Case Shiller Day! (September home prices)

From the WSJ:

S&P Case-Shiller: US Home Prices Fall In September, 3Q

U.S. home prices dropped in September from a month earlier and the rate of decline showed signs of accelerating, according to the S&P Case-Shiller home-price indexes. Third-quarter prices were also down.

The indexes, based on the three-month averages of home prices, had fallen in August for the first time in four months, a delayed response to the housing-market weakness following the expiration of federal home-buyer tax credits in April.

The Case-Shiller index of 10 major metropolitan areas dipped 0.5% from August, while the 20-city index decreased 0.7%. Adjusted for seasonal factors, the declines were 0.7% and 0.8%, respectively.

For the third quarter, the S&P Case-Shiller U.S. National Home Price Index posted a 1.5% decrease from a year earlier. It declined 2% sequentially.

The economy continues to weigh on the housing market, along with the large supply of houses and “hidden” supply from delinquent mortgages, pending foreclosures or vacant homes, said David Blitzer, chairman of S&P’s index committee.

From MarketWatch:

Sept. home prices down 0.7%: S&P/Case-Shiller

The prices of single-family homes in 20 major cities fell a non-seasonally adjusted 0.7% in September, according to the S&P/Case-Shiller home price index released Tuesday by Standard & Poor’s. Prices have moved up 0.6% in the past year, down from 1.7% in August. This is the fourth consecutive month where annual growth rates moderated from the prior month’s pace, confirming a “clear deceleration in home price returns,” S&P said. Home prices decreased in 18 of the 20 metropolitan areas tracked by Case-Shiller in September compared with August.

From Bloomberg:

Home Prices in 20 US Cities Probably Cooled in September as Sales Fell

Real-estate prices in 20 U.S. cities probably rose in September at the slowest pace in eight months, showing the latest slump in sales is destabilizing housing, economists said before a report today.

The S&P/Case-Shiller index of property values climbed 1 percent from September 2009, the smallest year-over-year gain since February, when the market began to recover following a three-year drop, according to the median forecast of 28 economists surveyed by Bloomberg News. Other reports may show consumer confidence rose and businesses expanded.

The end of a government tax credit for homebuyers and unemployment hovering near 10 percent have led to a decrease in demand, delaying a recovery in the industry that precipitated the worst recession since the 1930s. Declining home values threaten to undermine the improvement in consumer confidence that is helping boost spending and accelerate economic growth.

“We’re in for more downward adjustment on home prices,” said Neil Dutta, an economist at Bank of America Merrill Lynch Global Research in New York. “People don’t want to buy a house when they think it’s going to lose value. A return to a normal housing market is going to be measured in years, not months.”

The S&P/Case-Shiller figures are due at 9 a.m. New York time. Survey estimates ranged from an increase of 1.6 percent to a decline of 3.4 percent, after a 1.7 percent gain in August.

This entry was posted in Economics, Housing Bubble, National Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

154 Responses to Case Shiller Day! (September home prices)

  1. grim says:

    From the WSJ:

    Housing Still Awaits Its Happy Ending

    The economy and consumers are looking a bit perkier these days. Housing, not so much.

    Last week, the government revised upward its estimate of third-quarter gross domestic product growth, weekly jobless claims fell to their lowest level in two years and personal incomes posted a strong gain in October. Consumer-confidence data due Tuesday are expected to rise, while Friday’s November employment report could show the addition of another 150,000 or so jobs.

    Housing is a different story. October new-home sales sank 8.1% to a seasonally adjusted annual pace of only 283,000, just off record lows, while existing-home sales slid 2.2% in October to a 4.43 million annual rate. On Tuesday, S&P/Case-Shiller home-price index data through September is expected to show a 0.5% month-on-month fall, while pending home sales figures Thursday are also expected to remain weak.

    But the market is merely bouncing along a bottom, and demand is tepid, even with mortgage rates below 4.5%. Even excluding the summer surge, the number of months of housing inventory for sale is still at its highest level since November 2008. Plus, the figures don’t include 2.1 million units of “shadow” inventory not yet on the market, according to Corelogic, largely foreclosures in process.

    The danger is that today’s renewed housing slowdown leads to a further leg down for home prices. Janney Capital Markets, at the bearish end of the spectrum, expects prices could fall another 10% to 15% by year-end 2012. That would clearly pose risks to the economy and banks. While most bigger banks would probably weather additional price falls of as much as 5%, a double-digit decline could force many to again build loan-loss reserves, denting profit.

    Further price falls will eventually get sales moving again. For now though, it is likely declines will breed even more uncertainty, keeping home buyers on the sidelines and the housing market on its back.

  2. grim says:

    From the Star Ledger:

    Newark finalizes 167 police layoffs after union refuses Booker’s plea to return to negotiating table

    After months of verbal jousting and public finger-pointing between union leaders and the Booker administration, 167 Newark police officers turned in their guns and badges, finalizing the department’s largest reduction in force in 32 years.

    Union president Derrick Hatcher killed any chance of an eleventh-hour deal Monday morning when he rebuked Mayor Cory Booker’s final plea to return to the negotiating table, according to an e-mail obtained by The Star-Ledger.

    “This e-mail is to inform you that our membership has expressed no interest in re-opening the contract or executing any side agreements with the City of Newark regarding the Lay Offs,” wrote Hatcher, president of Newark’s Fraternal Order of Police, in response to an e-mail from Booker titled “Trying Again.”

  3. grim says:

    From New Jersey Newsroom:

    Christie administration told it owes feds $271M for halting ARC Tunnel project

    The Christie administration has until Christmas Eve to pay the federal government the more than $271 million it owes for canceling the Hudson commuter rail ARC Tunnel project that would have connected New Jersey with midtown Manhattan.

    The bill from the Frederal Transit Administration was received by NJ Transit Director Jim Weinstein on Thanksgiving Eve for $271,101,291. The letter said the money was due in 30 days.

    The FTA wants NJ Transit to repay for work done on the tunnel before Gov. Chris Christie terminated the project. The letter is an official demand for payment and follows a warning letter earlier this month estimating the charges. Weinstein said earlier this month that the state hadn’t determined if it would have to pay any money back.

  4. yo'me says:

    Testimony by a Bank of America Corp. employee in a New Jersey personal bankruptcy case may give more ammunition to homeowners and investors in their legal battles over defaulted mortgages.

    Linda DeMartini, a team leader in the company’s mortgage- litigation management division, said during a U.S. Bankruptcy Court hearing in Camden last year that it was routine for the lender to keep mortgage promissory notes even after loans were bundled by the thousands into bonds and sold to investors, according to a transcript. Contracts for such securitizations usually require the documents to be transferred to the trustee for mortgage bondholders.

    In the case, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Judith H. Wizmur on Nov. 16 rejected a claim on the home of John T. Kemp, ruling his mortgage company, now owned by Bank of America, had failed to deliver the note to the trustee. That could leave the trustee with no standing to take the property, and raises the question of whether other foreclosures could similarly be blocked.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-30/bofa-mortgage-morass-deepens-after-employee-says-trustee-didn-t-get-notes.html

  5. Mike says:

    Prices need to be slashed not adjusted. When the new norm kicks in, gradually you will keep seeing outsourced government and private sector employees. Try paying the mortgage, taxes, and your own healthcare at these prices. Wonder if realtors can be outsourced to work for .25% commisions

  6. grim (2)-

    Kudos to Booker for (wittingly or unwittingly) initiating the demise of the Newark Police Union Ponzi. Certainly those 167 layoffs will be the newcomers to the scheme: fleeced, then sacrificed for benefit of those in the higher tiers of the pyramid.

    Next thing Booker should do is begin negotiating with gangs in order to cede parts of the city to each one. Less area for the remaining cops to patrol.

  7. Yves Smith at NakedCapitlism has a very interesting post about servicer driven foreclosures. I haven’t waded through the Senate testimony on the subject yet, but long story short; At least with loan sharks you know you’re getting f***ed.

  8. yo (4)-

    Produce the note, mf’er.

  9. #7 – NakedCapitAlism
    – Can’t spell too well this early

  10. If he can jump into the stands at Crystal Palace and kung-fu the fans, he can lead a bank run.

    All hail Cantona!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-WmfTIRUWY

  11. Nomad says:

    Any guesses as to how much a barrel of oil will cost on 3.31.11?

    “The economy and consumers are looking a bit perkier these days.” Just a bit of delusional holiday cheer me thinks. Can someone tell me how the employment situation will recover? People I know say I have to have faith that things will get better on the jobs front – faith is great, now tell me just how it will happen cause I can’t see it.

    Wiki Leaks: they said in early ’11 they are releasing info on one of the major banks? GS or BOA? Anyone think we will learn something new or our opinions of these institutions will change as a result of the info?

  12. Fast Eddie says:

    A return to a normal housing market is going to be measured in years, not months.”

    Dear Sellers,

    tick…. tick…. tick…. tick….

  13. Fast Eddie says:

    “We’re in for more downward adjustment on home prices,” said Neil Dutta, an economist at Bank of America Merrill Lynch Global Research in New York.

    Dear Potential Buyers,

    What part aren’t you getting? Let me try it again: the moment you leave the closing with the key for the front, you’re already underwater.

  14. Fast Eddie says:

    front = front door

  15. Essex says:

    Let’s party like its nineteen twenty nine!

  16. Mike says:

    Fast Number 13 Kind of like driving that new car out of the showroom it automatically drops 15%

  17. Essex says:

    16. Yep. But cars are important for most people as are homes. Depreciation? Perhaps. But a necessity of life. A richly deserved perk for the achievers in our society. A place to rest one’s head and procreate in the way that the Lord intended. Invest in New Jersey. WWGCD — What Would Governor Christie Do.

  18. Shore Guy says:

    Low food prices? Good.

    Low automobile prices? Good.

    Low clothing prices? Good.

    Clearly, we see low prices as a good thing. After all, who rushes into a store to buy at a higher price? Look around this week, prices drop, and people buy.

    The only people who cheer overpriced reaal estate are people who overpaid for it. I feel for them but, get over it. Affordable housing is a good thing; overpriced housing — which forces many to take on excessive debt to acquire — is a bad thing.

    VHS v. Beta, there are always winners and losers in the marketplace. That others bet incorrectly is no reason to try and prop up prices on overpriced homes.

  19. Shore Guy says:

    “WWGCD ”

    I dunno but, I suspect it would start with a nice meal.

  20. Essex says:

    19. Or two….

  21. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    Housing needs a happy ending?????
    I bet JJ could suggest a few good Asian massage parlours that could solve that problem. What is the world coming to when a trillion dollars in taxpayer funded cash can’t buy you a happy ending?

  22. JJ says:

    speaking of happy endings, my male friend got a legimate massage gift certificate, a nice looking girl rubbed him down and that was it, no happy ending. Even weirder it cost more than the happy ending type. Like going to Peter Lugar and being forced to spit out the steak.

    On more important news Tom Brady of the Patriots is now the Spokesperson for Uggs.

  23. grim says:

    I bet there are lots of happy endings at the Fed and Treasury circle jerks.

  24. #23 I bet there are lots of happy endings at the Fed and Treasury circle jerks.

    Just got a mental image of Bernanke that’s going to take a while to eradicate…. lemonparty…

  25. Outofstater says:

    #2 & #6 Tell me again why people don’t just fire their unions. This is sickening. What is the legal mechanism by which New Jersey can become a right to work state?

  26. Schrodinger's cat says:

    Tosh

    Bergabe would like a little respect!!!

    http://lolfed.com/wp-content/uploads/bernanke-qe2-fomc.jpg

  27. Essex says:

    Oh the irony, Chris costs NJ big $$$$ of course it is the unions fault.

  28. JJ says:

    I get a happy ending every 1st and 15th of month when I get my coupon payments. I am glad the Irish and German realizes how it important it is to protect bond holders. Free Market Capitalism at it’s finest. I am still however, I did not know this info last Friday so I could have bought some Irish Bank Senior Bonds.

    Actually they protected bond holders only cuase when you stiff them they have a much longer memory than shareholders, companies, like AIG, GM and GMAC are still shut out of debt markets but can issue shares. You stiff people on bonds you can’t raise money cheap for a good 5-10 years.

    Actually, GMAC is the biggest mystery to me. They have a huge amount of bonds outstanding from the glory days of GM Financing and Rescap. 2003-2007,. Yet they continue to pay interest, no BK, no mandatory haircut, no tender offer with a gun to the head. They even issued lots of monthly coupon bonds in 1k denominations and many are POD payable on death, the longer maturities ones 20-25 years even have a 8 or 9% coupon. 80 year old granny can buy one and as soon as she kicks the bucket just put a death certificate in and get paid at PAR. Back in early 2009 these bonds were selling at 50 cents on the dollar. Yet GMAC wasn’t even trying to buy them back. If I had a 30 year bond at 8% trading at 50 cents on a dollar I would almost go to a loan shark to buy it back. Yet GMAC did not.

    Funny how no one ever talks about govt. owned GMAC too much where the bondholders unlike GM took no hit. Even if you bought at peak in 2006 a 20 year GMAC bond at a 7% coupon, what is risk? You can hold to maturity and get back par plus 20 years worth of 7% interest or if you die before maturity you get par. Why sell. Think about this at 7% coupon, your risk to principal goes like this year one 93, year two 86, year three 79, year four 73, year five 66 etc. Since GMAC has not issued a new bond in years bond holders have very little principal risk and are getting above average yields. Meanwhile GM bond holders have not got a interest check since default and their bonds are being convert into GM stock that pays no dividend at 30 cents on a dollar. One retiree who bought 100K worth of GMAC bonds with a 7% coupon in November 2006 still has a 100K bond plus 28K of interest checks for a grand total of 128k . the other retiree who bought a 100K 7% GM bond in 2006 got two years of interest before default or 14k and now has 30K of GM stock. Grand total of 44k. Brokers were selling GM and GMAC as the same credit rating back them and they were almost interchangable. This is why the bail out causes madness. The haphazard way people were punished for stupidity. Both the GM and GMAC bond investor of 2006 took on risk. Heck I bought a five year GMAC bond during the summer of 2005 as they were doing employee pricing and zero percent interest stuff and got a high coupon. I ended up getting five years worth of good interest and full payment on maturity. Pure luck.

  29. Essex says:

    6. In any company that RIFs rmployees, it is the junior people that get the axe. Always. Rarely do the senior people get canned. Reality.

  30. JJ says:

    RIF, is that Reading is Fundamental .

    Interestingly in one company I was at they spared the interns and cheap mgt trainees and new hires out of college in last 1-3 years and kept all the senior people. But in reality the middle pack are just 5-10 years away from being the expensive people and lots of senior people were 5-10 years from retirement anyhow. So it cost company more to do it this way currently but five years out it saved the company a lot.

  31. Mr Wantanapolous says:

    “I did not know this info last Friday so I could have bought some Irish Bank Senior Bonds.”

    JJ,

    Luck you didn’t, you would have been smoked. The cost of cds on Irish govt debt continued to increase yesterday and today. The crisis is far from over.

  32. Mr Wantanapolous says:

    Lucky.

  33. grim says:

    Headline updated with the S&P September data. Looks like the second leg down is clearly in full effect.

  34. homeboken says:

    JJ – those happy endings you get twice a month, I suppose that is part of the pre-requisite to being a “real man” per your posts from yesterday?

  35. All "H-Train" Hype says:

    Case-Shiller down 0.7%. Fast Eddie is right. Sign on the dotted line and you are now underwater…

    http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2010/11/case-shiller-broad-based-declines-in.html

  36. Essex says:

    My wife is my happy ending. Waaay hotter than any other chick i know.

  37. Essex says:

    35. That number is miniscule. You lose more just waking up every day.

  38. grim says:

    From CNBC:

    Home Prices in September Fall Faster than Expected

    Prices of single-family homes in September fell more than twice as fast as expected from the prior month, while prices compared to a year earlier rose more slowly than forecast, according to a widely watched index of U.S. home prices released on Tuesday.

    The Standard & Poor’s/Case-Shiller composite index of 20 metropolitan areas declined 0.8 percent in September from August on a seasonally adjusted basis.

    Economists polled by Reuters had expected a decline of 0.3 percent.

  39. Al Gore says:

    “We are on the verge of watching Western Civilization crumble into dust because the politicians wont listen and the bankers are too greedy to save the nation licking their lips at short term government bonds.”

    Another classic by Martin Armstrong
    http://www.martinarmstrong.org/files/Indirect%20v%20Direct%20Stimulus%2011-21-2010.pdf

  40. JJ says:

    Depends how many other chicks you know. Usually the one you marry is a compromise. I dated a Virgin, I dated a trust fund girl with millions, I dated a girl so beautiful she was a fashion model for a while and was on the cover of cosmo and vouge at one point, I dated a girl amazing beyond belief in bed, a girl so cool to hang out with my friends would beg me to invite her along, I date the happy homemaker, just wanted to cook for me, clean for me, bear children whatever I wanted.

    However, I never dated a super hot super cool multi millionaire virgin who all she wanted to do was marry me, clean up for me, pay all my bills let me hang with my friends and of course let me de-flower her. Even better let me do her sisters and friends. It does not exist. It is the Ferrari that seat six gets 60 miles per gallon and costs under $10,000.

    However, most try to marry the girl who in the aggregate is good looking, not broke, petty good in bed, you like hanging out with and is willing to have your children and do some housecleaning and cooking. When I say most people try, most people don’t even get that.

    If I had to do it over again I would have gone with the virgin then divorced her then married super rich girl then divorced her and took half her money and then marry my current wife. But I took the easy way out and made my future 3rd wife my first wife.

    Essex says:
    November 30, 2010 at 9:34 am

    My wife is my happy ending. Waaay hotter than any other chick i know.

  41. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    Al,

    maybe the Illuminati are correct. perhaps a reduction to 1billion global population is the solution ;) Where do i buy my seat amongst the 1 billion?

  42. Juice Box says:

    re: # 28 – Cumon JJ we all know the old GM was a bank that made cars. Just like GE is a bank that makes Locomotives. These manufacturing companies really need to stay out of the debt game of Shadow Banking. It only gets them into trouble and they then need to go crying to Uncle Sam for a bailout.

    As far as GMAC aka Ally Financial they also suspended most foreclosures, so where are they getting the money to make the payments, oh wait they got 17 Billion in TARP loans they have not paid back. Fear not however they are planning an IPO for 2011 so make sure you tell your broker now you want your allocation.

  43. Mr Wantanapolous says:

    Essex [37],

    Insignificant? Are you drunk this morning? Look at the trend; it’s Chinese water tortue, to continue for an extended period of time. The losses, peak/trough, will be huge. If you lose more, each day, just by waking up, it’s probably time for a career change.

    http://cr4re.com/charts/charts.html?Home-Prices#category=Home-Prices&chart=CSSeptYoy2010.jpg

  44. JJ says:

    North Korea, Iraq, Iran, Paki, Afgainstain, Haiti, India, China, boy wiping out countries is like eating one potato chip, hard to stop. Heck why don’t we just start with Muslins, Jehova Witeness, Hasidics, etc. So many to pretend to get rid of and so few time

  45. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    JJ

    I’d start with those dirty europeans first!

  46. Anon E. Moose says:

    Mike [5];

    Wonder if realtors can be outsourced to work for .25% commisions

    Outsourced, no. Disintermediated, you betcha. The guild has seen the future and it is Expedia/Travelocity/Orbitz. Their stranglehold on the data is the only reason the industry hasn’t been reduced to Liberty Travel already.

  47. Anon E. Moose says:

    Lamar [8];

    You pay, you stay — No dough, gotta go.

  48. make money says:

    JJ[40],

    Classic post. But thisi is what I would do if I was to do it again.
    Marry the trust fund, hire maids for cooking and cleaning, take a few Millions and buy an established CASH business. Get yourself a security deposit box and stash cash, Hide Shiny in your Mom’s basement, use cash on a hot supermodel and the frieks in the sheets, lend money to all family memebers for DP’s and business ventures, buy PSL’s for all your friends and a bar (restaurant/lounge) for your best friend. Live like this until about 35 yrs old. Don’t have sex with your wife for six months…stick to side action only and watch her beg you for a divorce. She’s say its all her fault and she’ll give you half of everything without courts and lawyers cause she “feels” bad for messing up your life and wants to remain “friends”.

    You then marry “your” wife, dump all the side action and have some kids. Keep her home so she is dependant on you and you still have your business, shiny, cash, friends and family that owe you for helping them abd giving them a jumpstart, a best friends getaway place for lifetime of free drinks, food and a place to go an be JJ, PSl’s and you ex wife as a long term “friend”. Downfall is that you have to drive a used 5 series and live in a standard 2,500 sq. foot home for at least decade. Which means no beach houses until you’re 45 ish and oldest kid is 10.

  49. make money says:

    If you lose more, each day, just by waking up, it’s probably time for a career change.

    Wanta,

    That’s the day I decided to retire.

  50. moose (46, 47)-

    They’ve been saying “disintermediation” since 1995. “Travel agent” gets mentioned a lot, too. It’s almost 2011…and it still hasn’t happened. BTW, the information is not under a stranglehold anymore, so you need to go ahead and acknowledge that you’re just too lazy/ignorant to get it.

    Your bankster/gubmint paymasters opened Pandora’s Box. Too bad now that all the gremlins that were let loose can’t be rounded up and put back in the box. However, I’m sure these crooks will succeed in directing their Congress to decree that forgery, bank fraud and perjury are OK in instances where servicers need a little “look back” in order to create a chain of conveyances that either never existed or were hastily and improperly forged, like a fake doctor’s note scribbled by a fourth grader.

    Funny thing about this rule of law stuff: you can’t be just a little crooked. If the courts and Congress won’t punish the banksters, the eventual bank run and subsequent default demanded by John Q will.

  51. 250K says:

    Schrodinger,

    Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, :

    http://www.splitreason.com/product/1044

  52. Think what you will about Realtors. Chances are that a vast majority of people will never willingly negotiate six and seven-figure deals without a third party negotiating.

    Most of the whiners who had a beef with the existence of the RE industry left this blog about three years ago. Perhaps Moose can find them in the bowels of EBay or Craigslist.

  53. leftwing says:

    “This e-mail is to inform you that our membership has expressed no interest in re-opening the contract or executing any side agreements with the City of Newark regarding the Lay Offs,” wrote Hatcher, president of Newark’s Fraternal Order of Police, in response to an e-mail from Booker titled “Trying Again.”

    Wonder if the membership were actually polled what they would say, versus what the union Pres says. Brave new world folks.

  54. al (39)-

    I knocked on the door when I was at Fort Dix a couple weeks ago, but the guy with the gun said Martin couldn’t come out and play.

  55. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    250K

    Thanks!!

  56. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    250K

    What about Kwanzaa and Diwali?

  57. 250K says:

    Schrod, I actually wrote
    Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, insert winter holiday of your choice here

    …so as to be PC, but I put it all in “” and I guess it thought it was some crazy html and it didn’t show up.

  58. Anon E. Moose says:

    Lamar [50];

    Funny thing about this rule of law stuff: you can’t be just a little crooked.

    “Out of the crooked timber of humanity no straight thing was ever made.” -Kant

    Did we all miss the fact that the deadbeat Horoskis on Long Island won’t be getting a free house as reward for defaulting on their mortgage after all? NY Post story; Appellate Decision b!tch slapping the learned Justice Spinner (Money quote, “[T]here was no acceptable basis for relieving the homeowner of her contractual obligations to the bank.” )

    And at the end of the road, the fine upstanding deadbeat Horoskis defaulted on their mortgage in 2005, and still have not been removed from the bank’s property as we usher out 2010. That’s the lesson that deadbeats everywhere are learning and learning well — default = 5 years of free living.

  59. 250K says:

    um, trying to say I put text within angle brackets and so it was read as html and didn’t show up. So how does one type an actual angle bracket or inequality sign and get it to show on this message board?

  60. I am sure Judge Spinner is the best judge money can buy.

    Look at it this way, Moose: this whole fraudclosure thing will seem like small potatoes once Joe 6 is queued up at the bank, rioting in the streets and electing candidates who promise to hit the default/reset button.

  61. Anon E. Moose says:

    250k [59];

    Assuming you’re using some form of Windoze: Start -> All Programs -> Accesories -> System Tools -> Character Map

    Gives you acces to a myriad of typographical characters that are not on the keyboard.

  62. Anon E. Moose says:

    Lamar [60];

    Read more carefully, Spinner is the idiot giving away the Bank’s property to deadbeats, a ¼-million at a time. I used “learned justice” as a homage to a former professor, who correctly observed that if one reads enough decisions, ‘learned bretheren’ below the appellate level are reversed with alarming frequency. If there is no slap, there’s no need for velvet on the glove.

  63. JJ says:

    I love it, only downside was the rich girl had two special qualifications, rich and extremely good in bed. I don’t think I could lay off her for six months. Her only limitation was around the world could only be north to south. No round trips

  64. NJGator says:

    Nom – Miss this at all?

    Akin Gump Partner Pens Email Fantasy About Firing Delinquent Time Keepers

    MEMORANDOM FROM STEVEN PESNER REGARDING TIME KEEPING

    Subject: Read Carefully!

    To All NY Litigation Attorneys, Paralegals and Secretaries:

    First, I want to thank those of you who do your time sheets on a daily basis. We should respect, recognize and thank those people who play by the rules.

    Now for the rest of you, let’s make sure we understand what the real story is on time sheets, in my view:

    1. Every time keeper is required to do a 100% accurate time sheet every single day;

    2. That time sheet is required to be completed on the same day as the work you do on the various matters. That is the only real way, in my view, to accurately record your time;

    3. The consequences of failing to accurately record your time range from “having to make up” your time entries (a potential fraud on our clients) to under-recording your time (a detriment to your law firm);

    4. Your daily time sheet should be given to your secretary BEFORE you leave for the day or first thing the next morning for those us us who also work after leaving the office;

    5. Your secretary should input and release your time sheet the morning after your work has been done;

    6. It is the timekeeper’s responsibility to complete her/his time sheet as set forth above;

    7. It is the secretary’s responsibility to make sure that the timekeeper does so and to input and release the time sheet daily;

    8. The concept that time sheets are not due until the last day of the month, last day of a week or some time other than daily simply is wrong; they are due at the end of every day or first thing the following morning for those of us who also work after leaving the office;

    9. For those of you who think you are exempt from doing time sheets on a daily basis, I’d suggest that you re-evaluate your importance and get ready to prove that (a) you are busier than I am on legal work, (b) you are busier than I am on client development work, (c) you are busier than I am on firm work and (d) [Redacted] and I do not have better things to do with our time than beg you to be responsible;

    10. Candidly, I’d put every future material violator’s name in a hat, randomly pick out a name, and publicly fire the person on the spot—to demonstrate that time sheet compliance is serious business. And incidentally, it is my understanding that the job market is not so good right now in case you did not know; and

    11. Also, please remember that I have a long and excellent memory.

    If you have any questions, think long and hard before asking them—this simply is not very complicated.

    Thx

    Steve

    P.S. This email is not being sent only in anger; it also is being sent to demonstrate my deep and personal disappointment in the irresponsible people.

    http://abovethelaw.com/2010/11/akin-gump-partner-pens-email-fantasy-about-firing-delinquent-time-keepers/

  65. Al Gore says:

    Dam, look at that pop on silver.

    Silver $28.12 $28.17 $0.96

    Trouble on the Comex?

  66. Mr Wantanapolous says:

    AG [65],

    First notice day for Dec silver is 11/30. OOPS, that’s today.

  67. Barbara says:

    Oh for God’s sake, are we are going to be hearing about the effects of that stupid tax credit a year from now? Let it go, housing prices are crashing because they are OVER PRICED.

  68. dan says:

    Nomad,

    Regarding the Wikileaks, let’s just say I’m rooting for it to be one particular company but I won’t say which :)

  69. Barbara says:

    40. JJ
    Your romantic side! The last paragraph, I was verklempt…talk amongst yourselves…

  70. Yikes says:

    BlindJust says:
    November 26, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    Call me “conservative”, but all I’m looking for, w/ my 5 member family, is a 3K sq ft, 4 br/2.5 ba on a 1+ ac plot.

    move to Bucks County. taxes lower, schools nearly as good, and you get the best of both worlds – Philly 40 mins away, NYC 90 mins away (neither at rush hour, obviously)

  71. stallan54 says:

    NYC Metro condos up nearly 2% MoM and YoY. Does this mean that real estate is local and that areas like Hudson County are recovering moreso than the average national figures? Anyone have any opinions as to what is causing this? Not sure what to think of this.

    http://www.newjerseyrealestateguys.com/business-finance/ny-metro-condos-up-2-mom/

  72. JJ says:

    Unless your kids are three different sexes why do you need four bedrooms? A nice 50 by 100 cape close to city is what you need, what you are describing is a want.

    Yikes says:
    November 30, 2010 at 12:48 pm

    BlindJust says:

    November 26, 2010 at 5:52 pm

    Call me “conservative”, but all I’m looking for, w/ my 5 member family, is a 3K sq ft, 4 br/2.5 ba on a 1+ ac plot.

    move to Bucks County. taxes lower, schools nearly as good, and you get the best of both worlds – Philly 40 mins away, NYC 90 mins away (neither at rush hour, obviously)

  73. dan says:

    71,

    Based on the link, I consider it typical real estate broker fluff. They tell you prices are up, great. Now tell me that volume is also up. Oh wait, they’re not saying that, are they? So how about this? Sales volume has fallen off a cliff and the only things that are selling are the better properties which could still be lower on a comparable basis from those from last year and last year’s below average crap sold isn’t being touched with a ten foot pole this year.

  74. Confused In NJ says:

    The Congressional Budget Office says every $1 spent on unemployment benefits generates up to $1.90 in economic growth. The program is the most effective government policy for generating growth among 11 options the CBO has analyzed.

    Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody’s Analytics, puts the bang-for-a-buck figure at $1.61, and a recent Labor Department study estimates it at $2.

    If these figures are correct Obama should give All Americans Unemployment Checks for Life. That should improve the Economy significantly.

  75. Libtard says:

    “The Congressional Budget Office says every $1 spent on unemployment benefits generates up to $1.90 in economic growth.”

    What???

    Seems like the guy who used to be in charge of calculating the pension growth expectations has been promoted to the the CBO.

  76. Juice Box says:

    re # 74 -That ranks right up there with Pelosi’s statement that unemployment saves jobs. The Democrats refused to follow the economic policy which led us out of the last two recessions, and that economic policy was TAX CUTS not more government spending. Wonder why private sector businesses are sitting on trillions in cash and aren’t hiring? It’s because of the costs and uncertainty associated w/ Obama’s social agenda.

  77. moose (62)-

    Misread it; thought Spinnner was the one reversing the house giveaway.

  78. Anon E. Moose says:

    Lamar [50];

    If you think it’s all fluff, then you should have no problem with Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory (RAND) open access to MLS data. Mentioning that to any of your guild members typically incites rage. When it becomes a real possibility it will incite fainting, not to mention fleeing to other industries.

    The absolute revolt at the concept of any ‘professional’ accountabilty for the lies told by “buyers’ ” used house salesmen (among others) to induce a commission. Marketed as professionals, but when tested they claim to be just like any joe shmoe and the buyer shouldn’t have listened to them any more htan a random man on the street; selling ‘investments of a lifetime’ but run like c0ckroaches in the light if securities regulation is mentioned.

    You can bleat all you want about “chain of title” — there is no dispute about the most important link in the chain of title that affects the deadbeat buyer’s relationship to his lender, and that’s the oversized pile of money advanced to the buyer to purchase the POS cr@pshack in the first place.

  79. relo says:

    Short memories abound. Next time you’re bored put on HGTV and watch the next generation of “Property Virgins” or “House Hunters” plunk down a cool 3.5%, which was borrowed from Mama, while admittedly having no savings to speak of. Pride of ownership, and so forth.

    http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/nov/29/collier-foreclosure-guru-tv-show-AE-glenn-vereen/

  80. dan says:

    Is Ben Bernanke also running the CBO? If only we could sell unemployment bonds. Then we could monetize them!!!!!

  81. Unexpected HEHEHE says:

    Informal Poll – Wikileaks = CIA Psy-ops? Yes or no?

    I say yes.

  82. JJ says:

    Who cares what home prices do in small amounts. Must people have a 5% mortgage and even if you don’t have a 5% mortgage very easy to get 5% or more long term almost risk free by buying a few high quality munis, treasuries, A-AAA investment grade etc.

    A $300,000 home has to rise to $15,000 in one year just to break even if you count the use of funds in equation. Even worse a home bought in Spring of 2009 needs to rise 10% a year.

  83. Anon E. Moose says:

    JJ [84];

    What about shelter value? A hypothetical $300,000 house purchased as an investment needs to rent for $2,500-$3,000 per month (problem with recent history is that the same house sold for $600,000, but I digress). What’s the profit after you pay rent? If buying the $300k house instead of renting saves you $30,000, you’re $15,000 ahead in my book.

    Before anyone jumps on me about this being an argument to buy now, that argument does not consider the ongoing house price trend and principal/capital preservation. If you pay $30,000 in rent instead of losing $30,000 in equity, renting is a wash (plus transaction and maint costs, etc.).

  84. Libtard says:

    “wait for Southern Spain Spring Special.”

    I’m holding out for the Portuguese Pampering. I love seafood.

  85. Shore Guy says:

    Now THIS is a place it makes sense spending military R&D money:

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/nov/25/pentagon-to-test-2nd-near-space-strike-craft/
    snip

    “The Falcon Hypersonic Test Vehicle is designed to skim the top of the atmosphere just below space, and is a key element of the Pentagon’s Conventional Prompt Global Strike (CPGS) capability — a program to build non-nuclear strategic weapons that can strike conventionally anywhere in the world in less than an hour.”

    snip

  86. JJ says:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-30/nfl-will-issue-ticket-refunds-in-2011-if-industry-lockout-cancels-games.html

    So will NJ realtors soon be saying with your Jets/Giants ticket refunds you can buy a house.

  87. Nicholas says:

    Shore,

    Yes, super sonic ramjet technology (scramjet) always made economic sense to me. I can see industrial applications as well as a definite military benefit of improving the ability of aircraft to produce thrust at leaner oxygen ratios.

    This would allow our planes to fly at even higher altitudes which would enable us to make a quick leap into low earth orbit by rockets. Much like Virgin airlines is already doing except your first stage jet takes you higher/faster through the use of scramjets.

    I see this as another win-win for DARPA much like velcro, tang, and the internet.

  88. Libtard says:

    Tang. I miss that stuff.

  89. Libtard says:

    “Tang. I miss that stuff.”

    I know JJ. Talk to Gator about that.

  90. 30 year realtor says:

    Moose #78 – What data can’t you get and what do you believe it will do for you?

  91. Anon E. Moose says:

    30-yr [94];

    Primarily historical listing data – price histories, ‘refreshed’ listings, i.e., the data that shows DOM is fiction at best and fraud at worst.

  92. 30 year realtor says:

    Moose, I am assuming you believe that the information you stated will help you negotiate. There is limited truth to that idea. Problem is that making the right offer to an unwilling seller will get you nowhere.

    A house with 1,000,000 days on the market at the wrong price may as well be a new listing at the moment it hits the right price. Refreshed sh*t is still shit and won’t sell. You are over valuing information when an unreasonable seller has the last word.

    When a property hits the right price it sells. This usually happens when the seller has finally been worn down enough to behave reasonably. Due to the fast movement of information via MLS, properly priced homes sell quickly. The reason why is, there are never enough properly priced listings.

  93. Simply Ravishing HEHEHE says:

    Re 87,

    You knew BAC was going to be “the big bank” Wikileaks was going to have the goods on given the fact it is blatantly insolvent. That’s why I suspect this is Psy-Ops. If it was some other institution I’d say Wikileaks was legit but this is too easy and too planned. Ask yourself why they are waiting until next year to reveal this info? Who will that harm/benefit? What kind of government reaction will it justify?

  94. Anon E. Moose says:

    Con’t [92];

    You know what other data I want? I want to see a “Multiple Buyers Service”. In this market, why the hell do I have to (or hire someone else to) chase down decrepit listings by halucinogenic sellers? I’m a serious buyer with a cash down payment and solid credit, and have the capacity to bring to the closing table more money than any of these schmucks have ever seen in one place at one time. I’m more “serious” than they ever hoped to be, and certainly more serious than they were when they bought the crap shack, or hired someone to sell it for them. They should be kissing my a$$, not the other way around.

  95. make money says:

    It seems like Spain is baked in and AA is ahead of the curve here…

    NEW YORK CITY–NOVEMBER 30, 2010– Nonstop fares to Barcelona from New York City just dropped to $260 roundtrip, including taxes. This deal, available on American Airlines, saves more than 50% on the cost of other flights on this route

    Travel is valid January – March.

  96. JJ says:

    Property Shark gives you homeowner name and home phone number, just call them up direct if you want/ Just don’t contact any realtor first.

    #
    #
    Anon E. Moose says:
    November 30, 2010 at 4:27 pm

    Con’t [92];

    You know what other data I want? I want to see a “Multiple Buyers Service”. In this market, why the hell do I have to (or hire someone else to) chase down decrepit listings by halucinogenic sellers? I’m a serious buyer with a cash down payment and solid credit, and have the capacity to bring to the closing table more money than any of these schmucks have ever seen in one place at one time. I’m more “serious” than they ever hoped to be, and certainly more serious than they were when they bought the crap shack, or hired someone to sell it for them. They should be kissing my a$$, not the other way around.

  97. Anon E. Moose says:

    30-yr [94];

    People protect what they value. The used house sales guild wouldn’t restrict access to the data if they didn’t think it was valuable.

    I don’t want to be the offer that the buyer regrets not taking after they later lower the ask below it. Knowing that the buyer raised their price by cancelling and re-listing sets an absolute cap on where the bid should be, and the amount of the increase hints where the previous offers were coming in.

    And I agree about wearing the seller down. I think the hype over “new to market” is a guaranteed path to overpay. Selling a listing quickly benefits noone but the salesman.

  98. 30 year realtor says:

    Moose, you just don’t get it! Qualified is qualified. Your money is the same color green as any other qualified buyer and you are not the only qualified buyer.

    I am going to take the huge leap of assuming you are not a warm, fuzzy, emotional kinda guy. Buying a home is an emotional transaction. Money is a major consideration, but when looking at homes in a homogeneous price range, emotion is the deciding factor. Sellers are also subject to emotion as well.

    Comes a time where the market makes sense, your life situation calls for a house and you take an educated plunge. It ain’t f*cking rocket science!

  99. NJSerf says:

    N.J. approves Camden plan to lay off 180 cops

    http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20101130_N_J__approves_Camden_plan_to_lay_off_180_cops.html

    Won’t be long before we’re #1 again!!

    When do we break ground on the fence around Camden?

  100. 30 year realtor says:

    Moose, When corporations do it it is called marketing! Why shouldn’t sellers and the agents who represent them be allowed to use the same smoke and mirrors BS marketing that corporations use? Do corporations selling widgets have the exclusive right to bending the truth in marketing?

    You don’t strike me as the consumer advocate type. Guess buying a house is expensive enough to get you to advocate for yourself. It would work better for you if you could remain objective!

  101. JJ says:

    Corporations who sell products can sell directly to customers. Realtors are not selling a product. It is a cog between buyer and seller charging a fee. I would not like if every time I went shopping I had to deal with a middle man charging me 6%. And don’t say seller pays as they just tack it on. Only one single house in last two years I bid on I was within 70K of what seller needed. Realtor said well maybe I could go up 35k and seller could go down 35k. I said honestly seller only wants the 70K to cover your commission. I did not hire you so why should I pay you 35k to make a few phone calls I would rather do myself.

    30 year realtor says:
    November 30, 2010 at 4:52 pm

    Moose, When corporations do it it is called marketing! Why shouldn’t sellers and the agents who represent them be allowed to use the same smoke and mirrors BS marketing that corporations use? Do corporations selling widgets have the exclusive right to bending the truth in marketing?

    You don’t strike me as the consumer advocate type. Guess buying a house is expensive enough to get you to advocate for yourself. It would work better for you if you could remain objective!

  102. grim says:

    People protect what they value. The used house sales guild wouldn’t restrict access to the data if they didn’t think it was valuable.

    It’s not the data, it’s the contracts.

    As the listing broker, I have a contract with a buyer to sell their home. As a listing broker who is a member of the MLS, I have a participation agreement/contract with the MLS, which requires me to list my properties. As a buyer’s broker, I have a participation agreement/contract with the MLS that ensures payment for securing a buyer. And, in some cases, as a buyer’s brokerI might have a representation contract with a buyer.

    It is this chain of contracts that is the key, not the data. Without this chain of contracts, there would be no data. Ultimately, the web of contracts basically says, if you are a member of the MLS, you are obligated to list your properties, as a member you are also allowed to show/sell any listed property, and are guaranteed payment as part of the set of broker participation contracts for securing a buyer. Lastly, as a listing broker, you are making that property available to a set of salespeople much larger than your own organization.

    Ask me how I know, I spent 2 years trying to start an alternate statewide MLS, as well as an online brokerage based on the transaction broker model (no representation, the broker only acts to facilitate the transaction/intermediate). At no time did I not have access to all the statewide MLS data. What I did not have was this web of contracts that makes the whole shebang work.

    You want to know who probably has the best chance of putting together a viable transaction brokerage business to move real estate?

    Ebay

    And yes, I am serious.

  103. moose (78)-

    I- and virtually all good Realtors- have been for open access to MLS data for years. With IDX virtually the norm, the public has every opportunity to access the same information we use. Perhaps your problem is the inability to discriminate between knowledge and information. When the market is more to your liking, perhaps you should find a FSBO who is as mentally superior as you, and you two can have a lovefest of Realtor-hate while completing your “everybody wins” Realtor-less transaction.

    There are bad practitioners in every business. Again- along with other good Realtors- I’ve advocated for more stringent licensing requirements and stronger “safe harbor” statement guidelines. Frankly, I believe the only solution to raising the bar of performance is to move to single licensing (eliminating the salesperson license and only training and licensing to the higher broker license level). However, this is New Jersey, and the real estate lobby (read: Jim Weichert and Realogy) will never stand for it, as they would lose virtually their entire free labor force were such a law to pass.

    Just as you selectively scrape the bottom of the barrel for evidence of some proof that Realtors are an evil cabal, you cherry pick your facts in the fraudclosure mess. Last time I checked, defaulting on a mortgage is not a crime. It is a breach of contract, with the penalties for such breach having been written into the agreement from the beginning. It’s regrettable behavior…shameful…perhaps dishonest…but it’s not a crime.

    Forgery, perjury and bank fraud are crimes. Doing those things in pursuit of some kind of ersatz, back-dated “perfection” of a mess of lost, destroyed or never-executed paperwork is equally a crime.

  104. JJ says:

    Since we are talking commissions, since Property Shark gives me owners contact info. Of course I can contact them directly and attempt to buy home, but can they sell me the home without paying a commission? What if I went to an open house, did not sign in and then tried to buy house by contacting owner directly? What if I just put a lower offer in direct to owner and said contact me when listing expires?

    The house I lost cause of realtor commission got in way I know where owner works, his email address, home address and home number. I bet if I called him at work and spoke man to man we could work a deal out. The realtor is in the way and collecting commission.

    In my current house I spoke to owner directly even though he had a realtor, I don’t like realtors as they are trained negoiaters and want a higher price as it is a higher commission. I like to work with owner. How else do you think I got all his lawn furntiture, garden tools, pool equipment etc. I would have got his 23 year old daughter is realtor did not butt in.

  105. Bubble Disciple says:

    “The economy continues to weigh on the housing market”

    This should be rephrased:
    “The housing market continues to weigh on the economy”

  106. grim says:

    Of course I can contact them directly and attempt to buy home, but can they sell me the home without paying a commission?

    If their listing agreement says they can sell the property on their own and not owe the broker a commission, then the answer is yes. (Typically called an exclusive agency listing).

    The issue here is that there is little motivation by the broker to invest significant time, effort, and especially money since the broker would not not be compensated for their costs in the scenario you describe.

  107. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [2] grim

    Sooooooo glad I don’t work in Newark anymore.

    And from the Payback’s a Bitch Department, while I cannot give up any details, today I was able to embarrass an attorney from my former firm, who holds himself out as an expert in a certain area of law. I had a lot of fun going into detail on the many reasons why the attorney was wrong.

    Good times.

  108. dan says:

    Stu and Gator,

    What do you think of the townhouses in Glen Ridge at 100 Glen Ridge Ave? Too small for the Gator household I would think but we don’t have kids yet. Thoughts? There’s 2 available there.

  109. Anon E. Moose says:

    30-ry [100];

    No shortage of qualified buyers, huh? Is that why the NAR gang is cyring about tough lending standards and tough appraisal standards? All those sellers out there will be thrilled to hear that there is no shortage of qualified buyers, and that the housing bust is over. Thanks for clearing that up. Double digit annual compunded increases to the moon!

    I hate to make this all about me, but it would have “made sense” for me to buy in 2005. I thought better of it. I seriously dowbt someone who bought with all the best intentions in 2005-6 is happy with their purchase right now, even if they are suffering through their circumstances. So please don’t tell me that “just take the plunge” is a good life strategy.

    In retrospect, living in the new era where no one is accountable for anything, I could have bought in 2005, not bothered to pay my mortgae, and I would have had all three branches of governemnt falling all over themselves to shield me from the consequences – the Sheriffs who won’t enforce foreclosure evictions (Chicago); the judges giving away free houses (Long Island) and legislators passing baliout after bailout of renters’ tax money to bribe the banks into looking the other way on all those missed mortgage payments (TARP, HARP, HAMP, CRAMP, TRAMP, etc….). In all likelihood, I’d still be living in a house I grossly overbid for but never really paid much (if anything) for.

    And no, I’m not warm, fuzzy, or emotional – no house is SPECIAL (except in the short-bus sense), and anyone who argues to the contrary is invariably trying to part me with too much of my money.

    I am very objective. Under objective circumstances, the deadbeat ‘seller’ can accept my reality-based price, or lose the house to the bank. Or having already lost the house, the bank can accept the reality-based price, or face default on its cash obligations.

    Enter “PRODUCE THE NOTE M’FER” and equivalent intellectual levels of argumentation on behalf of deadbeats, and banks that are motivated to please the source of their bailout funds instead of recover capital from the collateral (because after all, the government’s money is as green as the level-headed buyers’ is). These interrupt and interfere with the ordianry and normal operation of market-clearing activities. So the seller really has no fear of losing the house, and the bank has no fear it will be dissolved if it doesn’t recover the house. The deadbeats keep on living is houses the don’t and can’t pay for, sellers keep pricing at fantasy levels that the banks coincidentally have marked on their books.

    Truth in marketing? You don’t have to say anything. If you lie, you should be held accountable for it. I was recently at an auto repo auction. The only thing said about the vehicle was the year, make and model. Beyond that, condition is strictly AS-IS, with no representations or warranties. You know what else was said about each car? “Starting bid is…” Not “Well, its sold AS-IS, and don’t hold me to this but it has a new radiator that will last you as long as you plan to drive it, and its a real cream puff and we just charged the AC system…”

    In stark contrast when I look at a house I get nothing but glowing and completely unaccountable renditions of the great area and wonderful neighbors and fantastic schools and meticulous maintenance, ad nauseum. Some of it is partyly true, some of it is true right now but likely to change in 15 minutes, and most of it is just complete unadulterated BS. So if you’re going to lie, you get called for lying. If you don’t want to be held accountable for lying, then tell the truth or STFU. Since used house salesmen can’t seem to open their mouths without lying, then they would be well advised to keep their traps shut. If they want some crediblity, they they should accept some consequences, police their own. Beyond that, one acquires a reputation for telling the truth by actually, you know, telling the truth.

  110. grim says:

    JJ,

    In no circumstance is a listing agreement with a broker a necessary condition for you making an offer or buying a property.

    Like the house up the block, knock on the door and let the owner know you’d like to buy it.

    That’s the way my parents bought and sold homes. Mr. Smith across the street tells Ma’ he is thinking about moving to Florida, she tells him she’d like to buy his house, they agree on a price, done deal. Ma was renting out a two family, the tenants said they’d like to buy it, agree on a price, done deal.

    A good friend of the family passed an old home in Wyckoff he loved every day, on his way home from work one day he saw the owner out front, so he stopped, walked up, introduced himself, made his intentions clear, he bought the house a few weeks later.

    The elderly couple next door to my sister knows I’d like to purchase their home. Who do you think will be getting a call when they want to sell?

    There doesn’t need to be a website, mls, or anything to buy or sell real estate. These are not necessary pre-conditions.

  111. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [101] njserf

    will the bike trail be inside or outside of the ring fence? Or perhaps between two ring fences, each topped with razor wire?

  112. grim says:

    I am going to take the huge leap of assuming you are not a warm, fuzzy, emotional kinda guy. Buying a home is an emotional transaction. Money is a major consideration, but when looking at homes in a homogeneous price range, emotion is the deciding factor. Sellers are also subject to emotion as well.

    I’m calling crap. This, sir, is bullshit.

    I’m not arguing that there is not an emotional consideration, but why does that mean a Realtor should get a commission? Or that not all data should be public?

  113. Nicholas says:

    Grim,

    I don’t mean to pry but why didn’t your MLS replacement work? Why were you not able to bring forth the creation of a similar site to facilitate the sale/trade of housing units?

    There are plenty of sites that list “FSBO(dot)com” or “ApartmentSearch(dot)com” do a pretty poor job of aggregating data. There are sites such as craigslist where you can search homes and rentals but there are ALOT of scams running on that site which make it un-attractive. On craigslist I would say that every third entry is a scam in the RE section. On the sites that you can search it may show you the home but leave out the address so that finding it is next to impossible. Zillow, Trulia, are to name a few.

    Honestly, I’m frustrated searching any of these sites as they produce little good results and often I spend more time dealing with scam artists than I would like.

  114. grim (108)-

    None of this stuff is a problem to people who think that agreements and contracts apply to everyone except themselves. If a person believes that an agent who has a valid contract to perform real estate activities on the behalf of a seller has no real right to be compensated, everything becomes fair game.

    Were these same people (say, your average Wall St BSDs and lickspittle, lackey attorneys) to be put in the same position as the Realtor, the amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth would be supersonic in volume.

  115. I see the jackals now have Portugal in their sights.

    Gonna be a long, cold winter.

  116. grim says:

    Ok, even if we cut real estate agents out of the mix, we’re only removed 1 of about dozen hungry mouths.

    Title insurer – Largely a scam, and why does the buyer need to pay to insure the lender?
    Home Inspector – Scam, unqualified lackey who is going to miss anything of any importance
    Mortgage Lender – You guys ever see what a broker makes on commission? He’ll usually get paid more than the agents.
    Surveyor – Pony up about 1200 bucks for these guys to spend the afternoon playing around in your back yard with yellow telescopes
    Lawyers – Biggest scam jobs, they’ll inevitably find 25 issues that are going to cost you $300 an hour to ensure are managed correctly
    Town Inspector – Don’t forget about paying your vig to the town inspector for making sure there is a smoke detector in the kitchen (but completely misses the fact that 1000 square feet were added on without a permit)
    Appraisal – What, you thought the mortgage broker was going to pay for it? Again another lackey who comes out to tell you what you already knew.
    Title search – Didn’t I already pay someone 1200 bucks for title something?
    Notary fees, doc prep fees – You thought that $300 an hour included photocopies? Hah!

  117. Anon E. Moose says:

    Lamar [116];

    I sleep quite well at night knowing that the work I do creates something of value that would not exist but for my efforts. No used house salesman can honestly say the same. A go-between skimming off the margin, no different than the opportunistic Wall St. traders you have such contempt for (see [117]).

    I also get paid by the people for whom I do work. I don’t hide my slice with “you don’t pay me, the seller does”, or apologize for overcharging on a rare few transactions consumated as payback for all the work I did for nothing on behalf of others. The work I do is valuable, and I charge for it accordingly, to each and every person who benefits by it.

  118. Nicholas says:

    “Comes a time where the market makes sense, your life situation calls for a house and you take an educated plunge. It ain’t f*cking rocket science!”

    Well, I would have to say, there hasn’t yet been a time in my life that has called for a house that couldn’t be satisfied by another suitable replacement, renting. Yes, buying a house is an emotional event. Right now I get all worked up thinking about how much money I’m going to be losing per year if I buy right now.

    Given that I would have bought a sizeable home last year, I put that value at about 27,000$. I would have lost 27,000$ if I would have bought a house. How is that for emotion? I get emails from RE agents saying “Its a good time to buy!”, “Rates have never been lower!” I wish I could punch them in the face through the internet.

    It sickens me.

  119. Shore Guy says:

    Enough already! Yes there are terrorists Yes, they want to kill us. Yes, they will kill us from time to time. But, really! Are we better off turning every traveler into a prime suspect when Israel, which poses a greater, and more existential, terrorist threat is able to combat terrorists without grabbing the vulva of women who are wearing sanitary products when traveling?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333432/Humiliated-Female-passenger-subjected-patdown-sanitary-towel-showed-body-scanner.html

  120. Essex says:

    renting is a waste of money.

  121. Shore Guy says:

    Oh, joy. Get a load of this:

    Doctors are also now questioning the hygiene of TSA agents who conduct hundreds of patdowns daily.
    Although they wear gloves, it is being reported that viruses like syphilis, lice, gonorrhea, chlamydia, strep and papilloma viruses can be transferred from passenger to passenger during the body searches.
    Alarmed travellers have noted that the TSA agents do not change gloves in between patdowns and were actually patting down dozens of passengers or more wearing the same gloves.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333432/Humiliated-Female-passenger-subjected-patdown-sanitary-towel-showed-body-scanner.html#ixzz16oJqYuCi

  122. Shore Guy says:

    “renting is a waste of money.”

    So is buying. So is eating out at a GREAT restaurant. So is going to concerts, buying other than servicable clothes, etc.

    Many, many things make no economic sense and we do them for psychological reasons; the same reason we keep worthless things from childhood, or a long-dead pet, etc. — they make us feel better.

  123. Shore Guy says:

    “syphilis, lice, gonorrhea, chlamydia, strep and papilloma viruses ”

    Who said a little extra security never hurt anyone who didn’t have something to hide?

  124. Anon E. Moose says:

    Grim [118];

    Title insurer – Largely a scam, and why does the buyer need to pay to insure the lender?
    Not required if paying cash. Buyer wants to borrow money, they have to play by their rules. “The borrower is slave to the lender.” Proverbs 22:7

    Home Inspector – Scam, unqualified lackey who is going to miss anything of any importance
    Matter of quality, not kind. To hear some tell it, the qualified ones were driven out of the business by used house salesmen who only hired people who wouldn’t find anything that might spike the deal, and blackballed all others.

    Mortgage Lender – You guys ever see what a broker makes on commission? He’ll usually get paid more than the agents.
    Again, only relevant because cr@pshacks are so grossly overpriced as to require and support an army of lenders to finance their purchase. No lender, no mortgage. No moertgage, no mortgage broker.

    Surveyor – Pony up about 1200 bucks for these guys to spend the afternoon playing around in your back yard with yellow telescopes
    Don’t those guys have a guild of their own? Isn’t that another one of those lender requirements? Who really trusts the seller’s decsription of the property. “Trust, but verify.” – R. Reagan

    Lawyers – Biggest scam jobs, they’ll inevitably find 25 issues that are going to cost you $300 an hour to ensure are managed correctly
    Case-in-point: Acquaintance bought a dormered cape – turn out the dormer modification wasn’t permitted. That wasn’t the lawyer’s fault, it was the seller’s. The lawyer flagged it (no C of O for the modification), and everyone else who was only getting paid at the closing table couldn’t give two sh!ts whether they knew about it or not. Sounds like money well spent to me to avoid buying a problem.

    Town Inspector – Don’t forget about paying your vig to the town inspector for making sure there is a smoke detector in the kitchen (but completely misses the fact that 1000 square feet were added on without a permit)
    You want to argue against property taxes, too?

    Appraisal – What, you thought the mortgage broker was going to pay for it? Again another lackey who comes out to tell you what you already knew.
    Condition of mortgage, si? No mortgage, no problem. No price shakedown, no mortgage required. QED. See also above about Realtors driving out anyone who wasn’t willing to be a rubber stamp (“Hit the number”).

    Title search – Didn’t I already pay someone 1200 bucks for title something?
    Lender requried. See above.

    Notary fees, doc prep fees – You thought that $300 an hour included photocopies? Hah!
    Only gets put on if the buyer isn’t paying attention. I didn’t pay the $150 dealer’s DMV fee (over and above registratrion and plates) when I bought my last car, either.

    Also, to the extent that these fees got out of control, it did because the costs was separated from teh perons paying the bill. “Seller pays closing costs”, meaning it is buried into the sale price, insulated the buyer from knowing or caring what each party assisting in the transaction was getting paid.

    Grim, some of this may be a little harsh. But also consider the scope, not just the number. Are any of the closing costs (save perhaps the mortgage broker) anywhere near 5% of the sale price?

  125. Libtard says:

    Dan (110):

    Good area for low rent. Also good area for crack purchase. If ever there was a bad area in Glen Ridge, you found the epicenter. Of course, there’s always a dice game going right up the block at the liquor store across from the station.

  126. Libtard says:

    JJ/Grim:

    Purchased Montclair multi in private sale. Avoided many of those crazy fees. Couldn’t get away from the title search, but paid no lawyer fees.

  127. yo'me says:

    “Title insurer – Largely a scam, and why does the buyer need to pay to insure the lender?
    Not required if paying cash. Buyer wants to borrow money, they have to play by their rules. “The borrower is slave to the lender.” Proverbs 22:7”

    Moose

    I paid cash on my second home.The developer did not pay the insulation company.Company put a lien on my house.I gave the bill to the developer and he paid it before he went bankrupt.Same happened to people I know but the developer was out of bussiness already.The title insurance had to deal with it.

    You can drive a car without insurance as long as you don’t get into an accident.

  128. Mr Wantanapolous says:

    “renting is a waste of money.”

    Essex,

    Asinine statement. The best move I made was unloading the asset in 2005 and renting from that point. You can rent from a landlord, 4 walls/roof, or rent your mortgage from a bank. Take a look at an amortization schedule; now pat yourself on the back, you are paying off a loan on the banks terms.

    In addition to this, you are immobile, homeowner, during the worst job market we have ever experienced. Many love the freedom to pick up and leave in a moment’s notice. Let’s not even discuss opportunity cost; a depreciating asset encumbered with high/going higher taxes versus 5 years of Bergabe gains.

  129. grim says:

    Guitars are a waste of money

  130. grim says:

    Purchased Montclair multi in private sale. Avoided many of those crazy fees. Couldn’t get away from the title search, but paid no lawyer fees.

    I’ve dealt with parties from each group that returned greater value to a transaction than their cost … which is what this is all about.

    Everyone tells me that travel agency is dead, but I’m still on a first name basis with my travel agent. Not only does she match any online price that I ever found, she knows my tastes and has never sent me to a place that I didn’t absolutely love.

  131. Ben says:

    Real estate agents are simply trolls that live underneath a bridge collecting a fee. In this day and age, they are next to worthless. Most of them don’t even have a clue about what they are talking about.

    We were in a house last month. It had a Radon system installed. My wife asked the realtor about it. The realtor replied, “well, I’m sure it doesn’t matter because no houses around here have had Radon levels above the legal threshold”. My wife looked at her and said “well, obviously, this house did. That’s why it was installed in 2002 when the house was last sold”.

    The next thing we did was inspect the counter tops. I swear, they were installed by a 5 year old. The screws sticking out of the bottom. Nothing was aligned properly. At one spot, they jammed in a piece of thin plywood into the bracket under the countertop to make it seem like it wasn’t misaligned.

    I asked “did the owner install these counter tops herself?”.
    She says, “no she had a professional do it”.
    Then, I go and show her all the shoddy craftsmanship. I swear, I put more care into my wood shop projects in 6th grade than this person did.

    On to the basement, there are wires crossed all over the place and duct taped to the pipes. The hot water heater has insulation around it which is also fastened with duct tape. He has a lamp with an extension cord running to it which is duct tape to the pole. Cable wires are randomly coming out of the side wall corners throughout the whole house. Nothing worse than a “do it your selfer” armed with a drill and duct tape.

    I pointed out no less than 20 flaws I saw throughout the house. The next day, the realtor contacts our agent and says we seemed “very interested” in the house.

  132. Libtard says:

    Too many generalizations here. There are many excellent realtors as there are many imbeciles. It’s easy to spot the imbeciles. The experts appear to be the ones still employed in the industry who worked it during the bubble. Just my two cents. Considering how few people even know how property taxes work, you can’t expect the average Joe to understand the transfer of real estate process.

  133. Essex says:

    Guitars can appreciate mightily. And they are fun. even if you break even on one and enjoy the heck out it, you win. Homes are about the same way.

  134. grim says:

    We were in a house last month. It had a Radon system installed. My wife asked the realtor about it. The realtor replied, “well, I’m sure it doesn’t matter because no houses around here have had Radon levels above the legal threshold”. My wife looked at her and said “well, obviously, this house did. That’s why it was installed in 2002 when the house was last sold”.

    I’m always more worried about the house next door, that doesn’t have one.

  135. grim says:

    Guitars can appreciate mightily.

    My brother tells me the guitar bubble is poised to burst.

  136. Yikes says:

    Lamar Asperger says:
    November 29, 2010 at 8:39 am

    Everyone here ready to have their 401k’s and IRAs seized?

    Just checking.

    not without a fight

  137. Yikes says:

    Juice Box says:
    November 29, 2010 at 4:51 pm

    Which is worse finding out your home purchase has mold or meth?

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/11/29/couple.buys.meth.house/index.html?hpt=C2

    Whoops!

  138. 30 year realtor says:

    Grim #114 – Why do you believe any of that comment was related to a broker bringing value to a transaction in any way, shape or form? It was related to breaking his balls!

  139. Mr Wantanapolous says:

    Yikes [138],

    We’ll hear that the US is different, it can’t happen here. Get ready, it’s coming to a town near you.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-25/hungary-follows-argentina-in-pension-fund-ultimatum-nightmare-for-some.html

  140. Essex says:

    137. Definitely. I sold a couple at a prices in the last couple of years that I would not be able to buy back today. Just would not make any sense. But, some hold their value. I was also perusing road bikes and am somewhat surprised at their current prices. Some products might just appeal to those with a little cash on hand. Like dentists.

  141. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    BC,

    What do you suggest doing? Not put $ into a 401-k? I mean that seriously.

  142. Dan says:

    Thanks Stu,

    We were thinking the same thing when the same guy was hanging outside the liquor store as we passed him three times in an hour.

    Wasn’t too sure about the apartments next door to them either.

  143. AG says:

    143.

    I would try to get out of it completely via rolling into an _RA.

  144. Dan says:

    123. I can only imagine if EMT’s ever tried to pull that off using the same gloves on two patients, they’d get crucified and sued.

  145. Confused In NJ says:

    141.Mr Wantanapolous says:
    November 30, 2010 at 8:46 pm
    Yikes [138],

    We’ll hear that the US is different, it can’t happen here. Get ready, it’s coming to a town near you.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-25/hungary-follows-argentina-in-pension-fund-ultimatum-nightmare-for-some.html

    This is like when Bush wanted a portion of Social Security invested in Private Market Accounts.

  146. Confused In NJ says:

    I saw 401K’s as a prelude to taxing then eliminating Social Security. I can see them establishing a balance check where if your 401K is above a certain metric, you loose 100% of Social Security, similar to years ago when your Defined Pension Formula subtracted Social Security before determining your annual annuity. Thankfully, Congress would be exempt from these changes as would Police, Fire Persons & Teachers.

  147. Confused In NJ says:

    It will be interesting to see the Cost of Mandatory (Obama) Medical Insurance become fully Taxable as Income for anyone that’s not a Congressman, Policeman, Fireman or Teacher. It would only apply to the Serfs.

  148. chicagofinance says:

    The end is nigh…………
    OTB says it will shut down Friday
    Last Updated: 7:25 PM, November 30, 2010

    Posted: 7:24 PM, November 30, 2010

    A day after New York’s Senate failed to act on a rescue plan, New York City Off-Track Betting Corp. announced it will close its offices “permanently” at the close of business Friday.

    The public benefit corporation created to handle horse racing bets away from tracks says it will lay off about 1,300 employees and close its many betting parlors and teletheaters. Closing OTB and eliminating the revenue from bets that goes to New York’s racing industry could threaten many more jobs, according to OTB.

    Gov. David Paterson has proposed a broad reorganization of the sprawling gambling operation to modernize and streamline its services. Although the Assembly approved Paterson’s plan Tuesday, the Senate has decided it needed more time to consider the complex proposal.

    The Senate’s Democratic majority adjourned Monday’s special session and didn’t return Tuesday, as the Assembly did.

    Now, OTB is giving official notice to the unions representing its workers that it indends to shut down.

    “This action is necessary because (OTB) will have exhausted all unrestricted funds available to continue its operations beyond that date unless circumstances materially change,” OTB officials wrote its unions. New York City OTB “plans to permanently shut down all of its work sites, which will result in the layoff of all (OTB) employees represented by your union and these layoffs will be permanent.”

    “With thousands of jobs and millions of taxpayer dollars at stake, a potential bailout cannot be rushed,” said Austin Shafran, spokesman for the Senate’s Democratic majority. “If the Senate is going to act and protect the best interests of taxpayers and workers, there must be a thorough and deliberative process for public review and input. We stand ready to be a partner in that process,” Shafran said.

    The Senate has no scheduled return to Albany.

    “Without the passage of the bill we run out of cash very quickly and we will have no alternative but to cease all operations,” said Greg Rayburn, CEO of New York City OTB, in a memo to workers.

    Rayburn said he still hopes the Senate will pass the measure, “but at the same time we have to plan for the worst.”

    The state-owned New York City OTB has long handled as much as $1 billion a year in horse racing bets. Yet it’s been kept in fiscal crisis by competition from casinos and other gambling operations, OTB’s payouts to governments and the horse racing industry, and concern over its management criticized in state audits.

  149. Shore Guy says:

    “My brother tells me the guitar bubble is poised to burst.”

    This would not surprise me. Blues depends on guitars, and good rock and roll is, as a child of the Blues, also depends on guitars. But, as music has moved to electronic and beat-driven cr@p, which can be produced at a computer with a MIDI controller and sampled sounds, the NEED for quality guitars haas diminished. The rise in vintage guitars was a function of a quest for old-growth wood combined with low-output production, which produced superior tone and gave greater sustain, a good thing for Blues and Blues-based music.

    This is a shrinking market segment and much of the demographic that is/was attracted to this music is aging-out, or dying out, of platpying, or is just downsizing — at 65 how many guitars does a non-professional player need. And, with a movement away from the music that benefited from vintage guitars, these instruments just become less desired.

    I for one have no interest in Chinese-made pseudo Strats, etc., but they are cheap, and they do what most people need, and, heck, even Jimmy Page played a little Dan Electro on stage at times. If something is good enough, especially in an age where quality is not as appreciated as image, people seem ready to flock to it.

    Maybe I will finally be able to get my hands on a reasonably-priced 61 SG after all.

  150. Shore Guy says:

    OTB = On The Brink?

  151. onthebrink says:

    Not me sir! I swear!

Comments are closed.