NJ voters reject cap busting tax increases

From the Star Ledger:

All but two N.J. towns vote to reject raising property taxes over Gov. Christie’s 2 percent cap

Voters rejected property-tax increases in 12 municipalities today, while two towns approved special ballots to exceed the new 2 percent municipal property-tax cap.

Today was the first time in New Jersey that localities asked voters for permission to raise taxes, a provision of the Christie administration’s 2 percent cap on property tax collections. Previously, towns appealed to the state if they wanted to exceed a 4 percent cap.

The day marked the culmination of months of anticipation by municipal experts and governing bodies. Officials in the 14 towns holding property-tax votes held public meetings and circulated letters telling residents what was at stake — in most cases jobs and services.

This entry was posted in New Jersey Real Estate, Property Taxes. Bookmark the permalink.

166 Responses to NJ voters reject cap busting tax increases

  1. grim says:

    T-1 day to closing…

    …is grim crazy?

  2. grim says:

    From the Star Ledger:

    Voters across N.J. approve school budgets in greater numbers than last year

    One year after New Jerseyans rejected school budgets in record numbers, leading to major cuts in classrooms across the state, voters appeared to deliver better news to their local districts today, approving a majority of the spending packages put before them.

    Voter turnout was light for the rare Wednesday election, but it was enough to pass 301 of 373 budgets for which results were available as of 12:33 a.m. In all, 538 budgets went before voters.

    Based on early returns, budgets were approved overwhelmingly in districts throughout Essex, Union and Morris counties. In Somerset County, voters approved at least 13 of 17 budgets today, according to early returns. Last year, 15 of 17 budgets were rejected.

  3. grim says:

    From the Star Ledger:

    N.J. residents like their hometowns more than the state, Monmouth University poll finds

    New Jerseyans like their hometowns. But their state? Not so much.

    A new look at the Garden State’s quality of life by the Monmouth University Poll found far fewer people had a positive opinion of the state than they did of the cities and towns they call home. Asked what they disliked most about the state, nearly half complained about taxes.

    Overall, 73 percent had a positive opinion of their home towns. But significantly fewer, 63 percent, thought the state was a good place to live. While still a majority, it was the lowest positive reading in 30 years of polling on the question and the first time residents gave the state lower grades than the towns in which they reside.

    The state received its highest marks from residents back in 1987, when Tom Kean was governor and more than 80 percent felt New Jersey was a good or excellent place to live.

    “It really means that confidence in government is just about swamping everything that is good in the state,” he said, a trend that could give residents little incentive to stay in New Jersey over the long-term.

    Indeed, a majority — more than 50 percent — said they found themselves wishing they could live elsewhere.

  4. 1987 Condo Buyer says:

    We bought in our town in 1993 and taxes were $3,300. 18 years later, I have added a Family room,, a MBR and a deck, effectively doubling (to 2,000 sq feet) the size of the original ranch. Even with our Yes vote yesterday my taxes are $7,900, not great but not as crazy as my neigboring towns of Montclair, West Orange, etc.

  5. Thanks so much for one more excellent post.

  6. Still_Renting says:

    Grim (1)
    Ask that same question again next year, we will answer you then.

  7. Confused In NJ says:

    Couldn’t get my four next door neighbors to bother voting, so the school cap addendum passed by three votes.

  8. yo'me says:

    Edison passed a 5.5% tax increase on the School budget.No word yet on the Municipal increase

    Edison Municipal taxes will go up 3.66%.
    The tax rate jumps 4 cents, from $1.09 to $1.13 — meaning a home accessed at the township average of about $176,000 would pay about $70 more this year.

    Where is the CAP?

  9. Lone Ranger says:

    “Where is the CAP?”

    Yome,

    Always remember, ceilings get raised while floors are lowered.

  10. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Where’s the house Grim. Where’s the pics?

  11. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Bridge for Sale — Cheap!
    Economist Karl Case:

    ‘In a sense, We’ve already had a double-dip [in housing].’

    ‘We’ve always been able to count on new households coming into the market; they’re not coming.’

    ‘There’s going to be a lot of dislocation when Fannie and Freddie evolve into something new.’

    ‘Housing starts are at sixty-year lows, and they’ve been there for 33 months.’

    If you (still) believe that residential property prices are poised to recover — or even that they are near a bottom — after listening to this Bloomberg interview with economists Karl Case and Robert Shiller, two experts who actually know what they are talking about, I have a bridge house (or two, or three, or…) to sell you.

    http://www.financialarmageddon.com/2011/04/bridge-for-sale-cheap.html

  12. Will the name of this blog change to NJ Bagholder Report tomorrow? ;)

  13. Thundaar says:

    11-Freedy
    I attended the Bisnow event yesterday in Hoboken…one of the panelists-Steve Pozsycki from SJP Properties was gushing over Panasonics move into Newark……

  14. freedy says:

    one of the questions. will pan ever take the space. or just have a few their and
    lease out the rest.

  15. Lone Ranger says:

    Hobo [16],

    Those holding USD or RE?

    By the way, my brother in law just got back from Switzerland. A commom theme, restaurants/shops with signs in the window; “We do not accept US Dollars”.

  16. Kettle1^2 says:

    Watch out for the age discrimination. I have recently heard 2 different hiring managers comment that they discard any resume that indicates someone is over 40.

  17. 3b says:

    River Edge School Budget defeated.
    River Dell Budget passed.

    The funding change question was defeated, although Oradell voted overwhelmingly in favor ; now it goes to the courts.

  18. thundaar (17)-

    Steve Pozycki is a tool.

  19. Kettle1^2 says:

    Ranger,

    Perhaps housing is safer then dollars right now.

  20. Lone (20)-

    Too bad we can’t get a read on currencies and PMs by watching rap videos anymore. A few of those cretins have more gold/silver in their mouths and on their bodies than the Crimex has available for delivery.

  21. Lone Ranger says:

    Kettle [24],

    I agree.

  22. Ron Paul laying a bat upside the Bernank’s head on CNBC.

  23. Now calling Bernank a liar.

  24. grim says:

    16 – Ultimately, were are all going to be left holding the bag anyway.

  25. grim says:

    Jobless claims ugly. I blame the rain.

  26. Lone Ranger says:

    Hobo [29],

    And they called me a loonie for touting CAD 3 years ago.

  27. Lone Ranger says:

    QE3, 4, 5, 6,………….

  28. Lone Ranger says:

    I had one post on that commie site in Hoboken. I told them to get out of their crap boxes and buy loonies. They deleted my post.

    http://www.advfn.com/p.php?pid=qkchart&symbol=FX%5EUSDCAD

  29. ditto says:

    Grim – are you bothering with Owner’s title insurance? I’m about 90% on not doing it. The seller’s been in the place 30 yeras. Any minor issues afterwards I’ll pay the attorneyfees if I need to. I’ve been doing some searching and its hard to get definitive figures but the title loss scenario in such situations is virtually nil.
    Stuill with so many people making a cut on me buying it I gotta lot of people urging me to pay. Plus its insurance for some search already done. Ridiculous.

  30. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Fabius, cooler,

    I had no illusions that the budget would fail. Mine was a message vote.

  31. ditto says:

    that should said “total loss”, but its the same thing actually..

  32. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Argh, I got droided. S/b cobbler.

  33. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Grim is a smart man. He took one look at these projections from the FED and saw how great the economy was going to be in 2013 that he pulled the trigger:

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/files/fomcprojtabl20110427.pdf

    6% unemployment, low inflation.

  34. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Grim 31 You forgot “unexpectedly”!
    GDP Q1 advanced 1.8, all is well.

  35. 3b says:

    #31 No, Easter was late this year .

  36. cobbler says:

    nom [37]
    The problem with cutting the school budgets when/if the referendum fails is that it is done by the same bunch of people that put the original budget in place. All things equal, varsity tennis is much likelier to be cut than an assistant superintendant position see his/her pay reduced by 10%.

  37. JJ says:

    They sell title insurance on-line. The internet based companies charge a lot less. People who buy homes with cash shop around for cheapest title insurance.

    ditto says:
    April 28, 2011 at 9:11 am

    Grim – are you bothering with Owner’s title insurance? I’m about 90% on not doing it. The seller’s been in the place 30 yeras. Any minor issues afterwards I’ll pay the attorneyfees if I need to. I’ve been doing some searching and its hard to get definitive figures but the title loss scenario in such situations is virtually nil.
    Stuill with so many people making a cut on me buying it I gotta lot of people urging me to pay. Plus its insurance for some search already done. Ridiculous.

  38. ditto says:

    JJ – thanks, I’ll take a look. I’m still thinking its largely a legal scam.

  39. make money says:

    grim,

    you’re not crazy. CONGRATS!

  40. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    I was not implying Grim was crazy. I am happy for him. There’s deals to be had out there. I just want one that includes some arable land and a fresh water source.

  41. Juice X says:

    grim release my comment #49 please I gather you cannot say Albanian here.

  42. 3b says:

    #44 No it is not. The budget is put together by the BOE, and if it is defeated, the Mayor & Council make the cuts;of course the BOE has their input etc., but ultimately the Mayor & Council make the decision.

  43. Kettle1^2 says:

    3b

    but the mayor, town council and school admin are all busy scratching each others back for the most part. Until people start holding the mayor and council promptly responsible by kicking them out in short order, then the school admin might as well be the ones deciding the cuts.

  44. Juice X says:

    re # 51- 3B – The school budget vote is just more feel good political theater for the voters. Even after the budget is voted down in the towns, any cuts made would only be a token because of State Law. The State Funding Formula has to be followed. A Reverse Cap is in effect they cannot cut more than a token so it’s flat it cannot go much negative even if state funding is cut significantly. The town would still need to find a way to spend the surplus like new books etc.

    Remember it’s for the children, some towns spend as low as 11k per child while others spend 27k per child.

  45. 3b says:

    #51 Typically that has always been the case, although in my town this year, the repub dominated council, appears to be determined to cut spending and taxes. We shall see.

  46. Shore Guy says:

    Cutting-edge science, eh? Maybe we should send NASA some Lincoln Logs:

    http://m.wired.com/geekdad/2011/04/space-shuttle-endeavor-launches-tomorrow-with-a-special-payload/

  47. Mike says:

    Anyone interested in buying fake birth certificates?

  48. Kettle1^2 says:

    Keynes Vs Hayek: The Sequel
    http://youtu.be/GTQnarzmTOc

  49. ditto says:

    I can’t comprehend why anyone would live in a high tax town unless the schools were great and they had kids in the schools. Otherwise, get out or pay up.

  50. Kettle1^2 says:

    Juice

    <i.Remember it’s for the children, some towns spend as low as 11k per child while others spend 27k per child.

    27K?! That is more then 2X what i pay to send my kid to private school. I get better quality and more say in the school for half the price.

  51. Dan says:

    Grim,

    I can still blame you for helping me become a Wayne homeowner :). Sean worked out fine by the way although I don’t think this townhouse is a good gauge to determine how good a home inspector is. Good luck tomorrow.

  52. 3b says:

    #57 Otherwise, get out or pay up.

    Many are getting out, and the ones who cannot, can no longer continbue to afford to pay up.

  53. Juice X says:

    re #55 – The POTUS will be there (since he was not invited to the Royal Wedding) along with Congresswoman Gabby Giffords for the launch, they might as well fly in Oprah and some couches.

    FYI – GWB signed papers to deorbit the ISS in 2015-2016 and Obama canceled it, but not really since the Russians will be the only ones servicing the ISS. They might just as well rename it to Mir II. The last module deployed will be the Russian built and launched Nauka Multipurpose Laboratory Module (MLM) at the end of the year.
    If the Russians keep servicing it they could keep it around to 2020.

    Really sad to see our space program bite the dust.

  54. ditto says:

    kettel – private tuition in Brooklyn or Manhattan runs at 30K per kid per year. Not tax deductible. At those prices, NJ taxes for a good school district are a bargain.

  55. Kettle1^2 says:

    Ditto

    Where i live in morris county private school tuition in general is less then what public schools spend per student.

  56. ditto says:

    kettel – interesting. So do towns ever contract out the schooling to the private providers to save cash?

  57. cobbler says:

    3b [50]

    You are wrong: mayor and the municipal council cut the gross budget number if the referendum is defeated, but it is BOE on its own that decides what specifically is to be cut.

  58. cobbler says:

    kettle [63]
    I don’t believe there is a single college prep private school in NJ with the tuition lower than the average for the public schools in the state. There are parochial elementary schools with rather low tuition: if they don’t have special ed expenses, and employ nuns they can affors to be cheap.

  59. Kettle1^2 says:

    ditto,

    So do towns ever contract out the schooling to the private providers to save cash?

    Not that i am aware of. f course the catch 22 is that if you go the private school route you are effectively paying double as you are paying private school tuition and still pying property taxes that fund the public school. of course this leads directly into the entire school voucher debate, which would be the death of the current public school structure in NJ if it was ever enacted, as it would give the parents a dominant power position.

  60. 1987 Condo Buyer says:

    #66, Seton Hall Prep, Tuition for 2011-2012 is $13,000, I am writing that check, Unlike in NY, I do not believe they are subsidized. My brother pays about $7,000 in Staten Island for HS there.

    UNC, out of state, (was there browsing last week) is about $34,000 out of state, about same as asbury Park public school per pupil spending.

  61. Lone Ranger says:

    St Peter’s Prep, 10K

  62. ditto says:

    Kettel – thats why we crossed Montclair off our list – beautiful town but high taxes and a high school of a quality level that means you have to pay private (Montclair Academy?). Double pay.

  63. 1987 Condo Buyer says:

    #69, yep, it appears I am just working to pay tuitions!

  64. Juice X says:

    All the towns Per Pupil Amount spending.

    http://www.nj.gov/education/guide/2010/csg1ind.shtml

  65. jamil says:

    “Kettel – thats why we crossed Montclair off our list – beautiful town but high taxes and a high school ”

    Don’t forget that Montclair has the diversity, as I think confused (?) pointed out few months ago. At least 5 different types of obama-adoring white middle-class middle-aged socialists – and that’s confused’s house alone.

  66. Dink says:

    #68,

    Where are you getting that Asbury Park spends close to $34K per pupil. Most recent report card shows $24.5K.

  67. jamil says:

    Happy Secretaries Day! (actually that was yesterday)

    “THE 1950s and ’60s brought many new things to American offices, including the Xerox machine, word processing and — perhaps less famously — the first National Secretaries Day, in 1952. Secretaries of that era envisioned a rosy future, and many saw their jobs as a ticket to a better life.

    In 1961, the trade magazine Today’s Secretary predicted that, 50 years hence, the “secretary of the future” would start her workday at noon and take monthlong vacations thanks to the “electronic computer.” According to another optimistic assessment, secretaries (transported through office hallways “via trackless plastic bubble”) would be in ever-higher demand because of what was vaguely referred to as “business expansion.””

  68. 1987 Condo Buyer says:

    #74, valid point, I watched Christie the other week, live, and he threw out the $30k figure for asbury, he may have been wrong, all was only looking at 9-12 or k-8 or someother breakout. $24k is a lot too!, the $34k included Room and Board og about $8k

  69. 3b says:

    #66 cobbler; There are literally almost no Nuns left in Catholic schools; all lay teachers, and they are very low paid. And most (if that matters to some) do not have any advanced degrees and some did not major in education in college.

    That being said, they do appear to provide an adequate (some would say better) education than the public schools, and if there was parent choice, they could pay their teachers more.

  70. make money says:

    Where are you getting that Asbury Park spends close to $34K per pupil. Most recent report card shows $24.5K.

    Dink,

    Wow, you act like $24.5K is an efficient number.

    Good alternative. Offer a good teacher 75K per year(year round). Assuming you can get 7 kids from family, neighboors, etc to come in and homeschool. Kids get personal attention, focus etc.

    A requirement is for the teacher to have a 7 passenger SUV so that they can take trips to museums, park, theater, sightseeing, library, etc…

    This teacher teaches year round so the kid is guaranteed to be further along than any kid taking summers off. I have two cousins, who do this and their kids never come home sick from school and have developed the 2-3 best friends they’ll no doubt have for a lifetime.

  71. jamil says:

    re 73 it wasn’t confused. My mistake

  72. 3b says:

    #65 I know that. But your origianl post made it sound like the BOE decides how much to cut, which they do not. The mayor and council decide on the dollar figure, and then the BOE makes the cut. Also the M & C can question the BOE on what they decide to cut.

  73. 3b says:

    #62 Except that when you finish private school tuition you finish. In the public system you pay forever. Give parents a choice, and let those who want the public school route pay for it. With those who chose the private school amount paying a small amount towards the public school system in the town in which they live.

  74. Dink says:

    Make,

    I was making no judgement on the $24K number in my post, simply saying that the $34K appeared wrong.

    If you want my judgement, I concur that it is much too high.

  75. 1987 Condo Buyer says:

    #82, see link….

    http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/11/0419/2340/

    Asbury Park School Audit Digs Into NJ’s Big Spender
    State auditor report finds plenty of room for improvement, from staffing to phone bill
    print | email | share By John Mooney, April 20 in Education |2 Comments
    The Monmouth County school district is Gov. Chris Christie’s favorite target — well, maybe second favorite target — when it comes to criticizing New Jersey’s education establishment.

    Related Links
    State Auditor Report
    Nearly as much as he goes after the New Jersey Education Association (NJEA), Christie is sure to mention in stump speeches what he calls the poster child of excessive school spending: Asbury Park, which he says shells out as much as $33,000 per student.

    Now, the legislature’s state auditor has taken its own look, and in a report released Monday, it found a school system with more than its share of inefficiencies and lax controls, some known and some new.

  76. Juice X says:

    re # 78 – 3b – “There are literally almost no Nuns left in Catholic schools”.
    I spent a few years under the tutelage of nuns in the Bronx. It wasn’t quite like the movie “Doubt” but we did fear them and their wooden rulers. Most nuns are old and retired and the newer ones do not want to teach in the USA, they cannot practice their dark arts without the fear of the long arm of the law anymore.

    They closed most of the sadism schools (Nunneries) they came from. The Middle Ages gave birth to the view of the woman as the instrument of evil, and hence the need for the Nunnery where a women could enter and they were able to preserve both their minds and their bodies from evil and serve God. It only took about 900 years for those views to change.

  77. Lone Ranger says:

    “It wasn’t quite like the movie “Doubt” but we did fear them and their wooden rulers.”

    Juice,

    LMAO. Yeah, I got whacked a few times.

  78. Juice X says:

    Welcome to the 3rd world America.

    Wal-Mart’s core shoppers are running out of money much faster than a year ago due to rising gasoline prices, and the retail giant is worried, CEO Mike Duke said Wednesday.”We’re seeing core consumers under a lot of pressure,” Duke said at an event in New York. “There’s no doubt that rising fuel prices are having an impact.”

    Wal-Mart shoppers, many of whom live paycheck to paycheck, typically shop in bulk at the beginning of the month when their paychecks come in.

    Lately, they’re “running out of money” at a faster clip, he said.

    “Purchases are really dropping off by the end of the month even more than last year,” Duke said. “This end-of-month [purchases] cycle is growing to be a concern.

    Wal-Mart (WMT, Fortune 500), which averages 140 million shoppers weekly to its stores in the United States, is considered a barometer of the health of the consumer and the economy.

    To that end, Duke said he’s not seeing signs of a recovery yet.

    With food prices rising, Duke said Wal-Mart is charging customers more for some fresh groceries while reducing prices on other merchandise such as electronics.

    Wal-Mart has struggled with seven straight quarters of sales declines in its stores.

    http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/27/news/companies/walmart_ceo_consumers_under_pressure/index.htm

  79. 3b says:

    #84 The great thing I love about Catholic Schools (since I went to them too), is that no matter where you go in the U.S. you can talk to anyone who went, and the stories are all the same.

  80. Obviously, the smart thing to do is start cooking and eating electronic products. Even the Bernank can tell you that.

    “With food prices rising, Duke said Wal-Mart is charging customers more for some fresh groceries while reducing prices on other merchandise such as electronics.”

  81. Essex says:

    83. Bruuuuuuuce!!!!

  82. Transistors and LEDs, fresh and at everyday low prices…only at WalMart!

  83. cobbler says:

    juice [86]
    I will sponsor a fireworks display if Walmart goes out of business. There is no other single actor more responsible for the destruction of the middle class in the U.S. via squeezing its suppliers to such extent that they couldn’t survive if the production stayed at home. Cheap stuff is not an entitlement.

  84. livinginpa says:

    Haven’t posted in a long time, but been lurking as always. Looking for opinions. Just sold house in Bucks. Plan was to purchase again in Bucks, a “move up” plan, but nothing worth bidding on at the moment. It seems many sellers are unaware of what’s been going on the last 3-4 yrs. So, plan B is to rent for a year or so until we see something worth buying. Concerned about interest rates going up and jumbo loans becoming less available . Any advice?

  85. Remember when all the financial geniuses claimed WalMart- in and of itself- had eliminated inflation in the US?

  86. Kettle1^2 says:

    grim

    86 in mod. IRS is investigating the REMIC shells behind all of the mortgage shenanigans.

  87. Kettle1^2 says:

    Livinginpa

    If rate go up and jumbo loans are restricted a corresponding drop in prices for that market segment will occur. not over night but it will occur.

  88. livinginpa says:

    #95 Kettle1 – true, eventual drop. a good thing, but the question is how long we can stand to rent a 2 bedroom condo without killing each other (family of 4, 2 young kids)

  89. cobbler says:

    3b [77]
    Based on say SAT scores, results of the most Catholic schools (I don’t count the elite and costly ones like Oratory Prep) are rather mediocre for a group whose parents directly pay for their education – on par with the average suburban district, and much lower than the non-parochial private schools. Cost wise, if you add busing and a share of the special ed costs, even with the “very poorly paid” teachers they will not be much of a bargain.

  90. Kettle1^2 says:

    livingpa,

    find a rental house for a 2-3 years and let things settle. Any “loss” from renting is probably going to less then the drop in home prices you would eat by buying now. Thee increased cost of a rental comparable to your previous home is well worth peace amongst the family.

  91. A.West says:

    I’m out of SLV this AM. The best investments seem to always be the ones you don’t care much about, and you don’t pay much attention to, day to day.
    So silver might now get short squeezed to $100, who knows? Can’t last forever, industrial end use demand isn’t especially tight vs supply, and it doesn’t even seem that popular for jewelery or silverware anymore. Unless silver chopsticks turn into the next status symbol requirement in China.

  92. chicagofinance says:

    Hunter College High School: tuition $0
    Stuyvesant High School: tuition $0

    ditto says:
    April 28, 2011 at 10:25 am
    kettel – private tuition in Brooklyn or Manhattan runs at 30K per kid per year. Not tax deductible. At those prices, NJ taxes for a good school district are a bargain.

  93. ditto says:

    chicago – do you realize how many kids are competing for those spaces?
    I take it you don’t live in the city.

  94. Happy Renter says:

    [92] and [96]

    Rent a single-family house. Bet you can find one that would fit the bill. Sit on the sidelines and wait for the futile government manipulation of the housing market to stop. Continue to save. Check the market next year and see how things look.

  95. Anon E. Moose says:

    Jamil [75];

    [Secretaries Day]

    I wonder how many middle managers realize that their jobs are glorified secretarial positions? TPS reports, anyone?

  96. ditto says:

    “I take it you don’t live in the city.”

    I’m worng, you may live in the city. I mean I take it uyou don’t have school age kids currently in the city.

  97. ditto (101)-

    I have a pal whose kid went to Stuyvesant and now attends Hunter in the honors program (also free).

    Kid is bright (not Einstein bright), but this trick isn’t impossible to pull off.

  98. moose (103)-

    Better a respectable middle manager than a toady and lickspittle for criminal banksters.

    Which we all know you are.

  99. 3b says:

    #97 Agreed: But if they are on par with most suburban districts, and some parents chose to send there kids their for other reasons, than that should be there right, and IMO they should not be penalized (still paying school taxes) for it. From what I understand the Catholic schools in Bergen Co do not release their SAT scores.

    If one were buying a house based solely on SAT scores in Bergen County, than the hands down choice (at least this year) would be to buy in Ridgewood.

  100. 3b says:

    #97 Also just FYI, my kids went to public school.

  101. ditto says:

    Hobo – I live in the city, and am well aware of the requirements for hunter, stuy, bronx sci and brooklyn tech. With the organized application approach of some minorities (eg see the asian demographics as Stuy) those schools are becomer harder and harder to get into. When you consider how many school kids there are in NYC, the stats of getting in are getting bad. And middle schools, forget it, theres hardly any decent middle schools (you could go commute to Queens I suppose) Plus, its all relative to say its $0. You have to be an NYC resident. Even if you don’t own in NYC but rent, that still means NYC income tax. At my level of income, thats no different from NJ property taxes. But at least with NJ property taxes in a town, eg like GR, the kids get a guaranteed good schools elementary through middle.

  102. 3b says:

    #110the kids get a guaranteed good schools elementary through middle.

    Nothing is guranteed.

  103. Kettle1^2 says:

    3b

    death & taxes

  104. Libtard in the City says:

    Ditto,

    You knocking GR high?

  105. ditto says:

    what about Murphy’s law – its guaranteed that anything that can go wrong, will

  106. chicagofinance says:

    dit: I went from elementary school directly to Hunter. We had a rent stabilized apartment in Flushing walking distance to the end of the 7-train which was 1200 sq. ft. 2BR. Based on my calculations and the rules, I believe the rent would be roughly $675 today. Somehow prop tax ain’t in there….

    ditto says:
    April 28, 2011 at 12:51 pm
    Hobo – I live in the city, and am well aware of the requirements for hunter, stuy, bronx sci and brooklyn tech. With the organized application approach of some minorities (eg see the asian demographics as Stuy) those schools are becomer harder and harder to get into. When you consider how many school kids there are in NYC, the stats of getting in are getting bad. And middle schools, forget it, theres hardly any decent middle schools (you could go commute to Queens I suppose) Plus, its all relative to say its $0. You have to be an NYC resident. Even if you don’t own in NYC but rent, that still means NYC income tax. At my level of income, thats no different from NJ property taxes. But at least with NJ property taxes in a town, eg like GR, the kids get a guaranteed good schools elementary through middle.

  107. Libtard in the City says:

    Grim,

    You are not crazy. Just stupid, like the rest of us.

    Baaaaaaa, baaaaaaaa

  108. ditto says:

    chicago – thats fine for you. Would you get in today though? Plus your parents were paying NYC income tax right? Thats where the city gets its cash, not property taxes, which in NYC are piddling.

  109. ditto says:

    Just FYI, I don’t think things are the same as in your day Chicago:

    Stuyvesant HS (from Wiki)
    “For the 2010 academic year, the student body was approximately 69.3% Asian”

    Theres a lot of motivated kids you’re competing with nowadays

  110. Anon E. Moose says:

    Sr. Schizo [106, 107];

    New name, same old schtick.

  111. chicagofinance says:

    My brother graduated Stuy ranked 3 out of 752……..some of my classmates at Hunter have their kids matriculating….I was at least as good a student as most of them….I think we could have squeaked by…..if your kid has half a brain and is motivated, there are plenty of free opportunities in the city besides the obvious ones….

    ditto says:
    April 28, 2011 at 1:25 pm
    Just FYI, I don’t think things are the same as in your day Chicago:
    Stuyvesant HS (from Wiki)
    “For the 2010 academic year, the student body was approximately 69.3% Asian”
    Theres a lot of motivated kids you’re competing with nowadays

  112. moose (119)-

    The “same old schtick” tag applies to you, since you refuse to disclose that where you sit is where you stand. It’s really ok; after all, somebody has to do Satan’s work.

    Of course, at any such time as you admit this, your tissue-thin strand of credibility here is shot.

  113. Hobo = nothing to hide, nothing to lose

    moose = everything to hide, everything on the line

  114. ditto says:

    chicago – its still not free, NYC income tax as you keep ignoring.
    Plus the geographical spread of the good schools means you have one kid commuting to Queens for middle school and another downtown for high school…

    I’m all for public schools – My parents couldn’t afford to send me private but I still ended up with a PhD and a JD. NYC public schools are a crapshoot though.

  115. Anon E. Moose says:

    Hobo [123];

    Quite insightful [truly]. A buyer does put it on the line; an agent is entirely unaccountable and has nothing to lose. But you don’t do that work anymore, do you?

  116. JJ says:

    NYC is sooooo much cheaper. When I gave up my rent stablized one bedroom on 26th street I was only paying $795 a month in 1999. Even with the average 5% two year rent increase I would of had only 6 rent increases. So around $1,050 would be today’s rent.

    If I was still single and entire monthly expense consist of the $1,050 rent, a metro card and electric bill and I only had a 20 minute round trip commute I be rolling in money and time.

    Baruch college was right across the street from my apt. Still under 4k a year. I could have 10 kids in College and pay my housing costs in NYC for one year of a snooty ivy league school. Which I could have gone to but Obama got my spot.

  117. moose (125)-

    This is a funny statement, coming from someone whose only fiduciary interest is himself.

  118. Three more posts, moose…and you’ll have emptied a whole six-shooter of blanks.

  119. ditto says:

    JJ – I though you worked on wall st? Whats 4% of your income compared to your LI property taxes?

  120. 1987 Condo Buyer says:

    NYC: growing up there and having relatives there, I’d say costs are similar. My brother pays $4,000 in property tax on staten island for 4 bedroom 2,200 colonial. Pays 3% income tax on household combined income of $200,000 and pays NY state Tax which is competitive to NJ. Pays MTA surcharges on utility bills, etc.

    Income and property taxes go to Manhattan to be redeployed as city desires. Staten Island is not getting that money back! My property tax stays in the community.

  121. ditto says:

    1987, this is how I feel. I know where my property taxes are going when I buy in Westchester. I also know where my NYC resident income tax goes – but I don’t like it any more. So i’m off to Westchester.

  122. yo'me says:

    I was at the BMW dealer yesterday,getting my car serviced.African american guy wearing a gold necklace with a gold name pendant.His name must be written in 3″ letters with gold.I did not check his gold teeth.This guy is buying a 650i with a tagged of $100K .They came in to the dealer with his friend driving a $350K Maybach.Must be the gold investment.

    “Too bad we can’t get a read on currencies and PMs by watching rap videos anymore. A few of those cretins have more gold/silver in their mouths and on their bodies than the Crimex has available for delivery.”

  123. Juice X says:

    #134 – yo’me – recession special?

  124. young buck says:

    From the NY Times:

    Move on New Jersey Health Plan May Cost Towns but Help Power Broker
    By DAVID M. HALBFINGER
    Published: April 19, 2011

    In the last three years, hundreds of cities, towns and school districts in New Jersey have saved tens of millions of dollars on health insurance by dumping their private carriers and switching to a little-known benefits program run by the state.

    But now one of the state’s most powerful lawmakers is promoting legislation that could effectively cripple the program. The lawmaker, Stephen M. Sweeney, the State Senate president, has placed a provision in a health care insurance bill that would prohibit the program from accepting new members.

    Mr. Sweeney, a Democrat from Gloucester County, is a close ally and a childhood friend of George E. Norcross 3rd, perhaps the most influential Democratic boss in New Jersey. Mr. Norcross, of Camden County, owns one of the largest brokers of health insurance to government entities in the state, and his company has been losing customers to the program Mr. Sweeney wants to rein in, according to an analysis of the program’s records.

    Mr. Sweeney, who rose to prominence with Mr. Norcross’s support, acknowledged in an interview that he had spoken with Mr. Norcross about the provision. But Mr. Sweeney said he had not introduced it at Mr. Norcross’s behest.

    Mr. Sweeney said the state benefits program was losing hundreds of millions of dollars and required costly state subsidies. A ban on new members would “allow time for stabilization and to judge the plan’s sustainability,” he said.

    But state records and interviews call into question Mr. Sweeney’s claim that the state program is foundering.

    The health coverage bill introduced by Mr. Sweeney, who is the most important legislative ally for Gov. Chris Christie, a Republican, has gotten attention largely because it would require public-sector workers to pay much more for insurance.

    But the ban on new admissions to the state program, local officials warn, could administer a poison pill to one of the most effective tools that cities, towns and school districts in New Jersey can use to pool resources and achieve significant savings in health insurance costs.

    If the provision is approved, governments not currently in the program would then have to seek insurance through companies like Mr. Norcross’s, Conner Strong.

    The state benefits program covers three groups: one for about 146,000 state workers, another for about 180,000 teachers and other school workers, and a third for about 67,000 local-government workers.

    The program offers relatively generous benefits at low costs, and must accept any municipality or school system in New Jersey that applies, no matter how sick its work force. Privately run insurance pools sometimes accept only those that have had lower medical expenses.

    Each municipality or district that joins the state program pays the same rate, so healthier work forces subsidize sicker ones.

    The program, which does not need to make a profit, stays competitive by paying no commissions to insurance brokers, which can exceed 4 percent of premiums. And it holds administrative costs to less than a third of 1 percent, compared with as much as 15 percent for private insurance.

    Its popularity has soared since 2008, when it was overhauled to include a preferred-provider organization for the first time. With cuts in state aid and property-tax caps forcing towns and school districts to pare budgets, public-sector unions have lobbied employers to enter the state plan, because savings can be used to avert job losses.

    The state program also set its rates artificially low in 2008 to keep some employers from quitting because of the transition to the new plan design. But the low rates were more than offset by a 20 percent increase in 2010, which some insurance brokers, and Mr. Sweeney, now cite as evidence of its instability.

    Yet rate swings have not slowed the stampede: the number of government employers in the state program has climbed steadily and is up by more than 200 since 2008, to 1,034. The number of municipal and school workers has also grown sharply, records show.

    Many new participants are small school districts that lack bargaining power. Camden County College, with 450 workers, cut its health insurance costs to $5.1 million from $7.1 million in June 2008.

    “When you can save $2 million, there’s not much to talk about,” said Louis S. Bezich, the college’s vice president.

    Big employers also have benefited: the 1,050-worker Lenape Regional High School District, midway between Trenton and Atlantic City, saved more than $2 million.

    “It allowed us to survive,” Lenape’s business administrator, James H. Hager, said.

    While Mr. Sweeney has asserted that the program is doing poorly, interviews with state officials and state records, including the program’s audited financial statements, show that it has neither lost money nor required public subsidies to bail it out.

    For example, Mr. Sweeney points to what he termed a $216 million loss in the program’s funds in 2009 as evidence of a crisis.

    In fact, State Treasury Department officials said the figure was a bookkeeping device related to the complicated ways in which the program accounts for incurred medical claims and reserve funds. The $216 million does not actually represent real dollar losses that the state has to cover.

    While projections of medical claims are rarely on the mark, and premiums and surpluses have swung sharply at times, over the past four years the fluctuations have been a wash, according to a March 7 letter from the Treasury Department’s acting director of pensions and benefits, Florence J. Sheppard.

    “There are no subsidies from the state to cover Local Group losses,” she wrote, referring to the part of the program that includes school and municipal workers.

    Pressed on his assertions, Mr. Sweeney conceded through a spokesman that “no state or local group subsidies are used to cover losses.”

    But he insisted that the $216 million figure “is a loss no matter how hard some may want to try and parse words.”

    An indefinite moratorium could mean a slow death for the program, officials said. Those employers with the healthiest workers would, as ever, leave for better deals on the private market. But without the addition of new employers, those that remained — with sicker workers and costlier claims — would have to shoulder more of the burden, at fast-rising rates.

    The main beneficiaries of a moratorium, meanwhile, would be companies like Mr. Norcross’s Conner Strong, which calls itself “one of the largest benefits firms in the nation for public entities.”

    Conner Strong is the broker or administrator for scores of government entities in New Jersey. But it has been losing health insurance business to the state; about two dozen school districts and municipal employers have left the company to switch to the state benefits program since 2008, according to records and local officials.

    Mr. Sweeney said that he had discussed his bill with Mr. Norcross, but that he had come up with the idea for a moratorium independently. The senator added that neither Mr. Norcross nor anyone at his company had helped draft the legislation.

    “Everybody says, ‘Oh, you’re doing it for George Norcross.’ But that’s not what it was,” Mr. Sweeney said. “Have I ever spoken to George about it? Sure, I talked to George. He thinks it’s a good idea that we start to do something. But it’s about controlling health care costs.”

    Mr. Norcross would not comment. His company issued a statement saying the proposed changes to the state program would be “immaterial to our total business portfolio.”

    Even so, the company has trumpeted Mr. Sweeney’s proposal. In a “legislative update” on its Web site, Conner Strong conjured a bleak forecast for employers that stick with the state program.

    “The call for a moratorium and the now public disclosures of long suspected financial problems,” the company wrote, “raises serious doubts about the future of the state plans and the likelihood of members facing substantial increases very soon.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/20/nyregion/nj-move-on-health-plan-may-cost-towns-but-help-power-broker.html

  125. JJ says:

    AHHH the $64,000 Question. In my building since none of us owned the apartments no one paid the NYC tax. Pretty much the young people kept Mom and Dads address as their car was insured there anyhow and older folks had vacation homes. Plus back then I made very little. Most rental people have multiple address. When I got married I had to dump my Apartment address, my Mom’s address, my coops address and get down to one address. Rental people just use cheapest for car insurance and taxes out of their box of addresses.

    My LI property taxes are less than half of what my NYC taxes would be.

    I think to live in Manhattan the NYC tax is a price that is worth paying, people in Bronx, Queens, SI and most of Brooklyn it is a wast.

    ditto says:
    April 28, 2011 at 2:06 pm

    JJ – I though you worked on wall st? Whats 4% of your income compared to your LI property taxes?

  126. JJ says:

    Ballpark has is brother doing, I always say smart folk don’t make a lot so want to see.

    Chicagofinance says:
    April 28, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    My brother graduated Stuy ranked 3 out of 752……..

  127. chicagofinance says:

    ditto says:
    April 28, 2011 at 1:46 pm
    chicago – its still not free, NYC income tax as you keep ignoring.
    Plus the geographical spread of the good schools means you have one kid commuting to Queens for middle school and another downtown for high school…

    dit: I had a commute to school that consisted of 15 minutes of walking and 50 minutes on the train. I did it for 6 years from age 12 in a much more dangerous version of NYC. So what?

  128. Confused In NJ says:

    When I tested for Brooklyn Tech in 1958, each eight grade school was allowed to send their top three graduates for the test. I graduated Saint John Evangelist in Brooklyn, and was third in my class with a 99.2 average. Ed had 99.6 and John had 99.9. Ed and I passed the test, John didn’t, go figure. But they both went on to Saint Augustine anyway, with me attending Tech. Both subsequently became Lawyers. The key differenciator was their parents had money, mine didn’t. Tech in 1958 was about 60% Jewish, relative to student demographics. It’s program was like a college in that you matriculated to your major for Junior & Senior Year. In my case my major was Industrial Design. My brother who graduated Tech majored in Electrical Engineering. Tech was “All Boys” back then, and BayRidge HS was their “All Girls” sister school. Tech held it’s Prom at the Waldorf Astoria, and BayRidge held it’s at the Hotel Americana. My senior year neighborhood girlfriend was a BR girl, so I worked many hours at the Candy Store to pay for two Proms. Prom tickets in 1962 were $45.

  129. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [139] confused.

    When you attended your prom, I was still waiting for my umbilical cord stub to fall off.

  130. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [139] confused, redux

    Of course, there are probably some here that can say the same to me.

  131. ditto says:

    jj – well cheating on your NYC taxes is bound to be cheaper. Even when you get caught the fines are laughable.

    Chicago – at #138 – right, so its a crummy deal and a crapshoot!

  132. JJ says:

    http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/bddd73d470/gary-fong-real-estate

    Gary Fong is best realtor in the world!!! Great video

  133. JJ says:

    It is not the tax fine it is you could lose your apt as it is supposed to be primary residence.

    ditto says:
    April 28, 2011 at 3:21 pm

    jj – well cheating on your NYC taxes is bound to be cheaper. Even when you get caught the fines are laughable.

    Chicago – at #138 – right, so its a crummy deal and a crapshoot!

  134. ditto says:

    yea but when do they follow through on that? If you do not pay property taxes in NYC its years before the city does anything.

  135. Juice X says:

    WTF!

    SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) — The U.S. got a sovereign credit rating of C on Thursday, in line with ratings for such smaller economies as Mexico, Estonia and Colombia.

    Weiss Ratings, based in Jupiter, Fla., has rated the creditworthiness of financial institutions for several years, but the firm launched sovereign- debt ratings of 47 countries on Thursday. The U.S. rating of C (Fair) ranks it 33rd, Weiss noted in a statement.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-gets-c-credit-rating-lower-than-mexico-2011-04-28?link=MW_home_latest_news

  136. Young Buck says:

    OWal-Mart said Thursday that it is bringing guns back to many of its U.S. stores in an effort to lift slumping sales.

    In 2006, Wal-Mart, the world’s largest retailer stopped selling guns in the majority of its stores, blaming slow demand for those types of firearms.

    Wal-Mart currently sells rifles, shotguns and ammunition in about 1,300 stores in the United States.

    Those firearms will now be available at about half of Wal-Mart’s 4,000 stores.

    The retailer doesn’t sell handguns in any of its stores, other than in Alaska.

    After suffering seven straight quarters of falling sales, Wal-Mart says that it is adding more merchandise variety to stores and becoming more aggressive on prices versus its competitors.

    Reintroducing guns is part of the retailer’s push, Wal-Mart spokesman Lorenzo Lopez said.

    Lopez said Wal-Mart is focusing on stores in areas where hunting and fishing are popular activities.

    ‘We realized there is broader appeal for guns in some areas because of sporting needs,” said Lopez.

    He also said that the majority of the firearms sold at Wal-Mart are made in the United States.

    Lopez said consumers will have to complete appropriate forms and background checks before they can buy guns at Wal-Mart.

    cnnmoney.mobi/primary/_QM0odx-iNhpvhVN1e

  137. Confused In NJ says:

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) – More than half of Americans say the U.S. economy is in a recession or a depression despite official data that show a moderate recovery, according to a poll released on Thursday.

    The April 20-23 Gallup survey of 1,013 U.S. adults found that only 27 percent said the economy is growing. Twenty-nine percent said the economy is in a depression and 26 percent said it is in a recession, with another 16 percent saying it is “slowing down,” Gallup said.

    The poll findings have a 4 percentage point margin of error, according to Gallup.

    The health of the U.S. economy is expected to be a major issue as President Barack Obama, a Democrat, seeks re-election in 2012.

    The government reported on Thursday that U.S. economic growth slowed more than expected to 1.8 percent in the first quarter of the year, as soaring food and gasoline prices drained consumer spending power.

    A slowdown in first-quarter growth was acknowledged on Wednesday by the Federal Reserve, which described the U.S. economic recovery as proceeding at a “moderate pace.” That was a step back from the “firmer footing” that Fed officials cited for the recovery in March.

    The Gallup poll found that Democrats are the most likely to say the economy is growing. Forty-three percent of Democrats said the economy is in a recession or depression, 13 percent said it is slowing down and 42 percent said it is growing.

    Sixty-eight percent of Republicans and supporters of the conservative Tea Party movement said the economy is in a recession or a depression. Fourteen percent of Republicans and 13 percent of Tea Party supporters said the economy is growing.

    Fifty-seven percent of independent voters — a crucial segment of the electorate for Obama’s re-election bid — said the economy is in a recession or depression and 24 percent said it is growing

    Good to know that at least half of all Americans still have a brain.

  138. Confused In NJ says:

    140.Comrade Nom Deplume says:
    April 28, 2011 at 3:03 pm
    [139] confused.

    When you attended your prom, I was still waiting for my umbilical cord stub to fall off.

    When you were learning to walk, I was in VietNam.

  139. cobbler says:

    juice [46]
    Our economy and governance are in a terrible shape. However, the only reason the country whose sovereign debt is almost exclusively in its own fiat currency could default would be if there is a conscientious decision not to pay. While the Congress is totally disfunctional and useless, it is not suicidal.
    Going to the ratings article, actually, I have a serious problem with the A- rating they give to the Saudis. With the (quite possible) regime change, I don’t see any reason why the new government wouldn’t renounce the royal debts.

  140. Taylor says:

    Grim is crazy. But Taylor is awesome.

  141. morpheus says:

    grim:

    MLS2836337 in denville: appears to not be active on the MLS. Is it under contract? attorney review?

    thanks

  142. Orion says:

    Grim: Congrats!

    If you’re pulling the trigger — you’re seeing light at the end of this deep, dark tunnel.

    I’ve adopted a new method of buying: 1) make offer 2) do inspection 3) lawyer draws contract. Our attorney has made enough from us this year from doing contracts only for us to find out later the inspection showed shitty results. Monday will be my 4th inspection this year. If it meets our standards then attorney will get a call. If seller balks, I just walk away.

  143. grim says:

    MLS2836337 in denville: appears to not be active on the MLS. Is it under contract? attorney review?

    UC – Looks like a closing date of 6/30. Ask me to check back in a few weeks to see if there is a closing price.

  144. grim says:

    American Dream mall?

    Are they kidding? I’m not sure which name is worse.

  145. yo'me says:

    Biggest debt problem of the US is not budget deficit,it is trade deficit.Through all the years of a strong dollar policy while the chinese and the third world are producing everything for us.

  146. Lone Ranger says:

    “Through all the years of a strong dollar policy”

    Yome,

    I hear Chinese students laughing. You mean strong dollar policy of 30 years ago with Tall Paul whipping inflation?

  147. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (149) confused

    No doubt. My dad would have been there with you but for my arrival.

  148. grim says:

    Holy sh!+!

    Weather Journal: Clouds Gathered, But No Tornado Damage

    With weather officials sounding the all-clear Thursday afternoon, Greater New York emerged undamaged from the historic tornado outbreak that has afflicted nearly half the nation and rendered this month the most tornadically active April in U.S. history.

    Funnel clouds made their closest brush with New York City since striking Brooklyn and Queens last September, with a trained weather spotter observing three in short succession near Wayne, N.J., at about 12:15 p.m. Thursday. At one point, six counties in the region were under a tornado warning.

    Radar imagery at that time confirms a significant threat, with Doppler wind estimates in excess of 70 mph. There were several reports of downed trees Thursday, but none of damaged houses — unlike Wednesday’s tornadoes in upstate New York.

  149. zieba says:

    Clot et al,

    A friend told me about this TV spot, I’ve never seen it myself [I don’t watch much TV] but apparently it’s running on certain cable channels:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTSQozWP-rM

    are these the new this is your brain on drugs spots from the 90’s?

    and oh, almost obligatory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubsd-tWYmZw

  150. zieba (163)-

    The only director that could’ve one-upped that “Suzanne Researched It” classic is Leni Riefenstahl…and she was very, very dead at the time.

    You can almost smell money going to the place where money dies when you watch that.

  151. Green shoots?

    “This is what the US economy has been reduced to: McDonalds reports that as part of its employment event to hire 50,000 minimum wage, part-time (mostly) workers, subsequently raised to 62,000 it received a whopping 1 million applications, or a Tim Geithner jealousy inducing 6.2% hit rate (h/t X. Kurt. Osis). Alas, the US economy is now so pathetic that the bulk of the population will settle for anything. Literally anything. And the saddest part: over 938,000 applicants were turned away. Here’s hoping to Burger King needs a few million janitors in the immediate future too. And yes, aside from reality, things in America are really recovering quite nicely.”

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-28/mcdonald-s-hires-62-000-during-national-event-24-more-than-planned.html

  152. spyderjacks says:

    163- TV-spot: That was refreshing. So, in the future, if the U.S. continues on it’s economic self-destructive path, then the world will no longer be controlled by ‘white’ people – I finally have hope!!!

    Sure, it’s the conservative bigots who are trying to rally the under-educated masses with some xenophobia… but doesn’t this simply point to the ultimate source of the problem? The problem is “us”. We should count ourselves lucky if someone would take the keys away from “us” – please!

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