A Look at NJ/NY Price Dynamics

From the WSJ:

Local Prices Slow to Mend

The housing market is improving across the nation, but the New York metro area is lagging behind.

According to the closely watched S&P/Case-Shiller home price index, which was released Tuesday, prices in the largest 20 metro areas were up a seasonally adjusted 0.9% in May from April and were down 0.7% when compared with May a year ago. But in the New York metro area, prices are recovering far more slowly, up just 0.6% in May from April and down 2.8% from a year ago.

Economists say cities and towns in New York and New Jersey are experiencing an uneven recovery where affluent areas are generally improving while working-class communities remain in distress. The New York area is “still suffering a bit from what happened during the financial collapse,” says Maureen Maitland, vice president of S&P Indices. “There was a lot of job loss for people in financial services in the area, and that hasn’t come back.”

The market is especially troubled in New Jersey. Data compiled for The Wall Street Journal by Zillow.com shows that of the 25 cities in the metro area with the biggest year-over-year price declines as of June, nearly 70% are in New Jersey.

Three of the four largest declines were in New Jersey, with Roselle, down 12.5%; Plainfield, down 10.5%; and Union Township, down 10.3%. All three towns have been grappling with job losses. In the past few months, prices improved across the state but it isn’t clear whether the trend will continue.

“It’s urban and rural markets where home prices are the worst,” says Jeffrey Otteau, president of Otteau Valuation Group, a New Jersey-based analysis firm. “That’s where the greatest number of subprime loans originated, where unemployment is highest.”

Even in some affluent New Jersey towns with stable prices and just a handful of foreclosures, appraisers are being exceptionally conservative when placing values on properties. “Appraisers cannot ignore distressed sales as possible comparable sales,” says Ken Chitester, a spokesman for the Appraisal Institute, an industry trade group.

This entry was posted in Economics, Housing Recovery, New Jersey Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

119 Responses to A Look at NJ/NY Price Dynamics

  1. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    frist

  2. chicagofinance says:

    doh! :(

  3. grim says:

    Biggest price drops since June 2010

    Roselle, NJ -12.5%
    Nanuet, NY -11.1%
    Plainfield, NJ -10.5%
    Union, NJ -10.3%
    Monsey, NY -10%
    Mount Vernon, NY -9.9%
    Rahway, NJ -9.6%
    Port Chester, NY -9.4%
    Bayonne, NJ -9.2%
    Ossining, NY -8.9%

  4. Mikeinwaiting says:

    All hat no cattle.
    ” Draghi: He shoots down ideas the ESM (the permanent rescue fund) can get a banking license, saying the current legal structure does not allow it to become an eligible banking partner to the ECB. At this point, essentially all that was drawn from his comments last week has been shot down. European shares and the euro have staged a 2-3% reversal since the press conference started. “

  5. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [3] grim,

    Some days I feel that the Brig is on that list. Very close to pulling off and renting short term, then relisting in the spring season, which I missed. Basically, whichever we get first, tenant or reasonable offer, is what we go with.

  6. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Initial Jobless Claims: 365K vs. 370K consensus, 357K prior revised (prior week 353K). Continuing claims -19K at 3.29M.

  7. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Nom being a landlord s**ks , I am aware you know the downside issues in theory. I did it for many years (10+) in practice, real pain in the A**.

  8. 1987 Condo buyer says:

    Landlord: same here, that 1987 condo was rented from 1993-1999, college kids, abandoned mother and child, lots of fun. But fortunately i was able to buy it during the 87 bubble and sell it before the next bubble so I could take that real life (not paper) $50,000 loss!

  9. Shore Guy says:

    From the last thread: “His positions on Wage controls are a good explanation why Healthcare Reform will not impact whether a company hires or not. ”

    Over the short to medium term, employers are going to LOVE the healthcare law. Why As soon as the health exchanges are up and running, employers will be able to stop insuring staff. Sure, they will need to pay a fine; however, they will gladly do so and the government will gladly accept the fine and work to keep it low enough to prevent companies from readopting employer-paid healthcare. Just like 401 (k)s essentially shafted the middle class while politicians trumpted the “portability” this gave employees, this will serve as a mechanism for big-government types to get a single-payer system adopted under the guise of portability and cost savings through efficiency.

    With business being freed from the cost of paying for and administering healthcare benefits, executive bonus pools will grow larger. So, it is a win for companies and a win for government. As the song says, who could ask for anything more?

    Back to the saltmines, people. The machine needs your labor.

  10. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [5] Nom – You have a lot of equity so you don’t have to bring a check to the closing table, right? Just sell and be done with it.

  11. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Nom if it has not sold it is the price pure & simple , price aggressively & they will come. You have been around here to long to fall into the “I’m going to rent it till price offered to me meets my expectations” trap.

  12. Anon E. Moose says:

    Seif [131, prev thread];

    cling to it, hug it, love it. it is all the campaign has right now

    Yep, tens of millions of people voting his O-ness back to the faculty lounge are just clingers and haters, all out of step with the elightened elites such as you. How bad can the economy really be if they’re still serving afternoon high tea at the Manifesto Bookstore, right?

    Speaking of clinging to the negative, this from the WSJ:

    Team Obama can also have no illusion about the purpose of its campaign strategy. It doesn’t kid itself that its attacks on Mitt Romney and Bain Capital will cause voters to flock to Obama. If anything, Mr. Obama knows his tactics cost him donor and voter enthusiasm on his own side.

    The goal is to drive up Romney negatives. The payoff the campaign hopes for is that voters who would never vote for Mr. Obama will prefer to stay home rather than vote for that rich so-and-so Romney. The White House strategy is a “shrink-the-electorate” strategy. Team Obama will play the Mormon card at some point too. Count on it.

    This is part and parcel with the “they’re all the same anyway” meme from media outlets everywhere — if they’re all the same might as well just stay home and don’t bother voting. Voter turnout is doom for this unpopular incumbent.

  13. Juice Box says:

    IS Strongman O really giving the Rebels in Syria shoulder fired anti aircraft weapons?

    On Tuesday, NBC News reported that the Free Syrian Army had obtained nearly two dozen surface-to-air missiles.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/02/obama-order-supporting-syria-rebels?newsfeed=true

  14. Painhrtz - Yossarian says:

    Moose hope and change?

    By the way we are sending clot over as a house warming gift. Congratulations!

  15. scribe says:

    From the Washington Post:

    Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac won’t be allowed to reduce loan balances for troubled borrowers
    By Brady Dennis and Zachary A. Goldfarb, Published: July 31

    The federal regulator for government-backed mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac said Tuesday that he will not allow the firms to reduce loan balances of struggling homeowners, frustrating the Obama administration as it looks for ways to boost a floundering economy.

    Edward J. DeMarco, acting director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA), said the agency’s analysis showed no sure-fire financial benefit to letting some mortgage holders reduce their loan amounts. He also warned that such a move could cause some borrowers to default intentionally in hopes of getting taxpayer aid.

    “We concluded that the potential benefit was too small and uncertain relative to the known and unknown costs and risks,” DeMarco told reporters after a months-long agency analysis.

    DeMarco’s decision came despite prolonged pressure from the Obama administration, Democratic lawmakers on Capitol Hill and housing advocates, who argued that principal reduction is an essential tool in softening the fallout of the housing crash.

    Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner chastised DeMarco for his decision in a letter Tuesday, even as he acknowledged DeMarco’s right to forbid principal reduction in his role as independent regulator for Fannie and Freddie.

    “Five years into the housing crisis, millions of homeowners are still struggling to stay in their homes and the legacy of the crisis continues to weigh on the market,” Geithner wrote. “You have the power to help more struggling homeowners and help heal the remaining damage from the housing crisis.”

    Geithner noted that the FHFA’s own analysis showed that Fannie and Freddie potentially could save $3.7 billion by participating in the administration’s housing program — and taxpayers could save $1 billion. A Treasury analysis accompanying the letter said that up to a half-million homeowners could benefit from the program.

    In explaining his decision, DeMarco released a 15-page paper outlining the internal analyses that agency officials used to try to determine the costs and benefits of allowing principal reduction at Fannie and Freddie, which have been under government conservatorship since 2008 and hold about half of the country’s loans.

    More here:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/fannie-mae-freddie-mac-wont-be-allowed-to-reduce-loan-balances-for-troubled-borrowers/2012/07/31/gJQAEClCNX_story.html?hpid=z4

  16. seif says:

    12 – Mouse, your response is just an angry rant apropos of nothing; the “cling to it” is in reference to the romney campaign being based on that specific lie(s). it has nothing to do with the “tens of millions blah, blah, blah…”

    “out of step with the elightened (your spelling mistake…not very enlightened) elites”
    – it is AWESOME and ASTOUNDING how you are using that line about other people while defending the guy who pays no taxes, offshores all his money, has a dancing horse in the Oylmpics competing against the horses of princes and princesses from other countries (true), has 2 harvard degrees, was the son of a wealthy auto exec, could likely fit 5 of your new home into his Utah ski lodge, etc., etc., etc…..AND an independent non-partisan institute announced yesterday that he wants to lower his taxes and raise yours…assuming you are not a 1% like JJ.

  17. reinvestor101 says:

    If there’s one thing worst than an stinking liberal, it’s a stinking RINO and it’s to my eternal frustration that Romney is the head of this damn ticket and he’d better begin moving to the damn right in a damn hurry. We in the damn T-Party are resurgent and we ain’t gonna be quiet and we don’t give a tinker’s damn about independents. This is a damn takeover:

    http://news.yahoo.com/mitt-romney-better-move-says-emboldened-tea-party-175919258.html

    This is a fight for the heart and soul of the damn party and stinking RINO’s like AWest and Shore guy have to be expunged from the damn party. We’re looking to cut cut cut, get rid of needless regulation and privatize every damn thing under the damn sun.

  18. reinvestor101 says:

    >>The federal regulator for government-backed mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac said Tuesday that he will not allow the firms to reduce loan balances of struggling homeowners, frustrating the Obama administration as it looks for ways to boost a floundering economy.

    Edward J. DeMarco, acting director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency (FHFA), said the agency’s analysis showed no sure-fire financial benefit to letting some mortgage holders reduce their loan amounts. He also warned that such a move could cause some borrowers to default intentionally in hopes of getting taxpayer aid.<<<

    Dammit. I APPLAUD THIS MOVE. Let them eat cake dammit. They knew they had a damn mortgage, why should they get the hell out of it? Shlt, it's the poor banks that need help and we've had to give our money to them to help them because of these shiftless lazy ass homeowners.

    I can hardly wait until we in the T-Party completes our take over. You ain't seen nothing yet. WE WILL ALWAYS SUPPORT THE DAMN JOB CREATORS and that means tax cuts and getting the damn red tape out of the damn way so they can create some damn jobs. People who over mortgage themselves aren't creating any damn jobs. Let them eat cake and nothing should be cut from what they owe. That will hurt the poor banks who they took advantage of. Hell, leaving those mortgages just as they are will mean the bank creates jobs when they take them over and rent them.

  19. inquiring minds says:

    reinvestor101 – can we please know your opinions on gay marriage and contraception? also, do you want to meet me at chic-fil-a for lunch? you sound like my type of guy! or girl!

  20. Juice Box says:

    For the next 95 days are people going to be at each others throats around here? Left or Right. Either way you are screwed…..

  21. A.West says:

    Re101,
    What T-party meetings are you attending? Let me know the next one you’re attending and I’ll try to meet you there.

    I suspect that this is the sort of T-party you’ve actually been attending:
    http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103369/erics-tea-party

  22. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [21]. Juice,

    Oh, no doubt. We’re screwed. I’m just supporting the guy who I think will use more lube and will hand me a towel after.

  23. Ernest Money says:

    The plunger-handling will continue unabated, no matter who wins the popularity contest for Game Show Host-in-Chief. Voting implies you’re complicit with the crooks, whether from the idiot team or the fascist team.

    Only thing left between now and the reconfirmation of our descent into oblivion is the entertainment of what is sure to be a doozie of an October Surprise.

  24. Ernest Money says:

    If Bojangles starts to look shaky in the polls, we’ll be at war with Iran by the end of September.

  25. Ernest Money says:

    Don’t know what Mittens’ Hail Mary could be, since he hasn’t employed the Waffen SS thugs that usually run Repub campaigns.

  26. funnelcloud says:

    NOM #5 Just how do you define a “reasonable offer”? with most sellers 20% above what buyers consider proper pricing, Buyers and sellers are to far apart. Places will sell if priced right, my friend just sold his condo within 2 wks of putting it on the market there were 12 other units in the complex for sale, he needed to get out and had the equity to compromise, he listed aggressively 20k under the lowest of the other listings and accepted an offer 8k off the list price 2 weeks and he had a contract. He will be moving into his new house this week. The problem today is that most sellers consider a “reasonable offer” the amount of money they “need” to clear their debt, not going to happen in this market.

  27. reinvestor101 says:

    >>>inquiring minds says:
    August 2, 2012 at 11:16 am

    reinvestor101 – can we please know your opinions on gay marriage and contraception? also, do you want to meet me at chic-fil-a for lunch? you sound like my type of guy! or girl!<<<

    What the hell is wrong with you? You want guys and girls? Let me tell you something, you sick liberal, I DON'T PLAY THAT CRAP. Take your damn sexual confusion and shove it.

    I'm a damn red blooded meat eating rock ribbed American male. The only damn place you will find people like me is in the damn republican party. We the damn bright line in the damn sand against sick perverts like you., commies, real estate terrorists, muslim radicals, gays, illegals, non-paying homeowners, liberals, RINO's , damn MSNBC, Nancy Pelosi, welfare cheats, abortion, tree huggers, Pat and Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream.

    Yeah, I like Chick fil A. What the hell are you gonna do about it?

  28. Statler Waldorf says:

    “reinvestor101” is obviously not a real person (no doubt another poster here).

    Just scroll past.

  29. Painhrtz - Yossarian says:

    Juice I want chairman O to lose for one reason and one reason only to hear the caterwalling of racism from likes of Bill Maher and the rest of the liberal establishment. That should finally put the race card to bed. Sh!t, if I thought Rombot would be any different I would actually vote for him but he will be the 4th term of the Bush presidency but with the most presidential hair of the bunch.

  30. Bagholder Brian says:

    I wouldn’t do that. Judging from his posts, I don’t think he’s housebroken.

    15.Painhrtz – Yossarian says:
    August 2, 2012 at 10:50 am
    Moose hope and change?

    By the way we are sending clot over as a house warming gift. Congratulations!

  31. Anon E. Moose says:

    Pain [15];

    Thanks (I think), but I’d hope for the tax bill I’m paying that someone would stop him at the town border. [All in jest, Meat…]

  32. Ernest Money says:

    I wouldn’t hesitate to take a dump all over Brian’s kitchen floor.

  33. Anon E. Moose says:

    Scribe [16];

    Yeah, I liked that news when I read it. Memo to underwater deadbeats: no superhero is coming to bail you out. YOYO.

  34. Ernest Money says:

    moose (34)-

    …unless the underwater deadbeat happens to be named Jamie Dimon.

  35. seif says:

    29 – thanks for telling us something we all know. how about taking a stab at WHO it is? that would be impressive.

    “just scroll past?” – reinv101 is a classic part of this board. that’s like saying “scroll past JJ.” we know that nothing he says is true or based in reality but in small doses reading his posts provide great entertainment.

    also, does statler waldorf not post under a different name here as well? maybe statler IS reinv101????

  36. Shore Guy says:

    First, BO is not sending MANPADS to the Syrian rebels — Turkey is. It may be a fine distinction but, it is an important one, especially when they turn an extra one against an El Al plane sometime in the future.

    Second, green shoots: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/02/us-jobless-claims-idUSBRE8710OU20120802

  37. seif says:

    there is an Ozzy documentary on SHO these days in which Tommy Lee tells a story about Crue touring with Ozzy; Ozzy drags Tommy into his hotel room and takes a dump in the middle of the floor…and then starts to pick up the sh*t and rub it all over the walls and windows. Great documentary. I think it is called For The Love of Ozzy; they entail how he was in his WORST condition ever (drugs, alcohol, etc) during the filming/running of The Osbournes series.

  38. joyce says:

    Ok, Hain did nothing unlawful in 2008 but she made people uncomfortable. And in 2009 she was shot by her husband while video chatting. Is it possible/likely that she was shot while she wasn’t looking? The article doesn’t say. But again, what is your point? How is this ironical? Because she opened carried at soccer games and at the grocery store, did you assume she had the gun in her hands ready to shoot anything and everything all day long? It’s good you ‘noted’ this story as it has nothing to do with the right of guns to be used for self-defense.

    Your retort is that arming people (such as old ladies) might not protect them in some cases. Of course. It gives them a chance. What chance do they have unarmed? In your example the lady reaches for her gun and gets disarmed… how is that different IN ANY WAY if she was unarmed to begin with?

    “Guns for personal protection need to come with a higher level of training to cover situational events. That old lady needs to be able to show she has a sufficient level of competency to drive a car, I feel the same level of competency should be a requirement for guns”

    I think some people need a higher level of training when they get dressed in the morning before going out into the public.
    Call for an amendment to the constitution; otherwise the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It’s a phrase that needs no interpretation. It doesn’t matter how many lawyers have twisted its meaning over the years. It has nothing to do with hunting, it has to do with self-defense and defense from tyranny.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/ice-t-guns-gun-control_n_1696801.html

    That article left out Ice T’s quote regarding tyranny. At least it left in, “He also said he’d be glad to turn in his weapon after everyone else. ”

    121.Fabius Maximus says:
    August 1, 2012 at 11:25 pm
    #111 Joyce
    The point here is that the gun is not necessarily an equalizer. There is a certain level of irony on how Hain died. I’m not condoning it, juts noting it. Arming old ladies and even young ones may not protect them and in some cases inflame the situation. For instance, old lady gets mugged with a knife, goes for a gun and gets disarmed, has now created a worse situation.
    Guns for personal protection need to come with a higher level of training to cover situational events. That old lady needs to be able to show she has a sufficient level of competency to drive a car, I feel the same level of competency should be a requirement for guns

  39. Anon E. Moose says:

    seif [17];

    Spelling police, huh? You vastly overestimate your importance.

    an independent non-partisan institute announced yesterday …

    You mean the Brookings report authored by Adam Looney? “Previously, Looney was the senior economist for public finance and tax policy with the President’s Council of Economic Advisers” (linky)

    Try again. You might even consider departing from your Daily Kos talking points.

  40. joyce says:

    from Alan Gura, the lawyer who argued for the gun-owners in the Supreme Court’s McDonald v. Chicago case: “No criminal is going to say, I was gonna hold up that liquor store, I was gonna hold up that couple in the park, but I couldn’t get the permit to get the gun, so I’ll give up.”

  41. joyce says:

    (last one)
    Ice’s comments ring particularly true when you think of the unintended consequences of prohibitions of any kind. Strict laws aimed at ridding the streets of recreational drugs, adult prostitution, and gun possession are all well-intentioned, but they ignore the economics of prohibition: most law-abiding citizens are deterred by strict laws, but the people who put a higher premium on possessing those illicit goods will find a way around the law.

    When someone is as hell-bent on massacring people at a movie theater as the Aurora gunman was, it is safe to assume they would have gone as far as needed to obtain the proper weapons for such a murderous toll. If not guns, perhaps explosives; if not explosives, perhaps other means of chaos.

  42. Painhrtz - Yossarian says:

    http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/national_world&id=8759065

    maybe China should ban knives in addition to guns. Moral of the story sh!t f*ck crazy will find a way

  43. seif says:

    “Try again. You might even consider departing from your Daily Kos talking points.”
    – says the guy quoting Hot Air to back him up.

    That’s a clown statement, bro.

    disclosure: i do not read The Daily Kos. I do not read it daily, weekly or annually.
    disclosure2: WTF is Hot Air? Clown statement, bro.

  44. Happy Renter says:

    [44] “I do not read The Daily Kos. I do not read it daily, weekly or annually.”

    Would you read it in a box? Would you read it with a fox? Would you read it here, or there? Would you read it anywhere?

  45. Bagholder Brian says:

    Classy. Is that how they do it in Hunterdon County? What’s the matter? Too much peachy Belgian beer giving you the splats?

    Hey so, now that everyone around here is buying houses and fully employed etc., you must be getting back into the realtor game right?

    33.Ernest Money says:
    August 2, 2012 at 12:46 pm
    I wouldn’t hesitate to take a dump all over Brian’s kitchen floor.

  46. seif says:

    i will not read it in a car, i will not read it in a well-stocked microbrew and single malt bar,
    i will not read it on LSD, unless Nom wants to do it with me,

    i guess JJ is not hear today. he is out celebrating Chick Fellatio appreciation day.

  47. Painhrtz - Yossarian says:

    I’m a liberal on a plane, I’m a liberal on a train, I’m a liberal cause I don’t like my brain

    Who uses the phrase clown statement bro other than idiots who emulate Charlie
    Sheen and OWS types

  48. scribe says:

    Let’s get back to talking real estate.

    Maybe we could do a njrereport_economic.indicator based on the number of long-term posters who’ve bought houses.

    If Gary has a full-time job, and his house has been sold, and he’s looking for another house – to me, that’s an economic indicator unto itself :)

    All we need is for JJ to buy a beach house and invite us all over! :)

  49. chicagofinance says:

    I’ve known who RE101 is for at least 2 years…..I figured it out….

    seif says:
    August 2, 2012 at 12:50 pm
    29 – thanks for telling us something we all know. how about taking a stab at WHO it is? that would be impressive.

  50. A.West says:

    Who, Chifi? I remember a period of conjecture, followed by a disappearance for a while.

    Scribe,
    Using NJrereport poster’s home buying activitites as an indicator would be a mistake. People who show up on this board probably showed up because they were hoping to buy, but frustrated with prices. Then prices went down some. It was inevitable that some of them, like me, would proceed to buy a house. Kind of like the way people on forums discussing Rolexes end up buying Rolexes, or people on BMW forums buy BMWs.

  51. A.West says:

    I think I’m going to change my pseudonym. To that of a character from a favorite novel.

  52. Ragnar says:

    I have returned.

  53. jcer says:

    my guess is JJ and re101 are one and the same but it is purely conjecture on my part.

  54. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    JJ works for Knight Capital. He’s in the fetal position doing a little pooping of his own.

    i guess JJ is not hear today. he is out celebrating Chick Fellatio appreciation day.

  55. seif says:

    49 -name calling. typical response.

    Bryce Harper coined it…get a clue, bro.

  56. houseshaveneeds says:

    #45 would one read it in jj”s underwear?

  57. Ernest Money says:

    Pretty sure Bryce Harper would take a bat to seif if they ever met.

  58. scribe says:

    A. West,

    Sentiment indicator

    Initially, most people here felt prices were way out of bounds. Buying equals a sense that prices have come down enough for those aware of the bubble to feel if it’s not a bottom, at least prices have declined to much more realistic levels.

  59. scribe says:

    I thought re101 was Pat?

  60. Painhrtz - Yossarian says:

    Quoting a 20 year old baseball player. Jeez no wonder I was in the dark I don’t put much stock in what athletes say let alone enough to quote them.

  61. Anon E. Moose says:

    Timmy [44];

    says the guy quoting Hot Air to back him up.

    Once again and predictably, elevating form over substance.

    >Looney worked for Obama for two years, 2009-10, on the same economic advisory board that brought us “shovel-ready jobs.”<

    So you're saying that isn't true; that looney didn't work for the Obama administration? His Brookings bio page says he did. If it is true, then what’s your argument that the criticism of Romney you cited isn’t quite so “independent” as you suggested? *crickets*

  62. chicagofinance says:

    scribe? shh…….

  63. scribe says:

    chi,

    ?

  64. reinvestor101 says:

    >>scribe says:
    August 2, 2012 at 2:50 pm

    I thought re101 was Pat?<<<

    Lady, watch your step. Whereas I don't give a tinker's damn about the feelings of these hard ankle knuckle head RINO's and stinking liberals, I try to be a gentleman when dealing with ladies, so except for Pat (who is the absolute worst poster on this damn board), I generally leave the ladies the hell alone. Watch your step, else you could wind up like Pat and banned to a netherworld.

  65. chicagofinance says:

    Just so the intent of my comments is not lost during the bickering with the member of the Elite 140…….I have real concerns with the current administration, the majority in the Senate, and individuals who focus on what is on the surface the moral and correct approaches to governance and social programs.

    I use the term “feel good legislation” to describe those who have a position that appears to have a moral authority. However, if you are willing to read the follow article, consider the discussed program an extreme example that is really troubling.

    Yes, on its face it seems to be a progressive and enlightened thing to do, but thinking further, if you were a company with a choice of geographies, would you want to locate in Sweden? If you already were domiciled in Sweden, what would be the consideration of hiring the next worker knowing the kinds of employee benefits that were required? Also, if you are the best and brightest (e.g., Elite 140), would you choose to work in a country that drags the entire workforce down and backward with mandated programs……..

    For those of you who think that I engage in over-the-top complaining about Western European attitudes of the U.S……consider this story and realize the prism through which we are being evaluated……in my opinion, this “extreme” example is certain doom in the long run…..

    WSJ
    LIFE & CULTURE

    For Paternity Leave, Sweden Asks if Two Months Is Enough

    By JENS HANSEGARD

    Jim Butcher’s decision to join Sweden’s army of “latte dads” last year didn’t win him any popularity contests with family and friends back home in the U.K.

    “When I told my friends in England, they spat up their tea,” said the 35-year-old head of communications for digital-music company Spotify Ltd., which is based in Stockholm.

    “They thought my out-of-office reply—that I was gone for six months—was a joke.” His father, a self-employed bricklayer, was concerned his son was jeopardizing his career.

    But Mr. Butcher had a serious agenda for his half-year hiatus: Spending uninterrupted time with his newborn daughter.

    Sweden’s paternity-leave benefits, enjoyed by citizens and foreign residents alike, are the most generous in the world—and a debate is under way nationwide over whether to extend them even further. Sweden should require men to take a minimum of three months’ leave, instead of the current two months, some politicians argue.

    Fathers currently can take off work for as long as 240 days with a government-backed paycheck. Even if a father decides to take a more modest leave than allowed, he must take at least two months before the child is 8 years old to receive the government benefits.

    Scores of dads can be seen during typical business hours strolling the streets of Stockholm, Gothenburg and other big cities pushing a stroller with one hand and nursing a cup from Espresso House or Wayne’s Coffee in the other. It isn’t uncommon to see men feeding babies and changing diapers in Stockholm’s famous Djugarden park island, which is within view of some of the city’s biggest companies and financial institutions.

    Since being instituted in 1974, the paternity-leave policy has evolved from being a mechanism to encourage women to join what was a depleted workforce in the 1970s, to serve as a tool for gender equality and home stability today.

    The Swedish government will pay 80% of a parent’s salary—up to a cap of about $65,000—for 13 months. One parent can sign over all but two of these months to the other.

    Government statistics show the vast majority of fathers take off at least the minimum two months. And about 72% of working-age women living in Sweden are employed at least part time, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. This is more than in most other countries. Iceland and Norway—Nordic nations which also grant generous leave benefits, have more women in the workforce.

    “If only women stayed home with children, women would be at a considerable disadvantage compared with men,” says Johanna Noren, a mother of one who works as a systems developer at Sweden’s Royal Library. Although she supports the idea of fathers taking a third month of leave, “it’s better if people make decisions on what they want and believe, rather than on what they feel forced to do.”

    Her husband, Marten, returns to work as a computer-systems developer on Wednesday, after going on paternity leave in October. Their son, Elis, was born in November of 2010.

    In addition to allowing him to share a lot of time with his son, “it also felt important for me and my wife to share the parental leave equally,” says Mr. Noren. “We said we wanted to split it evenly from the get-go and that’s what we did.”

    The generosity comes at a cost. Exact figures aren’t available, but a report published by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development estimates public spending on parental leave cost 0.8% of gross domestic product, or the equivalent of $3.7 billion in 2007 alone.

    Nevertheless, many Swedish politicians are arguing for even stiffer paternity requirements, including requiring dads to stay home a third month.

    The majority of the speaking time at the yearly policy meeting of liberal Folkpartiet party in October was devoted to the issue of extending paternity support. (The Folkpartiet is a member of the country’s ruling coalition, led by the country’s deputy prime minister.)

    Although the party rejected the proposal to add a required third month, the number of members in favor of the idea is rising. “The fathers of today are not cavemen with clubs in their hand, but men that take an ever increasing responsibility for home and family,” wrote leading party member Lisbet Enbjerde in a November editorial in the Helsingborgs Dagblad newspaper.

    Tina Acketoft, a Folkpartiet member of parliament, says “it would have been unthinkable” to see a Swedish man taking care of children in the 1950s. “The fact that it is (now) legislated makes it socially acceptable.”

    Not everyone welcomes the potential for the government to get even more deeply involved in families’ home lives.

    “We don’t mind if fathers want to take paternal leave, but this is something that families themselves should decide, not the government,” says Emma Henriksson, a member of parliament for the conservative Christian Democrats party.

    Although she is in favor of extending parental leave, she says families should decide how they allocate it. “We don’t want the government telling families how to plan their lives.”

    At Swedish companies such as global retailing powerhouse Hennes & Mauritz AB, long spans of parental leave and time off for new fathers are standard. H&M pays the difference if an employee’s salary goes above the government-set salary cap.

    “Our company makes no difference between mothers or fathers taking parental leave; it’s all parental leave to us,” says Jeanette Skijle, H&Ms human resources chief. She adds that H&M sees parental leave-taking as an opportunity for its employees to try out different jobs and develop new skills. She noted the manager at H&M’s store in Kalmar, located in southern Sweden, is on six months paternity leave.

    “The fathers taking leave are actually more worried than we are (and) wonder how we’ll cope in their absence,” she says, adding each H&M employee has a person appointed to take on his job if he goes on parental leave. “People think they’re irreplaceable, but frankly, nobody is irreplaceable.”

    As the chief executive of videogame maker Electronic Arts Inc.’s Stockholm-based studio, 47-year old Sean Decker found this out firsthand. The Los Angeles native took two months of parental leave after his daughter’s birth and managed it by delegating key tasks before he left. He only took two serious phone calls while off, he says.

    Even though things apparently hummed along fine at the office without him, he found a stark reality at home alone with the child, with his wife back at work.

    Before going on leave, Mr. Decker says he thought: “You get up, you eat—how hard could it be?” He was looking forward to getting a lot of personal tasks accomplished during his time off. He was wrong.

    “You’re pretty much switched on all day, except for a brief nap midday,” he said. “And then there was the food. One week she liked eggs, the next day she didn’t…It’s really hard to schedule life with an 11-month baby.”

    Mr. Butcher, from Spotify, had originally planned on spending his six-month leave drinking coffee and writing a script while taking breaks in the park to watch his daughter play.

    In reality, “I’d be lucky to have 30 minutes for myself a day. The rest was just endless cleaning, feeding, changing and picking up.” He says that, two weeks into it, he wondered if he was going to last the entire leave, “but I’m happy I did it and could bond with my daughter.”
    —John D. Stoll contributed to this article.

  66. seif says:

    61 – you are all hat, no cattle. show us some your press clippings of all the beatings and shootings you are responsible for.

    you are a clown, bro.

  67. chicagofinance says:

    scribe says:
    August 2, 2012 at 3:02 pm
    chi, ?

    SHHHHHHHHHH!

  68. Happy Renter says:

    TIME article I came across today, entitled “Why Don’t More People Use These Free Services?” in the Saving & Spending section.

    http://moneyland.time.com/2012/06/27/why-dont-more-people-use-these-free-services/

    Example #1: E-book borrowing from the library.

    Example #2: “TV-everywhere” options that cable companies provide that most people aren’t away of.

    And “free service” #3 that TIME is wondering why more people don’t make use of?

    Example #3: Food stamps.

    WTF? Food stamps are a “free service” that TIME magazine needs to shill, like they are some kind of consumer goodie that the sheeple should be tapping into?

  69. chicagofinance says:

    East Brunswick’s finest citizen…..since Libtard vacated obviously…..
    http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2012/2012-148.htm

  70. A Home Buyer says:

    5, Nom –

    Our first house we tried to sell at the peak, it was on the market for 1 year because I couldn’t convince my partners to sell for a realistic price. They were stuck on what they wanted to get out of the house, and what they remembered from the boom times. When they finally listened to me, it sold within 1 month. We only had to drop it 30K, but it sold.

    The house we just bought, we bought for 20% under what they paid in 2005. The sellers were desperate because they were getting burned by real estate and wanted out.

    It’s a rough market regardless of what anyone or any statistic says. You need to pick a bare minimum price you are willing to accept, offer the place at that price, and see what happens. If you have to lower your price even once, your letting your emotions get in the way. The Market is like the Borg. Resistance is Futile.

    Just my humble 2 cents.

  71. Nicholas says:

    Happy Renter,

    Admittedly the FEDs are on a push to extend food stamp benefits as widely as possible during this downturn. They have been advertising this around so that people are aware of the service. They say to a blog/website/news organization “hey we will pay you xxx dollars to advertise that food stamps are available and if you are eligble your missing out”.

    News organization says to themselves “whats the best way to package this? We will write an article about free stuff you are missing and then stab it in there” and voila! You now have your crappy three point article where food stamps is now awesome and free.

    We all know that food stamps are not free. We paid for them with our tax dollars. They are not awesome as you have moved from a net producer to a net taker in society when you use these programs. Net takers get passed up by net producers. Remain a net taker at your own peril and the peril of your country.

  72. scribe says:

    Chi,

    ????????????????????????????????

    :)

  73. cobbler says:

    chi [69]
    Swedish unemployment rate had been holding remarkably well, and only deteriorated to 8.8% in the last year, mostly due to PIIGS imports drop. In my career, I did actually work for a (partially) Swedish company (ABB) for some time, and from what I heard then from my peers, getting a professional job in Sweden was meaningfully easier than stateside. I believe this is still the case.

    Mandatory paternity leave otoh is a stupid idea; while it certainly develops the appreciation of the motherhood in males, I am not at all sure that forced father-child bonding is good for the baby.

  74. reinvestor101 says:

    >>>scribe says:
    August 2, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    Chi,

    ????????????????????????????????

    :)<<<<

    Lady, ifin I were you, I'd be watching my damn step–just as you were advised previously. YOU ARE BEING WATCHED and when that occurs most people have the sense to KEEP THEIR DAMN HEADS DOWN.

    Don't let Chi get you in trouble trying to speculate. NO ONE KNOWS WHO I AM—HELL ON A BAD DAMN DAY, I HAVE A PROBLEM REMEMBERING MY DAMN SELF. There's been useless speculation on this damn board on and off every since I showed up here FIVE YEARS AGO. JUST ACCEPT ME AND MOVE THE HELL ON AND STOP WITH THIS DAMN QUESTIONING AND SPECULATING. Clot comes on here and says all kind of crazy shlt and no one bothers him or his stinking dog. JJ comes on here and no one speculates about him. I come on here to DEFEND AMERICA against liberal and RINO malcontents like A West, Shore Guy , real estate terrorists like Stu and his wife and others and people want to question WHO THE HELL I AM. I AM WHO I AM–now deal with it and cut this crap out.

  75. Ponderer says:

    Agree. Me thinks it must be Grim or JJ…just to stir things up on occasions. Outside shot on Clot. Come on fellas…it’s ok to come clean – no one reads reinv’s posts anyway.

    [29] Statler Waldorf says:
    August 2, 2012 at 11:53 am
    “reinvestor101″ is obviously not a real person (no doubt another poster here).

    Just scroll past.

  76. Ernest Money says:

    seifdolt (70)-

    Sorry. Still laughing at the thought of Bryce Harper taking batting practice on your skull.

  77. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [47] seif,

    Acid is the only thing that will help make sense of Daily Kos.

    Or a lobotomy.

    Had a dig here but everyone’s already piling on seif and he knows my position anyway.

  78. yo says:

    Sweden works 26 hours a week.They ranked number 9 the most productive country in Europe.

    We can learn about job sharing from Germany , unemployment pay the difference in salary,instead of taking unemployment check doing nothing.This will bring down the unemployment rate.

    surprise-who-works-the-most-hours-in-europe

    http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/30/surprise-who-works-the-most-hours-in-europe/

  79. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [74] A Home Buyer – clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap-clap

    Post of the day:

    Our first house we tried to sell at the peak, it was on the market for 1 year because I couldn’t convince my partners to sell for a realistic price. They were stuck on what they wanted to get out of the house, and what they remembered from the boom times. When they finally listened to me, it sold within 1 month. We only had to drop it 30K, but it sold.

    The house we just bought, we bought for 20% under what they paid in 2005. The sellers were desperate because they were getting burned by real estate and wanted out.

    It’s a rough market regardless of what anyone or any statistic says. You need to pick a bare minimum price you are willing to accept, offer the place at that price, and see what happens. If you have to lower your price even once, your letting your emotions get in the way. The Market is like the Borg. Resistance is Futile.

    Just my humble 2 cents.

  80. yo says:

    If Swedish works half a day a week or three 8 hours days in a week,taking off for two months does not really make a difference

  81. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [82] yo – That’s probably average over the course of the year, and yeah, they get a ton of time off. I work closely with a lot of people from Sweden (they’re over here a lot, we’re over there, etc.) as we’re all one company. What I glean as the trade-off is that the Swedes are pretty much all work and no play at work, but damned if you’ll make them get in a minute early or leave a minute late. For better or worse, we Americans seem to take more and more of a round-the-clock ownership for our jobs as we gravitate up the food chain but that concept is the fcukng devil to Europeans. They effectively compartmentalize their “work time” where they are much better workers than us in the 9-5 timeframe, but are HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, HUGE, FCUK-YOUERs when it comes to putting in any extra time. I’m not sure which is the better approach, I’m leaning toward theirs.

    Sweden works 26 hours a week.They ranked number 9 the most productive country in Europe.

  82. yo says:

    expat,
    yes, it is average 26 hours a week

  83. Juice Box says:

    As soon as you folks realize how bad ZIRP is either on the Left or Right hopefully both sides will realize everything else is just noise.

    Me I am not hopeful..

  84. Ernest Money says:

    I like what happens when an athlete or business guy from Sweden hits the jackpot. About 100% of the time, they GTFO…usually to a country that doesn’t have a 99.7% tax bracket.

    Amazing how getting your hands on some capital turns you into a capitalist.

  85. Ernest Money says:

    juice (88)-

    By the time everybody realizes ZIRP is financial ebola, we’ll be living a 16th century lifestyle.

  86. seif says:

    81 – Nom, you are compassionate…but don’t worry…boos on the road are cheers.

  87. morpheus says:

    79: “Agree. Me thinks it must be Grim or JJ”

    Paul is Muad’dib ?

  88. Mikeinwaiting says:

    morpheus- the last shall come first.

  89. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [93] and the first shall come last…on alpacas down the road;-)

    morpheus- the last shall come first.

  90. Shore Guy says:

    Krugman stepping further into The Twilight Zone?

    Of course , his solution to everything, spend more:

    According to the New York Times columnist and Nobel Prize laureate, you know what would end the economic slump in 18 months? Aliens.

    Paul Krugman probably feels like an alien himself these days, considering Washington is completely ignoring his unwavering arguments for more fiscal stimulus as President Obama and Congressional Republicans try to out-deficit-reduce each other. So maybe that’s why Krugman has aliens on the brain.

    While talking off the cuff on Fareed Zakaria’s GPS program (Zakaria is also a TIME Magazine contributor), Krugman conjectured about what would happen if aliens landed on earth and attacked us.

    “If we discovered that space aliens were planning to attack, and we needed a massive build-up to counter the space alien threat, and inflation and budget deficits took secondary place to that, this slump would be over in 18 months,” Krugman says, referencing an episode of The Twilight Show in which an alien threat was manufactured to bring about world peace.

    snip

    Read more: http://moneyland.time.com/2011/08/16/paul-krugman-an-alien-invasion-could-fix-the-economy/#ixzz22RURsxZX

  91. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [89] clot – That is *exactly* the deal and they’re fine with it. Same deal (even worse) in Denmark. No celebrities, uber-rich, movies stars, pop stars, etc. also no poor or homeless. They’re just thick down the middle. It’s a good place to be above average and almost impossible to be destitute. I knew a Swede who spoke several languages and worked in several countries because he was so fluent and affable. He told me that there are so many safety nets in Sweden that it would just take too much effort to be homeless and unemployed. You would give up and take a job because it would just end up being so much easier with less intrusion by the government than burning all the extra calories it would take to *try* to do nothing in their society. Here’s an example of how different it is. If a blizzard hits but doesn’t require plowing by midnight Friday, guess what? No snow plows. Trains derail, cars are stranded. People in the business of snow removal don’t get double and triple time on weekends because they don’t work weekends.

    I like what happens when an athlete or business guy from Sweden hits the jackpot. About 100% of the time, they GTFO…usually to a country that doesn’t have a 99.7% tax bracket.

    Amazing how getting your hands on some capital turns you into a capitalist.

  92. My Homepage says:

    It can be difficult to write about this topic. I believe you did a fantastic job though! Thanks for this! 409223

  93. Brian in Seaside says:

    Sorry, still laughing imagining Seif taking a dump in your kitchen, then wiping his butt with a zerohedge blog printout.

    Ernest Money says:
    August 2, 2012 at 6:20 pm
    seifdolt (70)-

    Sorry. Still laughing at the thought of Bryce Harper taking batting practice on your skull.

  94. relo says:

    Yeah, but you know, whatever.

    ” I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.”

  95. Shore Guy says:

    Would that more municipalities took the approach of NOT asking for tax increases:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/03/us-usa-california-citytaxes-idUSBRE87203Q20120803

    Cash-strapped California cities back off asking voters to hike taxes

    snip

    “Voters are getting very angry that their government keeps coming back and asking for more money,” said Darry Sragow, managing partner of the law firm SNR Denton in Los Angeles and a long-time Democratic campaign strategist. “The voter is saying, ‘I’m cutting back, you should be doing the same thing.'”

    snip

  96. chicagofinance says:

    reinvestor101 says:
    August 2, 2012 at 6:00 pm
    people want to question WHO THE HELL I AM. I AM WHO I AM–now deal with it and cut this crap out.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEUUS_kjI4k

  97. cobbler says:

    X-pat [96]
    Never heard about train derailments anywhere in Scandinavia because of lack of snow removal. Any links?

  98. Shore Guy says:

    (Reuters) – San Bernardino, the third California city to seek bankruptcy protection since June, is saddled with huge pension debt and will produce details of those unfunded obligations within 15 days, its mayor said on Thursday.

    The city filed for bankruptcy protection on Wednesday, citing over $1 billion in estimated liabilities and up to 25,000 creditors, many of whom are the city’s own employees.

    The city, 65 miles east of Los Angeles, also listed estimated assets as over $1 billion.

    Patrick J. Morris, San Bernardino’s mayor, said in a telephone interview that the bulk of the city’s debt was due to “unfunded liabilities related to pension and benefits” for the city’s employees, and “obligations to employee groups in labor contracts.”

    snip

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/02/us-usa-sanbernardino-debt-idUSBRE8711YU20120802?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=71&google_editors_picks=true

  99. Fabius Maximus says:

    #39 joyce,
    The great irony is that a woman who was so vocal on 2nd amendment rights to protect herself, goes to the grave with GSW on her death certificate. The circumstances are secondary.
    Part of the problem is that 2nd amendment defenders seem to me, to see gun control, as an all or nothing deal. I think of it more in first amendment terms. You have the right to bear arms, but there should be some natural limits. You have the right to free speech, but you don’t have the right to shout “fire“ in a movie theatre.

  100. Fabius Maximus says:

    I think we can actually have this discussion and take “over-the-top complaining about Western European attitudes of the U.S” out of the discussion.
    For the simple reason that what is put forward for Sweden, is not that far away from what is already in place for Canada. If you read the Canadian rules, there is up to 52 weeks of coverage available. Outside of 15 weeks that has to be taken can be the mother, the rest can be assigned to the father.
    http://www.strocel.com/canadian-maternity-leave/
    Here is my main point, Germany, Sweden, Canada may have what you would consider draconian Labor laws, but at the end of the day they work. They are very successful functioning economies and you cannot dismiss them. For instance, in Germany there is no such thing as overtime. If you need the employee to work over, well that shows the need to employ another worker. If an employee has to work over, they have to take that time as vacation. That is the main reason you see Europeans disappearing for months at a time and why they will not work past 5:01. For Germany, I thinkl the rules went into effect at then end of the 1940’s

  101. Fabius Maximus says:

    #105 goes to
    #69 chi

  102. Fabius Maximus says:

    One of the funniest things I read today.

    “Gymnasts have an unfair advantage in every subsequent DWI test they have to take in life. I mean, these chicks can probably blow a .12 and still do backflips on a straight line. How bombed do they gave to be before they can’t walk a straight line???”

  103. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [74] buyer,

    I get that but we were late to market and we have a floor. If things work as hoped, we can pull, rent, and relist in spring and lose no money. In fact, we would make money on relo. Even if we don’t rent, we have downside protection, just less of it. Finally, the relo terms provide an incentive for seeking only a high initial offer, even if it gets whittled down in AR.

    So in a perverse way, we have an incentive to hold out for our price if we think the prices will be as stable next year

  104. Fabius Maximus says:

    #105 Redux,
    One of the more interesting points under the Canadian plan, is that, the (conservative ) Canadian government is looking to extend the benefit to self-employed workers. They are working through the logistics of the fact that self-employed do not pay into an insured scheme like normal workers, to cover the benefit, but I think they will get there.

  105. AG says:

    Its all going to sh_t. Buy your sh_tboxes now while you still can. Nothing like being illiquid when you need to make a move.

    Folks, they aren’t passing executive orders for no reason. They are getting ready for what we have all been talking about for years now.

    Have fun Amurika.

  106. AG says:

    Or be priced out forever lol!

  107. AG says:

    77,

    Cobler,

    Ever hear of the term block busting? Its an old Brooklyn tactic still alive today. Consider Sweden a block busting victim on a national scale ok?

  108. Fabius Maximus says:

    #110 AG,

    I think the number of executive orders has gone way down since GWB moved on. I think the precedent for EO and private contracting the military will be Dick Cheneys enduring legacy.

  109. AG says:

    You are going to have to fight for what you want to keep. Aint that the truth. Time for the American fat ass to get off the couch.

  110. AG says:

    113,

    Fabius,

    You must have mistaken me for another political wh_re. They all play for the same team so why do you wh_re yourself out like that?

  111. Fabius Maximus says:

    Mistake you, nO, I would never do that,
    I see you front and centre and I will always take a pin to the bubbles you float.

  112. AG says:

    116,

    Fabius,

    You must be smoking some good stuff tonight, I applaud you for that. Now take that political horse sh_t out of your mind so you can think more clearly.

    By the way, I want to ask you a question. Do you really believe that foreign national we call Presidemt is legit?

  113. AG says:

    Its all going to sh_t no matter what cream is sold here.

    Let that fact soak in real good folks. There is no getting ar0und it. Only mitigating the damage.

    Good night,

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