Shocking: Graduates with loans perform better than those without

From HousingWire:

TransUnion: Student loans do not impact housing

Despite the level of student loan debt rising to well above $1 trillion, young buyers are not being inhibited from obtaining a mortgage due to their debt, according to a new report from TransUnion.

According to the latest report from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, student loan debt rose $32 billion in the first quarter to $1.19 trillion total, but recent reports from Capital Economics have suggested that growing amount of student debt isn’t actually preventing millennials from buying a home.

A new report from TransUnion shows that not only are younger consumers with student debt able to get a mortgage, they are also quite adept at making their payments as well.

According to the TransUnion report, consumers between the ages of 18 and 29 with a student loan in repayment are “generally able” to gain access to new loans and perform as well or better on those new loans as similarly aged consumers without student loans.

The study also showed that in only three to six years, student-loan consumers in their twenties have been observed to pass similarly aged consumers without a student loan in overall loan participation rates on mortgages, auto loans and credit cards, an act the study calls the convergence point.

“Going to school impacts young consumers’ access to credit; while in school, students may be less likely to have a job and generate the income necessary for loan approval. However, most catch up once they leave school—and their ability to catch up has not changed over the past decade,” said Steve Chaouki, executive vice president and the head of TransUnion’s financial services business unit. “Our study demonstrates that consumers in their 20s with student loans in repayment—that is, once they finish school—are in fact able to access credit at levels similar to or better than their peers who do not have student loans.”

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178 Responses to Shocking: Graduates with loans perform better than those without

  1. grim says:

    If you don’t believe that, you can take some solace in the college bubble bursting, from Bloomberg:

    Millennials Are Ditching College and Heading Back to the Workplace

    In a sign of a stronger economy, more young adults are skipping college and heading back to work.

    College enrollment in the spring semester dropped 2 percent from the year before, to 18.6 million, according to a report being released Thursday by the nonprofit National Student Clearinghouse Research Center. The steepest drop was among students in their mid-20s and older who are re-entering the workforce. The report doesn’t examine whether students are dropping out or declining to enroll in the first place.

    Hardest hit are community colleges, as well as for-profit institutions, which are shutting down amid government accusations that they inflated the job prospects of graduates. While more working adults are shunning higher education, enrollment of traditional students who go to college fresh out of high school was unchanged.

  2. grim says:

    From MarketWatch:

    Cash home sales drop as cheap investments dry up

    As U.S. home prices rise, cash investors are slowing down their buying, cutting their share of purchases even in markets where values are still way below peak levels, according to data released Wednesday.

    Looking at the country as a whole, cash sales accounted for almost 38% of total home sales in February, down from 41% a year earlier. Cash deals hit a peak of more than 46% in early 2011, and are on track to fall to 25% by mid-2018, reaching the average share before the housing crisis, according to CoreLogic.

    U.S. home prices are still down about 8% from the bubble peak, but have grown 4% over the past year.

    But fewer cash buyers doesn’t spell doom for the housing market. Rather, there are signs that traditional home buyers are returning to the market, he said.

    “The labor market is getting better, folks are looking to take out a home loan,” Kiefer said.

    A gauge of mortgage applications to buy a home recently hit the highest level since June 2013. Further, mortgage rates are low, making it easier for families to make their monthly payments. Total sales of used homes and new single-family homes have increased about 11% over the past year.

    Still, home sales are growing slower than economists would like. Access to mortgages remains relatively strict. Along weak income growth, these barriers make it tough for families, particularly younger households and other first-time buyers, to purchase a home.

  3. D-FENS says:

    I wonder what percentage of millennials without student loan debt have college educations.

  4. nwnj says:

    #3

    Exactly, the analysis shouldn’t be have student loans vs. don’t have.

    Within the have loans group how many aren’t seeking loans because of the indebtedness?

  5. anon (the good one) says:

    @WhiteHouse:

    “I want to bring down the cost of community college for responsible students to zero.” —Obama
    #FreeCommunityCollege

  6. Walking Bye says:

    It seems like the fed is confusing needing access for new loans with getting access for new loans. I’m sure lots of millennials would rather not have to need a high interest loan to buy a used car, instead of getting a 0% interest loan for a new car. But they cant. They would not qualify for the preferred rate as their debt to income ratio is probably to high. But they spin this into a good thing. So now they graduate with student debt, get a loan on an old car, which they can repair with that high interest annual fee credit card they qualify for.

  7. The Great Pumpkin says:

    You can’t blame the govt institution as bad, you must blame the participants. A govt can not be good or bad, the participants decide that.

    “So why does lobbying worry you more?

    Because campaign financing only takes place in an election cycle. I think there’s limits to how much influence a campaign contributor can have given the limits — well, obviously, there are fewer limits than there used to be; but there still limits — but I think that the kind of full court press of lobbying that a big corporation can mount day after day, year after year is much more likely to yield benefits from the point of view of whoever’s paying for the lobbying.

    I mean back in the day, when I started to work on Capitol Hill, in the mid-1970s, there weren’t that many corporations that had Washington offices. There were a few, of course — especially in the regulated industries like Telecom. But by and large, companies were oblivious to what was going on in Washington. Now, virtually every big company has a Washington office — or at least they have some lobbying firm on retainer; and probably multiple lobbying firms because … they’ve gotten away from one size fits all lobbying into more boutique-type firms where one guy’s an expert on tax and another guy’s an expert on the S.E.C. and another firm lobbies whatever. So they spread their money around more and to people who deal and specialize in some particular issue that is of concern to them at that particular moment.

    Why is that more of a threat?

    For two reason: one is that, well, it’s created problems in the policy area. I’ll give you a good example from tax policy, there’s something you probably don’t know about called the “R&D credit.” Now the R&D credit is perfectly well-grounded in economic theory. The social value to R&D is much greater than any company can get from doing RND and so as a nation we get less R&D than we would like or that we need. There’s a good case to be made for subsidizing it to some extent. But the way the RND credit has always existed since it was put into effect whenever back in 1981 is that it’s never been permanent. It always expires and has to be renewed. Now the problem with this is that for it to work, for it to actually create additional R&D, which is its purpose, it has to be permanent. If it’s not permanent, no company is going to undertake new R&D simply because the credit is there. Because they can’t be sure when they’ve actually made the expenditures that the credit applies to, that it will be in existence. They can’t simply assume that Congress will always renew it, they can’t make that kind of judgment because often times R&D expenses will take place over a period of years and well into the future.

    Their prudent policy is going to be, Well, if we get it, we get it; if we don’t, we don’t, but it’s not going to enter into the calculation whether to undertake this R&D or not, so what happens is that it becomes a reward for what they were going to do anyway. Now the reason this helps lobbyist is because the lobbyist in the tax area will lobby to get the R&D credit renewed and then they can go to their bosses and say, Look, we helped get this enacted, it provided the company with X million dollars this year of tax savings and we deserve some credit for that and here’s who you can make the bonus checks out to. So, you see, this is just an example of how Washington lobbying has become a profit center. Because Washington offices used to be viewed as sort of like PR or something, off somewhere doing their own thing. Now that it’s much easier for them to show the specific bottom line benefits to a company of their actions then, this encourages companies to put even more money into lobbying and more money into Washington offices.

    And what’s the second reason?

    The second insidious element of this is that it has created extremely lucrative post-political opportunities for members of Congress and staff. It used to be that a member of Congress, once they were defeated or were retired, they’d go home or they would just simply literally retire and do nothing. But now, they have all these opportunities to make huge amounts of income as lobbyists. I think it’s changed the nature of being in Congress.

    When I first started working on Capitol Hill, it was sort of generally understood that a member of Congress would stay pretty much forever … and it was very common for staff people to stay on Capitol Hill for their entire careers. I think that’s very rare these days. Now, they come, they get their ticket stamped, and then they move on and become lobbyists and make a lot more money — and do a lot less work. So, I can’t prove it, but I honestly think that there are people who run for Congress now not because they actually want to be in Congress, but because they actually want to be lobbyists, and so they want that credential that allows them to get the job that they want.

    Do you think to the degree that they see the lobbying when they are no longer holding office or working on the Hill as if they’ve earned it?

    Well, yes, and not only that. I learned this from Jack Abramoff: he would go to … Congressional staffers and basically say, Look, if you do this favor for me, there’s a guaranteed job for you the day you decide to leave Capitol Hill. I don’t know if that’s literally bribery, but it certainly borders on it … This was a revelation to me, because that was never the case when I worked on Capitol Hill. But now, I think that people do understand that these options are there and it does encourage them to push the limits of what might be legally or ethically justifiable.

    Let me add a footnote to this, one of the things about lobbying that I never see anybody report on, but it is extremely insidious.

    Sure, go ahead. What is it?

    The employment of spouses and children of members of Congress [in lobbying firms]. Now this information has to be disclosed on their financial disclosure forms, but I’m not aware of anybody who collects it and analyzes it systematically. It’s very common for the wife or husband of some member of Congress to get a job at some lobbying company or some government relations office — and, frankly, a lot of times these jobs are not real jobs. These people are not being hired for their expertise. They’re hired simply to ingratiate the business with the member of Congress and to create a very opportunities for de facto lobbying through the normal, social things that go on in any business. This is very very common, I’m afraid. For some reason it just seems to be off-limits for people to complain about it.”

    http://www.salon.com/2015/05/14/utter_insanity_and_stupidity_ex_reagan_adviser_unloads_on_gop_lobbyists_and_the_myth_of_the_moderate_republican/

  8. D-FENS says:

    It won’t cost zero. Dude wanted to pay for it using my kid’s 529 college savings plan.

    anon (the good one) says:
    May 14, 2015 at 8:42 am
    @WhiteHouse:

    “I want to bring down the cost of community college for responsible students to zero.” —Obama
    #FreeCommunityCollege

  9. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Great job big biz…..great job!! Won’t pay higher taxes, but will pay lobbying firms millions to lower your taxes. Scum bags.

    “The second insidious element of this is that it has created extremely lucrative post-political opportunities for members of Congress and staff. It used to be that a member of Congress, once they were defeated or were retired, they’d go home or they would just simply literally retire and do nothing. But now, they have all these opportunities to make huge amounts of income as lobbyists. I think it’s changed the nature of being in Congress.”

  10. Ragnar says:

    If only Brandon Bostian had enough student debt to keep him focused on his job…

  11. Ragnar says:

    I’d argue that if rail service cannot be changed to operate without subsidies, then it should be ended. The right approach would be to take away the government near-monopoly on transport modes, take away the subsidies-based competition between modes, and then let private users and private operators determine the best and most efficient options for transportation services, which would create a surge of private investment in infrastructure capacity. With modern cheap, wireless technology and e-micro-payments, payment for multimodal transportation fees is easily within reach, so that users of transport could pay its true cost, and let their preferences be revealed via the marketplace. Google and/or apple both have the mapping and GPS devices and payment services to enable this, and road infrastructure owners would probably hire them to coordinate and give away smart devices to every person in the US.

  12. D-FENS says:

    Interesting…the reason Jersey has full serve gas BY LAW is not because of safety, or convenience or job creation…it’s good old fashioned Jersey corruption.

    http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2014/02/the_real_reason_self-service_gas_was_banned_in_nj_corruption_not_safety.html

  13. Ragnar says:

    Kreuger-Dunning-Pumpkin,
    I pay a combined 48% marginal federal plus state tax rate. Apparently you think that’s low. What’s your wish on how much you’d like other people to expropriate from me?

  14. joyce says:

    They are confusing, on purpose (in rhetoric only), the need to finance education with the need for education.

    They talk about access to student loans, not access to college.

    They talk about access to insurance, not access to healthcare.

    Walking Bye says:
    May 14, 2015 at 8:53 am
    It seems like the fed is confusing

  15. Ragnar says:

    D-Fens,
    It also means that it’s often difficult to find an open gas station after 9pm in NJ.
    I’ll bet we have some local NJ promoters that consider the prohibition on self-serve a feature rather than a flaw.

  16. The Great Pumpkin says:

    If people are paying what they are supposed to be paying, why the need for lobbyists? Why has lobbying grown into a billion dollar business? Please explain.

    Ragnar says:
    May 14, 2015 at 9:19 am
    Kreuger-Dunning-Pumpkin,
    I pay a combined 48% marginal federal plus state tax rate. Apparently you think that’s low. What’s your wish on how much you’d like other people to expropriate from me?

  17. D-FENS says:

    ‏@PoliticalLaughs
    Why is everything made in China? Because China’s top corporate tax rate is 25%. In the US, the corporate tax rate can be as high as 54%.

  18. Libturd in Union says:

    @WhiteHouse:

    “I have ordered the closing of the detention center at Guantanamo Bay, and will seek swift and certain justice for captured terrorists.”

    – February 2009.

  19. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Who pays 54%? Show me

    D-FENS says:
    May 14, 2015 at 9:35 am
    ‏@PoliticalLaughs
    Why is everything made in China? Because China’s top corporate tax rate is 25%. In the US, the corporate tax rate can be as high as 54%.

  20. Ragnar says:

    Politicians don’t really understand the difference between “cost” and “price”. They dream of a fantasyland where they can give away goods and services of infinite cost, for the price of only a vote (for them). It’s the job of “someone” or vaguely “society” to pay the difference, when the only people who could possibly pay are the productive people in a society. Thus it reduces in practice to the Marxist line of “to each according to their need, from each according to their ability”. Using deficits and funny government money to obscure the mechanics of scheme from the less perceptive.

  21. Libturd in Union says:

    “Great job big biz…..great job!! Won’t pay higher taxes, but will pay lobbying firms millions to lower your taxes. Scum bags.”

    Really Blumpelstiltskin? So the government is not at fault for doing what these lobbyists pay them to do? Holy misguided blame Batman!

  22. Ragnar says:

    Kreuger-Dunning Pumpkin,
    Don’t evade the question. I pay a 48% marginal rate, and a $20k property tax. Real life, not your imaginary straw man who pays 10% taxes that you imagine makes up the top 1% of income earners. Pick your confiscation percent target that reveals your true urge to redistribute.

  23. grim says:

    I’d argue that if rail service cannot be changed to operate without subsidies, then it should be ended. The right approach would be to take away the government near-monopoly on transport modes,

    The confounding variable in this mix is access to the right-of-ways and the governmental/bureaucratic process regarding this kind of thing. Without access to non-vehicular right of ways, the private sector would find it nearly impossible to utilize any mode that didn’t have wheels running on public right-of-ways.

    I could imagine a situation where if the lines were shut down, and right-of-ways forfeited, you might potentially see a situation where there could never be a trainline built in the future, since the hurdles would be so spectacular.

    I suppose there is some middle ground where you put out for bid the right to run the system, but in many of these cases you are still talking about a quasi-public system. You also have the question of public good, but that’s a tougher discussion than the right-of-way.

  24. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Rags, you are prob worth more than 10 million. So please explain to me why you need more than 10 million dollars to survive? I’m just wondering why you can’t afford a 48% tax rate. You seem to be doing fine. We lower your tax rate, who is going to pay for it? The guy working at wal-mart? Can’t drain anymore from them, they are already subsidized by welfare. So where is going to come from? Going to jack it up on the middle class govt worker you hate so much? You are doing more than fine with the current tax rate, why are you so greedy that you need to lower it for no reason whatsoever besides saving yourself money at the expense of someone less able to afford it. Greed is a disease. Instead of complaining about the tax rate and the govt, be happy this govt and country provided the means for you to become a millionaire. If you were able to become a millionaire under that tax rate then there is nothing wrong with the tax rate.

    Ragnar says:
    May 14, 2015 at 9:19 am
    Kreuger-Dunning-Pumpkin,
    I pay a combined 48% marginal federal plus state tax rate. Apparently you think that’s low. What’s your wish on how much you’d like other people to expropriate from me?

  25. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Amen. He can’t seem to understand how some things need to be controlled by the govt. If everything is privatized, that means everything is private property. Good luck trying to work with old rich a-holes who will not give in no matter what the price. It’s their property and they will never let efficiency come into play.

    grim says:
    May 14, 2015 at 9:44 am
    I’d argue that if rail service cannot be changed to operate without subsidies, then it should be ended. The right approach would be to take away the government near-monopoly on transport modes,

    The confounding variable in this mix is access to the right-of-ways and the governmental/bureaucratic process regarding this kind of thing. Without access to non-vehicular right of ways, the private sector would find it nearly impossible to utilize any mode that didn’t have wheels running on public right-of-ways.

    I could imagine a situation where if the lines were shut down, and right-of-ways forfeited, you might potentially see a situation where there could never be a trainline built in the future, since the hurdles would be so spectacular.

    I suppose there is some middle ground where you put out for bid the right to run the system, but in many of these cases you are still talking about a quasi-public system. You also have the question of public good, but that’s a tougher discussion than the right-of-way.

  26. D-FENS says:

    Sorry, They’ve all been outsourced to China.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 14, 2015 at 9:37 am
    Who pays 54%? Show me

  27. joyce says:

    apparently in the Idiot’s fantasy world, the middle class is made up entirely of govt workers

    Rich People
    Govt Workers
    Poor People

  28. The Great Pumpkin says:

    You totally ignore the role the worker plays in supporting our society. Be grateful that someone besides you has to work below a living wage to support your cheap prices. Right, cheap prices is your “holy grail”. You want cheap wages and cheap products. Just think about that for a second, how are cheap products and cheap wages the answer to it all? You need balance dude, not extremes. Everything cheap is just as bad as everything expensive.

    Ragnar says:
    May 14, 2015 at 9:39 am
    Politicians don’t really understand the difference between “cost” and “price”. They dream of a fantasyland where they can give away goods and services of infinite cost, for the price of only a vote (for them). It’s the job of “someone” or vaguely “society” to pay the difference, when the only people who could possibly pay are the productive people in a society. Thus it reduces in practice to the Marxist line of “to each according to their need, from each according to their ability”. Using deficits and funny government money to obscure the mechanics of scheme from the less perceptive.

  29. Ragnar says:

    You say 48% isn’t enough. By your reasoning, I should take 5% (or whatever represents my “need”) and thank “government and country” for allowing me to even keep that?

  30. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Yes, govt workers are middle class. Are you being serious or messing with me? This is dumbest thing I ever heard, stating govt workers are rich.

    joyce says:
    May 14, 2015 at 9:51 am
    apparently in the Idiot’s fantasy world, the middle class is made up entirely of govt workers

    Rich People
    Govt Workers
    Poor People

  31. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Based on that rate, were you able to make millions? So stfu with your greed. Why should we lower your taxes if you were able to accrue millions under it? Do you need more money? What’s the deal? Are you starving?

    Ragnar says:
    May 14, 2015 at 9:54 am
    You say 48% isn’t enough. By your reasoning, I should take 5% (or whatever represents my “need”) and thank “government and country” for allowing me to even keep that?

  32. Ragnar says:

    Am I an individual with rights including the right to my own life, or am I a serf toiling for a collective with an unlimited claim on my life and effort? No need for you to answer this rhetorical question- you’ve already revealed your choice.

  33. joyce says:

    With increasing frequency, the govt’s at the local & state levels are using their eminent domain “authority” to the benefit of private developers.

    thank the lord for the govt

  34. joyce says:

    Idiot,

    Are you unwilling or unable to actual read and understand the english language?

  35. Juice Box says:

    re # 23 – It’s been like 4 decades since private inter-city rail existed. It is simply cheaper and more efficient to run private buses. The current trains even the Acela offer no advantage to buses in time or cost. You would need to go back before the time of Buses to find any significant private investment in passenger rail, about 100 years.

    Perhaps it is time to shut down slow speed passenger rail for good?

  36. D-FENS says:

    Yeah! And if you don’t pay, we’re going to send men with guns to take you away and put you in a cage!

    The IRS is like fcuking Robinhood yo!

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 14, 2015 at 9:57 am
    Based on that rate, were you able to make millions? So stfu with your greed. Why should we lower your taxes if you were able to accrue millions under it? Do you need more money? What’s the deal? Are you starving?

  37. The Great Pumpkin says:

    I read it quickly. I’m a human, I’m not perfect. I was making the point of govt workers and middle class because rags hates all govt workers. Meanwhile, they are regular people. Take away the govt and what do you put in the place of it? Since the govt is so bad, what do you suggest we put in place of it to keep society functioning?

    joyce says:
    May 14, 2015 at 9:59 am
    Idiot,

    Are you unwilling or unable to actual read and understand the english language?

  38. Fast Eddie says:

    Thank G0d for the private sector and the rich. Thank you for the stocked pantries, the fresh fruit and breakfast every morning, the twice a week lunch and the perks and benefits. Without any of it, I wouldn’t have a place to exercise my knowledge and skills while providing a comfortable lifestyle for my family.

  39. D-FENS says:

    Well armed libertarians and anarchists. It’s been said that they are “the hippies of the right”.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:05 am
    I read it quickly. I’m a human, I’m not perfect. I was making the point of govt workers and middle class because rags hates all govt workers. Meanwhile, they are regular people. Take away the govt and what do you put in the place of it? Since the govt is so bad, what do you suggest we put in place of it to keep society functioning?

  40. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Last time I checked, providing for a safe society costs money? Taxes don’t just go into people’s pockets. They serve a purpose. If you don’t pay, you deserve to go to jail.

    D-FENS says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:00 am
    Yeah! And if you don’t pay, we’re going to send men with guns to take you away and put you in a cage!

    The IRS is like fcuking Robinhood yo!

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 14, 2015 at 9:57 am
    Based on that rate, were you able to make millions? So stfu with your greed. Why should we lower your taxes if you were able to accrue millions under it? Do you need more money? What’s the deal? Are you starving

  41. The Great Pumpkin says:

    And that will be better?

    D-FENS says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:09 am
    Well armed libertarians and anarchists. It’s been said that they are “the hippies of the right”.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:05 am
    I read it quickly. I’m a human, I’m not perfect. I was making the point of govt workers and middle class because rags hates all govt workers. Meanwhile, they are regular people. Take away the govt and what do you put in the place of it? Since the govt is so bad, what do you suggest we put in place of it to keep society functioning?

  42. Libturd in Union says:

    Of course Blumpy wants every last dollar from Rags. His former moneytree (Grandmama), must have died.

  43. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Thank the govt for providing the stability for these businesses to conduct business in a safe and consistent environment that allows them to flourish. Thank the govt for putting the tax money into research that allows us to type on this thing called the internet. I could go on and on.

    Fast Eddie says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:07 am
    Thank G0d for the private sector and the rich. Thank you for the stocked pantries, the fresh fruit and breakfast every morning, the twice a week lunch and the perks and benefits. Without any of it, I wouldn’t have a place to exercise my knowledge and skills while providing a comfortable lifestyle for my family.

  44. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Dance around my point. I challenge anyone on this board to give me a logical reason for lowing ragner’s tax rate when he was able to generate millions with it in place? Please explain why it is too high?

    Libturd in Union says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:13 am
    Of course Blumpy wants every last dollar from Rags. His former moneytree (Grandmama), must have died.

  45. Libturd in Union says:

    Wage Growth is here. NJTransit is raising our fares by about 9%. Good to see the market forces working the way they should. I wonder what that 9% covers? I’m assuming 95% of it is to cover salary increases.

  46. Libturd in Union says:

    “Dance around my point. I challenge anyone on this board to give me a logical reason for lowing ragner’s tax rate when he was able to generate millions with it in place? Please explain why it is too high”

    Time to read Animal Farm ya dolt.

  47. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Already read animal farm. It taught me that govt institutions are not the problem, but the people running them.

    Libturd in Union says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:20 am
    “Dance around my point. I challenge anyone on this board to give me a logical reason for lowing ragner’s tax rate when he was able to generate millions with it in place? Please explain why it is too high”

    Time to read Animal Farm ya dolt.

  48. D-FENS says:

    49 – Did you think that the government was an all knowing robot or a god? They’re all run by fallible human beings…which is why the system that governs by intruding the least on our lives is best for everyone.

  49. Libturd in Union says:

    Oy Vey.

  50. Juice Box says:

    re # 4 6 – I doubt he will avoid jail.

  51. yome says:

    #11 Ragnar – here is a great article about the rail system
    “You will not find the private sector willing to come in at the construction stage or the development stage,” he warned. For that, the government would have to pick up the tab. Only at that point would you “find people like me very, very willing to come in and buy it.” In other words, to get to the conservative dream of a privatized Amtrak, you would first have to pursue the liberal path of spending a massive amount of public money.”

    In November 2011, Robert Dove, a managing director at the Carlyle Group, the D.C.-based asset-management firm, delivered a presentation to the annual meeting of the U.S. High Speed Rail Association (USHSR), a lobbying-cum-cheerleading group formed shortly after Obama’s election. Dove began his slide show with the usual embarrassing stats about America’s high-speed-rail ineptitude (290 million annual high-speed-rail passengers in Japan; 3 million in America). He went on to estimate that for the Northeast Corridor alone to facilitate legitimate bullet-train travel, up to $117 billion in improvements were necessary. (Amtrak itself, in a 2012 plan that will probably never come to fruition—New York to Boston in 94 minutes!—put the number at $151 billion.) “You will not find the private sector willing to come in at the construction stage or the development stage,” he warned. For that, the government would have to pick up the tab. Only at that point would you “find people like me very, very willing to come in and buy it.” In other words, to get to the conservative dream of a privatized Amtrak, you would first have to pursue the liberal path of spending a massive amount of public money.

    http://www.nationaljournal.com/magazine/amtrak-acela-high-speed-trains-20150417?ref=facebook.com&mrefid=amtrakNE

  52. D-FENS says:

    52 – that’s what black boxes are for. Rumor has it, he was conscious enough to immediately scrub all of his social media accounts. Wonder if he was posting on facebook or something.

  53. The Great Pumpkin says:

    I’ll ask again. What logical reason is there for lowering rag’s current tax rate, if he was able to become a millionaire under that tax rate? How is that tax rate too high, if he is able to become completely successful under it?

  54. D-FENS says:

    55 – I really don’t give a fcuk what Rag’s tax rate is but to take that much is legalized theft. Why is it ok for the government to force him to pay…or they send men with guns…. However if someone sticks a gun in your face on the street and takes it, it’s a crime?

  55. jcer says:

    Passenger rail is inherently messed up in the USA. Normally I have a more libertarian bent but infrastructure is one of those things that is so complicated with so many issues that in reality only the government can build it. I think rail needs to go to a model where infrastructure in the form of rails is built and owned by the government but trains themselves are run privately or at least the rail lines are open to private traffic. The other big thing is the FRA and it’s frankly anachronistic regulations. The problem is Amtrak like so many other government run enterprises isn’t focused on projects and services that people want but rather is building high speed rail in orlando. Lets face it rail works in the northeast where we have very high population density, the northeast corridor needs to be redeveloped to have real high speed trains, 175mph+ and then maybe a Chicago-NYC high speed rail, all of these other projects make little sense. Other parts of the country need commuter rail NOT Amtrak trains. Say what you will but Italy, a country that has probably one of the worlds worst governments operates a far better train system than Amtrak. Even their commuter trains hit 100mph, I think NJ Transit averages 17mph, LIRR 25mph, out infrastructure is garbage. I think the issue is that roads have an inherent advantage to the rail in that they are open to everyone and are funded by the government, rail doesn’t have that advantage.

  56. Jason says:

    The money Ragnar had to divert to the goverment most certainly could have been used to expand or start a new business, which could have provided more jobs. Pumps, why are you blind to this notion?

  57. Juice Box says:

    re: # 57 “trains themselves are run privately”

    There is no money in it. Only private rail today is in Florida apparently, and subsidized.

  58. Libturd in Union says:

    Great Pumpkin,

    Where does the impetus for someone like Rags to work hard come from if your wonderful government comes and takes it all. Who is going to pay the taxes on the lazy ones once there is no impetus for anyone to work hard. Hello Greece!

  59. Libturd in Union says:

    Correction… who is going to pay the taxes that support the lazy ones once there is no impetus for anyone to work hard?

  60. yome says:

    “In other words, to get to the conservative dream of a privatized , you would first have to pursue the liberal path of spending a massive amount of public money.”

    Is that what has been happening? from Football Stadiums to Businesses moving in. Public needs to give them Money or Tax breaks. Is that what Privatized is?
    I have seen Privatized Roads in Asia were Tolls are so expensive its worth one week of an ordinary persons pay and that is traveling one way 50 miles with passing 2 Toll Booths .

  61. joyce says:

    Alright, Idiot. Last comment today… if you are able to read and comprehend (and the jury is definitely still out on that), from what we can infer about what Ragnar does for a living… do you realize that if we reverse the inflationary asset bubble bailout policies (a reversal supported by Ragnar), that will directly negatively affect his bottom line?

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:18 am
    Dance around my point. I challenge anyone on this board to give me a logical reason for lowing ragner’s tax rate when he was able to generate millions with it in place? Please explain why it is too high?

  62. phoenix says:

    Pumpkin,
    You have to think global. That’s where it’s at. Least common denominator.
    Why is Obummer pushing another global treaty? Is it going to help this country?
    Those in business are looking for the greatest efficiency, cheapest labor, lowest cost, least environmental damage claims, lowest taxes. Why? Those things add up to greatest profit. Profit is the key word. You take your cut and the rest goes to the shareholders. The people who push this stuff in America have no concern about the future of the country, they are out hustling for themselves and that is why they have the attitude of “take it away from me.”
    It will not be long before the foreign wealthy take over this country not by force but by buying it out piece by piece. An example would be like your parents selling every family heirloom and property they have and leaving their child with nothing except debt. The problem is what they are selling they think they earned (America itself) which was not something they “earned” but was given as a gift to them by their forefathers through blood and sweat.

  63. joyce says:

    Yes yome, yes. If privately with subsidies or eminent domain, it is impossible or uneconomic to buy and/or lease large tracts of land and then build & operate a transportation system… then it shouldn’t exist.

    yome says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:29 am
    #11 Ragnar – here is a great article about the rail system

  64. D-FENS says:

    I think it more likely it would have gone to the nearest BMW dealership or the Mexican landscaper.

    Jason says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:39 am
    The money Ragnar had to divert to the goverment most certainly could have been used to expand or start a new business, which could have provided more jobs. Pumps, why are you blind to this notion?

  65. joyce says:

    Ditto for new sports arenas.

    Buy why are we always surprised when the govt with all their “authority” auctions their influence off at every turn?

  66. D-FENS says:

    I just think trains are neat. I don’t care who builds them. Just build more of them.

  67. jcer says:

    As for Commuter rail in NYC metro, the feds should be picking up the tab for all of it. How much money in federal tax revenue is generated here? The infrastructure to support all of that commerce should be paid for by the federal government considering how much in taxes they are taking, also FRA regulation is major problem, the involvement of conrail is a major problem, and everything costs 5x what it should, a broke state like NJ cannot take on any kind of liabilities like would be encountered in a rail tunnel project.

  68. The Great Pumpkin says:

    He was able to become a successful millionaire. How is the tax rate holding him back?

    Libturd in Union says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:40 am
    Great Pumpkin,

    Where does the impetus for someone like Rags to work hard come from if your wonderful government comes and takes it all. Who is going to pay the taxes on the lazy ones once there is no impetus for anyone to work hard. Hello Greece!

  69. yome says:

    The crumbling roads,airports,seaports are all built by the Government that is being used by businesses today. How much ROI in terms of economic activity did we get from this infrastructure? This is what made America Great. When times China and the rest of the world did not have pave roads , the US had economic activity Coast to Coast. The key is ROI. If the government spends $300 billion on infrastructure that can create a return on economic activity that will double the investment, Will it not make sense to build it? We don’t spend enough for our infrastructure compare to all develop Countries

    joyce says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:47 am
    Yes yome, yes. If privately with subsidies or eminent domain, it is impossible or uneconomic to buy and/or lease large tracts of land and then build & operate a transportation system… then it shouldn’t exist.

  70. Libturd in Union says:

    “then it shouldn’t exist.”

    Words to live by.

    In Glen Ridge, we have too many athletes and not enough fields to play them in. The demand simply is greater than the supply. Every year, tons of money is spent on resodding all of our sports fields. Three times in the last decade a referendum was proposed to turf a few of our fields so they could hold up better to constant use. Each time, the proposals are rejected. For some, it’s a financial decision (short term cost is too great versus long term savings). For others, it’s environmental and safety (though one could argue playing sports on mud pits barren of any grass is probably more dangerous). And finally, it’s a NIMBY issue as people who live near the fields don’t want the additional usage and noise and litter and lack of parking that come with it.

    I suggested they start cancelling sports in the name of safety, even though my kid plays multiple sports in town.

    People aren’t rational.

    If rail service is so expensive. Cancel it. If buses require great subsidy, cancel them too.

  71. Ragnar says:

    yome,
    Yes I’ve covered the global rail industry for some years from an investment perspective. Someone who works in the industry knows operations much better than I would, but I understand the economics pretty well. Passenger rail is subsidized EVERYWHERE. Even in India. Freight rail is an entirely different industry, and all of them want to get as far from passenger rail as possible. It’s selling a $10 service at a $25 cost, and it’s a service very different from rail service. Modern passenger rail and freight rail don’t even have equipment or rail in common. China high speed rail and European & Japanese high speed rail is nice for the users, but it’s all subsidized in one form or another. Construction cost is never paid back by operating surpluses, and those are pretty rare. Of course roads are also subsidized by government. So it’s one subsidized program competing against another, and thus there aren’t clear economic signals about which one is most economically productive. Thus lobbyists settle the argument. Europe and China have a lot of train builders and construction, so they get lots of trains. NJ has a lot of corrupt road builders so we get a lot of roads.

    Last year I read a very evenhanded analysis of the history of the US railroad industry of the past 100 years “American Railroads: Decline and Renaissance in the Twentieth Century” by the late economist Gallamore. It had a chapter “The Enduring Problem of Rail Passenger Service in the Amtrak Era”. (Can search and find the chapter in Amazon). He calculated that by 2010, Amtrak had received over $40bn of cumulative subsidies. He estimated that the Northeast Corridor is close to breakeven on an operational basis, and a case could be made for splitting that off and ending the cross-subsidization and operation of the economically hopeless long-distance routes.

  72. Libturd in Union says:

    “He was able to become a successful millionaire. How is the tax rate holding him back?”

    Because at some point, the successful millonaire will take his work ethic and desire to get ahead elsewhere, where it won’t be taxed to pay for the lazy.

    Why am I retiring on Central America? Because I can get more bang for my buck. Plus, healthcare costs $120 a month maximum (no additional out of pocket costs). Now why is that? I bet their tax rates are significantly lower than ours.

    http://internationalliving.com/countries/costa-rica/taxes/

  73. jcer says:

    60 Lib, we are already there. I keep looking at what happens to my income as I earn more money and the conclusion I keep coming to is that I should quit my job start consulting only work 6-8 months per year and spend the rest on vacation. No need to work like a mad man so the government can call me rich and hit me all kinds of taxes, I can drop down a bracket and avoid all kinds of other taxes like increased capital gains taxes because clearly I’m rich(I’m really not). Being a millionaire isn’t what it once was, and Pumpkin the inherent issue is that the hedge fund manager can make many millions and not pay full tax on it but if you work for it, you are heavily taxed. So here is the problem, you cannot tax wealth because it can move, the rich aren’t tied to one place and it is better to be Switzerland than the rest of the Eurozone, you want the capital to flow into the US. So the working man must pay, they have no choice they need to earn a living, but the next problem is when you tax the high earning professional class too much, they are going to cut back on work because of diminishing returns at some point.

  74. chicagofinance says:

    I think the point with Amtrak is not so simple. Washington to Boston is a cash cow…..very profitable…..the Federal Government takes this resources and starves it by forcing an entire nation’s rail infrastructure burden onto the NEC cash generator……then it chokes it by chronically underfunding it…….there is simply no way to get the data you need to focus on DC-BOS and get it right….and get all the parties to play nice….

    Ragnar says:
    May 14, 2015 at 9:16 am
    I’d argue that if rail service cannot be changed to operate without subsidies, then it should be ended. The right approach would be to take away the government near-monopoly on transport modes, take away the subsidies-based competition between modes, and then let private users and private operators determine the best and most efficient options for transportation services, which would create a surge of private investment in infrastructure capacity. With modern cheap, wireless technology and e-micro-payments, payment for multimodal transportation fees is easily within reach, so that users of transport could pay its true cost, and let their preferences be revealed via the marketplace. Google and/or apple both have the mapping and GPS devices and payment services to enable this, and road infrastructure owners would probably hire them to coordinate and give away smart devices to every person in the US.

  75. Libturd in Union says:

    “He estimated that the Northeast Corridor is close to breakeven on an operational basis, and a case could be made for splitting that off and ending the cross-subsidization and operation of the economically hopeless long-distance routes.”

    That’s been the case and argument for years.

    So what is the argument for maintaining rail service to say, Burlington Vermont?

  76. The Great Pumpkin says:

    So after Rags has made millions, he is going to risk capital to start another? The capitalists of today are not taking big risks with their money. Hence, why the economy is in slow growth. With no demand, they refuse to take big risks with investing in their company, new tech, or creating a new company.

    Jason says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:39 am
    The money Ragnar had to divert to the goverment most certainly could have been used to expand or start a new business, which could have provided more jobs. Pumps, why are you blind to this notion?

  77. FKA 2010 Buyer says:

    [22] Rags

    Paying 48% marginal rate, I would say that you are paying your fair share. The farmers and the welfare society in middle America thanks you.

    The issue is the disparity of the tax rates that people pay. Or should I say the disconnect between earnings and the actual tax bracket you fall in. Maybe there should be a minimum tax (say the next lowest tax bracket) that an individual should pay. There is no way that the marginal rate of a high income earner (whatever your definition is) should be close or below that of a Walmart cashier.

    What’s interesting is that in the 50’s the rich paid tax rates close to 70% and we were able to build what was at the time the largest infrastructure project (interstate highway) and we still prospered as a nation.

  78. jcer says:

    74, it doesn’t work you’ll still be paying American taxes. I looked into becoming a citizen of Andorra, which has basically no taxes, freedom of movement in the Eurozone and a high quality of life but the US won’t let you get away with the exit tax and renouncing your citizenship.

  79. anon (the good one) says:

    @Bipartisanism:

    A dollar spent fixing infrastructure is 5 times more effective boosting the economy than corporate tax cuts. #Amtrak

  80. The Great Pumpkin says:

    78- What are they doing with their money? Investing in the landlord business. It’s low risk for their capital, and there is huge demand to drive big gains. Most of the capitalists of today with money don’t have the balls to risk it all. They just search for ways to make money at the lowest risk possible. Most of the time, they put the risk on the worker at the bottom of the scale or the govt (aka taxpayer).

  81. Libturd in Union says:

    jcer,

    My household is pretty much there as well. Which is why saving so much is so important. I have a ton of retirement money, much of it in ROTH. The moment the government changes the rules of ROTH will be the last day I work in America. It’s obvious to me that the best way to equalize the playing field is to to tax investment gains more heavily and income from labor less. But do to the lobbyist model, it will never ever happen. Though if it did, the economy would fly off the rails. Maybe I should use a different cliche?

  82. Libturd in Union says:

    jcer…well the cost of living alone would make it worthwhile. Plus the weather and lack of sheeple.

  83. jcer says:

    82, it’s called capitalism. If I can make big money without taking a huge risk, why wouldn’t I? High tech businesses aren’t exactly starved for capital, but if you somehow think capitalists should be investing in a new buggywhip factory in the good old usa instead of an apartment complex you are really dense.

  84. D-FENS says:

    Just put the Amtrak engineer in jail and move on folks. Don’t over think it.

  85. The Great Pumpkin says:

    And I bet their ability to make money is significantly lower than ours.

    Wherever there is low tax rates, there is no mobility. The low tax rates allow the rich to be comfortable with their money and allows them to be less productive because they can rest easy that they get to keep all their money. So taxing someone too much will cause them to not work as much, and taxing someone almost nothing will cause them to not work as much since they are getting more bang for their buck.

    Libturd in Union says:
    May 14, 2015 at 11:04 am
    “He was able to become a successful millionaire. How is the tax rate holding him back?”

    Because at some point, the successful millonaire will take his work ethic and desire to get ahead elsewhere, where it won’t be taxed to pay for the lazy.

    Why am I retiring on Central America? Because I can get more bang for my buck. Plus, healthcare costs $120 a month maximum (no additional out of pocket costs). Now why is that? I bet their tax rates are significantly lower than ours.

    http://internationalliving.com/countries/costa-rica/taxes/

  86. anon (the good one) says:

    It’s pure idiocy to validate your argument with a dream, as if it was something you had already done.

    post from Central America once you get there, otherwise STFU you and your retirement “plans”

    Libturd in Union says:
    May 14, 2015 at 11:04 am

    Why am I retiring on Central America? Because I can get more bang for my buck.

  87. Comrade Nom Deplume, the loan snark says:

    [88] a-none

    “It’s pure idiocy to validate your argument with a dream”

    How is that different from validating your argument with a hope?

  88. FKA 2010 Buyer says:

    [87] D-FENS

    Agreed

  89. joyce says:

    From an ROI perspective, yes it would make sense to build. That doesn’t make it any less morally bankrupt. You make not like the analogy… but it boils down to legalized theft and others knowing whats best with your money/property.

    yome says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:57 am
    ROI… Will it not make sense to build it?

  90. Fast Eddie says:

    Nom [89],

    It’s hope and change, get it right!

  91. D-FENS says:

    Damn, 12 people on the train still reported missing.

  92. The Great Pumpkin says:

    I’m just going against the fundamental belief that we need to lower the taxes for the rich so that they can invest more in the economy and create jobs. I think that is bogus. If they are not taking big risks with their money now, why would they take bigger risks when you lower their tax rate and they are left with even more money? How would having more money incline them or motivate them to invest in jobs and expand their business if they are currently not doing it with their excess capital already? So giving more is going to magically motivate them to start taking risks?

    Having more money is going to lead to an ambition to risk more? It’s not making sense to me. I would think the lower taxes is going to lead to them having more money, hence, lowering their desire to risk and make more.

    jcer says:
    May 14, 2015 at 11:14 am
    82, it’s called capitalism. If I can make big money without taking a huge risk, why wouldn’t I? High tech businesses aren’t exactly starved for capital, but if you somehow think capitalists should be investing in a new buggywhip factory in the good old usa instead of an apartment complex you are really dense.

  93. The Great Pumpkin says:

    So what is the alternative?

    joyce says:
    May 14, 2015 at 11:38 am
    From an ROI perspective, yes it would make sense to build. That doesn’t make it any less morally bankrupt. You make not like the analogy… but it boils down to legalized theft and others knowing whats best with your money/property.

    yome says:
    May 14, 2015 at 10:57 am
    ROI… Will it not make sense to build it?

  94. Libturd in Union says:

    “It’s pure idiocy to validate your argument with a dream, as if it was something you had already done.”

    At least I’ll be able to see if my actions end up being pure idiocy and if they do, I’ll change my plans.

    Pure idiocy is idolizing politicians who are playing you the fool. Pure idiocy is not realizing this.

    If you don’t like what I have to say, you are welcome to ignore it. I can think of half a million or so other forums for you to bother through the posting of your moronic and naive tweets.

  95. Ragnar says:

    The high marginal tax rate has mostly constrained my ability to reinvest in my current business. That’s where that tax money would mostly go. Instead, the pressure is to borrow to reinvest, but that’s an excessively risky choice. The incentives for borrowing is instead toward real estate, lower rates, lower vol, diversification.
    High taxes preserve the positions of existing asset owners, because while taxes take about 40% of my total imcome, they take about 70% of my potential reinvest able income.

  96. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Now you know how the lower and middle class feel about their taxes. At least with a business there are a million ways around not paying the required amount. You know how many businesses collect cash and never report it? Do you add that into your 48% figure? Don’t come back and say that low wage workers work for cash. Their bosses pay them under the table for a reason. I especially love the businesses that except cash only. They are the best. This girl at my high school would drive to school in her new mercedes suv, but would have her school lunch payed for by the tax payer. Scum bags. How does a middle class worker go about taking advantage like this?

    Ragnar says:
    May 14, 2015 at 12:03 pm
    The high marginal tax rate has mostly constrained my ability to reinvest in my current business. That’s where that tax money would mostly go. Instead, the pressure is to borrow to reinvest, but that’s an excessively risky choice. The incentives for borrowing is instead toward real estate, lower rates, lower vol, diversification.
    High taxes preserve the positions of existing asset owners, because while taxes take about 40% of my total imcome, they take about 70% of my potential reinvest able income.

  97. The Great Pumpkin says:

    98- Better yet, I don’t want anyone taking advantage. How do we go about preventing people from taking advantage? That’s the big question.

  98. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Where is your other money going that you having nothing left to invest if they tax you? So you are losing money instead of accumulating?

    Ragnar says:
    May 14, 2015 at 12:03 pm
    The high marginal tax rate has mostly constrained my ability to reinvest in my current business. That’s where that tax money would mostly go. Instead, the pressure is to borrow to reinvest, but that’s an excessively risky choice. The incentives for borrowing is instead toward real estate, lower rates, lower vol, diversification.
    High taxes preserve the positions of existing asset owners, because while taxes take about 40% of my total imcome, they take about 70% of my potential reinvest able income.

  99. phoenix says:

    Rags,
    If we privatized Medicare today, instituted immediately, how long before Kevorkian style medicine would take hold?
    Is it economically profitable to soak 500k into a 80yo woman to live one more year,even if it is your mother? How would a bean counter approach that subject?
    If a potential president were to propose doing such, what would you believe his/her prospects would be?

  100. Statler Waldorf says:

    Nothing should be free. People should always have at least some skin in the game.

    #JustSayNoToFreeHandoutsAtTaxpayerExpense

    “I want to bring down the cost of community college for responsible students to zero.”—Obama

  101. D-FENS says:

    Cocaine and Hookers. Haven’t you seen wolf of wallstreet? Quaaludes ain’t cheap.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 14, 2015 at 12:15 pm
    Where is your other money going that you having nothing left to invest if they tax you? So you are losing money instead of accumulating

  102. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Lmao!

    D-FENS says:
    May 14, 2015 at 12:28 pm
    Cocaine and Hookers. Haven’t you seen wolf of wallstreet? Quaaludes ain’t cheap.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 14, 2015 at 12:15 pm
    Where is your other money going that you having nothing left to invest if they tax you? So you are losing money instead of accumulating

  103. The Great Pumpkin says:

    God bless Roosevelt, a president that cared for the people.

    “Roosevelt, too, faced powerful opposition to the minimum wage. But he did not pull his punches as he said: “No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.””

  104. anon (the good one) says:

    how much are you willing to pay for freedom?

    Statler Waldorf says:
    May 14, 2015 at 12:26 pm

    Nothing should be free. People should always have at least some skin in the game.

  105. anon (the good one) says:

    @TheStalwart:
    Obama now running a smaller deficit than Reagan at the same points in their presidencies. Via @mbusigin

  106. Fast Eddie says:

    anon,

    how much are you willing to pay for freedom?

    Why don’t you answer that question yourself before asking anyone else?

  107. chicagofinance says:

    Did you see the wreckage? The first passenger car was pulverized……

    D-FENS says:
    May 14, 2015 at 11:50 am
    Damn, 12 people on the train still reported missing.

  108. Ragnar says:

    Clearly I need to hire Libturd as my life/budget consultant, Grim as my real estate investment consultant, Luge as my booze/drugs/guns consultant. But I won’t hire Pumpkin as my tax consultant, because despite his fantasyland imaginings, it’s not a simple matter to evade taxes when you’re an honest businessman not running some two-bit cash business, and I have no interest in cheating taxes and risking jail time.

  109. The Great Pumpkin says:

    That’s the problem, rags. Not many are like you, I know so many business owners gaming the system. I’m sure a lot of you do too. Hats off to you for doing it the honest way. We might not see eye to eye on economics, but I have much respect for you doing it the right way. If everyone did it the right way, I’m sure they would be able to lower your tax rate.

    Ragnar says:
    May 14, 2015 at 1:12 pm
    Clearly I need to hire Libturd as my life/budget consultant, Grim as my real estate investment consultant, Luge as my booze/drugs/guns consultant. But I won’t hire Pumpkin as my tax consultant, because despite his fantasyland imaginings, it’s not a simple matter to evade taxes when you’re an honest businessman not running some two-bit cash business, and I have no interest in cheating taxes and risking jail time.

  110. yome says:

    Corruption is nothing new. I am sure that is what was said years ago before and after building the US infrastructure. The investment return put in is worth multiple times over the expenses. It is the businesses and the public that benefitted long term.

    joyce says:
    May 14, 2015 at 11:38 am
    From an ROI perspective, yes it would make sense to build. That doesn’t make it any less morally bankrupt. You make not like the analogy… but it boils down to legalized theft and others knowing whats best with your money/property.

  111. joyce says:

    To not do it.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 14, 2015 at 11:56 am
    So what is the alternative?

  112. joyce says:

    yome,
    My post did not mention nor imply anything about corruption.

  113. joyce says:

    epic thought process

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 14, 2015 at 12:14 pm
    98- Better yet, I don’t want anyone taking advantage. How do we go about preventing people from taking advantage? That’s the big question.

  114. joyce says:

    Washington (AFP) – US senators reached a deal Wednesday that would help grant President Barack Obama authority to quickly complete a huge Pacific trade accord, one day after Democrats blocked the measure.

    Republican leaders and Democrats agreed to vote beginning Thursday on a package of trade-related measures, including two bills addressing issues like trade enforcement that are Democratic priorities

    http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-us-senate-reaches-deal-on-trade-fast-track-after-setback-2015-5#ixzz3a8TS1xVs

    well that was a quick 180

  115. The Great Pumpkin says:

    What is the alternative to govt? You know damn well it’s impossible to root out corruption due to human nature. So don’t blame govt for corruption, blame it on the individual. Govt didn’t make them corrupt or do corrupt things. It’s human nature in the first place that requires that society set up a govt to provide laws to the people who love to break them.

    joyce says:
    May 14, 2015 at 11:38 am
    From an ROI perspective, yes it would make sense to build. That doesn’t make it any less morally bankrupt. You make not like the analogy… but it boils down to legalized theft and others knowing whats best with your money/property.

  116. Jason says:

    112.

    In other words Yome, if businesses and the public benefit, it doesn’t matter how much the infrastructure project costs.

    This mentality is the reason spending and taxes are out of control.

  117. joyce says:

    Once again, now for the Idiot’s benefit, my post was not about corruption.

    That said, I will address it now. When the “gov” does something, it is given the aura of legitimacy. Why? Because it’s the government. Is is allowed to do things that us mere mortals are not allowed to do. [But wait, isn’t the government made up of and run by us mere mortals? What happened to those few people from one day to the next that made them infallible?] The structure our government corporation is the biggest enabler of corruption.

    If I were to force people to do things that benefit myself, either immediately or over time a group of pissed off people will resist.

    If I lobby the government to pass a law banning/enabling whatever I want, and people decide to resist… the government jack-booted goons will do my bidding indirectly during their enforcement of the law (they’re just doing their jobs after all).

  118. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Jason, spending and taxes are not out of control. If anything, there is not enough spending. You see the infrastructure in the U.S.? It’s pretty beat up. Taxes are at their lowest rates in the past 100 years. Also, when the economy is not functioning properly, it hurts the tax revenue due to so many people being out of work and not paying taxes. It costs a lot of money to run and maintain a society.

    Jason says:
    May 14, 2015 at 1:41 pm
    112.

    In other words Yome, if businesses and the public benefit, it doesn’t matter how much the infrastructure project costs.

    This mentality is the reason spending and taxes are out of control.

  119. Fast Eddie says:

    Troll. Fraud.

  120. Libturd in Union says:

    Epic!

    This made me snicker.

  121. joyce says:

    I’m going to prevent fabmax’s inevitable response of quoting Lincoln.

    “The legitimate object of government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done, but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves in their separate and individual capacities.”

    If you can figure out how to fulfills those “needs” without forceably taking individual’s property because you know what’s best for them… then have at it.

  122. The Great Pumpkin says:

    So you are under the notion that everyone knows what’s best for themselves? I find that hard to believe. A good amount of questionable actions happen on a daily basis that lead me to believe a lot of people do not know what’s best for themselves. Some purposely harm themselves on a daily basis.

    joyce says:
    May 14, 2015 at 2:01 pm
    I’m going to prevent fabmax’s inevitable response of quoting Lincoln.

    “The legitimate object of government is to do for a community of people whatever they need to have done, but cannot do at all, or cannot so well do, for themselves in their separate and individual capacities.”

    If you can figure out how to fulfills those “needs” without forceably taking individual’s property because you know what’s best for them… then have at it.

  123. The Great Pumpkin says:

    124- If govt had made a law outlawing zero down loans on house purchases, maybe the housing market would have never got the level it did during the housing bubble. That’s a prime example of how a free market with no regulation can be bad. With no regulation, the booms and busts are so much worse.

  124. Fast Eddie says:

    Some purposely harm themselves on a daily basis.

    No worries, they can get ‘Bama care to protect them.

  125. anon (the good one) says:

    the extreme right winger doesn’t believe in public benefit.

    This mentality is the reason our infrastructure is falling apart

    Jason says:
    May 14, 2015 at 1:41 pm
    112.

    In other words Yome, if businesses and the public benefit, it doesn’t matter how much the infrastructure project costs.

    This mentality is the reason spending and taxes are out of control.

  126. joyce says:

    As if there was (or is) a “free market” in the lending industry. Go play in the sandbox child.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 14, 2015 at 2:15 pm
    124- If govt had made a law outlawing zero down loans on house purchases, maybe the housing market would have never got the level it did during the housing bubble. That’s a prime example of how a free market with no regulation can be bad. With no regulation, the booms and busts are so much worse.

  127. Fast Eddie says:

    This mentality is the reason our infrastructure is falling apart

    What do you propose?

  128. joyce says:

    “So you are under the notion that everyone knows what’s best for themselves?”

    I’m not under the impression that every individual knows what’s best for themselves. However, I’m quite certain that not I, nor you, nor anyone else has the moral authority to force them to do otherwise. Help people that you want to help yourself, voluntarily.

  129. Jason says:

    Anon and Pumps, would you be in favor of a $10 a gallon gas tax to pay for infrastructure projects?

  130. joyce says:

    “public benefit”

    idiots pretend the individuals who are harmed for the sake of providing a public benefit don’t exist

  131. joyce says:

    I’m in favor of rent control for all multi-family properties for the public benefit.

  132. joyce says:

    Rent should be controlled by the market.
    [souce: http://njrereport.com/index.php/2014/10/22/existing-home-sales-stronger-in-september/#comment-657302%5D

    Everything else, not so much.
    [source: every other post by our resident Idiot]

  133. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [99] punkin,

    “How do we go about preventing people from taking advantage?”

    Move to Montklair.

  134. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [110] rags

    When it comes to tax advisor, you can go with me or Cheatius Maximus.

  135. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Here we go, to the extremes again. You want me to buy the house and let them live rent-free? If I was over-charging on rent to the point where people can’t afford the rent, I could understand. Right now, rent is the product of the cost of living. Are you advocating that a small time land lord like myself has the means to pay for someone else’s cost of living? I’m not trump. So what is your point?

    joyce says:
    May 14, 2015 at 2:27 pm
    I’m in favor of rent control for all multi-family properties for the public benefit.

  136. joyce says:

    You’re making too much profit. You can lower the rent, you just choose not to.

  137. anon (the good one) says:

    @nytimes:
    College student to Jeb Bush: “Your brother created ISIS”

  138. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [46] gator,

    D-Fens posted last night about the engineer, and the story noted that he was a gay activist and one-time cashier at Target.

    Naturally, the PC police excoriated the poster for pointing out the gay advocacy, much name-calling ensued. Their point was that it was irrelevant so noting it was hom0phobia.

    I respectfully disagree. If I were plaintiff’s counsel, that is a very salient fact and would give me a potentially new argument to prove negligence by Amtrak.

    He was a conductor before moving up to engineer. If his personnel jacket and other records show he was given that position because he complained bitterly about gay harassment and, being a member of a protected class, he was reassigned to another duty despite not being qualified or right in the head, just so Amtrak could avoid an EEOC anal probing, that gives the plaintiff’s bar a new avenue to show Amtrak disregarded public safety. So to me, its extremely relevant.

  139. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [131] Jason.

    “Anon and Pumps, would you be in favor of a $10 a gallon gas tax to pay for infrastructure projects?”

    As long as it is a state-level tax, no problem.

  140. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [139] a-none

    Jeb Bush to college student: “your parents created a moron.”

  141. chicagofinance says:

    Look I am apolitical…..I really don’t care. W probably created the opportunity for ISIS to exist, but the Obamunist could have crushed this thing by being more of the world’s policeman in Syria……he is an isolationist and anti-semite, so it didn’t happen.

    anon (the good one) says:
    May 14, 2015 at 2:48 pm
    @nytimes:
    College student to Jeb Bush: “Your brother created ISIS”

  142. leftwing says:

    Punkin, Punkin, and more Punkin

    >Rags, you are prob worth more than 10 million. So please explain to me why you need more than 10 million dollars to survive?

    Please explain to me why you even have the right to ask that question of him.

    >He was able to become a successful millionaire. How is the tax rate holding him back?

    Ah, the arrogance. Punkin has determined the appropriate level of income for Rags and the according tax rate. Bravo.

    Punkin, it’s real simple and no one gets it. From each according to their ability, to each according to their need. That simple maxim would solve our economic and social problems.

  143. leftwing says:

    >the extreme right winger doesn’t believe in public benefit.
    This mentality is the reason our infrastructure is falling apart

    Two separate thoughts above, although not unrelated.

    There are certain ‘public benefits’ required and legitimate, limited roles for government. National defence and currency being two.

    The reason the infrastructure is falling apart is because the seers in government you want to imbue with ever deeper decision making powers totally and intentionally misallocated resources by ignoring recurring maintenance and instead spent funds elsewhere.

    Crumbling infrastructure is not an indictment of the right, but Exhibit I of why the left (or anyone) should not be responsible for allocation of the nation’s resources.

  144. Ragnar says:

    139, joyce
    Yes, that post was so hilarious. the topic turned to rent controls and suddenly Pumpkin turned into Milton Fracking Friedman. The hypocrisy! Like the Great Pumpkin, his coherent thoughts appear only once per year, and even then they aren’t real.

  145. anon (the good one) says:

    that’s absurd and you should retract that racial accusation

    chicagofinance says:
    May 14, 2015 at 3:01 pm
    Look I am apolitical…..I really don’t care. W probably created the opportunity for ISIS to exist, but the Obamunist could have crushed this thing by being more of the world’s policeman in Syria……he is an isolationist and anti-semite, so it didn’t happen.

    anon (the good one) says:
    May 14, 2015 at 2:48 pm
    @nytimes:
    College student to Jeb Bush: “Your brot

  146. The Great Pumpkin says:

    I don’t charge maximum rent and I don’t raise the rent on my tenants every year. So why should I have rent-control again? I’m not a slumlord. So I don’t know what your point is.

    joyce says:
    May 14, 2015 at 2:44 pm
    You’re making too much profit. You can lower the rent, you just choose not to.

  147. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    [147] a-none

    New game: Every time anon plays his race card dog whistle, we drink.

  148. Comrade Nom Deplume, who needs to stop screwing around and get back to work says:

    I love rent control. It’s a great way to make under-the-table income.

    Cambridge had rent control so landlords worked with brokers to extract high “finders fees” for rent controlled apts. In fact, landlords didn’t even have to work with brokers–often people would offer up the fees, sometimes a few thousand bucks, for the apts.

    Then there was the “supplemental” fees that weren’t rent and usually paid in cash.

    I’m pretty sure none of that money saw its way onto a 1040.

  149. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Nice, trying to make it seem like I’m attacking him because he is rich. Not true at all.

    He is complaining about his high tax rate. I’m asking why? If you are able to accrue massive wealth under this tax rate, how is it too much? There are more billionaires than ever before, so does one come up with the logic that the tax rate is too high? Too high is when you aren’t able to accumulate wealth. That can’t be the case here since billionaires are being created under this tax rate.

    So please give me one logical reason why it should be lowered besides telling me the gov is evil and will not spend it better than I will.

    Also rags, why don’t you go enjoy your wealth instead of complaining about how much taxes you pay. I pay close to 30,000 in property taxes and you do not hear me complain about taxes. Just let it go, you are making LOTS of money. So what if you have to pay taxes because you are making money.

    leftwing says:
    May 14, 2015 at 3:22 pm
    Punkin, Punkin, and more Punkin

    >Rags, you are prob worth more than 10 million. So please explain to me why you need more than 10 million dollars to survive?

    Please explain to me why you even have the right to ask that question of him.

  150. anon (the good one) says:

    @pdacosta:
    CEO compensation rose nearly 16% last year.
    The average worker’s wages rose just 2.4%.

  151. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Okay, for all the people that want low taxes, almost no gov, and no regulation; move to Somalia. You will have all of those wishes come true. Good luck on your own in Somalia.

  152. The Great Pumpkin says:

    And then they cry about a higher tax rate. Total babies.

    anon (the good one) says:
    May 14, 2015 at 4:10 pm
    @pdacosta:
    CEO compensation rose nearly 16% last year.
    The average worker’s wages rose just 2.4%.

  153. anon (the good one) says:

    @BreakingNews:

    S&P500 marks record close as US traders cheer weakness in dollar and calmer bond markets – @CNBC

  154. joyce says:

    “So why should I have rent-control again?”

    Because you could afford to offer lower rents and choose not to, you’ll be fine you make enough.

  155. joyce says:

    “the Obamunist could have crushed this thing by being more of the world’s policeman in Syria”

    You say that like doing more of a bad thing is acceptable.

    “……he is an isolationist”

    First of all, that’s not true. And if it were true (in the sense of the way “isolationist” is defined today), I’d stand up and applaud.

    ” and anti-semite”

    Oh brother

  156. Juice Box says:

    re # 156 – Classic – The Limo Liberal does not want to take the bus.

  157. jcer says:

    153, or how about Andorra or Monaco. No income taxes, nice weather, no crime, and a high quality of life, for rich people life is good, for everyone else the rich people help them make good money. There is a very good reason the US has capital controls(you won’t be leaving with your money), the rich can domicile anywhere and they don’t need you, or your taxes, they own the valuable assets and commodities.

  158. jcer says:

    ISIS is firmly a creation of both Bush and Obama, without getting Saddam out of the way the ball wouldn’t be rolling and then Obama bungled the Iraq pullout and too some extent support the extremists in Syria, who were actually ISIS/ISIL whatever.

  159. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Gotta go to extremes to make your point and win the debate.

    No different than the minimum wage debate. Someone always resorts to stating that if you can raise it to 10 dollars an hour, then why not 50 dollars an hour and make everyone rich. Totally ignores the whole point of the minimum wage debate. No one’s talking about making minimum wage into a rich class, they are just asking for a livable wage. Meaning, the top took too much of the pie. These people just want a few more crumbs so that they don’t have to get help from Uncle Sam to survive. Everyone is going to remain in the same exact class. No one is jumping classes here, minimum wage will still be poor and the bottom of the barrel. They will just not need Uncle Sam to survive. So why does 50 dollars an hour get brought up into the minimum wage debate when that is an extreme form that does not apply to the debate. You are doing the same thing with this rent control debate…taking into extremes out of the context it was meant to be applied.

    joyce says:
    May 14, 2015 at 4:36 pm
    “So why should I have rent-control again?”

    Because you could afford to offer lower rents and choose not to, you’ll be fine you make enough.

  160. The Great Pumpkin says:

    This is what the wealthy people don’t get. You don’t own anything without a govt. Your entire existence is dependent on a gov entity being able to uphold laws and provide stability. Without that, you could never had made a dime. So kind of a spit in the face to take the money and run. It’s a total ” I got mine” attitude for people who do this.

    You know what, let those people take their money and leave. They aren’t true Americans. I don’t want anyone to risk their life defending freedom for scumbags like that.

    jcer says:
    May 14, 2015 at 5:03 pm
    153, or how about Andorra or Monaco. No income taxes, nice weather, no crime, and a high quality of life, for rich people life is good, for everyone else the rich people help them make good money. There is a very good reason the US has capital controls(you won’t be leaving with your money), the rich can domicile anywhere and they don’t need you, or your taxes, they own the valuable assets and commodities.

  161. joyce says:

    Idiot,
    How else should I phrase “you can charge lower rent” to not sound extreme? Please explain to me. Please show me. Show me.

  162. joyce says:

    “…when that is an extreme form that does not apply to the debate.”

    I guess you should go live in Somalia then.

  163. leftwing says:

    >Nice, trying to make it seem like I’m attacking him because he is rich. Not true at all.
    He is complaining about his high tax rate. I’m asking why? If you are able to accrue massive wealth under this tax rate, how is it too much?

    Punkin, starting to agree with others about your reading comprehension. No, I have not raised any question about his balance sheet or income. You do. I am asking what makes you feel like you have that right.

    >I don’t charge maximum rent and I don’t raise the rent on my tenants every year. So why should I have rent-control again?

    And, boom, we come full circle. Liberal arrogance means they have the ability to judge when you have earned enough. Its corollary, liberal hypocrisy, allows them to exempt themselves.

  164. yome says:

    You look at the ROI. Post World War II economic expansion,there are many against it. Same as your debate. Cost is the number one problem. 75 years later this expansions are still being used today. If the Nay sayers got their way will we have the Economic Power we have today? If the roads were not built or the bridges, will we have efficient trading? Can the public go efficiently to buy goods? Can businesses re stock their shelves as efficient.
    This is what I am talking about.

    Jason says:
    May 14, 2015 at 1:41 pm
    112.

    In other words Yome, if businesses and the public benefit, it doesn’t matter how much the infrastructure project costs.

    This mentality is the reason spending and taxes are out of control.

  165. joyce says:

    Why is it acceptable for the majority to rape the minority? Why do you act like the people who are forced to contribute to a public initiative are an abstract statistic?

    yome says:
    May 14, 2015 at 5:43 pm
    If the Nay sayers got their way will we have the Economic Power we have today? If the roads were not built or the bridges, will we have efficient trading? Can the public go efficiently to buy goods? Can businesses re stock their shelves as efficient.
    This is what I am talking about.

  166. leftwing says:

    >CEO compensation rose nearly 16% last year.

    Artifice.

    In the never ending attempt to suck more money into its maw the IRS classified capital gains on options as ‘income’ and taxed them as such.

    The vast majority of nominally large dollars in CEO pay (“Bob Smith earned $200 million this year!!!!”) and of year-over-year increases is often due to these capital gains.

  167. yome says:

    Live outside the US. Preferably a 3rd world or a Developing Country then you will have your answer.

    This is how it is in this Countries;
    Why is it acceptable for the minority to rape the majority? Infrastructures are Privatized. Only the Minority can afford them. The Majority is living at $100 a month and below. While the Minority with connections enjoy tax evasion. While the Majority gets Payroll Tax on their less than $100 a month .

    joyce says:
    May 14, 2015 at 5:50 pm
    Why is it acceptable for the majority to rape the minority? Why do you act like the people who are forced to contribute to a public initiative are an abstract statistic?

  168. joyce says:

    Yome,
    So it’s just like this country, but worse. The minority of extremely wealthy and connected individuals have “legal” loopholes to exploit and own and/or control the most important assets.

    How does that answer the question?

  169. Fabius Maximus says:

    #13 Rags

    What a complete crock! Worthy of the Tax Foundation.

    If you want to make that argument, use effective tax rate and not marginal tax rate It paints a more accurate picture.

  170. Fabius Maximus says:

    The only economics lesson you need today.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c91usT4P1u0

  171. joyce says:

    Agreed regarding marginal tax rates… you also going to burst pumpkin’s bubble regarding the 70%+ rates of the ’50s?

  172. leftwing says:

    Grim, in mod.

    Not sure if it is the reference to L0rd or sp3rm lol.

  173. leftwing says:

    Sweet l0rd.

    It was only about 6000 years ago your forebears figured out the wheel and how to plow.

    Since that time the division between the haves and the have-nots has been massive. For most millennia the have-nots actually perished. The hand wringing over income inequality is almost laughable in the historical context from antiquity through at least the industrial revolution.

    There will always be inequalities in wealth, income, and opportunity. There always has been. Some wealth and privilege will be unearned (the lucky sp3rm club). Likely hundreds of thousands incredible members of the underclass possessed the ability and ideas to literally change the course of history yet never were afforded the platform. Unfortunate for all of us. But as it has occurred, it will continue.

    We live in the most just and opportune time and country in the history of our miserable little warm blooded species. Man up, and get over yourselves.

  174. Fabius Maximus says:

    #83 Lib

    At your stage in Life I would have thought you would be in a traditional IRA. For most Roth only really work at the start or the end of a career as you are funding with your highest marginal (yes there is a proper use for the term) rate dollars.

  175. Fabius Maximus says:

    Grim I think I’m in mod.

    Real Estate news of the day. Only in Bergen baby! I have some friends down in the presidents section of Cresskill.
    http://tinyurl.com/mxps5q4

  176. phoenix says:

    177.
    Some animals are more equal than others…..

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