Access to credit holding back first time buyers? (Not student loans)

From HousingWire:

What’s holding back first-time homebuyers

The rising burden of student debt doesn’t explain the weakness in home sales to first-time buyers, so the question arises what is holding this segment back?

Capital Economics says that some of the cyclical factors holding back demand have eased, and despite the conventional wisdom, there is no evidence to suggest that homeownership aspirations amongst young households have diminished in recent years.

“This suggests that factors such as credit scoring and risk aversion amongst lenders may be mostly to blame for the weakness in home sales to first-time buyers,” says chief property economist Ed Stansfield.

Stansfield and his analysts re-examined the issue, and in a client note explain how they took it back to basics.

“One possibility is that young people nowadays simply have less desire to own a home. This could reflect the increasing geographical mobility required in modern careers, the fact that they have lived through the biggest housing crash on record, or because renting is seen as more affordable. Our calculations suggest housing is now slightly overvalued compared to rents,” he says. “Nonetheless, there doesn’t appear to have been a fundamental shift in homeownership aspirations. The most recent survey data suggest that nine out of ten people still see homeownership as a key part of the American dream.”

Furthermore, they found, there is no evidence to suggest that young households should have particular difficulty in affording a home.

“…[I]t seems more likely that potential first-time buyers are being especially constrained by continued difficulties in obtaining credit,” he writes. “(They) are generally reliant on mortgage financing, but many will have little or no credit history and the means to make only small down payments on a home.”

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185 Responses to Access to credit holding back first time buyers? (Not student loans)

  1. Essex says:

    How many years would it take first-time homebuyers, earning a median household income, to save enough money for the standard 20% down payment on a median home? Are you sitting down?

    An impossibly long time in many cities, Lindsay David of LF Economics (and a contributor on WOLF STREET) found in his report on mortgage stress. He looked at 30 large US cities, using their local median incomes and median home prices. It assumed that young households could accomplish the tough feat of saving 5% of their income, year after year, through bouts of unemployment, illness, shopping sprees, family expansions, or extended vacations.

    The results are stunning – if just a tad discouraging for first-time buyers.

    In my beloved and crazy boom-and-bust town of San Francisco, where a median home (for example, a two-bedroom no-view apartment in a so-so neighborhood) costs $1 million, it would take – are you ready? – 37 effing years.

    Given its higher median income, San Francisco is only in second place. The winner by a few months is another Bay Area city, San Jose. In San Diego, it would take 33 years. In Los Angeles, 32 years. First-time buyers might be retired before they scrape their theoretical down payment together. Theoretical, because in reality, too many things change, and they’re chasing after a moving target.

    So lower your expectations and step down to buy a below-median home? Here is what TwistedPolitix found on the market in that price category:

    Yes folks, step right up and get your 700 sq. ft. home in Redwood City, California, heart of the Silicon Valley, for just $649,000! The American Dream! 1 bedroom, 1 bath for just $3,154 per month on a mortgage with super low interest rates if you put down 20%.

    If you pay the mortgage back according to the standard 30-year schedule, in April 2045 you will have paid $1,135,721 for a tiny little [bleep] shack. Brilliant!

    And that 20% down payment would still amount to $130,000. How long would it take first-time buyers with a median household income to save up this much money? About a quarter century!

    In New York City, fifth place, it would take just under 25 years, followed by Miami, Boston, and Seattle. In ninth place, Riverside-San Bernardino, CA, just over 20 years. In tenth place, Denver, just under 20 years. This puts five California cities on the list of the top 10 most impossible cities for first-time buyers to buy a home in.

    Of the 30 cities in the chart from LF Economics, there’s only a handful where a household with a median income, and able to save 5%, can come up with a 20% down payment in about a decade.

  2. Essex says:

    Hey teachers! Your healthcare plan is lavish!
    TRENTON — The spending ranged from cutting a single check for nearly $10,000 worth of catering services to charging $1,030 at the Izod Center the day of a Tom Petty concert.

    Since he took office, Gov. Chris Christie charged about $360,000 in discretionary spending for receptions and other costs associated with the job, according to records released by the governor’s office. The taxpayer dollars came from a $95,000-a-year allowance each governor receives on top of the executive’s $175,000 salary.

    The bulk of the charges, about $300,000 of them, were used to purchase food and alcohol, the records show.

  3. grim says:

    #1 – So nonsensical my head is spinning. Too much time, not quite enough insight.

    Why exactly would a median income individual be buying a median priced home? Since when does one equal the other? It never has, and it never will. The only thing in common is the word median, which is irrelevant (the author doesn’t quite understand that).

  4. 1987 Condo says:

    #3 it is hard for the median income to buy that median Aston Martin too!

  5. anon (the good one) says:

    Eddie’s an example of it

    1987 Condo says:
    May 12, 2015 at 6:54 am
    #3 it is hard for the median income to buy that median Aston Martin too!

  6. grim says:

    Median Income of a NJ Buyer in 2012 was $102,900 (statewide median income was $69,667) – which means the median home buyer in NJ makes 45% more than the median individual.

  7. anon (the good one) says:

    @ianbremmer:
    BREAKING: NFL misses inflation targets for 2015

  8. Liquor Luge says:

    What is the median income of people who roam the country in packs, sleeping in the open?

  9. grim says:

    Trick question.

    West of the Mississippi (and highest closest to Salt Lake City) – it’s correlated with the price of Meth, East of the Mississippi (and highest closest to Paterson) – it’s correlated with the price of Heroin.

  10. anon (the good one) says:

    @conradhackett: Median household net worth

    Whites $141,900
    Hispanics $13,700
    Blacks $11,000

  11. grim says:

    He wants $19 for access to that report? I’m not sure who is dumber, the guy who wrote it or the guy who buys it.

  12. Essex says:

    8. How much can she make in a boxcar on a cold afternoon in March.

  13. Essex says:

    10. Damn tats cost $$$$

  14. Libturd in the City says:

    “Whites $141,900
    Hispanics $13,700
    Blacks $11,000”

    I’ll take Whites for $141,900 Alex.

  15. grim says:

    What’s the median household net worth by educational attainment? Specifically, let’s exclude everyone over 50 years old from this analysis.

  16. D-FENS says:

    What is the median income of Democrats vs. Republicans?

  17. D-FENS says:

    Thanks Obama.

    anon (the good one) says:

    May 12, 2015 at 7:26 am

    @conradhackett: Median household net worth

    Whites $141,900
    Hispanics $13,700
    Blacks $11,000

  18. Libturd in the City says:

    ” It assumed that young households could accomplish the tough feat of saving 5% of their income, year after year, through bouts of unemployment, illness, shopping sprees, family expansions, or extended vacations.”

    Right here is what I would dub the Millennial Fulcrum (in honor of Star Wars VII). First, 5% is way to little to save. Bouts of unemployment? Well only if you suck. Illness? Someone in their twenties and thirties should not be ill. Shopping sprees? Come on! Family expansions? Wait a couple years, you idiots. Extended vacations? What the heck is that?

    The entitlement mentality is strong within this generation.

    Then again, read the posts of A-none and Flabicus Maximus and you will see where it’s coming from. After all, who needs to work hard when you can steal it from those who do?

  19. [1] LOL – Those shopping sprees and extended vacations are really hard on families. I wonder what previous generations did when they were suddenly hit by those unpreventable maladies.

    It assumed that young households could accomplish the tough feat of saving 5% of their income, year after year, through bouts of unemployment, illness, shopping sprees, family expansions, or extended vacations.

  20. [18 & 19] LOL, Lib. I think we were thinking the same thing at the same time.

  21. The Great Pumpkin says:

    lol…too funny. Fatman is the definition of hypocrite. His yearly food budget allowance is more than 99% of teachers yearly salaries.

    Essex says:
    May 12, 2015 at 6:26 am
    Hey teachers! Your healthcare plan is lavish!
    TRENTON — The spending ranged from cutting a single check for nearly $10,000 worth of catering services to charging $1,030 at the Izod Center the day of a Tom Petty concert.

    Since he took office, Gov. Chris Christie charged about $360,000 in discretionary spending for receptions and other costs associated with the job, according to records released by the governor’s office. The taxpayer dollars came from a $95,000-a-year allowance each governor receives on top of the executive’s $175,000 salary.

    The bulk of the charges, about $300,000 of them, were used to purchase food and alcohol, the records show.

  22. [1] Aussie wankers. The LF Economics “Team”:

    http://www.lfeconomics.com/team.html

  23. Since when does the Grating Pumpscum get up in the AM?

  24. Xolepa – from yesterday – Maybe cement board? I think it’s used instead of sheetrock in bathrooms.

  25. Libturd in the City says:

    “The taxpayer dollars came from a $95,000-a-year allowance” I’m not defending Christie, so much as pointing out the lameness in lambasting the governor for using his expense account. After all, he’s been in office since 2009 and could have spent $475,000. The way I see it, Christie has saved the taxpayers of NJ $175,000.

    And to compare this to the health care plan of teachers is just silly. There’s a big difference between having the responsibility of running (or ruining) the state of New Jersey compared with teaching 7 year-olds to play crab soccer in Phys Ed.

    Baa!

  26. Libturd in the City says:

    I don’t think cement board would cut you, as heavy as it is. I’m going with boulders of plaster still ExPat.

  27. The Great Pumpkin says:

    He didn’t save anything. Cost us 400 million in fed education dollars with his slip up when in office. God knows how much on Revel and AC. God knows how much in legal fights. God knows how much in corporate welfare. But the good guy put a stop to a tunnel connecting nyc and nj because we would have over-payed for it. Thanks buddy. Do you know how much economic gain our economy would have received long term from that tunnel?? But thanks for saving us the money. Now when we need to build the tunnel in 20 years, we will pay 10 times more than the original plan he put down. Brilliant.

    Libturd in the City says:
    May 12, 2015 at 8:13 am
    “The taxpayer dollars came from a $95,000-a-year allowance” I’m not defending Christie, so much as pointing out the lameness in lambasting the governor for using his expense account. After all, he’s been in office since 2009 and could have spent $475,000. The way I see it, Christie has saved the taxpayers of NJ $175,000.

    And to compare this to the health care plan of teachers is just silly. There’s a big difference between having the responsibility of running (or ruining) the state of New Jersey compared with teaching 7 year-olds to play crab soccer in Phys Ed.

    Baa!

  28. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Also, I think a teacher’s job is ten times tougher than being a gov. Must be tough traveling all the time. The wine and dine part is prob the toughest part of the job. No wait, toughest part of the job is def lining up his buddies pockets.

    Libturd in the City says:
    May 12, 2015 at 8:13 am
    “The taxpayer dollars came from a $95,000-a-year allowance” I’m not defending Christie, so much as pointing out the lameness in lambasting the governor for using his expense account. After all, he’s been in office since 2009 and could have spent $475,000. The way I see it, Christie has saved the taxpayers of NJ $175,000.

    And to compare this to the health care plan of teachers is just silly. There’s a big difference between having the responsibility of running (or ruining) the state of New Jersey compared with teaching 7 year-olds to play crab soccer in Phys Ed.

    Baa!

  29. The Great Pumpkin says:

    27- God knows how much he has cost us by having our credit rating drop due to his actions. How much more are we going to pay to borrow money now? It didn’t have to be this way, but knocking down the credit rating helps his boys on wall st when we borrow money.

  30. nwnj says:

    Did anyone read the article on Bloomberg yesterday, the average net worth of millenials is 10k? I assume that includes a lot of negative net worths but that seemed like a shocking number.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-05-11/financial-advisers-don-t-care-about-millennials-and-the-feeling-is-mutual

  31. nwnj says:

    The union folks love to liken themselves to executives when comparing compensation(This CEO makes blah, blah, blah). There’s no validity to it whatsoever but it doesn’t stop them from trying.

  32. D-FENS says:

    That’s a bit dishonest don’t you think? Most of those bonds and pension obligations are from previous administrations.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 12, 2015 at 8:29 am
    27- God knows how much he has cost us by having our credit rating drop due to his actions. How much more are we going to pay to borrow money now? It didn’t have to be this way, but knocking down the credit rating helps his boys on wall st when we borrow money.

  33. grim says:

    The youngest millennials at this point are still under 20, depending on where you draw the line, they could be as young as 15. Why the hell is anyone looking at the net worth of this cohort. Again, idiocy.

  34. Essex says:

    Libturd pwnd

  35. leftwing says:

    Liberals out in full force today.

    2. SX. Taxpayer, underscored, amount comes from governor’s $95k expense allowance. Please argue that a governor, any governor any state, should not have the ability to throw a card down on the counter for business. Keep in mind I have no particular affection for this guy. And put the amount in perspective relative to any business.

    10. Anon. 10x difference top to bottom in median income. So what. Have data back to turn of last century? Want to compare the Irish to the general population at that time? How about amongst the German populations today that settled in NYC, PA, and upstate NY a century and a half ago? Gap is probably even wider.

    I understand the left have genetic predispositions to control and toward the arrogance of believing they always knowing what is better for everyone else.

    Fact is though you can’t engineer every outcome. Personal events and choices – many times generational – matter.

    As an aside, my youngest came home the other day from school with a good smirk. Asked what was up, he said he took my advice in civics class. When the teacher discusses the political spectrum I told him to classify the left as we have always done in this household since before he was able to grasp the concept – a liberal is someone who wants to take your money and control your life.

    Seems his in class comment sparked quite a discussion.

  36. Essex says:

    35. Your ideology is doing your child a disservice. He’ll grow up with no real understanding of the differences between the parties. Granted, so many government programs fall short and both parties seem to have become parodies of themselves.

    As for the Governor, the “optics” look bad. The guy is pathetic.

  37. Juice Box says:

    Plumpkin the Arc tunnel was an almost a 10 year project with 2018 was the earliest it would be used, and most likely would have run over by years and many billions. The replacement “Gateway Project” Amtrak proposed just two years after the cancellation of the ARC tunnel is a much better and bigger project which includes high speed rail. Too bad our local politicians in Congress cannot get the funding passed down in Washington DC, it should have been a Federal Project from the beginning.

  38. syncmaster says:

    Regarding the Merck property in Readington, a letter from Readington’ mayor seems to clearly imply that the potential buyer is not another corporation like Google/Apple/Chubb/BofA but rather a real estate investment firm and the future uses of the site are still very much up for discussion.

    Excerpt below, emphases added:

    To the editor:

    Readington residents can breathe a sigh of relief now that the Merck property is under contract. We were all sorry to see Merck go, but we understand that the corporate culture has changed and large single-use corporate campuses with one tenant are no longer viable.

    We have begun discussions with the contract purchaser about the future of this huge property, with our emphasis on jobs, quality ratables and finding uses that fit in with and benefit Readington as a whole.

    We encourage Readington residents to submit ideas of what they would like to see on this site.

    Betty Ann Fort
    Readignton Township
    The writer is mayor of the township

  39. grim says:

    35. Your ideology is doing your child a disservice.

    Agree, what responsible parent allows his kid to take a civics class anyway.

  40. yome says:

    The median cost of a house in San Jose is $900,000
    Median household income is about $82,000 in San Jose

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/san-joses-median-home-price-hits-900000-2015-05-11

  41. leftwing says:

    SX, thanks for the gratuitous parenting advice.

    I have no desire for my children to understand “the differences between the parties”.

    The idea that there are two schools of thought each embodying some ‘national’ philosophy is an inexplicable concept to me.

    Any organized activity or entity – policies, parties, governments, or your Friday night dinner party – exists because of the collective individual decisions and consent of the participants.

    Rather than a limited top down approach of “here are two existing choices of outcomes” I prefer to focus on a bottom up approach of reason, responsibility, intellect, and accountability.

    Build that base, and the evaluation of the “differences between the parties” takes care of itself.

    It just so happens when I watch the morning news or otherwise discuss current events with my boys and there is a truly “WTF” moment for them it always seems to come from the left. That is not lost on them.

    I’m waiting until the youngest has worked for pay before moving the concept further – how taking your money is the ultimate control of your life. Figure he’ll appreciate it more.

  42. Liquor Luge says:

    sx (13)-

    You mean, tats don’t add to your net worth?

    “Damn tats cost $$$$”

  43. Libturd in the City says:

    “Libturd pwnd”

    By Blumpy? Why that’s preposterous.

  44. Liquor Luge says:

    Taking cash money is one thing. Destroying wealth is another.

    If liberals would just be sated with grabbing cash, I could cope. However, they want to destroy not only the wealth of the country, but one’s ability to accumulate real wealth.

  45. homeboken says:

    The Original NJ ExPat says:
    May 12, 2015 at 7:56 am
    [1] LOL – Those shopping sprees and extended vacations are really hard on families. I wonder what previous generations did when they were suddenly hit by those unpreventable maladies.

    It assumed that young households could accomplish the tough feat of saving 5% of their income, year after year, through bouts of unemployment, illness, shopping sprees, family expansions, or extended vacations.

    I agree that the above is all true and in the eyes of someone that wishes to save for a home, then disposing of their income in a frivolous manner like this is really stupid. But I am trying to take a 30,000 foot view of this – What if the Millenial’s are acting rational? What if they have no desire to save a % of their income so that they can purchase a home? I take the position that someone in their early 20’s values theri mobility and flexibility highly, so they are acting rational as of right now. But are they really acting any differently than the majority of any other 20 something generation before them?

    The question for me is – Does this generation ever develop the desire to own homes en masse? Does the allure or stability when raising their own family trump the desire to relocate for employment? I have a strong feeling that the vast majority of this generation saw homes/mortgages as an albatross and burden during their formative years. It was likely the biggest cause of tension and argument in their homes not their sense of safety.
    Admittedly – the above is all based strictly on obeservation and I present no math or facts to back this up. But I will say this – My professional life for the last 15 years has been spent buying/owning-managing/selling large multi-family apartment complexes around the country. I have never seen stronger site level operations across all locations and class. Luxury to Affordable, class A – C, there is unbelievable demand for rentals. That demand is pulled directly from the potential home buyer pool.

  46. yome says:

    From San Jose Article
    “One benefit from rising prices is support for homeowners who are struggling to gain equity and firm up their personal finances. But too-high prices also mean that families, especially younger households, can’t afford to buy homes”

    What good is virtual equity if you have no buyer? “Firm up personal finances” by borrowing from equity? Work harder to pay for the borrowed money? This is all psychological effect. No more than Marketing Strategy. If you sell, Where will you go? It is not like your house is the only one went up in price.

  47. Liquor Luge says:

    Note that the above is not an endorsement of the Rethuglican dicktards currently scheming to rule your behavior and steal your money in a style that isn’t so unlike the liberals’.

  48. Liquor Luge says:

    Who needs a shopping spree when you can go on a shooting spree?

  49. Libturd in the City says:

    And I’m no fan of CC myself. But some things are news and others are shallow, immature attacks. Believe me, and I’m sure Ben will vouch for me…The healthcare insurance teachers receive is way better than that of anyone of us receives here in the old private sector. Does anyone else have coverage for life? Ben’s health insurance coverage in his retirement (and that of his partner) will cost more than what CC spent on parties during his service as governor. Now why don’t you point out something newsworthy or even factual.

    Like the fact that CC should not have spent what funding he did receive on The Tunnel to bail out NJ’s broke highway fund instead of raising the gas tax. Not that I want to pay more for gas.

  50. [30] That sounds about right. Resale value of Macbook Pro, iPhone6, iPad, organs ~= $10K

    Did anyone read the article on Bloomberg yesterday, the average net worth of millenials is 10k? I assume that includes a lot of negative net worths but that seemed like a shocking number.

  51. yome says:

    There is no question Millennials are still living at home. My Kids are both working with good jobs from Forbes 100 Top Companies. They spend a lot but save tons of money too. I made sure they save the 30% that they would have spent on rent plus 10% in 401k.
    How many Millennials are living at home and saving the same way? I don’t think the premise Millennials are broke is absolutely not true. They are smarter

  52. syncmaster says:

    This whole Chris Christie catering thing is just another way to remind people he’s fat. It’s schoolyard bullying, point at the fat guy and laugh. The catering bill was for parties, it’s not like he bought a million dollars worth of Twinkies and ate them all himself.

  53. Libturd in the City says:

    Homeboken – I would attribute the millennial’s lack of wanting to buy a home more from a lack of financial literacy, than from the psychological perspective you suggested. The staggering difference in the cost of renting a place to live over a lifetime versus owning is huge. Also, I would argue that it’s much more expensive to keep up with the Joneses today, than it was for earlier generations. Lack of wage growth isn’t helping. But if you value needless discretionary purchases such as iPhones and iWatches over savings, you will struggle to save for a 20% downpayment.

  54. anon (the good one) says:

    and when the time comes, just like Xolepa’s, the young repub will desperately want to attend a liberal college.

    leftwing says:
    May 12, 2015 at 8:45 am

    As an aside, my youngest came home the other day from school with a good smirk. Asked what was up, he said he took my advice in civics class. When the teacher discusses the political spectrum I told him to classify the left as we have always done in this household since before he was able to grasp the concept – a liberal is someone who wants to take your money and control your life.

  55. And in the case of you not having any money, then a liberal wants to give you enough money, phones, and cheese not to riot. I guess some conservatives do too.

    a liberal is someone who wants to take your money and control your life.

  56. leftwing says:

    48. My contempt for mainstream (FKA country club) Republicans has no bounds.

    At least the liberals are somewhat honest when they take your money and control your life. They’ll wrap it some moralistic language toward an end of their own choosing that sounds good on the surface – “eliminate income inequality” – while doing what they always intended to do in the first place. Pick your pocket.

    The Republicans have a higher standard. By allegedly embodying a philosophy of economic freedom and choice it is inexcusable for them to arrive at the same endpoint.

  57. homeboken – How exactly do you expect to see into their parents’ basements from 30,000 feet?

    But I am trying to take a 30,000 foot view of this – What if the Millenial’s are acting rational?

  58. Libturd in the City says:

    “the young repub will desperately want to attend a liberal college”

    With age, comes wisdom. With that said, I picture A-none in diapers still.

  59. leftwing says:

    “And in the case of you not having any money, then a liberal wants to give you enough money, phones, and cheese not to riot.”

    Don’t forget Oprah and the View.

  60. Liquor Luge says:

    Red team corrupt. Blue team corrupt. All a diversion, rigged up in order to keep you from paying attention to the giant grift that is designed to shift the entire nation’s accumulated wealth to banksters, warmongers, gubmint drones and billionaires.

    Wake me up when the public executions start.

  61. Liquor Luge says:

    There are soap operas that are less contrived than the swindles perpetrated daily in the halls of gubmint.

  62. leftwing says:

    “and when the time comes, just like Xolepa’s, the young repub will desperately want to attend a liberal college.”

    In their most elemental forms social liberalism and fiscal conservatism are more similar than different.

    Noodle on that one for a while.

  63. Liquor Luge says:

    Alleged liberals want to buy the votes of the entitlement classes.

    Alleged conservatives want to buy the votes of officeholders.

    Two sides of the same flattened turd called politics.

  64. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Do you know how bad we need another tunnel? I don’t care if we were overpaying on it, we needed it. Instead we over-payed on corporate handouts to move a business a block over and instead pissed away money on AC and the meadowlands. That’s wasting money. Overpaying on a project that would have payed for itself eventually was a much better option. Thank you fatman.

    Juice Box says:
    May 12, 2015 at 9:13 am
    Plumpkin the Arc tunnel was an almost a 10 year project with 2018 was the earliest it would be used, and most likely would have run over by years and many billions. The replacement “Gateway Project” Amtrak proposed just two years after the cancellation of the ARC tunnel is a much better and bigger project which includes high speed rail. Too bad our local politicians in Congress cannot get the funding passed down in Washington DC, it should have been a Federal Project from the beginning.

  65. Liquor Luge says:

    wing (63)-

    This explains how a guy like Bernie Sanders has become the Diogenes of Amerikan politics.

    “In their most elemental forms social liberalism and fiscal conservatism are more similar than different.”

  66. Liquor Luge says:

    punkin (65)-

    I wish someone would carve a tunnel through your head.

    “Do you know how bad we need another tunnel?”

  67. Juice Box says:

    re # 53 – He is already a non-story in the upcoming election, he isn’t even polling well in NJ with Republicans.

    According to a Monmouth University Poll Garden State Republicans think Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker would be a better president than their very own Governor.

    http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/05/nj_republicans_sour_on_christie_poll_finds.html

  68. IMO, what screws millennials most people these days is how comfortable they are with a monthly nut. It doesn’t even matter if they pay for it themselves, or it’s growing out of control, people are just comfortable with it. The day I started my first job out of college my monthly nut was $300 rent + gasoline + food. My first brand new car was $5,000 down and $273.81/month for 12 months and then it was paid off. That was after realizing my first choice of car would cost me $12,000 over 3 years for an $8300 car, which was unacceptable, so I lowered my sights to a cheaper car, a bigger down payment and a shorter loan. Credit was not easy and credit was not cheap at the beginning of the bond bull run in the early 80’s and now it is, so saving is something that’s relegated to a later time that never happens for a lot of people, I think.

  69. [65] punkinforbrains – Yep. You are a finance wiz.

    I don’t care if we were overpaying on it, we needed it.

  70. Juice Box says:

    re # 65 – Do you know how bad we need another tunnel?

    Yes more than you.

  71. leftwing says:

    Re: Sanders

    Laughable, yes.

    At least someone is challenging the Queen’s coronation.

  72. The Great Pumpkin says:

    How did that 2 billion go building Revel? Could have just used that wasted money on overpaying for the tunnel. I would have been fine with cancelling the tunnel in the name of not overspending, but not if you just took the money and pissed it away on things that will do nothing for the economy in this state.

    The Original NJ ExPat says:
    May 12, 2015 at 10:33 am
    [65] punkinforbrains – Yep. You are a finance wiz.

    I don’t care if we were overpaying on it, we needed it.

  73. Libturd in the City says:

    Revel did not cost the state a dime. Check your facts.

  74. The Great Pumpkin says:

    I guess pension money doesn’t count.

    Libturd in the City says:
    May 12, 2015 at 10:44 am
    Revel did not cost the state a dime. Check your facts.

  75. Xolepa says:

    It is absolutely hilarious and entertaining how one member of this board keeps referring to my daughter’s uber-liberal NESCAC college as a measure of conservative hypocrisy. Little does he/she know that the college’s ideological leanings represent a push back to the majority of the students’ perception of what is wrong and what is right. There is a vocal and active minority on that campus that do ‘radical’ things. This past fall, a bunch of kids laid themselves down on the cafeteria floor mutterring ‘ hands up don’t shoot’. That’s all and well, but if my girl trips over them and breaks her elbow, who is going to be held responsible?
    My daughter is a silent observer of the liberal processes that go on there, but the bottom line is, NESCAC colleges have extremely strong Alumni networks. Better than the Ivies. Ask me how I know.
    And those Alumni networks transcend political ideologies.

    p.s. That one person doing the bashing can keep it up for all it’s worth. It’s true entertainment. Better than comedy hour.

    pps. Just secured tix for CSN in Brooklyn this weekend. Yahooee. You guys out there raved guitar last week. No one mentioned Stephen Stills. His voice may be gone, but his fingers still work the magic.

  76. Essex says:

    It’s funny how screwed up things are in NJ. Horrible roads, failing schools, disastrous urban policies. Yet people live here happily “if” they work. Anything else is a recipe for disaster.

  77. D-FENS says:

    The state provided $261 million in “tax incentives”. Revel never received the money as part of the ERG plan would be that they couldn’t receive it until they were profitable and paying taxes.

    That never happened.

    The Great Pumpkin says:

    May 12, 2015 at 10:38 am

    How did that 2 billion go building Revel? Could have just used that wasted money on overpaying for the tunnel. I would have been fine with cancelling the tunnel in the name of not overspending, but not if you just took the money and pissed it away on things that will do nothing for the economy in this state.

  78. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Long before I became a police officer, the State of NJ enacted a LAW which required police officers and firemen to contribute a certain percentage of their salary into the states “secure” pension fund. Throughout my 22 year career, I have paid 8.5% of my salary, as mandated by law, into this fund every pay period. I was not given the option to place my 8.5% in an IRA or other investment fund. Every pay check since I was 25 years old had the 8.5% taken out of my pay and placed into the PFRS with the promise that the money would be there when I retired. By LAW, towns and municipalities were required to match that 8.5%.

    By the time Christine Whitman took office, there was over 100 billion dollars in the fund. This meant that at the current rate of retirements, pension costs for police officers and firemen were funded at 104%, well into the future. This was a prudent and financially responsible plan that worked, and it provided security for the families of these men and woman who risked their lives everyday serving and protecting the citizens of NJ. In no way was it heavily over funded or excessive. It covered the costs of promised retirements with a small cushion left over.

    It was at this time that Christine Whitman stepped in. Governor Whitman recognized the billions of dollars in our “secure” and “separate” pension fund, and she proceeded to raid that fund. Unknown and unannounced to the public, monies were indiscriminately withdrawn from the PFRS and used to pay for Whitman’s tax cuts and to balance the state budget. Billions of dollars were taken, and to make matters worse, the Whitman administration passed a law allowing towns and municipalities to no longer contribute to the fund. Over 3 billion dollars in contributions were skipped over the next 8 years, while the individual police officers and firefighters continued to have their 8.5% contribution taken from them and placed into the PFRS.

    The state gambled for years, relying heavily on the returns from the stock market to cover the missing funds. Politicians misspoke on the campaign trail, touting the virtues of how their financial genius was able to balance their state and local budgets, and the public was lulled into a sense of false financial security. But the small print in Whitman’s bill was ignored. The funds they failed to contribute would have to be made up at a later date. The pension reprieve was temporary, and their contributions would have to be paid back, just like any other loan. It was quietly suggested by the Whitman administration that towns set these contributions aside for when the state called to make good on them. It appears most towns and municipalities failed to heed this advice. Governors DiFrancesco, McGreevy, and Codey continued this trend, and all failed to call the towns and municipalities on their “loan”, while the PFRS fund continued to dwindle down close to 66 billion dollars. They remained silent. To bring this to light at this point would certainly mean political suicide, knowing that towns and municipalities would have to raise taxes to make up for their error in financial judgment and planning.

    It wasn’t until Governor Corzine took office that this trend was stopped, but unfortunately, the damage was done. Governor Corzine made the call the Governors before him were afraid to make. He advised the towns and municipalities that it was time to pay back the monies the towns had been given a temporary reprieve on. And the media jumped on this, printing bold headlines “TOWNS GOING BROKE OVER POLICE AND FIRE PENSIONS”. This attention grabbing and misleading headline made it appear that your police and firemen were bilking the tax payers dry, when the truth is totally the opposite. The politicians bilked your police officers and firemen dry, and in the long run, the tax payers of NJ.

    Towns and municipalities knew they were going to have to pay this money back, and for them to insinuate otherwise is simply not true. Realizing the gravity of the situation, a new bill was introduced and passed into law. This allowed the towns to pay back the loan given to them by their public employees in increments; starting at 20%, 40%, 60%, 80%, and finally 100% each proceeding year. Towns and municipalities continue to act as if they have been caught unaware and shocked by this entire process. The public is being told that payments for police and fire pensions are doubling, tripling, and quadrupling, and that the public employee system is out of control. What the public needs to know is that they are the victims of a mounting debt that was created by the Whitman administration and compounded by those following her tenure. To blame your public employees for the abuses of the pension system is ludicrous at best, especially when our elected officials are the ones responsible for raiding the fund, and then enacting the legislation on how and when to pay it back.

    Governor Florio recognized the financial hardship facing the state of NJ, and proceeded to raise the state sales tax to 7%. This helped spell political suicide for him, and Governor Whitman was not going to make the same mistake. She repealed the 7%, dropping it back down to the 6%, knowing full well this money would have to come from some where. Her solution was to raid the Police and Fire Pension System, allowing her to balance the state budget and give the false appearance that all was fiscally sound under her watch.

    Our current Governor, facing the same financial crisis of those going before him, has chosen a similar route, but one with a more vilifying tone. He has again found the same victim: Your public employees. When asked about the pension situation in the State of NJ, Governor Christie replied “I wasn’t going to put 3 billion dollars into a failing pension system. We need pension reform. I passed some already for new hirees, and this fall we are going after the current employees and pension reform and benefits because we are broke.” No where does he mention how the public employees had already bailed out this state years before, and now he is focused on “GOING AFTER” the current employees to fix a mess created and compounded by politicians. To say otherwise for him would be political suicide should he aspire to higher political office, and as most of those before him, he is not about to risk his future; Rather, he would gamble on the future of those men and woman and their families who have served this state with honor and integrity.

    The principals of the pension system are not broken Mr. Governor. What is broken is the manner in which the politicians have treated and abused it. Yes, the system is failing now, but not because of your police officers and firemen. As of 2009, the pension fund should have assets of 112 billion dollars to meet its obligations, yet it is currently sitting at 66 billion. It is the largest unfunded liability in the country. NJ is the first state ever to be charged with fraud by the Securities and Exchange Commission, and Governor Christie, strangely, has no comment on this. Yet he continues his rhetoric on the evils done to us by our police officers and firemen, ignoring the truth and lambasting and vilifying us at every turn. As the saying goes, “Politics has no shame when it comes to preserving your place in office. Why let the truth get in between a good, attention grabbing headline?”

    The system is on the brink of collapse, and continued arrogance and mudslinging will not fix it. The truth is what it is Mr. Governor, and there is no getting around that. Politicians put us in this mess for their own political gain, not our public employees, as you would like the public to believe. You know this and need to stop ignoring the facts. How we deal with it from here is the measure of each of our character and integrity. I know the public is smart enough to recognize this, and I hope that you are too. Long after you are gone, we will still be here, protecting and serving as we always have. In the end, all we have left is our name. Let’s hope yours is remembered for you’re integrity and not for what you have slung so far in your race for political aspiration. I challenge you to do the right thing, as so many police officers and firemen strive to do every day for their families and the citizens of NJ. [Share your thoughts below]

    Michael F. Pocquat Mount Olive, NJ

    http://www.njlawman.com/op-ed/001-nj-police-pensions.htm

  79. Libturd in the City says:

    Pumpkin,

    You are simply a sucker. Do me a favor. Find out how much that pension fund should be worth without the states matching contribution?

  80. Juice Box says:

    re# 80- “allowing towns and municipalities to no longer contribute to the fund”

    This is where the blame lies with the local politicians they are the ones that skipped the payments.

    “Yes, the system is failing now, but not because of your police officers and firemen.”

    So they aren’t doing social promotions and running up the overtime meter in the last three years of employment to inflate their pension?

  81. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [76] xolepa,

    Please tell me she isn’t a Lord Jeff.

    Amherst: Where the men are men and the women are too!

  82. The Great Pumpkin says:

    If it is too generous, how do you explain that it was over funded in the 90’s? How could the system work this long (over 20 years) with no contribution? Don’t sit here and do the math for one individual. Does your math take into account the people that payed into the system their whole life and died in the first year of retirement? I’m sure a good amount of people fall into this situation. I know this teacher that retired last year and died in her first month of retirement. Where does all that money fit into your statistical analysis?

    Libturd in the City says:
    May 12, 2015 at 11:18 am
    Pumpkin,

    You are simply a sucker. Do me a favor. Find out how much that pension fund should be worth without the states matching contribution?

  83. clotluva says:

    Lead article is a hoot. He wants to “take it back to basics” but avoids discussing price and credit risks and rather talks about “desires” and “aspirations”. Economists like this tarnish the profession.

    Why would someone with no credit history feel entitled to borrow a few hundred thousand dollars? If you need credit and can’t get it, then you can’t afford it.

  84. Essex says:

    81. Pwned

  85. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [47] yome,

    ““One benefit from rising prices is support for homeowners who are struggling to gain equity and firm up their personal finances. But too-high prices also mean that families, especially younger households, can’t afford to buy homes”

    I recall being phone-interviewed by a couple of partners in Mayer, Brown’s Palo Alto office nearly a decade ago. We were discussing comp and the topic of home prices came up. One of them said that it wasn’t so bad, that you could easily find a starter home in a decent area for 1.5 million.

    Good thing it was a phone interview. I’m not sure the look on my face would have pleased them.

  86. The Great Pumpkin says:

    So public workers don’t deserve a pension because the private workers have taken a beating in fighting for their worker rights? They have given all the rights back that were won during the labor reform movement a 100 years ago. The issue here isn’t that the public workers should not have a pension because the private sector had theirs taken away, but that ALL workers should be given a pension. They are beating up the worker till no end and you are joining the wrong side in the fight.

    Libturd in the City says:
    May 12, 2015 at 11:18 am
    Pumpkin,

    You are simply a sucker. Do me a favor. Find out how much that pension fund should be worth without the states matching contribution?

  87. Essex says:

    The older that I get the less I really buy into ideologies. I think the truly gullible are folks who believe one is party or the other is looking out for you. Their only goal is to continue to suck that gubmint test. I also believe more in the ecosystem and the co-existence of varying agendas which tend to form a society.

    Betcha Libturd’s firm has a couple of gubmint contracts in their bidness portfolio.

  88. Essex says:

    88. Pwned.

  89. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [10] a-none

    Your chart highlights a very serious problem for those of us with white privilege. I appreciate you bringing this to our attention.

    Fortunately, I have an answer:

    http://www.shop.opencarrytexas.org/3×5-Modern-Gonzales-Flag-GonzalesMod.htm

  90. Libturd in the City says:

    Keep trying Essex :P

    I really think that Blumpy has no clue how the state pensions even work. They were never overfunded. The states contribution was based on some insanely high guaranteed investment returns. Whitman served during the tech bubbly Clinton years so the stock market returns were outsized. They were so great that she decided not to make the state contribution since it wasn’t necessary since the pension appeared to be over funded. Of course, this is a mistake as the surplus years are needed to balance out the deficit years, when the stock markets correct. Then Man Gravy, Corzine and CC all did nothing to correct this deficit. So the issue is not partisan in nature.

  91. homeboken says:

    “The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 12, 2015 at 11:29 am
    So public workers don’t deserve a pension because the private workers have taken a beating in fighting for their worker rights”

    YES – Exactly! The public worker DESERVES every single penny that they themselves contributed to their own retirement funds. Every single dollar that was “matched, donated, legislated to be contributed etc,” is an additional benefit. And though they may have at one time been expecting that benefit as part of their contract, they need to understand that the public can and will vote as it suits them to modify and change legislation and laws to fit the current economic environment and agenda.

    There are literally dozens of entitlement programs available that people believe are their unbreakable, constitutional rights. Section 8 vouchers to Mortgage Interest Deduction – all these programs exists because they have not been legislated away. They can be if the majority decides to do so. It has and will continue to happen Pumpkin

  92. Libturd in the City says:

    Ultimately, there are two things wrong with the pension. One, had the state been contributing all along, the pension would still not be fully funded based on the 8%-10% return on investments necessary for the pension to reach its guaranteed payout needs. These payments could have only been paid for through increases in taxes, tolls, etc or cuts in government services (reduction in the size of government, which the unions would have fought every step of the way).

  93. Libturd in the City says:

    Second, a guaranteed return is a cr0ck of sh1t and to make the public pay for it is unfair.

  94. Libturd in the City says:

    Who makes up the shortfalls in individuals IRAs, 401ks when the market collapses? Why does Joe fireman and Bob the teacher deserve a guaranteed return until death (including the death of their spouse)? Every single study of private vs. public workers total compensation package reveals a huge advantage for the government worker. I’m not talking about the studies funded by the unions and liberal think tanks that ignore the pensions in their studies and include executive compensation as their benchmarks to comparison.

    Here’s where that poor Police Sergeant who makes 115K base lives. http://tinyurl.com/that-poor-sgt

    He put in his 23 years. He’s sure to retire sometime in the next 3 years and then will go on to consult while making about 80K per year for the rest of his life with deeply discounted supplemental health insurance.

    You and I will slave for 40 to 50 years. If the market crashes about the time we want to retire, tough luck. Want health care? You’ll pay through the nose for it. Think you’ll make 80K per year off your 8.5% contribution to your 401K? I doubt it. Of course, you’ll only need to pay for 10 or 20 years of retirement. Not the 40 years that public servant will spend in retirement.

    I wish I could have his struggles. You wish you had his problems too Blumpy.

    Pwned? I think not Essex, and even you know it, but would never admit it.

  95. D-FENS says:

    I blame rich people for all of my problems.

  96. D-FENS says:

    I think I could vote Democrat if they taxed the rich and used the money to give everyone a government issued firearm in order to deal with the problem of inequality.

  97. Liquor Luge says:

    Xolepa, my son may be a Jumbo in 2016. Soccer helps at that skool.

  98. Ragnar says:

    Libturd – the inflation adjusted return the federal government is willing to offer normal suckers like us is zero. And it’s been zero since 2010. It’s part of their trickle down theory. If they drive down the returns on fixed income, and thereby herd people into accepting lower returns for even riskier assets, and drive up prices of all financial assets, then we will feel rich and hire little pimpkins to give us tennis lessons, who will in turn be willing to spend more at McDonalds so that the government can force up the minimum wage, so the McDonalds workers can afford to buy more pot.

    https://www.treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/indepth/ibonds/res_ibonds_iratesandterms.htm#past

  99. phoenix says:

    Never understood why police retire at such a young age. Yeah maybe not walk the beat or go on swat raids, but can’t they still dust for fingerprints, take reports, look for missing children? You would think with all of that experience (what others brag about in most careers) that they would not be washed up like an old dishrag at 50. What happens to the “street smarts” and the connection to the community when they go? Pilots get to go to 65 before retiring.

  100. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Yea, because all the low wage wal-mart type jobs out there bring down the #s. Don’t tell me it’s better to work for the govt than a company like Google. Their perk are insane.

    Libturd in the City says:
    May 12, 2015 at 12:14 pm
    Who makes up the shortfalls in individuals IRAs, 401ks when the market collapses? Why does Joe fireman and Bob the teacher deserve a guaranteed return until death (including the death of their spouse)? Every single study of private vs. public workers total compensation package reveals a huge advantage for the government worker. I’m not talking about the studies funded by the unions and liberal think tanks that ignore the pensions in their studies and include executive compensation as their benchmarks to comparison.

  101. The Great Pumpkin says:

    They were over-funded—that’s a fact. The govt stole from the workers by not contributing—another fact.

    Libturd in the City says:
    May 12, 2015 at 12:10 pm
    Keep trying Essex :P

    I really think that Blumpy has no clue how the state pensions even work. They were never overfunded. The states contribution was based on some insanely high guaranteed investment returns. Whitman served during the tech bubbly Clinton years so the stock market returns were outsized. They were so great that she decided not to make the state contribution since it wasn’t necessary since the pension appeared to be over funded. Of course, this is a mistake as the surplus years are needed to balance out the deficit years, when the stock markets correct. Then Man Gravy, Corzine and CC all did nothing to correct this deficit. So the issue is not partisan in nature.

  102. Liquor Luge says:

    Son is a more strident libertarian than I am. Jumboworld could elicit some interesting reactions from him.

  103. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Oh, I get it!! It’s okay to bail out wall st and banks, but not okay to bail out middle class workers. I understand very well how your mindset works.

    homeboken says:
    May 12, 2015 at 12:11 pm
    “The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 12, 2015 at 11:29 am
    So public workers don’t deserve a pension because the private workers have taken a beating in fighting for their worker rights”

    YES – Exactly! The public worker DESERVES every single penny that they themselves contributed to their own retirement funds. Every single dollar that was “matched, donated, legislated to be contributed etc,” is an additional benefit. And though they may have at one time been expecting that benefit as part of their contract, they need to understand that the public can and will vote as it suits them to modify and change legislation and laws to fit the current economic environment and agenda.

    There are literally dozens of entitlement programs available that people believe are their unbreakable, constitutional rights. Section 8 vouchers to Mortgage Interest Deduction – all these programs exists because they have not been legislated away. They can be if the majority decides to do so. It has and will continue to happen Pumpkin

  104. Liquor Luge says:

    Punk (103)-

    News flash: it’s ok for the gubmint to steal.

    “The govt stole from the workers by not contributing—another fact.”

  105. Essex says:

    92. Listen I love ya buddy, You got a little real estate empire and you pick stocks and sing like an angel. But on this pension thing. You start screwing the one profession that is supposed to be a vehicle for those who believe in the ideas of education and you start completely (for no good reason) eviscerating the middle class.

  106. The Great Pumpkin says:

    If you forced cops to go to 65, people will just complain that old men should retire instead of collecting a six figure job. Let them leave and open up some jobs for people at the bottom.

    phoenix says:
    May 12, 2015 at 12:33 pm
    Never understood why police retire at such a young age. Yeah maybe not walk the beat or go on swat raids, but can’t they still dust for fingerprints, take reports, look for missing children? You would think with all of that experience (what others brag about in most careers) that they would not be washed up like an old dishrag at 50. What happens to the “street smarts” and the connection to the community when they go? Pilots get to go to 65 before retiring.

  107. Essex says:

    Once again. Employees contribute to a plan. That plan is “funded”.
    Executive branch of state government in NJ takes funds from the account.
    New governor reforms system and agrees to rebuild looted accounts.
    Defaults on agreement.

    Doh!

  108. joyce says:

    You forgot the first step Essex… the govt robs everyone else.

  109. The Great Pumpkin says:

    If only people could understand this. Please, just for once, look at the big picture and understand what you are advocating for when you want to eliminate the pension and lower pay. These decisions will have major impacts on the society you live in. If you think education is bad now, imagine if you had teachers topping out at 70,000 with no pension and lousy benefits. Going to get some real attractive candidates, let me tell you. Better yet, you are going to have a major problem finding teachers. Who the hell is going to go to college, build up debt, to work at a job with no pension, lousy benefits, and tops out at 70,000-100,000. You will find no one!!!!!!! If you do find someone, they will have some major issues to take on a job with this kind of crappy compensation in a high cost state.

    Essex says:
    May 12, 2015 at 12:40 pm
    92. Listen I love ya buddy, You got a little real estate empire and you pick stocks and sing like an angel. But on this pension thing. You start screwing the one profession that is supposed to be a vehicle for those who believe in the ideas of education and you start completely (for no good reason) eviscerating the middle class.

  110. Xolepa says:

    None of the above. At least she didn’t go to Brandeis. They’re all Judges there.

  111. joyce says:

    the 7th grade little girl is back with all her exclamation points

  112. joyce says:

    NJ median household income just happens to be $70k

    Median means half above, half below

  113. homeboken says:

    “The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 12, 2015 at 12:40 pm
    If you forced cops to go to 65, people will just complain that old men should retire instead of collecting a six figure job. Let them leave and open up some jobs for people at the bottom.”

    Perfect – We agree then – The retired cop can collect his/her pension only if they are truly retired and not collecting any other salary? If they don’t really leave the workforce and open up some jobs for people at the bottom then they are still working and should delay collection of that pension right?

    As for your earlier response regarding Wall St bail-out’s and banks – I can’t even begin to imagine how you connected my original post to that conclusion but it must have taken some serious mental gymnastics so I am just going to say that I never discussed any bail outs if you think I implied approval of that action then that’s another topic of discussion.

  114. The Great Pumpkin says:

    You didn’t mention anything. I was just making a point. People will not bail out middle class workers, but will bail out the elite. Same problem with people that knock down welfare for the poor, but have no problem with welfare for the rich.

    “As for your earlier response regarding Wall St bail-out’s and banks – I can’t even begin to imagine how you connected my original post to that conclusion but it must have taken some serious mental gymnastics so I am just going to say that I never discussed any bail outs if you think I implied approval of that action then that’s another topic of discussion.”

  115. chicagofinance says:

    Old Age Home (JJ Edition):
    NORRISTOWN, Pa. — Authorities say a man living in a suburban Philadelphia assisted living facility has lost his housing subsidy after officials found a prostitute underneath his bed.
    Uri Monson tells The Intelligencer in Doylestown the man, believed to be in his 70s, paid prostitutes using profits earned from peddling alcohol to fellow residents.
    Monson says the man was a “more mobile gentleman” who went on booze runs for his neighbors.
    The incident was reported Thursday after county commissioners authorized contract extensions with private facilities housing former residents of the closed county-owned assisted living facility.
    The county paid more than $1 million to subsidize assisted living care for 21 seniors last year.

  116. chicagofinance says:

    legit 117 posts by 2PM today……

  117. homeboken says:

    RE 116 – What about the retired cop example. Let’s use an example of say a Sgt. in the Mt. Olive police force. He retires after 25 years on the force, likely at the highest salary rung of $140k + overtime + sick time + vacation accrual. He begins collecting his pension at age 55. He collects 90k per year for 20 years + subsidized health care for life. That brings his payout to $1,800,000 (excluding health care costs) – assume he paid 8.5% of his highest salary for all 25 years he worked (which he did not). In this case, he contributed less than 20% of the amount he will take out of the pension system that he thinks he “funded”. How is that model sustainable?

    Now – Mt. Olive NJ has a 47 member active police force, costing over $4.5mm in salary alone, before benefits. 32 officers make more than $100k per year.

    For facts – Mt. Olive NJ had 11 violent crimes committed in 2012, with 11 projected for 2015. Eleven!

    Multiply this one town example across every small town police force and public employee pension contributor/reciepient across the state and you begin to see the enormity of the problem.

    If we put aside all the political decisions of the past and deal only with the current state of the state – the public pension model is not sustainable.

  118. jcer says:

    111, you are sorely unaware of the true state of the job market. I can find college educated people in NNJ who will work for 65k per year with crap benefits and a 10 hr work day. There will not be a problem hiring public employees, what needs to happen is a replacement of the pension with a defined benefits program, a contribution to each workers retirement account and no guarantees. Private schools have no issue hiring more qualified teachers at lower salaries than public schools, without gold plated benefits.

  119. NJT says:

    CNDP – What’s your favorite drink? You got a bottle (within reason, no King Louie).

    Got it lowered to Failure to obey traffic control devices. $78 fine. No loss of license, no points. PA court is WEIRD! So informal. I was prepared to do battle (the best I could be) against…a legal onslaught. Instead it was ‘let’s make a deal’. Oh, OK the lowest amount. Still, IMO a ‘shakedown’ but…I still have a clean record.

    Afterwards the Trooper told me he wouldn’t have pulled me over if other Troopers hadn’t been there.

    BTW – They did have me on video for failing to move left (Troopers had cameras on a bridge over the highway).

    Thanks. Contact Grim re: sending you something. I insist.

  120. anon (the good one) says:

    @SenSanders:

    Why is it that millions of Americans are working longer hours for lower wages while a handful of billionaires do unbelievably well?

  121. anon (the good one) says:

    @billmaher:
    Unemployment down to 5.4 – wow.
    They say there are openings at the Baltimore PD, but its backbreaking work.

  122. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [123] a-none

    The Twit is, once again, timely with his snark as it tees up a response I had planned to make.

    I can’t recall if the question was posed here or elsewhere (if it was, please indulge me), but it was something to the effect of why do black communities have so many white cops?

    My answer: Because black cops don’t have to work there.

    Consider this from the DOJ’s Community Oriented Policing annual report:

    “While candidate quality was still noted as a challenge, simply finding the minority applicants with an interest in law enforcement seemed to be the greatest challenge. Furthermore, given the limited number of minority applicants, competition was also listed as a common challenge: “Just getting minority applicants to apply. Every agency is trying to lure minority applicants, so we are competing against each other.”

    Many municipalities that need to fill affirmative action slots look to other police departments and the losers are primarily poor, democratic cities. Police, particularly sought-after minorities, are leaving places like Detroit in droves.

    http://www.wbur.org/npr/333593365/other-cities-poach-police-from-detroits-low-wage-force

  123. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [121] NJT

    Much appreciated but why don’t you ring Grim’s cash register for me. I owe him that so it kills two birds. Besides, collecting is a hassle. I still owe someone on this board (Pain?) a six-pack.

    Sounds like it was a sting op. I would have challenged it on the basis of there being a nonexistent emergency so there could not have been first responders. Not likely to succeed and would have gotten same result.

  124. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [99] Luge,

    If he needs housing in Meffa or Slummerville, let me know. I can get him hooked up with apts.

  125. Libturd in the City says:

    I’m done arguing with Blumpy. For the record, I did not support the bailouts nor do I support gross executive compensation for that matter. I fight with people every day who will continue to pull the levers for the clowns in both parties who continue to enable this. If enough people voted for the guy I did, positive change would actually occur. But the world is filled with crumb suckers, like A-none and Blumpy. Nothings going to change until people wise up to the math (Thanks Homeboken) and stop swallowing the bait that both parties continue to force feed their bases in an attempt to maintain their (and ours) status quo.

  126. D-FENS says:

    Senate deals stinging defeat to Obama trade agenda

    http://thehill.com/policy/finance/241780-senate-deals-stinging-defeat-to-obama-trade-agenda

    By Alexander Bolton – 05/12/15 02:50 PM EDT
    Senate Democrats on Tuesday delivered a stinging blow to President Obama’s trade agenda by voting to prevent the chamber from picking up fast-track legislation.

    A motion to cut off a filibuster and proceed to the trade bill fell short of a 60-vote hurdle in the 52-45 vote. Sen. Tom Carper (Del.) was the only Democrat to back it.

    Senate GOP Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) switched his vote from yes to no to reserve his ability to return to the measure at a later date.

    Fast-track is a top legislative priority for the White House, but it has run into significant Senate opposition that has been led by Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.).
    It faces even more opposition from Democrats in the House, and the surprise Senate failure will raise doubts about whether the legislation will make its way through Congress.

    Labor unions and other left-leaning groups have declared war on the fast-track bill, which they argue has shipped jobs overseas. The Senate is generally a more pro-trade body than the House, and it has been easier to move trade agreements through the upper chamber.

    The standoff Tuesday focused on procedure, though there is significant opposition to fast-track itself in the Democratic conference.

  127. D-FENS says:

    Knife Rights, the new front on the fight for the 2nd amendment….

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/05/11/knife-rights-movement-gets-switchblades-other-knife-laws-repealed-in-states/

    Once overshadowed by the hot-button gun rights debate, laws restricting knife sales and possession are the new “second front” in the battle to preserve Second Amendment rights.

    The issue has gained more attention in recent years — most recently in Baltimore, where obscure knife laws have surfaced at the center of the Freddie Gray death case. Well before that case, though, the nonprofit advocacy group Knife Rights has been steadily working in state capitals across the country to roll back or repeal longstanding knife bans and restrictions.

  128. homeboken says:

    I love this Mt. Olive cop example –

    The 47 cops in Mt. Olive that make over $4.5 in salaries alone each year to police the 11 violent crimes also deal with approximate 270 total crimes that are reported each year.

    So the Sgt. that makes $115k per year has to handle his share of that enormous workload, he has to cover some sort of crime activity at least once every 2 months. Clearly he needs to retire after putting his life on the line day-in-and-out in dangerous Mt. Olive.

    Wonder what the residents of Mt. Olive think of this cost? Afterall – they are paying over $4,200 per household per year for this protection, or another way, over $1,600 annually for every man, woman and child to sleep safely under the protection of this police force.

  129. homeboken says:

    Whoops – edit a zero. $4,200 = $420, $1,600 = $160

    The best stat is the police salaries total 4.5mm. 270 crimes equates to a minimum cost of $16,666 per reported crime incident. Efficiency!

  130. nwnj says:

    Lots of junkies in MO, that’s about it.

  131. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [119] boken

    “Now – Mt. Olive NJ has a 47 member active police force, costing over $4.5mm in salary alone, before benefits. 32 officers make more than $100k per year.

    For facts – Mt. Olive NJ had 11 violent crimes committed in 2012, with 11 projected for 2015. Eleven!

    Multiply this one town example across every small town police force and public employee pension contributor/recipient across the state and you begin to see the enormity of the problem.”

    PJ O’Rourke once wrote about his town in NH and the fact that its police department cost more (by a wide margin) than all the crime that had occurred in the town. Out here in ChesCo, many towns have no police. And very little crime. What we do have is a homogeneous population. And guns. Lots of guns.

  132. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Couple problems with the math.

    First, where do you incorporate the numbers for the people who contributed, but never collected?

    Second, in your analysis, did you take into consideration that this is run like a Ponzi scheme, meaning current workers pay retirees. So guess what, as inflation rises, the payouts get lowered, while at the same time, the current workers contribute more by rising salaries. This means, if someone is retired for 20 years, chances are their pension check isn’t worth what it used to be. Even if inflation is 1% a year, that pension is worth 20% less than 20 years ago.

    Maybe you should volunteer to give up your social security once you collect more than you put in. Pension and ss are based on similar systems. So attack the pension system, but don’t forget to attack social security. It works on the same principles. Some people pay and never get to collect. Some get to collect far more than they put in.

    homeboken says:
    May 12, 2015 at 1:58 pm
    RE 116 – What about the retired cop example. Let’s use an example of say a Sgt. in the Mt. Olive police force. He retires after 25 years on the force, likely at the highest salary rung of $140k + overtime + sick time + vacation accrual. He begins collecting his pension at age 55. He collects 90k per year for 20 years + subsidized health care for life. That brings his payout to $1,800,000 (excluding health care costs) – assume he paid 8.5% of his highest salary for all 25 years he worked (which he did not). In this case, he contributed less than 20% of the amount he will take out of the pension system that he thinks he “funded”. How is that model sustainable?

    Now – Mt. Olive NJ has a 47 member active police force, costing over $4.5mm in salary alone, before benefits. 32 officers make more than $100k per year.

    For facts – Mt. Olive NJ had 11 violent crimes committed in 2012, with 11 projected for 2015. Eleven!

    Multiply this one town example across every small town police force and public employee pension contributor/reciepient across the state and you begin to see the enormity of the problem.

    If we put aside all the political decisions of the past and deal only with the current state of the state – the public pension model is not sustainable.

  133. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Do your stats show how having a police force patrolling automatically lowers crime rate. Take away all the officers and only have one cop on active duty. Save a lot of money in taxes, but getting robbed 10 times more by the crooks who have no cops to worry about. Hope you have a gun.

    homeboken says:
    May 12, 2015 at 3:32 pm
    I love this Mt. Olive cop example –

    The 47 cops in Mt. Olive that make over $4.5 in salaries alone each year to police the 11 violent crimes also deal with approximate 270 total crimes that are reported each year.

    So the Sgt. that makes $115k per year has to handle his share of that enormous workload, he has to cover some sort of crime activity at least once every 2 months. Clearly he needs to retire after putting his life on the line day-in-and-out in dangerous Mt. Olive.

    Wonder what the residents of Mt. Olive think of this cost? Afterall – they are paying over $4,200 per household per year for this protection, or another way, over $1,600 annually for every man, woman and child to sleep safely under the protection of this police force.

  134. homeboken says:

    “Maybe you should volunteer to give up your social security once you collect more than you put in. ”

    I accept. I will promise to never claim a single dollar of SS benefit, so long as I never have to make any further contributions to the SS system. Is it too much to ask that I get refunded the money that I paid in Life-To-Date?

    I will sign up for this today. Let me know where.

  135. The Great Pumpkin says:

    You can find a qualified candidate to do a ceo’s job for 50% less. Doesn’t mean we do, so what’s your point? You can apply this to any job. You can lower pay for any job, just don’t be pissed with the results when the lowered payed worker stops caring about the job they do. Now apply this to teaching, you want the individual teaching our kids to be stuck in a pathetic job? You think this will be good for society? Lower it and you might not like what you get.

    If you are college educated, working for 65k per year with crap benefits, and a 10 hour day….I feel bad for you. That sucks.

    jcer says:
    May 12, 2015 at 1:59 pm
    111, you are sorely unaware of the true state of the job market. I can find college educated people in NNJ who will work for 65k per year with crap benefits and a 10 hr work day. There will not be a problem hiring public employees, what needs to happen is a replacement of the pension with a defined benefits program, a contribution to each workers retirement account and no guarantees. Private schools have no issue hiring more qualified teachers at lower salaries than public schools, without gold plated benefits.

  136. Juice Box says:

    AOL sells for 11 times earnings it must be market peak.

  137. The Great Pumpkin says:

    I’m sure the cops would like to get back 8.5% of their salary and invest that, along with the govt contribution (say 4%-5%) in their own fund. That’s about 13% of their salary getting put into their own 401k. Only problem, what do you do with current retires, genius? How do they survive?

    homeboken says:
    May 12, 2015 at 4:36 pm
    “Maybe you should volunteer to give up your social security once you collect more than you put in. ”

    I accept. I will promise to never claim a single dollar of SS benefit, so long as I never have to make any further contributions to the SS system. Is it too much to ask that I get refunded the money that I paid in Life-To-Date?

    I will sign up for this today. Let me know where.

  138. Ragnar says:

    Homeboken:
    I’ll take this deal per person:
    $1600 for police protection +
    $200 for state & local courts +
    $2600 for federal national defense +
    $200 for presidential & congressional & supreme court salaries
    End or privatize everything else the government currently does.
    Total national government spending per person = $4,600, restricted to only legit activities of protecting individual rights.
    Compare that to the current Federal/State/Local spending of $19,500 per person
    ($6.2 trillion / 319mn people).
    Imagine how the US economy would surge if $15,000 per person of spending was redirected to the discretion of private individuals rather than an inefficient, ever-expanding state.

  139. joyce says:

    So the govt makes illegal the means to which individuals can better/best protect themselves. Then they stick their own guns in your face and charge you exorbitant rates for protection (crappy service that it is) … sounds fair. And some defend this.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 12, 2015 at 4:27 pm
    Do your stats show how having a police force patrolling automatically lowers crime rate. Take away all the officers and only have one cop on active duty. Save a lot of money in taxes, but getting robbed 10 times more by the crooks who have no cops to worry about. Hope you have a gun.

  140. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Rags, if this happened, this govt would have been through a revolution/civil war. We are at outrageous levels of income inequality. Take away the welfare system and this shit goes up in smoke. Economy will tank over night under these conditions.

    Ragnar says:
    May 12, 2015 at 4:44 pm
    Homeboken:
    I’ll take this deal per person:
    $1600 for police protection +
    $200 for state & local courts +
    $2600 for federal national defense +
    $200 for presidential & congressional & supreme court salaries
    End or privatize everything else the government currently does.
    Total national government spending per person = $4,600, restricted to only legit activities of protecting individual rights.
    Compare that to the current Federal/State/Local spending of $19,500 per person
    ($6.2 trillion / 319mn people).
    Imagine how the US economy would surge if $15,000 per person of spending was redirected to the discretion of private individuals rather than an inefficient, ever-expanding state.

  141. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Why don’t you understand that people need good paying jobs. How come your mighty private sector gods (the rich CEOs) are not creating good jobs? Why? They are richer than anytime in the past 50 years, so where the hell are the good jobs they claim to make. I hear all the time that the rich are the job creators and to give them a tax break so they can create jobs?

    Well, where are they? We have the lowest tax rate in the past 100 years. There are more millionaires and billionaires than ever before. So where the hell are the jobs? Where is the demand in the economy? I thought once we have these conditions, the glorious job creators would be pumping out jobs. Why hasn’t this happened? How come income inequality continues to grow under these conditions? Anyone that busts my balls and calls me an idiot, please give me an answer to my questions.

  142. homeboken says:

    ” Only problem, what do you do with current retires, genius? How do they survive?”

    What do you mean? I thought I answered the question about me and my social security? You offered me the option to exit the ponzi, and then get mad when I choose to exercise the option you offered me? Are you sure you aren’t the genius?

    And I am not asking for 8.5% plus gov’t match back. I just don’t want to contribute anymore, like you offered.

    And by the way – As stated by others, you are dead wrong on the income requirements for middle class workers in this state. A teacher or cop making 70-80k is just fine and will attract a perfectly reasonably skilled employee. Becoming a teacher or cop was never a path to wealth and riches. But a teacher making 70k married to a cop making 80k for a combined household income of $150k is double the median household income in the state of NJ. That’s called solidly-middle class to upper middle class.

  143. leftwing says:

    @SenSanders
    “Why is it that millions of Americans are working longer hours for lower wages while a handful of billionaires do unbelievably well?”

    Hmmm….uhmm….that’s a tough one riddler…..let me take a stab…

    Maybe, just maybe, because the billionaires are, hold on to your hats now…….BILLIONAIRES!

    Idiot.

    Fed STL says gross aggregate wages in the US are $7.6634 trillion
    Fed STL says total working age population in the US is 204,142,686.141 (go figure).

    I’m going to sleep. Wake me when you can tell me where to go to pick up my $37,539 annual income inequality elimation paycheck with the other 204 million schmucks.

  144. joyce says:

    I thought we were all in agreement that welfare, as your claiming below, was really welfare for Walmart and the like…. so let’s end it.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 12, 2015 at 4:48 pm
    Rags, if this happened, this govt would have been through a revolution/civil war. We are at outrageous levels of income inequality. Take away the welfare system and this shit goes up in smoke. Economy will tank over night under these conditions.

  145. joyce says:

    Ragnar and a couple others have answered your question. If you need more detail, look at Greenspan, Bernanke, Yellen and the govt supported bankster policies.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 12, 2015 at 4:55 pm

    How come income inequality continues to grow under these conditions? Anyone that busts my balls and calls me an idiot, please give me an answer to my questions.

  146. leftwing says:

    ‘Boken on fire today!!

    “The best stat is the police salaries total 4.5mm. 270 crimes equates to a minimum cost of $16,666 per reported crime incident. Efficiency!”

    Ripe for outsourcing. Call Chester PD, tell them for each Mt Olive crime call you’ll pay them $10k. Be generous, 80% goes to Chester PD, 20% directly to the Chester officer. Note I specifically did not say merge the two departments.

    “I accept. I will promise to never claim a single dollar of SS benefit, so long as I never have to make any further contributions to the SS system. Is it too much to ask that I get refunded the money that I paid in Life-To-Date?”

    I accept too. And I am already on record with this board that I will voluntarily remove my residence from local fire department coverage. If my house burns, don’t put it out, don’t come in for a rescue. I will even take the higher insurance rates that follow. Provided, however, I don’t have to fund FD and firefighter retiree costs.

    A la carte public services for all! Hey Bernie, how long ya think that would last without those wealthy you disparage?

  147. Ragnar says:

    Pumpkin doesn’t like the correct answer. He’s waiting for an answer that involves mandating high paying jobs for semi-skilled labor working for a Swedish auto brand that was purchased with government subsidized credit by a second-rate Chinese carmaker.

  148. jcer says:

    138, Pumpkin I make way more than that but I am saying I have hired people for that kind of money. My father has hired Lawyers as a legal assistant for 75k as recently as 6 months ago. Unless you are a really good performer with valued experience and training in an in demand field, wages are very depressed by offshore labor. That is the “Recovery” we live in, Eddie is not wrong the vast majority of regular folks have a lot of wage pressure. Now there are quite a few people who possess very in demand skills and can get very nice salaries but for your average unskilled college graduate with no specialized training…..good luck. The current state of government employees is a gimmick and a political trick….kick the can…..it’s someone else’s problem and I’ve gotten the union vote and didn’t have to raise taxes.

  149. jcer says:

    The whole police thing is really out of control. You make over 100k per year in suburbia, but in Newark or Jersey City 40k per year and you could get shot, but no shortage of applicants. There goes Pumpkin’s argument about wages and I would argue the cheap JC cops are better than the suburban cops.

  150. leftwing says:

    And Pumpkin still stumbling around in the dark….

    “You can find a qualified candidate to do a ceo’s job for 50% less. Doesn’t mean we do, so what’s your point? You can apply this to any job.”

    Major difference. The salary and retirement costs of every public official is extracted from me under threat of imprisonment if I don’t pay. If I don’t like the CEOs salary I sell his stock or boycott his products. I don’t have to support his comp.

    “We are at outrageous levels of income inequality. Take away the welfare system and this shit goes up in smoke. Economy will tank over night under these conditions.”

    Einstein, you do realize this statement can only be made with the embedded assumption that part of the population (the vilified wealthy) are supporting the underclass through transfer payments? You understand the implication of what you are saying relative to your other positions, no? (ie, do away with the wealthy, where are all those transfer payments coming from?)

  151. The Great Pumpkin says:

    City cops get cash money. They don’t get payed enough, so the outcome is extortion of the poor. Just imagine how much they pocket in a drug raid. Bribes from dealers and so on. I’m not a fan of cops and their salaries(check out how much Wayne gets paid), but if you payed them like crap, they would have no ethics and would be in on robbery schemes to rob the rich in their town. They know the town well and will know when people are home or when they vacation. Right now, their salary and pension keep them honest.

    jcer says:
    May 12, 2015 at 5:35 pm
    The whole police thing is really out of control. You make over 100k per year in suburbia, but in Newark or Jersey City 40k per year and you could get shot, but no shortage of applicants. There goes Pumpkin’s argument about wages and I would argue the cheap JC cops are better than the suburban cops.

  152. leftwing says:

    One more response to the Pumpkin. I’ll keep it simple for him.

    “Why don’t you understand that people need good paying jobs.”

    Since when does your need create my obligation?

  153. The Great Pumpkin says:

    So that’s how some ceo’s are given insane bonuses after driving the company into the ground. Don’t think for a second there isn’t someone in India or China that could do that ceo’s job for 90% less. What prevents ceo’s from being replaced by cheap labor….oh yea, I forgot, the same rules don’t apply.

    Nom, do you realize that your job is protected by the govt. You don’t have to deal with cheap labor, the govt requires you to have their stamp of approval to practice law. Whole labor market is a joke. How about we talk about that?

    leftwing says:
    May 12, 2015 at 5:37 pm
    And Pumpkin still stumbling around in the dark….

    “You can find a qualified candidate to do a ceo’s job for 50% less. Doesn’t mean we do, so what’s your point? You can apply this to any job.”

    Major difference. The salary and retirement costs of every public official is extracted from me under threat of imprisonment if I don’t pay. If I don’t like the CEOs salary I sell his stock or boycott his products. I don’t have to support his comp.

  154. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    I was just telling my oldest what college was like at Rutgers. Sell your plasma to make gas and beer money. Take the car down to Atlantic City to count cards in BlackJack and win more gas and beer money. Drive to Glassboro State for big parties and FREE beer. Watch p0rn projected on the side of a dorm after the parties were over. Drive back to Rutgers. I never did that, but I heard that some guys did.

  155. Ragnar says:

    Pumpkin,
    More Dunning-Kruger effect* from you today.
    I suggest that you go find a discount priced Chinese CEO to take over your firm and find out how that works out for your bizarre “spur the economy by overpaying the common man” theory.

    Guess what – Chinese and Indian CEOs also get paid dramatically more than their cheapest employees. Some may make more or less than US CEOs, and in general, I’d say the quality of Chinese and Indian CEOs is generally far lower for public companies than in the US. Many are conflicted, arrogant assholes that run their companies into the ground. How about ask the French steel union guys how they’ve liked having Lakshmi Mittal as CEO, buying his $130mn London house? No CEO discount from him.

    *Dunning and Kruger proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:
    fail to recognize their own lack of skill
    fail to recognize genuine skill in others
    fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy

  156. anon (the good one) says:

    Ragnar is a fundamentalist and therefore his answers have no value

    joyce says:
    May 12, 2015 at 5:05 pm
    Ragnar and a couple others have answered your question. If you need more detail, look at Greenspan, Bernanke, Yellen and the govt supported bankster policies.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 12, 2015 at 4:55 pm

    How come income inequality continues to grow under these conditions? Anyone that busts my balls and calls me an idiot, please give me an answer to my questions.

  157. Ragnar says:

    leftwing,
    Bingo.
    Pumpkin cannot explain why someone’s need justifies expropriation. Here’s an analysis who cracked this moral code years ago:

    Why is it moral to serve the happiness of others, but not your own? If enjoyment is a value, why is it moral when experienced by others, but immoral when experienced by you? If the sensation of eating a cake is a value, why is it an immoral indulgence in your stomach, but a moral goal for you to achieve in the stomach of others? Why is it immoral for you to desire, but moral for others to do so? Why is it immoral to produce a value and keep it, but moral to give it away? And if it is not moral for you to keep a value, why is it moral for others to accept it? If you are selfless and virtuous when you give it, are they not selfish and vicious when they take it? Does virtue consist of serving vice? Is the moral purpose of those who are good, self-immolation for the sake of those who are evil?

    The answer you evade, the monstrous answer is: No, the takers are not evil, provided they did not earn the value you gave them. It is not immoral for them to accept it, provided they are unable to produce it, unable to deserve it, unable to give you any value in return. It is not immoral for them to enjoy it, provided they do not obtain it by right.

    Such is the secret core of your creed, the other half of your double standard: it is immoral to live by your own effort, but moral to live by the effort of others—it is immoral to consume your own product, but moral to consume the products of others—it is immoral to earn, but moral to mooch—it is the parasites who are the moral justification for the existence of the producers, but the existence of the parasites is an end in itself—it is evil to profit by achievement, but good to profit by sacrifice—it is evil to create your own happiness, but good to enjoy it at the price of the blood of others.

    Your code divides mankind into two castes and commands them to live by opposite rules: those who may desire anything and those who may desire nothing, the chosen and the damned, the riders and the carriers, the eaters and the eaten. What standard determines your caste? What passkey admits you to the moral elite? The passkey is lack of value.

    Whatever the value involved, it is your lack of it that gives you a claim upon those who don’t lack it. It is your need that gives you a claim to rewards. If you are able to satisfy your need, your ability annuls your right to satisfy it. But a need you are unable to satisfy gives you first right to the lives of mankind.

    If you succeed, any man who fails is your master; if you fail, any man who succeeds is your serf. Whether your failure is just or not, whether your wishes are rational or not, whether your misfortune is undeserved or the result of your vices, it is misfortune that gives you a right to rewards. It is pain, regardless of its nature or cause, pain as a primary absolute, that gives you a mortgage on all of existence.

  158. anon (the good one) says:

    @davidfrum:
    Jeb Bush has just converted an election that should be about the past eight years into an election about the eight years before that

    @jonleeanderson:
    Unavoidable. His brother’s a pariah & been tiptoeing around x years hoping nobody wd notice him.Those days are over.

  159. D-FENS says:

    @Bidenshairplugs: The Guggenheim is racist for not allowing black teens to run amok.

    http://t.co/ybZMNquxLN

  160. anon (the good one) says:

    @TIME:
    Jeb Bush: I would have authorized the Iraq war

  161. joyce says:

    You are retarded.

    anon (the good one) says:
    May 12, 2015 at 6:43 pm
    Ragnar is a fundamentalist and therefore his answers have no value

  162. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    njretardreport.com

  163. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Why can’t certain individuals grasp this. I’m not attacking the wealthy. I’m not trying to eliminate the wealthy. All I’m trying to do is to get you to see what is wrong with the economy. There is too much money stuck at the top in far too few hands leading to a lack of demand in the economy. Giving jobs and raises solves this problem, but let the billionaires keep all their money and some. As the author states below, “it’s a problem that will eventually affect everyone’s bottom line, rich and poor”.

    Why can’t you guys realize this? If I can change one person’s mind into opening their mind and understanding its not an attack on the rich. The only thing being attacked is the problems with the economy.

    “The U.S. economy continues to be stuck in a slow, volatile recovery. Lack of consumer demand driven by stagnant or falling wages, and decreased opportunity for many Americans, is what many economists believe is behind the paltry growth. Given that 70% of the U.S. economy is driven by consumer demand, it’s a problem that will eventually affect everyone’s bottom line, rich and poor.

    How to fix it? We need to think harder about narrowing the gap between those at the bottom and the top. If most people, especially lower-income individuals and minorities, keep the bulk of their wealth in housing, we should rethink lending practices and allow for a broader range of credit metrics (which tend to be biased toward whites) and lower down payments for good borrowers. Rethinking our retirement policies is crucial too. Retirement incentives work mainly for whites and the rich. Minority and poor households are less likely to have access to workplace retirement plans, in part because many work in less formal sectors like restaurants and child care. Another overdue fix: we should expand Social Security by lifting the cap on payroll taxes so the rich can contribute the same share of their income as everyone else.

    Doing both would be a good first step. But going forward, economic and racial fairness can no longer be thought of as separate issues.”

    http://time.com/3849943/americas-broken-ladder/

  164. The Great Pumpkin says:

    167-

    “One thing is clear after the tragic death of Freddie Gray, the young African-American man who was fatally injured while in police custody in Baltimore last month: we cannot fix the problems of economic justice in this country without addressing racial justice. The deck is stacked against low-income Americans–African Americans and Latinos in particular. As a newly released report from a pair of Harvard academics has found, just being born in a poor part of Baltimore–or Atlanta, Chicago, L.A., New York City or any number of other urban areas–virtually ensures that you’ll never make it up the socioeconomic ladder. Boys from low-income households who grow up in the kind of beleaguered, mostly minority neighborhoods like the one Gray was from will earn roughly 25% less than peers who moved to better neighborhoods as children. So much for the American Dream.

    This has big implications. Income inequality is shaping up to be the key economic issue of the 2016 campaign. If you have any doubt, consider that both Hillary Clinton and Marco Rubio, who declared their candidacies in the past few weeks, are already staking out positions. Clinton billed herself as the candidate for the “everyday American,” calling for higher wages and criticizing bloated CEO salaries. Meanwhile, Rubio said he wants the Republican Party–which, he said, is portrayed unfairly as “a party that doesn’t care about people who are trying to make it”–to remake itself into “the champion of the working class.””

  165. D-FENS says:

    Get those big bad rich people! Get them! Make them give us some of their money! If the don’t give us more of their money it’s unfair! Send in the men with guns to put them in cages!

  166. Wily Millenial says:

    America could end poverty and all its attendant suffering immediately if the political will existed to significantly redistribute income. Since we haven’t done it, it’s pretty crass to talk about morals when you could ask “who benefits from perpetuating the status quo?” Instead we spend 1000 years convincing ourselvves poor people ‘deserve’ it for one reason or another, must be totally out of our control.

  167. D-FENS says:

    It’s amazing to me how many people think that voting to have the government give poor people money is compassion. Helping poor and suffering people yourself is compassion. Voting for our government to use guns to give money to help poor and suffering people is immoral, self-righteous, bullying laziness.

    -Penn Jillette

  168. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Well if the powers that be wanted to create jobs, they would. For some reason, they like supporting the poor through welfare.

    D-FENS says:
    May 12, 2015 at 9:03 pm
    It’s amazing to me how many people think that voting to have the government give poor people money is compassion. Helping poor and suffering people yourself is compassion. Voting for our government to use guns to give money to help poor and suffering people is immoral, self-righteous, bullying laziness.

    -Penn Jillette

  169. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Yup.

    Wily Millenial says:
    May 12, 2015 at 9:03 pm
    America could end poverty and all its attendant suffering immediately if the political will existed to significantly redistribute income. Since we haven’t done it, it’s pretty crass to talk about morals when you could ask “who benefits from perpetuating the status quo?” Instead we spend 1000 years convincing ourselvves poor people ‘deserve’ it for one reason or another, must be totally out of our control.

  170. Libturd at home says:

    “political will” What the hell is that? There is no such thing as political will. Policies are determined by the highest bidder. This is why the banksters were bailed while the middle class flailed. It’s also why the income gap is so great and will only continue to grow. Just think how easy it would be to ratchet AMT to inflation for example. Or to tax investment gains like income derived from labor and tax income from labor like dividend income. So simple, yet it will never happen. Because the morons who follow politics for sport actually believe they are being represented. A-none calling Rags a fundamentalist was rich. The only real fundamentalist here is A-none himself, for he buys every base-catering policy by his heros, hook, line and sinker.

  171. Fabius Maximus says:

    #18 Lib
    “Flabicus Maximus” yawn, another personal attack.

    Did a post of yours disappear here today? I came back and can’t seem to find it. Something about people unemployed two years.

  172. Fabius Maximus says:

    What BS.
    Here’s the problem with CC and the expenses. I’m all for the GVNR having an expense account, to wine and dine prospective investors to NJ. I do have a problem funding a presidential run or a GOP fundraising . How many times have we seen “the left” raise issues on expenses only to have he NJ Repub party, the Repub GVNRs association or even Jerry Jones step in to pick up the tab.
    CC has been an abject failure. He fell into the job when he should have lost and he’s making gravy. In his first year he had his big Austerity budget, He cut from 30Bn to 28Bn (on the back of the pension contribution, and then it was straight up to 32Bn

  173. Fabius Maximus says:

    Pensions are not a NJ only issue. All states have them. There are a lot of factors missing in this discussion. Yes, the system is tied to the stock market returns, which for the most part have delivered in the last 40 years. The issue these days stem from the CTW and subsequent leaders withholding contributions in the surplus years and mismanagement of the funds. It is not down to the people that contributed.
    Stu, if you want the public pension so much step to the plate and get a public sector job. From what I’ve seen its not worth it. I can do better with my degree in the private sector. Even my private sector pension, (yes I will get one from a previous employer) should pay me a lot more than I have put in in the first two to three years of collection.
    If you want to solve the pension problem in NJ, three changes. If you retire and take a pension eligible job, you unretire and continue to pay into the system. If you retire out of state, 10% surcharge for out of state medical. Make it like SS. you can earn say $15K and then every dollar after that comes off the pension.

  174. Fabius Maximus says:

    #127 Lib
    “If enough people voted for the guy I did, positive change would actually occur.
    Who and Why? step to the plate and defend.

  175. Fabius Maximus says:

    #135 leftwing
    “Why don’t you understand that people need good paying jobs.
    Since when does your need create my obligation?”
    And that is why you have no clue what the issue is. Its not your obligation, but it is your issue.

  176. Fabius Maximus says:

    #164 Joyce / #165 ExPat

    Please don’t use that word in here.

  177. Libtard in bed says:

    ““Flabicus Maximus” yawn, another personal attack.”

    That’s some thin skin you got there.

    I nearly always vote the way Montgomery Brewster suggested. I stand by my convictions.

    Gator tried in earnest to find government jobs, but if you are not related/connected to someone on the inside, you are not getting one. The other issue was that she was overqualified, although she always clearly stated that she was willing to work for the listed salaries. Sadly, Essex County does not hire based on qualifications.

  178. Fabius Maximus says:

    #180 Lib

    Nah, thick skinned, its more a reflection on you than it is on me.

    So how is Essex Co or the others, different from your industry, my industry or even Gators last job. Welcome to the world, its not what you know, its who you know. It applies everywhere.

  179. Wily Millenial says:

    > “political will” What the hell is that? There is no such thing as political will. Policies are determined by the highest bidder.

    Yeah, that seems compatible with my argument though.

    > It’s also why the income gap is so great and will only continue to grow. Just think how easy it would be to ratchet AMT to inflation for example.

    Isn’t that what they finally did in 2013?

  180. Comrade Nom Deplume, the loan snark says:

    [179] Fabian,

    “#164 Joyce / #165 ExPat

    Please don’t use that word in here.”

    Who died and made you the Epithet Gestap0?

  181. Comrade Nom Deplume, the loan snark says:

    Major Amtrak derailment in North Philly. This will fcuk up service for days, possibly more. If you’re going south, plan accordingly.

    And no JJ, I wasn’t referring to that.

  182. Fabius Maximus says:

    #183 Eddie Ray

    I think the short answer is “your morality” if you are defending the use of the word.

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