Princetons to merge – A new trend for NJ?

From Bloomberg:

Two Princeton Towns in New Jersey Vote in Favor of Consolidation

Voters in the two New Jersey towns that share the Princeton name with the Ivy League university approved a ballot measure to merge.

The proposal to combine the 1.9-square-mile Princeton Borough, which includes the downtown shopping and dining area, and the surrounding 16.6-square-mile Princeton Township passed in the township with 3,542 in favor and 604 against, and in the borough with 1,238 for and 828 against, according to unofficial results posted on Mercer County’s website.

Governor Chris Christie, a first-term Republican, endorsed the plan, offering to pay 20 percent of the total $1.7 million cost. The towns had rejected at least three earlier consolidation attempts, most recently in 1996.

Christie, who took office in 2010, is urging New Jersey’s 566 municipalities to combine operations to help stem growth in property-tax bills, the highest in the U.S. Governors in Ohio and Pennsylvania are asking local officials to do the same. Property-tax collections, the main income source for municipalities, dropped 1.2 percent, to $88.5 billion, in the second quarter from a year earlier, the third-straight decline, the U.S. Census Bureau reported in September.

The borough, with about 12,300 residents, has a median home value of $619,700 and household income of $106,551. The township, with about 16,300 people, has a median home value of $760,900 and household income is $105,662, according to data from the municipalities.

A group called Preserve Our Historic Borough argued that a forecast $3.1 million in annual savings was overestimated by at least $1 million. Unite Princeton disagreed, saying the towns were aligned culturally and economically, and would never realize such savings on their own.

Princeton borough has $51 million of debt outstanding, while the township has $56.1 million, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Standard & Poor’s rates the borough AA+, the second-highest grade, and the township its top AAA.

The two towns share more than a dozen services including animal control, solid waste and fire. They have their own police departments, each with 30 sworn personnel. In both cases, police is the largest cost, $3.5 million in the borough and $3.8 million in the township, according to the center’s report. Their 2010 budgets combined totaled $65.1 million.

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190 Responses to Princetons to merge – A new trend for NJ?

  1. grim says:

    From the Star Ledger:

    Princeton Borough, Township approve question to merge towns

    In the effort to merge the two Princetons, the fourth time’s the charm.

    Princeton Borough and Princeton Township will combine, marking the first time New Jersey will lose a municipality since 1997.

    With voter approval from both Princetons needed, the merger was easily approved today in the township, 3,542 to 604, and by a tighter margin — 1,238 to 828 — in the borough.

    The result was historic because voters in a state that has long cherished “home rule” have regularly rejected efforts to consolidate — including three failed attempts in the Princetons since 1953.

    Supporters of merging towns and sharing services, including Gov. Chris Christie, say such consolidations could bring down property taxes across the state.

    “Princeton decided it wanted to be a leader tonight,” said Princeton Township Mayor Chad Goerner. “Reason over fear won out when it came to the polls.”

    Goerner said he believes the Princetons “laid out the template” for other towns that may want to merge. The Princetons are one of 22 New Jersey “doughnut towns” where one town completely surrounds another. The state currently has 566 municipalities.

  2. Confused in NJ says:


  3. grim says:

    From the NY Times:

    A Dream of Homeownership, Still Beyond Reach

    LIKE many young married people, Steve and Logan Kinney dream of owning a home. So after several years of diligent saving, the couple, both teachers, scoured the listings in Boerum Hill, the leafy Brooklyn neighborhood where they rented. But before long, they realized that home ownership would require living within the four walls of a studio. And even that was a stretch.

    “From what I’ve been told from TV, you are supposed to get a house,” said Mr. Kinney, 27, referring to the progression of life after marriage. “And then I get to sit in a nice chair.”

    So they kept a sense of humor and broadened their search to seemingly more affordable areas: Jersey City, the Rockaways in Queens and neighborhoods farther out in Brooklyn. Their jobs at opposite ends of the city — she teaches first graders in Harlem, while he works in Rockaway Park — further complicated their search. But the real challenge was their price range: with a budget of only $250,000, their quest was over shortly after it began.

    Considering the city where they live, the Kinneys’ predicament is not unusual. Yes, prices have tumbled 32 percent from their peaks, according to Fiserv Case-Shiller, and housing is now more affordable across the nation. But the couple lives in one of those places where the crash seemed to play out only on the nightly news. Here, gravity-defying ZIP codes rule the land, pushing home ownership out of reach for everyone but the most affluent.

    In fact, prices in several metropolitan areas — including New York, Los Angeles and Boston — will end up being higher than their prebubble levels, at least relative to local income, said David Stiff, an economist at Fiserv Case-Shiller, which tracks the real estate market. There are a few reasons, but one of the main drivers is the work force: these areas develop pools of specialized, highly compensated employees. Think of Silicon Valley in Northern California, the financial industry in New York or the biotechnology sector in Boston.

    “When that industry booms, it drives up home prices for everyone,” Mr. Stiff said. “Through each boom cycle, the price levels relative to income at the end of the cycle will be higher than at the beginning, so you get a ratcheting effect of unaffordability.”

    And even though lower- and middle-income households are not directly competing with the wealthier workers for housing, they are still affected. “Each step of the way they are pushing prices up out to my market,” he added. “So in many instances, the only option is an extremely long commute.”

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  5. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  6. Mike says:

    Good Morning Funnel

  7. Mike says:

    No. 4 Soozie Orman got competition. Spamster or will Grim become a star?

  8. Westjester says:

    I’d expect someone with aspirations to write to at least display a command of the language in such a post.

  9. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Italian 10 year over 7 % (7.36) , another roller coaster day in the world markets. Todays color is red for now, by lunch who knows.

  10. Mikeinwaiting says:

    “6:36 AM The president of SIPC says customers of MF Global (MFGLQ.PK) may have to share funds “pro “rata” if missing money from some accounts doesn’t turn up. Sharing losses would leave all MF commodity clients with less than 100% of their funds. He notes that SIPC can only compensate securities customers for missing cash, it can’t replace funds for commodity customers.”

    Where is John C…………………………….

  11. serenity now says:

    I am suprised more towns have not made this move to combine.

  12. Shore Guy says:

    It is about time. There are too many municipalities. Having an excess number of municipalities just allows more people to be “in charge.” Loch Arbour and Tetterboro as independent political entities?

  13. yo says:

    Need buying opportunities.Started buying at S&P 1260 as it goes down ,in Aug.Now at 1275 time to sell.Wait for Italy to give me the 1100 opportunity.Greece is old story.

  14. freedy says:

    Riveredge and Oradell merge. Closter /Norwood . Tenafly/Creeskill

    Good luck

  15. Beavis and Butthead. Perfect together.

  16. Would you like extra Parmesan and black pepper on your stench of death, sir?

  17. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (11) serenity

    This is jersey, they can’t stand each other.

    I mean really, who wants to merge with garwood?

  18. Neanderthal Economist says:

    “Through each boom cycle, the price levels relative to income at the end of the cycle will be higher than at the beginning, so you get a ratcheting effect of unaffordability.”
    This hits the nail on the head, the ratcheting up of unafordability to go along with the increasing income inequality.

  19. Neanderthal Economist says:

    Grim, Myrina is part of ‘some financial communities’ and would like to ‘request you’ something. How do you say no to that?

  20. Shore Guy says:

    In one stretch of the coast/bay area, here are some places that belong together:

    Seaside Heights and Seaside Park

    Point Beach and Boro

    Toms River, South Toms River, Beachwood, Pine Beach

    Lake Como and Belmar

    Spring Lake and Sea Girt

    Loch Arbour, Interlaken et al.

    Aberdeen and Matawan

    Union Beach and Keansburg

    Atlantic Highlands and Highlands

    Ocean Gate and Berkeley Twp.

    Manasquan and Brielle

    For that matter Bay Head and Mantoloking could merge with no ill effect.

  21. freedy, only the little people play by the rules.

  22. Juice Box says:

    SIPC isn’t the Judge. Gasparino says Corzine nearly bust.

  23. Neanderthal Economist says:

    Shore, toms river is one of the biggest towns in the state. You would actually merge them to make them bigger?

  24. Shore Guy says:

    Those other towns are small and they share a school district. They have a community of interest. They could merge without missing a beat, just a couple of mayors and police chiefs.

  25. Barbara says:

    Have the makeshift taco tables opened on Nassau street? It’s just a matter of time.

  26. Shore Guy says:

    Interesting state of affairs:

    TRENTON — The state’s largest teachers union said Monday it would support a streamlined process to fire ineffective tenured teachers, but it also unveiled a package of proposals that would require a considerable increase in funding for public schools.


  27. Shore Guy says:

    Interesting state of affairs:

    TRENTON — The state’s largest teachers union said Monday it would support a streamlined process to fire ineffective tenured teachers, but it also unveiled a package of proposals that would require a considerable increase in funding for public schools.


  28. The Original NJ Expat says:

    #3 grim – Beauty. Our teachers are gettin’ their own learnin’ from the TEE-VEE.

    LIKE many young married people, Steve and Logan Kinney dream of owning a home. So after several years of diligent saving, the couple, both teachers, scoured the listings in Boerum Hill, the leafy Brooklyn neighborhood where they rented. But before long, they realized that home ownership would require living within the four walls of a studio. And even that was a stretch.

    “From what I’ve been told from TV, you are supposed to get a house,”

  29. NJCoast says:

    Loch arbour would love to merge with Allenhurst and is trying really hard to do so. The problem is the school formula, Loch Arbour is part of the Ocean Township school system and pays according to assessed home values, no matter how many kids use the school. Allenhurst and Interlaken are sending districts to Asbury Park and pay Asbury on a per student tuition basis. Since Allenhurst is mostly older or summer people they like the formula just fine, only 1 or 2 use the school. Allenhurst and Interlaken are afraid if either merge with Loch Arbour they’ll get stuck with the Loch Arbour school formula which would at the least double their property taxes. Consolidation would only mean more education tax dollars to be collected and wasted.

  30. funnelcloud says:

    Morning Mike I’m late today

  31. funnelcloud says:

    Article in todays Daily record says it will take 52 years to clear NJ’s forclosure inventory under todays regs and 57yrs for NY
    Our great grandchildren may still have hope

  32. gary says:

    I believe Glen Rock and Paterson should merge!

  33. The Original NJ Expat says:

    #33 gary – Merge Bloomfield and Newark, or Bloomfield and Glen Ridge. GR – pick your poison.

  34. Shore Guy says:

    I suspect that one could eliminate over half of NJ’s municipalities with little ill effect, other than reducing graft and expenses.

  35. The Original NJ Expat says:

    I see a possibility for a Diplomacy/Risk type board game: NJ Municipal Collapse – Combine and run down municipalities. Whoever captures the most state aid wins! Game is over when the State treasury’s credit lines are exhausted. Count up your unionized teachers and police…

  36. Shore Guy says:


    In the final analysis, it all comes down to money. I have to believe that the towns who send to AP would love to get out of that contract.

  37. Shore Guy says:

    “Game is over when the State treasury’s credit lines are exhausted.”

    The game can never end, the players will just keep raising taxes in order to keep playing and accumulating retirement property in low-tax states.

  38. Shore Guy says:

    Well, time to go to work. Please solve the problems of NJ while I am out shoveling cash to Obama, so he can distribute it to someone who dererves it more than I.

  39. JJ says:

    “From what I’ve been told from TV, you are supposed to get a house,” said Mr. Kinney, 27, referring to the progression of life after marriage. “And then I get to sit in a nice chair.”

    Why are 27 year olds looking for houses to begin with? I dated a 27 year old new york city school teacher once. On that salary she lived at home in her parents house in Queens had a used Mazda Miata and the commute to work each day, buying lunch each day and clothes for work and chiping at home ate over 100% of her salary. I was literally making 43K a year and I was the rich one paying on dates and I only had a cheap one bedroom in Queens and a car with 110K miles. WTF do these couples think at that age and at that income they can afford a house in a trendy brooklyn nieghborhood, even more so why are they even married, they should both be sponging off mommy and daddy unil they have enough cash to get married.

  40. 3B says:

    #14 freddy: Oradell will never merge with River Edge unless forced. RE has large apartment rental complexes, Oradell has almost none. The residents of Oradell would go ballistic; Oradell is already trying to distance itself from River Edge.

  41. 3B says:

    #30 NJ: That is the current battle now between River Edge and Oradell. School funding is based on assessed property; Oradell is assessed higher, yet River Edge sends almost 350 more students to the district. Oradell has been fighting to have the formula changed to a per pupil basis. River Edge is horrified by the thought, as taxes would increase dramatically in an already heavily taxed town. The matter is currently with the Dept of Education. Oradell plans to fight this all the way, if the Dept of Education rules against their petition.

  42. 3B says:

    #40 JJ: HGTV Told him he is supposed to get one. and he needs a home office, and his wife need a home office.

  43. NJCoast says:

    #37 Shore-

    Why would the sending districts love to get out of the Asbury Park contract?? It is a sweetheart deal. They only pay tuition for the students they send. Nobody uses the school and there are only a handful of kids year round in the town and they attend religious schools or they can attend Deal School FREE because it is part of the NJ Choice School program. Besides the cost of the courtesy bus that drives kids to their private schools, their education tax is ZERO. If your kids were grown or you had a summer house there wouldn’t you love this arrangement?

  44. JJ says:

    good story about how average american who bought a house to get 8k tax credit has lost double that as housing continues to fall. Some cities average homes have fallen 50K since people rushed to get the 8k credit.

  45. chicagofinance says:

    Glen Rock RE would be able to play up its National Park…….good!

    gary says:
    November 9, 2011 at 8:30 am
    I believe Glen Rock and Paterson should merge!

  46. The Original NJ Expat says:

    French Bund spreads have just crossed 147 bps as the “cash bond long yet unable to hedge with CDS” crowd realizes that the Italian contagion is about to hit Paris. And unable to hedge using creative modern financial instruments, said crowd has reverted to the good old fashioned version thereof. We call it selling.


  47. chicagofinance says:

    Yeah, but imagine ANOTHER 30% YOY increase for Briggy-Upon-Hackey with its adoption!!

    3B says:
    November 9, 2011 at 9:02 am
    #30 NJ: That is the current battle now between River Edge and Oradell. School funding is based on assessed property; Oradell is assessed higher, yet River Edge sends almost 350 more students to the district. Oradell has been fighting to have the formula changed to a per pupil basis. River Edge is horrified by the thought, as taxes would increase dramatically in an already heavily taxed town. The matter is currently with the Dept of Education. Oradell plans to fight this all the way, if the Dept of Education rules against their petition.

  48. chicagofinance says:

    We’ve finally found JJ’s identity…..

    I woke from a stroke — gay!

    A hulking, beer-guzzling rugby jock suffered a stroke in a freak training accident — and woke up gay.

    Chris Birch was a straight, 266-pound Welsh bank worker who liked sports, girls and booze and was engaged to his girlfriend before the life-style-changing event.

    Now, he’s a 154-pound hairdresser who bleaches his tresses and lives with his 19-year-old boyfriend above his salon.

    “I was gay when I woke up and I still am,” he said.

    Birch, 26, was showing off before friends in a gym by doing a back flip, but he broke his neck and suffered a stroke, according to Britain’s Daily Mail.

    He was rushed to Royal Gwent Hospital in the Welsh town of Newport. His girlfriend and relatives waited for him to recover consciousness.

    “It sounds strange, but when I came around, I immediately felt different,” Birch recalled. “I wasn’t interested in women anymore. I was definitely gay.”

    Birch, who lives in the town of Ystrad Mynach, said he never experienced any gay inclinations previously.

    Researchers have reported many cases of stroke patients experiencing changes in behavior and personality, such as becoming less satisfied with their lives, losing confidence in themselves, or being easily irritated.

    But turning gay? That’s a new one.

    Birch said the change was sweeping and instantaneous.

    “Suddenly, I hated everything about my old life. I didn’t get on with my friends. I hated sport and found my job boring,” he said.

    So he underwent a transformation, quitting his job and shedding more than 100 pounds.

    He said his family and friends were shocked by his change of sexuality.

    “I think I’m happier than ever, so I don’t regret the accident,” he said.

    “I’m nothing like the old Chris now, but I wouldn’t change a thing.”

  49. gary says:

    JJ [45],

    We all got a whiff of that swindle way before it emerged. Amazing how easy it is for people to be taken. This blog collectively snickered when that con job was put into play. It just goes to prove that the masses can be had on a regular basis. Simply disguise the racket as another form and dupe the chumps yet again.

  50. George Soros says:

    How about US to merge with China to save our nation. Debt will be wiped out if we do so

  51. 3B says:

    #48 It would be devastating to the town, which is already in bad fiscal shape. I do not think ultimately Oradell will get the per pupil funding it wants (and which I believe is fair, you pay for what you use), but I do believe that in a Solomon like decision the Dept of ED/Courts will shift more of the burden onto River Edge, thereby granting tax relief to Oradell, and while River Edge will of course pay more, it won’t be as bad as shifting to a per pupil basis.

    Of course many residents seem to be in complete denial about the whole thing.

  52. NJGator says:

    Nom – this one’s for you.

    Johnny Depp starts spending more time in the US in order to avoid French taxes.

    Depp has been despairing of America’s trashy culture and violence for as long as I can remember, and France is so central to his identity as a discerning sophisticate that I assumed he would never return to the US. So when I ask if he could ever imagine living there again, his reply comes as quite a surprise.

    “Well, I kind of do. I’m between wherever I end up on location, and then the States.”

    What? Hang on a minute; why did he leave France? He makes a sour noise, part grunt, part hurrumph. “Cos France wanted a piece of me. They wanted me to become a permanent resident. Permanent residency status – which changes everything. They just want,” and he mimes peeling off notes in his palm. “Dough. Money.”

    If Depp spends more than 183 days in France, he explains indignantly, he’d have to start paying income tax. “I’m certainly not ready to give up my American citizenship. You don’t have to give up your American citizenship,” he adds sarcastically, but then he’d have to pay tax in both countries, “so you essentially work for free.”

  53. Juice Box says:

    George – problem with that idea is this only 6.0% of the total population of mainland China are members of the Party. Everyone else is a peasant, enjoy the Freedom.

  54. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [38] shore

    True dat. And on that note, look at the final line of this piece on state/muni pensions

  55. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [53] gator,

    Whaaa? A limousine liberal complaining about high taxes???? I harken back to one of Hollywood’s serendipitous accidents, the casting of Robert Shaw as Quint in Jaws. Sterling Hayden was supposed to be Quint, and filming on location had started, but Hayden had to bow out in order to avoid US taxes.

    Anticipating the Fab/schab attack, I have never maintained that the US is worst in the world for individual taxation. In fact, places like France, which tax more heavily, or places like China, with its arbitrary sense of justice, are much more dangerous for people of wealth.

    But in our zeal to punish the 1% (which won’t happen, BTW, it will be the top end of the 99 that gets it in the rear), we want to emulate France and further push people like Johnny Depp into becoming Canadians, Bahamians, or Fijians. And 35% of zero is still zero, folks.

    And on a related note, the more that OWS gains popular sympathy, the more likely that I want to be in two things: Hard assets and debt.

  56. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    I suppose Brigadoon and Mountainside could merge back together (Mountainside split from Westfield about 100 years ago), but then Rte 22 would clearly go through the middle of Westfield, and I don’t know how I feel about that.

  57. Juice Box says:

    Gator – can you explain why the taxes are so high on this gem? and would the neighbors object if I were to replace the Lion with a Lawn Boy?

  58. Linebacker U or Bend Over You? says:

    (CBS/AP) Jerry Sandusky, the one-time heir apparent to Penn State football coach Joe Paterno, told a boy’s mother in 1998 that he had showered with her son and with other boys but he wouldn’t promise to stop, according to a Pennsylvania grand jury report.

    Police in State College, Penn., listened in to two conversations Sandusky had with the mother, with her permission, after her then-11-year-old son came home with hair wet from showing with Sandusky. At the end of the second conversation, Sandusky was told he could not see the boy anymore.

    “I understand,” State College Detective Ronald Schreffler testified Sandusky said. “I was wrong. I wish I could get forgiveness. I know I won’t get it from you. I wish I were dead.”

    Former Penn State star: Paterno will be ousted
    Fans rally for Joe Paterno amid questions
    Jerry Sandusky wrote a book called “Touched”

    Sandusky — who maintains he is innocent — has since been charged with 40 criminal counts, accusing him of molesting eight young boys between 1994 and 2009.

  59. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    When you are losing the game, move the goalposts.

    This study was unusual, and even WaPo fact checker (which used it for its intended purpose, to attack GOP claims) had to acknowledge (a) that it was unusual, and (b) that the study did not come out and make a new, hard definition of small business.

    Nonetheless, in the face of arguments that tax hikes on the high earners hit small businesses, this study urges a simple solution: Change the definition of small business.

  60. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [60] redux

    And the accompanying WaPo piece, which actually calls for moving the goalposts (and WaPo has the chutzpah to wrap this as “factchecker”. To me, a factchecker isn’t entitled to decide that inconvenient facts are entitled to no weight, or as Lawrence O’Donnell said “you aren’t entitled to your own facts.”).

  61. gary says:

    Italy is too big to save, meaning its financial collapse could spell ruin for the euro as well as the global economy.

    Tick… tick… tick… tick…

  62. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [60] redux

    According to the OTA study, my solo law practice may not be a “small business” and may not even be one if I expand it.

    Rather, the OTA study suggests that I either don’t meet the threshold for a legitimate small business, or I am a misclassified worker.

    Like I said, moving the goalposts.

  63. Bystander says:


    I thought the State College police were never told of Sandusky’s indiscretions but it comes out that they knew and did nothing for years. The whole argument against Paterno is that the police were never informed. State College is pretty small. Why did the cops not watch JS more closely over the years? Rumors must have been all over the force. Crazy.

  64. hughesrep says:


    Looks like Joe Pa will get to finish out the season after covering up for a child molestor.

    Can I get Tressel back through the Big Ten Championship game?

  65. NJGator says:

    Juice 58 – Taxes are wrong. Based on old assessment of $1.5M. Assessment was dropped to $1.1M for 2011…..probably based on the fact that no one would buy the place. Adjusted taxes are “only” $31,976. The house is over 6,000SF on 3/4 acre.

    I’m guessing they will appeal the assessment down again based on the new list price. GR assessments are only supposed to be 97% of market value for 2012.

    Horrible location too directly adjacent to GR HS.

  66. homeboken says:

    hughes – Do you think the old man will ever step foot on the field again? He will collect a few more wins from the press-box.

    Imagine the chorus he will receive if he takes the field in Madison or Columbus? I think for his own safety he would avoid those games.

  67. Juice Box says:

    Thx Gator I know two people looking in GR, that listing is interesting because
    it has a carriage house above the three car garage for perhaps Grandma, it is very close to the train. I can see the downside of being next to the HS, traffic and noise etc.
    House does look like it needs lots of work too.

    Birds eye view.

  68. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [66] hughes

    FWIW, and from what I read, there are some obvious lapses and perhaps a coverup, but I find it hard to lay it on Paterno. He was only told of one incident, and he reported it up the chain of command. Failure to aggressively pursue what he had reported hardly equates to cover up, which seems to require an overt act.

    Further, I don’t know the law in PA, but generally misprision is not a crime in most jurisdictions. It is generally the case that people with special responsibilities must report crimes, and that is likely the case here, but that begs the question of what constitutes a report: Was Paterno obligated to tell police, or was his report to school authorities sufficient? Further, if Paterno is to be charged, what of the grad student that witnessed the crime? Was he not subject to the same requirements to report? What of the janitor who apparently never reported what he saw?

    Finally, Paterno can’t testify to anything. Were he to take the stand to report what the grad student said, it would be hearsay unless offered to support the grad student’s testimony. So what is the obligation of a second-hand “witness” to report an alleged crime that was reported to him? Clearly there was no obligation otherwise he’d be charged (or people would point out this requirement).

    I didn’t go to PSU, but I have a good deal of respect for Paterno and what he stood for. It is a shame that he is to be hounded out for something he did not orchestrate, did not further, and for failure to observe a moral obligation that few of us realize we have, if we even do.

  69. Juice Box says:

    The DA from the criminal complaint back in 1998 is to blame here, he never prosecuted.
    Strange story for sure, but Paterno should have at least fired the guy when he found out.

  70. NJGator says:

    Juice 69 – I hope Grandma is REALLY fond of baseball.

  71. Double Down says:

    Juice, that place is 10,000 square feet. The utility bills are a hoot, too.

  72. 3B says:

    #70 Agree somewhat.. But if you reported it up the chain of command, would you not have at least a moral, if not legal obligation to follow up on it? I can’t believe that he reported it, never heard anything more, and just went on about his business. If nothing else, a reasonable person would assume that even from a curosity standpoint one would have said whatever happened with……. Also one would have to believe that this would have been gossiped about all over the place.

  73. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Upon further reflection, and because it was pretty easy to research, I conclude the following:

    Joe Paterno’s report to his superiors may not have been sufficient Pa. Code s. 6313

    But, Paterno may not have had an obligation to report at all. Pa. Code s. 6311.

    The issue is that the children were not his responsiblity to begin with. To hold him responsible would require stretching Section 6311 almost to its breaking point, making virtually anyone who could be responsible for children in their professions to be liable under this act.

    My $0.02. Now back to real estate.

  74. grim says:

    Morristown and Morris Twp
    Mendham Boro and Twp

  75. JJ says:

    He had two choices as a human being that day. Take a baseball bat and beat the guy to death or call police. He did neither. I like to take a baseball bat to the two of them. Godless scum.

  76. homeboken says:

    I’ll say it again, there is no chance that JP shows his face on a football field that is not in State College. Even at home games, there is little chance we see him outside the press box.

  77. 3B says:

    #77 grim: To get residents to agree to merge towns, it will all depend on the socio-economic make up of those towns that you mention. I am not familiar with them, so I cannot comment.

  78. Bystander says:


    Joe did not witness it. A Grad ass’t.d did. He should have beaten him up. Paterno did tell the head of university police. He is the one arraigned for perjury. Just somesome facts. Unfortunately there is Charles Bronson to be found here.

  79. hughesrep says:


    I agree. Madison would be brutal. They are a$$holes on the best of days in that stadium. Fun place.


    What JJ said.

    He may have had no legal obligations, but as a leader and as a human he had many more.

    I also had a great deal of respect for Paterno. He seemed to do things the right way, very few scandals, good gradutaion rates, solid teams, very few off the field issues, etc. He just blew it.

    As Clot says, it all works until it doesn’t.

  80. Bystander says:

    Damn Droid. No Charles Bronson I meant.

  81. Barbara says:

    I have a lot of experience throuout my life with powerful organizations/mafias/cults with lots of overlap between the three, so my take away from this PSU scandal is that if Peterno and others did not report something as vile as molestation of children on campus property no less, then I have to assume that it’s because the perp has something big and scandalous to divulge about his coworkers and superiors. We haven’t heard anything because it’s the victims that came forward as adults, not his colleagues so now the heat has been nullified. Anyway I’m surprised I haven’t heard anything along these lines in the online forums or in talk backs. Seems obvious to be that the debauchery goes deeper.

  82. Barbara says:

    Heat = threat

  83. Barbara says:

    Nullified = neutralized

  84. NJGator says:

    I won’t speculate as to whether or not Paterno and PSU fulfilled their legal requirements, but the fact that the university allowed this creep any access to their facilities years after the 2002 incident is disturbing.

    Dan Wetzel reports that, according to anonymous sources, Jerry Sandusky worked out “multiple times” in the Penn State football weight room last week.

    Penn State said it banned Sandusky from bringing children to the football building after a then graduate assistant reported he saw the then 59-year-old coach and a 10-year-old boy in the shower of the football team’s locker room …
    Curley and Schultz did not call police, as the state attorney general says was required by Pennsylvania law. Instead they chose to engage a partial ban of Sandusky from university facilities, although that apparently did not include full access to the school’s weight room. The decision was reviewed and approved by university president Graham Spanier.

    Given that at least two prominent people in the football program – assistant coach Mike McQueary, the witness who saw the 2002 incident in which Sandusky allegedly raped a child in a Penn State locker room, and head coach Joe Paterno, to whom McQueary reported the incident – should have known exactly how dangerous Sandusky could be, it’s amazing that he was still allowed in Penn State facilities so recently.

    This revelation also gives some credence to the grand jury report’s incredible pronouncement that, even after the 2002 incident, Sandusky was still able to bring a child to Penn State spring practices in 2007.

  85. Captain Foresight HEHEHE says:

    FBI in Hoboken – more arrests to come?


  86. Bystander says:


    Crime is so sick that it stains all. JoePA is the figurehead but both university police and state college police knew about Sandusky for years. Once the big fish is brought down then the proper focus will begin like why the enforcement were not all over this man for years. He freaking said he wanted to die from guilt yet police did not prosecute?? Paterno knew nothing of those investigations in 1998.

  87. Shore Guy says:

    “He was only told of one incident, and he reported it up the chain of command.”

    Yes, he reporterd it up the chain, like he should have. But, and this is important:

    A GA Coach came to him, the head coach, and reported that a former coach, who had full run of the football facilities, was having sex with a child in the football showers. A FCUKING ADULT was sexually abusing a child in the facilities that Paterno rules like a king and Paterno did not ban him from the place? Paterno never followed up either — “Hey boss, a child was mollested in my facility by someone I worked with for years and who still roams the halls with other children. Hey boss, what ever happened with that?”

    Paterno did not WANT to know. He is a coward and should be gone today.

    On a note that might actually affect how PSU looks at this, if you were the parent of a recruit and your child had a choice of Big 10 schools, or other schools, why would you allow your kid to play for such morally-flawed people? A major-college football program exists in a bit of a bubble; would any of you want your child to be isolated in a bubble controlled by the likes of the leadership at PSU?

  88. Shore Guy says:

    I for one like John’s approach. I think a jury would forgive parents of the abused were they to go after the miscreants with baseball bats.

  89. Captain Foresight HEHEHE says:


    I’d have to agree with you. That guy likely knows of stuff re recruiting violations etc. What other explanation do you have for PSU not only not contacting the authorities but also keeping the creep “happy” all these years?

    The entire thing stinks to high heaven and to be honest hopefully leads to the downfall of the NCAA as we know it.

  90. Shore Guy says:

    “I won’t speculate as to whether or not Paterno and PSU fulfilled their legal requirements, but the fact that the university allowed this creep any access to their facilities years after the 2002 incident is disturbing.

    Dan Wetzel reports that, according to anonymous sources, Jerry Sandusky worked out “multiple times” in the Penn State football weight room last week.”

    If I were the president of Penn State, I would fire every football coach (Paterno effective today, maybe let the rest finish the season), I would fire every Assistant Athletic Director who had anything to do with Football, and I would fire the A.D., then I would resign. That would be the honorable thing to do.

  91. NJGator says:

    How a financial pro lost his house
    A financial adviser spells out the steps that brought him and his family to the brink of fiscal disaster

    ONE night a few years ago, when the value of our home had collapsed, our debt was out of control and my financial planning business was shaky, I went to take out the trash.
    There was this enormous window that looked right in on the kitchen table, and through it I could see my wife, Cori, and our four children eating dinner. It was dark outside, so they couldn’t see me, and I just stood there looking at them.
    After a while, I pulled up a bucket and I sat on it, just watching my children eat. I found myself wishing that I could get back there, connected to the simple ordinary stuff of my family’s life. And as I sat and watched, filled with longing and guilt, two questions kept arising:
    How did I get here?
    And how am I going to get out of this?
    There are many stories these days of people who lost their financial bearings during the housing boom and the crisis that followed, but my story is a bit different from most.
    I’m a financial adviser. I get paid to help people make smart financial choices, and I speak and write about personal finance issues for this publication and others. My first book comes out in January, “The Behavior Gap: Simple Ways to Stop Doing Dumb Things With Money” (Portfolio, a Penguin imprint).
    The thing that few people know, though, is that I learned a lot of this from experience. I made a bunch of mistakes, the very same ones that I now go around warning people to avoid.
    So this is the story of how I lost my home, the profound ethical questions that arose along the way, and what my wife and I learned from the mistakes that led us to that point. It made me better at what I do, but it wasn’t much fun getting there.

  92. Captain Foresight HEHEHE says:


    Add to it the fact that Paterno supposedly never witnessed anything first-hand.

  93. Shore Guy says:

    Penn State should also ask the NCAA to allow any PSU athlete to transfer and not be required to sit out any time before being allowed to play. Penn State might not need the SMU death penalty but, they need to do some penance or Penn-ance.

  94. Shore Guy says:

    “Add to it the fact that Paterno supposedly never witnessed anything first-hand”

    Bull$hit! That is a friggen copout. Paterno knew but did not want to know and did not want to have to get involved in something he knew would be ugly. Paterno is a coward.

  95. Captain Foresight HEHEHE says:


    I am saying strictly from what Nom saying re the prosecutors not pursuing him. I am of the opinion the guy should have resigned by now.

  96. Shore Guy says:

    In fact, Paterno, in my opinion, is a selfish coward who lacks the common decency to step down NOW in the interest of allowing the university (for which he expresses great affection) and the players (to whom he describes himself as a teacher) to get past this scandal as quickly.

    I expect that self interest, not wanting to do anything that allows those who will be filing civil suits in which I suspect he will be named, trumps the good of the school and the players. Nice lesson coach; you are some kind of teacher.

  97. Captain Foresight HEHEHE says:

    Another thing – there’s only 8 kids in the complaint. Those are 8 whose allegations they feel they can prove or had allegations from. I am sure there’s countless others that will make their way out of the woodwork as things progress.

  98. Bystander says:


    You have an obvious agenda against Paterno but I guess all the police officers are cowards too. They knew as well and it is their job to protect people from Sandusky. Why did they not do so? Coverup in entire PSU area?

  99. Shore Guy says:

    A question, if the NCAA takes away scholarships because a coach hands a kid $20 so he can catch a bus home during an off weekend, or halps a player’s dad find a job in town so the family need not be 2,000 apart for four years — what should the NCAA penalty be for ignoring repeated sexual assaults on children (don’t forget the one witnessed and reported in 2000) in athletic department facilities?

    The dissembling comments and mealy-mouthed excuses coming out of Penn State should embarrass anyone who has any connection with the institution.

    Penn Sate is starting to make O.U. under Barry Switzer look like a shining city on the hill.

  100. Shore Guy says:

    “You have an obvious agenda against Paterno ”

    Nope. Prior to this, I had no feelings about him one way or the other. My feelings about him come from reading the entire grand jury’s report, reading and seeing his statements in recent days, and knowing how a D-1 football program runs. Just because the campus cops in 2000, and, it seems, the local cops in ’98, were also gutless b@stards who failed to uphold their sworn oaths does not make Paterno’s behavior, or lack thereof, any less vile.

  101. Shore Guy says:


    Good points about the sending relationships with AP.

  102. Barbara says:

    Penn State Football and it’s support staff are cultish. Thats what you have to keep in mind when asking ,”why….why….why?”

  103. chicagofinance says:

    This one goes beyond “blew it”. To put in perspective, he is now responsible for something that is worse than all the other NCAA infractions throughout the country for the last 10 years combined.

    hughesrep says:
    November 9, 2011 at 12:45 pm
    I also had a great deal of respect for Paterno. He seemed to do things the right way, very few scandals, good gradutaion rates, solid teams, very few off the field issues, etc. He just blew it.

  104. Shore Guy says:

    Cue the X-Files music:

    Questions on Sandusky Are Wrapped in a 2005 Mystery

    One of the questions surrounding the sex-abuse case against Jerry Sandusky is why a former district attorney chose not to prosecute the then-Penn State assistant coach in 1998 after reports surfaced that he had inappropriate interactions with a boy.

    The answer is unknowable because of an unsolved mystery: What happened to Ray Gricar, the Centre County, Pa., district attorney?

    Gricar went missing in April 2005. The murky circumstances surrounding his disappearance — an abandoned car, a laptop recovered months later in a river without a hard drive, his body was never found — have spawned Web sites, television programs and conspiracy theories. More than six years later, the police still receive tips and reports of sightings. The police in central Pennsylvania continue to investigate even though Gricar’s daughter, Lara, successfully petitioned in July to have her father declared legally dead so the family could find some closure and begin dividing his estate.

    Yet as the Sandusky investigation moves forward, questions will be asked anew about why Gricar did not pursue charges against him 13 years ago. A small but strident minority believes Gricar did not want to tackle a case that involved a hometown icon. Others who knew and worked with Gricar say he was a meticulous, independent and tough-minded prosecutor who was unbowed by Penn State, its football program and political pressure in general.

  105. Barbara says:

    I’m going to take it a step further and speculate that the eye witness may have feared for his life, and with good reason.

  106. Impressive posts. I really love the information here on your website.

  107. seif says:

    anyone seen or posted this yet?

    Over 50% Of US Homeowners Are Effectively Underwater

  108. Shore Guy says:

    From that article:

    “Negative equity rose to 28.6 percent of single-family homes with mortgages in the third quarter of this year, according to Zillow. ”

    How is that 50% of homeowners, especially since many homeowners are mortgage free?

  109. seif says:

    keep reading:

    “Consider the following from mortgage analyst Mark Hanson:
    On US totals, if you figure average house prices use conforming loan balances, then a repeat buyer has to have roughly 10 percent down to buy in addition to the 6 percent Realtor fee to sell. Thus, the effective negative equity target would be 85%. You also have to factor in secondary financing, which most measures leave out.
    Based on that, over 50 percent of all mortgaged households in the US are effectively underwater — unable to sell for enough to pay a Realtor and put a down payment on a new purchase without coming out of pocket. Because repeat buyers have always carried the market as the foundation, this is why demand has not come back. It’s as if half the potential buyers in America died over a two-year period of time.”

    Read more:

  110. Shore Guy says:

    “a repeat buyer has to have roughly 10 percent down to buy”

    So then move to an apartment, that eliminates the 10%. I don’t buy the methodology.

  111. Bystander says:


    I agree. The inaction at every level is inexcusable . 60 plus years down the drain though. Say what you want but he donated his salary back to school, raised millions upon millions for charity, graduated his players and won more games than anyone. He is not a coward but not sure why it went down this way. Also the grand jury probe was announces in March this year. The train was coming for Joe. He could have stepped aside before the season and avoid the circus mostly. Not sure why he came back. No country for old men…

  112. Shore Guy says:

    Before heading out, one last thing about Penn State, and it is a reminder for all of us in all our dealings:!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_485/image.jpg

  113. Barbara says:

    No country for old men? I’d sAy given the climate of decades long molestations within organized religion, Casey Anthony not guilty verdicts, and ruined lives rationalized over a winning team, it’s no country for children.

  114. seif says:

    fair enough. i just read it, i’m not married to the methodology. this portion interested me more:

    “The argument to solve this problem is principal forgiveness, and it is gaining traction politically and somewhat less in the banking sector.
    Principal forgiveness, or lowering the balance of a large chunk of the nation’s mortgages, would be costly at best but could be catastrophic at worst. “Those thinking principal reductions are a panacea have never originated a loan, done the street level research, and do not really know the borrowers behind their data,” argues Hanson. “More than likely it would create a far greater number of new strategic defaulters than the number it would legitimately save from Foreclosure.”

    All this “principal forgiveness” stuff is really bugging me. At least this guy is a voice against it.

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  116. NJGator says:

    Touche Barbara, touche!

  117. 3b says:

    Are they mtg free. But have helocs or home equity loans? Is that factored in?

  118. Bystander says:


    Joe did not commit crime. My remark was more about when faced with the horror he did not have it in him to fight it.

  119. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Italia, che cosa, eh? Non me rompere i coglioni, per favore!

  120. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    On Paterno, I will only add this: Hindsight is 20/20.

  121. Barbara says:

    Well, I still think that this probably goes deeper than poor judgement. Yep.

  122. Barbara says:

    Let’s switch up the players. A public school coach on the tax payers payroll with a losing team who knew someone under him wAs buggering boys on the Jr varsity. Same excuses?

  123. JJ says:

    Jarvis the coach of SJU basketball pulled his pants down after a game and said his players “suck like his ####” and pointed to it. The head of the school fired him on the spot when he found out. Jarvis was like I did not have time to defend myself. Exactly what reason is their for pulling out your #### and showing it to a bunch of teenage boys at work.?

    Joe Pa should have his grandsons take a shower with his friend and afterwards lets see if he still thinks there was no need to stop him or call police.

  124. JJ says:

    pennus state university.

  125. FKA 2010 Buyer says:

    Legally, Joe fulfilled his responsibilities by alerting his superiors. Morally he is guilty in my book due to his inaction of not following up on this. By banning Sundusky from bringing kids onto the campus, they basically said….you can continue doing what you do, just don’t do on campus. I call that “silent” consent.

    Think about….you hear a rumor (could very well be false) dealing with innocent kids (not a grown person that could be he said / she said) and more than likely is meeting young kids through his charity.

  126. Barbara says:

    Do you believe that Joe Paterno has superiors?

  127. Dan in debt says:

    Wayne and Paterson
    Millburn and Union
    Livingston and West Orange
    Glen Ridge and East Orange
    Westfield, Scotch Plains and Plainfield

    Remember, it’s for the children like the success story of South Orange and Maplewood combining the high school.

  128. hughesrep says:


    I have to meet my future boss near North Bergen tomorrow at 12:00, he is bringing my offer letter. He has a meeting at 2:00 in North Bergen.

    Any suggestions? I’m not real familiar with the area, so something close to a highway, easy to get to.

  129. FKA 2010 Buyer says:

    Yes, his boss the Athletic Director

  130. JJ says:


  131. JJ says:

    Meeting a man at a highway rest stop for a job? I didn’t know you went to Penn State?

    hughesrep says:
    November 9, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    I have to meet my future boss near North Bergen tomorrow at 12:00, he is bringing my offer letter. He has a meeting at 2:00 in North Bergen.

    Any suggestions? I’m not real familiar with the area, so something close to a highway, easy to get to.

  132. WickedOrange says:

    A must listen for those following the joe pa story

  133. Anybody got word on exactly when the US Mint is going to fabricate those two one-quadrillion coins?

  134. Shore Guy says:


    The tennis coach might report to the AD, Paterno could tell the AD to shine his shoes.

  135. expat (47)-

    Perhaps the worldwide skimming and slow-mo bank robbery that passes for modern finance is about to come to an end.

    Yield must be paid, mf’er. The vultures must be fed.

    Burn, baby…burn!!!!

  136. Simply Ravishing HEHEHE says:

    There’s all kinds of questions I’d like answered. Did that graduate assistant really just tell Paterno that the guy was fondling the kid or is that how Paterno spun it to the higher ups? Why didn’t the graduate assistant do anything to stop what he saw? I can understand a moment of shock, and maybe you don’t break it up because the guys bigger than you but at the minimum you call the cops. How can PSU not call the cops and still leave that guy on campus? The guy had to have something on PSU. How else do you explain that?

    It sounds to me like they all got together and reached an agreement. Grad assistant has job for life with PSU for not saying anything to the cops; Paterno keeps his job and “legacy” for not calling the cops; PSU keeps getting $ from donors and “glory” for the football program; and the creep gets to keep creeping so long as he doesn’t rat out PSU.

  137. hughesrep says:


    That “grad assistant” was the Penn State QB from 96-97. A few years out of school, a two year starter at PSU, knocked around the NFL and Eurpean NFL. He may have had reasons to be afraid, but it had nothing to do with getting his a$$ kicked by an old man.

    BTW he is now an assistant coach at Penn State. Look of the guy with red hair on the sidelines.

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  139. JJ says:

    watch the close today, may be huge vol. people in the know are watching

  140. Juice Box says:

    Right now the team is 8-1? Smart money says they will be demoralized and will lose this weekend to the 7-2 corn huskers. The line is only 3.5 now, so anyone care to swing for the fences?

  141. JJ says:

    Municipal bonds rallied, pushing yields to a five-week low, as investors sought safety in U.S. Treasuries amid concern that European governments won’t make spending cuts to avoid bond defaults.

    CHIF, January partial and full calls on any muni with any coupon with a 5% or more coupon will be brutal.

  142. JJ says:

    If that team has any pride if Joe Pa is coaching the players should stay on the bench or even better forfeit game.

    Juice Box says:
    November 9, 2011 at 3:40 pm
    Right now the team is 8-1? Smart money says they will be demoralized and will lose this weekend to the 7-2 corn huskers. The line is only 3.5 now, so anyone care to swing for the fences?

  143. Shore Guy says:

    “How can PSU not call the cops ”

    As a town, State College is something like 30,000 people The university is THE TOP DOG and what gives the area a reason to exist and, as far as the University and community are concerned THE THING that puts PSU on the map is Paterno and his football program. It is very easy to see how all manner of people would let just about anything to slide in the interest of not besmirching the football program, for to do so hurts EVERYONE in the area. Sworn officers did not do their duty. University officials did not do their duty. Paterno dis not do his duty. Bottom line: they all had misplaced priorities.

    If someone had been in the shower with one of his grandkids, I trust that Paterno would have had the b@lls to do the right thing. I guess some disadvantaged kid was not worth the bad publicity.

    The university’s trustees should send Paterno packing tonight, not in December, and not in January.

  144. Shore Guy says:


    I agree with you. I feel sorry for the current players. They should all have an opportunity to transfer without having to sit out.

  145. gary says:

    I’m so saddened and upset by this story, I can’t even begin. I’m really beyond words at the utter disregard for these children. It’s an absolute disgrace.

  146. Shore Guy says:

    The Dow uptick has begun.

  147. Juice Box says:

    re: #142 – JJ EU Debt contagion will continue for quite some time, there will be no rally unless perhaps that Mad Printer Ben Bernake decides to step in. Right now he is intervening in FX swap lines, however just that won’t prevent cascading sovereign defaults and bank runs. He needs to fire up the helicopter and start buying debt because Article 123 of the EU Treaty, to big to bail “the prohibition of monetary financing” prevents the ECB from printing.

    To unwind that would require a new Treaty. Good luck passing that.

  148. box (143)-

    Thanks for getting us back to what’s important about this whole PSU thing.

    “Right now the team is 8-1? Smart money says they will be demoralized and will lose this weekend to the 7-2 corn huskers. The line is only 3.5 now, so anyone care to swing for the fences?”

  149. Juice Box says:

    Clot – what is important is the coverup. There was a story in the paper about Sandusky 6 months ago. Where was the MSM then? Why was he still working out in the gym and showering there as of last week.

    Some have questioned the value of the football program to the College vs the welfare of children. It seem to me that the Penn State valued the program more. Nobody is going to want to play for them now. They might as well shut down the program entirely.

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  151. box (152)-

    Why would anyone interested in something other than partying his ass off or football ever attend PSU? That place is deep Pennsyltucky.

  152. Bocephus says:

    254. Hey now that sounds OK to me! how’s the bar b q??

  153. JCer says:

    154, meat PSU is a very good school. Yes it is in the middle of nowhere and yes they party way too much but the education offered is very good. Also for residents its a good deal, say what you will but they have good programs.

  154. Shore Guy says:

    “It seem to me that the Penn State valued the program more. Nobody is going to want to play for them now.”

    Correct on point one. On point two, sadly, incorrect. They may not attract people the university would otherwise want to represent it but there will always be more people wanting to play there than there will be scholarships available, or even walk-on slots.

    It would be good for football nationally if the NCAA imposed the death penalty on Penn State. It will no more happen than prosecuting a gaggle of Wal Streeters who nearly doomed the economy but, that would have been good for the nation as well.

  155. Shore Guy says:

    “they have good programs.”

    Some of thre best educational programs in the nation are offered at schools where the population surrounding the school has, as a group, very little going for it economically, culturally, etc.

    Penn State is no Michigan, Berkeley, or UVA, but it does offer a fine education. Or, at least, a motivated student can find a good education there.

  156. A motivated student can get a good education at Raritan Valley Community College.

  157. yo says:


    Top officials consider forming a core euro zone
    By Julien Toyer and Annika Breidthardt
    BRUSSELS – German and French officials have discussed plans for a radical overhaul of the European Union that would involve establishing a more integrated and potentially smaller euro zone, EU sources say. Full Article | Video

    With Italy at breaking point, Merkel calls for “new Europe”
    Euro zone has no plans to rescue Italy: officials
    Breakingviews: An interactive Italian debt calculator
    Analysis: Debt crisis fells governments, legitimacy in question

  158. freedy says:

    Let’s circle back to corzine /they gave him a pass at FINRA ,another useless agency
    where they park the losers

  159. freedy says:

    how long before we have our first bk here in NJ? it took a few years for us to get caught up on the foreclosures

  160. Mikeinwaiting says:

    hughesrep 131 N. B. born & raised what you looking for high end , good hot dog , pizza?

  161. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Ok hughesrep here is the place in Union City about 2 blocks off of Kennedy Blvd (No. Bergen on the other side of Blvd), kind of a drop the gun take the cannoli place. Food great ,prices very reasonable not fancy, the waitress is old school.

    Casa Di Napoli

    703 32nd St
    Union City, NJ 07087

    (201) 867-1934

  162. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Penn State, ad nauseum.

  163. Anybody got Italy in their deadpool?

    Looks like Merkel and Sarkozy are going to take their marbles and go home. Will be fun to watch them give the middle finger to all the zombie debtor states on the periphery.

    It matters not. In the end, the vigilantes will have their asses, too.

  164. See what happens when you falsify everything about your economy just to get on the Euro?

  165. Everybody knows that there are only about 12 people in Italy that have real jobs (that don’t involve no-show, pay-to-play skimming schemes) that pay real money.

  166. Don’t worry about this whole Euro thingy. All the big banks holding the worthless debt have it hedged.

    [sarc off]

  167. hughesrep says:



    Perfect. Thanks.

  168. Shore Guy says:

    J. Edgar never got Capone, it was the IRS. Now it seems that Paterno may have his own federal problem — the Clery Act:

    Feds investigate if Penn State officials violated US law

    By Michael Isikoff
    NBC News National Investigative Correspondent

    Federal officials will investigate whether Penn State officials violated federal law by failing to report alleged sexual abuse by the school’s former football defense coordinator Jerry Sandusky.

    Justin Hamilton, a spokesman for Education Secretary Arne Duncan, confirmed to NBC News that the department was launching a probe into whether there were possible violations of a federal law called the Clery Act. It requires colleges and universities to publish and distribute information about criminal offenses — including sex offenses — that are reported to school authorities.

    Penn State officials were formally notified of the investigation in a letter received Wednesday, officials said.

    “If these allegations of sexual abuse are true then this is a horrible tragedy for those young boys,” Duncan said in a statement. “If it turns out that some people at the school knew of the abuse and did nothing or covered it up, that makes it even worse. Schools and school officials have a legal and moral responsibility to protect children and young people from violence and abuse.”

    In an interview with the Associated Press this week, Duncan called reports about the school’s handling of the allegations “absolutely devastating,” adding: “The fact that this was allowed to go for so long is mind-boggling to me.”

  169. Mikeinwaiting says:

    hughesrep 174 my pleasure , I’m jealous don’t get down there much. Enjoy!

  170. nj escapee says:

    Boat crash at Key West Powerboat Races 2011. 2 men killed in powerboat crash, November 9, 2011 during the Super Boat International races Wednesday.

  171. nj escapee says:

    Done!! Penn State board forces coach Joe Paterno to quit

  172. Shore Guy says:

    Were you at the race?

  173. Shore Guy says:

    “Done!! Penn State board forces coach Joe Paterno to quit”

    Really? Where did you catch the news?

  174. Shore Guy says:

    Finally, the right thing is being done at Penn State:

    STATE COLLEGE, Pa. — Graham B. Spanier, one of the longest-serving and highest-paid university presidents in the nation, who has helped raise the academic profile of Penn State during his tenure, stepped down Wednesday night in the wake of a sexual-abuse scandal involving a prominent former assistant football coach and the university’s failure to act to halt further harm.

    Spanier’s departure came as the university’s Board of Trustees also ended the 84-year-old Joe Paterno’s career, denying him his wish to finish out the season, his 46th as the head football coach and his 62nd over all at the school.

    The defensive coordinator Tom Bradley will take over as interim head coach.

    The university’s most senior officials were clearly seeking to halt the humiliating damage caused by the arrest last Saturday of the former assistant coach, Jerry Sandusky, a man who had been a key part of a legendary football program, but who prosecutors have said was a serial pedophile, one who was allowed to add victims over the years in part because the university he had served was either unable or unwilling to stop him.


  175. Shore Guy says:

    I have nothing to do with Penn State (or against it) but I am so freaking glad to hear others calling the people who failed to act cowards, for cowards they were. The trustees deserve praise for doing the right thing:

    STATE COLLEGE, Pa. — In hindsight, Joe Paterno is absolutely devastated. Those were his words on Wednesday — “absolutely devastated.” And that was a start. It was a lot better than his actions Tuesday, when he was absolutely pleased to bask in the adulation of the Penn State students in his lawn.

    If he had to do it all over again, Joe Paterno would have done more. Those also were his words Wednesday — “I wish I had done more.” And that was a start. It was a lot more than he felt he should do in 2002, when he was told of an apparent sexual assault committed by former defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky on a young boy within his football building. In 2002, Paterno didn’t do very much. He literally did the legal minimum. He told his supervisor, and then he went on with his life.

    As did Jerry Sandusky.

    Nine years later, the count of Sandusky’s alleged victims has reached nine. There are reports that it could hit 20 or more. Joe Paterno didn’t do that, no. But he didn’t stop it either. That’s why he says “I wish I had done more.” And that’s why he’s “absolutely devastated.”

    And that’s why he couldn’t coach this Saturday. Or next Saturday. Or ever again.

    Penn State’s Board of Trustees didn’t need hindsight to know that, either. Joe Paterno simply couldn’t coach this team one more time, even if it would be one last time. This is Penn State’s home finale, and Paterno announced Wednesday morning that he is retiring at the end of the season. That was good, but not nearly good enough.

    Paterno, cheered by more than 100,000 people on Saturday? Idolized for three more hours? Upheld as a hero, as a paragon of virtue, as everything that is right about Penn State?

    That couldn’t happen, because Paterno is none of those things. Not anymore.

    Joe Paterno was part of a cowardly system that looked the other way for nine years as an alleged pedophile was roaming State College. More than that — Sandusky was using the Penn State football offices as one of his home bases.


  176. Shore Guy says:

    I wonder how long it will be before Paterno’s house is for sale.

  177. nj escapee says:

    Shore, wasn’t down there today but bicycled down to the Truman Annex on Sunday afternoon before the races began to check out all the entrants. My wife’s EMT instructor was one of the first responders.

  178. Whew. Talk about stench of death:

    KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) — A suburban Kansas City woman was left sitting in a vinyl recliner for so long that her skin had fused to the chair and she had to be pried out to be taken to a hospital after suffering an apparent stroke, authorities said.
    Carol F. Brown’s adult son told a state official he had left his 74-year-old mother in the chair for five days without helping her get up to use the bathroom or bathe because he was honoring her wishes to die in her Independence home, according to court documents that described the woman as a “rotting corpse that was still breathing.” Brown later died.

  179. Fabius Maximus says:

    Nothing new in this piece from September, but its nice to hear it explained so clearly.

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  181. yo says:

    Let’s look at corporate taxes and ask, “Who pays them?”

    Virginia has a car tax. Does the car pay the tax? In most political jurisdictions, there’s a property tax. Does property pay the tax? You say: “Williams, that’s lunacy. Neither a car nor property pays taxes. Only flesh-and-blood people pay taxes!”

    What about a corporation? As it turns out, a corporation is an artificial creation of the legal system and, as such, a legal fiction. A corporation is not a person and therefore cannot pay taxes. When tax is levied on a corporation, who pays it?

    There’s an entire subject area in economics, known as tax incidence, that investigates who bears the burden of a tax. It turns out that the burden of a tax is not necessarily borne by the party or entity upon whom it is levied.

    For example, if a sales tax is levied on a cigarette retailer, the retailer does not bear the full burden of the tax. Part of it will be shifted forward to customers in the form of higher product prices. The exact amount of the shifting depends upon market supply and demand conditions.

    What about raising taxes on corporations as a means to get them to pay their “rightful share of government”? If a tax is levied on a corporation and if it is to survive, it will have one of several responses or some combination thereof.

    One response is to raise the price of its product, so customers share part of the burden. Another response is to lower dividends, so shareholders share a part of the burden. And a considerable portion of reduced dividend burden falls on ordinary nonrich people.

    According to the Tax Foundation, 19% of federal tax returns report dividend income, but 42% of taxpayers older than 65 report dividend income. Therefore, it is people, not some legal fiction called a corporation, who bear the burden of the tax.

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  183. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (186) yo,

    Don’t tell Fabius that. It will mess up his worldview. He’s already conflicted on the whole personhood thing: corporation is not a person but should be taxed like one.

    If he were truly progressive, he’d argue for pass through treatment for C corps.

  184. evildoc says:

    —–“From what I’ve been told from TV, you are supposed to get a house,” said Mr. Kinney, 27, referring to the progression of life after marriage. “And then I get to sit in a nice chair.”—–

    I weep for our country.

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