First National Bank of Mom and Dad drives Gen-X purchasing

From NJBIZ:

In hurting market, first-time buyers depend on parents to secure a home

New Jersey’s struggling housing market and high unemployment rate among the 25- to 34-year-old set have driven those who want to fulfill the American dream of homeownership to the wallets of their parents and grandparents.

And with New Jersey tops in the nation for the highest average home down payment, according to data released by LendingTree, it’s no question why approximately one in five baby boomers have gifted money or co-signed a loan for their child or grandchild’s down payment on a home.

According to Jeffrey Otteau, president of Otteau Valuation Group, in East Brunswick, the expiration of last year’s homebuyer tax credits, tighter lending standards and low employment — compounded by boomers who put off retirement for 10 or more years — have had the greatest negative effect on first-time homebuyers, especially those younger than 34.

Despite an increasing number of buyers who can’t afford a first home without help from mom and dad, Rutgers University urban planning and policy development program director Robert Burchell, himself a boomer, said both parties can benefit when parents give money to their children for a down payment.

“If I didn’t give my son the $5,000 he needed 10 years ago to buy his first home — which ultimately allowed him to purchase two more homes on his own — then he would have needed $100,000 as a down payment for the house his lives in now, or else he would still be renting,” Burchell said. “I may have to give him a subsequent $10,000 to help him move to a better home for his family in the future, but knowing he can hold his own with finances otherwise — thanks to that initial $5,000 — is a huge payoff for both of us.”

Burchell’s decision is common in New Jersey. According to a recent survey by Better Homes and Gardens Real Estate, adults over the age of 45 with at least one child or grandchild older than 18 are most interested in giving money to their children, and least interested in co-signing a loan. More than two-thirds of boomers surveyed said they are willing to provide financial support for a down payment on their child’s first home, and those who had already provided funding are most confident they will do so again.

“The American dream is becoming more unattainable for those (ages) 18 to 34, who could very well have been first-time homebuyers in the past,” Otteau said. “But those with help from baby boomer parents still have a chance.”

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186 Responses to First National Bank of Mom and Dad drives Gen-X purchasing

  1. grim says:

    From HousingWire:

    S&P: Home prices back to 2001 levels

    Current home prices when adjusted for inflation are back to 2001 levels, suggesting the high prices experienced over the past decade did little to effectuate significant long-term gains, according to David Blitzer, chairman of Standard & Poor’s index committee.

    Blitzer said the rapid increase and decline in home prices did nothing for average home values while creating havoc throughout the economy.

    “Allowing for a dip in home prices in the 1990s when inflation rose faster than houses, we’re almost back to 1989,” he said. “This shouldn’t suggest that home prices never rise faster than inflation any more than the arguments for investing in your home – they’re not making any more land or everyone has to live somewhere — should be ignored.”

    Blitzer posted a chart on the company’s HousingViews blog recently that showed the S&P/Case-Shiller 10-city home price index and real home prices not far from where they landed in early 2001.

    As for whether buying a home is even a good investment, Blitzer reached no definitive conclusion.

    “There isn’t a general answer to the question because it depends on the economy, the real estate market and most of all on the needs, desires and finances of the potential buyer,” he said.

  2. grim says:

    From CNN Money:

    Manhattan home prices fall in final months of 2011

    Despite a number of multi-million dollar home sales, including a record-setting $88 million penthouse deal in December, Manhattan real estate prices fell significantly during the final months of 2011.

    The median price paid for a condo or co-op in the nation’s most expensive housing market fell to $855,000 during the last three months of 2011, down 6% from the $911,333 three months earlier, according to Prudential Douglas Elliman.

    Corcoran Group, another prominent broker in the New York metro area, reported a similar percentage drop in median prices, while Greg Heym, who analyzes sales data for brokers Brown, Harris Stevens and Halstead Property, said the decline in prices was closer to 8%. Corcoran reported a median sale price of $795,000. The two other brokers reported a median sale price of $785,000.

    “If there was any weakness in the market, it was in the middle end,” said Dottie Herman, CEO of Prudential Douglas Elliman.

  3. grim says:

    From the NY Times:

    Real Estate Prices Are Steady in Manhattan, but Sales Fall

    The Manhattan real estate market closed out 2011 with prices relatively flat, but sales volume for the fourth quarter was down by more than 12 percent from the previous year largely because of shrinking condominium inventory as fewer new developments came to market, according to reports that will be released by the city’s major brokerage firms on Wednesday.

    The median fourth-quarter sales price was $855,000, down 1.2 percent from the same time in 2010, according to one report, from Prudential Douglas Elliman. The figure is far from the market’s peak in 2008, when the median was close to $1 million, but up from the bottom in 2009, when the median hovered around $800,000.

    The number of sales, however, was only 2,011, a 12.4 percent drop from 2010 and a surprising 35.3 percent drop from the third quarter of 2011, according to Elliman’s report. “That’s a pretty sharp quarterly drop, and I don’t know if it’s a precursor to lower activity going forward,” said Jonathan J. Miller, the president of the appraisal firm Miller Samuel and the author of Elliman’s report.

    Fourth-quarter sales volume typically drops off by about 9 percent from the third quarter, because of a slowdown during the holidays. But Mr. Miller said that the 35 percent decrease was probably “a byproduct of the last six months of global economic volatility, which translates into a pause until consumers figure out what it all means.”

    Dottie Herman, the chief executive of Elliman, said the 35 percent drop may have been exaggerated because third-quarter sales volume was unusually high amid heavy interest from foreign buyers when the dollar was at its weakest. “But over all, prices and volume wasn’t that different from the previous year, and I think this year, in 2012, we’re probably going to have a lot more of the same,” she said.

    Diane M. Ramirez, the president of Halstead Property, said she was not alarmed by the year-to-year decrease in sales because the 2010 figure had been inflated by a surge in sales in the last months of that year, as buyers rushed to make purchases before an anticipated increase in capital gains taxes. The capital gains tax rate had been scheduled to return to 20 percent from 15 percent in 2011, but Congress extended the lower rate just before it was to expire. “I think what we’re seeing is just the normal ebb and flow of the market,” she said.

    Pamela Liebman, the chief executive of the Corcoran Group, said the drop in sales volume was largely propelled by a dip in the number of new developments coming to market. While co-op inventory remained stable, she said, condo inventory, at 3,466, decreased 11 percent from 2010.

    While some areas, including parts of Harlem, still have new condo projects on the market, downtown neighborhoods like the West Village and Chelsea have extremely low inventory. “We’ve had a lot of clients hungry for great condos in the West Village, and we have had nothing to show them,” Ms. Liebman said.

  4. grim says:

    From the Star Ledger:

    Moody’s raises Weehawken out of junk bond territory

    The credit rating agency Moody’s Investors Service has upgraded Weehawken out of junk bond territory. The move, made in a Dec. 27 ratings update, drops the number of New Jersey municipalities whose bonds Moody’s rates as “speculative grade,” or junk, to five.

    Separately, Moody’s on Dec. 21 removed six New Jersey municipalities–East Orange, Paterson, Camden, Trenton, Passaic and Union City–from its watch list for possible downgrades after the state legislature restored Transitional Aid that these entities received. Moody’s rating on five of those cities remained intact, though it downgraded Passaic one notch due to its weak socioeconomic profile and a structural imbalance in its sewer utility fund.

    The New Jersey municipalities left in junk territory are Harrison, Collingswood, Salem, Irvington and Camden. Weehawken was downgraded to junk status on July 30, 2010. A message left at its finance department was not returned.

  5. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    If you don’t think the fix is in or these elections aren’t selling you anything but bs:

    CNN Pulls the Plug on Live Feed of Soldier Talking About Voting for Ron Paul

    http://cryptogon.com/?p=26802

    The clip is at the bottom but make sure you read the article:) If people really knew how f’d we are it would be scary.

  6. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  7. grim says:

    From NJBIZ:

    Experts: 2012 could be beginning of resurgent housing market

    At several points during the current economic recovery, the residential real estate market seemed poised for rebound, but New Jersey experts say in 2012, it’s for real.

    “Prices are the lowest in five years, interest rates are also very low … existing home sales are very strong,” said Robert Burchell, distinguished professor at the Edward J. Bloustein School of Planning and Public Policy at Rutgers University. “Everybody is asking the question: If I’m interested or I need to, when do I jump in? The jumping in point is probably going to be somewhere in 2012.”

    Burchell said the lining up of low prices and interest rates with decreasing unemployment, improved access to financing and the release of delayed foreclosure properties could create the atmosphere needed to get buyers active in the market.

    “People are interested in timing, always trying to time when the bottom is going to occur,” Burchell said. “If there’s something out there, then people jump. The only thing that would cause them not to jump is if they felt that they bought something … it would be worth less in two years than it is now, and I don’t think that’s going to be the case.”

    “In the New York metropolitan area, values have held up,” said Carl Neilsen, manager of Mortgage Masters Inc.’s Wayne office. “If the economy strengthens, and if foreclosures get cleared out, things will stabilize and get better. The worst, in terms of the declines in values, is behind us.”

    Anika Kahn, a Madison-based economist for Wells Fargo, said a surge in refinancing should abate, with most borrowers already having taken advantage of lower rates. “Borrowers that remain on the sidelines are those underwater on their mortgage — and they will likely remain so for some time.”

    “The backlog of foreclosed homes has made some progress,” Kahn added, noting a drop in shadow inventory — properties either in foreclosure that have not been sold, or homes owners are delaying putting on the market until prices improve — fell to a five-month supply in October 2011, down from seven months’ worth in the year-ago period.

    While a delay or stop in economic recovery would be an obvious derailment of optimism in the housing market, Burchell said any further protection of homes from foreclosure could also be a deciding factor in whether 2012 returns the market to growth.

    “We were protected with a variety of sanctions during the bailout … this doesn’t exist any longer. The banks are pulling their holds off of foreclosure,” Burchell said. “There are going to be more foreclosures, and that’s going to be an opportunity. … The big unknowns in foreclosure are one, how you go about it as a private citizen, and two, what your likely end result is going to be.”

    Burchell said the societal interest in protecting people from foreclosure may continue to delay the clearing of the market.

  8. grim says:

    From Reuters:

    Mortgage demand fell at year-end, purchases sag

    Demand for loans to buy homes and refinance mortgages slid in the final week of 2011, even as mortgage rates dipped, an industry group said on Wednesday.

    Applications for U.S. home mortgages fell 4.1 percent in the week ended December 30, weighed down by a 9.6 percent drop in purchase loan requests and a 2.5 percent decline in refinancing requests, seasonally adjusted data from the Mortgage Bankers Association showed.

    Average 30-year conforming mortgage rates dipped to the year’s low of 4.07 percent from 4.10 percent the prior week, and well below 4.82 percent at the end of 2010.

    The slide to near-record-low borrowing rates has spurred more homeowners to seek refinancing, propelling that index up more than 60 percent in 2011.

  9. HE (6)-

    Better they marginalize the guy than hire somebody to whack him.

    I feel like a dope for allowing myself a moment of hope last night. Too bad this country is hell-bent on taking a rocket sled straight back to the 16th century.

  10. reinvestor101 says:

    >>>Dissident HEHEHE says:
    January 4, 2012 at 6:44 am

    If you don’t think the fix is in or these elections aren’t selling you anything but bs:

    CNN Pulls the Plug on Live Feed of Soldier Talking About Voting for Ron Paul

    http://cryptogon.com/?p=26802

    The clip is at the bottom but make sure you read the article:) If people really knew how f’d we are it would be scary.<<<

    You damn conspiracy theorists are looking for crap every damn where aren't you? You just don't give up do you? CNN had to move the hell on and they don't have time to deal with some damn know nothing who's mumbling about shlt he doesn't know about a damn thing about. His job is to get his ass out on the damn battle field and take orders. No one asked him for his opinion and he deserved to get cut the hell off. There was more important news. Besides, he wasn't keeping up the right image of a loyal damn soldier. I've never heard a soldier complain about a damn thing. All of the rest of them shut the hell up, take pictures with their damn family, talk about doing their damn duty overseas and vote republican. The fact that this punk had the damn nerve to do anything other than that, makes me suspect he has liberal sympathies and mucking Ron Paul tries to play both sides of the fence. I'm so damn glad he got beat last night, so we don't have to hear his crap about the fed and his unpatriotic talk against war. This punk soldier isn't a patriot either.

  11. reinvestor101 says:

    What this country needs right now is some damn stability and that means we get the right damn people in office. We also need to get rid of That One (I can’t bring myself to say his name). Rick Santorum, Michelle Bachman or Sarah Palin will take this country in the right direction. Also I’m way the hell more comfortable with the traditional back and forth between the liberals and conservatives because that’s predictable. This idiot Paul operates outside of that and he’s real dangerous as a result. The man is a damn dope fiend also. If Paul got elected, we’d be a nation of potheads who’d give up fighting for freedom and the damn mullahs in Iran would have us under their stinking thumb. That’s no position for any rock ribbed red meat eating American

  12. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Clot,

    Yeah, I guess better to fight the good fight than end up in an orchestrated plane/car crash.

  13. Barbara says:

    No news here, for decades the NYC retail and rental market has been artificially supported by money from the burbs by way of post grads working low paying NYC jobs and getting monthly allowances from the rents that allow them to buy and rent what they certainly could never afford as they chase their dreams. Now those kids are letting the dream die, getting married and having kids.

  14. JJ says:

    The United States holds a disproportionate amount of the world’s rich people.

    It only takes $34,000 a year, after taxes, to be among the richest 1% in the world. That’s for each person living under the same roof, including children. (So a family of four, for example, needs to make $136,000.)

    So where do these lucky rich people live? About half of them — 29 million — live in the United States, according to calculations by World Bank economist Branko Milanovic in his book The Haves and the Have-Nots.

    Another four million live in Germany. The rest are mainly scattered throughout Europe, Latin America and a few Asian countries. Statistically speaking, none live in Africa, China or India despite those being some of the most populous areas of the world.

    The numbers put into perspective the idea of a rapidly growing global middle class.

    Sure, China and India are seeing their economies grow quickly, and along with that growth, large portions of their populations are also becoming richer. But remember, the emerging world is starting from a very low base to begin with, so its middle class is just that — still emerging, says Milanovic.

    “It doesn’t seem right to define as middle class, people who would be on food stamps in the United States,” Milanovic said.

    The true global middle class, falls far short of owning a home, having a car in a driveway, saving for retirement and sending their kids to college. In fact, people at the world’s true middle — as defined by median income — live on just $1,225 a year. (And, yes, Milanovic’s numbers are adjusted to account for different costs of living across the globe.)

  15. grim says:

    As much as I like the idea of Paul, re101 is right about the injection of FUD that would result. Uncertainty, and anything else that would undermine confidence, is something we really don’t need right now.

  16. gary says:

    Current home prices when adjusted for inflation are back to 2001 levels, suggesting the high prices experienced over the past decade did little to effectuate significant long-term gains, according to David Blitzer, chairman of Standard & Poor’s index committee.

    And the property taxes almost doubled. Think about it and get back to me when the light bulb goes on.

  17. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    What is FUD?

  18. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Our Military Heroes At Work

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/102755.html

    P.s. Not to cast all members of military in a bad light but they ain’t all Medal of Honor nominees.

  19. JJ says:

    It actually makes sense for well off parents to help kids with downpayment. Except for the time period 2003-2008 bubble years the strategy was smart.

    Estate taxes are very high. Appreciation in real estate up to 500K is tax free. Mortgage payments and Mortgage Insurance are killers to young couples with children. A 70 year old mom who has a 16 year life expectency has a 32 year old daughter who is married and working and wants to buy a house in a nice neighborhood near her parents and be a stay at home mom. Mom could slip her the downpayment money which gets her into good neighborhood near her. Lowers her mortgage payment and eliminates mortgage insurance and her daughter can be a stay at home mom and grandma can come by and visit her daughter and when mom gets older daughter is nearby to help.

    Or she can say no. Daughter continues to work full time moves to a town further away, grandkids go to day care and then grandma dies at 86 and Uncle Sam takes 50% in taxes of the inheritance.

    You may laugh but if kids present the case in proper way they have the cash. My Mom and inlaws have zero cash so I was out of luck. Only thing that is scary about this us son in law or daughter in law, you have to trust them that they wont divorce and run off with half the money.

  20. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    I see fear, uncertainty and doubt – instead of what’s going on this country and the world now….?

  21. Brian says:

    “First National Bank of Mom and Dad drives Gen-X purchasing”

    It is no doubt more difficult to be a homeowner for my generation. My wife and I just happened to need to buy a home in 2006. We were married in ’04, lived in a little apartment for two years and saved for a down payment like crazy. It seemed like the price of housing went up faster than we could save though. I guess it would have been nice to have help from our parents buying the house. I don’t blame people for helping their kids. Even with prices dropping like a stone, housing is still an expensive purchase.
    But I don’t get pissed off at anyone about it. It’s like Grim said, you have to channel it into something positive. I knew if we were going to survive and stay in the house I had to do something. So I finished my degree and landed a better job in ’08. At the same time I called the Credit Union every single day for months to ask them to refinance my home. Eventually they must have found me so annoying they finally caved. It still kinda sucks watching your equity slowly melt away but at least I can afford the mortgage on one salary now.
    Some days I wish I had know about Grim’s blog in 06. But truthfully I probably would have ignored his advice and bought a house anyway. I’m pretty stubborn. I never really looked at the house as an investment but as an expense. It’s just a place to live while I’m raising my kids.

  22. gary says:

    “Prices are the lowest in five years, interest rates are also very low … existing home sales are very strong,” said Robert Burchell, distinguished professor at the Edward J. Bloustein School of Planning and Public Policy at Rutgers University. “Everybody is asking the question: If I’m interested or I need to, when do I jump in? The jumping in point is probably going to be somewhere in 2012.”

    Donuts are really yummy, playing with your BB gun can put an eye out… not brushing your teeth can lead to cavities. Now, go back and read the statement from Mr. Burchell above and and picture a 4 year old. Catch my drift?

  23. Brian says:

    19 – JJ

    I second that. Not only in the financial sense but generally it makes sense as a survival strategy for parents and grandparents to help succeeding generations in any way they can. As long as the kids they’re helping aren’t the spoiled entitled types….
    Most grandparents like to participate in raising their grandkids anyway. If they help with the downpayment, their kids might move closer to them and they get to see their grandkids more often.
    My kids love staying at their grandmother’s house which is only a few miles down the road. My wife and I love it too because it gives us a break so we can still go out on a date once in a while.

  24. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    I have to drive to Westwood this morning. Oh, to be in Prestigious Bergen County for even a brief period. Maybe, I’ll see a unicorn or two? Do they hibernate?

  25. JJ says:

    Why did you need a house? Did you have kids yet? My parents got married in 1957 and bought their first home in 1974. Most couples on my block growing up when they got to four or five kids gave up apt and bought a house. We had four kids in a two bedroom so Mom wanted a house. But if we had only two kids she would have most likely stayed. I think it is keeping up with the joneses. My brother in law got caught up in it, he had a little apt and in spring of 2006 he was last of friends to buy a house. So he jumped in with wife on an estate sale house in original condition. House was by 2006 cheap at only 380K as it was run down, plus home prices fell around 20K since 2005. Comparable houses on block in good condition were like 450K so he jumped in. Today the house is worth 280K the thing lost 20K a year for five years straight and he refused to fix it up as he did not want to put more money into the dump. So now in 2012 he lives in a run down shack. I tried to talk him out of it as I knew market was already head south. He said “I don’t want to continue wasting money renting”. I love that line and “Housing is a great investment” and ” we want to have kids right away so we need a house. He is lucky he bought such a cheap house. As 380k his purchase price is all he can lose even if houses fall to zero. My nieghbor who closed on his house in June 2006 was not as lucky. He bought at 619K. The he left house empty for three months as he was selling is old one and he painted it inside and out, put new appliances in and did the floors. By the time he moved in on September 2006 from his initial offer on April 2006 he was already down 50K. He sold the house two weeks ago, no short sale as he put down a big downpayment from sale of his prior home. He got 445K for house and he had to pay 25k Commission I guess. So he got 420K, Guy owned home a little over five years and lost 200K. Plus he paid 70K in property taxes. It would have been cheaper to book a five year disney cruise for his family than to live in that house.

    I am not looking forward to having new neighbors. The old ones were PERFECT!!! He worked six days a week, she worked five days a week and kid was in day care. House is on top of my house and prior owners were home all the time and were Italian screamers and yellers. Guy would stand next to fence and yell at top of lungs to wife in the house and she would yell back.

    Brian says:
    January 4, 2012 at 9:08 am
    “First National Bank of Mom and Dad drives Gen-X purchasing”

    It is no doubt more difficult to be a homeowner for my generation. My wife and I just happened to need to buy a home in 2006. We were married in ’04, lived in a little apartment for two years and saved for a down payment like crazy. It seemed like the price of housing went up faster than we could save though. I guess it would have been nice to have help from our parents buying the house. I don’t blame people for helping their kids. Even with prices dropping like a stone, housing is still an expensive purchase.
    But I don’t get pissed off at anyone about it. It’s like Grim said, you have to channel it into something positive. I knew if we were going to survive and stay in the house I had to do something. So I finished my degree and landed a better job in ’08. At the same time I called the Credit Union every single day for months to ask them to refinance my home. Eventually they must have found me so annoying they finally caved. It still kinda sucks watching your equity slowly melt away but at least I can afford the mortgage on one salary now.
    Some days I wish I had know about Grim’s blog in 06. But truthfully I probably would have ignored his advice and bought a house anyway. I’m pretty stubborn. I never really looked at the house as an investment but as an expense. It’s just a place to live while I’m raising my kids.

  26. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Big series for the Mags coming up. If they lose to Manc and Fulham and fall farther behind the gooners, I’ll have to call Fabius my daddy.

    I’d rather eat glass.

  27. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [25] JJ

    Your parents bought their home? I thought your dad was born in a shotgun shack that he built with his own two hands?

  28. gary says:

    And with New Jersey tops in the nation for the highest average home down payment, according to data released by LendingTree, it’s no question why approximately one in five baby boomers have gifted money or co-signed a loan for their child or grandchild’s down payment on a home.

    So, you’re telling me that this is some sort of stimulus package? And we know what happens when artificial means is used to prop up a bleeding asset. Of course, I hate to keep harping on that little pesky issue called taxes but it does seem to play a mere minor role that tends to over-looked… sort of like a minor flesh wound like a missing limb.

    At let’s not forget little things like the average price of a gallon of gas that’s up 15% over the last 5 years. Or, perhaps tolls that have risen 50% over the last 5 years or perhaps other stupid things like food and heating fuel. Yup, interest rates are low… and besides, they’re not making anymore land.

  29. Brian says:

    25 – JJ
    I didn’t really need to buy one…just wanted one. There were a lot of reasons we wanted a house. We lived in a first floor apartment and an Indian family just moved in above us. There must have been a dozen people living up there at one point. Drove us crazy. You could hear them stomping around up there day and night. I used to pound on the door and tell them to shut the hell up constantly. That was a pretty big factor in moving out of the apartment. I was pretty sleep deprived at the time.
    My wife didn’t really want to have kids there and we both really wanted to start a family. It just seemed like the next logical step at the time. We didn’t use any crazy finance tricks to buy the house. Just a traditional 30yr mortgage with 20pct down payment. Like I said we can afford to live there on one income. It was originally going to be a “starter” house but we’ll probably be there for a while. Neighbors are nice. Plenty of kids in the neighborhood for my kids to play with. Now that we can’t move up the equity ladder, I’ve just been fixing it up myself and hiring contractors to make it what we need.

  30. Anon E. Moose says:

    “The American dream is becoming more unattainable for those (ages) 18 to 34, who could very well have been first-time homebuyers in the past,” Otteau said. “But those with help from baby boomer parents still have a chance.”

    If it wasn’t for that $5,000 in seed money, kids today wouldn’t be ably to borrow the extra $100,000 necessary to overpay us for our used crapshacks as we toddle off to Belize where our Social Security checks can buy the condo and many servants. F….ing Locusts.

  31. Brian says:

    30 – Moose
    Let it go man you’re going to give yourself a heart attack. At the time I was looking for a house, I think I was more pissed off at the house-flippers that were artificially driving the price of housing up. You could spot the houses they were selling right away…Painted kitchen cabinets to make them look newer…add a second bath which was really a toilet in a closet near the kitchen to wash your hands….

    One house my wife and I looked at was a Cape cod that had been dormered out. A house-flipper type bought it and added a “second half bath” on the top floor. It was really a narrow hallway with a toilet in it. I kid you not, when a normal sized adult sat on the toilet, you had to sit spread eagle in order to fit. I couldn’t even look at the rest of the house.

  32. Confused in NJ says:

    A man and a woman whose lives literally reached all the way back to the horse and buggy days are teaching modern scientists a few things about getting old. Both lived more than 114 years — their names and exact ages are being withheld to protect their privacy — and both had about the same number of bad genes as the rest of us.

    Those genes, called variants, should have destroyed their health and even killed them long before they reached that age. Alzheimer’s, cancer, heart disease, the whole bit.

    But they didn’t, and therein lies a scientific drama. The man fought off cancer in his mid-70s and for the rest of his life relied on a single daily medication, aspirin. He was in excellent health, both mentally and physically, until just before he died. The woman was nearly as fortunate, although she grew frail after turning 108, and her mind slipped a little toward the end.

    How did they do that?

    Both had a few gene variants — variations in some genes that make us different from one another — that predisposed them to deadly diseases. All of us have some, so in that sense we are quite like folks who live well past 100.

    “Those genes also predisposed them to death, so how did they get to 114?” said Thomas Perls, founder and director of the New England Centenarian Study at Boston University.

    Perls and his colleagues found the answer to that question by completing the genome sequences for both the man and the woman in what is believed to be the first such study. Scientists from Boston University, the University of Florida at Gainesville, and the Scripps Research Institute participated in the research.

    The study, published this week in Frontiers in Genetics, found that the participants had other gene variants that somehow disabled the genes that would have otherwise killed them both.

    In other words, they had good genes that fought off the bad genes, automatically achieving what some of the best minds in science have tried to do — with very little success — through genetic engineering.

  33. The Original NJ Expat says:

    I think the real problem with parents “helping out” with the down payment these days is that they are not supplementing their kids savings toward a home purchase. They are just continuing the trend of giving an endless stream of cash to kids who have never, ever, ever, saved and will perhaps never be inclined in that direction. Why should they save? They never did before and partied right through college, using their “emergency” credit cards and I’m sure they never saw a bill for tuition iApple devices or the monthly bills associated with all that activity. I live a stone’s throw from Boston College and the local liquor store has one long counter line that feeds into three cash registers. There can be 30 BC kids in line on a Thu-Sat night. Typically they are pushing 1 or 2 30-packs of Busch Light along the floor with their feet because their arms are laden with 2-3 1.75l bottles of hard liquor. The left most cash register is for “cash only”. The check-out guys will always be yelling, “Anybody paying cash? Come right to the front!” Not a single kid ever moves out of line and comes to the front.

  34. The Original NJ Expat says:

    Far cry from my days when we collected a $1-$2 CASH from everyone and bought a half keg of Schmidt’s.

  35. Brian says:

    33 – Expat
    Like I said, if they decide to help, it shouldn’t be the type of kid that thinks they’re entitled to it. Let them live in squalor for a bit. Once they’ve had a taste of the bottom, maybe they’ll come out motivated enough to take care of themselves.

    And I prefered Pabst Blue Ribbon. Even with all of the taxes on alcohol in NJ, I see six packs of 16oz cans or six packs of bottles for $4. I probably have that in my ashtray. It’ll do in a pinch.

  36. Libtard in the City (and it's cold) says:

    Anyone here buy with help from their folks? I didn’t. I suppose being the youngest of seven might have had something to do with it. Also, waiting until I was 34 might have helped as well. That and the great investments I made during the tech bubble and got out before it burst.

  37. gary says:

    NJ Expat,

    I agree. What a coddled generation we’ve created. I pumped gas on the turnpike at 3:00 AM in 10 degree weather and went to class at 8:30 AM, cleaned toilets in a supermarket, cut grass, shoveled snow, etc. I hate to toss out the “we walked to school barefoot” mantra but we did these things because it was just the normal progression of what needed to be done. We didn’t know anything else… it was just expected. What the f*ck happened?

  38. Libtard in the City (and it's cold) says:

    I too remember chipping in for the keg. So so very much cheaper than buying cans. Anyone remember Carling Black Label. Canadian recipe, brewed in the USA. Stuff was as cheap as Milwaukee’s Beast, but tasted a bit like Molsen. Most underrated beer ever.

  39. Mf’ing cold outside.

  40. Libtard in the City (and it's cold) says:

    Gary, I too was a workaholic. Never got allowance. Have had a job since I was 10. Delivering papers, selling greeting cards door to door, mowing lawns, shoveling driveways, flipping burgers, driving forklifts, Kmart, KayBee, worked through college, never attended a Spring Break as I had to pay for school. Got my first car (still driving it) at twenty five. Have two houses now.

    I think where it all turned is when both parents were forced to work due to good old inflation and the increase in the income gap. Parents feel guilty (mainly moms) since they can’t stay home with their children like their moms did. Hence, spoil your kids to sh1t to quell the guilt. Remember your birthday parties as a kid? Take 3 or 4 kids to the movies or bowling. Now it’s a $500 affair, if you’re lucky. We have coddled the next generation to the point that they’ll end up eating cat food.

  41. 1987 condo buyer says:

    Montclair tax reval, how did that go? Libtard, gator, impact on your rental?

  42. gary says:

    Lib,

    Yes to the birthday thing. OMG, it’s gotten insane!!

  43. Duck Vader says:

    “I think where it all turned is when both parents were forced to work due to good old inflation and the increase in the income gap.”

    That’s one possibility. Other theories I’ve come across:

    a) Fewer kids per household means more money/resources per kid for pampering.
    b) Increased internal migration meant less kids of the same age growing up with you, which meant the need for more distractions.

    There’s also one significant behavioral change I noticed — when we were kids, it was “go out and play, come home alive.” Today it’s playdates more and more. There’s got to be a reason based on something quantifiable….

  44. The Original NJ Expat says:

    Young “adulthood” these days is sad on so many fronts. As others have pointed out, we late “boomers” hustled for every buck we could make. My first week at college I jumped on the opportunity to make something like $5/hour delivering those cube-shaped dorm fridges from the company that rented them out. I figured they would give you a hand truck and you’d roll them into an elevator and maybe meet some girls for a double win. Nope, they’d hand you a fridge and room number and you had to hike up 3 flights of stairs. I stretched out a T-shirt so much that day that it was a constant reminder of how hard I worked for that $40 or $50. When I graduated, ATM cards were just coming into vogue. Mostly we did real math to always maintain a balance upward of $2.76 in our checking accounts and got our first credit cards and apartments when we graduated and watched our incomes soar from $6K/year to somewhere north of $20K and breathed a collective sigh of relief and accomplishment that we made it through. Today’s kids are missing all the best parts, especially the struggle and sense of accomplishment.

  45. gary says:

    History always repeats itself. I don’t think a perpetual elevation in the standard of living exists. I think it’s cyclical and parabolic in nature. I always envision a scenario from a Dickens novel where debtors and the poor are huddled, begging for scraps and the gap between the haves and the have-nots slowly widens. Perhaps we’re at the beginning of the backside of that slope and our kid’s kids will be the victims of a lost generation.

  46. Libtard in the City (and it's cold) says:

    On the Montclair tax reval…

    Well, since our taxes haven’t gone up since 2004 for the most part, (thanks Gator) it was only fitting that we would take a decent hit. Our assessment barely dropped from where it is currently, and it appears that the average assessment has dropped 19%. Which means we are currently facing an 18% increase or so. We have scheduled a meeting with the reassessment company on Friday. Even with the appraised increase, we will still be slightly cash positive on the rental, even when leaving out the tax shelter advantages. I’ll probably raise the rent on the upstairs tenants $100 per month next year (they are due) which will get rid of about half the increase anyhow. As long as the place can remain break even, it’s really not a major concern to me. I’m the only person I know that has a cash positive rental in Montclair. Of course, a good amount of sweat equity helps as does being handy. How’d you do?

  47. The Original NJ Expat says:

    #43 Duck Today it’s playdates more and more. There’s got to be a reason based on something quantifiable….

    I see the net effect of a generation of this every day. College kids walk right across the street without ever looking to see if they might be killed my an oncoming Prius (you won’t hear it coming). It’s not arrogance, it’s two decades of being watched over instead of watching out for yourself. They never had to look both ways, their parents did it for them. The assumption is that somebody is always looking out for them.

  48. The Original NJ Expat says:

    by, not *my* an oncoming Prius. Don’t own one, but I almost got hit by one a couple years ago while stepping off a curb. I think if you don’t hear a car coming from your left you will start to step off the curb *as* you turn your head to look, thinking you already *know* there is nothing coming. I’ve since amended my behavior.

  49. Brian says:

    The whole hybrid car thing seems like a failed experiment anyway. If you want a low mileage car just by a regular old compact.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/woman-sues-honda-unlikely-place-195014842.html

  50. 1987 condo buyer says:

    #46, just curious, live in cedar grove and we had our reval a year or 2 ago.

  51. The Original NJ Expat says:

    #40 Lib Parents feel guilty (mainly moms) since they can’t stay home with their children like their moms did.

    Spot on. They get to spend so little time with their kids, so they want it all to be “happy” time. Essentially kids are now being raised by adults acting more like grandparents than parents. Discipline is out the window, replaced by repeated suggestions of alternate “good behaviors”. Why should the kids listen? Just do what you want, demand what you want, and get what you want. If that worked for me as a kid I would have worked that system until it didn’t work too.

  52. Libtard in the City (and it's cold) says:

    Brian (49):

    My $12,300 16-year old Civic hatchback still gets almost 40 miles per gallon and is quite roomy. Plus, have only replaced one major component, the alternator. Original clutch, 4th set of brakes, 4th set of pipes (which sucks) and I’m on my 5th set of tires. I might be 4 batteries in though as there is no alarm to warn you when you left your lights on. It helps that the car is essentially a go-cart. It has manual steering, power assist brakes and manual windows and door locks. How many people can’t open their windows in this weather. Not me! It also has a ghetto blaster :P

  53. The Original NJ Expat says:

    I miss my 1984 Honda CRX, my first new car ever. 1800lb, 35mpg, and that wasn’t even the HF (52mpg hwy) model. So it was essentially a “Smart Car” in mpg but with more luggage space and it was built almost 30 years ago, with no on-board computer btw (although it had a Medusa head of tiny vacuum hoses).

  54. Brian says:

    Libtard – 52
    Not to mention the prius is a really dorky looking car. I can’t imagine it’s very exciting to drive. Can you imagine if the government mandates that for safetey reasons so you don’t hit a blind person, the car’s have to have a bell or an audible whistle on them? It might as well come with a complimentary dunce cap or beanie cap with a propeller on top to complete the dorky look.

  55. JJ says:

    My cheapskate dad bought an estate sale house from original owner that was built in 1923. House was empty for a year. Thing needed tons of work. House came with a few old rusty tools in basement, hand saw, hand drill, push mower, hammer, screwdriver that were from the 1930s. Whole house was covered in multiple layers of wall paper. Taking down layers of wall paper held on by tons of horse glue and trying to paint basement walls that were originally coal rooms with filthy flight wakls that had to be washed dozens of times and plastering tons and tons of walls due to fact when trains were desiel in the 1920s to 1950s near my house it would crack all the walls and solution was more and more wall paper. I recall garbage picking sinks and wood to repair things. Heck we once put a used furnance in. New owners replaced everything, what a sin. We redid balasts and ropes in all the windorws and chalkded and painted them, rewired old push button porcelium light switches, had the original double slop sink with original washer all working. Even had the original front and back doors that we refinished. All sweat equity done after school and on weekends with no power tools, money or parental help. Stupid flipper threw out front door, back door, light switches, original brass lights on wall, windows and replaced them all with cheap vinyal windows. Asian guy off the boat who was stupid and did not understand the value of stuff. Neighbor when visited told us she was in utter shock when he took 80 year old doors and windows in mint condition and threw them to curb. She knew value but they were gone in seconds. Nobody wants an old house with cheap aftermarket windows and doors and light switches. Make a gourmet kitchen, make a fantasitic bathroom but leave the facade.

    Prior owner bought plot in 1910 for $500 bucks. They then saved another 12 years to buy a house from Sears Catalog which cost $3,000 to buy and have put up. Sklled Carpenters, Plumbers and Electricians built everything on site from scratch. The kitchen cabinets that were original were amazing. People in the know recognized it as a Sears Craftsman’s House. I had a few couples drooling who knew about houses but none had money. Was hoping house would end my in a BK or a short sale but never has. Flipper is still holding on now for 8 years!

    Comrade Nom Deplume says:
    January 4, 2012 at 9:35 am
    [25] JJ

    Your parents bought their home? I thought your dad was born in a shotgun shack that he built with his own two hands?

  56. JJ says:

    That car had an on-board computer. My 1975 Benz even had an onboard computer. My

    The Original NJ Expat says:
    January 4, 2012 at 11:50 am
    I miss my 1984 Honda CRX, my first new car ever. 1800lb, 35mpg, and that wasn’t even the HF (52mpg hwy) model. So it was essentially a “Smart Car” in mpg but with more luggage space and it was built almost 30 years ago, with no on-board computer btw (although it had a Medusa head of tiny vacuum hoses).

  57. Libtard in the City (and it's cold) says:

    Yes…it’s annoying how all of the Hybrids look the same with the flat back window and the clear glass where the trunk should be. Of course, it has little to with the MPG and more to do with selling to the sucker. From what I’ve read, the disposal of the batteries in the Hybrid cause way more environmental damage than any CO2 savings. The whole Hybrid movement is a fashion. About half of what I’ve read of the green movement is similar.

  58. Bystander says:

    Gary,

    You are too logical for your own good. Gas costs are up 300% since 2000. Taxes are up 100% if you are lucky. Electric, tuition, commuting, tolls have doubled. Most people are still asking double the 2000 average home purchase price yet investments and income have flatlined since 2000. Hey but Grim said bottom is in. I don’t see it either but I do see same game being pushed- more financial leverage, cheap car loans and govt. programs to keep people servicing debt loads. If suckers get their balance sheets repaired then logic will play no role yet again and Grim will be correct.

  59. Libtard in the City (and it's cold) says:

    JJ. My multi has the original windows. Rather than replacing them with vinyl which would last about ten years tops and would cost us about $300 per window, we hired a handyman who refurbished all of the original windows so they would seal like new and fixed all of the sashes so they would all open and close easily. I think it cost us $125 per and should hold for at least another 80 years. That is, if the renters don’t paint the interior of the windows.

  60. PGtips says:

    hahaha, please don’t pigeonhole grim

    “Manhattan apartment sales fell sharply and prices slipped in the fourth quarter, but brokers remained undaunted and predicted that a boost in buyers’ confidence would stabilize the market in 2012. ”

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203550304577139164211328678.html

  61. Xroads says:

    “I may have to give him a subsequent $10,000 to help him move to a better home for his family in the future, but knowing he can hold his own with finances otherwise — thanks to that initial $5,000 — is a huge payoff for both of us.”

    I wonder what holding your own with finances otherwise means? Do they have medical/post retirement medical/life insurance? Are they putting away for retirement or college for the kids?

  62. PGtips says:

    [2] real prices index got so low -just above the late eighties bubble pricing- hurry hurry buy now or be priced out soon

  63. Juice Box says:

    re: # 49- “The whole hybrid car thing seems like a failed experiment anyway.”

    My Hybrid battery has run down like a cheap cell phone battery in about 3.5 yrs when it was supposed to last 10….. Needs replacing under warranty…

    My next vehicle won’t be Hybrid, a gas guzzling road hogging SUV.

  64. Libtard in the City (and it's cold) says:

    We split the difference. Our Xterra gets 15 MPG but our Civic gets almost 40 MPG.

  65. The new normal is children bleeding off the wealth of the previous generation. It’s simple logic: we are in an environment in which wealth is being destroyed at rapid pace and there is a concurrent deflationary credit crisis which is going to imminently wreck the entire planet.

    Oh…and while leveraged assets are deflating, goods, necessities and commodities are inflating rapidly.

    Good times.

  66. juice (63)-

    Your real concern with your next car should be whether you can fashion a turret and install gun mounts.

  67. gary says:

    Oh…and while leveraged assets are deflating, goods, necessities and commodities are inflating rapidly.

    And the f*cking @ssclowns are trying to convince the proletarians that housing is approaching bottom. Anyone want to buy a bridge?

  68. JJ says:

    http://www.kateupton.com/

    Marc Sanchez’s Latest Girlfriend. No wonder he lost those last few games. I would be exhausted if she was my GF.

  69. JJ says:

    Leverage to buy an asset that does not throw off an income stream is gambling.

    Leverage makes sense many times. For instance back in early 1980s student loans were 8% and 30 year treasuries were 16%. My cousin maxed out on student loans and bought treasuries. Interest was defered back then to graduation. A 10K treasury put out $1,600 a year in interest in 1981 and SUNY tuition for a full year was $900 bucks. That leverage makes sense.

    Car loans for one make no sense unless you need the car to earn income, get to work. A five year loan at 5% to buy an asset that depreciates 50% over five years is crazy.
    However, in January 2011 one could borrow 100K on a HELOC at 3% and buy Muni bonds at 6% that was a gimmie.

    gary says:
    January 4, 2012 at 12:41 pm
    Oh…and while leveraged assets are deflating, goods, necessities and commodities are inflating rapidly.

    And the f*cking @ssclowns are trying to convince the proletarians that housing is approaching bottom. Anyone want to buy a bridge?

  70. Xroads says:

    Bridges are the next bubble!

    Meat,

    Children are being put in the position to depend on the previous generation. Jobs don’t pay as well benefits aren’t as good and pensions are null and void for the generation coming in. And there parents are setting them up to fail by giving them down payments for houses they can’t afford.

  71. Brian says:

    65 – Meat
    God! That’s terribly depressing. Is that true? Maybe the reason my parent’s haven’t sold their lake house (50 miles from a metropolitan area) yet is because we’re going after the wrong buyer. I’m going to tell the real estate agent to change the description in the listing right away:

    Lake Mohawk! An ample supply of fresh water to supply you and your family during the impending extinction of the human race! there are two large decks for you to mount surplus swiveling gun turrets to defend your property from attacks from land or air while sipping your Lemonade or Iced tea in the summertime. Dry basement for storage of food and MRE’s and gold bars. Large park like property to set up multiple layers of defense (barbed wire, electric fence, concrete walls lined with broken glass, etc.) Buyers are willing to accept Gold Bullion as payment. Great lot for Extinction!

    Also I wanted to know what Kate Upton looked like so I googled her. I can’t seem to find one of her with her clothes on?

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  73. yo says:

    Did we not agree,buying a house = renting from the banks= renting from gator ? Who said anything about buying an asset? You are renting from the bank a place you can rest your head on at night, while they give you the responsibilty to maintain the house in return let you keep any equity gained from it.
    It will be your stupidity if you get more than what you will pay in rent.

  74. JJ says:

    I don’t know. Most of my friends in their 40s earn way more than their parents. And kids in their 20’s are doing even better. Heck I have 23 year old nephews living at home making 55k a year with no student loans. Real issue was bubbles, bad job choices, divorces, spending, lack of savings and health issues. Not economy.

    I do know plenty of broke 40 and 50 something people. Expensive divorces, buying houses peak of market, going all in during dot com bubble, panicing in late 2008/early 2009 and selling all stock and missing rebound, staying all cash at zero interest, jumping in on gold too late.

    One old guy I met recently around 70 says his whole life every Janury 15 and July 15 he buys 10-20 year NY GO munis and Treasuries. Never looks at price just yield and never sells, holds to maturity. Never plans on selling. 2009 and 2011 when munis were cheap like clockwork he bought more. No stress no worries. Always had a good job and lives in same SI house he bought as a newlywed.

    If the average 50 year old stayed in starter home, took a steady job, bought 10-20 year bonds every six months like he did he would be set for life now. Instead get rich quick schemes in gold, stocks, real estate, excessive spending and job bouncing around that left them with no company pension has doomed them. If they were prepared the recession would have not been so bad.

    Xroads says:
    January 4, 2012 at 12:50 pm
    Bridges are the next bubble!

    Meat,

    Children are being put in the position to depend on the previous generation. Jobs don’t pay as well benefits aren’t as good and pensions are null and void for the generation coming in. And there parents are setting them up to fail by giving them down payments for houses they can’t afford.

  75. JJ says:

    kate uptons website has some heck of an opening scene.

  76. Fabius Maximus says:

    I love my Prius. Apart from the MPG, the transmission has 7 moving parts. The brakes at 70K are barely used. It shares many components with the Lexus so the Nav, bluetooth and audio are top notch and were heavily subsidised so are not reflected in the price. I have plans that will turn it into a UPS for the house so I won’t need a generator.

    The only downside I have is that RF is a bit higher than a normal car and grounding antennas for my radios is a pain.

  77. yo says:

    Greek Prime Minister Lucas Papademos told business and union leaders today that a disorderly default in March was possible if his government didn’t secure agreement with international creditors on a new economic plan.

    “In mid-January, talks begin with the troika which focus on shaping a credible economic adjustment plan for 2012 to 2015,” Papademos said, according to an e-mailed transcript of his statements. “The implementation of the agreement to reduce the debt and continuation of financing of the country depends on that. Without this agreement with the troika and subsequent financing, Greece in March faces the immediate risk of a disorderly default.”

  78. Fabius Maximus says:

    My mother in law tried to give me parenting advice once. I reminded her that in her day, she could B/Feed the baby in the front seat of a moving car while having a cigarette, with her husband driving with a bit of a beer buzz from the BBQ.

    Times changed.

  79. Xroads says:

    JJ

    Does your cousin have a pension or post retirement medical? Will he have to put %20-30 away in a 401k? Can he afford a house on 55k in his area? I would agree that 40 year olds are doing well depending on the job they hold but the “previous generation” we are talking about could come out of high school and find a decent paying job in manufacturing with bennies and pension and with a conservative approach live a decent life and even retire at a decent age. Those jobs are gone for the generation coming in and they have yet to learn what conservative means.

  80. Brian (71)-

    Why so surprised? Take an evening and watch Memoria del Saqueo. Shows you just how fast things can go from la-de-da to batshit crazy.

    BTW, I think an Argentine outcome might be a best-case scenario for how it plays out here.

  81. Doesn’t Larry David drive a Prius in Curb Your Enthusiasm?

    Just saying.

  82. SX says:

    81. Larry’s (ex) wife was a big time enviro-mentalist. She made him do it. But she is g-o-n-e.

  83. SX says:

    74. Amen!! True enough JJ.

  84. Fabius Maximus says:

    And for the CRX owners check out the new CR-Z sport hybrid.

  85. Jill says:

    Brian #21: It wasn’t a cakewalk for my generation either, at least not for those of us who moved out when we were 23 instead of freeloading off of mom and dad for seven years. I didn’t buy my first house till the day I turned 40. During the 1980’s, there was the last bubble, and you had to have 20% down. By 1996, we had $15K saved, we were able to buy for just under $200K, and we had a combined income of about 70K. We paid PMI for 2 years, then refinanced 3x for a final rate of 4.75. I heard the same things you did — buy now buy now buy now.

    A friend who bought during the 1980’s frenzy sold at a loss a step ahead of foreclosure.

    What we bought was a POS cape with good bones, a full dormer so it had 2 big upstairs bedrooms and a second full bath, and nothing updated since 1975 — no crown moldings, no tray ceilings, no “master suite”, no granite countertops. Instead we had olive green fixtures in one bathroom and 1950’s American Standard ming green in the other, stick-built 1950’s pseudo-cabinets in the kitchen with a crappy plastic laminate reface job and harvest gold appliances and cheap vinyl kitchen floor. 16 years later we are still pouring money into updates.

    It’s easy to look at the people in the McMansions and think you got screwed. But many of those aren’t even boomers, they’re Gen-Xers who were too good for the “starter homes” like mine. And my house is now worth about $360K — only slightly less affordable than it was for us when we bought.

    The real issue for your generation, as for mine, is the lack of stable jobs that give us faith that we can commit to a mortgage. The move towards outsourcing and contract-only work that only commits to 3 months at a time and now pays less than permanent jobs used to are what’s standing in the way of both a housing recovery, and the very survival of the middle class.

  86. SX says:

    Anyone know what Carole Bartz is up to? I’m looking for a hot ex-CEO with a nasty mouth and a bangin’ bod….

  87. The Original NJ Expat says:

    #56 JJ car computers That car had an on-board computer. My 1975 Benz even had an onboard computer.

    Well, it *did* have a digital clock, but it did not have a computerized ECU. The 1984 Honda CRX had the D15A1 engine, a 1488cc carbureted SOHC 12 valve engine (CVCC). Unlike the 1985 D15A3 in the CRX Si with computer control and computerized fuel injection, the 1984 D15A1 had basically an analog vacuum computer for engine control. It was a black box with maybe 50-80 small vacuum lines emanating from it. Some of the vacuum lines were inputs, some were outputs, but there was no CPU or even electricity involved, IIRC, which maybe I don’t.

  88. Juice Box says:

    re: #68 — JJ – she is an equestrienne which means Sanchez really has to pony up.

  89. BearsFan says:

    65 – meat, dead on. A little guilt, some ego, and a little self-preservation (imo) is why the boomers are sharing their wealth. God forbid the under 35 crowd is shut out of the faux american dream…they might start asking dangerous questions like “why?”.

  90. BearsFan says:

    85 – “The move towards outsourcing and contract-only work that only commits to 3 months at a time and now pays less than permanent jobs used to are what’s standing in the way of both a housing recovery, and the very survival of the middle class.”

    – and which generation is it that is making these decisions to outsource jobs again under the cover of “capitalism”, all the while laying ownership claim to the definition of “patriotism”? The plethora of Gen X CEO’s? I think not.

  91. Confused in NJ says:

    ..UK experts: Missing drug info could hurt patients

    LONDON (AP) — A British medical journal says a worrying number of drug studies are being suppressed by researchers and that the lack of public data could threaten patient safety.

    One study described by the BMJ journal found the results of fewer than half of drug trials paid for by the U.S. National Institutes for Health were published in a scientific journal within 30 months of being finished.

    The U.S. agency spends about $3.5 billion sponsoring more than 100,000 clinical trials worldwide.

    Previous studies have found one quarter to one half of clinical trials are unpublished for various reasons, including companies sitting on information that could hurt sales, journals uninterested in publishing negative results, and academics fearful of releasing results that contradict their original hypothesis.

  92. Mike says:

    Jill 85 Last paragraph is so true!

  93. Brian says:

    Jill – 85
    Same here. POS cape. (I say POS affectionately, I do like the house). I hired a contractor to rip off the old original asbestos siding and put on new vinyl and added a dormer with a bath over the summer. Looks like a new house. Closed off the breezeway and made it a full dining room. Did alot of that work myself. Busted up the front concrete steps with a rotary hammer and chisels and sledgehammer (my brother helped). Then built forms out of wood and mixed up dozens of bags of concrete in the wheelbarrow to build new ones. My father convinced me when I took my first office job when I was 20, to automatically have some of my paycheck go to the 401k and some mutual funds every two weeks. I’m lucky I did that or I would be in trouble now. We had our second child two months ago and really needed that second bathroom. You should see our first floor bathroom….tiles all original from 1951. Turquose and Maroon subway tile. It’s so old it’s coming back into style. I finally replaced the old “standard” toilet with a new toto a few years back. Made a huge dent in the water bill.

    By the way, I’ll take living with my parents and sponging off of them anyday. I had a decent job with money coming in and nothing to spend it on. I blew most of it on beer, and totally uneccesarily loud stereo components for my truck. One day while I was looking in the paper I saw a guy selling a Cherry Red 1964 Chevy Impala 2dr SS. Paid cash for it $6000. Sold it for $6000 a few years later and had a blast while I owned it. Used the money to buy my wife a ring. I told her I would never sell the harley though.

  94. Barbara says:

    One of the benefits of growing up with a dysfunctional family? Out at 19, never looked back. I have peers who are torn between the heartbreaking reality of their very old grandparents inevitable passing vs getting real psyched for the much needed 50k coming their way. I’m glad I’ve never had to deal with that psychic pain.

  95. Anon E. Moose says:

    Jill [85];

    The real issue for your generation, as for mine, is the lack of stable jobs that give us faith that we can commit to a mortgage.

    I might have thought that five years ago, but that’s no obstacle for me any longer. My willingness to pay a mortgage is directly related to income stream. Any interruption to the latter and I’ll just get to live three years (and counting) payment-free like all the other deadbeats. How little can I put down?

  96. Jill says:

    Brian #93: We DID buy the same house. *grin* Unfortunately, my DH is not handy at all and wants nothing to do with home improvements. I am the family handyman, but I know my limitations. And we’ve done NO upgrades that weren’t paid for with cash — no equity loans here. You might want to check out the Retro Renovations site/blog. It may give you appreciation for your retro bathroom.

    BearsFan #90: There are an awful lot of us. And just HOW many are CEOs, vs. the number of us that those have been put out to pasture — or are not even in middle management, let alone senior executives? Do you paint EVERY group — women, gays, black people, Jews, other groups — with such a broad brush, or just the generation before you? Just wonderin’ is all.

  97. yo says:

    Exclusive: EU agrees to embargo on Iranian crude

    Your move!

  98. Brian says:

    “The real issue for your generation, as for mine, is the lack of stable jobs that give us faith that we can commit to a mortgage. The move towards outsourcing and contract-only work that only commits to 3 months at a time and now pays less than permanent jobs used to are what’s standing in the way of both a housing recovery, and the very survival of the middle class.”

    Jill – 85
    I dunno that is definitely a factor but my feeling is that its more complex than that. I think a more dominant factor is the one Grim pointed out a few days ago. Lack of equity=lack of trade ups. I am in that exact situation. Also the “investor” types that flipped properties for a profit have left the game and moved on to gold or oil or whatever. They left people like you and me holding the bag. It seems to be just a run of the mill business cycle. The most severe one I am old enough to remember but still just a business cycle. My ill informed oppinion is that things will just revert back to the mean at some point. It may be years but it will. I can think of at least 4 houses in walking distance from my house that sold in the last few months. They were for sale for years. Foreclosures, bank sales, and short sales maybe. People parked dumpsters in front of them and gutted them. New siding, bathrooms etc. One lady got a friggin bargain on a huge victorian up the block. Gutted it. Complete restoration. Labor of love. My contractor said he knew the people working on it and she had already sunk $100,000 and counting. Place looks awesome from the outside.

    Don’t be so afraid of outsourcing either. I work in the technology industry for a large company. I am constantly faced with it. You have to be on your game all the time but there’s still good money in it if you know what you’re doing.

  99. Shore Guy says:

    If people would just buy what they need, instead of stretching beyond prudence, to get what others have, we would all be better off. Earlier today, I came across thishouse photo. Now, who here would really WANT this house?

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/Backstreets2011/BruceColtsNeckNJhouse.jpg

    There is nothing all that appealing about it. it is functional and not much more. It is also the House Springsteen was living in in 1982. This is after Born to Run, after Darkness, and after the River.

    Hey, folks. A house is where you eat and sleep and where your kids do their homework. It is not some magic measure of your value as a person. If one starts existing for one’s house instead of the other way around one has made worse than a Faustian bargain.

  100. Shore Guy says:

    So, in Texas, the cops shot a 15 year-old 8th grader who confronted them with a gun. I guess the fact that he was 15 and still in 8th grade shows that he was not all that bright. I wonder how long it will take his parents to sue the cops?

  101. Bill Gross starting to figure it out.

    “Conceptually, when the financial system can no longer find outlets for the credit it creates, then it de-levers. The point should be understood from a yield as well as a credit risk point of view. When both yield and credit are at risk the mix can be toxic. The recent example of MF Global emphasizes the concept, as does the behavior of depositors in some struggling European economies. If an investor has money on deposit with an investment bank/broker that not only appears to be at risk but returns nothing, then why maintain the deposit? Perhaps an investor would be more comfortable with a $100 bill at home in a mattress than a $100 bill on deposit with a broker – Securities Investor Protection Corporation notwithstanding. If so, system wide delevering takes place as opposed to the credit extension historically necessary for an expanding economy.”

    http://www.pimco.com/EN/Insights/Pages/Towards-the-Paranormal-Jan-2012.aspx

  102. Shore Guy says:

    Nom,

    What do you think of this? Obama made a recess appointment (Richard Cordray ) when the Senate is not in recess.

  103. gary says:

    Jill [85],

    Perfect! Great post!

  104. BearsFan says:

    95 – “The real issue for your generation, as for mine, is the lack of stable jobs that give us faith that we can commit to a mortgage.”

    – I think it’s different for some (today, in NJ). The behavior/mindset I have seen in the just married 25-35 crowd is more of a Pavlonian response developed from 10 years of marketing and brain-washing (Lexus, Home Depot, Lowes commercials, HGTV).

    Very few FTB at that age know sh*t about finances, how much utilities cost, taxes, etc. They haven’t paid for a damn thing their whole lives (as many have detailed above). Most can’t do basic maintenance short of pushing a paint roller. They just know that they are “supposed” to buy, and sure enough, there’s a convenient machine set up to confirm their ignorance, give them the money and a pat on the back, and say “congrats kid, you’ve made it”. Next comes something along the lines of “ok, we’re bringing in enough to pay the bills and eat, so now tell me about that line of credit thingy again (after they have asked mom/dad for help fixing the place up). Trial by fire.

    Concern about stable jobs? If they have one, most, esp in public sector, think it is stable and cannot be convinced otherwise. I personally know 15 teachers/cops on the job for 5-12 years, and not one of them can do basic math and realize their pensions will not be there (as expected), and why. Are they lacking intelligence? Hardly. These are very smart people who all suffer from normalcy bias. Nothing bad has ever happened or not gone their way their entire lives. Mom and Dad have taken care of everything. Each of them, to a person, responds with …”well, (they) have always figured things out, I’m sure (they) will this time.”

    The ones in the private sector seem to be a bit more wary and guarded as suggested by the original quote, but the ones in the public sector, hardly. This is all business as usual to them. I think Grim’s data a few days ago about # of FTBs vs. non is telling and dovetails this. This is just what I’ve seen, trying to call it as such.

  105. Brian (98)-

    Dolts like Geethner, Bernank, Dimon, Blankfein, et al are still treating this as a normal business cycle recession (methinks they know better but do what they do because it’s all they know…and it keeps the sheeple docile). Were this a normal, cyclical downturn, their conventional remedies would already have started working; instead, look where we are. In many ways, they’re actually tossing gasoline on the fire.

    Like BC used to say, this isn’t your grandfather’s recession. It’s a 1929-like deflationary credit collapse. And, as BC also said, it’s gonna be a long walk home.

    “It seems to be just a run of the mill business cycle. The most severe one I am old enough to remember but still just a business cycle.”

  106. JJ says:

    For 2012, in the face of a delevering zero-bound interest rate world, investors must lower return expectations. 2–5% for stocks, bonds and commodities are expected long term returns for global financial markets that have been pushed to the zero bound, a world where substantial real price appreciation is getting close to mathematically improbable.

    IF Bill Gross is right, 401k, IRAs and 529 plans will never meet peoples goals. Additionally pension plans which assume a 8% ROI will eventually go bk.

  107. RTC was normal business cycle. The early ’80s big recession was, too.

    The current situation? All bets are off.

    See you in the 16th century. Please buy me a tankard of mead if you get to the bar first.

  108. jj (107)-

    No biggie. It just means your hot, Benz-driving schoolteacher neighbor whose hubby makes high 6-figures might have to skip a Brazilian waxing now and then.

    “IF Bill Gross is right, 401k, IRAs and 529 plans will never meet peoples goals. Additionally pension plans which assume a 8% ROI will eventually go bk.”

  109. Anon E. Moose says:

    Brian [31];

    I don’t think the flippers were “driving” the price of housing up, they were just cashing in on it. And I don’t envy most of them because they typically re-sunk any gains into bigger flips, like a gambler doubling down — until the music stopped and they were left holding the bag.

    What was “driving” the escalation was the free money atmosphere in lending (other people’s money, nach). When the buck got to someone who would be forced to make good on bad loans, the gubmint conveniently bailed them out.

  110. Barbara says:

    Butter beer is the new mead, but point taken.

  111. Shore Guy says:

    Clot,

    Here ya’ go:

    The spectre of 1932: How a loss of faith in politicians and democracy could make 2012 the most frightening year in living memory

    snip

    For the most chilling parallel, though, we should look back exactly 80 years, to the cold wintry days when 1931 gave way to 1932.

    Then as now, few people saw much to mourn in the passing of the old year. It was in 1931 that the Great Depression really took hold in Europe, bringing governments to their knees and plunging tens of millions of people out of work.

    Then as now, the crisis had taken years to gather momentum. After the Wall Street Crash in 1929 — just as after the banking crisis of 2008 — some observers even thought that the worst was over.

    But in the summer of 1931, a wave of banking panics swept across central Europe. As the German and Austrian financial houses tottered, Britain’s Labour government came under fierce market pressure to slash spending and cut benefits.

    Bitterly divided, the Labour leader Ramsay MacDonald decided to resign from office — only to return immediately as the leader of an all-party Coalition known as the National Government, dominated by Stanley Baldwin’s Conservatives.

    Like today’s Coalition, the National Government was an uneasy marriage. Sunk in self-pity and spending much of his time flirting with aristocratic hostesses, MacDonald cut a miserable and semi-detached figure. By comparison, even Nick Clegg looks a model of strong, decisive leadership.

    As for the Tory leader Stanley Baldwin, he had more in common with David Cameron than we might think. A laid-back Old Harrovian, tolerant, liberal-minded and ostentatiously relaxed, Baldwin spent as much time as possible on holiday in the South of France, preferring to enjoy the Mediterranean sunshine rather than get his hands dirty with the nuts and bolts of policy.
    Meanwhile, far from offering a strong and coherent Opposition, the rump Labour Party seemed doomed to irrelevance. At least its leader, the pacifist Arthur Henderson, could claim to be a man of the people, having hauled himself up by his bootstraps from his early days as a Newcastle metal worker.

    Not even his greatest admirers could possibly say the same of today’s adenoidal, stammering Opposition leader, the toothless Ed Miliband

    snip

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2080534/Loss-faith-democracy-make-2012-frightening-year-ever.html#ixzz1iWL0cWJI

  112. JJ says:

    Other big issue is today’s kids want to go to the college they want to go to regardless of cost, major in something they like regardless of job potential and work at a company they like.

    This results in sociology graduates with 200K in student loan debt working at 40K a year jobs at the age of 30 living at home.

    25 years ago we had Baruch students who paid cash for school out of their own pockets and majored in Accounting or Finance and went straight to public accounting, banking or wall street and by 30 had big jobs and were ready to get married, buy a house and support stay at home wife.

    Today the average 30 year old male is a man child.

  113. The Original NJ Expat says:

    For JJ’s eyes only. No high-techy, just high-sucky.

    http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4221/civicvacuumhosesgm5.jpg

  114. seif says:

    I understand that there is no exact science, but what are home upgrades worth upon resale? is there a way to quantify it or a rule of thumb?

  115. Shore Guy says:

    Bathroom and kitchen upgrades always come out on the top of th elists of improvements that provide best return.

  116. Bocephus says:

    Jj wtf?! Those same bankers with their work ethic drove the economy off a cliff. As if we need more bankers.

  117. Shore Guy says:

    I think the best rule of thumb is, beyond decluttering, a coat of paint, and fixing the obviously-broken or really ugly things, one should not anticipate in getting one’s upgrade money back when selling.

  118. Barbara says:

    Seif, in my six years of looking I have seen it all so I will leave you with this. The design and taste level is just as and maybe even more important than what was upgraded and how much was spent. If it isn’t your strong point, go but some magazines and take some time to evaluate what is trendy vs what is timeless.

  119. Shore Guy says:

    #144, is that the diagram of TARP?

  120. BearsFan says:

    96 Jill – “BearsFan #90: There are an awful lot of us. And just HOW many are CEOs, vs. the number of us that those have been put out to pasture — or are not even in middle management, let alone senior executives? Do you paint EVERY group — women, gays, black people, Jews, other groups — with such a broad brush, or just the generation before you? Just wonderin’ is all.”

    I am not painting your generation with a broad brush. I just asked that of those people who are in power/decision makers/CEOs/controlling monetary policy…what generation are they from? I am not suggesting that all boomers started out with a silver spoon in their mouth in any way, either. I understand and agree with what you said, and as many have said on this blog, about living within your means, working your way up. I’m the son of a mechanic and stay at home mom…I get it.

    At the same time, it should be noted that the expansion of credit and $$ devaluation we have seen that has put us in this mess we are in has been done by boomers, for boomers. Suggesting otherwise is intellectually dishonest. If this wasn’t true, I’d ask basic questions like…what age bracket is all the wealth concentrated in this country right now? Did boomers need financial assistance from mom/dad in such large quantities to leave the nest as today? Who decided it was a great idea to promise yourself benefits for life at your kid’s expense?

    Personal situations aside, I am looking at things from a “generational” view. I do believe it will be quite the issue down the road when my generation and younger begins the clawback process of all the wealth.

  121. seif says:

    i ask because i looked at a house that was $725K in 2005. owner put about $100K in renos (kitchen, 2 smaller bathrooms and finished the basement – all nicely done) and they are asking for roughly $60K MORE for the house now…6 years later.

    I understand that people expect to get some kind of return on those things but…

  122. Xroads says:

    – and which generation is it that is making these decisions to outsource jobs again under the cover of “capitalism”, all the while laying ownership claim to the definition of “patriotism”? The plethora of Gen X CEO’s? I think not.

    Bear

    The average ages CEO=57, congressman=57ish and senator=62 these are all boomer ages not gen x. The boomers have had the majority voting block in the country of decades! And have been in charge of corporations and unions as well not gen x.

  123. Libtard in the City (and it's cold) says:

    Normalcy bias. Very interesting and you are probably right. If normalcy bias can convince a young German to kill his neighbors and friends (just one example), it certainly can convince a newlywed to buy a home with granite countertops.

    Finally broke down and bought my own compressor nailer combo at Home Depot. They had a $10 off $100 deal and 2% Upromise and the 16 guage nailer comes with a free brad nailer. I can finally stop borrowing my tenant’s tools. I’m also out $190, but then again, it can be depreciated. Let’s see you renters depreciate your tool purchases! Speaking of depreciating items, if anyone sees a leftover 2011 Weber propane grill with the side burner at a sub $500 price, please let me know (E320). Our old one (paid $350 for in 2004) got smashed by a tree during the Halloween Storm. Metlife gave me $800 for it. I ain’t paying $800 for a grill. No way, no how. Want to buy a Weber so I can keep the old one for parts to replace on the new one.

  124. Brian says:

    110 – Moose
    I didn’t say it was the only factor, just a strong one. One of many. They added to the buyer pool increasing demand. No doubt losening lending rules contributed but they seemed like a reaction to the crazy run up in prices. A misguided attempt by the government and banks/credit unions to make owning a home somehow affordable to a normal person. They should have just left things alone.
    I have no problem with somebody making a buck. It’s just particulary irritating to me because housing/shelter is a basic human need. At some point, a regular person with a regular old job just needs a roof over their head.
    I will say that housing still does generate wealth though. I mean likely for people in every sort of industry in the US. I looked at every nail, siding pannel, insulation bat, fixture etc. and just about everything they brought into my house said “made in USA”. (seems ironic but the only thing that was made in mexico was the “american standard” toilet).

  125. Shore Guy says:

    “I understand that people expect to get some kind of return on those things”

    No they don’t. They get the benefit of living in a more-modern house. They also get the benefit of not having to drop their price just to get people to consider buying it because their competition has upgraded the house along the way. Scr-ew their expectation of a return on the upgrades; the upgrades just keep the place in the running.

  126. BearsFan says:

    123 – xroads – that was exactly what I was saying. if it read as “Gen X”, then I’m sorry. I was def referring to boomers.

  127. yo says:

    Fed may push for rentals of foreclosed homes

  128. seif says:

    126 – you are right…my bad, i should have clarified. this was an investment property by the owner; they renovated and rented. now for sale. in this particular case i believe they renovated to create more value.

  129. xolepa says:

    My oldest, nearing mid-20s and an Ivy graduate does not know how to perform basic maintenance on his car, never cut grass, and refused adamantly to work in my side business. All the burden was on pops. What a sucker I am, and a lot of it has do with my other half trying to push the ‘take care of the children’ stuff . He met his girl, soon to be engaged, in college. Parents paid all of it in cash. She got her MS in meteorology and is looking to start at around $40k. Yuk. But then again, my first job out of college 35 years ago I started at $11k. In Jimmy Carter inflation years. Double yuck.
    At least that boy is in medical school now. In a decade, it may be payback time. If I’m still around, I’ll feed off his services.

  130. XXX says:

    #13 JJ Since the mid 1980’s Wall St has been dominated by the Ivy League schools .Nobody was coming out of Baruch, and getting a job in IB, institutional sales, or trading.

  131. Barbara says:

    It does seem like the hustle has been taken right out of what it means to be young.

  132. SX says:

    132. I dunno babs, my cousins kid speaks 3 languages and just got accepted to Oxford. Seems like the bell shaped curve rings both ways.

  133. Jill says:

    “If this wasn’t true, I’d ask basic questions like…what age bracket is all the wealth concentrated in this country right now? Did boomers need financial assistance from mom/dad in such large quantities to leave the nest as today? Who decided it was a great idea to promise yourself benefits for life at your kid’s expense? ”

    1) When the wealth of older Americans is calculated, it includes pre-boomers (the remains of the WWII generation as well as the Korean War generation).

    2) Depends on what year of boomer. I graduated HS into the 1973 Arab oil embargo and college into the second one. Jobs were hard to find in 1977 and even if you had one, you had to wait for hours just to put gas in your car to get to it. Interest rates were 18%, there was a recession, and things sucked. So again — enough with the broad brushstrokes. Someone born in 1947 has a completely different experience from someone born in 1955. And yes, most of my peers who bought houses in the early 1980’s DID get a nice check from mom and dad for the down payment, because in those days you had to have 20%. Either that or they lived at home until they were 30 and saved enough — but only if they had a job that paid well.

    3) Franklin D. Roosevelt. Not a boomer. For Medicare, Lyndon B. Johnson — also not a boomer. Even the oldest baby boomers were only 19 when Medicare was passed. Can’t blame us for either.

    Social Security was designed as a pay-as-you-go system. In the 1980’s, the FICA withholding was doubled for the express purpose of handling baby boom retirement. Presidents of BOTH parties “borrowed” the surplus that was collected using treasury bills. Now we are told that the US Government may not be a deadbeat to China, but it’s going to be a deadbeat to us — the people — you as well as me….because they have no intention of paying it back. You want to be outraged? Be outraged at that. It was Reagan and Bush Sr. and Clinton (OK, the kind of boomer you hate) and Bush Jr. (the kind of boomer that I hated) who put us into this mess where SS is concerned.

    Medicare is a different story. I fully expect to not be able to get the kind of medical care when I am in my 80’s that my father is getting. My best hope is that instead of having idiots like Palin screaming about “death panels”, they give me a pleasant way to check out instead of dying of exposure on a subway grate because I’ve outlived my savings.

  134. Barbara says:

    SX are you able to tell the difference between the exception vs the rule or was that just some stealthy bragging? Lmk.

  135. The Original NJ Expat says:

    #128 yo, Fed push for REO rentals.

    Does that mean FNMA will soon be buying/guaranteeing leases as well as mortgages?

  136. Brian says:

    My dad always told me that’s how the Indians did it. When you were old and no longer useful, they told you to get the heck out of the tepee and walk out into the snow pal.

    “My best hope is that instead of having idiots like Palin screaming about “death panels”, they give me a pleasant way to check out instead of dying of exposure on a subway grate because I’ve outlived my savings.”

  137. JJ says:

    My Dad had a belt, it got his house remodeled, car washed, alternators changed, lawn mowed, dinner on table.

    How can a son not know car maint? Heck my nine year old daughter helped me change a tail light last month. I had vacuming, going, laundry being done, heck had the four year old dusting and getting me tools while I fixed something this weekend. Told the 11 year to get a job and stop being a lazy blood clot just last night. It is extremely hard to raise a kid when the wife says you must pay for everything and never punish kid. And that is how 99% of parents do it now day.

    xolepa says:
    January 4, 2012 at 3:15 pm
    My oldest, nearing mid-20s and an Ivy graduate does not know how to perform basic maintenance on his car, never cut grass, and refused adamantly to work in my side business. All the burden was on pops. What a sucker I am, and a lot of it has do with my other half trying to push the ‘take care of the children’ stuff . He met his girl, soon to be engaged, in college. Parents paid all of it in cash. She got her MS in meteorology and is looking to start at around $40k. Yuk. But then again, my first job out of college 35 years ago I started at $11k. In Jimmy Carter inflation years. Double yuck.
    At least that boy is in medical school now. In a decade, it may be payback time. If I’m still around, I’ll feed off his services.

  138. Anon E. Moose says:

    Jill [134];

    In the 1980′s, the FICA withholding was doubled for the express purpose of handling baby boom retirement. … It was Reagan …. who put us into this mess where SS is concerned.

    Straighten me out here… wasn’t Reagan in office for most of the 1980’s and didn’t he sign the SS increase that was undone by subsequent Congresses? So how does he catch grief for doing something constructive about the problem?

  139. Shore Guy says:

    For our misguided Red Sox fans, and others from the eastern end of the Bay State:

    http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/01/bostons-brain-drain-the-cost-of-being-americas-drunkest-city/250727/

  140. BearsFan says:

    134 – Jill, I don’t hate boomers, and that’s probably the 3rd thing you have conflated in what I have written, so no brush in my hand, maybe yours.

    I just stated that the recent large scale outsourcing and move to contract-only-work is being initiated and overseen by boomers, in order to protect wealth for boomers. If you disagree with that, that’s ok. I’m not trying to convince anyone, just shared my opinion. But citing “year brackets” of boomers to make an argument, or saying “this was passed right when we were born” honestly doesn’t say much to me.

    That’s like saying if we legalized slavery today, and my 2 year old tells her kid 30 years from now…”not my fault, I was only 2 when it was passed”. But mom, didn’t you have 30 years to fix it? Where were you?

  141. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (140) shore,

    You do realize that the concentration of drinks is because of the colleges.

    And they are populated by hordes invading from the likes of LI and NJ.

  142. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Drinks s/b drunks. Frigging android.

  143. Fabius Maximus says:

    #124 Lib

    Do you still have the old one. I have a NG E320 that I want to covert to propane, but Weber are refusing to sell me the parts.

  144. Deep Throat ( aka Soccer Dad) says:

    Anyone else surprised that a farmer whose account has been “misplaced” by MF Global hasn’t gone postal on Corslime yet?

  145. throat (145)-

    It’d serve that bastard right.

  146. BearsFan says:

    138 JJ – just to expand, maybe some my age can relate to this…i’m 35, old man was mechanic as stated. Growing up, he did everything himself, never asked for help. He’s one of those guys that can fix anything types, never asks for help. I didn’t cut the lawn, wash, any chores etc. When I’d stick my head under the car hood ole man was working on, he wouldn’t teach me a damn thing. He was worried I’d get interested in it. He’d tell me “get out of here, your going to college, your gonna sit behind a desk”. This is not to say there was no discipline, just the opposite. If I did something wrong, I lived in fear of my father. I was expected to do good in school, be polite, work hard, and go to college. My childhood was spent basically playing football/basketball/baseball, and them busing us around all year to these things. Pretty typical. I use football to get into Ivy’s, graduate, get job at downtown bank.

    Fast forward…29, get married, buy first house under same flawed expectations as today’s crowd. Needs everything. Now here I am, strong work ethic, focused, willing etc., but I have no skill in any of the work that needs to be done. D1 athlete that can’t do much more than swing a hammer. If I have car trouble…call dad. If I need help wiring something, roof leaking etc…call dad. This terrified me. I set out to learn everything I could, took on every house project I could, gutted house, replaced all windows, learned how to do electric, framing etc.

    So in the end, should my ole man have taught me how to do more when I was younger? Is it not bad parenting, but perhaps negligent in a way? I don’t think so at all, but at the same time, I think it highlights how sometimes a blue-collar worker wanting a better life for his kid can sometimes unknowingly keep them from learning important skills for anyone. I also think most FTB today are like I wise, buying an asset that requires tons of maintenance with no idea how to do any of it.

    Not sure if this post adds any value, just more of a thought exercise as I’m now a parent, and reflecting on how I got here, how I’m gonna raise my kids :)

  147. JJ says:

    Interesting, my Dad was a blue collar guy who did not know how to fix anything, cook, clean or have any interest in lawnwork etc. Never showed us how to fix anything. He knew enough that if battery was discharging and battery was new to buy an alternator and a belt and come home throw them at us and say fix it now. You learn quick. Sometime the best way to learn is on your own. On the other hand my father in law used to be like your Dad, he wants to do it and you watch, get him tools, clean up afterwards, get him a beer and then afterwards tell him what a great job you did. Handing him a screwdriver and a beer you learn nothing. Better off if Dad knew nothing and forced kid to do it. Now you my sir know nothing so you can force your kids to fix everything. You are a lucky man.

    BearsFan says:
    January 4, 2012 at 4:00 pm

  148. SX says:

    135, Oh god no, I am just impressed by the kid, I mean Chinese, English, and French. He plays instruments. I don’t have any impact on his life or reason to brag, one minute the kid is a child the next thing you know he’s a college kid. Goes by fassst.

    My dad raised a half-crazy angry Jew. He did so by knocking the daylights out me any time I crossed the line til I figured it was just part of life. Crossing lines then has been my thing. I also love to feel the crunch of some assholes jaw against my closed fist.

    One minute we are a kid the next …. grown. Luckily I have a daughter, cause if it were a boy I might be the same way to him that my dad was to me. We tend to repeat our past. My sister turned out great. Me? Not so much.

  149. SX says:

    I came home from school in the SECOND grade roughed up on the walk home. Dad said what happened? I said I got into a fight. Who won? He asked. The other guy. I answered.

    The next day dad installed a speed bag and tutored me on the basics. Combinations and placement of punched. Second grade mind you.

    I love the guy, but holy hell. Well I never started a fight, but I was a tall skinny kid with glasses who stood out. I got picked on. I would take it for a while and then, without fail, when i reached the limit, beat the shit out of the bullies.

    So each year, without fail, I spent at least a week at home on suspension. Ever single year from the 3rd grade on. Dad said once that he is not sure that he should have taught me to fight, because once I learned I never stopped.

  150. JJ says:

    Fighting is good but I am always worried about the crazy ones. Had this kid in school had to be five foot six inch maybe 130 pounds and never lost a fight. You could beat him senseless and would get up and hit you in back of head with a brick. One day the insane nut got into a barfight in long beach, got his butt kicked in a four on one fight with four bigger guys. Well he then took he car and chased them till he ran them over. Next day in auto shop class he asks teacher if he can use hose, brings his car around to hose the blood off car like it ain’t no big thing. Got sentenced to Vehicle manslaughter. Funniest part is after that he got a job as a cab driver even though he had no license ran a red light a few years later and had another massive accident with passengers. He was a nut. Then he got some kooky weird bond desease that killed him off at 35. I always worry about folks like him. You cant kick their butt unless you kill them and then you go to jail. At best you get a few shots in let him get some shots in and move on. I still never forget him similing and hosing blood off his car. He even told whole class he did it. But not one of us snitched. Police found him on thier own a few days later. We all know richie would be hosing our blood off his car if we told.

  151. Juice Box says:

    re: #150 – SX – bully-proofing children should be a class every parent is required to teach and I don’t mean teaching them to dial 911. People should always know how to defend themselves. Everyone comes across a time and place in their lives where it is fight or flight and you should be prepared for both. Fight other people and animals too. More than once I had to kick the crap out of a dog or run like hell to get away from one that was hell bent on catching the paperboy. There was also a time when a weirdo possibly a kid toucher showed up at the park one summer evening as we were playing ball. You should have seen the frightened look on his face a bunch kids pummeled him after he made a move on one of our gang.

  152. NJCoast says:

    My inlaws helped us with our first house and were very generous along the way. We in turn were very generous to them in their waning years. I know you youngins on this board are caught up in keeping yourselves and your families’ head above water, but your parents are going to live longer and with chronic illnesses. My FIL lived until 92, my MIL 87. They didn’t have long term care insurance and didn’t want to go to any assisted living or nursing homes anyway. They wanted us to care for them as they had cared for their chikdren and we were happy to do it, but it is a fulltime 24/7 job.

    Maybe you can sleep at night knowing mom and/or dad are left unattended for long stretches of time at a nursing facility, with no family or friends, but we couldn’t. We saw how they were treated in rehab after broken hips and it isn’t pleasant.

    My MIL and stepfather had demensia in their waning years and luckily both spouses were able to care for them. But when my 90 yr old widowed FIL broke his hip, he came to live with us. Luckily he had all his mental faculties and never complained or asked for anything, but it was still a big job to care for him. I would have cared for him out of obligation but I genuinely loved him because of his kindness to our family. He took no medications and at 92 decided it was time to go and stopped eating and drinking and died at home surrounded by his children and grandchildren just as he wanted it. Since he had distributed most of his money to his children and grandchildren all along his estate owes no NJ or Federal taxes.

    We have paid for our children’s colleges, master degrees, and business start up costs. We have downsized and live a simple life so we can give to them. To me that’s what family is all about.

    I’m sure when we are unable to care for ourselves our kids will step up to the plate like we did for their grandparents. To them that’s normal.

    You reap what you sow.

  153. Fabius Maximus says:

    Insufferable in 5. 4. 3. 2. 1.

  154. Nicholas says:

    re #150,

    My father never taught me how to fight and it didn’t make a difference. I was always getting into trouble and fighting my way out of it. Temperment has much more to do with it and temperment is determined by past experiences and birth order.

    I ran paper routes and had to fight off dogs and shake down people for money.

    On the topic of your pops teaching you about home and automotive repair I wasn’t taught by my father either. He didn’t force me do any of that but when my bike broke and I asked for a new one he said “why haven’t you fixed the one you have?”. I don’t fault him for not teaching me more because the one thing that he did teach me was that if I didn’t do things for myself that they were not going to get done. That lesson was much more valuable then teaching me how to frame out a house or lay carpet.

    Brian, I see that your pops taught you the same valuable lesson…

  155. SX says:

    I had 81 papers at grade 3 or 4 and made some nice money each week. Loved getting up early and making the deliveries. Did it in midwestern winters too. The best part was the massive bag permanently attached with s hooks the front of my 5-speed bicycle. Good times!!

  156. Jill says:

    BearsFan: “But mom, didn’t you have 30 years to fix it? Where were you?”

    I’ve been out here since the late 1960’s trying my damnedest to keep some kind of fairness in this country, while too many of both my peers and yours bought the trickle-down kool-aid and kept looking down the ladder at those with no power and blaming them, while the rich fo*kers took the last few dollars out of their pockets.

    I’ve been a Cassandra since the early 70’s, but I’m just one person. And by the way, there were plenty of Young Nixonites among the boomers. Steve Jobs notwithstanding, the people who marched against the war in the early 1970’s aren’t the same people who are screwing you over now.

  157. Toon 3, Rooneys 0.

    Champions League, bitchez!

  158. Nick says:

    #153 –

    that was a great story! not everyone would do what you did for your spouse.

  159. Libtard at home says:

    Fab, I have the old Weber Genesis Silver 3 I think it was named. Would that help you?

  160. JCer says:

    JJ that guy is always a good one, i was going to post. A bullied kid shouldn’t fight, but rather do something crazy and unprovoked later.

  161. Libtard at home says:

    Silver C that is. Sorry.

  162. Anon E. Moose says:

    NJC [153];

    Had I bought what I could afford when I was ‘ready to buy’ (finished school, gooda and stable job, one new kid — more planned, decent enough DP saved) c. 2005, the most I could have gotten for my money would have been a 3 BR ramshackle cape. Mom or dad would have eventually had to live in the closet. I’m looking at the size houses that I am precisely because I anticipate having to house at least one parent as they get older. A story like yours makes me smile and nod when people tell me to downsize my expectations and how I don’t really need the “McMansion”.

  163. Anon E. Moose says:

    Con’t [163];

    When did a 4 bedroom mother/daughter become a “McMansion”?

  164. Anon E. Moose says:

    Redux [163];

    Those who plan for the future are the ants. Those who don’t are the grashoppers. Locusts are just a type of Grasshopper…

  165. I’m still reeling from the revelation that moose wasn’t spawned in a Petri dish.

  166. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Meat, Toon didn’t just win, they demoralized the red horde.

    Still need to beat QPR and Fulham.

    But at least now I don’t have to call Fabius my daddy. Not that I would—death before dishonor.

  167. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Fab, I am also getting rid of s weber genesis silver.

  168. Anon E. Moose says:

    Unrealted;

    I’m still waiting for anyone who may have made a 2012 prediction about me to back it up with some Benjamins.

  169. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    # [151] JJ Then he got some kooky weird bond desease [sic] that killed him off at 35.

    Those bond diseases killed a lot of people 30 years ago. The explosive yield had a large kill radius. Sure hope we never see another one of those go off again.

  170. chicagofinance says:

    Some footage of JJ from the office…..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ovdm2yX4MA&ob=av2e

  171. Orion says:

    Asbury Park to get Bamboozled in May: (no Bruce, but I’ll take Bon Jovi)

    http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20111212/NJNEWS/312120051/bamboozle-asbury-park

  172. Shore Guy says:

    Orion,

    I never much got into Bon Jovi but, he seems like a decent guy and I am glad to see the focus on AP. Oh, can we all park in your driveway?

  173. joyce says:

    Libtard,
    If you’re willing, I was wondering if I could ask you some general questions about your experiences being a landlord with your multi-family property. If yes, my email is below… if not, no worries.

    joyce.conway187@gmail.com

  174. plume (167)-

    QPR has rolled over and died. Also, they won’t have Barton (red card).

    Fulham is a little trickier. They are rounding into really good form & really stuck it to the Van Persies good.

  175. Champions League or bust.

  176. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    It’s been a good sports night. Toon wins handily, and both Boston teams thumped their New Jersey counterparts in convincing fashion.

  177. chicagofinance says:

    Where is JJ?

    Gay club Escuelita in fight with State Liquor Authority
    By DAREH GREGORIAN
    A Manhattan nightclub is fighting fire with drag queens.

    Club Escuelita, the legendary gay club that’s been a fixture near the Port Authority since 1996, says the State Liquor Authority is trying to put it out of business over two minor violations.

    In papers filed in Manhattan Supreme Court, Escuelita charges the SLA is cutting corners in a bid to take away their license, a move the club charges is clearly aimed at clearing gay, lesbian, transgenders and minorities out of the gentrifying area.

    “I also believe that we are no longer welcome on West 39th Street as minorities scare the mostly white tourists who patronize the newly built and expensive boutique hotels” on the block, owner Sayvon Zabar said in an affidavit.

    Justice Geoffrey Wright signed an order this morning temporarily barring the SLA from moving against the club pending a full hearing on Jan. 12, when he will also consider the club’s request to order sensitivity training for the agency.

    The SLA is going back to court tomorrow to try to convince the judge to change his mind. One of the club’s lawyers, Tom Shanahan, said many of the club’s customers and performers – including several drag queens – will be on hand to show their support at the hearing because “we can’t figure out why the SLA is being such a drag.”

    The agency notified the club that it would not renew their liquor license, which is set to expire next month, because of two incidents last year. In one, the club’s manager was arrested for allegedly assaulting a patron. In the other, a bartender was accused of selling a drink to an undercover minor.

    Zabar said in court papers the manager denies any wrongdoing, and noted that the criminal case against him is still pending. He also said the club is investigating the alleged sale of alcohol to a minor, but noted the club, which had been admitting people 18 and up, had a strict wristband policy in place to insure that no minors were served booze. The club – which has been a launchpad for the likes Lady Bunny and RuPaul – wrote the SLA in December to say they’re now barring people under 21 from going to the club.

  178. chicagofinance says:

    Where is JJ?

    Gay club Escuelita in fight with State Liquor Authority
    By DAREH GREGORIAN
    A Manhattan nightclub is fighting fire with drag queens.

    Club Escuelita, the legendary gay club that’s been a fixture near the Port Authority since 1996, says the State Liquor Authority is trying to put it out of business over two minor violations.

    In papers filed in Manhattan Supreme Court, Escuelita charges the SLA is cutting corners in a bid to take away their license, a move the club charges is clearly aimed at clearing gay, lesb!an, transg8nders and minorities out of the gentrifying area.

    “I also believe that we are no longer welcome on West 39th Street as minorities scare the mostly white tourists who patronize the newly built and expensive boutique hotels” on the block, owner Sayvon Zabar said in an affidavit.

    Justice Geoffrey Wright signed an order this morning temporarily barring the SLA from moving against the club pending a full hearing on Jan. 12, when he will also consider the club’s request to order sensitivity training for the agency.

    The SLA is going back to court tomorrow to try to convince the judge to change his mind. One of the club’s lawyers, Tom Shanahan, said many of the club’s customers and performers – including several drag queens – will be on hand to show their support at the hearing because “we can’t figure out why the SLA is being such a drag.”

    The agency notified the club that it would not renew their liquor license, which is set to expire next month, because of two incidents last year. In one, the club’s manager was arrested for allegedly assaulting a patron. In the other, a bartender was accused of selling a drink to an undercover minor.

    Zabar said in court papers the manager denies any wrongdoing, and noted that the criminal case against him is still pending. He also said the club is investigating the alleged sale of alcohol to a minor, but noted the club, which had been admitting people 18 and up, had a strict wristband policy in place to insure that no minors were served booze. The club – which has been a launchpad for the likes Lady Bunny and RuPaul – wrote the SLA in December to say they’re now barring people under 21 from going to the club.

  179. Fabius Maximus says:

    #160 Lib

    Alas, I can’t use it as the Silver has smaller burners. I just refurbished my mother in laws Silver with new grills, handles and a paint job.

    The E320 is a stonking grill, and one of the best I have owned. I either convert mine to propane or get a plumber in to run a new gas line from the house.

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