Movin’ Out

From the Huffington Post:

More Young Americans Moving Out Of Mom’s House

Americans are feeling increasingly confident in the future and more and more are striking out to set up their own homes, a move that is helping propel the housing recovery.

The deep financial crisis and recession of 2007-2009 kept many Americans from leaving their parents’ nests and drove others back into them, putting a sharp brake on the pace at which new households formed.

Household growth averaged about 500,000 per year from 2008 through 2010 – less than half the rate seen at the height of the housing boom in the years just before that. The pace in 2010 was the weakest since 1947.

But the rate at which individuals or families are getting their own homes picked up over the past two years, underpinned by a steady if tepid economic recovery and gradual labor market gains. In 2011, households increased 1.1 million and they grew closer to 1.2 million last year.

“The rise in household formation bodes well for the housing recovery. Instead of having too many houses, we are turning to a situation where there aren’t enough,” said Guy Berger a U.S. economist at RBS in Stamford, Connecticut.

Indeed, housing has turned from the economy’s sorest spot to its brightest, with new building activity at 4-1/2-year highs. Housing activity in turn spurs related areas like furniture.

The worst recession since the Great Depression of the 1930s cost the economy 8.8 million jobs and drove the unemployment rate up to 10 percent.

Dim job prospects and growing financial stress undercut the pace of household formation – a central force behind housing demand – even though the population kept growing at a rate of about 2.7 million per year.

An analysis by economist Timothy Dunne at the Cleveland Federal Reserve Bank found there was a shortfall of 2.6 million households from 2008 through 2011 compared to what pre-recession trends would have suggested.

The gains are being felt primarily in the rental market, where rising demand has spurred a sharp pick up in construction of apartment buildings. In contrast, the U.S. homeownership rate hasn’t risen much from a 15-year low reached in early 2012.

“We are going to see more recovery in the rental market, in the very short run. As the market improves, people will start to face higher rents and over time, that will spill over into the owner-occupied market,” sai d Gary Painter, a public policy professor at the University of Southern California.

New home completions have lagged the increase in household formation, leading to a tightening supply.

According to RBS’ Berger, more than 1.3 million new residential structures should have been completed last year to keep pace with household growth. But only 651,400 homes were finished, the second lowest on record.

“Given that the stock of homes available for sale is already very low, inventories alone are unlikely to meet the demand presented by these new households,” said Berger.

This entry was posted in Demographics, Economics, Housing Recovery. Bookmark the permalink.

69 Responses to Movin’ Out

  1. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  2. grim says:

    From the NYT:

    What Is Middle-Class in Manhattan?

    DRIVE through almost any neighborhood around the country, and class divisions are as clear as the gate around one community or the grittiness of another. From the footprint of the house to the gleam on the car in the driveway, it is not hard to guess the economic status of the people who live there.

    Even the landscape is carved up by class. From 15,000 feet up, you can stare down at subdivisions and tract houses, and America’s class lines will stare right back up at you.

    Manhattan, however, is not like most places. Its 1.6 million residents hide in a forest of tall buildings, and even the city’s elite take the subway. Sure, there are obvious brand-name buildings and tony ZIP codes where the price of entry clearly demands a certain amount of wealth, but middle-class neighborhoods do not really exist in Manhattan — probably the only place in the United States where a $5.5 million condo with a teak closet and mother-of-pearl wall tile shares a block with a public housing project.

    The average Manhattan apartment, at $3,973 a month, costs almost $2,800 more than the average rental nationwide. The average sale price of a home in Manhattan last year was $1.46 million, according to a recent Douglas Elliman report, while the average sale price for a new home in the United States was just under $230,000. The middle class makes up a smaller proportion of the population in New York than elsewhere in the nation. New Yorkers also live in a notably unequal place. Household incomes in Manhattan are about as evenly distributed as they are in Bolivia or Sierra Leone — the wealthiest fifth of Manhattanites make 40 times more than the lowest fifth, according to 2010 census data.

    Most researchers define the middle class by calculating the median income for a place, and grouping people into certain percentages above or below the absolute middle.

    By one measure, in cities like Houston or Phoenix — places considered by statisticians to be more typical of average United States incomes than New York — a solidly middle-class life can be had for wages that fall between $33,000 and $100,000 a year.

    By the same formula — measuring by who sits in the middle of the income spectrum — Manhattan’s middle class exists somewhere between $45,000 and $134,000.

    But if you are defining middle-class by lifestyle, to accommodate the cost of living in Manhattan, that salary would have to fall between $80,000 and $235,000. This means someone making $70,000 a year in other parts of the country would need to make $166,000 in Manhattan to enjoy the same purchasing power.

    “Soon, there will be no New Yorkers,” proclaimed the Sunday magazine of The New York Times in 1907, in an article that detailed how families making $1,000 to $3,000 a year — $24,000 to $72,000 a year in today’s dollars — were being pushed out because of increasing rents, and servants’ wages, as well as the crushing cost of ice and coal. Adjusted for inflation, laundry alone for a family cost $115 a week. A pound of chicken? $8.08. Rent, on the other hand, for a “small, middle-class flat in a decent, but unfashionable locality,” would seem to be a bargain in today’s market, at the price of $272 per room per month.

    In 1968, New York magazine documented the mad scramble for affordable apartments in a cover article detailing the extreme lengths to which average people went to secure one. “Surgeons have postponed operations, housewives have gone back to work, hippies have cut their hair and families have destroyed their pets,” the magazine reported. “Little hope is held out for the middle-income ($15-20,000 a year) people, career girls who do not want roommates and couples with more than one drawer-sized infant.” Brownstones that had sold for $125,000 in 1958, according to the article, were selling 10 years later for twice that much (in today’s dollars, a jump from $827,000 to $1.65 million).

  3. Ernest Money says:

    No one will be spared. No one.

    It will all collapse in Manhattan, too.

  4. Ernest Money says:

    Eventually, all the bad debt must be acknowledged and written down.

    The vigilantes are beginning to look at Japan. Soon, they will move there from Europe.

    Then, they come for us.

    Yield must be paid. Mf’er.

  5. Fast Eddie says:

    This one has been for sale for months. We went to 2 open houses on this one over the span of 7 weeks. There were two realtors last time we went. The one ushered us around like puppies and was cold and condescending the whole time. She said the town “warrants” the price when I asked why it wasn’t reduced – as if my money wasn’t green enough. We had interest in considering it; afte the last visit, I have no interest:

    http://www.trulia.com/property/3098109434-9-Lori-Ct-Woodcliff-Lake-NJ-07677

  6. Fast Eddie says:

    We went to this one last week. The Parkway runs through your back yard, the house smelled, was dirty and not as updated as the pictures would suggest. Some homes are like a really bad kiss – they just register zero on the “move me” scale. They need to chop another 100K off to gain traction:

    http://www.trulia.com/property/3090187297-116-Clairmont-Dr-Woodcliff-Lake-NJ-07677

  7. Essex says:

    Now one could argue—and I suspect many pro-free trade, pro-globalization conservatives would make this argument—that expanding production overseas is good for Jeep, and what’s good for Jeep in the long-run is ultimately good for the jobs they sustain in the U.S. job market. And if you dig deep into the PolitiFact ruling, that’s their essential objection to Mitt Romney’s ad: It implies that it would be better for Jeep to create more jobs in the U.S. in the short-term, instead of expanding overseas production. So in the end, PolitiFact’s beef with the Romney ad was an entirely argumentative disagreement about what course of action Jeep should take, not a factual objection to Romney’s true statement that Jeep was going to start building cars in China. However, disagreeing about the implications of manufacturing Jeeps in China doesn’t justify calling Romney a liar for accurately stating Jeeps would be manufactured in China. PolitiFact didn’t even dispute that, and even conceded the “Lie of the Year” was built on a “grain of truth.” Rather, PolitiFact explicitly argued producing Jeeps in China is a good thing:
    The production of cars in China is a sign of Chrysler’s growing strength in overseas markets. It would like to build Jeeps in China to sell in China. It is not outsourcing American auto jobs.

  8. Fast Eddie says:

    One day on Trulia. Let’s take really sh1tty pictures and try to hide as much as possible. And another thing; any time you see a giant fish on the wall, you know the house is going to be a problem:

    http://www.trulia.com/property/3106445052-82-Forest-Dr-Hillsdale-NJ-07642#photo-1

  9. Fast Eddie says:

    Sold for 542K in 2003, no pictures and it claims to be a Tandy and Allen ranch. Can you say uh-oh?

    http://www.trulia.com/property/3105480738-125-Saddlewood-Dr-Hillsdale-NJ-07642

  10. Fast Eddie says:

    This one sold for 662.5K in 2008, asking 599K now, will be lucky to get low to mid-500s. We were in this one two weeks ago, it’s a dump. And the taxes are “only” a shade under 15K. Hey, but we’re prestigious and that’s all that matters:

    http://www.trulia.com/property/1042186262-25-Oak-Trail-Rd-Hillsdale-NJ-07642

  11. grim says:

    6 – Andover went ($599.9k) – the quaint but choppy little place in Wyckoff that we couldn’t find initially. So did Van Blarcom ($629.9k) finally, I bet it gets a new coat of paint by summer, I really thought that one was a good deal. Karen in Mahwah gone too (we saw it last week, $629k, nice backyard but too far). That awesome ranch with the huge windows on Wyckoff Ave ($625k) hit UC too, so that’s gone.

    How come every house I show you gets sold, and every house you see on your own stagnates forever? Hint, I don’t waste your time showing you all that other crap.

    Heck, even that terrible ranch on Hoover (across from the house I like) that I said a builder would buy is gone. I know you don’t believe it, but the dirt alone was worth the 400 grand. Even that other remodel I said was a great deal in Woodcliff lake (awesome street, front/back tri-level was an odd layout) went. 8 days man, 8 days, bargain at $455k.

  12. Fast Eddie says:

    How much did Van Blarcom settle for? And wasn’t Karen listed at 679K? Or is that the other house in Mahwah? The one with the Hardy plank siding.

  13. grim says:

    Didn’t close yet, Karen was the cul-de-sac all the way up near the Thruway, not the hardiplank house (Franklin). That one is still on.

  14. yome says:

    I dont get why the media insist on Teos story. Let it go already.

  15. Anon E. Moose says:

    Yo [14];

    I dont get why the media insist on Teos story.

    It’s just a continuation of the media’s “SHINY OBJECT” strategy. Whatever it takes to distract the people from thinking about things that reflect poorly on the miserable failure they just dragged to reelection. No jobs, no recovery, shredding the 2d amendment… American ambassador assassinated by Al Quaeda in Benghazi with no American response — Patreus can’t testify because he quit after going public that he boned some no-name reporter; Hillary can’t testify because…. because…. how is Hillary’s hangnail, anyway? The administration is telling the most absurd lies just to rub everyone’s nose in the fact that they are in charge and just got re-elected to boot, so F you.

    Its the Chicago way. (Oops, “Chigago” was declared a racist slur in the last campaign. Mea cupla.)

  16. scribe says:

    Since beer seems to be a big topic around here, article includes a link to coupons for discounts on admissions

    http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2013/01/the_big_brew_beer_festival_is.html#incart_river

  17. Phoenix says:

    Grim, from reading your numbers, and listening to Eddies responses, it appears to me that the reason people are paying 400k for the “dirt”, as you call it, is for segregation. The “dirt price” is paid to keep away from the riff-raff.
    “Can’t we all just get along?” Rodney King
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_10VT5d6kAk

  18. Phoenix says:

    Algerian crisis is over. Article said the army was “forced to intervene after a fire broke out in the plant” aka BP property damage causing financial loss was unacceptable. The workforce (dead hostages) will be quickly replaced.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57564843/algerian-assault-ends-crisis-19-hostages-dead/

  19. Essex says:

    From Fitzgerald’s 5th edition, Quatrain XII

    “A Book of Verses underneath the Bough,
    A Jug of Wine, a Loaf of Bread–and Thou
    Beside me singing in the Wilderness–
    Oh, Wilderness were Paradise enow!”

  20. Essex says:

    Who fares better in retirement, pensioners or folks who saved up their own respective nest eggs? If you look at the numbers, you might be surprised to learn who’s really “living large” after retirement.

    Regardless of how you made your money, what determines if you’re rich when you retire? Frankly, it isn’t how much money you made, but how much you accumulated that counts. So who are the real rich people?

    Retirees generally fall into one of four groups: folks who retired from the private sector with a 401(k), IRA or a lump sum payout in lieu of a private pension; those with a government pension; self-employed folks who saved their own respective nest eggs; and finally, those scraping by on Social Security alone.

    The U.S. Census Bureau reports that in 2010 the top 10% had a median net worth of $1,864,000. If you’re worth that much or more, 95% of the population thinks you’re rich. But are you?

    When my wife and I were first married we had a negative net worth. No silver spoons for us! By our late 50s we were successfully self-employed and in the top income tax bracket. And yet, once we paid federal and state income taxes, plus Social Security and Medicare, about 50% of our gross income went to taxes. We raised a family with what was left.

    Once the children left the nest, we were in the race to the retirement finish line. For us, like most folks, that’s when we really began to accumulate wealth for retirement. Here was our challenge.

    For a self-employed person to end up in the top 5%, with a net worth of $1,864,000, he would have to earn a spare $3,728,000 before taxes. Now that sure sounds rich, but is it?

    Assuming this person lives in a paid for home worth $564,000, that leaves $1,300,000 in his portfolio for retirement. And let’s assume he and his spouse receive $35,000 a year in combined Social Security payments.

    Today the best rate for a FDIC-insured CD is 1.1%. If the entire portfolio was in CDs, it would pay $14,300 in interest. Add that to their $35,000 in Social Security and they earn just under $50,000. Remember, 95% of the population thinks they’re rich. Their retirement income is likely no more than 40% of what they earned when working.

    And the winner is…

    Firefighters in Contra Costa County, CA have a state law protected pension; many receive over $100,000 annually. (Their department is also closing four stations to make budget.) I have several friends who retired from the government who’ve received a large increase the last couple of years, bumping their pensions to well over 80% of their former salaries. Many regularly risked their lives, and I don’t begrudge them a dime.

    But it would take a self-employed person $2 million in earnings to net $1 million, which could fund an $11,000 pension. It would take just over $9 million for a person in the private sector to fund the pension equal to a Contra Costa County firefighter.

    So who is living large?

    Those who are fortunate enough to have sound government pensions are living very well compared with those in the private sector.

    So what do I tell baby boomers in the private sector? First get out of debt. The quicker you can start accumulating wealth, the better. If you have any type of tax-deferred retirement plan like a 401(k) or an IRA, strive to maximize your contributions.

    Once you have maximized tax-deferred accumulation, move on to the next phase. Start accumulating wealth long before your nest is empty. Even saving just $20/week beginning at age 50, with a modest 4% growth rate, will turn into $31,573 by the time you are 70. Through the magic of compounding, $20,800 saved over 20 years will earn $10,773 on top. Start the process and watch it grow; it will make you want to save more.

    Don’t rush out and join the fire department. Whether you are in the government or private sector, the combination of tax-deferred retirement income, savings and prudent investing is what will help you enjoy your “golden years.”

  21. Fabius Maximus says:

    #15 Moose

    We are in a 24hr constant news cycle and Teo is a good filler, because itsw out of the norm. For years the TV in my office canteen has been wedged on Fox. I remember the days before O. Every day for about a year they droned on about Scott Perterson. There were the months of MJ, OJ the nanny trails and on and on. I’m sure the other channels were the same. It was funny that I was thinking that the Dutch kid in Aruba was a welcome break from the O bashing.

    On the other hand it’s a left wing conspirisy and there are Dems under your bed that will come out in the middle of the night and steel your guns and your wallet.

  22. Ernest Money says:

    Nothing about the Teo story is remotely interesting. The only remarkable thing about it is how smashingly stupid Teo is.

  23. Essex says:

    PBS correspondent Rick Karr reports on Germany’s plan to generate nearly all of its electricity from renewable sources and virtually eliminate its use of fossil fuels by 2050.
    Support for this idea is widespread, and crosses party lines. Over two-thirds of Germans approve of the plan, which is also backed by the German Green Party, the Social Democratic Party, the Free Democratic Party, and Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union.

    This plan is known as the Energiewende; wende, which means turn, referring to the peaceful revolution that culminated with the end of the Cold War.

    Germany’s green revolution was characterized by private development of renewables.

    The government did not attempt to finance green energy, rather, it incentivized these alternative power sources by way of a feed-in-tariff. This means the government pays producers of renewable energy and allows them to purchase their electricity at a discount.

    Rainer Baake, director of Agora Energiewende, believes Germany is unique in that “about 50 percent of the installed capacity of renewables is in the hands of normal citizens and farmers.”

    However, Germany’s development of green energy led to rising costs for consumers. The overall price of electricity has surged by over 66 percent after the passage of the German Renewable Energy Act in 2000.

    In addition, Germany faces the same problem that plagues California: how to provide energy during windless or sunless days. The unreliability is the reason why a study by Deutsche Energie-Agentur GmbH indicates that coal and gas power plants will still have to provide 60 percent of the stable energy sources for days when the weather doesn’t cooperate with the production of renewables.

    In order to integrate renewable energy sources onto the power grid, Germany’s best bet would be to invest in a $25+ billion smart grid. As Reuters reports, “The crucial solution that smart grids provide is the means to control the fluctuating voltage supplied due to daily and seasonal weather variability.”

  24. Fabius Maximus says:

    #20 Essex

    I’ll defer to Chi for advice to this couple, but I would say that there are a few things wrong with that article. Its lets run worst case scenario to moan about the public sector. In its 4 groups, its misses out a big group of current private sector retirees with a defined benefit pension. The big move over from pensions to 401k only really happened late 90′s early 2000s. I think that is why 401k balance figures are so low as it only really reflects the last 10-15 years saving.

    The authors just seems to want to live off 1.1 CD rates and not touch principal. 30yr TIPS will give them 1.7%. $300K into an annuity would get them to the 50K for 30 years. How about a 5yr annuity for the $50K. That would cost $62K and expect rates to be the same or higher at that point.

  25. scribe says:

    Gary,

    Why are you torturing yourself like this? Why can’t you just stay in your current house?

  26. chicagofinance says:

    Fab: from my experience, rich is a state of mind…..consistently, I see the rich as the people in the inheriting generation……the people that earned it and saved, instead of pissing it away, are never going to adjust their thinking enough to really feel the full benefit…..it’s the kids that get to live a life doing “just fine”, albeit average, but always with a big financial head start on anything they want……those are the rich people….they get their way and shove an attitude in everyone’s face….basically because they are insecure that their “money life” is easier and so why not just sh!t on people to make yourself feel better….

  27. Essex says:

    26. Gary has an explanation he’s posted to that. He’s thought it out.

  28. cobbler says:

    fab [24]
    $300K into an annuity would get them to the 50K for 30 years.
    No, it will not – about 1/3 of this payout (unless it is a life annuity, and they are 89 yo already).

  29. Mike says:

    Front page of today’s Ledger: Couple have their house insured for $175000 and it’s contents $50000, the insurance only pays out $6000 because they had no flood insurace.

  30. 30 year realtor says:

    Gary – Let me know if you have any interest in a new construction colonial in Park Ridge. It will be about 2500 sq feet on a 75 x 100 lot for around $650,000. Trying to put together the land sale to a builder I know…and no, the land has never been listed in MLS.

  31. Anon E. Moose says:

    Fab [

    a welcome break from the O bashing.

    O bashing? If he got bashed in the mainstream media is was only from the left because he wasn’t closing Gitmo fast enough for them.

    Statements like this is why you can’t be taken seriously, regardless of how earnest (no pun intended) you seem:

    On the other hand it’s a left wing conspiracy and there are Dems under your bed that will come out in the middle of the night and steel your guns and your wallet.

    If you want to talk about why the government needs to do all the things that lefties like you want it to do, we can have that conversation. But if you can’t acknowledge the irrefutable fact that the mainstream media apparatus is a Democratic house organ (based on preference surveys; records of political giving; JournoList, etc.); or that yours is the party in favor of faster government expansion by tax and spend means; that they have far less concern for things like the second amendment than their ‘penumbra rights’ to smoke dope, then we can’t have a serious conversation.

    Your problem with Fox News is simply that they intrude on what was always safely the exclusive domain of the left. The lashing out is actually quite entertaining to me.

  32. Ernest Money says:

    Dumbs and Rethugs, they are all in on it. They are joined, arm in arm, in the battle to give you and me a right proper arse banging.

    Stand ‘em all against a wall, and shoot the whole scurvy lot.

  33. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    Been out of pocket lately but I see fab is being handled. Dope, generous words and I would have replied in kind but for being busy. May yet take you up on it.

    In other news, DOJ settled a case in Mass, alleging that food allergies are a disability. This leaves open the prospect that allergy sufferers can now force every food vendor in the nation to offer them things they can eat. I expect DOJ to go after Mickey D before the year is out to make them offer gluten free buns made in nut free facilities, and change the French fry oil as well.

  34. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [25] fabius

    You first.

  35. joyce says:

    Comrade,

    The other day when I said ‘why not’ it was referring to your checking out JPFO and saying ‘ no thanks.’

  36. Anon E. Moose says:

    Money,

    You watching spurs today?

  37. Anon E. Moose says:

    Fab [24];

    misses out a big group of current private sector retirees with a defined benefit pension.

    Who are they? GM UAW workers with a rich uncle to bail them out? They’re de facto govt pensioners.

    If you want to talk about private sector DB pensions, why don’t we talk about airline employees with private sector pensions now worth pennies on the dollar with only PBGC backing.

  38. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [37] joyce,

    From what little I read, they make the tea party look like liberals. Not only might I not agree with some of their fringe positions, I would wind up on a watch list and could even be disbarred for joining.

    Also, I’m not Jewish. A mensch maybe but not an official member of the tribe.

  39. joyce says:

    I’m pretty sure it’s open to all. And I believe their fringe position is advocating ‘constitutional carry.’

    Lastly, what makes you think you’re not already on multiple lists? I mean, all of us here do associate with E. Money.

    ;-)

  40. cobbler says:

    moose [39]
    First, most people who started working for big companies before 1990 or so, and stayed with the same employer for more than 5 years, are vested in their DB pensions – even if the benefit had been frozen, they’ll get something (e.g. when I hit 65 I will be getting $400 a month or so from the company I’d been with in the mid-90s about a week longer than was needed to get vested – and actually this is equivalent to $100K in a 401K plan…). Second, PBGC guarantees not pennies on the dollar but up to $64K a year or so; certainly, for the pilots that’d been hoping for 6-digit pensions, it’s a hit – but not for most retirees.

  41. Phoenix says:

    Contractor push back site. Funny some of the things that make a “nasty customer.” Like asking for a best price, watching what they are doing, asking questions, getting multiple estimates. When I needed a contractor and was given a bid (all of them used same boilerplate contracts), I received a contract that said i would get a wall, sheetrock, floor, window, and toilet. Type, model, thickness, brands, hell no. No details and god forbid you ask for any, they look like you stabbed them in the eye. No doubt they would provide the cheapest crap if it’s not in writing. Contracting is equal to or as bad as car sales.

    http://www.nastyclient.com/how-to-spot-a-nasty-client/

  42. yome says:

    Erin Andrews is the homb. Tight leather pants

  43. reinvestor101 says:

    Tell you liberals what dammit, the tea party IS NOT DEAD but alive and well. We showed our asses up at gun rallies all over the damn country this weekend. I can hardly wait until the damn town halls start again. You will not tax the shlt out of me, I will not cut back on my damn lifestyle, I’m not giving my damn house away to some stinking real estate terrorist and I’d damn sure NOT GIVING UP MY DAMN GUNS.

  44. Ernest Money says:

    Nice goal by Dempsey. Would much rather watch La Liga. Much better than EPL.

  45. Anon E. Moose says:

    Cobbler [42];

    pilots that’d been hoping for 6-digit pensions,

    Are pilots any less deserving that government paper pushers drawings six figure pensions? And ‘hoping for’? It wasn’t hope, it was a negotiated agreement, and the money was earned. The only element of “hope” is that they even have to rely on “hope” that the company puts in the money they are contractually obligated to contribute. Gov’t workers don’t need such “hope”, just like they don’t need to “hope” there will be continuing demand for their service (job security), or even “hope” that their performance is satisfactory to keep their jobs even if there is continuing demand.

    PBGC guarantees not pennies on the dollar…

    I’d like the see the spasms from the public unions when their pensions get cut 1/3 or more from six figured to $64k. Considering they spin a 4% salary increase as a draconian cuts, I bet they’ll think its pennies on the dollar when their ox is gored.

    Why do you think it’s just fine for pilots’ pensions to get cut to $64k when their counterparty goes bankrupt, but government workers and retiring boomers get to tax future generations into penury to avoid necessary cuts to their defined benefits?

  46. NJGator says:

    Clot 22 – I don’t buy he wasn’t in on it unless he scores below a 15 on the Wonderlic.

  47. Ernest Money says:

    I think a <15 is possible for Teo. He's definitely in the Vince Young range.

  48. Ernest Money says:

    Got to keep in mind Teo is a Mormon, so he’s much more likely to be wrapped up in PEDs, pills and amph#tamines.

  49. yome says:

    Harbaugh vs Harbaugh?

  50. Ernest Money says:

    Gubmint drones deserve nothing when it all goes bust. Learn to love Friskies.

  51. Ernest Money says:

    Do members of the Gambino family deserve a pension? Then, neither do gubmint drones.

  52. cobbler says:

    moose [49]
    First, obscenely high pilots’ salaries (and pension costs, too) were one of the key factors that pushed the major airlines into bankruptcy. There is no reason why flying a 737 should be rewarded 4x better than doing the same work on the regional jet; moreover, I’d say that driving a passenger bus with 80 people daily from NYC to Boston and back for even less money is more stressful. If you (the pilot) got lucky once it doesn’t mean the luck should stay forever, and $64K defined benefit pension plus Social Security should provide the retirement most people contributing to 401K for 40 years can only dream of.

  53. Fabius Maximus says:

    #30 cobbler

    $15K from the anunity and $35K SS to get to the $50K.

  54. Fabius Maximus says:

    #33 Moose

    Sorry I keep forgetting that Fox is not part of the mainstream media.

    Why don’t I tell you my problem with Fox as opposed to you making an assumption. My issue is that outside of its one sided political commentry it is the worst for of tabloid news. Nothing is considered beyond the headline and the the visual image. I have had to suffer Fox in the canteen for years and in all the trail coverages horrible stories and graphic details, this was their lowest point.
    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/09/28/fox-news-airs-car-chase-suspect-shooting-himself-in-the-head/

  55. Fabius Maximus says:

    #39 Moose.

    How about the likes of GE with 600K retirees. Where do they fall in the authors 4 groups? The author skipped a huge chunk of data that would have contradicted their argument. I think there is a name for that?

  56. Fabius Maximus says:

    #48 Clot

    You going for the drop this year?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyS1kET_6nI

  57. Fabius Maximus says:

    #53 yome

    My best outcome.
    Lets go niners!

  58. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    Kurt Eichenwald – apparently he’s a conservative who went on a 25 tweet rant:

    25. AND FINALLY: U cant believe every word Fox, Rush & Co. say when they proved they lie 2 you with the “Romney will win in a landslide” con
    24. U cannot cite Bible to support ur policy beliefs if u havent REALLY read it. If u did, ud find opposing illegal immigration is a sin.
    23. If u believe Bible is absolute truth, u don’t get to pick & choose which sins bother u. U shuld rage about tatoos as much as about gays.
    22. You cannot use the Bible to condemn other people. If u believe in God, judgment aint up to you. Plank in the eye, remember?
    21. The fact that a president does something you don’t like isn’t grounds for impeachment. Neither is getting a BJ.
    20. Saying it politicizes tragedy 2 try 2 stop slaughters of kids is immoral. Did Bush “politicize” 9/11 by trying 2 stop next qaeda attack?
    19. The dissipation of the frothing over Benghazi proves it was just a despicable GOP attempt to politicize a tragedy pre-election
    18. Any political group that believes government staged the Newtown slaughter is crazy, beneath contempt and unworthy of being Americans.
    17. My neighbor was locked up in a FEMA concentration camp. Oh, wait – thats a paranoid delusion from another idiot looking for ur money.
    Expand
    44m Kurt Eichenwald ‏@kurteichenwald
    16. A death panel came to my house and dragged away my mother. Oh wait – that idea is just a paranoid delusion advanced by an idiot.
    Expand
    15. Saying Obama isnt American makes u stupid. His mother is American. Even if he was born on Mars, under the law, he is a citizen.
    14. You cant proclaim America is the greatest country in the world unless u can tell me one fact about another country. Or travel to others.
    13. Numbers do not have a liberal bias. The policies of GWBush resulted in $5.7T in new debt. Policies of Obama: $1.5T. Check the CBO data.
    12. If you keep arguing and believe that knives/hammers etc. are more dangerous than guns, trade in your guns for knives and hammers.
    11. If you think US troops will join you in your attempt to overthrow Constitutional government, you don’t need any guns of your own.
    Expand
    50m Kurt Eichenwald ‏@kurteichenwald
    10. If ur armed to fight government “tyranny” when things in our constitutional system dont go ur way, ur planning to kill US troops. Or…
    Expand
    52m Kurt Eichenwald ‏@kurteichenwald
    9. No one wants 2 disarm you. And notice – whenever the NRA & Co. says govnt is coming 4 ur guns, they also hit u up for money. It’s a scam.
    8. No one can claim to love the USA while purchasing books that declare those who disagree with you are evil.
    8. No one can claim to love the USA and then say person elected as prez through our constitutional system “isn’t my president.”
    Expand
    7. No one can claim to love the USA and hate the majority of the people in it.
    Expand
    56m Kurt Eichenwald ‏@kurteichenwald
    6. Trying to blackmail the adults in government to adopt ur policies by threatening the economic survival of the USA is not statesmanship.
    5. The GOP message in ’12 was loud and clear. It’s not that voters didn’t hear it. They rejected it. And poor people have the right to vote.
    4. Saying that getting guns should be easy and being able to vote should be hard means you hate the Constitution and Democracy.
    Expand
    59m Kurt Eichenwald ‏@kurteichenwald
    3. Voter fraud is not the cause of GOP losses, anymore than “the ref cheated” causes 7th grade soccer losses.
    2. Obama didn’t win the election because four million illegal aliens voted for him. No such person would risk discovery to vote.
    Expand
    1h Kurt Eichenwald ‏@kurteichenwald
    1. ACORN didn’t steal the 2012 election. The organization did not exist.
    Expand

  59. cobbler says:

    fab [59]
    This a rather funny way of thinking; also, very few people get 35K in SS payments – at least, the SSA calculator promises me less than this despite maxing out on FICA for the last 15 years at least.

  60. Ernest Money says:

    gluteus (62)-

    You should be more worried that your team only chose to play for about 30 minutes against Chelsea.

    Wanker is going to get the sack.

  61. Ernest Money says:

    When Wilshere figures out he only has to play hard for 30 minutes at a time, Gooners are done.

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