What evidence of stabilization?

From the Asbury Park Press:

NJ’s economy improves, but housing market still faces price declines

Kristen Forma checks out real estate websites several times a day as she searches for a home for her family in Middletown.

She does research, finding out what other houses have sold for in various neighborhoods, to evaluate prices. One day, she visited seven houses.

But so far, she has not found what she’s looking for. “Either I am seeing gigantic houses or I am seeing things that are overpriced,” said Forma, who has a buyer for the family’s home in Montgomery in Somerset County, where she lives with her husband and two sons.

The housing market is in the midst of the spring selling season, one of the prime times when prospective home buyers walk up steps, check closets, inspect bathrooms and bedrooms.

But even with modest improvements to the state’s economy, the housing market in the Garden State remains in the weeds. “Sales are running less than last year,’’ said Jeffrey G. Otteau, president of Otteau Valuation Group in East Brunswick. “We have more houses on the market and prices are once again declining.” Still, there is a hint of some good news.

The median home price in New Jersey declined 6.6 percent in the first quarter as compared to the first quarter of 2010, according to the Otteau Valuation Group. In Monmouth County, the median home price fell 8 percent in the first quarter while Ocean County’s median home price saw a 10 percent decline, both over the same period last year, the firm said.

The pace of sales statewide during the quarter declined 18 percent statewide, compared with last year’s first quarter, which was boosted by the federal home buyers’ tax credit that expired last spring. But when compared with the first quarter of 2009, before the home buyers’ tax credit, there was a modest 2 percent increase, Otteau said in a market report.

“Although the sales are occurring at a slower pace than last year, it is clear evidence that the housing market has stabilized, that the pace of sales has stabilized,” Otteau said last week.

“While those things are starting to look better, from an economic perspective, given that we lost the tax credits we’re likely to see price declines in 2011,” Otteau said. His firm is projecting a 3 percent decline in New Jersey in 2011.

Rutgers economist Joseph Seneca said uncertainty in the job market plays a key role in the sale of homes, as does rising food and energy costs.

“These are not conditions that sort of align to generate great confidence to make a major purchase,” Seneca said.

This entry was posted in Economics, Housing Bubble, New Jersey Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

161 Responses to What evidence of stabilization?

  1. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  2. Nothing but scorched earth and the stench of death.

    No one will be spared. No one.

  3. Crimex getting some competition!

    “30 years ago, Bunker Hunt, while trying to demand delivery for virtually every single silver bar in existence, and getting caught in the middle of a series of margin hikes (sound familiar), accused the Comex (as well as the CFTC and the CBOT) of changing the rules in the middle of the game (and was not too happy about it). Whether or not this allegation is valid is open to debate. We do know that “testimony would reveal that nine of the 23 Comex board members held short contracts on 38,000,000 ounces of silver. With their 1.88 billion dollar collective interest in having the price go down, it is easy to see why Bunker did not view them as objective.” One wonders how many short positions current Comex board members have on now. Yet by dint of being a monopoly, the Comex had and has free reign to do as it pleases: after all, where can futures investors go? Nowhere… at least until now. In precisely 9 days, on May 18, the Hong Kong Mercantile exchange will finally offer an alternative to the Comex and its alleged attempts at perpetual precious metals manipulation.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/article/hong-kong-mercantile-exchanges-1-kilo-gold-contract-end-comex-gold-futures-trading-and-bang-

  4. Jets12 says:

    It’s valueless to speak to NJ real estate in a monolithic context. We live in a mirco-market reality (regionally & price bracket wise). The market in one community may be enormously contrasted with what’s happening in a community a few miles aways.

    In River Edge, NJ prices appear to be significantly higher in 2011 with no tax credit than the previous years, 2010 with the tax credit.

    Average Price/sqft $215+26.5% y-o-y
    Median Sales Price $474,500 +13.2% y-o-y

    http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/River_Edge-New_Jersey/

    Meanwhile in South Orange prices are seriously down (20%+).
    Median Sales Price$325,000 -21.7% y-o-y

    River Edge, NJ, the little community that could! Performing stronger than Glen Rock, NJ for example in these times. Okay, flame away on River Edge….

  5. Neanderthal Economist says:

    Jets, do you really believe prices are up 26% in river edge? And are you really basing your conclusion on a website fraught with bias, and a calculation that compares average sold to average asking of two different housing stocks in two different periods? Yea right. No wonder you’re getting so much disparity from community to community. Sorry buddy, got to use paired sales (comps) and then you’ve got to subtract renovations. Prices are not up and they’re certainly not up 26%.

  6. Jets12 says:

    Neanderthal Economist, No, I do not think Trulia is 100% accurate. However I do think as ‘general guidance’ it reflects an ‘in line’ trend that’s valid.

    The point? Facts are facts, no? And we’re talking about very easy factual data (history) to fact check (sales). I don’t think any source or data anywhere would suggest Media Price in River Edge or Price / Sq’ in 2011 is down from 2010. Now are prices up 10%? 15%? 20%? I don’t know. But don’t lose site of the point. Contrary to most communities, River Edge is doing very well, thriving in this market compared to most all markets of NJ. River Edge us UP, way Up, while most communities are DOWN, seriously down. Why that is?….who knows.

    Now I ask you, do you believe Media Sales Prices in River Edge are down in 2011 v. 2010? Do you think ave. price/sq’ is down in River Edge, NJ in 2011 v. 2010?

  7. Jets12 says:

    Neanderthal Economist & all, if anyone has any data or facts to suggest River Edge, NJ Median Sales prices or Price / Sq’ prices are down in 2011 v. 2010, please, do post. I don’t think it’s out there as I don’t think it’s the case.

    Throw all the tomatoes you want at River Edge, NJ. Show me facts that say prices are not up in 2011 v. 2010.

  8. 3b says:

    #5 jets We have this same nonsense form a poster called In The Know a few weeks ago with the link to Trula. Turns out the house he was referencing I believe previously sold for 525K. Prices are down at least 20% in River Edge from the peak Ad there are large amount of homes on the market over the last few years. Plus many of the listings are in the 300 to 350k range, something not seen for quite some time. (Not to mention there are even some lsitings now under 300k).

    The taxes to continue to rocket upward, with the town going frpom one of the lowest taxed towns in Bergen Co, to one of the highest. And the funding battle with Oradell continues. Amazing that there is still so much denial in River Edge.

  9. gary says:

    “Although the sales are occurring at a slower pace than last year, it is clear evidence that the housing market has stabilized, that the pace of sales has stabilized,” Otteau said last week.

    The interpretation:

    Although the town was husked and ravaged by three F-5 tornadoes and a 100 year flood, a ray of sunshine peaked through a cloud for an instant according to one eye-witness account.

  10. 3b says:

    #8 Throw all the tomatoes you want at River Edge, NJ. Show me facts that say prices are not up in 2011 v. 2010.

    If you really believe that, then no wonder the town is in the shape it is in. Denial, denial, denial.

  11. 3b says:

    #9 Except in River Edge NJ, where they are up in 2011 from 2010.

  12. NJ Toast says:

    Unemployment remains high as does job insecurity. We are all temp employees and duration of a given job I am told is now less than 4 years. A portion of the new reality is that anyone who buys a house is making a long term economic commitment with a short term supply of capital (paycheck). By default, this reduces the # of people who are willing to buy homes. Renting becomes more popular but what I want to know is that given the above, some of which is here to stay, what will be the future of the single family home – would it be possible for a company to get a pool of homes and you lease one for say three years – kind of like a time share? There has to be some type of business opportunity in all of this.

    Are my eyes playing tricks on me? $1,050,000 for this?

    http://new.gsmls.com/publicsite/propsearch.do method=moredetails&sysid=2855059

  13. Dink says:

    Jets,

    You do realize the data you are citing is based on 20 sales (which is -17% yoy btw). To make a broad generalization of a town’s market based on this sample is foolish.

  14. 3b says:

    #17 The person (jets) is an embarrasmment to River Edge. So much for Blue Ribbon schools.

  15. chicagofinance says:

    At the end of the day, the idea is to measure a given home and the value through the passage of time. To the extent that the #’s of a certain town change from period to period, as “dink” notes, these “numbers” are merely a proxy for the value of a single home.

    Everyone arguing can be factually correct, but what I will bet against is Jets declaration…..his facts don’t support the argument he is making.

  16. 30 Year Realtor says:

    NJMLS statistics indicate a median sales price in 2009 of $368,250 and $364,000 for 2010 in River Edge.

  17. 30 Year Realtor says:

    oops! please ignore the stats I posted. will update with correct info.

  18. Libtard in the City says:

    Plain and simple, it’s too small of a sample size and too questionable of a data source. Throw in the larger number of REOs that a town with such a low median sales price is likely to garner (think lower income residents = more likely to abuse credit) and there is an increased likely hood that an anomaly such as the one Jets12 points out will occur. Plus, and perhaps most importantly, he is a Jets fan. As we all know, this proves that it might not be denial in play. More likely, he is suffering from a permanent mental illness, just like JJ.

  19. Libtard in the City says:

    Looking at the recent Zillow numbers of an 8 percent year over year decline in housing prices, it’s obviously high time for a retroactive housing credit. You can do it Obama!

  20. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Yes we can!

  21. 30 Year Realtor says:

    River Edge 2009 median $420,000. River Edge 2010 median $434,450. This is based upon 127 transactions in 2009 and 107 transactions in 2010. Search included SF, condo and 2 to 4 unit homes.

  22. Mikeinwaiting says:

    In mod again wtf.

  23. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Euro markets not happy today, a lot of red ink across the board.

  24. 30 Year Realtor says:

    Comp killer – 577 Clarendon Ct, River Edge. Sold 7/18/2006 $519,900. House was then improved with new stainless and granite kitchen, new bath, paint, patio, etc… Sold 7/15/09 for $490,000.

    After doing some research it would be reasonable to say that River Edge has depreciated at a typical rate for desirable Bergen County communities. The rate of depreciation being lower than North Jersey depreciation in general.

  25. NJGator says:

    Barbara – You’ve got mail!

  26. Jets12 says:

    3B & all. Verbal rhetoric does not obfuscate real numbers. Again, there is no data out there to suggest Median Sales Price in 2011 in River Edge, NJ is lower than it was in 2010. It’s not hard to follow, numbers don’t lie, and they’re up.

    You 3B (in being silly & flat out wrong) are big into cherry picking an isolated exception to try and prove a larger point on the whole. You then speak to other issues (taxes, schools, whatever).

    What you don’t do is head speak to the fact that Median Sales Price in River Edge, NJ is higher, up in 2011 v. 2010. I understand you and others here don’t like this fact and truth, but it is what it is, sorry.

  27. Jets12 says:

    30 Year Realtor, you too play the dumb game of cherry picking an isolated exception and asking the reading to buy into the notion that it applies to the whole. It does not.

    30 Year, you know darn well Median Sales Price in River Edge, NJ is higher in 2011 than it was in 2010 and if that were not true, you would speak to this singular point and furnish numbers to show otherwise. You don’t and you can’t.

    Focus, we’re taking about MEDIAN SALES PRICE in River Edge, NJ in 2011. Again, up from 2010, deal withit.

  28. Juice X says:

    Trip down memory lane at the Comex in 1980 courtesy of Fortune Magazine

    http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2011/05/08/who-guards-whom-at-the-commodity-exchange-fortune-1980/

  29. chicagofinance says:

    What is your point? Give a SINGLE home and state its value in 2010 and state what you think it is worth today….you think the value went up? I call bat guano……you can spit out whatever facts you want and those facts can be true…..however, you will need to do a deeper drilldown into them to be convincing….

    Jets12 says:
    May 9, 2011 at 9:47 am
    30 Year Realtor, you too play the dumb game of cherry picking an isolated exception and asking the reading to buy into the notion that it applies to the whole. It does not.

    30 Year, you know darn well Median Sales Price in River Edge, NJ is higher in 2011 than it was in 2010 and if that were not true, you would speak to this singular point and furnish numbers to show otherwise. You don’t and you can’t.

    Focus, we’re taking about MEDIAN SALES PRICE in River Edge, NJ in 2011. Again, up from 2010, deal withit.

  30. Libtard in the City says:

    Jets12,

    Is it save for us to assume that you recently purchased a home in River Edge?

  31. JJ says:

    You know realtors are a touchy bunch. Some women realtor asked me what I really thought of her listing. I said only thing that could help this house is a gallon of gas and a book of matches and as a realtor you should be ashamed of taking such a over priced shit house as a listing cause you are wasting everyones time and it will never result in a sale. Then she gets all touchy, why ask me for a honest opinion. She is lucky she did not ask me about her shoes or hair.

  32. Libtard in the City says:

    save = safe.

  33. Nation of Wussies HEHEHE says:

    “You know realtors are a touchy bunch. Some women realtor asked me what I really thought of her listing. I said only thing that could help this house is a gallon of gas and a book of matches and as a realtor you should be ashamed of taking such a over priced shit house as a listing cause you are wasting everyones time and it will never result in a sale. Then she gets all touchy, why ask me for a honest opinion. She is lucky she did not ask me about her shoes or hair.”

    Obviously the house was not staged properly. If it had been staged properly undoubtedly JJ would have had a completely different opinion.

  34. JJ says:

    You need to determine the risk adjust you housing investment and add in the use of funds and you mortgage, taxes upkeep costs to see if you home went up in value.

    For instance Jan 2006 you could have bought a five year muni at 4%. 500K would be worth 600K today. No costs, no taxes. Meanwhile I highly doubt any home bought in Jan 2006 when closing, mortgage interest, RE taxes and maint is added up would net you a 100K gain. People just go I paid 500K it is worth 600K I am up 100K. Maybe in a tax free muni that you held to maturity that you bought in a discount brokerage you can say that. But RE has a lot of costs associated with it. Unlike a bond that matures, you have to eat like 7% of total cost just to sell.

  35. 3b says:

    #34 Oh I would definitely say new to town. Also too much of a concidence, Jets is In The Know.

  36. Libtard in the City says:

    If that’s the case, then the denial is strong within this one, no?


    Stoda

  37. gary says:

    Oh, I get it, it’s different in River Edge. They’re insulated. Nowhere else is it different… just River Edge. Of course, if one was to buy a house in Irvington, then that would be different as well. Just when I thought Westfield and Ridgewood were the only towns that were different, I find out River Edge belongs to that group, too.

  38. 3b says:

    #41 Yeah gary, thats right; and as Jets (In The Know) says, just deal with it.

  39. Libtard in the City says:

    Well,

    Looking at the Trulia sales trend charts for Glen Ridge and Montclair (which I’ve never done before since I know they are complete nonsense). Glen Ridge doesn’t look like it participated in the bubble burst and Montclair homes are down a mere 60 to 70% from peak. It’s a nice source to use, kind of like when Jamil cites Rush Limbaugh.

  40. 30 Year Realtor says:

    Jets – The median price increased from 2009 to 2010. There could be many reasons for this increase, for example the 2009 figures could have included more smaller homes or condos.

    For 2011 there have been 20 closed sales to date through NJMLS, including SF, condo and 2 to 4 unit homes. Median sale price $397,500. Too small a sample to be meaningful. Still lower than both 2009 and 2010 medians.

  41. danxp says:

    investment property question:

    how much positive cash flow would one need to warrant becoming a landlord? if after a 20% dp, my piti is $3k, what should my rental income be to warrant taking the risk (and headaches) of being a landlord?

    thanks.

  42. Happy Renter says:

    [34] I don’t think “InTheJets12” recently bought a home in River Edge. Quite the opposite, to me the propaganda has all the spin of someone selling a home in River Edge.

    If were a buyer in this market, the fact that any given town had an increase in median sales price (even if it’s just a statistical fluke) from last year would give me serious pause as to whether the coming second leg down in home prices was not simply going to be more painful in that town. Unless there is some fundamental economic reason for why “it’s different there” which I have not heard from InTheJets12.

    As merely a bemused bystander to the train wreck of the NJ housing market crash, I’m interested in hearing all information about why it’s different in River Edge …

  43. danxp says:

    re: river edge…

    i’ve been scouring njmls for many years and have been working with my realtor visiting properties and viewing all kinds of data online… of all the ‘respectable’ towns in bergen county, the one that i would say is in a ‘freefall’, it would be river edge…

    i even ask the realtors at open houses why this is the case, and they don’t deny it, they just they don’t know… they say perhaps it’s the high taxes… i suspect there’s something deeper… flooding? the ongoing funding battle with oradell? mall traffic? i dunno, what the hell do i know?

    one thing i do know, is that the price needs to drop even more for me to consider paying $12k taxes on a $400k pos house…

    just sayin.

  44. stu (23)-

    My guess is that he has some sort of head injury.

  45. gary says:

    Happy Renter,

    It’s different in River Edge because they have frequent unicorn sightings there.

  46. he (37)-

    The only “staging” jj would respond to would be the agent, bent over a chair.

  47. At least I’ve heard of Westfield, Summit, Millburn, Short Hills, etc.

    River Edge? WTF????

  48. Is Hoffa buried in River Edge?

    What river is this town on the edge of, how often does it flood, and how much of the town is contaminated?

  49. rather not say says:

    Im reading the posts and dont get it. River Edge sucks. Its a crappy town with a detective named Wilhelm, Kurt who is a bigger asshole. Does this idiot Jets live in River Edge. Well dream on, idiot, River Edge is a dump.

  50. rather not say says:

    This Detective in River Edge is alittle fat dough boy detective who makes over 140K and eats all day. Thats how great RIver Edge is you moron.

  51. rather not say says:

    Crumbs all over little fat boy detective’s desk. Eats all day and night gets overtime and we pay for that great River Edge fat boy Kurt Wilhelm!! Pathetic. You can shove River Edge JETS!!!! GO eat with all the little crumby fat boy cops in River Edge and pay for their little dough boy stomachs.

  52. rather not say says:

    I would rather have the cops on roids than fat bloat crumb boys!!!!

  53. freedy says:

    i guess rather hates river edge. but it is a dump.

  54. Rather is my new favorite poster here. Excellent mixture of barely-suppressed rage and contempt.

  55. While we’re arguing the relative demerits of River Edge, S&P has taken the ugly stick to Greece. Anticipates 50% principal reductions.

  56. 3b says:

    #51 It can now be known as Brigadoon North.

  57. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Hobo River Edge is close to Alpine, and the residents love the smell of their own gas. on the tawny shores of the Hackensack River, just a scant drive from the fine burbs of Hackensack, Englewood,Dumont and Bergenfield. doesn’t it make you yearn to pay 12K a year taxes on a post WWII crapshack.

    I think rather is channeling Booyah Bob, or Bb has returned from his unibomber styled exile and settled in River Edge.

    Booyah!

  58. gary says:

    Little fat doughboy detectives! LMAO!!!

  59. Shore Guy says:

    Since it is hard to forsee a town like Riveredge actually cutting spending, I suspect that a $400,000 house with a $12,000 tax bill will end up being a 300,000 house with a $14,000 tax bill.

  60. The edge of the river says:

    River Edge lol…

    After we returned from a long night out in NYC we ended up at the River Edge diner. One of our group left the diner without eating because he was feeling queasy. Well he went out into the parking lot and was so inebriated he could not find our car and ended up finding another car that looked similar, door was open and he plopped into the rear seat for a snooze. Well the owner of the car did not take it too well. We did not know what all the commotion was when the police car came flying into the lot with their lights on so we stayed put and finished our meal. When we left and went to our car we did not find our friend so we assumed he wandered off, we did look nearby but could not find him. The next morning we got a call that he was in the River Edge drunk tank all night, and had a shiner and bumps and bruises from the car owner who kicked and punched him because he would not wake up and get out of the car!
    Cops took him in and let him snooze it off. These days it would have meant a trip to the Hospital and perhaps a couple of citations. Cops today are different that a couple decades ago. Even the fat lazy ones won’t give you a break anymore.

  61. JJ says:

    where the heck is riveredge and what do people make per year their and where do they work?

  62. chicagofinance says:

    GTG?
    Mario Batali’s waistline isn’t the only part of his empire expanding.

    Eataly, the sprawling marketplace-style shop and eatery in the Toy Building at 200 Fifth Avenue, is getting more than just a year-round, 5000 square-foot beer garden, which is slated to open on the building’s glorious rooftop within the next month.

    Batali and partners Joe Bastianich and Lidia Matticchio Bastianich will also be adding a space in the building, which had been vacant and used as Eataly office space — in between the market and Fidelity Investments

  63. Gramarian for JJ says:

    There = a location

    Their = possessive plural

  64. Gramarian for JJ says:

    Oh, and “if” is followed by “were” when in the subjunctive case.

    As in

    If I were not so drunk, I would never consider buying you a drink.

  65. 3b says:

    #63 That is exactly where it is going. And I think people are starting to wake up to that fact now. Jets/IN The Know, appears to be trying to keep the illusion alive that not only is all well, but prices are increasing. Deep, deep denial, but does not change the facts.

  66. Shore Guy says:

    3b,

    Until there are several yeats if actulal cuts, not reductions in increases but honest to God cuts, in town, county, and state budgets I don’t know how it can be otherwise.

  67. Shore Guy says:

    Years, too

  68. JJ says:

    so riveredge is a good place to live if you work in the bronx. So unless you are a zoo keeper or a baseball player the commute stinks.

  69. gary says:

    If you thought the housing crisis was bad, think again.

    It’s worse.

    New data just out from Zillow, the real-estate information company, show house prices are falling at their fastest rate since the Lehman collapse.

    Average home prices are down 8% from a year ago, 3% over the quarter, and are falling at about 1% every month, according to Zillow.

    Except in River Edge, the place where Shrek and Fiona live.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/112698/housing-crash-getting-worse-marketwatch?mod=bb-budgeting

  70. 3b says:

    #73 Except in River Edge, the place where Shrek and Fiona live.
    The new name is North Brigadoon, on the Rivers Edge.

  71. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    3b Avalon on Hackensack would be better no? Where the mystical creatures of legend reside.

  72. Happy Renter says:

    [74] Along the lines of Croton-on-Hudson, perhaps we should consider an equally hoity-toity name like “Brig-on-Hackensack” …

  73. Libtard in the City says:

    How about Hackensack Hills?

  74. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Housing Double-Dip Surprises Economists Again
    http://seekingalpha.com/article/268801-housing-double-dip-surprises-economists-again
    “Buyers who qualify for mortgages are demanding bigger discounts as added insurance against further declines in values. Sellers, meanwhile, are balking. “More often, they don’t want to take the first offer,” says Jeffrey Otteau, president of Otteau Valuation Group, an East Brunswick, N.J., appraisal firm. “What they don’t realize is, in an oversupplied market, the next offer is for less.”

    Good one give it a read.

  75. Jets12 says:

    Lots of talk. ZERO, absolutely no substance countering the fact and truth that median home price is higher in 2011 in River Edge, NJ than it was in 2010. I wish it were not true but that is the fact.

    I don’t own in River Edge. I’ve put in 2 offers in 2011, both turned down with not even a counter, 1 offer 13% below asking, the other 11.5% below asking, both homes sold in less than 60 days. I thought and assumed I would get a counter and perhaps meet in the middle. No dice. I have a seasoned local agent and submit offers with mortgage commitments, seek no givebacks, assume all buyer closing costs.

    You cannot dispute or deny the facts. Go look at the amount of inventory in places like Maplewood, Montclair, etc. and then look at amount of inventory in River Edge. Then look at the amount of closed sales in these communities 2011. The numbers, the factual numbers speak to how strong the market there is and %-wise, River Edge has a fraction of the inventory but blows the doors off Maplewood and Montclair.

    I read these comments here and they simply are disconnected and disengaged from the facts on the ground in the real world. The comments here are not consistent with the facts and history. I am talking about the history of March 2011, February 2011, etc. I am trying to buy in River Edge myself, but the homes I aim for seem to sell at asking or no more than 5% below asking, and do so in less than 90 days.

    I wish the market was consistent with the rhetoric on this forum, but it’s not. The facts are there for all to see. I also don’t like it. It really pisses me off that I read in the media how ‘ housing is down’ and it’s a buyers market, etc. and so forth.

    This does not bear out for lots of properties in perferred communities. I think real estate agents know it too, and see how houses sell at asking or maybe just 5% below. Nice houses in nice places.

    I would love to see slow and no home sales in River Edge. I would love to see prices dive. I would love to see River Edge mirror South Orange (in market plunging). If you look, see the factual record (not the rhetoric, the facts) you’ll see it just ain’t so.

  76. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Gary you gotta be loving this line “What they don’t realize is, in an oversupplied market, the next offer is for less.”

  77. A.West says:

    Based on listing prices, I’d guess that home values went up in Warren, NJ from last year, at least for high-end homes. Seems crazy, but is it possible that Wall st. bailouts and low interest rates are boosting high-end (>$1mn) home prices?

    In my own area , someone managed to lose at least $130k between 9/08 to 1/11. Still above the 2002 price though.
    http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/4-Mcmanus-Dr-Bridgewater-NJ-08807/39865009_zpid/

  78. JJ says:

    case shiller compares same homes being sold over time. overall prices going up means nothing. For instance a 100 million dollar hampton home sells in 2011 in one town. It would appear average prices in that town went way up since 2010. It did not.

  79. Happy Renter says:

    [73] From the MarketWatch article …

    “Remember Japan’s ‘zombie banks’? These were the financial institutions that haunted that country’s economic recovery after the 1990 crash. They staggered on with huge losses they could never repay — the walking dead.

    Here in America we have ‘zombie homeowners.’ Millions of them. According to Zillow, a record 16.3 million families are upside-down on their home loans. Sixteen million! And many are a long way upside-down. Their homes may never be worth as much as their mortgage. But they are hemorrhaging cash to pay the nut every month.

    Recovery? What recovery? This looks a bit like a depression to me.”

    Now I understand the spike in references to “zombies” on the firearms forums.

    But Brig-on-Hackensack is a zombie-free zone, apparently …

  80. 3b says:

    #75/&76 You guys are good. Brigadoon on Hackensack; I am liking that.

  81. JJ says:

    Household Income River Edge NJ
    Less than $10,000 3%
    $10,000 to $14,999 3%
    $15,000 to $24,999 8%
    $25,000 to $34,999 7%
    $35,000 to $49,999 15%
    $50,000 to $74,999 18%
    $75,000 to $99,999 17%
    $100,000 to $149,999 16%
    $150,000 to $199,999 8%
    $200,000 or more 6%

  82. JJ says:

    It is a full blown recovery, I have found an actual job opening.

    Server
    The Original Soupman – New York, New York
    Posted on Monday, 9 May 2011

    How Good is Your “No Soup For You” Impression?

    Job for you? We’re looking for a few talented actors who can embody the spirit and persona of the legendary character who made Seinfeld famous – and are interested in working in one of our Original SoupMan restaurants. We can teach you to ladle our magnificent soup, but we can’t teach the gift of Stanislavksi-inspired orneriness. If you’re a male between 30 and 60, with dark hair, an average build, and Al-like physical qualities, contact us at originalsoupman1@gmail.com

  83. JJ says:

    So true, Shrek for saving Fiona got his swamp house for free, so he had no mortgage. But however, since it was swampland I would have to say he also could be considered underwater.

    3b says:
    May 9, 2011 at 1:08 pm

    #73 Except in River Edge, the place where Shrek and Fiona live.
    The new name is North Brigadoon, on the Rivers Edge.

  84. 3b says:

    #79 Jets: It is s so. And as far as inventory, there is a record amount of it this year. The Realtor must be blowing smoke up you know where. There are over seventy house for sale in town right now. And I suspect that local Realtors might be concerned with how much inventory there is (oh and there is more coming). There is lots of inventory in the 300k to 400k range, and alot of it is in decent shape. Far cry when POS Capes and Colonials were selling for 500K. There are also several listings for under 300K, unheard of a few years ago.

    OH and FYI, nice enough town, but way over rated, and over taxed, with the funding issue still to be resolved, and all the uncertainity that brings.

  85. A.West says:

    Jets,
    You can’t buy the median home. The best houses in the best places allways sell for more than you’ll want to pay, and the worst houses in the worst places will sell for less, but you won’t want it.
    Sellers don’t pay much attention to offers more than 10% below their ask. If their list is unrealistic, the house will sit and not sell. Best to ignore those until their list comes within 10% of what you’re willing to offer. But after they drop their list price, they typically want to start over and remarket the place to everyone, not you, who insulted them with your low offer. Its like a girl in a bar – you walked up and instead of making smalltalk and buying her a drink, you just said, “hey, you wanna fcuk”?

    Here’s an example of a house that’s been “for sale” for nearly 2 years, at unrealistic prices for most of the time. Located near Sas3, I think. With recent price drop, it’s finally within 10% of market value and will probably sell.
    http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/11-Ridge-Rd-Green-Brook-NJ-08812/39883935_zpid/#{scid=hdp-site-map-bubble-address}

    To sum it up, big lowballs only work when seller has to sell, and nobody else is making an offer.

  86. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    this Brigadoon on Hackensack talk is strangely familiar

  87. 250k says:

    Jets12,

    I sort of see where you are coming from as I follow the original Brig as well as Summit, Cranford and Millburn markets. The problem is, even though I would argue these are relatively healthy markets, even I would be hard pressed to show that prices are actually up in 2011 vs 2010.

    What I do see in these markets is limited quality inventory. When something solid comes on the market, it goes under contract very quickly and at the asking price or sometimes even above the ask. Prices are still very high. HOWEVER, on the rare occasion when I see a home sale that had a previous sale between 2005 and 2009, I absolutely do see a price drop. Its not always very large but it is a drop. I have not seen any 2011 sales with previous sales in 2010 but I suspect that the 2011 sales in River Edge for the months you are comparing are simply homes of higher median value than what was selling in 2010.

    If you really want to present compelling evidence that prices are up, you need to compare sales on the same home turning over assuming it did not involve a significant renovation. For all I know, the median sale price in the Brig is up in 2011 vs 2010 also but I still would not believe for a second that was not a result of the price points being different from one year to the next.

  88. Libtard in the City says:

    I can relate just a little to Jets12. Montclair seemed to be immune until the Multifamily across the street from mine sold for close to $100,000 less than I thought it was worth. For a while there, it appeared we were different. Then last year occurred. Jets12, if things are that peachy over in Upper Hackensack-On-The-Passaic, just weight a year or two. No place is immune. Not even in the two towns where I currently own homes.

    Stu

  89. Libtard in the City says:

    wait, not weight. Too damn busy to even think, let alone proofread.

  90. Kettle1^2 says:

    Portugal opens inquiry into rating agencies

    Portuguese authorities have opened a criminal inquiry into three international credit rating agencies following a complaint, the Attorney General’s office said Monday.

    The inquiry is based on a complaint filed last month by four Portuguese academics, an official with the Attorney General’s office said on condition of anonymity, in keeping with departmental regulations.

    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/report-portugal-investigates-rating-agencies-170033476.html

    -Need more popcorn

  91. 3b says:

    #92 Libtard: I do not know what Jets is talking about. We are seeing those declines now in RE. Houses that would have been snapped up at 500K during the bubble, now priced in the high 3’slow 4’s sitting; with the 12 k a year tax bill of course.

  92. No one will be spared. No one.

  93. Libtard in the City says:

    I saw it for a while in Montclair 3b, really. I’m guessing that his window of searching for a home has been short (like 3 months). I’m guessing that by the Fall, he’ll see the price drops he is denying. Most of us here are probably right. He’s probably looking only at the best, most up to date homes. The fixer uppers are where you really see the price drops first. Although I’m sure it eventually will make it to the better stock, but perhaps not as drastically.

    When we bought our home this past Winter in Glen Ridge, the spreadsheets I created containing the sales for the past two years didn’t show much of a downward trend either. Of course, the POS homes were sitting rotting and the better stock was still going for close to the same prices they were going for back in 2008 and 2009. The real price drops were clearly evident in the non-usable sales and the crap stock that eventually got priced so low that someone (like me) swooped in since it represented real value compared to the recently renovated homes. I swear, we are almost done with our renovation work and we could easily flip it at a profit. Unfortunately, we might not be able to find another home with equal value to move into which is our deterrent.

  94. JJ says:

    1 out of 100 girls will respond yes to that situation. Ask 50 Friday and 50 Saturday and you will have a 100% success ratio. Nothing wrong with cutting to the chase. But be prepared for a smack down 99 times to get one winner.

    A.West says:
    May 9, 2011 at 1:46 pm

    Jets,
    You can’t buy the median home. The best houses in the best places allways sell for more than you’ll want to pay, and the worst houses in the worst places will sell for less, but you won’t want it.
    Sellers don’t pay much attention to offers more than 10% below their ask. If their list is unrealistic, the house will sit and not sell. Best to ignore those until their list comes within 10% of what you’re willing to offer. But after they drop their list price, they typically want to start over and remarket the place to everyone, not you, who insulted them with your low offer. Its like a girl in a bar – you walked up and instead of making smalltalk and buying her a drink, you just said, “hey, you wanna fcuk”?

  95. rather not say says:

    River Edge is not Utopia! Its a DUMP!! Stinky fish market, fat bloast crumb boy cops, Spanish pretending to be Italians, A DUMP!!! Its bad, trust me, bad!!

  96. Kettle1^2 says:

    Clot,

    As a gambling man i think mid June to mid July of this year could get interesting. Embrace the chaos!

  97. Kettle1^2 says:

    Rather,

    Didnt you just describe most of NJ?

  98. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Ket let the new Boyaah rant, it has been too long since we had an irrational poster that wasn’t a bot

  99. Kettle1^2 says:

    Sorry pain :(

  100. scribe says:

    from wallst24/7

    #
    2:48p
    BREAKING
    FDIC says Sheila Bair to leave July 8

  101. chicagofinance says:

    come on man…..you are in the middle of the prime selling season….one or more of the “sales” (i.e. under contract) will crap out…..go approach one of those owners and see whether they get 5% off ask….a seller sitting in June/July ex-post a crapped out transfer is going to have a different demeanor…..

    BTW – buying a home around here is messy; you want a deal? show some balls and some dirty fingernails…..

    Jets12 says:
    May 9, 2011 at 1:24 pm
    Lots of talk. ZERO, absolutely no substance countering the fact and truth that median home price is higher in 2011 in River Edge, NJ than it was in 2010. I wish it were not true but that is the fact.

    I read these comments here and they simply are disconnected and disengaged from the facts on the ground in the real world. The comments here are not consistent with the facts and history. I am talking about the history of March 2011, February 2011, etc. I am trying to buy in River Edge myself, but the homes I aim for seem to sell at asking or no more than 5% below asking, and do so in less than 90 days.

  102. Barbara says:

    I’ve got a sitch I want to run by you all. There’s a house, an estate that has been rotting for 1 1/2 years. Four sibblings, but Big Sis is in charge and won’t deal. We made an offer last Oct with a 20% haircut basing it on recent sales, and the work that the house needed which is substantial. We went it tossing the inspection and mortgage contingency. Even the realtor thought it was a good offer (ditching the inspection means that if anything falls through, there won’t be dirty laundry for any new seller to see since full disclosure is the law). There have been no offers but ours since. I found the other siblings on FB. I want to contact him and have a direct conversation about the property. Its already a long shot because according to our realtor, Big Sis is quite stubborn, so in a way I feel like I have nothing to lose. I could let it continue to rot but I;m up against a personality more than a market with this one. I don’t even think her siblings are aware that there was a cash offer made. Maybe stirring the pot would work in our favor….or not. Thoughts?

  103. Barbara says:

    Correction re the inspection “new BUYER” not “new seller”

  104. Happy Renter says:

    While it may be a relative newcomer to the ranks of hoity-toity land, I will note that Brigadoon-on-Hackensack beats out both Brigadoon and Upper Hackensack-On-The-Passaic for the cachet of proximity to North Bergen:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3tzSmx_CMg

    I don’t know where you be from, but I be from Brigadoon-on-Hackensack, son!

  105. JJ says:

    You may not get home, but I love stirring the pot. Funny today I got a call on a low ball offer I made in December, guess what they are now considering it. I said you had me at hello in December but the love has faded. Sorry.

    Barbara says:
    May 9, 2011 at 3:29 pm

    I’ve got a sitch I want to run by you all. There’s a house, an estate that has been rotting for 1 1/2 years. Four sibblings, but Big Sis is in charge and won’t deal. We made an offer last Oct with a 20% haircut basing it on recent sales, and the work that the house needed which is substantial. We went it tossing the inspection and mortgage contingency. Even the realtor thought it was a good offer (ditching the inspection means that if anything falls through, there won’t be dirty laundry for any new seller to see since full disclosure is the law). There have been no offers but ours since. I found the other siblings on FB. I want to contact him and have a direct conversation about the property. Its already a long shot because according to our realtor, Big Sis is quite stubborn, so in a way I feel like I have nothing to lose. I could let it continue to rot but I;m up against a personality more than a market with this one. I don’t even think her siblings are aware that there was a cash offer made. Maybe stirring the pot would work in our favor….or not. Thoughts?

  106. 30 Year Realtor says:

    Jets – I gave you the median for 09,10 and 11 to date. The stats don’t add up to your conclusion. The example I posted as a comp killer gives an accurate demonstration of what has happened in the River Edge market.

    You are correct about River Edge holding up better than many communities. River Edge is solid upper middle Bergen County and the extreme depreciation has been in the low and high end markets. If you compare River Edge to towns like Emerson, Paramus, Oradell, etc… you will see similar stats.

    Buying is not easy to rationalize when you have your eyes open. I cannot recall anyone on this board claim that sellers are rolling over due to the bad market. Overpriced sellers eventually become ripe. Takes a bit of lucky timing to catch the one’s that are ready to cut loose. Often after a significant price reduction the timing is best, sometimes even at or close to the reduced list. This may have been what happened on your offers that were flatly rejected or they were new listings.

    We are still in a depreciating and will be for sometime. Tough to pull the trigger when you can’t get tomorrow’s price today. Do you have a compelling reason to buy?

  107. scribe says:

    Barbara,

    Why not? would be my reaction.

    But why would you want this one house that much if it’s a fixer-upper?

  108. Barbara says:

    Gator, you have mail (s). :)

  109. Barbara says:

    scribe,
    its a park front historic house with great details. Most houses like it had the details ripped out in the 70s and 80s. I want a fixer so that the $$ I put in will be to my taste. I don’t feel like paying 60k more for someone’s idea of classy (cheap cherry cabinets and beige ceramic tile!). KWIM?

  110. Barbara says:

    JJ,
    My October offer is still good.

  111. scribe says:

    what is KWIM?

    So, if you really want this house, I would say go ahead and let the siblings know of your interest. Sounds like you have nothing to lose if it’s been that long and Sis hasn’t responded to you.

  112. Barbara says:

    ‘know what I mean”

  113. rather not say says:

    thanks for letting me rant !!!! I really could go off big time, this was mild. I do appreciate it, and lets all have a toast to the dough boys of blue in NJ!!!

  114. prtraders2000 says:

    Everytime I see those household income numbers I scratch my head. I make more than 70% of those in Riveredge, but I can barely afford an average lifestyle in a below average town. I guess I need to see the average for a family. Or the average for those that moved to a particlular town over the last 5 years. I’m sure they are quite different.

  115. 4c says:

    Barbara, jets, etc

    perhaps i am missing something but if the sellers are willing to wait for a couple of months, why would the accept your lowball offer. Wouldn’t they lower their asking price first? With a lower asking price they might attract more interest and a higher offer than yours.

    Don’t get me wrong I am looking to buy too and that’s how I always think about lowballs. Wait for them to come down first.

  116. scribe says:

    Why does Sis outrank the other siblings? executor of the estate? or is it that the others are geographically distant so she’s handling this part of things?

  117. scribe (104)-

    Sheilababy can kiss my white ass.

  118. Barbara says:

    4c,
    you are correct, but it only applies when you are dealing with logical people. She has already had two price reductions and is still about 80k out of the ballpark. I’m wondering if brother with student loan debt and two kids knows about the cash offer in October. Again, its a long shot.

  119. scribe says:

    Where is grim? Working on his new house?

    I think we should all throw a surprise party for Grim at his new digs.

    We should all bring greenery to plant so in the future he will remember each one of us by a specific tree grown tall.

    Or, in the alternative, bottles of booze.

  120. Barbara says:

    121.
    She is actually in Boston, sibs are closer. My realtor (listing agent is in the same brokerage) hinted that she’s a bossy gal that can’t be told and I guess maybe the sibs fall in line. The house deed is in all of their names so not sure about the executor title.

  121. JJ says:

    So is mine, I just price adjust it towards market conditions.

    Barbara says:
    May 9, 2011 at 3:47 pm

    JJ,
    My October offer is still good.

  122. 4c says:

    Student loan brother can understand that they need to lower asking if he does not hear of any offer. Also getting into a mess of siblings is not pleasant and rarely constructive. It all depends if you want to buy NOW and this particular place. Imho no house is unique and historical details can always be added.

  123. The one thing you can count on is that about 95% of the sellers in the current market are both illogical and pricing (albeit in vain) in order to correct some financial calamity in their lives. That’s why they’re unable to meet the market at levels that would drive even a trickle of sales.

    This will only end one way. It may take a while, and the sellers may succumb kicking and screaming…but the correction will occur. Until such time, the market remains broken and will not clear.

  124. I once managed to turn a whole crew of siblings against each other in an estate situation.

    The property involved included a lot of land. They all ended up filing partition suits against each other, and I bought them out one by one.

    Dumb shits. That was the most fun I ever had doing RE.

  125. JJ says:

    Just don’t meet someone who carries a grudge like me.

    Hobo With a Shotgun says:
    May 9, 2011 at 4:34 pm

    I once managed to turn a whole crew of siblings against each other in an estate situation.

    The property involved included a lot of land. They all ended up filing partition suits against each other, and I bought them out one by one.

    Dumb shits. That was the most fun I ever had doing RE.

  126. Barbara says:

    4c.
    Historical details really can’t be added. To retro fit a bunch of historic doors with hardware requires a master carpenter, and they don;t come cheap. Also, good luck finding those doors. Its not easy. These houses have settled, nothing is square. Also, most wood moldings were cut at an angle so as to expose the busy graining…but that watsed a lot of lumber. They do not cut lumber like that any more. You can spend months trying to track down a home’s worth of reclaimed moldings and you may not be successful. Lastly, pulling molding off to replace often leads to extensive damage to the plaster. It literally becomes a money pit.

  127. Juice Box says:

    re: # 128 – “to correct some financial calamity” Your first loss is always your best. As Gary would say Tick, Tick, Tick sellers.

  128. Barbara says:

    When I walk into a historic home and I see the new oak staircase, its jumps out like body glitter on your grandma. Its never done well. Never.

  129. 4c says:

    I was talking about a mantle and a molding here and there, someone I know bought a 19th cent house and replaced moldings with plastic (?) ones not costly. If you care about grain then a house can quickly become unique. Interestingly so, detailed homes can be cheap as they rarely change hands and need a lot of upkeep and updating. good luck

  130. grim says:

    We should all bring greenery to plant so in the future he will remember each one of us by a specific tree grown tall.

    We felled 20 trees on Saturday, and still no room for trees!

  131. Essex says:

    128. In fact sitting tight and simply enjoying life (and making payments) is the only option. Remembering what the Good Book says (Millionaire Next Door). Most high net worth people buy one house that they can afford in a decent neighborhood in a low consumption town (an oxymoron in New Jersey I know) and simply wait to die. Meanwhile, education is a priority and cars/toys are not. Well two out of three aint bad.

  132. scribe says:

    grim is a lumberjack?

    what is this house like?

  133. A.West says:

    110, 128, (30yr, Hobo)
    Both good posts. Most list prices are from people wishing that someone else will somehow rescue them from reality. Eventually, some of them will capitulate to reality. Some will disappear into repo/default hades.

    The house I bought had a major soap opera behind the scenes. Sellers revolved through four realtors, apparently blaming them for their failure to sell at dreamland prices. Each one in turn cut the list price by about $100k. We happened to see it at an open house, about a year into the saga, after it had already been dropped 3 times, then we got called and solicited for a “best an final offer”. Our offer was “no thanks”, and we assumed it got sold. It was in a town we hadn’t focused on, but the house and land was far superior to the other ones we’d been looking at. We remembered it when it showed up on MLS three months later, now via realtor number four, lower price, it was already Fall and fewer people were looking. It was finally close to an attractive price, so we sent in our bid. Seller had reached the psychological turning point and was ready to move on with life, and her realtor thought so too, so we worked out a deal. I’m sure seller would have refused this price under all prior realtors, even their lawyer was complaining about them “giving away” the home.

    Conclusion: buying a house at a good price requires having the patience to sift through a lot of bad deals, and waiting for the right situation to materialize.

  134. Barbara says:

    Everyone knows that people are pricing their houses based on personal debt/2nd mortgages. This was a rare situation where a house I liked is technically free and clear, but now I’m expected to bail out little brother’s student loan debt, get big brother that outboard motor boat he’s been dreaming of and big sis her gastric bypass.
    Screw that.

  135. Barbara says:

    I’m a little bitter.

  136. Shore Guy says:

    Grim’s a lumberjack but he’s okay
    He sleeps all night
    And he works all day

  137. babs (139)-

    There are many ways of pricing houses. The “Personal Needs Method” is one of them.

    However, this method fails 100% of the time.

  138. babs (140)-

    Try looking for a house that actually exists, is for sale and not encumbered with debt and stupidity.

  139. babs (140)-

    I own the house that you’re looking for. It’s in the Annandale historical district, built 1870, still has virtually all its original “stuff” and is on a fenced double lot (1/2 acre).

    There are days when I would either burn this place down or walk away. I’d say that’s about 70% of the time.

  140. I once knew a lumberjack named Grim:
    Hairy-chested, handsome and slim.
    While sawing his lumber, he started to slumber
    The saw slipped, now his member’s a quim.

  141. grim says:

    I’m done with homeownership and it has only been a week.

    I couldn’t burn money this fast.

  142. 3b says:

    #110You are correct about River Edge holding up better than many communities. River Edge is solid upper middle Bergen County…………….

    Scrath beneath the surface, and all is not as it may seem.

  143. Al Mossberg says:

    146.

    Grim,

    LMAO. What happened? Invest in tomato plants instead. You can have my over taxed sh_tbox if you want.

  144. Pat says:

    river edge dough guy: can we get a pic here?

    grammar person: pls lay off re jj’s grammar and syntax as you have naively deserted your poetic soul in a dry stream bed among broken glass and Barbie heads causing – somewhere in the universe – a gunslinger to search for the next beam, blocked by your darkened blinders.

    jb: can we get a pic here? ;)

  145. Barbara says:

    3b

    Is River’s Edge NJ’s Twin Peaks? Best cherry pie in all the land?

  146. still_looking says:

    146 grim

    LOL…. Ha! Wanna nice house with a pool??? Talk about burning money.. and now it looks like the dishwasher is on the fritz… FML.

    pruned the weeping cherry tree, dug up a garbage bag full of poison ivy plants and vines (and now have it on both wrists – I wore gloves- and my face!) Just poured the concrete to make concrete garden benches, and still have to prep land for eight grape vines/plants that I am looking to put in. We still have to remove one evergreen in the same spot….

    I go to work to relax!

    sl

  147. relo says:

    149: Pat,

    Go then there are other worlds than this.

    150:Barb,

    Cherry pie, standing offers to JJ? What did I miss?

    I have laughed out loud on several occasions re: River Edge comments. Mostly general principles though as while I’ve lived in several BC towns in my life I know nothing about it. I suspect many of the comments apply to most of these locales. I also suspect I need to get out more.

  148. Barbara says:

    144. Hobo
    Your house sounds lovely. I might want to burn it down too, if I was way underwater, but knowing myself I would be too in love and not able to let go. I could rationalize staying in the underwater house that I love, but I can’t rationalize overpaying from the outset. I’m betting your house has fared better than most post 40s-50s tract homes.

  149. Barbara says:

    relo
    just another day on the rere.

  150. Fabius Maximus says:

    #171 Still

    Mrs Fabius tip for poison Ivy is disposable painters coveralls from HD or lowes and tape the gloves to the wrists. The coveralls rip straight off and go into the bag.

    She wasn’t alergic as a kid, but got a bad dose 80% of legs and belly when she was 7 months pregnent with No 2. The ER couldn’t give her a shot so she was left with the washes and creams.

  151. cobbler says:

    sl[151]
    Concrete garden benches may not feel like a swell idea 5 years from now – and once the concrete sets you need a crane or a jackhammer to remove them (and your garbage hauler would want you to get a dumpster from them – unless you crush it into gravel and put into your regular garbage 5 lbs at a time for 2 years). I have a former foundation of the basketball pole laying around for 2 years waiting till we get a dumpster for some renovation project, we dug it up as the pole rusted away.

  152. still_looking says:

    Fab,

    Thanks for the poison ivy tips… I’m usually more careful, but there’s an unbelievable amount of it here… Pardon me while I scratch…..

    sl

  153. still_looking says:

    Cobb,

    There are small concrete benches with two legs and a top piece. Nothing as elaborate as what you are describing. I am making them with molds. Still waiting for the planter mold to get here… (sorry, I can’t stand the fake fiberglass, plastic pseudo-concrete looking planters…)

    sl

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