Live in NYC, Rent in Jersey City

From the Jersey Journal:

Rentals, not condos, still rule on this side of Hudson

Despite a booming condo market in New York City, developers on this side of the Hudson River are still wary about shifting their focus away from building rental units any time soon, local experts tell The Jersey Journal.

“It’s too risky,” said Eric Silverman, who with his brother, Paul, has developed numerous Downtown Jersey City properties, including a new rental building under construction next to City Hall.

Financing for condos dried up after the recession, leading to a near-total focus on developing rental units, including at luxury properties like the Beacon in Jersey City. The market for condos in Hudson County won’t return to its former strength for at least a few years, Silverman told The Jersey Journal.

“It’ll be a while before the lenders forget,” he said.

Jonathan Kushner, of KRE Group, said he’s “starting to think about” building condos, but nothing close to the scale of KRE’s $666 million project in Journal Square, which, when finished, will house 1,840 rental apartments in three towers.

The men were part of a discussion on the condo-vs.-rental market at the second annual New Jersey Gold Coast Investment Summit, a confab of developers and investors held earlier this month at Maritime Parc, overlooking Downtown Jersey City and Lower Manhattan.

The developers’ hesitancy to build condos is bad news for real estate financiers like Mark DeLillo, of New York-based investment firm BlueGate Partners. DeLillo told The Jersey Journal he’s willing to pony up the cash if developers like the Silvermans build condos.

“We’ll even raise money for the developer so it looks like they’re fully investing in the deal,” he said, noting the strength of Manhattan’s condo market.

The problem with comparing Jersey City’s market to New York’s, according to Silverman, is that in New York, you can get more than $1,500 a square foot, meaning investors can “make some money.” With prices in Jersey City coming in at half that, he said, the same moneymaking opportunity doesn’t exist.

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108 Responses to Live in NYC, Rent in Jersey City

  1. Juice Box says:

    No worries fog a mirror will be back!

  2. anon (the good one) says:

    dude, just make sure that everything is kosher before getting all going, you don’t want to find a big surprise

    Michael says:
    March 19, 2014 at 9:19 pm
    108- Joyce, if this board took place in the back of some bar, I bet you and me would end the night in the back of the car

  3. grim says:

    From HuffPo:

    4 Reasons It’s So Hard For The Middle Class To Buy A House

    1. Home prices are rising much faster than wages.

    Historically, home prices and income have followed similar paths. A split began around 2000, when wage growth dropped to near zero, even as home prices began to soar. Since then, median household income growth has muddled along, while home prices have behaved like an addict on a meth bender: climbing to dangerous heights in 2006, crashing through the floor over the next few years, and now rising sharply again.

    A recovery from the recent trough benefits many current homeowners, especially those who are underwater (meaning they owe more than their home is worth). But the jump in prices means that homes are becoming increasingly unaffordable.

    In the past two years, from January 2012 to January 2014, prices for existing homes (as opposed to newly built homes) gained 18 percent, according to the National Association of Realtors, the source for the home-price data in the chart above. (The data company Core Logic, which uses a broader metric, estimates that prices were up 21.7 percent over this span). Wage and salary growth over the same time period, meanwhile, was 4.1 percent, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

    2. Fannie Mae has dramatically tightened its lending standards.

    Fannie Mae and its smaller cousin Freddie Mac were created to give middle-class Americans greater access to the housing market. But in the wake of a massive taxpayer bailout, the companies tightened up their standards considerably, even as they began to make huge profits. (Combined, they earned a record $133 billion in 2013. They have now dumped more money back into federal coffers than they received.)

    Fannie and Freddie don’t make mortgage loans directly, but they buy loans from lenders. As such, they set the standards that lenders use to make more than half of all mortgages in the U.S. When they tighten standards, they make low-interest home loans available only to buyers with the best credit.

    The average Fannie Mae borrower credit score from 2001 to 2004 was 718, a few points less than the median credit score of all U.S. consumers. In 2013, the average score was 753, which is at the high end of the credit-score range and considered “excellent” by most lenders.

    3. Fewer homes are listed for sale.

    People just aren’t selling as often as they once did, and new home building slowed dramatically after the financial crash. The number of existing homes on the market accounts for less than five months’ worth of sales, according to the NAR, roughly matching the level of inventory before the housing bubble exploded. Tighter inventory may be contributing to wild price swings, too: When fewer homes are for sale, prices are more volatile.

  4. bergenbuyer says:

    Long time no post. Off topic, but my job my be transferred to Palo Alto. Anyone have any suggestions for ways to research the RE in the area? Grim, do you have a twin brother out there running a similar blog?

  5. grim says:

    4 – Palo Alto? I’d suggest KY. Take the most expensive neighborhoods in Bergen County and double, if not triple the prices. Anything even remotely “affordable” and not in a slum is going to require an hour or more commute.

  6. Richard says:

    Does anyone know how much it costs to build an average condo building? The quote lists the developers as saying they only get half of Manhattan prices, but I’d have thought a 1000 foot apartment would only cost a 2-3 hundred grand to build, so selling @ 750k would be a good deal.

  7. bergenbuyer says:

    I know, I’ve been out there to look at houses. It’s very expensive and the houses are crap on small lots. Saddle River prices for Waldwick homes. I feel like it’s unsustainable, but if XYZ company of 100 employees keeps getting bought by GOOG or FB for $XB there will be folks flush with cash to pay whatever the price is for the home.

    Also, finding another job here isn’t so easy and that’s so that I can commute into the city for 1:45 each day. So, I may have no choice.

  8. chicagofinance says:

    Check out this delusion fcuk on YELP….
    5.0 star rating 3/4/2013

    Since I moved down the block, this is my go-to liquor store in the area. I can admittedly buy many of the same liquors elsewhere for several dollars cheaper, but I come here for their extensive knowledge and friendly service.

    The owner, Chip, is a sommelier and used to be a full-time chef. He knows the perfect wine for every occasion, and has recommended many hits, such as an excellent pino grigio he picked for cooking clams and drinking on Valentines Day. He says he’s tried every wine in his store, and I’d wouldn’t second guess it. He doesn’t have to think twice when asked, and he often recommends inexpensive bottles over higher priced ones he could easily sell.

    The store also has an extensive collection of craft beer and liquor. Cases of wine sell for a 20% discount on every bottle, and if you sign up for their free rewards card you’ll receive 5% back on every purchase. It feels good to go back and pick up a six pack for free after accumulating points. Especially on a Thursday, Friday or Saturday when they have complimentary wine tasting.

  9. Cronut Nom Deplume says:

    [9] chifi

    I don’t know about delusional but a lot of errors. First, I’m almost positive that Chip isn’t the owner. Second, his prices were among the lowest I’ve ever paid for wine and I price shop aggressively so I want to know where and what he’s buying. Third, he spelled Pinot wrong. Everything else is spot on.

  10. Cronut Nom Deplume says:

    Remember the kids games where you look at a picture and find all the things that are wrong? Here’s the reporter explaining a tax issue version. See how many inaccuracies you can find.

    http://www.hlntv.com/article/2014/03/18/instagram-irs-selfies-photos-dad-andy-jarvis?fb_action_ids=10201609254093211&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B227413794125984%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.comments%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

  11. Cronut Nom Deplume says:

    [2] anon’t

    “Michael says:
    March 19, 2014 at 9:19 pm
    108- Joyce, if this board took place in the back of some bar, I bet you and me would end the night in the back of the car”

    Okay, that’s a visual I didn’t need. Someone hand me some mental floss.

  12. Michael says:

    Good call!!

    “anon (the good one) says:
    March 20, 2014 at 7:49 am
    dude, just make sure that everything is kosher before getting all going, you don’t want to find a big surprise”

  13. Michael says:

    Palo Alto is so nice. The downtown reminds me of Ridgewood on the west coast. Stanford campus is beautiful too. Like the other guys said….good luck!! Fast Eddie would have an instant heart attack if he went to a couple of open houses in this town. The area is too flush with new big money, for the avg buyer to compete.

  14. Fast Eddie says:

    Fast Eddie would have an instant heart attack if he went to a couple of open houses in this town. The area is too flush with new big money, for the avg buyer to compete.

    Define “new big money” and the “average buyer.”

  15. grim says:

    I don’t understand how the buyers aren’t scared off by the bandolier of shotgun shells across his chest.

  16. grim says:

    There is nothing average about Palo Alto or the Bay Area.

  17. Bystander says:

    #3 Grim,

    Is 2000 when HGTV came on the air? I am not joking really. The rise of house pron has people believing they are entitled to pottery barn castles with 3% down. In the immortal words of Harv, an older mortgage underwriter that I worked with “look around, 80% of my loans are non-income verification, what else do you think is pushing this economy? There’s nothing else”. This was circa 2006.

  18. Street Justice says:

    Christie looks to undermine Highlands Act: Editorial

    http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/03/christie_looks_to_undermine_highlands_act_editorial.html#incart_river_default

    Now that act is facing its moment of truth. Gov. Chris Christie is openly hostile to the law, but because he knows the Democratic-led Legislature would never repeal it, he has chosen to sabotage its work. He has packed the Highlands Council with conservatives who are openly hostile to the law, an act of breathtaking cynicism. And while the council is supposed to be independent, he strong-armed its weak members into firing the former executive director, Eileen Swan, because she was doing her job effectively.

    Now the council is rewriting its master plan. And that presents a danger. Because if the new council lowers the environmental standards, as seems likely, the governor’s sabotage will have been successful.

    The Highlands Act establishes strict rules on development in the region. And while that is in the state’s collective interest, it does create winners and losers. If a 100-acre farm can no longer be subdivided and sold to builders, it’s worth less than it was. The council meetings often devolve into arguments over compensation.

  19. Michael says:

    14- lol that’s funny….have to say, at least they went out with a bang

  20. Michael says:

    16- Nom, think these comments on that article are fitting for both sides of the debate.

    5:36 pm March 19, 2014
    Courage wrote:
    Has anyone sat back and had the courage to ask the question – “why must a minimum wage be set.” Why is it that corporations which turn over billions of dollars happily reward executives millions, and yet the backbone of their business model – the workers – are paid at the minimum amount the employers are LEGALLY compelled to do so. Capitalism is not about greed, it is about reward – you work hard, you help your company grow, you should reap those rewards. Sadly, corporations have misplaced the moral obligation to reward their workers and only do so to the level stipulated by law. What a sad state of affairs. I support a minimum wage – because without it in law, these workers would be paid nothing if that was legally possible.

    8:50 am March 19, 2014
    counselor wrote:
    It is sad that the liberal’s only care about politics and not the effects of their policies. Quite pathetic actually.

  21. Cronut Nom Deplume says:

    [21] street

    “Gov. Chris Christie is openly hostile to the law, but because he knows the Democratic-led Legislature would never repeal it, he has chosen to sabotage its work. He has packed the Highlands Council with conservatives who are openly hostile to the law, an act of breathtaking cynicism.”

    Christie is taking a few pages from the Obama play book, I see.

  22. Cronut Nom Deplume says:

    [23] Michael

    Hyperbolic to the point of nonsensical.

  23. Anon E. Moose says:

    Richard [6];

    To quote Rodney Dangerfield from Back to School:

    Thornton Melon: Oh, you left out a bunch of stuff.

    Dr. Phillip Barbay: Oh really? Like what for instance?

    Thornton Melon: First of all you’re going to have to grease the local politicians for the sudden zoning problems that always come up. Then there’s the kickbacks to the carpenters, and if you plan on using any cement in this building I’m sure the teamsters would like to have a little chat with ya, and that’ll cost ya. Oh and don’t forget a little something for the building inspectors. Then there’s long term costs such as waste disposal. I don’t know if you’re familiar with who runs that business but I assure you it’s not the boyscouts.

  24. Michael says:

    21- I really hope they don’t throw away this law. It’s in our best interest to take care of this area. Why would they want to destroy the last wilderness on the north side of the state, which is also the source of our drinking water? Stupidity at play.

  25. Michael says:

    Avg= the typical home buyer looking for a house in the range of 200,000. -good luck finding a closet for 200,000 in Palo Alto.

    new big money= the technology effect…..loads of overnight millionaires– good luck competing with a bunch of people, in which price means nothing.

    Trust me, if you think north jersey is bad, palo alto will surely give you a heart attack..

    Fast Eddie says:
    March 20, 2014 at 9:31 am
    Fast Eddie would have an instant heart attack if he went to a couple of open houses in this town. The area is too flush with new big money, for the avg buyer to compete.

    Define “new big money” and the “average buyer.”

  26. 1987 Condo says:

    Was in Mountainview last week…83 degrees, perfect weather…unfortunately the 40 minute drive to San Ramon took 150 minutes, apparently traffic starts at 3 pm…..ugh

  27. grim says:

    Highlands Act?

    What a corrupt piece of trash.

    You’ll find everything you need to know about Highlands Act when you look at a detailed map. Ask yourself – how were the borders of the Highlands area chosen? Why did they include or exclude certain parcels of land?

    Secondly, it represents an illegal seizure of someone’s property rights, without just compensation.

    Imagine if, two years before Highlands, you purchased a property with the intent to develop, you paid $1m for it.

    After Highlands, your property can no longer be developed, you’ve now lost a significant amount of money. It’s like eminent domain without any payment at all.

    Is that right?

  28. Painhrtz - Disobey! says:

    Bergen buyer my former employer had an office out there. the employees often drove over an hour to get to work to avoid the cost of living. sorry you moved somewhere worse than BC cost wise. Just rent.

  29. Fast Eddie says:

    Michael,

    Palo Alto was insane in price when you were still sh1tin’ your diaper. I know all about it. Don’t try an educate or advise some of us when we’ve “been there and back” about a thousand times.

  30. Libtard in Union says:

    Cali property is ludicrous in so many places. I lived in Los Angeles and nearly bought a place up on Mount Washington. $400 to $600 per sq. foot is not unusual there and it’s gangland down the hill. Though the views are truly to die for and the commute to downtown LA, where I worked, would have been short.

  31. grim says:

    I know someone who had purchased a building lot in the 80s with the intent of building their “dream home” once they had the means to do so.

    Post Highlands, this lot is no longer buildable, even though he now has the means.

    He paid property taxes on this property for 20+ years, intending to build.

    Now, he can visit the lot and have a picnic. The neighbors won’t even buy it from him, and why would they, they get access to a nice wooded buffer, and they don’t need to pay property taxes on it.

    He fights every year to get a hardship variance to build.

    Imagine if one day you got a knock on your door telling you to vacate your house, as it is now in an ecologically sensitive area and will be torn down. You get no compensation for it, and you can’t use the property any more, but you’ll still be expected to pay taxes.

  32. Libtard in Union says:

    I would stop paying taxes and allow the town to take over the land.

  33. grim says:

    35 – That is not without pain, tax liens, etc. Easier option would be to gift the land to the town I believe.

  34. Street Justice says:

    People who live in the Highlands were fcuking robbed. More of your constitutional rights trampled by the government…right in front of your eyes….in plain view….nobody cares….BOHICA

    Fifth Amendment to the US constitution:

    No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; NOR SHALL PRIVATE PROPERTY BE TAKEN FOR PUBLIC USE, WITHOUT JUST COMPENSATION.

  35. joyce says:

    grim,
    Has that law stood up to legal (constitutional) challenges?

  36. grim says:

    IDCAYB – I don’t care about your backyard

  37. Fast Eddie says:

    I propose that we change the de facto Amerikan motto to “F.uck You, Pay Me!”

  38. Painhrtz - Disobey! says:

    my least favorite rights trampling agency the ATF

    http://reason.com/reasontv/2014/03/19/ares-armor-ceo-fights-atf-to-maintain-cu

    The highlands act is essentially government sanctioned theft, but hey it is government that is OK. this is from someone who loves the highlands and would like to see them preserved as richly as possible. not at the expense of rightful property owners.

  39. Street Justice says:

    Did everyone figure out how they’re going to get rid of their 15 round magazines once Christie signs A2006 into law?

  40. Anon E. Moose says:

    Street [42];

    What 15-round magazines? What firearm?

  41. Street Justice says:

    The legislature is ramming bill A2006 through the legislature…it bans magazines for firearms that hold more than ten rounds. If you can’t get a 10 round magazine for your firearm, or it has a fixed magazine tube, I guess that means tough sh1t.

    http://c.ymcdn.com/sites/www.anjrpc.org/resource/resmgr/DS-Email/ANJRPC_Alert_02-27-14_Mag_Gu.pdf

  42. Libtard in Union says:

    ” If you can’t get a 10 round magazine for your firearm, or it has a fixed magazine tube, I guess that means tough sh1t.”

    I’m sure this will have a huge impact on Hakim’s gun purchasing decisions down in Greenville and Vailsburg.

  43. Anon E. Moose says:

    Once again, its not a class war, its a generational war. The Locust Generation is winning.

    https://www.facebook.com/GenLocust

  44. Anon E. Moose says:

    Street [44];

    You misapprehended the naive tone of my questions.

  45. Michael says:

    30- Grim, thanks for the education on the Highlands Act. I agree that it is unfair, but I also agree that we need to protect our water and have balance in terms of development. We can’t make Jersey one continuous development, and expect it to not have future consequences. So now the question is, how do you address this issue without violating people’s rights to clean water and at the same time address the rights of the property owner.

  46. Michael says:

    46- Moose, I totally agree with your theory. I think demographics are the reason the economy is in the toilet. It’s funny to listen to the older generation rag on the current generation, when this older generation is responsible for the mess in our govt at every level. Just kick the can, so the next generation can pick it up.

  47. grim says:

    how do you address this issue without violating people’s rights to clean water and at the same time address the rights of the property owner.

    Money would be a good first start. If we feel we need to protect the land, then we buy the land and deed it to the public trust. We don’t commit the equivalent of theft by legislating away someone’s rights.

    Imagine how much less water we’d use and less water pollution we would generate if we bulldozed all of Newark? Why isn’t that an option?

  48. Michael says:

    When I said new money, I didn’t mean this year. I meant “new money” meaning new to having big money. Palo alto would be nothing without the internet or technology. I wasn’t quite in diapers at the time the land value started to become valuable, but you are pretty close. It became valuable in the 90s.

    Fast Eddie says:
    March 20, 2014 at 10:38 am
    Michael,

    Palo Alto was insane in price when you were still sh1tin’ your diaper. I know all about it. Don’t try an educate or advise some of us when we’ve “been there and back” about a thousand times.

  49. Ottoman says:

    Real estate is an investment. All investments carry risk, unless you’re an investment banker, then you get paid regardless. It’s funny when a real estate agent claims otherwise. Of course the highlands law took a decade to happen so it’s not like there wasn’t plenty of time to act.

    If Exxon built a pipeline next to your friends land and it exploded rendering it uninhabitable, most of the people on this page would chalk it up to the free market and have no problem with Exxon handing out pizza coupons as compensation. Yet they b!tch when government action yields the same results.

    It’s also an interesting fact that the towns with the most restrictive building requirements are generally the most desirable. There is no difference between the 5 to 15 acre zoning in many towns in the somerset and morris hills and the 25 acre requirement in highlands. Except perhaps their motivations. One is designed to keep people out while the other is designed to benefit the people of the state. If you think the highlands law should be repealed because it is a taking of rights, then you must also be for the people on the country roads of Mendham being allowed to subdivide into quarter acre lots and build high rises and strip malls on their land.

    “I know someone who had purchased a building lot in the 80s with the intent of building their “dream home” once they had the means to do so.

    Post Highlands, this lot is no longer buildable, even though he now has the means.

    He paid property taxes on this property for 20+ years, intending to build.”

  50. Street Justice says:

    Ottoman, do you think the Highlands act is constitutional?

  51. Street Justice says:

    http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/14/03/19/revitalizing-suburbia-giving-aging-malls-and-office-parks-a-second-lease-on-life/?p=1

    Revitalizing Suburbia: Giving Aging Malls and Office Parks a New Lease on Life
    Tara Nurin | March 19, 2014
    Rather than standing empty, yesterday’s archetypes of suburban sprawl are being reinvented as vibrant places to work, play, and live
    Holmdel’s iconic Bell Labs Research complex — the site of at least one Nobel prize discovery — now has another distinction, one that residents and elected officials would sooner do without.

    The circa 1962 complex is the largest empty office building in the nation.

    Architecturally significant for its mirrored glass façade, the 2 million-square-foot facility has sat abandoned on its 473-acre campus since 2006.

    The empty building exemplifies the deep trouble that New Jersey’s office parks and shopping centers face, victims of the recent trend that favors reinvesting in urban centers over continuing suburban and exurban sprawl — a trend taking hold across the state and the country.

    This urban migration compounds the problem of an existing glut of retail space that real estate analyst Jeff Otteau predicts will meet the state’s needs for another 17 years. He also cites a surfeit of office space that won’t be used up until 2043. And because the state’s suburban corporate and commercial construction boomed more than 20 years ago, the New Jersey League of Municipalities Educational Foundation calls the current building stock not just aging but obsolete.

    Some developers and municipalities are finding success creatively reusing these so-called stranded assets, converting them into mixed-use projects that offer a place to live and a place to work — vibrant daytime and nighttime activities.

    But to do that, they first have to ensure cooperation from the public and loosen zoning restrictions that allow for corporate or commercial use only. Only then can they hope to reverse the tide and keep these structures relevant.

    “Information technology, globalization, and demographics have changed the very internal functions of office buildings, and their preferred locations,” the foundation wrote last summer to promote a forum on redeveloping suburban office parks.

    Yet there are some creative methods being employed to transform these properties into mixed-use campuses that can serve as examples to other cities.

    The Holmdel Bell Labs complex and the CooperDale Plaza in Somerdale, Camden County, are two examples. The developers and municipalities driving these successful projects say they’ve managed to win over the public, change restrictive zoning laws, and create adaptive places that combine living, working, and playing in ways that, said Bell Labs developer Ralph Zucker, “bring urban life back to suburbia.”

    snip

    Shifting the Zoning Paradigm
    Part of the challenge in rehabbing old suburban spaces, say planners, is local governments’ resistance to rezoning these properties to accommodate multiple uses or housing — especially housing, which will more students in local schools. After all, these municipalities were happy to encourage commercial development in the first place, thanks to the perception that it generates tax revenues while requiring few services. But without variances or rewrites, land-use experts warn municipalities will suffer indefinitely under the weight of non-ratable or non-revenue-generating dinosaurs.

    “It’s not that there are so many outdated buildings in New Jersey or the United States but usually the zoning is archaic,” said Zucker. “We’ve zoned many of our most prominent places into obsolescence. We’re forgetting places evolve over time.”

    At last year’s NJLM forum on the future of suburban office parks, several prominent speakers instructed municipalities shouldering declining office ratables to work with developers to turn their stranded assets into opportunities. Those that don’t do so risk running out of space to accommodate the changing needs of the workforce and pushing out kids who may grow up to contribute to the local economy.

    Writing for New Jersey Future, Director of Communications Elaine Clisham summarized a presentation by Joseph Maraziti, former chair of the state planning commission. “As the quantity of developable land decreases and the state’s population increases, the need for sites like these will increase since they will represent the only viable growth areas. He recommends that municipalities go through the difficult task of reexamining their zoning ordinances to ensure that they encourage creative reuse of such sites — reuse, he says, in ways that citizens haven’t yet been able to imagine or understand.”

  52. Street Justice says:

    ” So now the question is, how do you address this issue without violating people’s rights to clean water and at the same time address the rights of the property owner.”

    That’s exactly the kind of thinking lawmakers need to do BEFORE THEY PASS THE LEGISLATION!!!!

  53. Michael says:

    The man has a strong argument. All investments carry risk. <-this is true Exxon example<- strong point too

    Grim, your friend complaining that he lost out, is no different than someone in Franklin Lakes complaining that the building of 208 or 287, will destroy their land value by having this highway in their backyard. Sure the highway will increase the land value of everyone else and provide a better life for everyone else, but the people with properties next to the highway get the shaft. I don't know if it's a good example, but I think it makes sense. The highland law is benefiting the rest of the state by protecting our resources and preventing over development, but killing the property owners.

    "Ottoman says:
    March 20, 2014 at 1:12 pm
    Real estate is an investment. All investments carry risk, unless you’re an investment banker, then you get paid regardless. It’s funny when a real estate agent claims otherwise. Of course the highlands law took a decade to happen so it’s not like there wasn’t plenty of time to act.

    If Exxon built a pipeline next to your friends land and it exploded rendering it uninhabitable, most of the people on this page would chalk it up to the free market and have no problem with Exxon handing out pizza coupons as compensation. Yet they b!tch when government action yields the same results."

  54. grim says:

    Of course the highlands law took a decade to happen so it’s not like there wasn’t plenty of time to act.

    Act? What do you mean act? Here are your actions:

    1) Rush to build before Highlands – negating the purpose of Highlands?
    2) Sell the property to someone else under false pretenses, screwing them in the process?

    Neither or these seem like good options.

    Secondly, if you were going to strip someone of their property rights, why would you expect them to continue to pay the same property taxes as pre-Highlands?

    Or are all of these people that had their rights stripped from them just paying their “fair share”. Surprising how easy it is to give away someone else’s property and rights in the name of the “common good”.

  55. grim says:

    Look, I agree with the principal of highlands, what I’m arguing is that the people that lost the development rights that they had should be compensated for the lost value, this is no different from eminent domain. These people deserve to be paid, we stole from them. Arguing that it was for good reason doesn’t make it any less than theft.

    The fact that there was no monetary compensation accounted for, made this law easy to pass, because it was the masses taking from the few.

    But if you think that this is right, then one day when there is a knock on your door telling you to that you need to leave, with no compensation, you better not fight back claiming it isn’t fair that you need to give up your property or rights, when your neighbor doesn’t.

  56. xolepa says:

    (52) If Exxon built a pipeline next to your friends land and it exploded rendering it uninhabitable, most of the people on this page would chalk it up to the free market and have no problem with Exxon handing out pizza coupons as compensation. Yet they b!tch when government action yields the same results.

    I don’t think so, and the analogy is completely nonsensical.

    About 20 years ago an underground natural gas pipeline exploded outside an apartment complex in Edison. The fire was intense, burned down just about the whole complex, but I don’t remember anyone dying.

    By the next day, a law form set up shop in the complex, complete with a trailer, RE style. They signed up so many clients that day that the NJ Supremes declared the entire legal jockeying an abomination.

    Lesson: no one gets away with any of that dung in NJ. Even if it’s not their fault. It turned out that the gas line, about 10 feet down in the ground, was clipped several years prior by a bulldozer when he was burying a pickup truck in an insurance scam. The pipeline company was still declared at fault. Don’t get me started on that argument.

  57. xolepa says:

    (56) Highway analogy. Again, wrong.

    Highways in your back yard work two ways: They destroy your lifestyle or they can make you rich.

    Case in point, Davidson Avenue in Somerset: My parents bought land on that road before 287 was built or even on the map. They had only an acre and a half. After the highway was built, the town rezoned the properties to commercial. May parents were stuck with a house and nothing else. The other property owners with larger lots, 5 acres+, sold out in the early eighties for over $100k an acre. Big money for RE, then. One family sold their non-functioning egg farm and sec. 1031 swapped up to a huge big box shopping center. Income for life.

  58. JJ says:

    A 15 round magazine is when a couple of teenage boys get ahold of the SI Swimsuit edition

  59. Michael says:

    Why is my analogy wrong? “Sure the highway will increase the land value of everyone else and provide a better life for everyone else, but the people with properties next to the highway get the shaft.”

    So basically, your family was one of the families who’s land went up in value due to the highway.

    xolepa says:
    March 20, 2014 at 2:16 pm
    (56) Highway analogy. Again, wrong.

  60. Michael says:

    58- I agree…..we should just buy them out and protect our future. It doesn’t matter how much it costs. You can’t put a price on protecting your water supply, plain and simple.

    “But if you think that this is right, then one day when there is a knock on your door telling you to that you need to leave, with no compensation, you better not fight back claiming it isn’t fair that you need to give up your property or rights, when your neighbor doesn’t.”

  61. grim says:

    Why not just make the whole state “highlands”? Surely there is a salamander, tree frog, sloth, rare bunny, brook trout, platypus in every town that needs protecting.

  62. joyce says:

    Brian,
    You actually expect Ottoman to actually respond to someone?

  63. Michael says:

    Ben, this is for you. How can someone say you are overpaid? Just do the math. Looks like we are robbing teachers blind based on how much we pay baby sitters. Remember a baby sitter is more than likely a teenager with no skills, never mind a degree. Also a baby sitter doesn’t even have to teach. lol hope you get a kick out of this.

    “Teachers are just glorified babysitters!
    Comeback: OK, you can pay me what you pay your babysitter. Ten dollars an hour for six hours (even though I actually work 9 or 10 hours a day) is $60 a day, times five days a week (even though I often work weekends) is $300, times 36 weeks a year (even though I’m taking classes and professional development year-round), is $10,800 – but that’s just for one student. Multiply that by 30 students and that’s $324,000. That’s a good start.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2014/03/15/ten-clueless-things-people-say-to-teachers-and-comebacks-teachers-can-throw-right-back/

  64. Painhrtz - Disobey! says:

    grim if you count the pine barrens preservation act it pretty much is.

    I totally like the cut of your jib on this lets bulldoze newark and camden it is for the public good after all

  65. Painhrtz - Disobey! says:

    Michael I’ll stand by what I said the other day teachers chose their profession if they think the compensation is unfair or they did not know what they were getting into. They can quit.

    I know enough teachers through me wife some are really smart some I have no idea how they made it through college. All knew what they were getting into.

  66. JJ says:

    For 324K I would expect an elementary teacher to be smoking hot. Be a great teacher, do free tutoring for students and take turns baby sitting for parents on weekends and at least once a month blow me.

  67. Michael says:

    Or let’s just get of all regulations surrounding ownership of land…..just imagine what kind of sh!t show new jersey would turn into. You have to have some kind of balance. You can’t just let people do what they want because they will just destroy everything to make a buck now, and leave the future generation with the consequences. I mean how many super fund sights am I paying for right now to get cleaned up with tax payer money? The taxpayer paying the bill, was not even alive when it happened. That’s fair? Meanwhile the family that caused that pollution, made their money, and are now living it up, far away from the community they destroyed.

    grim says:
    March 20, 2014 at 2:28 pm
    Why not just make the whole state “highlands”? Surely there is a salamander, tree frog, sloth, rare bunny, brook trout, platypus in every town that needs protecting.

  68. JJ says:

    Once you get too old for the stripper pole there is always teaching

    Painhrtz – Disobey! says:
    March 20, 2014 at 2:41 pm

    Michael I’ll stand by what I said the other day teachers chose their profession if they think the compensation is unfair or they did not know what they were getting into. They can quit.

    I know enough teachers through me wife some are really smart some I have no idea how they made it through college. All knew what they were getting into.

  69. Michael says:

    You think 10 dollars an hour to watch your kid is too much? Drop it down to 5 dollars an hour and you still are paying teachers over a 150,000 for their time with your child.

    “Painhrtz – Disobey! says:
    March 20, 2014 at 2:41 pm
    Michael I’ll stand by what I said the other day teachers chose their profession if they think the compensation is unfair or they did not know what they were getting into. They can quit.

    I know enough teachers through me wife some are really smart some I have no idea how they made it through college. All knew what they were getting into.”

  70. Michael says:

    72- Point is, don’t say teacher are overpaid, when obviously they are not. WE JUST APPLIED THE GOING RATE FOR A TEENAGE BABYSITTER TO A TEACHER AND YOU ARE UP TO 324,000. That is a fact. Obviously, you are not going to pay that, but the point is, don’t be so quick to say 70,000 for a teacher is too much. That is wrong in every way possible. .

  71. Michael says:

    An police officer gets paid way more than a teacher. Way better pension and retirement. Ok, the police officer job is unsafe. We pay police to be in our schools. The same schools that teachers work in every day. So this cop is making twice as much as teacher, working in the same place, and doesn’t have to teach the kids….pretty fair. That sounds about right.

    Policing in general, how much are they in contact with individuals on an hourly basis. Look at how many kids the teacher has to watch over and teach in an hour. How can you sit here and say 70,000 is too much for a teacher, when you have cops making 150,000 patrolling the streets of wayne.

  72. Painhrtz - Disobey! says:

    Micheal I’m fine with them making that much as long as they have the experience and year after year results to back it up. Trade off is bye bye golden parachute retirement benefits and medical.

    As far as your land comment do you think every human being is going to act against their own self interests. It is their property they may do as they see fit. As long as they are not harming others which if they were the courts could take care of it.

    government should not legislate against an individuals rights and personal property. Sadly that has not been the case in this country in a long time.

  73. Michael says:

    No teacher is going to work for 70,000 with no benefits. They are totally getting ripped off if that’s the case. Take away their benefits, and you will have to pay more.

    Truth be, myself included, people judge other people’s earnings without really understanding what that person goes through. Ok, you say 70,000 with benefits is too much for a teacher, but at the same time you are ok with a CEO making 10 million in a year? How can you justify a human being making 10 million in a year, and then at the same time say someone who is making 100,000 is overpaid. That person making 100,000 will never ever make 10 million in a lifetime. Hell, not even in two lifetimes, and that’s without spending a dollar.

    So you see this is the problem with our society. It’s easy to say a cop or teacher makes too much, but are ok with people making millions in one year. Like it’s justifiable? How are you paying the person an hour to accrue 10 million in one year? Have someone follow a CEO around for one year, and let’s have this person justify that kind of money. Remember ceo’s still get paid huge bonuses for driving companies into the ground, don’t tell me they are highly skilled and intelligent, when they don’t perform perfectly getting paid that kind of money. More than a person at 100,000 a year can make in two lifetimes.

    So please tell me how someone making a 100,000 is overpaid when you have people out there making billions.

    “Micheal I’m fine with them making that much as long as they have the experience and year after year results to back it up. Trade off is bye bye golden parachute retirement benefits and medical.”

  74. Painhrtz - Disobey! says:

    umm I was agreeing with you on the 150K, just said get rid of their golden parachute benefits that is the trade off not get rid of benefits entirely.

    mikey the market will pay what the market will bear if the shareholders of a company think some numbnuts is worth 10 million that is their right

  75. joyce says:

    I love static comparisons. Is it possible party A is underpaid and/or party B is overpaid?

  76. Ragnar says:

    Mike,
    Your typical big bucks Fortune 500 CEO is guiding the direction of billions of dollars of physical assets, and tens of thousands of employees, in an enterprise whose stock is valued in tens of billions of dollars. A CEO getting paid $10,000,000 as the top manager of a ten billion market value company, is basically getting a management fee of one tenth of one percent of market value per year. Usually, compensation will be structured so that he or she makes more money when the company and stock are performing well.

    The owners of such organizations (shareholders) are willing to pay millions because the decisions a CEO makes directly influences successes or failures that are valued by the billions.

    There is dramatically more pay for performance in CEO compensation than there is in public employee compensation. And I say that with full knowledge that there are large number of poor-performing and non-optimally compensated CEOs out there, as well as a large number of consultants to boards of directors thinking about ways to better incentivize CEO performance.

  77. Michael says:

    Ok Joyce….if you make 100k, it takes 100 years, without spending a dollar on anything including taxes, to make 10 million. How can you justify 100 years of working as a teacher to one years of work for a CEO. This economic system is beyond fu/ked. The system of inequality is so beyond repair it’s not even funny. We have citizens walking around worth billions, and you guys defend one person having this kind of money, on the basis he earned it. Well when the fu/k is it enough? How much more are you going to keep taking? This stuff makes no sense to me at all. We persecute that only make a 100,000 as a ripoff, but we defend owning billions. I can’t even wrap my head around a billion dollars. Do you know what kind of value that is?!?! It’s mind blowing that someone could accrue 1 billion, never mind 76 billion. It’s insane! Why am I the only person that finds it crazy that someone is worth 76 billion, while at the same time, this person is living amongst a population, where 50% aren’t worth a dollar…..wow! It’s really mind blowing when you think about it.

    Rant off….sorry Joyce I’m passionate

  78. Michael says:

    Sorry about all the grammatical errors in my posts….have no time to proofread

  79. Michael says:

    77- sorry pain, I thought you meant 70,000 with no benefits.

  80. Theo says:

    Shareholders have little say over executive compensation

  81. Theo says:

    Same way taxpayers seem to have little say over the pay of most public employees

  82. Anon E. Moose says:

    Michael [80];

    Rant off….sorry Joyce I’m passionate

    Passionately ignorant. Who made you king? Why do you get to say what a CEO is worth v. what a teacher is worth? You REALLY don’t want someone else, say me for example, to decide what you are worth… just trust me on that one.

    Grim’s right, you’re really generous with other people’s money. Any teacher you think is underpaid might be happy to accept your largess. Just keep your hand out of my pocket.

  83. Anon E. Moose says:

    Michael [73];

    WE JUST APPLIED THE GOING RATE FOR A TEENAGE BABYSITTER TO A TEACHER AND YOU ARE UP TO 324,000.

    Stop yelling. And learn market economics. The babysitter gets paid intermittently, with no expectation of any minimum quantity of work, or when it might come. On the other hand, the teacher knows what their year is going to look like. Just like Costco, when you buy in bulk, you get a discount.

  84. joyce says:

    Retard,
    Perhaps I was referring to your comparison of Wayne cop vs teacher? As to who is over/under paid

  85. joyce says:

    86
    Moose,
    All fair points, but how can one (not you, him) compare the value of alleged one on one attention to 30 on 1?

    With 30 kids in the class, is the teacher spending all six hours of their time with just one kid?… necessitating the same hourly payment.

  86. Michael says:

    86- ok, so then you are justifying teachers are paid appropriately, which is what I was saying the whole time. Meaning, they should earn 90-100,000 based on bulk discount

    “just like Costco, when you buy in bulk, you get a discount”

  87. Michael says:

    Joyce, as I take it, teachers are managers that must also teach. If you want one on one time for the entire time, it’s going to cost you more than 10 dollars an hour. If anything, having 30 kids means a teacher never ever gets a break. It assures us that they are always working. You know how kids are, you always have to be on top of them, never mind 30.

  88. joyce says:

    You’re the retard who’s comparing $10/hr for one kid to $10/hr per kid. Once you figure out there’s a difference between the two, then come back and dicuss.

    90.Michael says:
    March 20, 2014 at 6:21 pm
    Joyce, as I take it, teachers are managers that must also teach. If you want one on one time for the entire time, it’s going to cost you more than 10 dollars an hour.

  89. Michael says:

    91- I was looking at it through the eyes of a parent. I wasn’t looking at it from the teachers standpoint. Meaning, if you want your kid to have one on one instruction (aka non-conventional one on one outside the classroom type education), it’s going to cost you, the parent, more than 10 dollars an hour.

  90. Anon E. Moose says:

    Michael [89];

    Finny, after you pay for their benefits and pension, that’s about the price it costs to employ them.

    But that’s not the point, or at least not my point. My point is that the market sets the price, based on how much the next person is willing to take to do the same job. Since there are so many people willing to do the job, the bids get depressed. Which is why the profession unionized, to squash labor competition on the supply side.

    You think corralling 30 kids is tough? Try flying an airplane at 400 MPH at 30k ft with no breathable oxygen outside, 70 people behind you, and the boss takes few excuses for not going, or being late, or burning too much fuel. Then peek at what regional airline co-pilots make. Same dynamic at work. I personally think the pilot is worth a hell of a lot more than he’s getting paid. But neither you nor I get to make that call as to pilots or to teachers. I know this fact. You should learn it.

  91. Michael says:

    Well said, and I’m taking your advice.

    Please remind me if I ever start defending teachers or any type of profession, as valued or undervalued, that I am wasting my time, it’s not my fight, or my decision on what someone gets paid, it’s just the nature of the beast.

    “You think corralling 30 kids is tough? Try flying an airplane at 400 MPH at 30k ft with no breathable oxygen outside, 70 people behind you, and the boss takes few excuses for not going, or being late, or burning too much fuel. Then peek at what regional airline co-pilots make. Same dynamic at work. I personally think the pilot is worth a hell of a lot more than he’s getting paid. But neither you nor I get to make that call as to pilots or to teachers. I know this fact. You should learn it.”

  92. anon (the good one) says:

    @BenedictEvans: Google is the new Microsoft,
    Samsung is the new Nokia &
    Facebook is trying hard to be the new Facebook.
    But not clear Apple is the new Apple

  93. joyce says:

    Meds must have kicked in

  94. anon (the good one) says:

    @jlopezvalcarcel: @BenedictEvans Facebook is the new AOL
    , whatsapp is the new ICQ

  95. anon (the good one) says:

    what are you taking, your hands shaking?

    joyce says:
    March 20, 2014 at 7:04 pm
    Meds must have kicked in

  96. anon (the good one) says:

    @Reuters: Twitter says looking into reports that service banned in Turkey http://t.co/bgNc1yrguI

  97. Ben says:

    Ben, this is for you. How can someone say you are overpaid? Just do the math. Looks like we are robbing teachers blind based on how much we pay baby sitters. Remember a baby sitter is more than likely a teenager with no skills, never mind a degree. Also a baby sitter doesn’t even have to teach. lol hope you get a kick out of this.

    Michael, didn’t really enjoy it as much as you’d expect.

    Some of it was pure kool-aid. I wish my union would bargain for higher salaries. I wish they would bargain for some sort of merit based system. My contract is clearly structured to ever prevent me from getting a real raise in district. The only option is to go somewhere else and demand more money, which I will do.

    With the tenure thing, tenure purely exists to protect incompetent teachers. I’ve seen too many teachers mail it in on a daily basis while all the young enthusiastic teachers get laid off during budget crunches.

    The summers off thing. I do plenty of prep work over the summer but it’s not nearly as rigorous as the regular school year. Everyone in Jersey works those “summer hours” along Rt. 1. They also get vacation whenever they want. The summers off thing ain’t all its cracked up to be, but it is nice. If it didn’t exist, you’d have an entire work force completely burnt out. Unlike Wall St., we don’t snort coke to keep ourselves going.

    Managing 30 kids is easy if you know what you are doing. It’s the least of my concerns as a teacher. But it does take talent to do it.

    As far as custodians, secretaries, and lunch ladies being in the union, I’m 100% against it. I’m against being in the same union as elementary school teachers. Why should a kindergarten teacher start out as the same salary as me? I have 4 times the education that she does and there is an extremely short supply of people teaching my subject.

    Teachers object to merit pay because they are insecure. My students scores speak for themselves and I’m pretty sure there might not be a single teacher in the state that can hold a candle to the scores my students delivered last year. It’s not hard to figure out who the good teachers are. The staff, parents, and students all know who is good and who is not.

  98. Libturd at home says:

    @Libtard: Wish Twitter was looking into reports that service was banned on anon’s smartphone.

  99. Street Justice says:

    Ha ha!

    Bob Menendez is banned from Russia

    (Alex Remnick)
    By Darryl Isherwood/NJ.com
    Email the author | Follow on Twitter
    on March 20, 2014 at 4:25 PM, updated March 20, 2014 at 5:25 PM
    View/Post Comments
    Hopefully, U.S. Sen. Bob Menendez had no plans to summer in Moscow this year as he’s been banned from Russia.

    Menendez was one of six federal lawmakers who along with a number of advisors to President Obama, were banned from Russia in retaliation for U.S. economic sanctions imposed by the president. The president announced the sanction today over what he called the “illegitimate” annexation of Crimea by the Russians.

    Along with Menendez, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, House Speaker John Boehner, Sens. Mary Landrieu, Daniel Coats and John McCain were banned along with Obama advisors Caroline Atkinson, Daniel Pfeiffer, and Benjamin Rhodes.

    In a statement, Menendez had tough words for the Russian president, Vladimir Putin.

    “President Putin’s military invasion and annexation of Crimea is brutal, totally unacceptable, and sadly returns us to a period of Cold War aggression and hostility,” Menendez, who is chairman of the powerful Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, said in a statement. “It doesn’t have to be this way but, if standing up for the Ukrainian people, their freedom, their hard earned democracy and sovereignty means I’m sanctioned by Putin, so be it.”

    McCain also released a statement on his ban.

    “I guess this means my spring break in Siberia is off, my Gazprom stock is lost, and my secret bank account in Moscow is frozen,” he said in the statement posted to his website. “Nonetheless, I will never cease my efforts on behalf of the freedom, independence, and territorial integrity of Ukraine, including Crimea.”

    Coats also joked about his inclusion on the Russian’s list.

    “While I’m disappointed that I won’t be able to go on vacation with my family in Siberia this summer, I am honored to be on this list,” said Coats in a statement to Slate. “Putin’s recent aggression is unacceptable, and America must join with our European allies to isolate and punish Russia. I will continue to lead efforts on Capitol Hill to bring Putin to his senses.”

    MORE U.S. AND WORLD NEWS
    FOLLOW THE STAR-LEDGER: TWITTER • FACEBOOK • GOOGLE+

    UKRAINE CRISIS
    Putin’s sanctions underscore his weakness: Editorial
    Bob Menendez is banned from Russia
    U.S. responses to Ukraine crisis are weak, hypocritical: Letters
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  100. Michael says:

    Ben, you make some really good points. I agree with you. Very well written and representative of the skills you bring to the table as a teacher.

    Keep up the good work. It’s people like you that make this world a better place. Nothing for nothing, I hope my daughter ends up having a teacher like you.

  101. Cronut Nom Deplume says:

    Looks liked I missed the Michael Show.

  102. Cronut Nom Deplume says:

    [103] Michael,

    I hope my daughters have teachers who know more about the subjects they teach than I do.

    It’s bad enough that I see glaring errors in their self prepared materials and in the grading. It’s worse when one considers that my girls are in elementary school. And it’s deplorable when you consider that we are talking about math, spelling, basic grammar, etc.

    I saw this in the Brig from one teacher so often, I considered her illiterate. She drove to school in a new Lexus convertible.

  103. Michael says:

    Hilarious….was she at least considered eye candy?

    “I saw this in the Brig from one teacher so often, I considered her illiterate. She drove to school in a new Lexus convertible.”

  104. Michael says:

    I really have to side with the point Ben made. There is no way he should be making the same amount as a gym teacher or elementary school teacher. That’s def unfair, but I guess that’s just the nature of the beast.

  105. Very good blog post. I certainly appreciate this website.
    Keep it up!