Mixed picture for NJ home prices

From the Record:

Home prices rise in region and nationwide, CoreLogic says

Home prices jumped 8.5 percent in the region and 8.3 percent nationwide from December 2011 to December 2012, as energized buyers chased a shrinking pool of properties, the property information company CoreLogic reported Tuesday.

The CoreLogic report is the latest evidence suggesting that home prices are generally rising nationwide. Low interest rates and an improving national job market are drawing buyers back into the marketplace, analysts say.

The price picture was mixed, however, with New Jersey as a whole posting a drop of 0.9 percent – one of only four states in the nation where home values declined even as inventories shrink. The state’s housing market recovery has been held back by its unemployment rate, which was 9.6 percent in December, compared with a national rate of 7.8 percent. In addition, foreclosures are ramping up in the Garden State, after being slowed down by questions over shoddy practices in the mortgage industry. When these foreclosed properties the market, they are likely to sell at a deep discount, putting downward pressure on nearby prices.

However, CoreLogic said prices were up in the metropolitan statistical area that includes New York City, Westchester and Bergen and Passaic counties. Bill Beckett of McSpirit & Beckett Real Estate in Tenafly said much of that increase is probably driven by New York City prices, while values in Bergen have been fairly flat.

Both Beckett and Nelson Chen of the Chen Agency in Fort Lee said they’ve seen a rise in demand from buyers.

“My schedule on Saturday was like 2006; I had appointments booked literally every half hour,” Chen said. “There’s a million people looking. But they’re still very picky.”

As buyers have begun to snap up more properties, inventory is dropping because homeowners are in no rush to put their properties on the market. The New Jersey Multiple Listing Service reports that the number of properties for sale in Bergen County dropped more than 25 percent from last January to January 2013.

Many homeowners are apparently waiting for prices to rebound.

“Once you have $400,000 in your head, it’s hard to put the house on the market for $319,000,” Beckett said.

And those who bought during the most recent boom years – roughly 2004 to 2007 – would not be able to sell without taking a loss. Prices in the region have returned to the levels of December 2003, and have dropped 24.5 percent below the peak levels of 2006, according to the S&P/Case-Shiller index.

“I had a meeting with someone who bought in 2004, and the home is worth less now,” Chen said. So the homeowner decided not to sell, he said: “They’re not willing to take that loss.

This entry was posted in Economics, Housing Recovery, North Jersey Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

105 Responses to Mixed picture for NJ home prices

  1. Essex says:

    Wake up and shop New Jersey. You aren’t getting any younger or richer.

  2. Essex says:

    Bought in 2002. According to zillow we are even with that price. Selling soon? Probably not.

  3. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  4. grim says:

    2 – S&P Case Shiller only has us back to 2003 prices (High Tier), you overpay in ’02?

    Anyhow, you really want to leave? Where you goin’ to? That $900k Toll brothers townhouse in Short Hills?

  5. Mike says:

    I’ve always found Trulia and Zillow not to be a good barometer for estimates

  6. grim says:

    5 – They don’t handle renovation well at all (Ironically, Zillow is now trying to complete in this space against Houzz)

    For example, if you have a neighborhood that contains a number of recently renovated homes that sold, they’ll pull the estimates of the un-renovated properties upwards, as Zillow really can’t tell the difference.

    Or, if you have a set of renovated homes for sale in a neighborhood of renovated homes that hadn’t recently sold (think owner’s that renovated to stay), the estimates on the for sale house/houses will be sub-market, as they’ll be compared to the pre-renovation sale prices of the other properties.

    The Zillow/Trulia model works well when you have large communities of very similar homes (think Southern US housing developments). Mixed housing stock (think high variability in size, quality, age) also causes it the estimates to be all over the map. Properties with sweetheart taxes (under assessed relative to market), also show as being significantly undervalued (as the assessed value is low comparatively). Also never takes into account the filth and squalor the owner is living in, if you think that doesn’t matter, you are way off.

  7. grim says:

    Some MLS Pricing Data:

    Average Sale Price, 6 Months Ending 1/31

    Bergen
    2012 – $506,954
    2013 – $500,852 (Down 1.2%)

    Essex
    2012 – $431,261
    2013 – $454,238 (Up 5.2%)

    Hunterdon
    2012 – $385,695
    2013 – $385,952 (Flat)

    Morris
    2012 – $456,464
    2013 – $454,522 (Down 0.4%)

    Passaic
    2012 – $300,438
    2013 – $295,046 (Down 1.8%)

    Somerset
    2012 – $465,139
    2013 – $440,581 (Down 5.3%)

    Sussex
    2012 – $239,681
    2013 – $241,244 (Up 0.7%)

    Union
    2012 – $366,496
    2013 – $393,742 (Up 7.4%)

    Warren
    2012 – $214,297
    2013 – $222,618 (Up 3.9%)

  8. Hobooken says:

    the housing market is on fire. Its worse than 2005.

  9. Essex says:

    4. I am not sure about overpaying, but we did invest a bit in the place to make it ours and liveable. Didn’t go overboard. No, really you are right — anywhere we go in New Jersey we up the montly payment. The best way to relocate in NJ is to either inherit money or leave for a cheaper place.

  10. grim says:

    but we did invest a bit in the place to make it ours and liveable.

    If the town didn’t hit you with a big increase in taxes, Zillow isn’t considering the renovations.

  11. Anon E. Moose says:

    Hobooken [8];

    Could it be? The prodigal son returns? En Fu-eeeee-go!

  12. grim says:

    Say goodbye to Saturday mail

  13. Fast Eddie says:

    And those who bought during the most recent boom years – roughly 2004 to 2007 – would not be able to sell without taking a loss. Prices in the region have returned to the levels of December 2003, and have dropped 24.5 percent below the peak levels of 2006, according to the S&P/Case-Shiller index.

    This, on top of Inventory that is non-existent and 30 yr. rates with a “3″ handle. Any questions?

  14. Mike says:

    Nice to hear from you during the week Gary

  15. grim says:

    Went to 5 open houses yesterday before the game. It ranged in 450K worth of slop to 600K worth of slop. Oh, one was really nice but it was the size of the inside of your car and had a 30 foot retaining wall against route 17 for your backyard. The realtor told us, “Well this is Ho Ho Kus, you know.” She was giving us “advice” on how to expand the house. You know, on top of the price tag just to buy the place. I think we’re getting closer to making our decision on moving.

    I didn’t see that property (Assuming 425 Ardmore). Looks great from the pictures, and at $525k is priced right on the mark. As such, it went into Attorney Review yesterday. Less than 3 weeks on the market. If that place was located closer in-town (no wall, no Waldwick border), it could have gotten $100k more.

    Low $500s for a totally redone house, nice lot size, sub $10k taxes in HoHoKus? New Windows, Siding, Bathrooms, High-end Kitchen too? Very recent air condition, furnace, hot water heater… Even taking into account the size of the property and the retaining wall/proximity to 17, that’s a good price. I know you don’t want to hear that.

  16. grim says:

    The houses on Ardmore were pushing the $1m mark during the peak of the market, and even recently, some of the larger homes on the block have closed in the mid to high sevens.

    Hell, houses on the block were selling in the high fives (and higher) in 2000.

    45 Ardmore just recently sold for $710k. They paid $185,000 more for a no character split level with 1000 more square feet and a location away from the retaining wall. Oh yeah, it’s still stuck in 1959. You could probably dump $75k into this one easy to bring it up to date.

    404 Ardmore is a similar updated Cape, except they expanded as well (over the garage and out back it looks like, that one just recently closed at $783.5k. That one was nicely updated. It had previously sold for $930k in 2005.

  17. JJ says:

    My biggest gripe about people who renvovate homes is they somehow tie it to the cost they paid for renovations. The more they pay the more they think the house is worth.
    So if you went to Home Depot, Lowes, Licensed contractors, got permits, paid for dumpsters, had licensed electricians, plumbers and did not shop around for material and overpaid and end up paying 100K for a 40K renovation they think their house is worth 100K more.

    I easily did a 100k renovation on my house for 50K. I estimate the 50K renovation might bring up home value 40K at most. Yet I see other folks who would have did same renovation for 100K and think house is worth 100K more. I also find it amusing folks think purchase price has anything to do with how much house is worth. You overpaid 200K when you bought in Spring 2004 compared to other neighbor who bought Spring 1999. That does not make your house worth more.

    I also love staging, unless it is a vacation home that furniture is included that does not make your house worth more.

    Other pet peeve is folks who dont grieve taxes and have overtaxed houses. Two identical houses side by side, guess what the one with 2k less taxes I rather have.

    I won my tax greivance three years in a row and now pay 3k less a year then my two neighbors, whose house would you rather have.

    Essex says:
    February 6, 2013 at 7:04 am

    4. I am not sure about overpaying, but we did invest a bit in the place to make it ours and liveable. Didn’t go overboard. No, really you are right — anywhere we go in New Jersey we up the montly payment. The best way to relocate in NJ is to either inherit money or leave for a cheaper place.
    Essex says:
    February 6, 2013 at 7:04 am

    4. I am not sure about overpaying, but we did invest a bit in the place to make it ours and liveable. Didn’t go overboard. No, really you are right — anywhere we go in New Jersey we up the montly payment. The best way to relocate in NJ is to either inherit money or leave for a cheaper place.

  18. Comrade Nom Deplume, Troglodyte at Law says:

    [12] grim

    So one less day of junk mail? Sweet!

  19. grim says:

    18 – I’ve seen some reports that reference the Saturday cancellation as being associated with “First Class” mail, as such, it might not actually apply to junk mail (bulk-classes). I’m sure we’ll hear more later today.

  20. Comrade Nom Deplume, Troglodyte at Law says:

    [17] JJ

    Do the police stop you and ask you questions merely because they find you interesting?

  21. Comrade Nom Deplume, Troglodyte at Law says:

    [17] JJ

    “I won my tax greivance three years in a row and now pay 3k less a year then my two neighbors, whose house would you rather have.”

    I pity the folks who eventually buy your house. Not only will they have to pay more, but their taxes will be much higher than comps, all because you used to live there.

  22. Fast Eddie says:

    grim,

    The house was nice but it was half the size of my house. One bedroom used the doorway to the attic as the closet. So, you walked through the hanging clothes to get into the attic. It was on the same level, no stairs, just to give a visual. In essence, it was a two bedroom home that morphed into three and the one bedroom was off the living room. I’m not saying the price wasn’t good, I’m saying it was tailor-made for Hobbits.

  23. Comrade Nom Deplume, Troglodyte at Law says:

    [9] essex,

    NJ has an inheritance tax. Best if you are not an NJ resident when you get your bequest.

  24. Comrade Nom Deplume, Troglodyte at Law says:

    [19] grim

    That sounds like a political ploy to get public support (the time-honored tactic of holding the popular service hostage). But I am not sure it will win many adherents. No one is in a hurry to get those window envelopes on a Saturday–rarely does anything good come in a window envelope.

  25. grim says:

    24 – The primary purpose of the USPS is to deliver junk/bulk mail and marketing collateral, not personal correspondence or packages. Do not confuse this point. Their purpose is to facilitate direct mail marketing.

    Realize that bulk mailers pay substantially reduced rates in comparison to first class mailers, and thus, any subsidies/bailouts that the USPS needs to continue operation are by extension, subsidies into the direct mailers. Yes, I understand that much of the discount is attributable to automation and presort, however, recognize that the entire purpose of automation and presort is to facilitate bulk mailing. Why don’t marketers pay a premium for the luxury of having access to the service, as well as access to the mailbox (It is illegal for Fed Ex and USPS to put a letter in your mailbox).

    This is also the reason there is no national “Do Not Mail” registry, similar to the anti-telemarketing “Do Not Call” registry. If “Do Not Mail” is ever passed, the USPS will cease to exist – overnight, and would result in massive layoffs at the USPS. Sans bulkmail, the USPS could probably get by with 1/3rd of the total staffing. Eliminate parcel competition with Fed Ex and UPS, and that probably falls to 1/4th, or less.

  26. joyce says:

    25
    Spot on, well said

  27. JJ says:

    NYS by assessed value can only rise a max of 6% a year or 20% over five years.

    Assessed value drives taxes. They only reassess every four years now. For now. So I can only get a 6% increase every four years. My goals is to attempt to get my house back to 1999 values. I am currently assessed at 312K, I paid 280K.

    Considering house next door to me and behind currently are splits with entire main level and lower level gutted, the comps are in my favor. I have seen splits that went for 380K in the summer being banged out for 110k as is with flood damage.

    I am attempting to go for an assessed value of 212K. but will settle for 1999. I want 1992 prices. I have insane damage pictures to my house. National Guard in front of house with machine guns and debris piled ten feet high and shots of six feet of water in my house with the flash camera as it was pitch black.

    In my personal opinion my house is worth 212k. for 100K I could get my guys to completely redo a shell house so if I could buy a shell for 110k that makes my house worth 212k.

    People fail to realize the mortgage is not that big a deal, it is just a temporary expense, it is the property taxes you need to manage .

    I know for a fact my two neighbor who pays 9k in property taxes are going to grieve big time. Idiot neighbor next door paid 480k for a super mint blown out 2,400 square foot split that is now just 900 square feet of living space with no kitchen, living room, den, etc.

    You know what I am a long term housing bull. Five years from now if no floods and I have a house with 4k annual property taxes I am set. I can rent it, keep it, retire in it, sell it.
    When I was looking at beach bungalows my favorite was this estate sale, guy was a serial griever and got assessed value all the way down to like 64K, since under the
    Enhanced STAR primary residences of senior citizens (age 65 and older) with qualifying incomes are exempt on the first $63,300 of the full value of a home from school taxes the guy was paying 5 bucks a year in school taxes. I love that guy. Town taxes were like $11, he paid $16 bucks a year in taxes. No mortgage.

    Comrade Nom Deplume, Troglodyte at Law says:
    February 6, 2013 at 9:15 am

    [17] JJ

    “I won my tax greivance three years in a row and now pay 3k less a year then my two neighbors, whose house would you rather have.”

    I pity the folks who eventually buy your house. Not only will they have to pay more, but their taxes will be much higher than comps, all because you used to live there.

  28. joyce says:

    How many days in a row now are we graced with hearing about the idiot neighbor paying 480?

    I’ve lost count.

  29. back1nj3rsey says:

    For those savy folks on here that might have grieved their taxes
    Before, the nj forms state that you must use homes as comps that sold from Oct to Dec 2012. What if there arnt any comps in your area that sold within that timeline? What is the radius that can be used to find comps. 2 miles, 3? First time doing this. I bought again in 2011 and the cronies are assessing me no where near what i paid for the house, and it was an arms length sale, so i dont want to hear it. Its rediculous!

  30. Happy Renter says:

    “tailor-made for Hobbits”

    Gary – did the property have adequate space for the hobbits to park their unicorns?

    You apparently don’t appreciate the fact that a “walk-thru closet” is even more prestigious than a “walk-in closet.” (Or, in used house salesman speak: PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP!!!!!)

  31. Anon E. Moose says:

    Joyce [28];

    Point taken, but if I lived in a neighborhood of $350-400k houses, I’d sure be using the guy who paid $480k for like kind down the block as a prominent point of reference (as in — at least we didn’t end up like that poor bastard!).

  32. Fast Eddie says:

    Happy Renter [30],

    Of course, what am I thinking. It’s different living in Upper Schmoopyville. I keep forgetting I want to be considered vogue and trendy. F.uck, I should just over-pay for a house and then sell at a loss just to show how edgy and chic’ I really am.

  33. JJ says:

    I find it absolutely amazing beyond belief. I put a bid in on the house myself for 200k. Then the idiot comes along and pays 480k. I told wife within five years I will buy it for 200k. My biggest problem in real estate is idiots paying more than it is worth.

    No one walks into a car dealership sees a 30K car and says I will pay 50K. Yet people do it with housing. Why drives me insane. Plus that idiot shows up as a comp that year and causes the folks who live near him to pay higher taxes. Rising home prices are a terrible things. Realtors are idiots too.

    I buy a home for 100K and homes rise to 500k by the time I retire, realtor tells me I make money. Wait I have three kids, all three kids pay an extra 400K for home or 1.2 million. So I make 400K and kids spend an extra 1.2 million. I be better off if home never rose in value and all three kids can buy houses for 100K each

    joyce says:
    February 6, 2013 at 9:54 am

    How many days in a row now are we graced with hearing about the idiot neighbor paying 480?

    I’ve lost count.

  34. Anon E. Moose says:

    JJ [33];

    But nobody has kids anymore. Netflix Idiocracy. Lower class and immigrants will have kids who get to pay taxes to fund our government-sponsored retirement benefits. What could go wrong?

  35. Comrade Nom Deplume. Apparently. says:

    [34] moose,

    You are more right than you know. US births at record low, well below “replacement rate”. Bloomberg all over this today.

  36. Anon E. Moose says:

    Con’t [31];

    Joyce,

    besides, my frustration with the real estate market is that being right brought no reward, and government was determined to reward those who were wrong.

    I was right not to buy a POS cape on long island in 2005 for $650k, which bought me the opportunity to sink another $100k into completely updating the Roosevelt-era decor. My reward for being right was to live in POS rental housing stock for 7 years, psychopause landlady and all the rest.

    Someone who was wrong, and did sink that money in 2005 either got bailed out with gov’t refi using my money (no tax breaks for renters!), or if they were smart enough early enough, they walked away, and are now getting ready to buy back in at post-bubble levels with inflated Bernake Dollars.

    Under those circumstances, I’m not sure I’m better off for having been right.

  37. JJ says:

    You know who got screwed big time near me were couples in their late 40s. I know a few of them who bought tiny capes/ranches anywhere between 1989 and 1999. By spring 2004 to spring 2007 they had a ton of equity in their house. They sold that POS for 550K cash and bought trade up homes and took refis and remodeled and were living the life by Summer of 2007.

    By March 2009 their salaries plummeted, they were traded in with 16k property taxes and a 2k mortgage. They could not walk away or anything thing like that as they put down like 400k. If they only stayed in their little capes/ranches with 7K taxes that were paid off when the RE downturn and layoffs came they would be set. Instead they lost it all. Paying a mortgage from 1989 to 2009 and ending up with no house or equity and a bank chasing you for balance is ugly.

    Anon E. Moose says:

  38. cobbler says:

    grim [25]
    USPS Saturday delivery is the only way to get your package at a reasonable cost if the shipper doesn’t allow for it being dropped off without signature (even with your release), and you don’t want to take a day off to wait for the UPS/FedEx truck (and management at work frowns at the personal stuff being shipped to your work address).

  39. Anon E. Moose says:

    Speaking of psychopause landlady, I was just remembering that her and hubby Donald J. Chump put their 2-family up for sale some time after I moved out. Listed by a DIY MLS shop for $849k; pulled and re-listed for $799k over a year — sold for $630k. Way to price the listing there, honey. Her realtor and her surely deserved each other. I hope she got bent over the closing table as a condition of sale.

  40. yome says:

    Patent Reform, System Should Be Abolished, Fed Economists Say

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/05/patent-reform-economists_n_2623537.html

  41. Ernest Money says:

    plume (35)-

    Reduced birthrate is a 100% tell on a degenerate society headed toward complete collapse.

    Look at Japan.

  42. Ernest Money says:

    USPS is only good for mailing anthrax.

  43. Ernest Money says:

    Oh, and USPS gave pretty good service to Ted Kaczynski.

  44. JJ says:

    you mean you cant get a girl pregant sexting?

    Ernest Money says:
    February 6, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    plume (35)-

    Reduced birthrate is a 100% tell on a degenerate society headed toward complete collapse.

    Look at Japan.

  45. Anon E. Moose says:

    yo [40];

    Curious that an article which lays out the case that intellectual property is so horrible for the economy is published in a journal that is copyrighted, under a name that is trademarked. IP for me, but not for thee…

    http://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/jep.27.1.1

  46. Ernest Money says:

    Chinese steal all our shit, anyway.

  47. Anon E. Moose says:

    Con’t [39];

    Even at $630k, the gross ROI on the place was about 6%. In reality, it was much less because she paid the utilities — too cheap to separate the heat and hot water — plus the taxes. She got by because her neutered hubby did any repairs, and she pimped out her son by sending him to HVAC school so he could service her ‘empire’ — son played house in the basement with his girlfriend until she gave him our place after we moved out. If she really thought the place was worth $850k or anything near that it was a horrible investment – more like 5%.

    Karma make me feel good today.

  48. grim says:

    41 – Clot – I suppose the corollary is that those countries with the highest birthrates are poised for economic leadership?

    So…. you long Niger, Mali, Somalia, Uganda, Burundi?

    All great places to be.

  49. Ernest Money says:

    Since piracy and warlording are both growth industries, I’d have to put a strong buy on Somalia. ;)

  50. Ernest Money says:

    C’mon. Show Uganda some love. Idi loved us all.

  51. grim says:

    I’d imagine piracy is somewhat like drug dealing, while the profits seem impressive, the foot soldiers probably make less than a subsistence wage. Now, if you are talking about becoming a new warlord, that’s another matter entirely. Who do you have bankrolling you?

    Does Goldman Sachs have the authority to issue a Letter of Marque? I can see some interesting derivative trades if that’s the case.

  52. grim says:

    Always thought that “Commentary On the Law of Prize and Booty” would have made for a bitchin blog name.

  53. Comrade Nom Deplume a.k.a. "JJ Ultra Light" says:

    [44] JJ

    JJ, I am sure you can get a woman pregnant through telepathy.

  54. Comrade Nom Deplume a.k.a. "JJ Ultra Light" says:

    Here’s one of my former clients . . . (kidding!)

    http://news.yahoo.com/video/woman-gives-judge-finger-gets-120050862.html

  55. Comrade Nom Deplume a.k.a. "JJ Ultra Light" says:

    I think that in the America of the future, I want to be consiglieri to one of the local warlords.

  56. grim says:

    Is that the dude that makes the pasta? If you want a fun way to spend a Thursday, try to work the word Scungilli into as many conversations as you have tomorrow, straight faced, don’t laugh.

  57. Comrade Nom Deplume a.k.a. "JJ Ultra Light" says:

    Hey, Levi is close by and can probably use a good war-time consiglieri.

    http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/amish-mafia/about-the-show/about-the-show.htm

    Couldn’t be a very heavy lift either. My high school gang was more badass than these guys.

  58. chicagofinance says:

    grim says:
    February 6, 2013 at 12:32 pm
    Niger, Mali, Somalia, Uganda, Burundi

    ….everyone talk about Pop Muzik…..

  59. Ernest Money says:

    grim (52)-

    I think Flavor Flav holds the rights to this.

    “Always thought that “Commentary On the Law of Prize and Booty” would have made for a bitchin blog name.”

  60. Ernest Money says:

    When is the episode showing what happens when the Amish Mafia scrap with the MS-13?

  61. Ernest Money says:

    Quick. Blast them with the scrapple cannon.

  62. Anon E. Moose says:

    “Damn it, Papa had Genco and look what I got!”

  63. joyce says:

    54
    I highly doubt that’s the entire story, but if the only reasons that lady got a month in jail was (1) that she flipped off the judge, and (2) the judge could… just another example of a f-ed up system.

    Leaving out politicians and corporate titans, I wonder who the more arrogant person is: the average cop or the average judge? I’m going to have to go with the latter… but note that most people have more contact with the former.

  64. Ernest Money says:

    Just go there: #geithnerbooktitles

  65. homeboken says:

    joyce – Who cares if that’s the whole story. Why should it matter? The rules for contempt of court are pretty clear. What type of punishment would you recommend for cursing out a judge, flipping off the judge and then admitting to doing these things? The tape I viewed showed the young girls complete pompous behavior throughout her questioning. I can guarantee you that the young lady standing behind this brat was 100% in-line when her turn in front of the judge came.

  66. JJ says:

    Guess their will be mail on Saturdays

    Cyclist Lance Armstrong admitted to doping in an interview with Oprah Winfrey. During that interview, Armstrong stated he was is in talks to return a portion of the multimillion-dollar sponsorship he received from the United States Postal Service. Rather than re-pay the money, Lance Armstrong to show he is still the best bicyclist ever, will deliver all US Mail by himself every Saturday.

  67. joyce says:

    home,

    I care. I think it matters because I’ve seen judges arbitrarily use their power in a spiteful way. I think the rules for contempt of court give judges too much leeway and discretion. This is my opinion; apparently, you disagree.

    To be honest, I did not watch the entire thing.

    According to this report, the judge decided to double the bail just cause he got a little attitude (after giving some).
    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/04/16840659-woman-gets-month-in-jail-for-flipping-off-florida-judge

    Being pompous in front of a judge is letting said judge look in a mirror.

    Also from that article:

    “Of course, not all birds are created equal. In May 2006, a New York man, John Swartz, was arrested for disorderly conduct after he flipped off a police officer. But last month, a federal appeals court overturned a lower-court decision holding that giving a cop the middle-finger warrants arrest.

    The middle-finger, the 2nd U.S. Circuit Circuit Appeals wrote in their decision, is an “ancient gesture of insult” and “is not the basis for a reasonable suspicious of a traffic violation or impending criminal activity.”

    Swartz’s lawyer, Elmer Robert Keach III, praised the court’s decision as an “important victory for civil rights.”

    “It reaffirms that just because you insult a police officer [it] doesn’t give that police officer the right to detain you or arrest you and take away your liberty,” Keach told the Associated Press.”

  68. homeboken says:

    Joyce – I guess we do disagree. Watch the video when you get a chance, the young girl spent the entirety of her questioning avoiding any of the judges questions, twirling her hair and generally treating the entire process as a joke. After all this, the judge set her bail at the standard $5,000 amount. The young lady laughed and said “Adios” as she was walking away. At that point, the judge called her back and increased bail to $10,000. The girl looked shocked, started to walk away, then shouted “F$$k you” to the judge while flipping him off.
    At this point, the judge needs to do something to show that he is not a total push-over. So he calls her back again, asks her point blank “Did you just tell me to F Off?” The response, “Yes I did.” Bang, 30 days for criminal contempt. To which our newly humbled defendant replies “That’s fine.”

  69. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    joyce – I like hearing the stories about JJ’s neighbors. This is same one with the tall hedge fence blocking JJ’s driveway, then pulled out and replaced with the white PVC picket fence before being sold. JJ – Did the new neighbors take out the PVC fence and plant another hedge fence or was there just one early AM planting incident and that was the old neighbor? And what’s the deal with the shared well on that property? Who shares it?

    How many days in a row now are we graced with hearing about the idiot neighbor paying 480?

    I’ve lost count.

  70. Anon E. Moose says:

    Joyce [69];

    I had to appear on an illegal u-turn ticket recently. I did the dance, I got the standard plea-bargain (this is 4 points, but I’ll knock it down to 2 points, or you can pay (bribe) the state a couple hondo and get zero points…); I waited my turn, I stood up in front of the judge — “yes, your honor…. yes, your honor…” and when it came time to impose the agreed upon fine, he spouts off about “and no jail time on this occasion.” Nope, criminal justice system going soft — no jail time for this heinous traffic offense. I almost asked him to repeat himself, and thought about thanking him obsequiously for “justice with mercy”, but since I was an f-ing grown up I bit my tongue and got on with my life. I suppose the alternative had I indulged by instinct would have been to do a month in the county lockup like this nice young lady did. I hope she thought it was worth it.

  71. joyce says:

    I saw most of that, and read the rest in the article. 30 days in jail is a lot for ‘mouthing off’
    So the judge doubled the bail, because he could. And you forgot to mention at the very end the judge says “Adios” because he, expectedly, he lowered himself to her level and had to get the last word.

    70.homeboken says:
    February 6, 2013 at 2:26 pm
    Joyce – I guess we do disagree. Watch the video when you get a chance, the young girl spent the entirety of her questioning avoiding any of the judges questions, twirling her hair and generally treating the entire process as a joke. After all this, the judge set her bail at the standard $5,000 amount. The young lady laughed and said “Adios” as she was walking away. At that point, the judge called her back and increased bail to $10,000. The girl looked shocked, started to walk away, then shouted “F$$k you” to the judge while flipping him off.
    At this point, the judge needs to do something to show that he is not a total push-over. So he calls her back again, asks her point blank “Did you just tell me to F Off?” The response, “Yes I did.” Bang, 30 days for criminal contempt. To which our newly humbled defendant replies “That’s fine.”

  72. Ernest Money says:

    F’ing judges are a bunch of bankster and corporate lickspittles, just like the rest of the whole fetid executive and legislative machine. It’s all corrupt, and it’s all turning to shit.

  73. Ernest Money says:

    Free Angela Davis!

    …uh, they did.

  74. Ernest Money says:

    The justice system in the US exists only to incarcerate addicts and black people.

  75. joyce says:

    You’re right, Moose. The local level doesn’t even pretend to hide the fact that it’s Justice system is nothing but a collection racket. However, you can still do the dance but not bow your head and refer to this robed-costume wearer as “your honor” countless times.

    The last time I had the pleasure of going to traffic court I witnesses a great spectacle of our system in action. They had a video feed of some people’s appearances who were at the county court. One gentleman (white guy, 30ish, homeless) who after some back n forth with the judge, got the judge to admit this was his third time making an ‘initial appearance.’ The homeless guy said, “I’m ready for trial AGAIN; let’s proceed with that or let me go!” How dare he question the almighty’s ability to run his court and count… bang, 30 days more in jail, until next month for his trial date.

    72.Anon E. Moose says:
    February 6, 2013 at 2:27 pm
    Joyce [69];

    I had to appear on an illegal u-turn ticket recently. I did the dance, I got the standard plea-bargain (this is 4 points, but I’ll knock it down to 2 points, or you can pay (bribe) the state a couple hondo and get zero points…); I waited my turn, I stood up in front of the judge — “yes, your honor…. yes, your honor…” and when it came time to impose the agreed upon fine, he spouts off about “and no jail time on this occasion.” Nope, criminal justice system going soft — no jail time for this heinous traffic offense. I almost asked him to repeat himself, and thought about thanking him obsequiously for “justice with mercy”, but since I was an f-ing grown up I bit my tongue and got on with my life. I suppose the alternative had I indulged by instinct would have been to do a month in the county lockup like this nice young lady did. I hope she thought it was worth it.

  76. joyce says:

    county court = county jail

  77. Essex says:

    Gubmint seeks compliance.

  78. homeboken says:

    Joyce- I think there are better ways to spend one’s time then fighting a no win battle in a court with a judge. A little respect and humility will get you much more than the “I must rail against any authority figure at all costs” approach.

    This kid was a giant brat and the judge probably has to deal with two dozen just like her every day. As Pesce says in Casino “This guy was just begging to be made an example of.”

  79. Fast Eddie says:

    “Tattaglia’s a pimp. He never coulda outfought Santino. But I didn’t know until this day, that it was Barzini all along.”

  80. joyce says:

    I do not disagree. As I eluded to in my initial post on the subject, my problem is with the broken system which manifests itself in people’s minds with commetns like “fighting a no win battle in court.” I couldn’t have said that better myself.

  81. grim says:

    Eastern Europe has a much more efficient legal system, should be a model for the US.

    In those countries, you pay the police officer directly at the time of offense, and that saves everyone the pomp and circumstance of appearing in a court. The outcome is exactly the same, the only difference is who you pay the bribe to.

    Model of efficiency!

  82. Ernest Money says:

    Pay your fine with a bullet to the head.

  83. JJ says:

    HA HA – the damm salt water and destruction of his sprinkler system caused all his newly planted bushes to start to die. They are all yellow now.

    Even better do to flood and cars being destroyed in town they brought back the old bus stop from a million years ago and put it in front of his house, the boys pulled out the pickets for PVC pirate fights. Looks like berut over there. I think when I prayed for God to kill the bushess he went overboard and flooded the whole island.

    Funny part he was screaming at the town over the getting fence permit issue now he needs permits and COs all over place. Flood Insurance is a bitch, everything has to be done to code with licensed people for bank to release funds. Getting licensed people, the town, the bank and the insurance company involved will make him wish he never go flood insurance

    The Original NJ ExPat says:
    February 6, 2013 at 2:26 pm

    joyce – I like hearing the stories about JJ’s neighbors. This is same one with the tall hedge fence blocking JJ’s driveway, then pulled out and replaced with the white PVC picket fence before being sold. JJ – Did the new neighbors take out the PVC fence and plant another hedge fence or was there just one early AM planting incident and that was the old neighbor? And what’s the deal with the shared well on that property? Who shares it?

  84. Phoenix says:

    Joyce, you can’t forget the Morris County judge that was quoted:

    “I’m a judge, bro.”
    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2007/11/arrest_report_says_judge_faile.html

  85. joyce says:

    83
    Grim,
    Killing it today

    96
    Phoenix,

    Why shouldn’t he get special treatment… he’s a judge, bro

  86. grim says:

    Speaking of scungili, when I worked for that Italian joint when I was a kid, I used to drive the town judge home on the weekends when he over did it at the bar. He used to call the cops to drive him home, but turns out taxpayers didn’t like him using town resources as a taxi service, actually, they just didn’t like him. Turns out it was much lower profile to just get the kid in the back to give him a lift. He was a scumbag of the highest order. Remember that story I told about delivering pizza to the illegal casino that was run out of the local coffee and egg sandwich shop basement, the place that would always throw us $100+ tips, yeah, he was a regular there too. I suppose, when the hearing falls between a crack murder and drug trafficking on school grounds, a little tussle between kids isn’t a big deal (they did about $5k in damage to my friends new car while we were brawling).

    You think he’d pay me back for my assistance and discretion when we appeared before his court after we were jumped by a pack of hoodlums from Paterson at the High School, but he recused himself and the town from the case because the court assistant was an aunt of one of the accused. He referred the trial to Paterson (he gave us no choice), which pretty much meant nothing would ever come of it. Two cases later, in both regular and juvenile court, nothing.

    When the local cop told us we should have just gotten baseball bats, and hunted the kids down one by one after the fight broke up, we thought he wasn’t serious. Turns out his was the best advice we got.

  87. Statler Waldorf says:

    Grim, do you use the “door test”?

  88. Painhrtz - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish says:

    Joyce that which is not permitted is forbidden.

    Yeah she mouthed off to the judge and was disrespectful . 30 days in jail, how much is that going to cost the taxpayers cause she insulted his honor? Aren’t the fines and punishment a bit excessive for the “crime” what is that part of the constitution again that he is wiping his a$$ with. Oh thats right the 8th amendment.

  89. Essex says:

    This afternoon CNBC’s “Closing Bell” had a segment about Wall Street’s embarrassing emails being made public.
    The Justice Department released a bunch of emails and IMs from Standard & Poor’s analysts in its $5 billion complaint filed this week.

    Our CEO and Editor-In-Chief Henry Blodget, who had some emails made public by the government during his analyst days, was on set, too.

    Toward the end of the segment, anchor Maria Bartiromo said that one of her New Year’s resolutions was to “start emailing like a guy.”

    Well, that sounds strange.

    The reason, she explained, is that women tend to go on and on in emails with phrases such a “how are you” and “hope all is well” blah, blah, blah before they make their point.

    Men, on the other hand, will just give you a one-word response such as “yup.”

    Makes sense now.

  90. homeboken says:

    Painhrtz said – 30 days in jail, how much is that going to cost the taxpayers cause she insulted his honor?

    I can think of a thousand worse ways for the gov’t to spend this money, if it costs 3k to teach this punk and anyone like her that sees this on the web a lesson, then that is money very well spent.

  91. Comrade Nom Deplume. Apparently. says:

    I’m beginning to regret posting that vid.

  92. JJ says:

    Word

    Essex says:
    February 6, 2013 at 4:57 pm

    This afternoon CNBC’s “Closing Bell” had a segment about Wall Street’s embarrassing emails being made public.
    The Justice Department released a bunch of emails and IMs from Standard & Poor’s analysts in its $5 billion complaint filed this week.

    Our CEO and Editor-In-Chief Henry Blodget, who had some emails made public by the government during his analyst days, was on set, too.

    Toward the end of the segment, anchor Maria Bartiromo said that one of her New Year’s resolutions was to “start emailing like a guy.”

    Well, that sounds strange.

    The reason, she explained, is that women tend to go on and on in emails with phrases such a “how are you” and “hope all is well” blah, blah, blah before they make their point.

    Men, on the other hand, will just give you a one-word response such as “yup.”

  93. Anon E. Moose says:

    Sx [92];

    “start emailing like a guy.”

    You mean like those brilliant drug company execs who responded to the Fen Phen studies by saying “Can I look forward to my waning years signing checks for fat people who are afraid of some silly lung problem. . . ?” That whopper was from a woman, administrator Kay Anderson, to a woman, Dr. Patty Acri, product labeling director. The jury hit Wyeth for $1B over it. Ask, and ye shall receive, sister.

    (http://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/x/27545/technology/Strategies+and+Tactics+Electronic+Data+in+Litigation)

  94. Essex says:

    96. Bummer. And you think your day sucked.

  95. Ragnar says:

    That chick in court has been watching too many (un)reality shows, seemed to think she was on Candid Camera or some such. A chick like this probably prefers to pay 10k and spend a month in jail as long as she gets lots of youtube hits and perhaps an audition for a reality show or pron video afterward.

  96. chicagofinance says:

    Huzzah!

    Here’s what we heard, while sitting alone in a chair inside that sad, dark disco.

    1. “Heaven” is a Fake-Out
    For some unfathomable reason “Heaven” is the lead single for the album. It follows the template for every Depeche Mode song since producer Ben Hillier’s arrival in 2005: a teasing, minimal drum line, bigger-is-better vocals, and a wide stereo chorus. The only thing out of that order here is the painfully slow tempo. A strong bass groove and tight drum fills shape this syrup into near-trip-hop, but Gahan barrels where he should be fragile. It’s not a bad song, it’s just not the best choice. The good news is that the single is a fake-out: the rest of Delta Machine is harder and weirder.

    2. “Should Be Higher” Should Be Higher
    This death-disco creeper is by far the best track on the album. All the traditional elements of Depeche Mode get held back or rearranged or sung in falsetto so that, while still classic, the song sounds fresh. It’s also the best mix. You know that high whistle on U2′s “With Or Without You,” the one you can’t forget once you hear it the first time? This song has the same thing, only it’s a sizzle.

    3. There Are More Songs About Faith and Devotion
    Martin Gore said that this album would have the vibe of Violator and Songs of Faith and Devotion, which is to say unapologetic pop tinged with blues and guitar. “Slow” and “Goodbye” are his takes on that tradition. The former throws out a big blues guitar line then wanders from the form into a hazy Spiritualized-style gospel choir. The latter is more traditional, a spartan hook turned lush at the chorus. With Flood’s mix, it contains lovely musical moments of vocal excess shifting imperceptibly into instruments. For those of you reading song-lyric tea leaves, this track means just the end of album “goodbye, again,” a bookend to the inconsequential opener “Welcome To My World.”

    4. Even Legends Suffer From Anxiety of Influence
    Depeche Mode are in their third generation of being the biggest synth band on the planet, and for the last decade that honor has mostly been a songwriting curse. The attempts to put boundaries include the minimal techno track “My Little Universe” that actually mostly works, except when Gahan leaves the ominous reptition of “I let no one in / No one” to sing less pithy cliches. “Soft Touch/Raw Nerve” is a revision of history where DM was more industrial than pop when the instruments were and sounded hard. The less said about “Angel”‘s mid-song techno identity crisis, the better.

    5. Yes, Virginia, There’s a Martin Gore Song
    There’s always at least one song sung for Team Gore, and this one is a bitter ballad. “The Child Inside” begins with a solemn Mingus-y bass line that adds big synth pads and flourishes of electronics but little percussion. Listening only once amid chatter made it hard to pick up all Gore’s narrative, but we did catch this: “I can hear that dreadful sound / Watching from afar I see a child’s drowned / The child inside your heart.”

  97. joyce says:

    And who will teach you a lesson?

    93.homeboken says:
    February 6, 2013 at 5:12 pm
    Painhrtz said – 30 days in jail, how much is that going to cost the taxpayers cause she insulted his honor?

    I can think of a thousand worse ways for the gov’t to spend this money, if it costs 3k to teach this punk and anyone like her that sees this on the web a lesson, then that is money very well spent.

  98. Juice Box says:

    re: scungili

    I worked a few years during high school in an Italian joint, a guy from Naploi and and ex-con from Sicili who played the saxaphone owned the place. The word scungili itself brings back memories every-time I hear it. We used to dish it and sell the canned imported stuff too. Amazing how many times I heard the word scungili during a weekend shift., which usually brings a smile to my face remembering my first car and the restaurant owner’s daughter she was a real octopus.

  99. chicagofinance says:

    #clot-files
    #domestic dispute

    Inwood man confesses to setting wife’s head on fire with blowtorch

    First he bought his wife coffee. Then he set her head on fire.

    Officials today released the confession of the Inwood man charged in last month’s blowtorch revenge attacks on his wife and ex-boss — admissions eerie in their mix of the mundane and the maniacal.

    “I woke up this morning around 6 a.m. with the plan already made,” Carlos Diaz, 35, told cops of the morning he doused wife Cathy Zappata in the face with accelerant, than blasted her with a blow torch as she sat in her car in a Pathmark parking lot.

    “I went to Dyckman Bakery to buy her coffee,” he told cops in the confession, released as Diaz pleaded not guilty through an interpreter to two counts of attempted murder.

    Carlos Diaz, 35, hit his estranged wife in the head with the blowtorch, poured a liquid accelerant in her hair and lit her on fire.”I did that to buy more time so that I could take my kid to school and then there wouldn’t be as many people in the mechanic’s shop,” he said.

    Diaz told cops he’d wanted to lure his wife to the 10th Avenue garage, so that he could attack both her and his ex-boss, shop owner Helson Marachena, at the same time.

    “She suspected something,” though, he told cops of his wife, so he doused her on the spot in his car, he said.

    “I sprayed her with starting fluid in her face and everywhere and lit her with a blow torch,” Diaz told cops.

    Lead prosecutor Scott Leet was asked today by Manhattan Supreme Court Justice Gregory Carro to recount the facts of the case, and the prosecutor told the judge that Zappata suffered second degree burns throughout her neck and face.

    “Parts of her hair were singed down to the scalp,” Leet told the judge, who set Diaz’s next date for April 10.

    The ex-boss, Marachena, fared better, the prosecutor told the judge. Diaz admittedly walked to the nearby mechanic’s shop and doused Marachena with accelerant too, according to police and Diaz’s own confession.

    “But the torch wouldn’t light,” Diaz told cops.

  100. Juice Box says:

    Chi – if you ever have martial discord claim you aren’t a flamer..

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