Amwell Township was 15; Berkeley Heights was 19; Bernards Township was 22; and Tewksbury Township ranked as 26th on
    the list on http://www.njmonthly.com.

  4. Schumpeter says:

    Lots of good short sales in Bedminster, Peapack & Tewks…

  5. Shore Guy says:

    Short sale defined by Wimpy:

    I will gladly repay you $300,000 on Tuesday for a $500,000 mortgage loan today.

  6. Shore Guy says:

    ” Pottersville ”

    Pottersville? Don’t you mean Bedford Falls?

  7. Shore Guy says:

    ” Pottersville ”

    Pottersville? Don’t you mean Bedford Falls?

  8. Essex says:

    Ol’ Nashville’s a nice town. Got lots o’ family in Bellemeade. Good place! Would do it in heartbeat.

  9. grim says:

    Here until Thursday, don’t know if I’m going to have much of a chance to look around.

  10. Shore Guy says:

    I am not a big fan of Mitt Romney but he is right about the comparison to France, if we don’t get our act together NOW:

    http://politics.foxnews.mobi/quickPage.html?page=23888&external=181585.proteus.fma

  11. Schumpeter says:

    Wildwood ranks dead last on that list? Lower than Irvington or Camden?

    Obviously flawed methodology.

  12. Schumpeter says:

    Shore (10)-

    Somebody should tell Mitt to give it a rest. It’s way too late. We are well into our Third World jerkwater phase.

    The time to respond was 4-5 years ago. Instead, we demonstrated we’d rather be a cross between Japan and Argentina.

  13. Schumpeter says:

    We produce I-Pods, some medical devices, armaments, paperwork and debt. Not much else.

  14. Schumpeter says:

    Mossad wasn’t the only recent winner in Dubai:

    DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) – Shahar Peer beat top-seeded Caroline Wozniacki of Denmark 6-2, 7-5 on Wednesday, reaching the quarterfinals of the Dubai Championship a year after she was refused a visa to play in the tournament.

    The Israeli had at least one break opportunity on each of Wozniacki’s 10 service games. She had never previously even taken a set off the 2009 U.S. Open finalist in three previous matches.

  15. Shore Guy says:

    Clot,

    I guess that sort of makes us the Alberto Fujimorie of nation states?

  16. Shore Guy says:

    Somewhere I have alternate lyrics to this song that apply to foreclosed borrowers:

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vFwriTnDLKs&rl=yes&hl=en&gl=US&client=mv-google

    When I get back to the office, I will try to remember to look for them.

  17. make money says:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748703798904575069861927920520.html?mod=WSJ_HomeAndGarden_sections_Commercial#articleTabs_comments

    Cheers to the work of Larry Summers. A brilliant economist and an investment wizard.(sarcasm off)

  18. Shore Guy says:

    ” Lower than Irvington or Camden?”

    Not as close as Irvington is to Manhattan, the only thing that matters. And, the fishing at the Camden Aquarium is better than that right off shore; Camden is also closer to all Philly has to offer.

  19. confused in NJ says:

    Berkeley Heights was 19

    I’ve lived in both New Providence and Berkeley Heights, and would pick New Providence over Berkeley Heights every time. Study is flawed.

  20. Shore Guy says:

    From the GM BK. Who would have ever figured there would be folls who could draw so much blood from a stone?

    http://m.detnews.com/news.jsp?key=602404&rc=top

  21. Shore Guy says:

    folls is really “so many folks”

  22. Yikes says:

    PLG – re: yesterday and the transit hikes …

    you’re joking, right? you should read this. gotta break up those unions and fix the pension system.

    http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2010/02/chris_christies_speech_on_budg.html

    One state retiree, 49 years old, paid, over the course of his entire career, a total of $124,000 towards his retirement pension and health benefits. What will we pay him? $3.3 million in pension payments over his life and nearly $500,000 for health care benefits — a total of $3.8m on a $120,000 investment. Is that fair?

  23. Yikes says:

    Jamil, were you looking to eclipse Freddy and Bi and PLG with your uninformed “KKK is dead” garbage yesterday?

    http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/nov/20/klan-set-to-stand-for-rebel-fight-song/

    the turnout was a bust because of protesters (thankfully) but you’re once again misinformed. you are paying too much attention to the radical right – broaden your news horizons, guy.

  24. Schumpeter says:

    Shore (15)-

    An apt comparison. I think we’re also set to become a leader in false flag terror events.

  25. Schumpeter says:

    make (17)-

    Nothing comforts quite like watching Harvard throw a distress sale.

    Anybody catch the Frontline show on Brooksley Born last night? It pretty much nailed both Summers and Larry Rubin as being the world-class asshats they are.

  26. Yikes says:

    catching up from yesterday … the teabaggers aren’t a threat.

    all they’re going to do is split the republican party and give Obama the presidency again in 2012.

    palin? ha. no shot. none.

    (i do agree both parties are horrible, though.)

  27. Schumpeter says:

    Seriously, can anybody point to anything that Rubin or Summers has done in their entire professional lives that hasn’t ended in total clusterfcuk?

  28. Schumpeter says:

    yikes (26)-

    Speaking as someone who thought O would be dead by now…if he gets a second term, some nut will whack him for sure.

  29. frank says:

    Big US banks including Bank of America, Wells Fargo, JPMorgan Chase and Citigroup are moving to clear their books of troubled mortgages by embracing “short sales”, in which homeowners settle debts by selling their properties for less than the mortgage value.

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e697397a-1b63-11df-838f-00144feab49a.html

  30. Schumpeter says:

    Always in style:

    “George Soros’s Soros Fund Management charged into gold during the fourth quarter, doubling its stake in the world’s largest gold ETF.

    Note that he did this despite the fact that gold prices had already run up substantially by 4Q.

    It’s also despite the fact that in Davos he recently said that gold was the ‘ultimate asset bubble’ and that there was ‘no alternative to the dollar’.

    These are the actions of a true trend trader, it seems:

    Business Week:

    The $25 billion New York-based firm became the fourth- largest holder in the SPDR Gold Trust, adding 3.728 million shares valued at $421 million, according to a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission yesterday. Its investment was worth about $663 million, the fund’s largest single investment, as of Dec. 31.

    Soros joined China Investment Corp. and central banks including those in China and India in acquiring gold. China Investment, the $300 billion sovereign wealth fund based in Beijing, took a 1.45 million-share stake in the SPDR Gold Trust worth $155.6 million, according to a SEC 13F filing posted on Feb. 5.”

    http://www.businessinsider.com/soros-doubled-his-gold-2010-2

  31. chicagofinance says:

    Wow…a lot of South Asians in NYC are out of a job….

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a8DDSQUIgwUw

  32. chicagofinance says:

    BTW – Bloomberg bought Business Week off of McGraw-Hill, so it actually has some halfway decent content all of a sudden. As opposed to placing right in the trash, I skim it for major articles…..

  33. NJCoast says:

    Lots of Obama’s stimulus dollars made their way down here on St. Thomas. New paved roads are everywhere. New police cars. The place never looked better.

    Funny thing is the Virgin Islands has their own IRS and all the tax dollars collected here stay here but they still receive tons of aid from the federal government.

    The homes that were for sale one, two, and three years ago are still sitting without price reductions. Although one I looked at 3 years ago that was $1.6 million at the time is now $999,000.

    Two units where my sister lives are for sale for $495,000 and $475,000. 3 bedroom three bath.They rent for $4,000 a week during season. On the water. East end of the island near the Ritz- Carlton. In fact we wander over there and use all their amenities.

  34. Outofstater says:

    #28 He won’t get a second term. Evan Bayh may run against him for the nomination and he just might win. Consididering the sorry state of the Republican party, he might also get a fair number of GOP votes in the general election. And he’d be fulfilling his father’s dream of being the POTUS.

  35. relo says:

    Teterboro # 20. Does anyone actually live there?

  36. plg says:

    Yikes,

    Your post 22 on transit.

    I read the article, but I am not sure what that has to do with NJ transit. Christie discussed a “state worker.” That is kind of vague. You can take an example of the most lavish pension payout you can find, but that says nothing about NJ transit.

    I am not saying they are not overpaid, I just have never seen any evidence that NJ transit is a “patronage pit” as Christie says. I do see evidence everyday, however, that for some people NJ transit is their only means of getting to work and school.

  37. plg says:

    Shumpeter,

    Your post 28 evidences your complete lack of any class or dignity. If that wasn’t clear already.

  38. freedy says:

    all of these agencies are pits for the various
    family members ,hang on’s , of course they are patronage, its new jersey

  39. Schumpeter says:

    Cindy (34)-

    What’s funny about the shadow stats isn’t their sheer number; the challenge is trying to figure out what percentage of that number has become completely uninhabitable due to lack of upkeep.

    When viewed within the context of this inventory representing close to 100% loss, it should already be declared a financial and environmental disaster. Should the big banks even make it through the current foreclosure tsunami, the REO inventory will finish them once the foreclosures taper off.

  40. Veto That says:

    “We produce I-Pods”

    We produce the software and design the i pods here. They are actually manufactured in china. like everything else.

    Interesting thing i saw on nightline about manufacturing and why we are losing it.
    In China they pay each worker $140 per month. In usa we pay that same worker $2,400.

    We are happy to use the third world for cheap manufacturing but the idea of the whole story was to say that china wants the other higher paying jobs too, and in time they will get them.

  41. Schumpeter says:

    plg (38)-

    Yeah, you’re right. As if the US had any history of political violence and assassination of presidents.

    What was I thinking?

    Idiot.

  42. lisoosh says:

    “A retired 27-year CIA analyst who prepared and presented Presidential Daily Briefs and served as a high-level analyst for several presidents, would not put it past the government to “play fast and loose” with terror alerts and warnings and even events themselves in order to rally people behind the flag.””

    This is news? Google “Cheney, Dick”.

  43. plg says:

    Shumpeter,

    Going on an internet discussion board and making comments like that is just tasteless. It doesn’t surprise me that someone like you would say that, but I just feel it should be stated that you have no class.

  44. lisoosh says:

    #22 – So the big bucks flowing out are on pensions.

    But it doesn’t seem anyone is going after the pensions, cutting services for current residents, but not going after the inflated incomes of ex-state employees most of whom left NJ for the good life elsewhere.

    Question for the lawyers on the board – OK, NJ can’t go bancrupt and the pensions are based on contracts, but is there any “out”?

  45. lisoosh says:

    And is anyone else sick of policemen getting paid six figures to watch PSE&G fix the power lines all day.

  46. Schumpeter says:

    Veto (41)-

    The wages for jobs that currently pay well will be arbitraged away in the global labor marketplace. High-paying jobs in the US won’t become high-paying jobs in China or India; they will be the same jobs, now paid with slave wages.

    Eventually, the whole world will devolve into:

    – the desperate poor
    – the poor
    – debt serfs
    – unionized workers
    – gubmint workers
    – politicians
    – banksters

    The first three groups will expend their entire economic potential in support of the last four.

  47. Schumpeter says:

    plg (44)-

    It should also be stated that you have no brain, but I have refrained until now.

  48. SG says:

    US banks turn to short sale strategy

    Big US banks including Bank of America, Wells Fargo, JPMorgan Chase and Citigroup are turning to a new tactic to clear their books of troubled mortgage loans: short sales, in which homeowners settle their debts by selling their properties for less than the mortgage value.

    As moratoriums on mortgage payments and temporary loan modifications expire, a record 4.3m homes are entering or are in foreclosure, up from 3.4m in 2009. This creates an inventory overhang that will weigh on the housing market. Short sales are a way to help clear the pipeline.

    Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Economy.com, forecasts short sales and another type of transaction – known as a deed-in-lieu, in which the homeowner turns over the deed to a property in lieu of paying the debts – to total 20 per cent of all lost home sales this year, up from 15 per cent last year.

    After spending most of the past year focusing on largely ineffective loan modification plans, BofA, Wells Fargo, JPMorgan and other large banks said they were shifting their attention to short sales.

  49. Veto That says:

    schumpty, if ‘they’ can live on a cup of rice per day, why can’t we?

    Im sure you will agree that the only way this ends well for us is if nukes are involved.

  50. Schumpeter says:

    veto (50)-

    Only problem is, the US can’t be put on a rice-based diet. It’s agriculturally impossible, not to mention that we are too lazy to properly cultivate enough rice to feed ourselves.

    Instead, we are going to ride our grain-and-crap-based diet into a Dust Bowl-type disaster, followed by mass starvation.

  51. Schumpeter says:

    Look at areas in the US currently at risk of desertification. Not pretty.

  52. Schumpeter says:

    Maybe we should start force-breeding camels.

  53. Veto That says:

    SG, frank,

    Nice article on short sales from ft. It only took the big banks three years to catch on to that fact that any short sale is one big bottle neck nightmare, where you dont sleep for months on end waiting for someone to call.

    Especially with short sales you have to make your lowball extra low, because by the time the bank approves the contract the market has already deteriorated another 10% and your original lowball is now the avg market price.

    A good rule of thumb if the agent or seller get really mad or start to laugh at you hysterically. That is when you know you are hitting the right numbers.

  54. SG says:

    Interesting chart. Here is chart of homes for sale in Northeast from 1980 to present.

    Northeast Houses For Sale: Thousands: NSA

    According to the data, the inventory peak in 1988 was about 110K. Compared to that inventory peak in 2006 was 50K.

    Either this data is wrong or this bubble was not as big as in 1987. I am skeptical of data. Because to my knowledge, just GSMLS has inventory of 36K, which would consume significant amount of 50K total inventory for Northeast.

  55. Cindy says:

    40 – Clot

    In CA, part of the problem seems to be that it is taking longer to get things done.

    http://www.centralvalleybusinesstimes.com/stories/001/?ID=14403

  56. Veto That says:

    “Either this data is wrong or this bubble was not as big as in 1987”

    SG, This bubble is not as big as 1987, in terms of price appreciation.

    See page 4 for the chart since 1975.
    http://www.scribd.com/full/25848509?access_key=key-2dhds15wdj86zf3r824n

  57. Outofstater says:

    #45 Not a lawyer but as I understand it, a state pension is guaranteed only by the taxpayers of that state. It is a contract in the same way that Social Security is a contract. If there is no money to pay promised benefits, then taxes must be raised or benefits cut. There is no federal help available that I can think of. The Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp covers only private pensions. Since the there isn’t enough money and the taxpayers are tapped out, the only “out” is to cut benefits which I expect will have to happen.

  58. #51 – the US can’t be put on a rice-based diet.

    That’s odd, I was just discussing this over the weekend with someone.
    My own diet is largely rice based (and fresh veggies/fruit, maybe 1 or 2 largish meals on the weekends ) since about 2k6.
    IDK about the farming aspect, do we really not have enough cultivatable land? But there is no way most `mericans would put up with such a diet.
    When I explain my own diet to others I get that look like I’ve grown another head and flown in from some exotic, far-distant planet (probably France).
    It usually isn’t helped when I also mention that I ditched TV service a year ago….

  59. Mr Hyde says:

    Veto 57

    SG, This bubble is not as big as 1987, in terms of price appreciation.

    That is incorrect in terms of FHFA NJ HPI data.

    In nominal terms we can take the 80’s/90’s bubble to have started at about March 1983 at a Nominal HPI value of 109 and peaked at a nominal value of 245 in Dec 1989.

    80’s Nominal Values:
    bottom (Mar 83): 109
    Peak (Dec 89): 245

    80’s Inflation Adjusted Values:
    bottom (June 83): 241
    Peak (June 88): 439

    00’s Nominal Values:
    bottom (Mar 83): 227
    Peak (Dec 89): 567

    00’s Inflation Adjusted Values:
    bottom (June 83): 314
    Peak (June 88): 602

    Appreciation
    80’s Nominal Bottom to Peak: 125%
    80’s Adj Bottom to Peak: 82%

    00’s Nominal Bottom to Peak: 150%
    00’s Adj Bottom to Peak: 92%

    As you can see, in both nominal and adj terms the 00’s bubble is bigger then the 80’s/90’s bubble was.

  60. Mr Hyde says:

    Veto,

    page 4 of your doucment shows YOY %. YOY % is not the same at net price appreciation of the term of the bubble growth period.

    The instantaneous growth rate was faster in the 80’s bubble then it was in the 2000’s bubble, but the 2000’s bubble had a longer growth period.

    The 80’s bubble had a primary growth phase of about 6 years in duration while the 2000’s bubble had about a 10 year growth phase.

  61. Veto That says:

    Kettle, i think we are describing two different things.

    In real terms the price appreciation of the bubbles were the same.

    1987 bubble reached higher heights and was bigger in terms of the yoy price spikes,
    but yes, if you add up all the appreciation and connsider that the 2006 bubble took place over a period twice as long, then the 2006 bubble was prob bigger.

  62. Veto That says:

    “As you can see, in both nominal and adj terms the 00’s bubble is bigger then the 80’s/90’s bubble was.”

    ket this is not totally true. in real terms the bubbles were the same. 90% cumulative price appreication. see page 21 – our two bubbles chart.
    http://www.scribd.com/full/25848509?access_key=key-2dhds15wdj86zf3r824n

  63. NJGator says:

    MY NJT commuted sucked a*s today. 45 minute delay into NYC. Bloomfield – NYC in 1 hour 20 minutes. How convenient! Well worth the premium we pay to live so close to the city.

    As always, delay blamed on broken down Amtrak train ahead. I can’t wait to see how much more the service declines after Christie hacks the budget.

    If the doomsday fare increases actually come to fruition, they are really going to hammer the folks who commute into the city from places like Monmouth County. They are talking 20-30% fare increases. On my $135 monthly from Glen Ridge to NY, I am looking at a fare increase of only $27-$41/month. Compare that to Matawan – currently $305, potential increase of $61-$92, Long Branch – currently $340, potential increase of $68-$102/month and Bay Head – currently $352, potential increase of $71-$106/month. Me thinks these Christie voters are not going to be very happy. If I was the fat man, I might have gone after something that didn’t have such a direct, immediate impact on most people’s everyday lives as my first swing at the big, bad pinata.

  64. Mr Hyde says:

    Tosh, Schump.

    The US is easily capable of providing its own citizens a rice based diet. We have both the land and the capability to do so.

    The US is consistently the 3rd or 4th largest rice exporter in the world, averaging about 3 millions tons exported per year for the last 12 years. The other top producers are India, Vietnam and Thailand.

    The US currently consumes about 50% of in domestic rice production and exports the rest.

    The catch is that if you were to shift the US to a rice based diet as opposed to a wheat based diet, you would see wheat prices fall through the floor and rice prices shoot up due the sudden lack of exports available on the open market.

    This would severely impact some of the rice based asian nations, as a sudden price increase could impact how much the can afford to import for food.

    The US’s long term concern is not food, but energy

  65. Schumpeter says:

    tosh (59)-

    Creating and maintaining rice paddies is the most intensive form of ag labor there is. Whole families in China spend all their waking hours maintaining paddies that are the size of your living room.

    Think of what it would look like if you asked 2 mm Snookis and J Wowws to go work a flooded rice paddy.

  66. Mr Hyde says:

    Veto

    Yes, you have to be very clear on defining what sort of “growth” you are describing.

    The 2 bubbles were very close in absolute size in adj terms. The 2000’s bubble was slightly larger in absolute terms, but not significantly so. This outcome also depends on how you define the “bottom”.

    1987 bubble reached higher heights and was bigger in terms of the yoy price spikes,
    but yes, if you add up all the appreciation and consider that the 2006 bubble took place over a period twice as long, then the 2006 bubble was prob bigger.

    I agree.

    What is more worrying to me and one of the reason behind my “dire” forecast is that in the 80’s bubble traditional lending standards were adhered to for the most part. There was an almost complete lack of “innovative” mortgage products in the residential market at that time.
    During the 2000’s bubble we saw a majority of the mortgage market shift to the various “innovative” mortgage products.
    if you take a look at some of the old news articles form the early 90’s about how ugly RE got for a while and/or you remember living through it, then what can we expect now? At least there sound lending practices behind the 80’s bubble that acted as a sort of “fire break” limiting how much damage could be done. In this bubble the through any concept of a “fire break” out the window and then leverage the entire financial market off of the innovating mortgages.

  67. Veto That says:

    If anyone can explain SGs chart at 55, you deserve a reward of some kind.

    I dont even have a guess of why there were so many more homes for sale during the 1987 bubble vs 2006 bubble.

  68. Schumpeter says:

    gator (64)-

    NJ Transit will suck no matter what. If Christie enforces cuts on them, you’ll get sabotage, sick outs, planned slowdowns and walkouts.

    Either way, we lose.

    Personally, I think 60% of them could be replaced with either robots or well-trained primates.

  69. Schumpeter says:

    veto (68)-

    Community living and PUDs, built with S&L money…and based on phony appraisals and profit projections.

  70. stu says:

    As someone who has taken NJTransit virtually every workday since 1993, I have witnessed the destruction of what was once an award winning transit system. I used to be a pretty big rail fan and I have gotten to know many conductors and engineers over the years. The problems with NJ Transit stem from an inept administration. Most of the customer facing workers are not compensated well and are often required to work schedules that would make a nurse blush. The ones who make the big decisions are to blame for the downfall. The biggest driver of poor performance has been the Secaucaus Junction station and the River Line. All of these are millions of dollars that were wasted on significantly underutilized projects. The junction cost 700 million and the River Line, 1.1 billion. This near 2 billion wasted should have been used to better maintain their rail stock and to lower ticket costs. Rail provides huge economies of scale. It costs almost nothing to add another car to the end of the end of a train. Unfortunately, each time NJTransit raises their prices, they lose ridership and revenue. If they actually lowered their prices, they would actually generate more income and so-called earnings (well not really since they operate at a loss). But the administration would rather build huge transfer stations. This way they can have nice new offices and ribbon cutting ceremonies.

  71. Mr Hyde says:

    Schump 66

    The US is probably the world leader in industrialized farming. barring a rapid collapse peak oil scenario, we will be producing that rice using heavy john deer or international harvester equipment.

    http://www.wunderground.com/data/wximagenew/m/Marlis/2317.jpg

    Of course a rapid collapse scenario in peak oil means that 50-70% of the world population dies off from disease and starvation in the first 5-10 years. Rice production wouldnt really be the main concern at that point. It’s Much easier to feed 2-3 billion people then it is 7 billion

  72. Schumpeter says:

    If I’m gonna have some oafish, fat-lipped grunt of a turd act like making change is the equivalent of having his liver removed with a spork, I’d just as soon it be a gorilla instead of a human.

  73. chicagofinance says:

    “overpaid” does not properly convey the order of magnitude….maybe that is the issue that you may need to clarify…also, by definition every agency job in NJ is a “patronage pit”….as a result, the burden of proof is not to prove patronage, but rather that an administrator who was appointed, rather than hired in a competitive process, is qualified and performing at a level that befits their all-in compensation….the answer clearly across the board is NFW…that is why your posts come across so completely tone-deaf….

    plg says:
    February 17, 2010 at 9:14 am
    You can take an example of the most lavish pension payout you can find, but that says nothing about NJ transit.
    I am not saying they are not overpaid, I just have never seen any evidence that NJ transit is a “patronage pit” as Christie says. I do see evidence everyday, however, that for some people NJ transit is their only means of getting to work and school.

  74. Veto That says:

    “In China they pay each manufacturing worker $140 per month. In usa we pay that same worker $2,400.”

    I still cant get over this. I wonder when the playing fields finally even out if the salaries will meet in the middle? or if the american worker just goes right down to $140/month?

    At $140/month, we would be way less productive than a chinese worker so maybe the us worker will get paid less than the chinese eventually?

  75. Schumpeter says:

    Then again, at about the same time NJ Transit starts to really dive, a lot fewer of us will need to go into NY daily.

  76. House Whine says:

    64- NJ Gator- so what would you have gone after? The way I see it, any cuts and/or tax increases are going to be detrimental to some group of us in NJ. Nobody wants to be affected when the cuts start.

  77. NJGator says:

    Stu 71 – You mean the Frank R. Lautenberg Secaucus Junction Rail Station.

  78. Veto That says:

    “Community living and PUDs, built with S&L money…and based on phony appraisals and profit projections.”

    ok schumpty you get the reward.
    but you have to explain “Community living and PUDs”.
    Im sure the lending standards got laxed with S&L money but was it mnore laxed than the subprime/liar loands of the 2006 bubble?

  79. Schumpeter says:

    Veto (140)-

    US worker goes straight to under $140. Do not pass go.

    Well before that point, the fate of NJ Transit is a foregone conclusion. A ticket to NYC will be the equivalent of three weeks’ wages.

    It will be interesting to see how corporal punishment will be introduced into the US workplace. I think they’ll have to go straight to bullwhips and electric prods. All those years of unionization have made us pretty feisty. And soft.

  80. Mr Hyde says:

    Veto,

    If the world meets at $140 in adj terms ( to avoid inflation debates) then welcome to the stone age. The cost just to extract the raw materials and process them into the primary components of the ipod costs something in the neighborhood of $75.

    The first world is leveraging the 3rd world to artificially decrease prices. We are cost shifting in terms of pollution, work conditions etc by driving manufacturing conditions down but in a location we do not have to see or live in.

    If you really believe that wages will be going to $140/ month in t he US then you make me look like an amateur weekend doomer.

    In my opinion, it will come down to who controls the energy sources. Who ever controls the energy sources will most likely maintain the highest standard of living while those who do not will most likely experience 3rd world conditions.

  81. Schumpeter says:

    veto (79)-

    Condoshacks & planned unit developments.

    The crap lending wasn’t at the consumer level. It was at the construction level. S&Ls couldn’t say no to any development…no matter how harebrained the scheme.

  82. Mr Hyde says:

    Veto,

    you also have to consider cultural backgrounds in regards to wages and labor conditions. The chinese have a history of confusionism as well as general cultural trends that make them much more obedient to the government and authority figures.

    While the US has lost much of its backbone, US and european based cultures would not function as “well” as the chinese do in a slave labor industrial environment.

  83. SG says:

    Veto (68)

    I think there is something wrong in the data used by economagic. According to that chart, the For Sale inventory of Northeast at present is about 50,000 units.

    Grim’s chart clearly shows only in GSMLS areas the present inventory is about 20,000. The peak each year is about 26,000. Now that is just Northern and central NJ. If you consider Northeast, total inventory has to be significantly greater than 50K.

    NJ January 09 Sales Inventory overlay

    I think economagic is incorrect.

  84. Schumpeter says:

    Hyde (81)-

    I think your prediction is a little too gloomy. I think we’ll level off at about the 16th Century, and I haven’t seen a lot of info that makes me think it’ll get worse than that.

    “If the world meets at $140 in adj terms (to avoid inflation debates) then welcome to the stone age.”

    Agree with you on the control of energy sources determining the winner. Fits right in with my Mad Max/defining apocalyptic event theory.

  85. stu says:

    I applaud Christie for making cuts, but you will see your localities simply jack up property taxes to compensate for the difference. This is how it worked under Whitman and Christie is employing the same strategy. Anyone want to bet that he removes the local spending caps on school budgets as soon as the mayors get together and complain in Trenton? Jamil?

    Now if Christie actually lowered the spending cap, which many have suggested, then I might just have to buy the man a snack.

    The only way to really make cuts is to tell those eligible for public pensions that they ain’t getting it all. And not just new hires. Until then, more of the same. Corzine, Christie, all the same.

  86. SG says:

    Veto 63 – I agree with Kettle on his rational that price appreciation was also bigger this time compared to 1980’s. One should compare total appreciation, not YOY change chart.

  87. Schumpeter says:

    hyde (83)-

    That’s why the corporal punishment will have to be early and severe in the US transition to a slave labor-based economy.

  88. stu says:

    “Agree with you on the control of energy sources determining the winner. Fits right in with my Mad Max/defining apocalyptic event theory.”

    Master Blaster runs Bartertown.

  89. Mr Hyde says:

    Schump 85

    sorry, i was being general. I will agree with something resembling the 16th century if we drop to $140

  90. Schumpeter says:

    Keep in mind also that a high percentage of the condos, PUDs and (especially) Class A office space built during the ’80s boom was of high quality and of great utility to the eventual buyers…many of whom still own and productively use this inventory.

    During the latest boom, millions of units of defective and depreciating residential housing were built. This inventory will never be occupied and now represents both an economic and environmental hazard.

  91. Mr Hyde says:

    Schump.

    Who the winner is depends on who holds the primary energy sources AND, who holds the critical rare earth metals.

    China already had that ace up their sleeve. They hold the largest and primary source of highly critical rare earth metals. without these metals a significant portion of modern tech does not function.

    They may not end up holding the energy sources but can demand a fair portion of it in return for their rare earth metals.

  92. Schumpeter says:

    I’m actually looking forward to a future in which the phrase “zero sum game” has some real meaning…and isn’t something that gets dropped 20 times in a bad business meeting or training seminar.

    Maybe it will be replaced by “two men enter, one man leaves”.

  93. Mr Hyde says:

    Schump:

    A draft report by China’s Ministry of Industry and Information Technology has called for a total ban on foreign shipments of terbium, dysprosium, yttrium, thulium, and lutetium. Other metals such as neodymium, europium, cerium, and lanthanum will be restricted to a combined export quota of 35,000 tonnes a year, far below global needs.

    China mines over 95pc of the world’s rare earth minerals, mostly in Inner Mongolia. The move to hoard reserves is the clearest sign to date that the global struggle for diminishing resources is shifting into a new phase. Countries may find it hard to obtain key materials at any price.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/6082464/World-faces-hi-tech-crunch-as-China-eyes-ban-on-rare-metal-exports.html

  94. Schumpeter says:

    hyde (92)-

    I am certain that in the end, the Chinese will rook us by getting the best of what we have in return for defective/misgraded steel, tainted food and toxic tchatchkes.

  95. Mr Hyde says:

    Schump:

    Our best hope is that the US has decided to play the energy card and sell our soul to do so. if they haven’t actually planned that its not looking good for us.

    The Japanese government has drawn up a “Strategy for Ensuring Stable Supplies of Rare Metals”. It calls for `stockpiling’ and plans for “securing overseas resources’. The West has yet to stir.

  96. Schumpeter says:

    Hyde (94)-

    Never forget we can level that playing field with a few chunks of our very own plutonium.

  97. Schumpeter says:

    hyde (97)-

    Feh. In another two generations, the Japanese will be extinct.

  98. Outofstater says:

    The taxpayers are the employers of public employees, right? So what if we fired all the public employees and then had them apply for their own jobs again, competing with other applicants, of course, and for slightly lower wages and less generous benefit packages? We’d end up with less onerous taxes and better employees. Of course, the transition might be a little tricky, but it might be worth it. (It’s nice here in my dream world.)

  99. Schumpeter says:

    stater (100)-

    That’s pretty much what Mish endorses.

    Problem is, it makes sense. Will never happen.

  100. Schumpeter says:

    Whoops…may be getting back on the SRS train. Limit order set to go at $7.50…

    Good times!

  101. John says:

    Just the men and women over 30.

    Schumpeter says:
    February 17, 2010 at 11:21 am
    hyde (97)-

    Feh. In another two generations, the Japanese will be extinct.

  102. Veto That says:

    SD, thats FHFA data – Tracks almost exactly the same as FHFA NJ HPI and CS NY Metro.
    Interesting if you use this chart to measure the tow bubbles, you see that the 1987 nom bubble was way bigger.

    1980 – 1987
    30 – 110
    267% total price increase

    1991 – 2006
    100 – 250
    150% total price increase

  103. Schumpeter says:

    “If the leaders of a society wish to manipulate the population (duh) this explains why the leaders (we’re not just talking politicians here) would lie to their citizens, something I’ve repeatedly talked about on ZH. If the person (the conditioned mind) in crisis is confronted with information they desperately wish to reject, but the information or source is extremely credible, the person needs emotional help to discard the information. The ego is pounding on the person in the form of fear and anxiety to drop this hot potato, to resolve the crisis. The person is desperate for emotional cover to relieve their suffering. If they reject the information in order to stop the emotional pain and be accepted in the eyes of society (which is extremely important to the conditioned person) then they must personally reject the information and the source.

    But they know deep down (though not always consciously) that they should at least look at the information more closely and quite possibly embrace it. This is what’s causing the crisis, the knowledge that it could be true. The conditioned mind always knows what the “truth” is and this exerts (additional) pressure on the conditioned mind, even if the conditioned mind is not aware of it. The person needs to receive permission to do what they want to do, which is to reject the information in a manner that allows them to relieve the emotional pain (denial will help them feel better about themselves) and still assure them of society’s acceptance. In other words, in this case they wish to reject the info in a personally and socially acceptable manner.

    By the way, it doesn’t matter if “society” is not aware of this person’s crisis. It’s all about how the person see’s himself in relation to society. I will stress again that we’re talking about the conditioned mind here, the so called Zombie. People will reject information while alone at home just as quickly as they would in a public setting. To even be in possession (intellectually or physically, it doesn’t matter) of the information is often very threatening. I’m reminded of the Japanese person talking on the outdoor payphone and bowing while talking. In the person’s mind and manner (meaning in the consciousness) the other person is physically there. This is an important dynamic to understand and it helps explain the “phantom limb syndrome” many amputees experience. Experiments have shown that when you see a movie of someone lifting their arm, the part of your brain that controls your own arm lights up in the same manner as it does when you actually lift your own arm. The actual electrical impulses that would move the arm are blocked by another part of the brain (I think it’s your consciousness that blocks it) which apparently knows the difference between pictures and “reality”. But your brain doesn’t perceive any difference between the picture and the real thing. I guess this also explains the multibillion dollar p0rn0graphy business, doesn’t it? :>) Perception is reality, at least to your brain.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/article/end-empire-waking-zombie-nations-psychology-consciousness-and-egoic-mind

  104. lisoosh says:

    stu says:
    February 17, 2010 at 11:07 am

    “The only way to really make cuts is to tell those eligible for public pensions that they ain’t getting it all. And not just new hires. Until then, more of the same. Corzine, Christie, all the same.”

    Yup. I’d love to see what the cost would be if we just paid out what people actually paid in (with average appreciation, as if it was stored in bonds) rather than a big percentage of their last years salary.

    Course a lot of escapes neighbours in Key West would be looking for jobs promptly.

  105. SG says:

    Veto – 104

    You are right. I did not do the math.

    Well, I guess we have seen worse times before than.

  106. njescapee says:

    lishoosh, re:106, yeah, could be the case. know quite a few retirees down here from public sector. me, i’m just a working stiff.

  107. Veto That says:

    SG, it all depends on what bottom you use and also inflation helped prices increase in the 80s-90s more so than today, so its prob better to use the inf adj data for the comparison, which shows that the bubbles were about the same size.

    Also, as clot pointed out, they were different in nature so its all a bit subjective depending on the picture you want to paint – geographic area, house type, etc im sure would all complicate the comparison.

    the price index data tells us a lot but doesnt really give the ‘why’.
    I guess thats up to us to figure out.

  108. speedkillsu says:

    Joseph Cohen (Abby) Says Recession Is Over, S&P Headed To 1,300 …Goldman’s distinctly feminine A. Joseph Cohen is out with the latest prognostication. Punxsutawney Abbey must have not seen her shadow yet again, resulting in a call for 6 more decades of Dow at 36,000, or in this case S&P hitting 1,300 by the end of the year. The fact that blind monkey, with a penchant for dart (and/or feces) throwing have had a more successful track record than AJC is irrelevant, yet disturbing. To wit: On a CNBC appearance in March 2008, she predicted S&P 500 at 1550 by end 2008, In an August 10, 2007 appearance on CNBC the Oracle of nothing predicted the S&P 500 would rally to 1,600 by December; In December 2007 A. Joseph predicted the S&P 500 index would reach 1,675 in 2008 (the S&P 500 traded to less than half, or 741.02, in November 2008)…..http://www.zerohedge.com/article/shocker-joseph-cohen-abby-says-recession-over-sp-headed-1300

  109. Schumpeter says:

    speed (110)-

    No better indicator I can think of that things are about to go from gray to black.

  110. confused in NJ says:

    Interesting that “O” and Biden are praising the Stimulous Package saving 2M Teachers, Police & Fireman jobs. I guess they don’t realize that Taxes pay Public Salaries and when the last Private Sector employee is out of work, we will have a Dog chasing it’s tail in the Public Sector.

  111. Schumpeter says:

    I hope the dog chases, catches and eats Biden.

  112. Schumpeter says:

    Only a dolt like Biden, who has spent his whole life swilling at the public trough, could make such a ridiculous statement.

    Problem is, we are creating a supermajority of people who will spend their whole lives swilling at the public trough.

  113. Schumpeter says:

    …since our entire private economy cannot produce anything of value.

  114. Veto That says:

    lets say hypothetically, we wage war on the entire middle east and win, what does that really do for us economically?
    besides maybe stabilize oil prices for a bit.

  115. Schumpeter says:

    veto (116)-

    Lots of parking space for decommissioned airplanes?

  116. meter says:

    “US worker goes straight to under $140.”

    Is that in NUSD? (New US dollars since the dollar will be kaput by then).

  117. meter says:

    “Who ever controls the energy sources will most likely maintain the highest standard of living while those who do not will most likely experience 3rd world conditions.”

    Historically, you’d have to go one step removed to say that he who controls the might controls the energy sources (or rather, resources, as energy alone won’t do squat for you if you don’t have water, arable land, etc.).

    The last 50 years in the US, that might has been based on a strong military, but again one step removed is dependent on a strong economy to fund that military.

  118. stu says:

    “He who controls the spice controls the universe!”

  119. Mr Hyde says:

    Veto 116

    A LOT!!!!! if we have overt military/political control of the middle east then we can essentially force the rest of the world to maintain the US dollar as the reserve currency by demanding that middle east oil be bought and sold in USD exclusively.

    Such a hypothetical situation would go a very long way in maintaining US dominance

  120. Mr Hyde says:

    Meter.

    Nope, energy is the core issue.

    One of the major reasons the US rose to military dominance after WWII was the massive amounts of cheap high grade texas oil. At that point in time the US was the Saudi Arabia of the world.

    Over the subsequent 50 years the US funded and dominated the development of middle east oil sources thereby establishing strong political influence over those energy sources as well.

    Who do you think put the house of Saud into power, and at what price?

    Our economic and military power arises from a combination of factors, from our geographic location to rich natural resources to having (had) rich local energy sources and having strong influence over the primary foreign energy sources.

  121. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    CNN reports that Devo is going to make a comeback at the Olympics.

    But the interview has a decidedly Schumperterian tone, and it appears that Jerry Casale of Devo has gotten into the NJREReport zeitgeist in the interview when he said:

    “‘We’re not trying to freak people out,’ he said. ‘We’re here to be like the house band on the Titanic, to entertain everybody while we all go down together.'”

  122. plg says:

    Stimulus money at work:

    CAMDEN — The federal government is paying $23 million to upgrade, extend and connect bicycle and pedestrian paths in the Philadelphia area.

    The grant announced Wednesday is part of about $1.5 billion in transportation funds awarded as part of the federal stimulus package.

    U.S. Sens. Robert Menendez and Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) said the paths would make Camden and its suburbs in southern New Jersey better for biking and walking, and could help reduce the number of cars on the road.

    The expanded system of trails on the two sides of the Delaware River is to be joined by the existing walkway on the Ben Franklin Bridge.

  123. Mr Hyde says:

    Lautenberg (D-NJ) said the paths would make Camden and its suburbs in southern New Jersey better for biking and walking, and could help reduce the number of cars on the road.

    HAHAHAHAHAHA

  124. Mr Hyde says:

    Why dont we do something useful with Camden and designate it a US ARMY Urban Warfare Training Center?

  125. Mr Hyde says:

    At least watching the apachies and A-10’s strafe the city might actually be entertaining.

  126. Morpheus says:

    120:

    Damn it stu: I wanted to say that! beat me to it.

    Maudib!

  127. Yikes says:

    lisoosh says:
    February 17, 2010 at 9:23 am

    #22 – So the big bucks flowing out are on pensions.

    But it doesn’t seem anyone is going after the pensions, cutting services for current residents, but not going after the inflated incomes of ex-state employees most of whom left NJ for the good life elsewhere.

    can’t imagine a scenario where they could go after old pensions. at best, maybe they could find a way to make them retroactive to like 2005.

    but the already-retired people? no way. anyone under 30? sure. they still have time to invest/get their act together.

    *full disclosure: MIL receives a real nice NJ pension (retired a few yrs ago).

  128. safeashouses says:

    #124 plg

    Will there be lairs and hiding places for the muggers too? Could be like the Serengeti. We would just need a few tree huggers in off road vehicles with camera crews talking in whispers to document everything for us.

  129. chicagofinance says:

    Los Angeles, California (CNN) — Devo believes the future has finally caught up with its visionary music and “de-evolution” message.

    Thirty-five years after the group’s first album — and two decades since its last — Devo is back with new music and a look to replace their iconic energy dome hats.

    Devo will have a world stage for the debut when it performs Monday night, February 22, at the Winter Olympics in Vancouver, British Columbia.

    “You’re going to see new things and you’re going to see familiar things,” Devo’s Jerry Casale told CNN.

    Devo’s comeback is fueled by what it says is the fulfillment of its prophecy of “de-evolution” — the idea that humans are regressing into a destructive herd mentality.

    “When you think about 1980, if somebody would have showed you in a crystal ball 2010, you would have thought it was a bad joke,” Casale said. “De-evolution happened and now everybody agrees. They don’t think we’re crazy. They know that it was true.”

    Devo began after Casale and Mark Mothersbaugh met as art students at Kent State University. The group wrote its first music in May 1970 — the same month National Guard troops fired on anti-war protesters on the Kent State campus, killing four students.

    The lyrics, onstage theatrics, costumes and videos evolved over the next decade, but the message stayed true.

    Casale and Mothersbaugh only hint at the group’s new look, but corporate America appears to be the primary target of its social satire.

    “We’re playing ball with corporate society,” Casale said.

    The band has re-signed with Warner Brothers Records and hired an ad agency to help shape its image, he said.

    “The idea was that Devo was going to turn around their reputation for being hermetically sealed and not playing ball with society,” Casale said.

    Instead of being an art band targeting a niche following, Devo is now using focus groups to choose which songs to include on its next CD and what clothes to wear onstage, he said.

    “We want to know what you think,” Casale said. “Just like CNN says ‘What do you think?’ We want to know.”

    “There’s color studies going on, different costumes being shown to people, different mixes of songs, and we’re letting people kind of direct us toward a final product,” he said.

    The goal is for Devo to “penetrate every nook and cranny of our technologically advanced pop culture in the coming year,” a recent news release said. “With an arsenal of new songs, videos, fashions, apps, toys, games, live performances and more, we will reach out to create something for everybody.”

    Casale said Devo, for decades considered a band of the future, is “living in the present now.”

    “We’re not trying to freak people out,” he said. “We’re here to be like the house band on the Titanic, to entertain everybody while we all go down together.”

  130. stu says:

    plg:

    “.S. Sens. Robert Menendez and Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) said the paths would make Camden and its suburbs in southern New Jersey better for biking and walking, and could help reduce the number of cars on the road.”

    Are you serious or are you trolling?

    Every dollar dumped into Camden has no positive result whatsoever. Unless of course your goal is to make the establishment of concentration camps to rid NJ of welfare recipients that much cheaper. I mean, the more attractive you make Camden to the Section 8 crowd, the more you will save on your cattle car lease from Conrail when the ghetto walls are constructed.

  131. All "H-Train: Hype says:

    “We’re here to be like the house band on the Titanic, to entertain everybody while we all go down together.”

    Clot, do you play the guitar? :)

  132. Mr Hyde says:

    Stu,

    Where do you think we will get the foot soldiers for our middle east invasion?

  133. Shore Guy says:

    “Bay Head”

    Gator,

    If one is living in Bay Head, a trippling of the NJT fare is of no consequence.

  134. Shore Guy says:

    “In my opinion, it will come down to who controls the energy sources.”

    Ket,

    This is why we should borrow every single dollar the world will lend us to install solar cells on every building in this country (not even for direct energy producton but, for electrolysis to create H2 for home fuel cells), and for wind turbines. We should not depend on a single bit of imported energy and we should use our oil reserves for chemical use ,and not energy. Once we don’t need the rest of the world to support our energy needs, if we need to repudiate our debt, we can do so.

    Until then, we’re left “waitin’ on the man,” and looking for our next fix.

  135. skep-tic says:

    #45

    “Question for the lawyers on the board – OK, NJ can’t go bancrupt and the pensions are based on contracts, but is there any “out”?”

    I am sure Nom knows more about this than me, since laws governing pensions are a giant clusterf*ck, but as a generall matter anyone can simply default on a contract. It is not a crime. You have to pay damages, but the other party has to sue you first and win. So a state might strategically default under the belief that its pensioners don’t have the resources to win in litigation. Less dramatic would be a consensual settlement in which such obligations are extinguished (negotiated under threat of default, of course).

  136. stu says:

    Shore(138):

    “We should not depend on a single bit of imported energy and we should use our oil reserves for chemical use ,and not energy. Once we don’t need the rest of the world to support our energy needs, if we need to repudiate our debt, we can do so.”

    I was hoping W would have gone that route after 911. Instead he decided to attack Iraq.

    Teabagger rally anyone?

  137. Mr Hyde says:

    Shore,

    if we were really serious, then use the nevada desert to build a number of very large air cooled nuclear reactors (High Temp), then dump a ton of money into High voltage DC transmission lines. You can use the waste heat from high temp reactors to thermally decompose water into H2 and O2 as well as for desalination. They are already designing a pipeline for bringing sea water from the california coat to nevada. Just re-purpose it.

    While our nuke tech needs some development, an Apollo type project is very feasible for something along those lines.

    We have the means, just not the will.

  138. Mr Hyde says:

    SHore,

    if we did as you suggest we would also severely impact the middle east. Once the worlds largest user drops out of the market what happens to prices?

  139. skep-tic says:

    #64

    Can’t Christie simply fire the head of public transit if he/she doesn’t get costs down enough to avoid massive fare increases? These agencies always look to fare increases first since they have a monopoly and there is no price pressure.

  140. NJGator says:

    Hmmm….product of the Bloomfield Public Schools?

    Bloomfield cops respond to burglary, discover pot growing operation

    BLOOMFIELD — A Bloomfield couple reported a burglary in their home Friday, but investigating police found an extensive marijuana greenhouse in their basement, police said today.

    Just before midnight Friday, a couple called police saying that someone broke into their Willard Avenue home and stole their safe, said Lt. Richard Wallace.

    Police arrived at the house and found traces of a burglary, including a front door that was pried open, Wallace said.

    Police were investigating the premises when an officer smelled marijuana, Wallace said. Officers traced the odor to the basement, where they found 73 marijuana plants, Wallace said. The couple also had a sophisticated lighting, ventilation and irrigation system specialized for growing marijuana, Wallace said. Police also found marijuana packaged in plastic bags and residue of cocaine on razor blades and a spoon, Wallace said.

    Edwin Llanos, 35, was arrested for possession of a controlled dangerous substance, manufacturing and distributing plants, possession of drug paraphernalia, possession with intent to distribute within 1,000 feet of school and within 500 feet of a park. Today, he was being held in Essex County Jail in lieu of $200,000 bail.

    His girlfriend, Nathaly Morales, 22, was released on her own recognizance and issued a court summons.

    Wallace said the couples’ stolen safe is under investigation.

    http://www.nj.com/news/local/index.ssf/2010/02/bloomfield_cops_respond_to_rob.html

  141. Shore Guy says:

    Ket,

    We get very little oil from the Mideast. Of course, as oil is fungible, it really does not matter from where we get it, a decrease in demand from the US would still cause pain to the Saud family.

    Frankly, if the West and Japan went alternative, who cares what happens to the Saud family? Let the Wahhabists take over and execute the whole royal family and let the entier Arab world from the Levant to the Persian Gulf descend to the 16th Century. The only reason we care what happenes there is oil. Some might say terrorism too but, terrorism is largely rooted in the clash of cultures that comes from our being involved in the area because of oil.

  142. NJGator says:

    Sure Skep – Or he can also strip NJT of most of it’s public subsidy to help balance the budget and shift the cost burden even more to the rider. A fare increase is not a tax hike, right?

  143. Shore Guy says:

    I bet that Bloomfield couple simply thought they were growing tall Chia Pets.

  144. Shore Guy says:

    Gator,

    With the assets and income you and Stu have, you should be grateful that B.H.O. allows you to pay your fair share.

    “Thank you, Barack. May I have another?”

    Seems fair to me.

  145. Mr Hyde says:

    Shore 145,

    I have to disagree. what follows are the top 10 US crude suppliers by amoutn supplied:

    Canada
    Saudi Arabia
    Mexico
    Venezuela
    Nigeria
    Angola
    Iraq
    Algeria
    Ecuador
    Kuwait

    SA, Kuwait and Iraq are all in the top 10. these 10 supplies provide 90% of US oil imports

  146. Shore Guy says:

    “strip NJT”

    Is that a dodgey game where people remove clothing each time a train is on time?

    People would stay dressed long enough for everyone playing to lose interest.

  147. skep-tic says:

    #112

    “Interesting that “O” and Biden are praising the Stimulous Package saving 2M Teachers, Police & Fireman jobs. I guess they don’t realize that Taxes pay Public Salaries and when the last Private Sector employee is out of work, we will have a Dog chasing it’s tail in the Public Sector.”

    indeed all they have done is waste money delaying the restructuring that remains necessary to avoid the total budgetary collapse of state and local gov’t.

  148. Shore Guy says:

    Ket,

    Working from memory, doesnt Canada supply 50% or more of it?

  149. Shore Guy says:

    ” praising the Stimulous Package saving 2M Teachers, Police & Fireman jobs.”

    Again, working from memory, I believe they count a job as “saved” if it gets even a single dollar in stimulus funding.

  150. skep-tic says:

    I agree that a transit fare increase is the same as a tax increase, just the way a fee increase at the DMV is a tax. I am not a NJer, but if Christie goes that route he should be called out on it.

    my point is that the idea that massive fare increases are the only option if state level funding is cut is likely false. the MTA in NYC pulls this sh*t regularly, yet hundreds of millions of dollars is unaccounted for in their budget. These agencies are cesspools of waste because they can hold the economy hostage until people pay up.

  151. njescapee says:

    Shore, “Again, working from memory, I believe they count a job as “saved” if it gets even a single dollar in stimulus funding.”

    WH uses same folks as Wall Street for their metrics.

  152. jcer says:

    Why do I feel like, much like W’s mission accomplished, O is going to regret making this statement!

  153. John says:

    Channel Trend Inc. upgrades AMBAC FINL GRP INC from FAVORABLE to MOST FAVORABLE.

    Guess who is buying me drinks on August 1st?

  154. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [124] plg

    This is poor. I used to live in Philly, and know those waterfronts. This project is going to be an unqualified joke. Beyond disaster, it will be immediately seen, and later proven to be, a money pit.

    It’s stuff like this that will later turn out to be a bunch of Bridges to Nowhere, which reward traditional democratic constituencies (e.g., those sucking on the public teat) while doing nothing, and I mean nothing, to stimulate the productive economy.

    You’d get more actual stimulus by handing out twenties on South Street.

    I had defended you somewhat from the ad hominem because I thought your ideas should be debated on the merits. But you cannot be serious by putting up drivel like that. About the best I can say for it is that you probably aren’t familiar with the area and don’t realize what a truly ridiculous idea that is.

  155. Schumpeter says:

    plg (124)-

    Will the gubmint give me some stim money so I can arm myself before I ride that bike path?

  156. Shore Guy says:

    i am not so sure B.O. will run for a secnd consecutive term. To run and to lose hurts his longterm economic potential. He has avoided reelection races by moving up and there is nowhere to move up now.

    He can claim to have stanched the bleeding, to have regained respect for th U.S., yadda, yadda, and say that “Now, my children need me more than the Nation does,” and go off to hit the speaking circut as an undefeated president. He can also preserve his mistique by retaining the ability to run aain later “should he so choose.” One-term presidents who get thrown out of office are done, but one who walks away….

  157. Schumpeter says:

    hype (133)-

    Are we not men?

  158. Schumpeter says:

    WE ARE DEVOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

  159. Shore Guy says:

    “Are we not men?”

    We are tax units.

  160. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [160] John

    I’ll buy you a fcuking drink if you would only SHOW UP.

  161. hughesrep says:

    162

    Don’t think of it as a bike path. It’s an attempt to smooth the pathways for various distribution channels.

  162. Schumpeter says:

    hyde (142)-

    I say we just pull all US personnel out of the Middle East/Afghanistan/Pakistan, then toss in a few tactical nukes as a parting gift.

  163. Schumpeter says:

    safe (153)-

    Amazing, the way you can turn practically anything into sausage.

  164. Schumpeter says:

    Arsenal being turned into sausage by Porto right now.

  165. Mr Hyde says:

    Shore 152

    % of of US crude oil supplied to US by top 10 suppliers:

    Canada 19%
    Saudi Arabia 14%
    Mexico 14%
    Venezuela 11%
    Nigeria 11%
    Angola 5%
    Iraq 5%
    Algeria 4%
    Ecuador 2%
    Kuwait 2%

  166. John says:

    I don’t live in NJ, that is only reason I don’t show up. Plus playa don’t do NJ.

    Comrade Nom Deplume says:
    February 17, 2010 at 2:52 pm
    [160] John

    I’ll buy you a fcuking drink if you would only SHOW UP.

  167. Mr Hyde says:

    Shore,

    Note that Mexico’s cantarell is in terminal decline. The question is, where do we replace that lost oil import from?

    http://tiny.cc/ve24u

  168. Veto That says:

    Why the heck are we fighting in Iraq if we only get to steal 5% of their oil?

  169. Mr Hyde says:

    Shore,

    Cantarell produces more then 60% of mexico’s oil. Without their oil income or if the prices jump enough to impact mexican use, then we can have our own little ethiopia.

  170. Mr Hyde says:

    Veto,

    a) as a fall back for Saudi, incase the Saud family gets executed.

    b) a number of the primary field supplying the US and the world are entering terminal decline. The only fields that are large enough to make a dent in that decline are in Iraq

    Note that we are talking about light sweet crude. There are some very large Heavy sour fields in Venezuela and Iran. But that grade is much harder to process and produces a different “cut” then light sweet does.

    Iraq was also in the process of making oil deals with china and russia.

  171. plg says:

    I am familiar with the Camden and Philly area and I have crossed the Ben Franklin Bridge by bike many times. I am guessing you all must not bike very much?

    It will connect the colleges and universities in Camden with Philly and promote fewer cars and higher air quality for the region.

    Not only will this provide an added source of recreation, but it will provide people the opportunity to commute by bicycle between South Jersey and Philly. Simply because it doesn’t improve YOUR life, doesn’t mean it is not a worthwhile project.

    There was a time when people said the same things about Brooklyn, Hoboken and Jersey City that they are saying about Camden. Revitilization is possible.

    Future generations will thank us for these investments the way we should be thanking FDR’s generation for the parks, libraries, schools, and infrastructure that are still providing value to us to this day. The returns on those investments are still being paid almost 100 years later.

  172. Veto That says:

    i hope we are at least getting the revenues on the other 95%.

  173. Schumpeter says:

    FDR and his harebrained Keynesian ideas extended and deepened the Depression. All he did was soften up the American public for an incremental introduction of soci@lism. IMO, he is undoubtedly the most overrated leader in American history, and many of his policies were the direct genesis for the slow-mo train wreck we currently face. Let’s also not forget he was a closet anti-Semite and had no taste for engaging the battle against the Axis until his hand was forced.

    Revitalization of Camden is possible. However, the first step should involve the dropping of 2-3 neutron bombs, because the city is full of vicious animals masquerading as human beings.

  174. Schumpeter says:

    This plg troll really burns my ass.

    Mostly because I know there are millions of others out there who have been brainwashed into a similar stupor.

  175. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    51.

    LMFAO

  176. njescapee says:

    Clot, amen brother

  177. PGC says:

    #171 Clot

    I want to fcukin cry. WTF!

  178. Veto That says:

    watching clot destroy plg makes me realize that he actually takes it easy on the rest of us.

  179. PGC says:

    Food or Oil?

    A cold man is uncomfortable, a starving man is dangerous.

  180. njescapee says:

    Veto, I don’t think so. I attribute it to PLG’s own talent.

  181. plg says:

    Shumpeter,

    But we are still using schools, libraries, the Hoover Dam, parks and much built during the New Deal, correct?

    Regardless what you say those investments provided a century worth of value. That is a fact.

  182. Mr Hyde says:

    plg

    There was a time when people said the same things about Brooklyn, Hoboken and Jersey City that they are saying about Camden. Revitilization is possible.

    Hoboken and Jersey city still arent places people are clamoring to raise a family. The biggest thing both of those cities have going for them is that they are NOT NYC, hence the rent for both business and residential is cheaper and you still have proximity to NYC.

    Its not due to some magical unicorn $hitting skittles over the city. Its due to prices in NYC being so high.

    Hey, did you see the recent news about corporate and residential rents dropping substantially in NYC? I’m sure that will help both cities.

  183. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    Screw Chinese rice,

    Most Americans just need a bucket of fried chicken, free vaccines, and a 30 pack of grape soda and they are good to go.

    We wont need oil either. At the current pace Americans wont be able to fit in their cars.

    An entire nation of devolving human who no longer need knee joints because they waddle from side to side. Pretty soon they will lose their limbs and just flop about on the ground like the average walrus.

  184. make money says:

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/35443252

    Since I put down 10K for two sedans I hope Tesla can still deliver them in two years.

  185. Veto That says:

    My favorite part of clot crucifying plg is when all the njreport minions jump in to support him as if he cant handle the fight himself.

    in 181 he basically laces plg’s entire educational foundation with dynamite and then pressess the ignition. This type of structural damage will take a week to fully sink in before plg realizes what clot is really saying to him.

    I will prob never argue with schumpty, even if i caught him saying something dead wrong.

  186. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    By the way Im making a killing on Chinese agriculture right now.

  187. make money says:

    because the city is full of vicious animals masquerading as human beings.

    Bingo. Put these animals to sleep and cut taxes.

  188. Mr Hyde says:

    PLG

    due to modern industrial agriculture, FOOD IS OIL.

    without oil crop yields could easily drop by 40-60%

  189. Veto That says:

    Also, PGC is not PLG
    Right?

  190. Mr Hyde says:

    Make 195

    just hand out conceal carry permits like candy. the problem will solve itself.

  191. plg says:

    Veto,

    That is a hilarious analysis. You assume I am unfamiliar with the libertarian austrian school “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” economics?

    I just assumed it was proven wrong by George W. Bush. Now they crawl out again from under their rocks. Nothing new here.

  192. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [197] veto

    Hard to say. plg and PGC have similar politics, but I think that their styles are dissimilar.

  193. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [174] john

    That’s a cop out. No one said it had to be NJ.

  194. Mr Hyde says:

    plg

    GWB was by practice a corporatist as in corpratocracy also known as fascism ( although a more advanced for there of).

    In what universe did GWB push for austrian eocnomic principles?

  195. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [179] plg

    “It will connect the colleges and universities in Camden with Philly and promote fewer cars and higher air quality for the region.

    Not only will this provide an added source of recreation, but it will provide people the opportunity to commute by bicycle between South Jersey and Philly.”

    Yeah. Good luck with that. Let me know when it turns out to be a stunning success.

    Or will NJ pay for a cop to ride alongside me when I cross the BFB? ‘Cuz that is the only way I am biking in Camden.

  196. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [179] plg

    “I am guessing you all must not bike very much?’

    Gonna call me out? Fine. I don’t bike nearly as much as I used to, or as much as I’d like to. NJ is just too fcuking dangerous.

    Unlike the period from 2001 to 2004 when I commuted, by bicycle, from McLean, VA to downtown DC.

    Every day.

    Even in winter.

    Bitch.

  197. plg says:

    Mr Hyde,

    He reduced regulation to a bare minimum. Cut environemntal regulation, financial regulation, business regulations.

    He reduced taxes dramatically. He subscribed to the concept that lower taxes would improve the economy, which also proved false.

    He had as a Federal Reserve Chairman a follower of Ayn Rand, Greenspan, who later admitted in front of a congressional panel that his worldview was wrong! Regulation is critical and Lesse Faire is a fraud.

    All this worldview accomplished was to advance coprorate profits and the consolidation of wealth. The poor and middle class were crushed.

  198. relo says:

    Silver lining.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAtzghyWQNok&pos=3

    Treasury officials said more homeowners will qualify for the program as they lose their jobs or encounter financial setbacks that leave them unable to afford their mortgages.

  199. plg says:

    Comrade,

    Please tell me you didnt just say this:

    “Gonna call me out? Fine. I don’t bike nearly as much as I used to, or as much as I’d like to. NJ is just too fcuking dangerous.”

    Because you do understand that the whole point of bike lanes is to make biking LESS DANGEROUS! The whole point of this money was to make biking in NJ safer and more practical!

    So you should be supporting these bike lanes, right?

  200. Veto That says:

    “You assume I am unfamiliar with the libertarian austrian school “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” economics?”

    PLG, i dont really assume that but I do think its kind of obvious that you have never debated with someone who refers to themeself as ‘Schumpeterian Depresssion’.

    it wont be long before you realize that most of the discussion here has more to do with the famines of 2012 than real estate bubbles.

    One thing that you and Clot will agree on is that when the currency collapses under the weight of all of its debt and the depression turns the citizens into starving, foreclosed cannabals then socialism will prob make a whole lot more sense.

    lol.

  201. njescapee says:

    who needs bike lanes? when i was a kid we used to ride from woodhaven queens over the 59th street bridge. rode all over town. even to the cloisters through the upper westside hoods, drank a quart or 2 of bud on the grass in central park and rode back home. jeez what a bunch of wusses.

  202. relo says:

    205: Proven? How so?

    He reduced taxes dramatically. He subscribed to the concept that lower taxes would improve the economy, which also proved false.

  203. Mr Hyde says:

    plg

    All this worldview accomplished was to advance coprorate profits and the consolidation of wealth.

    thats what i said.

    You need a lot more then bike lanes to make biking in camden safe! start with dealing with one of the highest murder rates in the nation.

    Bikes lanes arent going to help that

  204. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [207] plg

    Yes, I support bike lanes. But consider that no one will use them if they are simply to connect sketchy areas to one another. To me, that’s lipstick on a pig.

    Further, they must be segregated lanes, like old railroad beds. From my experience, putting a bike lane on a road in NJ will simply be interpreted as more parking, or a passing lane, by Jersey drivers. In Phila, they already have dedicated bike lanes in streets, but they are not policed, and using them means taking your life in your hands just as readily as if they were not there in the first place. Since you bike in Philly (as have I), you must know that.

    So build the dedicated, segregated bike lanes (given the cost, they aren’t just painting lines on streets but I could be wrong). Lots of money will flow to hardhats in SoJo and South Philly, and lots more will flow into the pockets of local powerbrokers. In the end, we have redistributed wealth from productive citizens to democratic wards, all to build something that VERY FEW PEOPLE will ever use for its intended purpose.

    I mean, does anyone do any sort of cost-benefit analysis here? No, and that is by design.

    Doesn’t sound like “stimulus” either, but that’s just my take.

  205. Veto That says:

    “You need a lot more then bike lanes to make biking in camden safe!”

    Hyde, Why do i think of ‘the warriors’ when i picture the bike path through camden?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P6MqHccBSI

  206. Thornton Melon says:

    207: Hey Professor, where you building these bike paths, fantasy land?

  207. Essex says:

    Not to diminish the fine work here today but let me summarize.

    Fire the folks who do the grunt work. Check.

    Aspire to greatness based on some Jeffersonian archetype.

    Float over the clouds while the whole thing implodes. Selling your gold as you fly.

  208. Veto That says:

    Essex, you forgot the bike path through the country’s most dangerous city.

  209. PGC says:

    #190 Ket

    I get the Nitrogen connection. Corn and wheat will get hammered by lower yields.

  210. A.West says:

    plg,
    I think that you are the real RE101. I always thought that RE101 was a lefty in right wing drag. You are his equal in terms of non-coherence, you match his overagressive pseudo right-wing rhetoric with ultra-Alan-Alda-like mawkishness and unthinking leftism. Furthermore, you wax as he wanes on the board.

    I’m pro-capitalist, pro Ayn Rand, etc. But even I feel sorry for the more thoughtful lefties on the board who have to tolerate you in their “camp”.

  211. PGC says:

    #200 Nom

    Yes we are different, he gets

    “I had defended you somewhat from the ad hominem because I thought your ideas should be debated on the merits.”

    I got, you’re a liberal uneducated moron who gets his talking points from Oberman….. :*)

    I haven’t had time to get into plg’s talking points. There are some I agree on, some I disagree on. I will say that he needs work on his delivery.

  212. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [219] A. West

    I know I shouldn’t keep coming to his defense, but personally, I think that plg is a lot more coherent than some of the lefties on this board in terms of actually trying to put some meat on the bones instead of calling names or throwing bombs. He (I am assuming he) at least tries to validate his positions, even if we think the position is weak.

    Though my bitch comment stands ;-)

  213. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [200] PGC

    I don’t recall calling you a liberal uneducated moron. First, it doesn’t sound like my writing unless I was having a really bad day.

    Second, there’s a triple redundancy there ;-)

  214. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    OT alert:

    Because we all need this . . .

    CNN is reporting that Lindsey Vonn has won the Women’s Downhill.

  215. A.West says:

    I like Devo. I have all of their good CDs, which are:
    Q:Are We Not Men? A:We are Devo
    Duty Now For The Future
    Freedom of Choice
    New Traditionalists
    Oh No It’s Devo

    They made some catchy offbeat tunes, and Mothersbaugh has stayed employed making film soundtracks and TV show music for decades. But he can give me a break about “stickin it to the corporations” by signing for an album with a big corporation and hiring an advertising agency.

  216. Shore Guy says:

    Ket,

    Do you have any stats on how those percentages have changed over the past 10 years? I recalled Ven and Nigeria being higher.

  217. PGC says:

    #222 nom

    I think the tea party refute your argument of triple redundancy.

  218. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    Suburban homeless: Rising tide of women, families

    ROOSEVELT, N.Y. – Homelessness in rural and suburban America is straining shelters this winter as the economy founders and joblessness hovers near double digits — a “perfect storm of foreclosures, unemployment and a shortage of affordable housing,” in one official’s eyes.

    “We are seeing many families that never before sought government help,” said Greg Blass, commissioner of Social Services in Suffolk County on eastern Long Island.

    “We see a spiral in food stamps, heating assistance applications; Medicaid is skyrocketing,” Blass added. “It is truly reaching a stage of being alarming.”
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/ap_on_re_us/us_suburban_homeless

    **This will be life in the new Communist States of America. Like the cold autumn wind.

    Not for me. Im gonna take my guns, gold, and bible and run.

  219. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    More Lindsey Vonn

    http://www.people.com/people/gallery/0,,20344616,00.html#20739961

  220. skep-tic says:

    there is plenty of regulation on the books. the structural failure of our government is not due to a lack of regulations. it is due to the incentives of the people who write/enforce them.

  221. Essex says:

    I was glad to see Vonn won…look forward to seeing the run tonight.

  222. Shadow of John says:

    “lipstick on a pig”

    That reminds me of a date I had on LI back in high school. Me and two buddies went slumming out in the country and got ripped on soe cheap wine that Ted Kennedy left in the backseat of my dads limo.

    We were pretty toasted when we heard the voices of two sweet young things who were peaddling this farm cart contraption from one of their houses to the others to get it redy for the county fair.

    We get to chatting and things are moving along really well until I get up to pi$$ and suddenly they scream with delight “Is THAT real”? I let them check it out. They said I was the biggest dic k they had ever seen and they got all h0rny but they decided that a smaller one would avoid pain so they dump me for my buddies.

    They go over into the field and start going at it and Im getting all hot and bothered when I notice that one of them left her purse there and on top was a tube of lipstick. I Was about to draw some on my thumb and index finger when I noticed that pig giving me the eye. I could see she wanted some so I applied some lipstick to her. Not bad looking either.

  223. Essex says:

    Folks let’s get something straight. I love America. Dammit.

  224. Essex says:

    John has had more loving than Marvin Gaye and Charles Nelson Reilly combined.

  225. Shoreguy@live.com says:

    “More Lindsey Vonn”

    This counts as a public service.

  226. danzud says:

    I thought the next Mad Max movie was going to be in Camden. If only they had a bike path for the movie set…….

  227. PGC says:

    #227 Al

    You should get an early start, I would hate to see you get stuck in traffic!

  228. Shoreguy@live.com says:

    Nom,

    Sometime over a beer, I have a fairly interesting Olympics experience to tell.

  229. Shoreguy@live.com says:

    Essex,

    Were they a couple?

  230. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    The trends master Gerald Celente is with the Judge Andrew Napolitano Freedom Watch Global Financial system is
    We are in the midst of a global financial crisis the like of which we have never seen before says Trends master Gerald Celente

    “Collapsing it is not just Greece it is global and all the governments are doing is dumping money into the problems …Greece is a bankrupt government who will never pay its debt back , we are in the midst of a global financial crisis the like of which we have never seen before …in The United States have the bonds problem we have California almost bankrupt , the root of the problem is the Fiat digital money that is created out of thin air and is worth less than the paper it is not printed in …explains Gerald Celente….”

  231. Ben says:

    “That is a hilarious analysis. You assume I am unfamiliar with the libertarian austrian school “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” economics?

    I just assumed it was proven wrong by George W. Bush. Now they crawl out again from under their rocks. Nothing new here.”

    George Bush practiced Austrian economics. I guess Veto’s assumption was right.

  232. plg says:

    All I am saying is even though you are doing your best to criticize the stimulus program, your grandchildren will thank you.

    The debt from the New Deal is a joke in comparison to the benefits we received. Kids are literally still be educated in building built then. We still get power from Hoover Dam. We still use libraries in many towns built during the New Deal. Almost every state park in NJ was started by the civilian conservation corps, a new deal program.

    Whether you are a keynesian or an austrian you cannot deny that the investments in infrastructure do not go into a black hole. They pay dividends for generations. You might disagree with the economic principles underlying the stimulus, but you cannot deny that projects are being completed that will improve lives for generations. This is why the Republican congressman who criticize the stimulus still attend the ribbon cutting ceremonies for stimulus projects.

  233. PGC says:

    #240 Ben

    Don’t think anyone is allowed to link Libertarian and GWB in the same post. Thats is a violation of the Ron Paul rule.

  234. relo says:

    241: You forgot your signatue sign-off.

    It is a fact.

  235. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    241.

    Keep on clinging to your dreams of utopia. The game is up and I am going to laugh my @ss off as all the dependent government tit suckers dreams are smashed.

    FDR’s social security was supposed to be insolvent by 2035. Oops we were only off by 25 years. Already 25 billion in the whole. Medicare insolvent by 2016. Medicaid is a joke. They pay like 8 bucks per surgery. Unemployment insurance being funded via Federal stimulus packages to a tune of 180 billion. How are the states going to fund unemployment without annual porkulous packages?

    Like the cold autumn wind…..

    “You Americans are so gullible. No, you won’t accept Communism outright; but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of Socialism until you will finally wake up and find that you already have Communism. We won’t have to fight you; we’ll so weaken your economy, until you fall like overripe fruit into our hands.”

    Your pal,

    Khrushchev

  236. jcer says:

    Jersey City, Hoboken, and Brooklyn are nothing like CAMDEN(Huge gov’t supported redevelopment has drastically changed the character of the cities). Here’s the thing NYC was growing hence the need for reclaiming former ghettos, rebuilding, adding all kinds of projects and bringing in monied residents because of proximity to the city center. Manhattan basically expanded beyond it’s boarders. Philly on the other hand is shrinking and prices are far more reasonable, it is not that hard to get good housing in Philly(or suburbs) for not to much or even in a nicer jersey suburb on the patco speedline. Camden is too ghetto, the housing stock is too far gone, and their is not enough economic advantage in living there to make it worth while. The only way Camden “happens” is if Philly becomes super desirable and prices spike, then developers move in and build some big redevelopment projects. Short of this to make Camden viable they’d need basically redevelop the city under government control and sell/rent properties way below market.

  237. PGC says:

    #241 plg

    Your mistake here is that you do not respond to the point before moving on.

    Clot

    You cannot lay the extension of, or and of the Great Depression on FDR. That bus was hitting the wall long before he took the wheel (sounds familiar some how). The biggest F-up was Hoover having the farmers plough over the fields to stifle demand and keep the commodity prices high (Deja Vu).

    If you want to lay blame, get back to dear Woodrow. He is the cause of it then and the reverberations can still be heard today.

    I would have though you had this as a poster on the wall of the office.

    “I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world, no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”

  238. PGC says:

    #244 Al

    The problem here is now how you think things will play out, but more you fail to appreciate how the situation was arrived at. Socialism and social programs did not get us into this mess, this was pure Capitalism and Greed. Where, since the days of Khruschev has Socialism been allowed in gvmt. Democrats in the White house, Johnston, Carter and Clinton did not get to enact any great left wing agenda. Balance them off against how the Bushes, Reagan and Nixon shaped today’s society.

  239. NJGator says:

    Why doesn’t N.J. hold a referendum on soaring pension debt?

    In his speech last week, Gov. Chris Christie gave a couple of examples of why the state pension funds are going broke. One was that of a public employee who paid in a mere $124,000 during his career, but is projected to receive more than $3.3 million in pension payments.

    Hold on, you may have thought. I can’t even afford to retire at 65. Yet I’m supposed to pay taxes to fund a lottery-sized payoff to send checks to some guy who moved to Florida at 55? When did I ever agree to that?

    You didn’t. But you should have had the chance.

    The framers of our 1947 state constitution were wise men who realized that politicians love to give things away in the present and let someone else pay for them in the future. To that end, the framers created the “debt-limitation clause.” That clause requires a referendum before the state can incur “a debt or debts, liability or liabilities of the state” that exceeds 1 percent of the budget for the year in question.

    As the governor noted last week, we’re running up debt at a rate that would require putting aside about $7 billion in next year’s budget. That’s about 25 percent of expected revenues. So why no referendum?

    As with virtually every other crisis that has made this state ungovernable, the fault lies with the state Supreme Court. That question should have arisen back in 1997 when then-Gov. Christie Whitman decided to borrow $2.7 billion to put into the pension funds. The court could have strictly enforced the debt-limitation clause. The subsequent referendum almost certainly would have been voted down.

    Instead the court gutted the clause. That set off both a big borrowing binge and a big giveaway to the unions in the form of higher pensions and lower retirement ages. And now the state is stuck with all that debt.

    But if we taxpayers can’t rely on the courts, then neither can the unions. In 2007, the New Jersey Education Association went to court to force the Corzine administration to make its scheduled annual payment to the teachers’ pension fund. But Mercer County Superior Court Judge Linda Feinberg ruled that the court lacked the authority to issue such an order as long as the fund remains solvent. And it will be solvent for at least the next 10 years or so. Freed from that obligation, Jon Corzine decided not to contribute to the fund in his final budget. So why should Christie contribute to the fund in his first budget?

    He’s already said he’s not going to do so. Instead Christie is offering the unions a deal that might finally give you an opportunity to vote on pension debt. He’s told the unions that if they accept certain long-overdue reforms and reductions, he will push for a constitutional amendment to be put on the ballot. That amendment would require the state to make its annual contributions to the funds that provide pensions for state, county, municipal and school employees. This is a great idea. In fact if I were Christie I would not merely propose that referendum. I would insist on it.

    Consider what would happen if the public passed the amendment. Union members would then have the same guarantee that bondholders get when the voters approve public debt. This is a guarantee that if the Legislature fails to pay the debt in any given year, the state must impose “a tax on the real and personal property upon which municipal taxes are or shall be assessed” to pay the debt.

    Would you vote to put your house up as collateral for a former public employee’s pad in Palm Beach? Me, neither. As Corzine so colorfully put it, pigs would fly before that referendum would get past the voters. And once it failed, the pension funds would have to be liquidated and divided up equally among the workers — just like in real life.

    So I don’t expect to see that referendum on the ballot. Public-employee unions fear nothing more than the public. But if I were one of the leaders of those unions, I would consider the unpleasant reality that this is not a lottery. It’s a game of poker. And the governor always has the winning hand. Every governor since Whitman has passed the problem off to the next governor. And Christie can do so as well.

    As for the guy who wins the governorship in 2017 or 2021, he’s going to have a heck of a problem on his hands. But that problem is not Christie’s problem. And it’s not my problem. And it’s not your problem.

    It’s the problem of that guy sitting in Florida watching his mailbox. And he’d better get on the phone to the union bosses.

    http://blog.nj.com/njv_paul_mulshine/2010/02/why_nj_doesnt_hold_referendum.html

  240. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    247.

    NAFTA. Your buddy Al Gore sold America on that one and almost sold dumb ass Americans on global warming as well.

    The manufacturing that remained after NAFTA was destroyed by unions. Oh well. They are useless eaters anyway dependent on collective organization because individually they cant survive at all.

    Give me one reason why a janitor mopping floors in Trenton needs a union.

  241. Schumpeter says:

    plg (189)-

    I will grant you this point, but those projects also stand as testament to the fact that the concept of creating great public works as an economic stim has devolved into paving/repaving everything in sight and bridges to nowhere.

    The creation of Hoover Dam also indirectly exacerbated the overpopulation of the West and all the water/resource wars that have ensued. It’s one of the biggest boondoggles of all time.

  242. PGC says:

    #249 Al

    I think NAFTA was signed by GWHB. He wanted to fast track it as his Legacy. I don’t think he could get it under the wire so Clinton was left to sign it into law after congress signed off on it.

    Personally I think NAFTA was a big mistake and Mexico and Canada are paying the price.

  243. Schumpeter says:

    al (191)-

    Dude, did you just rent Wall-e or something?

    “An entire nation of devolving human who no longer need knee joints because they waddle from side to side. Pretty soon they will lose their limbs and just flop about on the ground like the average walrus.”

  244. Schumpeter says:

    veto (193)-

    Kindly stop discouraging people here from piling on. When people pile on, that’s when you can really hurt the opponent. You can eye-gouge, rabbit punch and do all kinds of other neat stuff under all that cover.

    “My favorite part of clot crucifying plg is when all the njreport minions jump in to support him as if he cant handle the fight himself.”

  245. Schumpeter says:

    hyde (202)-

    This guy is hopeless. He’s already somehow forgotten that GWB- besides being Mussolini-lite, above all else- presided over the rig-up of the biggest Keynesian money bomb of all time.

  246. Schumpeter says:

    plg (205)-

    “Lesse Faire”???

    Is this one of those cry-ass women’s music festivals you attend?

  247. Schumpeter says:

    I will bet anyone here ten thousand dollars that plg has every Sarah McLachlan record ever made.

  248. Nomad says:

    Regarding the NJ pension situation, if the state pension fund officially goes bust, isn’t there some federal pension program that picks up the tab? And if this is the case, American’s will have to pick up the tab for this mess too. Correct?

  249. Schumpeter says:

    plume (223)-

    Did she take her clothes off?

    That, I’ll tune in for.

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    Any day now he’s going to come and grab your guns, better keep stocking up!

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  251. Veto That says:

    “As the governor noted last week, we’re running up debt at a rate that would require putting aside about $7 billion in next year’s budget. That’s about 25 percent of expected revenues.”

    Gator, good article but this part doesnt seem right to me.
    Our total debt is $30 billion. Why is the debt service %7 billion next year? I thought it was about 10% of revenues each year.

  252. Veto That says:

    “Kindly stop discouraging people here from piling on. When people pile on, that’s when you can really hurt the opponent.”

    Sorry clot, i thought you killed him.

  253. Schumpeter says:

    Meh. Wake me up when they allow pistol duels at ten paces again.

  254. Schumpeter says:

    veto (261)-

    Then let’s dig him up and kill him again.

  255. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    251. I cant remember. It doesnt matter they are all globalists anyway. I still want to know why the Bush family bought 100,000 acres in Paraquay. Bush Sr. was one evil bastard. His son doesnt fall far from the tree.

  256. freedy says:

    in nj , homeowners are so far underwater,most should just stop paying the banks,

    then someone may get the message.

  257. Outofstater says:

    #257 I don’t think so. If the state pension plan goes bust, that’s it. The state would have to raise money somehow to pay benefits. If the state can’t raise enough money, benefits would have to be cut. Public pensions are guaranteed only by a promise to pay. Private pensions are insured, with premiums paid to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp by the company. The PBGC is backstopped by the federal government; state pension plans are totally on their own.

  258. hero says:

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  259. A.West says:

    plg,
    are you familiar with the concepts of NPV or IRR?
    Just because something provides a dividend doesn’t mean it was a good investment or an optimal investment.
    Do governments have a process for coordinating and optimizing scarce capital into the highest IRR projects? Of course not, or the USSR would be the world’s largest economy.
    Check out “Socialism” by Ludwig von Mises. I think you can find it free by googling it.

  260. Mr Hyde says:

    econo 271.

    I LOL’d :)

  261. brewcrew says:

    Thermo, #227

    Don’t place too much stock in housing trouble, and the economy in general, based upon the number of homeless in Roosevelt, NY. That place has been a sh*th*le for 40 years. Same with other wonderful suburban locales such as Wyandanch and Hempstead. Think of them as Long Island’s own Trenton, Camden, and Irvington.

  262. Stu says:

    1.5 million for bike paths in Camden?

    Sure. That should work out to a cost of like 100 grand per user.

    Is this really a good use of stimulus money?

    http://tinyurl.com/bike-lanes-Camden

  263. chicagofinance says:

    Westy: yes…and who is in the center ;-) ?

    219.A.West says:
    February 17, 2010 at 5:07 pm
    plg,
    I think that you are the real RE101. I always thought that RE101 was a lefty in right wing drag. You are his equal in terms of non-coherence, you match his overagressive pseudo right-wing rhetoric with ultra-Alan-Alda-like mawkishness and unthinking leftism. Furthermore, you wax as he wanes on the board.

  264. chicagofinance says:

    I ask the gods why he wasn’t destined to do it to Bobby Flay?

    186.Veto That says:
    February 17, 2010 at 3:58 pm
    watching clot destroy plg makes me realize that he actually takes it easy on the rest of us.

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