A million dollars a job subsidy, nothing to see here, move on.

From the Star Ledger:

N.J. gives $260 million tax break to energy company with political ties

New Jersey officials today approved a $260 million package of tax credits — the third-largest economic subsidy in state history — for a nuclear-energy company planning to build reactors on the Camden waterfront.

It was the largest tax subsidy awarded in recent years by the state Economic Development Authority, and it went to Holtec International, a Marlton-based company whose board includes one of the state’s most influential Democrats, George Norcross.

Under the terms of the award, Holtec will create 235 new full-time positions and relocate 160 existing jobs from other parts of the state to Camden. Once those workers are in place, the firm will reap subsidies of $26 million a year for 10 years.

In exchange, New Jersey will realize $155,520 in net economic benefits over 35 years, the authority estimated. Under the terms of the agreement, however, the company is required to stay at the Camden location for only 15 years.

Liberals and conservatives alike criticized the $260 million tax break for a politically connected firm at a time when New Jersey is strapped for tax revenue to pay for its schools, hospitals, property tax rebates and pension obligations.

“This is just another form of crony capitalism, and it needs to end,” state Sen. Michael Doherty (R-Warren), one of the state’s most conservative lawmakers, said. “The more we do of this, the worse the economy gets in the state of New Jersey.”

New Jersey Policy Perspective, a liberal research organization, said the tax break awarded to Holtec was one of the largest ever bestowed in the United States. The state is paying $658,228 for each job — “a sky-high number that has never been seen before in New Jersey and is even far higher than the average per-job cost of the largest ‘megadeals’ across the country,” Jon Whiten, Policy Perspective’s deputy director, said.

Doherty said the real cost was even higher, since 160 of the jobs already existed in the state.

“It looks like New Jersey is paying over $1 million for each new job that’s being created, and this is a disturbing trend,” he said.

Doherty added: “My understanding is that small businesses create 98 percent of the jobs in the state of New Jersey. Let’s provide tax relief for small business — a broad-based program of tax relief — not a bunch of insiders sitting around a table picking the winners and losers, government picking the winners and losers.”

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117 Responses to A million dollars a job subsidy, nothing to see here, move on.

  1. grim says:

    Feel sick to my stomach…

    Daryn Iwicki, state director for the anti-tax group Americans for Prosperity, said subsidies are pointless unless New Jersey first tackles its high income- and property-tax rates.

    “The biggest problem we have here is it’s another politically connected individual getting a tax break,” Iwicki said, referring to Norcross, an influential insurance executive who entered into a partnership with Singh and others to buy the Philadelphia Inquirer in 2012. The Norcross group recently sold its share of the newspaper company.

    Iwicki noted there were only two larger subsidies ever awarded in New Jersey — and that they had not panned out as expected. One of them, a $261 million subsidy spread out over 20 years, went to Revel Casino in Atlantic City, which is facing its second bankruptcy in two years. The other, valued at as much as $350 million, went to the stalled American Dream project in the Meadowlands, formerly known as Xanadu, with its own troubled financial history.

  2. Essex says:

    The argument given against paying a living wage in fast-food restaurants is that workers are paid according to their skills, and if the teenager cleaning the grease trap wants more money, he should get an education. Like most conservative arguments, it makes sense logically, but has little connection to economic reality. Workers are not simply paid according to their skills, they’re paid according to what they can negotiate with their employers. And in an era when only 6 percent of private-sector workers belong to a union, and when going on strike is almost certain to result in losing your job, low-skill workers have no negotiating power whatsoever.
    Granted, Interlake Steel produced a much more useful, much more profitable product than KFC. Steel built the Brooklyn Bridge, the U.S. Navy and the Saturn rocket program. KFC spares people the hassle of frying chicken at home. So let’s look at how wages have declined from middle-class to minimum-wage in a single industry: meat processing.
    Slaughterhouses insist they hire immigrants because the work is so unpleasant Americans won’t do it. They hired European immigrants when Upton Sinclair wrote “The Jungle,” and they hire Latin American immigrants today. But it’s a canard that Americans won’t slaughter pigs, sheep and cows. How do we know this? Because immigration to the United States was more or less banned from 1925 to 1965, and millions of pigs, sheep and cows were slaughtered during those years. But they were slaughtered by American-born workers, earning middle-class wages. Mother Jones magazine explains what changed:
    “[S]tarting in the early 1960s, a company called Iowa Beef Packers (IBP) began to revolutionize the industry, opening plants in rural areas far from union strongholds, recruiting immigrant workers from Mexico, introducing a new division of labor that eliminated the need for skilled butchers, and ruthlessly battling unions. By the late 1970s, meatpacking companies that wanted to compete with IBP had to adopt its business methods — or go out of business. Wages in the meatpacking industry soon fell by as much as 50 percent.”
    In Nick Reding’s book “Methland,” he interviews Roland Jarvis, who earned $18 an hour throwing hocks at Iowa Ham…until 1992, when the slaughterhouse was bought out by a company that broke the union, cut wages to $6.20 an hour, and eliminated all benefits. Jarvis began taking meth so he could work extra shifts, then dealing the drug to make up for his lost income.

  3. Ottoman says:

    “Feel sick to my stomach…”

    Bet ya didn’t bat an eye when Christie handed Prudential $250 million to move down the street even though they said they weren’t moving out of state and zero jobs were projected to be created above Prudentials regular job growth predictions.

  4. Ottoman says:

    The highest paid skill in America is being born into a rich family.

  5. grim says:

    I’ve posted negative comments numerous times regarding near-state competition for jobs, specifically leveraging tax benefits to persuade employers to make short distance moves. I’ve always stated I felt that this kind of competition was counterproductive, and net negative for the broader region, even if jobs were retained.

    This is a prisoner dilemma situation. The ideal situation would be for NY/NJ/PA/CT to enter into a formal agreement that no state would provide subsidies to any company moving or expanding in the region. Now, I have no idea about the legality or enforceablity of such a pact, but the fact is that companies have learned that they can remain in this area and simply play local governments off each other.

    Once you erase the state lines, the movement of some square feet, a cubicle, and an employee from NYC to Jersey City is irrelevant from a local economic perspective, it’s taking money out of one pocket, and putting it right in the other.

  6. nwnj says:

    That’s chance, sh!t for brains. Any other insight you can share?

    Ottoman says:
    July 11, 2014 at 7:29 am

    The highest paid skill in America is being born into a rich family.

  7. grim says:

    Remember, I lean libertarian, and not republican, and a little bit to the left (and I’m not talking politics).

    I don’t think government should be in the business of picking winners, and look forward to a model where these kinds of subsidies were eliminated entirely.

    However, if they are to exist, I would prefer they be directed at small business startups, and not large corporations.

    My issue isn’t about whether or not they can be used in a positive manner, but that they can be misused too easily.

  8. Outofstater says:

    #5 No state offering subsidies… wouldn’t that be a bit like forbidding Comcast and ATT from offering deals to cable subscribers who threaten to leave?

  9. Essex says:

    8. Sure if they used your money for the payoff.

  10. Michael says:

    I don’t know why I hold out hope. I have to think positive, and think it’s still possible to save this train. Thanks for taking the time to help point out what I was missing. Also, your post located below in quotes, is good advice.

    “11. I understand the world is not fair, and I’m OK with that. I do not resent the success of others.
    11a I understand that all do not play fair, will cheat on their taxes (justified of course),
    hide money (justified of course) hire illegals(hey, it’s ok, just doing business), hire/fire based on nepotism(justified of course),brownnose,lie, etc do everything it takes to win (world is not fair, justified).
    11b Teach your kids to be prepared to stab/lie/cheat/steal/be unethical. Remember, the world is not fair. Remember Libturd’s comment of the day (wrong caste, guy is best worker,but never going to be boss). Same thing happens here. Politicians, judges, cops (those who make laws) of course, not all, have been caught cheating, stealing and lying on a daily basis.
    The truth comes out even more with technology. Hard work alone can make you a winner, but rattle the closets of these so called “winners” and you will find that there is no halo over their heads. It’s a facade.
    Rattle the close”

    phoenix says:
    July 10, 2014 at 11:18 pm
    Michael,
    Not that I want to speak for Nom, but I can see both your points and his.
    The way I see it you have not given up, but he looks at things as if the train already left the station and the future is going to be every man for himself and that there is no hope.
    O’man may have good intentions, but you can’t save them all.
    Some are so lazy and entitled they will never change.
    On the top, some are so ruthless/uncaring they would light children on fire to make money.
    The rest are the one’s in the middle toiling away.
    It does not end.
    The upper class is trying to distance itself from a complete breakdown in society which it believes is coming. They are connected and well armed. I am just a middle class worker in a profession ranked near the top in ethics, work with professionals every day which is a blessing in itself, so much to learn from the best and the brightest.

    I try to look at things from a broad perspective-I have to agree with Nom and Clot, the die is cast. Sucks to think that way when you have a small kid. All I can do now is lift her as high as I can and hope she flies.

    The election between O’man and Romney was like having a gun put to your head on the side of a cliff, jump or be shot. Neither one looking out for the middle class working guy, either pandering to the rich and the senior citizens vs pandering to those that don’t even pretend to work.
    As clot would say, Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em.

  11. Michael says:

    I agree, it’s a race to the bottom. This is a terrible policy for the avg citizen.

    grim says:
    July 11, 2014 at 7:51 am
    I’ve posted negative comments numerous times regarding near-state competition for jobs, specifically leveraging tax benefits to persuade employers to make short distance moves. I’ve always stated I felt that this kind of competition was counterproductive, and net negative for the broader region, even if jobs were retained.

    This is a prisoner dilemma situation. The ideal situation would be for NY/NJ/PA/CT to enter into a formal agreement that no state would provide subsidies to any company moving or expanding in the region. Now, I have no idea about the legality or enforceablity of such a pact, but the fact is that companies have learned that they can remain in this area and simply play local governments off each other.

    Once you erase the state lines, the movement of some square feet, a cubicle, and an employee from NYC to Jersey City is irrelevant from a local economic perspective, it’s taking money out of one pocket, and putting it right in the other.

  12. phoenix says:

    7. Grim
    I’m me. I remember that line from Judge Judy.
    You have a time window, then you are done.
    This is how your pols think.
    So you choose a side, like Machiavelli suggests, and stick to it no matter what.
    Try to be the middleman, or help the middle class, and you are pummeled by both sides.
    Just like a middle child is the way the middle class gets treated
    the pols are going to line their pockets/secure their future during their window as fast as they can.
    They are not hero’s. When you finally get one that will step out of the box and attack the problem, you will see a herx like no other.

  13. Michael says:

    Well said, and I agree.

    grim says:
    July 11, 2014 at 8:00 am
    Remember, I lean libertarian, and not republican, and a little bit to the left (and I’m not talking politics).

    I don’t think government should be in the business of picking winners, and look forward to a model where these kinds of subsidies were eliminated entirely.

    However, if they are to exist, I would prefer they be directed at small business startups, and not large corporations.

    My issue isn’t about whether or not they can be used in a positive manner, but that they can be misused too easily.

  14. Michael says:

    Well said. You hit the nail on the head. It really makes me sick.

    Essex says:
    July 11, 2014 at 7:25 am
    The argument given against paying a living wage in fast-food restaurants is that workers are paid according to their skills, and if the teenager cleaning the grease trap wants more money, he should get an education. Like most conservative arguments, it makes sense logically, but has little connection to economic reality. Workers are not simply paid according to their skills, they’re paid according to what they can negotiate with their employers. And in an era when only 6 percent of private-sector workers belong to a union, and when going on strike is almost certain to result in losing your job, low-skill workers have no negotiating power whatsoever.
    Granted, Interlake Steel produced a much more useful, much more profitable product than KFC. Steel built the Brooklyn Bridge, the U.S. Navy and the Saturn rocket program. KFC spares people the hassle of frying chicken at home. So let’s look at how wages have declined from middle-class to minimum-wage in a single industry: meat processing.
    Slaughterhouses insist they hire immigrants because the work is so unpleasant Americans won’t do it. They hired European immigrants when Upton Sinclair wrote “The Jungle,” and they hire Latin American immigrants today. But it’s a canard that Americans won’t slaughter pigs, sheep and cows. How do we know this? Because immigration to the United States was more or less banned from 1925 to 1965, and millions of pigs, sheep and cows were slaughtered during those years. But they were slaughtered by American-born workers, earning middle-class wages. Mother Jones magazine explains what changed:
    “[S]tarting in the early 1960s, a company called Iowa Beef Packers (IBP) began to revolutionize the industry, opening plants in rural areas far from union strongholds, recruiting immigrant workers from Mexico, introducing a new division of labor that eliminated the need for skilled butchers, and ruthlessly battling unions. By the late 1970s, meatpacking companies that wanted to compete with IBP had to adopt its business methods — or go out of business. Wages in the meatpacking industry soon fell by as much as 50 percent.”
    In Nick Reding’s book “Methland,” he interviews Roland Jarvis, who earned $18 an hour throwing hocks at Iowa Ham…until 1992, when the slaughterhouse was bought out by a company that broke the union, cut wages to $6.20 an hour, and eliminated all benefits. Jarvis began taking meth so he could work extra shifts, then dealing the drug to make up for his lost income.

  15. Michael says:

    That’s me. Trying to help the middle class ( the worker) and I get pummeled by both sides.

    phoenix says:
    July 11, 2014 at 8:40 am
    7. Grim
    I’m me. I remember that line from Judge Judy.
    You have a time window, then you are done.
    This is how your pols think.
    So you choose a side, like Machiavelli suggests, and stick to it no matter what.
    Try to be the middleman, or help the middle class, and you are pummeled by both sides.
    Just like a middle child is the way the middle class gets treated
    the pols are going to line their pockets/secure their future during their window as fast as they can.
    They are not hero’s. When you finally get one that will step out of the box and attack the problem, you will see a herx like no other.

  16. phoenix says:

    When the middle class decides it’s better to be poor and not work, the game will be over.
    Sad when you can afford to have more children when you are broke vs working.
    One hell of an incentive to work/breed.
    The ones with an excellent work ethic are the ones no longer having children anymore.
    http://interculturalmeanderings.wordpress.com/2011/11/18/will-only-the-rich-and-the-poor-have-children-in-the-future/

  17. Outofstater says:

    #9 Good point. I was thinking of the states as corporate entities with the taxpayers as the shareholders.

  18. painhrtz - whatever says:

    Let me get this straight, so the meat packing industry moved to lower wage areas closer to the producers of their product ie cows, chickens and pigs to screw over union workers. not to save in labor and transportation costs while providing a product at the price the public demands. OK short stack if Joe methhead was making 35 bucks an hour to hang pig hocks would you be willing to pay 20 bucks a pound for bacon? No offense to butchers who produce meat products (brats sausages, etc) not just cut up animals but I can butcher a pig and deer in two hours I have no formal training it is not hard.

    Sometimes I think you folks are brain damaged because you can not understand basic economics.

  19. chicagofinance says:

    Breakin’ 2 – Electric Jugaloo

  20. 1987 Condo says:

    In 80’s-90’s I wondered why I worked so hard in school, got 2 degrees, certifications, passed tests, held A average, was working, never took a sick day etc, and yet I was earning less than UAW workings in low cost mid-America who probably just had a HS diploma and probably were not stellar students, etc….so should I be surprised that some of those jobs are actually paying less than those that have required significant educational and career search efforts..?

    Also, while we can pick sides, we are in a global economy and I have decided to deal with the reality, as much as it may be “unfair” , and figure out how I can stay employable…..that is all…

  21. Michael says:

    Where in your economical model do you expect the economy to grow when you are raising product prices but not increasing wages. Eventually the economy will come to a crawl. How do you expect people to continue purchasing products, please explain. There has to be some sort of balance.

    painhrtz – whatever says:
    July 11, 2014 at 8:59 am
    Let me get this straight, so the meat packing industry moved to lower wage areas closer to the producers of their product ie cows, chickens and pigs to screw over union workers. not to save in labor and transportation costs while providing a product at the price the public demands. OK short stack if Joe methhead was making 35 bucks an hour to hang pig hocks would you be willing to pay 20 bucks a pound for bacon? No offense to butchers who produce meat products (brats sausages, etc) not just cut up animals but I can butcher a pig and deer in two hours I have no formal training it is not hard.

    Sometimes I think you folks are brain damaged because you can not understand basic economics.

  22. phoenix says:

    18.
    Chinese have bought the pork plant anyway, maybe even lower prices?
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/09/26/china-pigs-smithfield-buyout/2870505/

  23. grim says:

    Why are US firms limited to only minority ownership of Chinese firms, where we allow China firms to wholly own US companies?

  24. grim says:

    Just like India requires foreign retailers operating on shore to source 30% of inventory from small in country suppliers.

    However we don’t require Indian companies like Tata from sourcing any percentage US labor when operating in the US (one of the largest users of H1-B and offshore work).

  25. grim says:

    Why is it OK for other countries to have immigration policies like this? But not the US?

    Replaced country name with America

    Only Americans by birth can perform all government employments, positions, or commissions in which the status of citizenship is indispensable. During peacetime, foreigners shall neither serve in the Army nor in the police bodies. During peacetime, only Americans by birth can serve in the Army, in the Navy or in the Air Force as well can perform any employment or commission within such corporations.

    The same condition applies to captains, pilots, skippers, ship engineers, flight engineers and, in general, to every crew member in a ship or an airplane carrying the American flag. In the same way, only Americans by birth can be port harbormasters, steersmen and airport superintendents.

    Americans shall have priority over foreigners, under equal circumstances, for all kind of concessions, employments, positions or commissions of the government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable.

    (this is Mexican immigration law, by the way)

  26. painhrtz - whatever says:

    Michael if you look at increases in food prices they are typically adjusted for fuel costs which impact transportation and feed which require fuel not labor costs.

    There is a reason bacon as an example has remained at a relatively stable price point pegged to fuel costs. To provide to consumers a product at a price they can tolerate the meat packing industry moved away from skilled butchers who were overpaid to do a job that required less skilled workers. No one is paying 20 bucks a pound for bacon no matter what you may think economically it does not make sense.
    If you ran a company and need one high level engineer to manage 20 lower level programmers you are not going to high 21 high level engineers to fill that job. To go back to meat packing while I’m sure that there are some people who are paid at the low end of the scale you progressives seem to think that companies don’t reward people for hard work and loyalty.

    The world does not operate in a vacuum and is not a simple system. I know anything that is not linear and does not fit your world view is difficult to understand but give it a shot you might learn something.

  27. anon (the good one) says:

    I, for one, have hope for the future of America.

    Rapacious fat cats are attempting to destroy us all, but we won’t allow it.

    Michael says:
    July 11, 2014 at 8:38 am
    I don’t know why I hold out hope. I have to think positive, and think it’s still possible to save this train. Thanks for taking the time to help point out what I was missing. Also, your post located below in quotes, is good advice.

    “11. I understand the world is not fair, and I’m OK with that. I do not resent the success of others.
    11a I understand that all do not play fair, will cheat on their taxes (justified of course),
    hide money (justified of course) hire illegals(hey, it’s ok, just doing business), hire/fire based on nepotism(justified of course),brownnose,lie, etc do everything it takes to win (world is not fair, justified).
    11b Teach your kids to be prepared to stab/lie/cheat/steal/be unethical. Remember, the world is not fair. Remember Libturd’s comment of the day (wrong caste, guy is best worker,but never going to be boss). Same thing happens here. Politicians, judges, cops (those who make laws) of course, not all, have been caught cheating, stealing and lying on a daily basis.
    The truth comes out even more with technology. Hard work alone can make you a winner, but rattle the closets of these so called “winners” and you will find that there is no halo over their heads. It’s a facade.
    Rattle the close”

    phoenix says:
    July 10, 2014 at 11:18 pm
    Michael,
    Not that I want to speak for Nom, but I can see both your points and his.
    The way I see it you have not given up, but he looks at things as if the train already left the station and the future is going to be every man for himself and that there is no hope.
    O’man may have good intentions, but you can’t save them all.
    Some are so lazy and entitled they will never change.
    On the top, some are so ruthless/uncaring they would light children on fire to make money.
    The rest are the one’s in the middle toiling away.
    It does not end.
    The upper class is trying to distance itself from a complete breakdown in society which it believes is coming. They are connected and well armed. I am just a middle class worker in a profession ranked near the top in ethics, work with professionals every day which is a blessing in itself, so much to learn from the best and the brightest.

    I try to look at things from a broad perspective-I have to agree with Nom and Clot, the die is cast. Sucks to think that way when you have a small kid. All I can do now is lift her as high as I can and hope she flies.

    The election between O’man and Romney was like having a gun put to your head on the side of a cliff, jump or be shot. Neither one looking out for the middle class working guy, either pandering to the rich and the senior citizens vs pandering to those that don’t even pretend to work.
    As clot would say, Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em.

  28. grim says:

    26 – you should have just told him that people would eat chicken instead

  29. phoenix says:

    24, Grim,
    Maybe ask Libturd, he seems to know much about these types of things.
    When all of the water companies, farms, etc are owned/controlled by foreigners, maybe Nom will allow some of us to enter his Nompound and have a drink or something to eat.
    No other country would allow a foreign company to control its water and food / electrical supplies.
    I don’t see the logic in allowing this to continue.
    Then again, I am not a politician or oligarch.

  30. Juice Box says:

    re # 23 – Grim most countries are at least equally or more protective of their “core assets”. The restrictions on capital transfer and investments from foreigners is quite a maze. Just try and buy stock in an Indonesian company. You would need to open account in local bank and broker to trade, with restrictions on the amount of capital you can use. This is to prevent the flow of massive amounts foreign dollars which could then create bubbles as well as protectionism.

    Besides since when does Pork have National Security interests?

  31. anon (the good one) says:

    that’s false. Joe meathead was in fact making a living wage under union protection.
    the union was broken not to lower the price of bacon, but to increase the profits under Mitt Romney’ private equity model.
    minimum wage won’t increase the price of bacon, but will lower the profits of the rapacious fat cats

    painhrtz – whatever says:
    July 11, 2014 at 8:59 am

    if Joe meathead was making 35 bucks an hour to hang pig hocks would you be willing to pay 20 bucks a pound for bacon?

  32. Fast Eddie says:

    A declining unemployment rate—now at 6.1 percent—would seem to mean that employers are packing their payrolls with workers. But many businesses say they are having a harder time filling open positions this year than last year, according to a new survey.

    When asked for the primary reason jobs remained unfilled, 52 percent of respondents cited a lack of available candidates.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/101823572?__source=yahoo%7Cfinance%7Cheadline%7Cheadline%7Cstory&par=yahoo&doc=101823572

  33. grim says:

    From my own discussions with folks at other firms, hiring isn’t the issue right now, it’s keeping employees as the economy improves.

    Call bullshit all you want, but I’m looking at the data right now, and it’s showing marked increases in employees leaving for other jobs. These are lower wage jobs, but not at all minimum wage. FT and benefits.

    In addition, quality of candidates applying are falling as well, which is pushing hiring rates down.

    We’re starting to see wage pressures at the lower end of the scale, it’s pretty clear.

    Wage rates in a number of off-shore geographies continue to rise as well, which reduces the benefit of offshore labor. Competition for labor in a number of these other geographies is becoming brutal. I know of one situation where a company put up a billboard directly in front of their competitors location, and providing cash bonuses to new employees that convince their colleagues from competing firms to quit and move over.

  34. Fast Eddie says:

    grim,

    In addition, quality of candidates applying are falling as well, which is pushing hiring rates down.

    Why is this? Why the lack of quality candidates?

  35. Juice Box says:

    Interesting company Holtec, they seem to have made a mint mostly dealing with garbage that even a hardened garbageman would run away from. Onsite “short term” nuke material storage AKA dry casks, which is only a kick the can solution especially since Yucca mountain was closed by Obama as a favor to Reid.

    These casks are stored locally at all nuke plants usually above ground and outside. They store bundles of partially used nuke fuel rods that are still hot and were once inside the reactor. When I say partially used I mean it. The stuff is not recycled when it could be.

    Some legacy we are leaving our children to deal with, any kind of future destabilizing event in any country could mean a big big problem, if all they need to do is cut a few chain link fences to cart the stuff off.

  36. Essex says:

    34. I blame Obama.

  37. Fast Eddie says:

    Essex [36],

    Well, he certainly has fostered an attitude and environment ripe with complacency and dependency. No argument there.

  38. nwnj says:

    #37

    One thing we can certainly thank him for is the constant stream of refuse that he invited over the border — and is hoping(with Ottoman) to consolidate as a loyal voter block down the line.

  39. Libturd in the City says:

    “re # 23 – Grim most countries are at least equally or more protective of their “core assets”. The restrictions on capital transfer and investments from foreigners is quite a maze. Just try and buy stock in an Indonesian company. You would need to open account in local bank and broker to trade, with restrictions on the amount of capital you can use. This is to prevent the flow of massive amounts foreign dollars which could then create bubbles as well as protectionism.”

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but do other countries have so much of their debt owned by outsiders? I am not offering an opinion on the matter, but if we limited the ability of non-American entities to purchase American companies (and resources), would they be as willing to buy our debt?

    You know, all the time the ultraliberals like to point out how excessively large our military spending is. But if we didn’t maintain the facade as policemen to the world, would foreigners continue to buy our debt? The ultraliberals always conveniently leave this small issue out of their argument.

    Really, the mistake that I see made so often here (besides the idiots thinking there is actually a difference between the two parties) is that so many people have faith in our government. Perhaps it from our elementary school indoctrination? Once you realize that the government is not out to help anyone besides those in the government, you will experience an epiphany. The recent handout to Holtec was most certainly a thank you for the campaign contribution made to Norcross. And even more sadly, if you actually follow the money, in most cases, a 5 figure contribution will often buy you a 7 digit return on your investment. So one must ask…did this tax break really have anything to do whatsoever with saving jobs? Was Obamacare anything more than the maintenance of the democratic voting base at the expense of the middle class.

    The moment the ACA got rolling, I began purchasing shares of United Healthcare. Meanwhile, ValueLine and Barron’s said that the private insurers would get hosed. Why? Beacause their writers are as ignorant as the majority of the government worshipers here. Private insurers are who the ACA was created to benefit. It was sold to the dumb liberals as a way to lower costs for all, when in actuality, it was more voting base maintenance and a thank you to the middleman (the insurance industry). By the way, UNH is up 33% annualized so far this year. So much for lowering the cost of healthcare.

    And that article from the post on how the ACA is helping the red states more than the blue states was typical liberal trash. The study left out one huge detail. The fact that the blue states are much more densely populated than the red states and that more people in the blue states (voters we should call them) benefited though as a percentage of the overall population, less signed up. Math is very easy to twist. The Times and the WP do it just as well as Fox News and the New York Post. Sadly, the ultraliberal sheep think their sh1t don’t stink.

    1987 Condo really imparts some excellent advice. “Also, while we can pick sides, we are in a global economy and I have decided to deal with the reality, as much as it may be “unfair” , and figure out how I can stay employable…..that is all…”

    This is really how I see it as well. If our government represented us, I might share the Passion Fruit’s passion. Sadly, I’ve been around too long to see how it really works.

    Baa!

  40. Essex says:

    I agree that while Obama is a polarizing figure, he has little to do with your employment prospects. That die was cast long ago.

  41. phoenix says:

    Lib,
    Where did all of this “debt” you talk about come from? Did millennials create it? Is it from our “excessive military spending?.
    So what do you suggest we do to pay down the debt? No one wants to pay taxes, they cry too much.
    Are you suggesting we sell the future to pay for the past? Sounds like “grandfathered” type talk.

    No one ever held accountable for any of it. Ever.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but do other countries have so much of their debt owned by outsiders? I am not offering an opinion on the matter, but if we limited the ability of non-American entities to purchase American companies (and resources), would they be as willing to buy our debt?

    You know, all the time the ultraliberals like to point out how excessively large our military spending is. But if we didn’t maintain the facade as policemen to the world, would foreigners continue to buy our debt?

  42. Bystander says:

    #28,

    TJs actually makes a damn fine veggie sausage patty. It is crispy and flavorful. I hardly miss bacon with my eggs. Anyone put worchestshire sauce on eggs? My dad always used it. Is that NJ thing? People think it is strange.

  43. Libturd in the City says:

    Phoenix,

    All developed countries have huge debts. In the race to the bottom, our military might be what just saves us. By the way, one can reduce the debt by reducing the size of government. Though this is about as likely as Congress not voting themselves raises.

    So what position would you rather be in when the world banks collapse? In debt to your own citizens or in debt to foreign bond/treasury holders? In the first case, a revolution is much more likely. In the second case, perhaps a war. It will be nice when China calls in their debt and we can threaten to drop a bunker buster on Guangdong as they threaten us with roman candles and fireworks.

  44. Libturd in the City says:

    Bystander,

    I think the TJ sausage may be made by Morningstar Farms/Kelloggs, but I agree that it is tasty. Their vege meatballs are decent meat alternatives too. Though after that, outside of the Japanese made vege ham, the other vege substitutes really pale in comparison to the real deal.

  45. grim says:

    On a debt per capita or debt per gdp basis, there are many countries much worse off. Looking at the aggregate number is exciting, but misleading since it doesn’t correct for population or economy.

  46. grim says:

    Kind of like saying the billionaire with a $50,000 balance on his Centurion card is in worse shape than someone working minimum wage that owes $2,000.

  47. grim says:

    Besides, when the shit hits the fan, we just default on all the debt. Global financionuclear holocaust.

    What are the other countries going to do, attack us?

  48. grim says:

    I now see Stu already said it much more eloquently than I.

  49. Essex says:

    The new frontier among top restaurants is “field-to-table,” an extreme version of farm-to-table dining that was pioneered in Scandinavia and elevates ingredients found in the wild.

    Some of the most highly rated restaurants in New York — Gramercy Tavern, The French Laundry, and Momofuku Ssäm Bar among them — have hired professional foragers to supply them with the freshest ingredients Mother Nature has to offer. This brings creativity, authenticity, and quality to the menu like never before.

    Field-to-table is no gimmick, says Brandon Kida, head chef at The Peninsula New York hotel’s Clement. He swears that once you eat foraged fare, you’ll never go back. It’s the future of high-end dining.

  50. Juice Box says:

    Unfunded liabilities will do us in not the debt.

  51. Michael says:

    I think what you are missing is that if you paid your workers more they would be able to afford 20 dollar bacon. Right now, what’s happening is the complete opposite. They are raising prices without increasing salaries at the same rate they are raising prices. After 2008, you started having companies laying off people and not replacing them to increase profit. They did that till they could not do it anymore, where we are now. All this time the prices have been rising for everything, but people have not been able to keep up due to lack of wage increases, and having no job. Profits have continued to rise every year since 2010. How long can this keep up? Please tell me. Wage increases are not always a negative if they maintain a balance with rising prices. That my friend, has not been happening, and it’s not a good thing at all. Wages have not kept up at all.

    painhrtz – whatever says:
    July 11, 2014 at 9:49 am
    Michael if you look at increases in food prices they are typically adjusted for fuel costs which impact transportation and feed which require fuel not labor costs.

    There is a reason bacon as an example has remained at a relatively stable price point pegged to fuel costs. To provide to consumers a product at a price they can tolerate the meat packing industry moved away from skilled butchers who were overpaid to do a job that required less skilled workers. No one is paying 20 bucks a pound for bacon no matter what you may think economically it does not make sense.
    If you ran a company and need one high level engineer to manage 20 lower level programmers you are not going to high 21 high level engineers to fill that job. To go back to meat packing while I’m sure that there are some people who are paid at the low end of the scale you progressives seem to think that companies don’t reward people for hard work and loyalty.

    The world does not operate in a vacuum and is not a simple system. I know anything that is not linear and does not fit your world view is difficult to understand but give it a shot you might learn something.

  52. Michael says:

    40- Lib, I honestly agree with everything you have said in this post. Well said. I might have more faith in the govt than you, but don’t think that I’m so govt supporter. My belief. Types of govt are not bad. None of them. Problem is, who is running them? If you have a kind leader who has a strong sense of empathy, that govt will be good for the people. You have a leader who is a greedy snake with no empathy whatsoever, and you have a govt that is terrible for the people. Unfortunately, almost every govt falls apart because they are run by snakes. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

  53. Michael says:

    I agree with you guys. We must have a strong military, or the debt actually matters.

    grim says:
    July 11, 2014 at 12:15 pm
    Besides, when the shit hits the fan, we just default on all the debt. Global financionuclear holocaust.

    What are the other countries going to do, attack us?

    grim says:
    July 11, 2014 at 12:16 pm
    I now see Stu already said it much more eloquently than I.

  54. daddyo says:

    Inflation is the easiest solution to all your debt problems….including unfunded liabilities.

  55. Libturd in the City says:

    Passion Fruit…

    Are you familiar with Supply and Demand? This is what drives prices. When the rich guy stops making money because he raised the price of his product so much so he can buy his 16th Lamborghini, he will lower the price to where the equilibrium between supply and demand yields him the most profit.

    You can’t have the government go in and demand that he lower the prices because this will stifle job growth if his profit margin declines. Heck, he might even stop selling the product here. He can move his business to another country where the government doesn’t meddle with his pricing. Plus, he most likely pays the government to keep them from interfering anyway. The government doesn’t really care if the way he runs his business is not good for the greatersociety. The government only cares that they are getting their cut. Want subsidies? Buy them.

    Baa!

  56. Libturd in the City says:

    “Inflation is the easiest solution to all your debt problems….including unfunded liabilities.”

    But there isn’t a debt problem if everyone has similar amounts of debt. Kind of like guns. :P

  57. Michael says:

    I discussed this in the past on this blog. It’s why inflation is a policy of the fed. If they had deflation, our govt would collapse under the debt.

    daddyo says:
    July 11, 2014 at 12:52 pm
    Inflation is the easiest solution to all your debt problems….including unfunded liabilities.

  58. painhrtz - whatever says:

    Lib please tell me I’m crazy for even thinking to respond but

    Michael no one is paying 20 bucks a pound for bacon. The market pricing isn’t pie in the sky guessing so robber barons can get more mustache twirling wax. You think the guy selling bacon doesn’t want to charge you 10 dollars a pound? He does but he can’t because the market won’t allow for it as there is a sh!tload of pigs and even more bacon from his competition. So he reduces costs to turn a profit unskilled labor for unskilled jobs, closer to pig producers, etc. Now based on inflation, consumer expectations, competition and production costs our pig robber baron is fighting a losing battle just to maintain a viable business. Unfortunately, in your world it is unfair for him to expect a profit from his investment in monies and resources, he is unfair to his workers because he pays them a wage the market and his employees will accept, and a criminal for fleeing from inflated union wages.

    What about any of this seems logical to you or consistent with how economies operate in a free market? What your describing is a control economy which in the end leads to production shortages, stagnation, higher prices due to said shortages and your eventual 20 dollar a pound bacon. See Soviet Union and Venezuela for toilet paper lines for an example.

  59. Theo says:

    The only point at which the debt would become a problem would be if foreign creditors starting demanding loans to the US denominated in Euros, Yuan, Yen or the Pound, etc. Then you have your 1980’s Argentina situation. Short of that, there is not much to worry about. If China stops lending, interest rates go up to where they should be. Big whoop.

  60. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [5] grim – on paper that makes perfect sense, but since we’re dealing with corrupt pols and taxing authorities I’m afraid that any agreement to not dangle carrots would just turn that quartet of states into another California sans the good weather and scenery.

    This is a prisoner dilemma situation. The ideal situation would be for NY/NJ/PA/CT to enter into a formal agreement that no state would provide subsidies to any company moving or expanding in the region.

  61. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    ^^^^^ Here’s some people who want to go the exact opposite direction in California:

    http://www.sixcalifornias.info/

  62. Essex says:

    To go back to meat packing while I’m sure that there are some people who are paid at the low end of the scale you progressives seem to think that companies don’t reward people for hard work and loyalty.

    ? You lost me there Pain

  63. Michael says:

    I definitely understand supply and demand. How do you account for rises in prices when wages are stagnant? People just taking on more debt?

    Libturd in the City says:
    July 11, 2014 at 12:54 pm
    Passion Fruit…

    Are you familiar with Supply and Demand? This is what drives prices. When the rich guy stops making money because he raised the price of his product so much so he can buy his 16th Lamborghini, he will lower the price to where the equilibrium between supply and demand yields him the most profit.

    You can’t have the government go in and demand that he lower the prices because this will stifle job growth if his profit margin declines. Heck, he might even stop selling the product here. He can move his business to another country where the government doesn’t meddle with his pricing. Plus, he most likely pays the government to keep them from interfering anyway. The government doesn’t really care if the way he runs his business is not good for the greatersociety. The government only cares that they are getting their cut. Want subsidies? Buy them.

    Baa!

  64. painhrtz - whatever says:

    SX essentially the logical fallacy that everyone on a shop floor makes the federally mandated minimum.

  65. The Original NJ ExPat says:
  66. Libturd in the City says:

    “How do you account for rises in prices when wages are stagnant? People just taking on more debt? ”

    Probably. Or perhaps they are spending less on crap they don’t need so they can afford more of what they do need. Some people are even doing better than they used to be. The ‘crumbs’ are a mighty powerful motivational tool for those not ultra-wealthy.

    So how many people here are really doing worse than they were five or ten years ago. Gator and I certainly aren’t. None of my friends are either. Sure in 2009-2011, a few who took on too much credit ran into some financial problems, but no one forced them to borrow to live above their means. None of them are driving 19 year old Civics either.

    So, how many people here are worse off? Can I get a show of hands?

  67. Libturd in the City says:

    I though Cleveland hated him for leaving in the first place. Sports fans have no memory. Just wait until Riley Cooper inherits the role of Desean Jackson in Philly.

  68. joyce says:

    Ahh yes, the magic wand of inflation will cure everything.

    Surprising how we’re in such as predicament now considering all the inflation we’ve had in the past 10, 20, 100 years.

  69. Fast Eddie says:

    Just wait until Riley Cooper inherits the role of Desean Jackson in Philly.

    Amen to that one! :)

  70. Fast Eddie says:

    So how many people here are really doing worse than they were five or ten years ago.

    Ask that question to every house buyer from 2004 through 2008 in the NJ/NY area.

  71. Fast Eddie says:

    Libturd,

    The people that are doing better are the ones that acted fiscally responsible and didn’t jump off the bridge because everyone else was doing it.

  72. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [67]Lib – We’re doing better, but since my wife I were both born before 1964 it might be because we are evil locust boomers.

    So how many people here are really doing worse than they were five or ten years ago. Gator and I certainly aren’t. None of my friends are either. Sure in 2009-2011, a few who took on too much credit ran into some financial problems, but no one forced them to borrow to live above their means. None of them are driving 19 year old Civics either.

  73. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [68] Lib – like Seinfeld said, people just cheer for laundry. If the Red Sox and Yankees traded their entire rosters to each other today Nom would be wearing a Jeter shirt tomorrow.

    I though Cleveland hated him for leaving in the first place. Sports fans have no memory. Just wait until Riley Cooper inherits the role of Desean Jackson in Philly.

  74. joyce says:

    At approximately 7:00 a.m. on Wednesday, July 9th, the home of Camille Perry and Larry Lee Arman was breached with a battering ram, and strange men charged in with rifles and opened fire on their pets.

    Officers proceeded to tear the house apart for hours. Besides the two dead dogs, the extensive damages included multiple broken doors, broken door frames, and walls with the insulation and vents ripped out. All damages were left to the homeowner to cover.

    http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/25981713/st-paul-police-shoot-kill-2-family-dogs-in-swat-raid

  75. 1987 Condo says:

    My net worth has doubled since 2004, but I am on my 4th employer and 16th manager in those 10 years…..

  76. joyce says:

    [don’t know why the first paragraph didn’t get posted]
    A SWAT team left a family traumatized and mourning the loss of two beloved family pets that were abruptly gunned down in their living room during a surprise morning raid. In the wake of their devastation, police walked away with enough evidence to issue a $200 ticket.

  77. 1987 Condo says:

    #76….I was recruited to each of those employer, fwiw

  78. joyce says:

    Condo,
    Would you say most of your network increasing is due to the stock market or am I off base?

  79. Michael says:

    I didn’t come up with 20 dollar a pound figure you did. All I stated was that if you paid them enough, they will be able afford it.

    “Now based on inflation, consumer expectations, competition and production costs our pig robber baron is fighting a losing battle just to maintain a viable business. Unfortunately, in your world it is unfair for him to expect a profit from his investment in monies and resources, he is unfair to his workers because he pays them a wage the market and his employees will accept, and a criminal for fleeing from inflated union wages.”

    Ok, based on this statement, how do you explain the dramatic increase in billionaires and century millionaires ? Where are they getting all this money from. Do you know how much you must accrue on a daily basis to make it to a billion dollars in 10 to 40 years? So if it’s so hard for them to profit, how do explain these huge increases in billionaires and people worth more than a 100 million? Your statement doesn’t add up.

    painhrtz – whatever says:
    July 11, 2014 at 1:09 pm
    Lib please tell me I’m crazy for even thinking to respond but

    Michael no one is paying 20 bucks a pound for bacon. The market pricing isn’t pie in the sky guessing so robber barons can get more mustache twirling wax. You think the guy selling bacon doesn’t want to charge you 10 dollars a pound? He does but he can’t because the market won’t allow for it as there is a sh!tload of pigs and even more bacon from his competition. So he reduces costs to turn a profit unskilled labor for unskilled jobs, closer to pig producers, etc. Now based on inflation, consumer expectations, competition and production costs our pig robber baron is fighting a losing battle just to maintain a viable business. Unfortunately, in your world it is unfair for him to expect a profit from his investment in monies and resources, he is unfair to his workers because he pays them a wage the market and his employees will accept, and a criminal for fleeing from inflated union wages.

    What about any of this seems logical to you or consistent with how economies operate in a free market? What your describing is a control economy which in the end leads to production shortages, stagnation, higher prices due to said shortages and your eventual 20 dollar a pound bacon. See Soviet Union and Venezuela for toilet paper lines for an example.

  80. Michael says:

    “Now based on inflation, consumer expectations, competition and production costs our pig robber baron is fighting a losing battle just to maintain a viable business. Unfortunately, in your world it is unfair for him to expect a profit from his investment in monies and resources, he is unfair to his workers because he pays them a wage the market and his employees will accept, and a criminal for fleeing from inflated union wages.”

    Ok, based on this statement, how do you explain the dramatic increase in billionaires and century millionaires ? Where are they getting all this money from. Do you know how much you must accrue on a daily basis to make it to a billion dollars in 10 to 40 years? So if it’s so hard for them to profit, how do explain these huge increases in billionaires and people worth more than a 100 million? Your statement doesn’t add up.

    Sorry for the repost, but it looked a little confusing the way it was presented in the other post.

  81. painhrtz - whatever says:

    Lib I’m doing worse in that we only have one salary supporting a mortgage. Sure we only bought a house that we could afford to live comfortably with one salary, but man I sure miss being able to just jet away on vacation, buy new guns and the fact that the house would have been paid off next year if she kept working. then again the kids seem happy mom is home so no worries there.

    Next year when things start vesting in earnest I should really start paying the vig down. So I guess about the same?

  82. painhrtz - whatever says:

    Inflation and the devaluation of monetary value but your getting off the reservation. We were strictly speaking supply and demand.

    To get off topic to your point though how many of those billionaires are from resources which are priced at historical highs or from new technologies? Today’s billionaires where the nineteenth centuries millionaires.

  83. Michael says:

    Lib, but that’s the thing, we are out of touch. Most of us on this board fall under the top 10% income bracket. We are not the ones suffering. Go into a small town in Kansas and ask them if they are doing better than 10 years ago, chances are not. You live in Glen ridge, so you won’t see the suffering. Go into the inner cities where the crime rate has gone up along with the murder rates. That’s where you will see the suffering in nj. Forget what fast Eddie says about people hurting in haughty towns, nj suburbs are stupid rich.

    Libturd in the City says:
    July 11, 2014 at 1:55 pm
    “How do you account for rises in prices when wages are stagnant? People just taking on more debt? ”

    Probably. Or perhaps they are spending less on crap they don’t need so they can afford more of what they do need. Some people are even doing better than they used to be. The ‘crumbs’ are a mighty powerful motivational tool for those not ultra-wealthy.

    So how many people here are really doing worse than they were five or ten years ago. Gator and I certainly aren’t. None of my friends are either. Sure in 2009-2011, a few who took on too much credit ran into some financial problems, but no one forced them to borrow to live above their means. None of them are driving 19 year old Civics either.

    So, how many people here are worse off? Can I get a show of hands?

  84. Ron Jermany says:

    New Jersey to Hire Up to Three Alt. Investment Professionals

    Jul 08, 2014

    Jing Chen

    The New Jersey Division of Investment plans to hire up to three senior investment professionals to join its alternative investments team.

    Reuters reported that that the new hires would be responsible for helping manage the pension fund’s private equity, real estate, real assets and hedge fund portfolios. Specific tasks include sourcing investments, performing manager due diligence, negotiating partnership agreements, managing relationships with outside consultants and presenting recommendations to the New Jersey State Investment Council.

    The pension fund may hire money managers to run additional separate accounts after it finish hiring the new investment staff.

    The pension fund manages approximately $79 billion for New Jersey’s employees.

  85. Michael says:

    Don’t take offense and get mad, but you danced around my question. Yes, strictly speaking supply and demand, based on your statement in the above post, how do you explain for the rapid accumulation of century millionaires and billionaires, if the robber Barron’s can barely profit?

    painhrtz – whatever says:
    July 11, 2014 at 2:55 pm
    Inflation and the devaluation of monetary value but your getting off the reservation. We were strictly speaking supply and demand.

    To get off topic to your point though how many of those billionaires are from resources which are priced at historical highs or from new technologies? Today’s billionaires where the nineteenth centuries millionaires.

  86. Libturd in the City says:

    Passion Fruit,

    The main reason the rich get richer isn’t by paying the lower classes less. They get richer due to tax laws that are written in their favor. Purposely. Is the 15% tax on dividends fair? Or the farm tax in NJ?

    Are the rich greedy? Hell yes. Why? For the same reason you don’t pay any more in taxes than Uncle Sam requests you do.

    As for the inner city argument, I know plenty of people who have taken advantage of the many programs offered which helps balance the playing field. I can tell you about countless inner city kids who were my fellow resident assistants in college who were all the first members of their families to obtain a college degree. I don’t disagree that in the current climate of money printing and corporate bailouts it’s harder than it’s probably been since the 30’s to obtain upward mobility, but it’s still far from impossible and your hyperbole around the fact that you say you are better off not working hard “for the man,” is a load of bull.

    In all of my experiences, the hardest workers have always experienced the greatest gains. You might not know this, as perhaps you’ve been lucky enough to get buy without much effort.

    I’m guessing, based on the revelation of the donation from grandma, that you never worked a hard day in your life.

  87. Essex says:

    71. Notice how the yearly appreciation of home in places like New York and Seattle is in the 8% range. Here in NJ we are looking at 1% if we are lucky. In some markets, places where people actually ‘want’ to be, as opposed to ‘end-up’ or have to be….pl’ NJ is a laggard.

  88. Libturd in the City says:

    And I didn’t grow up in Glen Ridge. I paid my own way through college without taking out a single loan. This can probably still be done today, if you’re smart.

  89. Juggalo4eva says:

    Nice to see fascism still strong in Amerika.

  90. Juggalo4eva says:

    Everyone knows how you put an end to fascism, right?

    If not, take a look at how Italy put and end to Mussolini.

  91. Libturd in the City says:

    Essex. NJ is a wasteland of government excess. Just wait until the pension system collapses and the fake job workers demand to get paid in full. Think 1% is a small number? Wait until it turns negative.

    It was a hell of a week to commute by train too. Only the best and the brightest could figure out how not to keep the trains running with NJ Transits huge ridership.

  92. Libturd in the City says:

    Juggalo Brown Sugar.

  93. Fast Eddie says:

    Forget what fast Eddie says about people hurting in haughty towns, nj suburbs are stupid rich.

    Really? Based on what?

  94. Juice Box says:

    Michael is the Drake of Wayne NJ.

    StarteAnnotated from the bottom, now we’re here…….

  95. Michael says:

    Didn’t mean it in a negative way. Sorry, if it came off that way.

    Libturd in the City says:
    July 11, 2014 at 3:20 pm
    And I didn’t grow up in Glen Ridge. I paid my own way through college without taking out a single loan. This can probably still be done today, if you’re smart.

  96. Juice Box says:

    Started from the bottom, now we’re here…

  97. JJ says:

    In NJ or NY top 10% could be living in near poverty. You really have to be in top 5% to survive.

    Biggest gap in wages is top 1% the barely scrapping into top 1% is not rich at all yet he is lumped with Justin Bieber and Jay Z.

    Michael says:
    July 11, 2014 at 2:56 pm

    Lib, but that’s the thing, we are out of touch. Most of us on this board fall under the top 10% income bracket. We are not the ones suffering. Go into a small town in Kansas and ask them if they are doing better than 10 years ago, chances are not. You live in Glen ridge, so you won’t see the suffering. Go into the inner cities where the crime rate has gone up along with the murder rates. That’s where you will see the suffering in nj. Forget what fast Eddie says about people hurting in haughty towns, nj suburbs are stupid rich.

  98. Juggalo4eva says:

    Martin Armstrong, with a cheerful message for the weekend:

    “To make this perfectly clear, extreme views on the left or the right end up meeting in the same back parking lot where they agree the people are the great unwashed and are too stupid to see they need to be manipulated and controlled. In Europe, so-called democratically elected representatives lie their ass off to get elected and then do their best to deny the people the right to vote on the very issues if the EU Commission is wrong will tear the continent apart in war. This idea that a single government would prevent war is childish and stupid. If that were true, there would never be a revolution where provinces, states, territories, or possession seek independence. The very idea of new world order is without any foundation in history…one giant fraud.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-11/martin-armstrong-understanding-extremes-both-sides

  99. 1987 Condo says:

    #79…I am 75% “fixed”, 25% equities, mainly from aggressive savings and I am fairly frugal. I transitioned into client facing roles (sales) which provided commissions which I have just been banking

  100. painhrtz - whatever says:

    Mikey in every business some are more successful than others. Some are greedier than others, some draw a salary commensurate with what they deem acceptable and plow the rest of the money into the business. Like I said earlier you and other progressives imagine the world in very linear terms when it does not work that way. For every Bill Gates there is somebody eaking out a living from their business in the same space that they are entirely happy with. that guy is the one who is subject to market forces and would be put out of business unless they make hard decisions on pay location etc. They are the ones who are hurt the most when ridiculous demands are made to level the playing field.

    the other thing that you guys seem to forget is that employment is a contract between the employee and the employer. If an employer is able to find people to work at a certain wage that are both happy with why should they pay more? The employee can certainly demand more but if it does not fit within the employers pay structure or they can fill the position with someone at a lower salary why should they not do it?

  101. Michael says:

    “The main reason the rich get richer isn’t by paying the lower classes less. They get richer due to tax laws that are written in their favor. Purposely. Is the 15% tax on dividends fair? Or the farm tax in NJ?”

    Isn’t this indirectly the same thing? Lower taxes for the rich, means higher taxes for the lower classes or shall I say middle class.

  102. Michael says:

    I agree, god bless the people living in this area working at Walmart.

    JJ says:
    July 11, 2014 at 3:35 pm
    In NJ or NY top 10% could be living in near poverty. You really have to be in top 5% to survive.

    Biggest gap in wages is top 1% the barely scrapping into top 1% is not rich at all yet he is lumped with Justin Bieber and Jay Z.

  103. Michael says:

    One of the most important comments on deceit, I think, was made by Adam Smith. He pointed out that a major goal of business is to deceive and oppress the public.

    And one of the striking features of the modern period is the institutionalization of that process, so that we now have huge industries deceiving the public — and they’re very conscious about it, the public relations industry. Interestingly, this developed in the freest countries—in Britain and the US—roughly around time of WWI, when it was recognized that enough freedom had been won that people could no longer be controlled by force. So modes of deception and manipulation had to be developed in order to keep them under control.

    And by now these are huge industries. They not only dominate marketing of commodities, but they also control the political system. As anyone who watches a US election knows, it’s marketing. It’s the same techniques that are used to market toothpaste.

    And, of course, there are power systems in place to facilitate this. Throughout history it’s been mostly the property holders or the educated classes who’ve tended to support power systems. And that’s a large part of what I think education is—it’s a form of indoctrination. You have to reconstruct a picture of the world in order to be conducive to the interests and concerns of the educated classes, and this involves a lot of self-deceit.

    Noam Chomsky, Professor, MIT

  104. Juggalo4eva says:

    Do we really need the idiot Passion Flower to quote Chomsky for us?

  105. joyce says:

    Good thing you support the current system.

    Michael says:
    July 11, 2014 at 4:21 pm

    And that’s a large part of what I think education is—it’s a form of indoctrination.

  106. JJ says:

    Actually poor pay zero percent on cap gains and the rich also have the obama care surcharge on top of the 15%

    Main issue poor is poor cause they are stupid and risk adverse at same time. Meaning they have lower income as they do lessor jobs, did not graduate college. Then to top it off they avoid all forms of risk such as stocks, bonds, CDs, real estate.

    So the little money they have earns zero while their landlord keeps raising rent.

    They are also not bright in purchases. Pay day they are at walmart, costco etc buying stuff like drunken sailors and run out of money by 20 of month. They also do not understand the concept of compounding and buy stuff like tickets, sneakers, apps, smartphones that fall in value.

    Lets say mr and mrs broke dick just cut expenses a lousy $100 bucks a month six years ago and put it into a s&p fund and revinvested dividends. They actually have a pretty good little next egg.

    Mr and Mrs broke dick what every they have left over sits in checking or savings at zero percent and as such seems no big deal to spend it plus no work there already.

    Michael says:
    July 11, 2014 at 3:47 pm

    “The main reason the rich get richer isn’t by paying the lower classes less. They get richer due to tax laws that are written in their favor. Purposely. Is the 15% tax on dividends fair? Or the farm tax in NJ?”

    Isn’t this indirectly the same thing? Lower taxes for the rich, means higher taxes for the lower classes or shall I say middle class.

  107. Fast Eddie says:

    They also do not understand the concept of compounding and buy stuff like tickets, sneakers, apps, smartphones that fall in value.

    Stup1d is as stup1d does. No degree of entitlement can alter the outcome. One either understands the concepts or they don’t.

  108. Grim says:

    But, what can they buy that goes up in value?

  109. joyce says:

    Love the reasoning put forth by the govt. They (allegedly) announce themselves by screaming and shouting “Police! Search Warrant” and then they can do whatever they want. What’s to stop armed criminal invaders (that don’t have the State’s blessing) from doing the same thing? The system shouldn’t even allow judge’s to issue search warrants of this nature (armed invasion) while you’re supposedly still innocent until convicted.

    Juice Box says:
    July 11, 2014 at 3:45 pm

    One for Joyce

    http://www.ksat.com/content/pns/ksat/news/2014/07/08/jurry-finds-perryman-not-guilty-on-all-counts.html

  110. NJT says:

    Grim, (Post#110): Structurally sound fixer-upper, multi-Family rentals.

    Little down required, lotta sweat and impartial vigilance along with being ‘friendly’ with local police. It ain’t for everyone but…where there’s a will…

    But then Muppets (I’m being nice) don’t want to work. Obammie is their mommie.

  111. Ragnar says:

    Libturd,
    Finding the right comments from Chomsky to zap your online enemies is hard work! Maybe MoveOn.Org pays big bucks for this propaganda and our trolls are getting paid ten cents for every regurgitated word they post. Buffet and Soros can afford it.
    Really, would anyone be dumb enough to write all this crap for free?

  112. Fast Eddie says:

    But, what can they buy that goes up in value?

    Equities.

  113. Libturd in bed says:

    I adored Chomsky when I was in my late teens. Then I grew up. Though still left leaning myself. I have lost all faith in our government. Perhaps the anarchist in me is what drew me towards him, or his Ukranian upbringing? Ultimately, we are all just fruit flys in a Skinner Box.

  114. Michael says:

    “Obama, first of all, is running the biggest terrorist operation that exists, maybe in history.”

    — Noam Chomsky (2013)

    Lol…come on, some of you have to agree with this. I think the guy has some very interesting theories. I like how he questions authority. I know he is associated with the left, but he does have some interesting thoughts. In terms of philosophy, he is more open minded than most people in this world. I think that is his gift ( genius). He is able to breakdown and analyze social issues on a whole other level as compared to the avg human being. You need people like this, they give you the ability to see what most can not, due to their unique thought process. He brings some very interesting questions to the table.

  115. Juggalo4eva says:

    stu, you gotta own the Skinner Box and deal death to those who can’t hang

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