NJ Tax Machine Rolls On

From the APP:

Property tax relief? Not in sight in NJ (Warning annoying autoplay video)

Tax relief doesn’t appear to be on the way anytime soon for New Jersey residents — in fact, top state lawmakers meeting here Wednesday spent much of the time talking about how to raise revenue.

During a panel discussion, the officials agreed that the New Jersey’s highest-in-the-nation property tax is a concern, but they focused much of the discussion at potentially raising a different tax.

Democrats on the panel said replenishing the state’s transportation trust fund is the top issue facing the Legislature and that hiking the gasoline tax is an option to address it.

“All we’re talking about is raising taxes. But first why don’t we talk about some tax that we can lower?’’ said Republican Assembly leader Jon Bramnick.

Democrats increased their advantage in the 80-seat Assembly in elections earlier this month. Outrage over New Jersey’s $8,200-average property taxes prompted nearly 14,000 people to sign an Asbury Park Press petition in the weeks leading to the vote demanding that top elected officials commit to a plan for a 10 percent property tax cut by year’s end.

Many who signed the petition included handwritten notes complaining of their inability to keep up with the staggering tax burden in the Garden State.

Many lawmakers — mostly Republicans — also signed a pledge to cut the property tax, after a Press investigation showed how property taxes increase by some $540 million annually, even with a 2 percent tax cap in place.

“Too many of our relatives are being taxed out of the state,’’ Kean said. “Too many of our friends and neighbors are moving out of the state and we need to have as our primary focus, hopefully in lame duck but also in the upcoming session (beginning in Janurary), understanding what is making the state so unaffordable.’’

Bramnick said he’d rather focus on having the state’s school-funding formula retooled “to something that’s more fair, because (much of the school funding budget of) $9 billion of our $34 billion budget goes to a limited number of school districts, and much of that money has not created success.”

“It’s time to take it away from the courts and do a constitutional amendment and make it more fair. That’s how you reduce property taxes in many of our towns and cities,’’ he said.

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138 Responses to NJ Tax Machine Rolls On

  1. grim says:

    From the WSJ:

    The Percentage of Mortgages Entering Foreclosure Is at its Lowest Level Since 2005

    The housing market isn’t finished cleaning up the legacy of the foreclosure crisis, but it is mostly finished claiming new victims.

    About 0.38% of loans went into the foreclosure process during the third quarter, according to a report released Tuesday by the Mortgage Bankers Association, the lowest rate since the second quarter of 2005. About 3.57% of loans were at least 90 days past due, the lowest rate since the third quarter of 2007.

    A healthy job market and rising home prices–which let troubled borrowers sell rather than be foreclosed upon–have led to a steady abatement of the foreclosure crisis over the past five years.

    Fewer foreclosures should help home prices, both because bank-owned homes tend to sell for less than others and because empty houses often deteriorate and affect the values of their neighbors.

    Now, the foreclosure problem is largely isolated to loans made before 2009 and a few intractable markets that have been slow to process them. About 80% of mortgages that were seriously delinquent in the third quarter were issued before 2009, the MBA said. Among states, New Jersey, New York and Florida continued to have the highest foreclosure rates.

    While 1.88% of loans were in some stage of the foreclosure process nationwide, about 6.47% of loans in New Jersey were in foreclosure as well as 4.77% of loans in New York. Colorado, North Dakota and Wyoming had foreclosure rates of 0.6% or less.

  2. D-FENS says:

    Anyone who didn’t vote in the election this month…I don’t want to hear any fcuking complaining out of you about taxes in NJ…

  3. D-FENS says:

    N.J. looking into whether to force Jersey City reval

    http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2015/11/nj_looking_into_whether_to_force_jersey_city_reval.html#incart_river_home

    At least one person is happy about the prospects of a Jersey City reval: state Sen. Mike Doherty, a Republican from Warren County.

    Doherty, a frequent Fulop critic, told The Jersey Journal in the summer that he had asked Gov. Chris Christie about forcing a reval in Jersey City. Doherty said he spoke to the governor after he read that Fulop had purchased a house in the Heights for over $700,000 and would pay an annual property tax bill of only $7,700.

    A house valued at that amount in Warren County would come with a tax bill of over $20,000, said Doherty, adding that stalling a reval in Jersey City allows “rich people” to pay artificially low tax bills.

    “This has got to stop,” he said. “The government is supposed to treat everyone the same.”

    Realty Appraisal, the firm that had been performing Jersey City’s reval when Fulop abruptly halted all work in 2013, subsequently sued the city in Hudson County Superior Court, seeking to be paid “substantial sums” it said it was owed for work that had already been completed. The two sides are expected to meet in court later this month.

    City spokesman Ryan Jacobs could not immediately be reached to comment.

  4. D-FENS says:

    The investigations, which will include public hearings, are part of a larger effort to address noncompliance with state regulations regarding revaluations, officials said today. Here in Hudson County, East Newark, which hasn’t had a reval since 1986, and Harrison, which had its last reval in 1988, will be next after Jersey City, they said.

  5. grim says:

    Fulop only pays $8k on a $700k property in JC?

    Who cares about a McMansion in Warren County with a $20k tax bill, there are dilapidated properties in Irvington paying well over $10k taxes, when they aren’t even worth one quarter of Fulop’s joint.

  6. Ottoman says:

    A house valued at $700,000 in Warren County is going to have lots of acreage or be commercially zoned. And a quick search of tax record properties in Washington Twp, where Doherty lives, that sold over $700k proves it. One of them with 38 acres has taxes under $9k. Most of the rest are town owed or commercial. But Doherty spent a lot of time fighting hard to keep gays from marrying in NJ because that’s an important fiscally responsible thing to do. Dummy.

  7. Ottoman says:

    We could up the tax exemption for farming to a minimum of 50 acres. Wonder if Doherty’s constituents on 6 to 15 acres would go for it. Only fair, right?

  8. Libturd in Union says:

    Or increase the amount of revenue generated by the farm to have to equal say, a 15th of what the the property value is, or something of the like.

  9. grim says:

    The recent “overhaul” of the farmland assessment loophole was a joke. They need to add another zero onto the required revenue numbers.

    It’s more than just the obvious abuse, I don’t understand why we would give even hobby/gentlemen farmers this break. Why am I paying to subsidize someone’s weekend hobby or pet horses?

    My great dane is pretty big, and I grow tomatoes, where is my farmland assessment break?

  10. Pete says:

    Fulop bought the house for $845,000. Its very easy to find houses in JC that sold for half that price with greater tax bills.

  11. Libturd in Union says:

    It goes to show you what is wrong with our government and why the need to abolish campaign funding and lobbying is an absolute necessity. Until then, voting is an affirmation of a broken system.

  12. leftwing says:

    Clicked through the plethora of article links after the first.

    My understanding is a reval won’t end the tax discrepancy between JC and suburban jurisdictions. That is, if JC revals its assessments up by say 50% their citizens won’t pay that much more in total taxes. The rates will just adjust. A JC reval would smooth out the discrepancy in property values in JC. The Heights have exploded in value, while other areas haven’t. Basically, some craphole just off the 495/3 merge is paying way more in taxes than he should relative to the (newly) valuable property owners in the Heights.

    The real problem in urban/suburban taxes is Abbott. Good article on that below. Here’s a quote:

    “In FY 2014, Jersey City will receive $417 million in state school aid, approximately $14,188 per student.”

    http://www.nj.com/opinion/index.ssf/2015/07/jersey_city_mayor_steve_fulop_plays_hide_the_ratab.html

  13. anon (the good one) says:

    BREAKING NEWS
    8:30 AM Jobless Claims in U.S. Keep Hovering Near Four-Decade Lows

    Jobless Claims in U.S. Keep Hovering Near Four-Decade Lows
    Victoria Stilwell

    November 19, 2015 — 8:30 AM EST

    Initial jobless claims in the U.S. continued to hover around four-decade lows last week as the labor market strengthens toward full employment.
    Applications submitted to state agencies for unemployment benefits decreased by 5,000 to 271,000 in the week ended Nov. 14 from 276,000 in the previous period, a Labor Department report showed Thursday. The number of claims dipped to 255,000 in mid-July, the fewest since the 1970s.

    Steady demand has encouraged employers to hold the line on firings as a tighter labor market makes it difficult to attract skilled workers. Employment has shown enough signs of strength to allow Federal Reserve policy makers to consider raising rates for the first time in almost a decade.

  14. Libturd in Union says:

    And lord help us if the Clinton Foundation becomes the next president of our country. Remember…GS has given $250 million. That should really help with the favorable treatment for Wall Street.

  15. leftwing says:

    Guys, don’t fall for the sleight of hand that is the farmland assessment. You’re too smart for that.

    That’s exactly what these elected jackoffs want. The (educated) populace enthralled and distracted by an emotional issue. We stare at that drop in the bucket while they march billions of our tax dollars out the front door through Abbott.

    Remove the emotion, who cares about farmland? The additional amount collected may pay a handful of firemen pensions. Whoopee.

    JC School District – an absolute abject miserable failure – was rewarded with $400 million of YOUR tax money last year alone for wrecking its youth and sentencing them to a life of poverty.

    That’s the issue. Not that the Duke heirs and Forbes are $100k short on full tax bills in a state that badly needs preserved green areas.

  16. Libturd in Union says:

    Oh, went to Uno’s the other night for a fundraiser for a kid on the safety patrol on my son’s hockey team. A receptionist led us to our table where we were requested to order drinks and appetizers from an iPad. I asked how do we order our entrees and he said you hit the call server button on the iPad and it signals him to come to the table. Well after eating our apps, we hit the button. No one came. No one could even find our supposed waiter. He was in the kitchen cooking pizzas. This $15 minimum wage this is going to flop horribly at the start of the next downturn. It will seem fine as long the economy enjoys slow growth. But the moment same store sales begin to drop, what few places haven’t gone to the replace an employee with an iPad model will. You’ll see.

  17. Libturd in Union says:

    Left…I would agree. But it’s akin to saying, ignore the tax breaks on the rich and the many loopholes they can afford to take advantage of since it can’t reduce the ENTIRE deficit.

  18. Libturd in Union says:

    There are so many corrupt issues in this state that you could probably reduce the state income tax to zero for everyone if you fixed them all.

    Did you see that article on the cop from Montclair collecting the 102K pension and working as an undersheriff at the county? His son is in jail for shooting up the neighborhood and selling coke and heroin. He’s in jail for sexual deviance. Most likely, still collecting that pension. The level of corruption is outrageous. A bloomfield counselor is going to jail too for taking a 15K bribe recently. Everywhere you look, this sh1t is going on. It’s reached the point to where it has become so common that it’s virtually acceptable. And it’s in every level of the public sector. I hung out with my brother in law who works in the fed customs office. He shared with me an unethical practice that the office does with such regularity that it they’ve given it a code name. I’d share it here, but I would hate for him to lose his job over it. I agree the farmland assessment is small beans. But there are so many small beans that when combined, it would easily surpass the waste that is abbott.

  19. leftwing says:

    Lib, I get it. But the class warfare stuff comes straight out of their sleight of hand playbook as well.

    Doesn’t matter who is in what House or Mansion, somehow the general condition of the populace never improves but the political occupants’ financial condition does.

    How about that “I feel your pain, first ‘black’ President”? According to this blog society’s lower echelons are much worse off now than previously. In that time how many tens (a hundred or better?) of millions of dollars in net worth did the Clintons accumulate?

    Until we can step beyond the emotion and focus on *the numbers* we’ll continue to be the rubes – left and right alike.

    So, again, is there some money left on the table with farmland? Yes. Financially – underscore financially – does it even matter? No, it’s a rounding error.

    If the goal is to focus energy on negative emotions carry on. If the goal is to fix the financial sh1tshow that is the State of NJ focus on Abbott and elsewhere.

    Follow the money. The politicians learned this so long ago….

  20. leftwing says:

    Hockey analogy Lib.

    You have Green and Kronwall tying up Beagle in the corner while Ovy is wide open in high slot.

    Fcuk Beagle. Drop Ovy.

  21. anon (the good one) says:

    “The four-week moving average of claims, considered a better measure of labor market trends as it strips out week-to-week volatility, rose 3,000 to 270,750 last week, still close to a 42-year low.

    Economists expect payrolls will increase by at least 200,000 in November, which will give the Federal Reserve confidence to raise its short-term interest rate at the Dec. 15-16 meeting.

    The labor market has remained resilient despite faltering global growth. At 5 percent, the unemployment rate is in territory that many Fed officials see as consistent with full employment and the share of job seekers per open position is the lowest since 2007.”

  22. Libturd in Union says:

    I get it Lefty. I’m a dreamer and think we can somehow drop both Beagle and Ovechkin simultaneously.

  23. leftwing says:

    Hahaha. Both dropped me.

    Got way too involved in DraftKings. Was doing quite well. Bet heavily with a Caps lineup last night. 0-8 in my contests. Ooops.

    Thought for sure Ovy would finally get (and keep) that goal, and that Detroit would be so focused on shutting down Ovy the third line would have a party.

    My bad…..

  24. Fast Eddie says:

    I was on line behind a woman at a local box store last night in my new location in outer white-landia. The woman had two young kids with her. She bought about $100 worth of items and used a credit card, a check and cash to pay for the goods. I noticed she had a nice chunk of rock on her left hand – a wedding band and a sizeable stone. I thought it was telling that she paid using three different sources. Either she is careful and calculating with finances or keeping up the appearance is becoming more difficult. Just an observation.

  25. Libturd in Union says:

    Left…What percentage of the money taken in do you think Draft Kings pays out. I bet it’s under 50% and probably closer to 25% considering their promotional budget. I would steer clear of them. If you still choose to sportsbet which is about an 85% return on average, I beg you to stick with the operations than run a proxy for you in Vegas. At least you know it’s fair. Don’t forget, it wasn’t too long ago that PokerStars and the other online poker sites ran with most of the money when they were shut down. They were so greedy, they ran these sites like a ponzi scheme instead of just sticking with the rake.

  26. 1987 Condo says:

    #18 “There are so many corrupt issues in this state that you could probably reduce the state income tax to zero for everyone if you fixed them all.”..

    yeah..we had that already….the income tax was supposed to reduce the property tax burden, particularly the costs associated with school funding, but as already noted, that money was hijacked to go to the former Abbott districts….

  27. homeboken says:

    I hate to distract the board with actual real estate questions but here goes:

    Does anyone have familiarity with Scotch Plains? I am eyeing houses here and thee is a big number of knock-down new construction. The commute is going to be at the top end of my range time wise but I will have to deal with that, and the proximity to Newark airport is a plus. The tax bills that I am seeing seem to be more reasonable than those in neighboring Westfield, and I have bias against Westfield as it is. Coming from Hoboken I am not really looking to settle into Hoboken West.

  28. 1987 Condo says:

    #24..why are people using checks..it was annoying in 1974….

  29. 1987 Condo says:

    Beginning of end for Obamacare?:

    http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/19/the-associated-press-unitedhealth-ties-to-public-insurance-exchanges-uncertain.html

    “The company said Thursday that it would pull back on the marketing of its exchange business a few weeks after open enrollment for that coverage began nationwide. It also said that it will decide in the first half of next year “to what extent it can continue to serve the public exchange markets in 2017.”

    “We cannot sustain these losses,” CEO Stephen Hemsley said Thursday. “We can’t really subsidize a marketplace that doesn’t appear at the moment to be sustaining itself.”

    Hemsley told investors Thursday that the company doesn’t intend to take further losses from this business in 2017”

  30. Libturd in Union says:

    Homeboken…I only answer questions about bagels.

  31. Fast Eddie says:

    Beginning of end for Obamacare?

    A disaster that will go down in flames. An unmitigated failure from conception. It while be known as the crown jewel of a defective presidency and further proof that progressive ideology is a sign of weakness and frail, individual development.

  32. Fast Eddie says:

    while = will

  33. Fulop is a dicktard. Wouldn’t even stop the dope slinging at the basketball courts 50 feet from his old house in Van Vorst.

  34. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Law is nothing more than a sign of a morally corrupt and bought govt. They are legally pushing the cost of their property on taxpayers that have much less money than them. Messed up beyond belief.

    grim says:
    November 19, 2015 at 8:31 am
    The recent “overhaul” of the farmland assessment loophole was a joke. They need to add another zero onto the required revenue numbers.

    It’s more than just the obvious abuse, I don’t understand why we would give even hobby/gentlemen farmers this break. Why am I paying to subsidize someone’s weekend hobby or pet horses?

    My great dane is pretty big, and I grow tomatoes, where is my farmland assessment break?

  35. Libturd in Union says:

    “We cannot sustain these losses,” CEO Stephen Hemsley said Thursday. “We can’t really subsidize a marketplace that doesn’t appear at the moment to be sustaining itself.”

    In the last five years, UNH has outperformed the S&P by more than 200%. I know that. I was in it for most of the ride. They can afford to subsidize it. They just choose not to. I don’t blame them. The healthcare industry paid Obama handsomely for the right to say no.

    “Obama received a staggering $20,175,303 from the healthcare industry … healthcare industry contributions to Obama during the 2008 election”

  36. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Are you serious? It’s blatant corruption and evidence of a govt bought and paid for by the rich. What is so funny is that if you caught news of some govt program that allowed the poor residents to grow a garden and get a discount on their rent based on a property tax discount to the landlord, you would be against it. Some insanely wealthy individuals get to skip their property tax requirements and push it on people that are less off, and you are okay with it because it’s only a small percentage? Wow!

    leftwing says:
    November 19, 2015 at 8:42 am
    Guys, don’t fall for the sleight of hand that is the farmland assessment. You’re too smart for that.

    That’s exactly what these elected jackoffs want. The (educated) populace enthralled and distracted by an emotional issue. We stare at that drop in the bucket while they march billions of our tax dollars out the front door through Abbott.

    Remove the emotion, who cares about farmland? The additional amount collected may pay a handful of firemen pensions. Whoopee.

    JC School District – an absolute abject miserable failure – was rewarded with $400 million of YOUR tax money last year alone for wrecking its youth and sentencing them to a life of poverty.

    That’s the issue. Not that the Duke heirs and Forbes are $100k short on full tax bills in a state that badly needs preserved green areas.

  37. Nom (from yesterday) – Our first MA place was in Inman Square, June 1998. Tiny SFH at 78 Line Street, furnished Summer rental that belonged to a Spanish professor at Tufts. She looked for a responsible couple to rent her house each summer while she spent the Summer in Spain.

  38. Marilyn says:

    #36. I agree with you on this one.

  39. leftwing says:

    Hey Pumpkin(fish):

    Hook, line, and sinker.

    Keep focusing on your financially meaningless class warfare while the real goods walk right out the front door.

    That is exactly what they want.

  40. Lib [16];

    our supposed waiter… was in the kitchen cooking pizzas.

    They take a frozen prepared pizza and put it on one end of the conveyor belt of an EZ-bake oven, then catch it when it pops out on the other side. That’s “cooking”? I understand the difference between a chef and a line cook, but that doesn’t even qualify as the latter.

    I used to like Uno’s to an extent — yeah isn’t not real Chicago deep dish but it had something to be said for it. Then they got REALLY cheap and quality went to sh!t in several of their outlets in different cities where I’ve been.

  41. Alex says:

    In other Anon economic recovery news…

    NY Times:
    November 18, 2015

    Top of the article:

    “Half of New York City residents say they are struggling economically, making ends meet just barely, if at all, and most feel sharp uncertainty about the future of the city’s next generation, a new poll show.”

  42. leftwing says:

    And by the way all knowing pumpkin, I would not be against your ‘garden break’. Really like your mind reading ability.

    And further, the farm assessment does not bother me just because it is financially meaningless. It also does not bother me because the alternative is neither attractive nor possible.

    That alternative being of course development of those lands.

    Last thing this state needs is more plastic and pressboard crapboxes clogging up the 202/206 corridor even if they are on an acre or so. There is public good to having green space, even if it needs to be subsidized through tax dollars. And there is absolutely zero ability for the already crumbling infrastructure to support that development.

    So, yeah, if Forbes gets a $75k tax break to disincentivize him from developing that property I’m cool with that.

    Pales in comparison to the $400 million is being p1ssed out the windows ‘on the poor’ in JC.

  43. leftwing says:

    $400 million for absolutely no return whatsoever btw.

  44. phoenix1 says:

    Common sense article…

    “For those unable to find a safe route out, the guidance says to find cover from gunfire by hiding behind “substantial brickwork” or “heavy reinforced walls.” The document points out that cover from view does not necessarily mean you are safe as “bullets go through glass, brick, wood, and metal.”

    http://qz.com/554509/the-best-advice-if-you-find-yourself-in-a-terror-attack-do-not-play-dead/?utm_source=YPL

  45. phoenix1 says:

    LW,
    Looks to me you blame the school for everything and not accept the fact it is a social/personal issue.
    I’ll give you a bucket– no, I’ll upgrade you to a front end loader, nahh 10 front end loaders- go put the sand back into the ocean. Let me know how you make out….

    JC School District – an absolute abject miserable failure – was rewarded with $400 million of YOUR tax money last year alone for wrecking its youth and sentencing them to a life of poverty.

  46. Libturd in Union says:

    “$400 million for absolutely no return whatsoever btw.”

    I expect Pumpkin to proclaim it’s cheaper than incarcerating them.

  47. phoenix1 says:

    39 LW
    Who is “they.”

    “That is exactly what they want.”

  48. Xolepa says:

    Every couple months we get an uneducated bunch of city types harping about farm taxes. Guess what guys, the landowner still pays full freight on the house that they live in on the property. And that tax is overblown as a result of the Abbott redistribution of wealth (municipal assistance from the state) to places like….Hoboken.
    It just happens that the low tax numbers you hear about are a result of viewing online records of subdivided properties – farm land is usually detached by deed from the personal residence. No one checks the taxes on the personal residence plot and thus the envy begins – Grim included.

    The reason the farmland exemptions were put in place was to prevent NJ from being carved up into 1/3 acre lots across the state, which would have happened by now if the exemption didn’t exist. No old-time farmer would have been able to pay full value on the land if that was the case. And for every ‘wealthy’ landowner you have multiples and multiples of poor ones. Just drive around and see the condition of some of these NJ farm houses.

    You city guys just want a rolling carpet of rat cages.

  49. phoenix1 says:

    48 X,
    They are not talking about real farmers, they are talking about homeowners that sell 10 trees or 10 bundles of firewood and call themselves farmers.
    A stand outside with a bucket of tomatoes does not make you a farmer.
    You can do that on one acre…..

  50. phoenix1 says:

    Remember,
    The poor think locally, the middle class thinks nationally, and the rich think globally.

    The rich don’t care about America or J.C.- it’s not in their mindset.It’ a place to rape like any other.
    The middle class waves the American Flag and truly loves the USA.
    The poor are trying to figure out if the guy down the street has the ten bucks he owes him so he can pay his cell phone bill…

  51. Libturd in Union says:

    I just figured out how we can defeat the terrorists. We can start fracking in Syria.

  52. The Great Pumpkin says:

    People like you are the reason the wealthy get away with it. You see no wrong in anything they do, you have an excuse for all their immorally wrong practices and policies. YOU ARE A MAJOR PAWN BEING USED IN THIS CHESS GAME WE CALL CLASS WARFARE. Get em soldier.

    leftwing says:
    November 19, 2015 at 10:47 am
    Hey Pumpkin(fish):

    Hook, line, and sinker.

    Keep focusing on your financially meaningless class warfare while the real goods walk right out the front door.

    That is exactly what they want.

  53. The Great Pumpkin says:

    This reads like one giant excuse for the wealthy and how they take advantage. Are you really naive to think that “poor” are taking advantage of the rich? You are so lost, it’s not even funny. You are right, the poor and disadvantaged take advantage of the taxpayer. This sounds so stupid and lacks any type of a logical thought process. How in the world are poor people taking advantage? Their lives suck. Why I don’t have respect for republicans, they blame the poor for all the problems. They are so manipulated and lost, you can’t help them. They have take the hook, line, and sinker. So gullible, yes, the poor are the reason for my problems. lmao

    leftwing says:
    November 19, 2015 at 10:56 am
    And by the way all knowing pumpkin, I would not be against your ‘garden break’. Really like your mind reading ability.

    And further, the farm assessment does not bother me just because it is financially meaningless. It also does not bother me because the alternative is neither attractive nor possible.

    That alternative being of course development of those lands.

    Last thing this state needs is more plastic and pressboard crapboxes clogging up the 202/206 corridor even if they are on an acre or so. There is public good to having green space, even if it needs to be subsidized through tax dollars. And there is absolutely zero ability for the already crumbling infrastructure to support that development.

    So, yeah, if Forbes gets a $75k tax break to disincentivize him from developing that property I’m cool with that.

    Pales in comparison to the $400 million is being p1ssed out the windows ‘on the poor’ in JC.

  54. anon (the good one) says:

    that’s exactly right. how much of MY taxes went into the War in Iraq?

    how many of the so called fiscally conservative complained about it?

    $400mn pales in comparison to the billions to wasted in Iraq, but right wingers accept their right type of corruption

    leftwing says:
    November 19, 2015 at 10:47 am
    Hey Pumpkin(fish):

    Hook, line, and sinker.

    Keep focusing on your financially meaningless class warfare while the real goods walk right out the front door.

    That is exactly what they want.

  55. anon (the good one) says:

    but certainly not cheaper than W’s war in Iraq

    Libturd in Union says:
    November 19, 2015 at 11:12 am
    “$400 million for absolutely no return whatsoever btw.”

    I expect Pumpkin to proclaim it’s cheaper than incarcerating them.

  56. Libturd in Union says:

    “that’s exactly right. how much of MY taxes went into the War in Iraq?”

    For what it’s worth Anon, you are going to pull the lever for a pathetic senator that voted for it.

    Bernie didn’t. But as I keep saying. There really is no difference between a Clinton and a Bush.

  57. Can we just import all the refugees to Texas so they can start building a wall to keep out the Infidels?

  58. A Home Buyer says:

    49-

    So do the math and figure out how much we are being robbed.

    Total NJ Income from all taxes sources is around 51 Billion dollars. Of that property tax is around 26 Billion.

    The high estimates from the groups trying to boost the requirements for farm assessment say between 300-600 million is being lost from “Fake Farmers”. We are looking at squeezing 2% of additional property tax value.

    Other sources, less biased, say only 80 million dollars which drops you down into low fractional percent territory. Are you really going to p1ss and moan about .3% of property tax money (across all echelons of citizens) being kept in tax payers pockets instead of going to Ipads in Newark?

  59. Fast Eddie says:

    but certainly not cheaper than W’s war in Iraq

    You mean the same war that Hillary endorsed? By the way, how much money do you think was spent on failed liberal policies over the last 50 years?

  60. homeboken says:

    I find it very troubling that folks like Doherty from Warren County and many folks on this board seem to focus on how much others are paying and pointing out that it is too low.

    Can we please stop trying to point out that someone else pays too little and that they should be paying more? How about we all focus on the fact that we have a spending problem, a MASSIVE spending problem. If the Doherty character is successful and gets Fulops taxes raised, who cares? Who benefits. Not me, Not you, not Doherty. Same for the farmland assessment, I agree that it is scam, but if we wipe it out, so what? My taxes aren’t going down because of that.

    I really can’t beleive that we are all pointing to the loop-holes that others exploit. Can we focus on the total waste of the money once it gets into the state coffes?

  61. phoenix1 says:

    AHB,
    I get it, it’s a small percentage. 80-600 million. Funny how that money only goes to a certain group of individuals. I fight to save 10.00 off of something, I would love a few K off my property taxes every year. It’s so easy to get that money back, no work involved, just set the numbers to a realistic figure and sign the paper. But they don’t and for a reason. The recipients of the “small amount” are connected and therefore exempt from paying their fair share. You may not want that money back, but others do. They have a legitimate gripe.

  62. Fast Eddie says:

    Hey, remember the $887,000,000,000 wasted pork package that f.uck face Oblammy used to pay off his lackies? Your tax dollars at work.

  63. phoenix1 says:

    59 FE,
    Hillary and how many others. R&D, all the same as Libturd says again and again.
    And I agree with him…

  64. Libturd in Union says:

    Why if NJ spends more than any other state on K-12 education, is it the slowest to recover from the recession?

  65. Marilyn says:

    41 What does it say about the other half?

  66. chicagofinance says:

    My nephew is a freshman at Washington College….they just closed the school until after Thanksgiving…..
    http://gawker.com/washington-college-shutting-down-for-another-10-days-wh-1743500846

  67. Libturd in Union says:

    Eddie. You must be referring to the Porkulous program which was supposed to get us out of the Great Recession. I recall there being money earmarked for wooden arrows and to save birds in the San Francisco Bay. Not sure how that would generate jobs, but then again, Obamacare was supposed to get control over health care costs. Meanwhile, mine are higher than ever. On the bright side, Jose now has coverage for a preexisting condition. Wait.

  68. daddyo says:

    Scotch Plains is great, but the commute will devour your soul. I commute from Westfield into the City, and it’s horrible. I probably average 1.5hours, and that’s not 1.5hours of comfortable sitting and reading. And that’s assuming nice weather, and sunny.

    Other than that it’s a great town. I would probably stick to the east side of town, over the west side.

  69. The Great Pumpkin says:

    You can’t make this stuff up. You guys are going to justify extortion because it’s only a little amount. Just imagine if they are ripping off property taxes, which no one is able to get out of, what they are doing with all their other taxes. You think property taxes are the only avenue being taken advantage of by these con artists?

    Why do I have to pay for the sand of some millionaire at the beach? It’s his property, I can’t access it, so why should I subsidize it? Also, why should I subsidize some rich guy’s property tax bill for land HE OWNS. I don’t get to use it, so why should I help someone that is 1000 times wealthier than me pay for it?

    Why should I pay for the massive military complex that I don’t use or benefit from? This is the same idea about public education and welfare. I don’t use it, so why should I pay for it. If you are going to bitch about public education and welfare, you better start first with the military. That’s a much more expensive program. How much has been wasted in the middle east? Yet, I never ever hear right wing republicans bitch about the waste in the military. NEVER! Why? Why is one program considered wasteful and another not? You can’t have it both ways, yet that’s the message they continuously send.

    A bunch of clowns picking on and blaming poor people for their problems.

    homeboken says:
    November 19, 2015 at 12:18 pm
    I find it very troubling that folks like Doherty from Warren County and many folks on this board seem to focus on how much others are paying and pointing out that it is too low.

    Can we please stop trying to point out that someone else pays too little and that they should be paying more? How about we all focus on the fact that we have a spending problem, a MASSIVE spending problem. If the Doherty character is successful and gets Fulops taxes raised, who cares? Who benefits. Not me, Not you, not Doherty. Same for the farmland assessment, I agree that it is scam, but if we wipe it out, so what? My taxes aren’t going down because of that.

    I really can’t beleive that we are all pointing to the loop-holes that others exploit. Can we focus on the total waste of the money once it gets into the state coffes?

  70. joyce says:

    48
    Xolepa,

    “The reason the farmland exemptions were put in place was to prevent NJ from being carved up into 1/3 acre lots across the state, which would have happened by now if the exemption didn’t exist.”

    Zoning laws and regulations, that have nothing to do with farming, prevent me from doing all sorts of things on my property. You’ve posted countless times how your town implemented a minimum amount of acreage for a standard lot (way more than 1/3 of an acre) and they didn’t need the farmland exemption to do it.

    “No old-time farmer would have been able to pay full value on the land [without the exemption.”

    A lot of older individuals (median and below) can’t afford their property taxes. So what.

  71. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Yes, the healthcare industry figured out how to get out of the loses that come with dealing with emergency care patients with no insurance. Yes, they pushed it onto you by lobbying the govt to come up with this bs program. Vote sanders in and get a single payer health care system so that we can end this corrupt madness of privatizing the profits and socializing the loses.

    Libturd in Union says:
    November 19, 2015 at 12:36 pm
    Eddie. You must be referring to the Porkulous program which was supposed to get us out of the Great Recession. I recall there being money earmarked for wooden arrows and to save birds in the San Francisco Bay. Not sure how that would generate jobs, but then again, Obamacare was supposed to get control over health care costs. Meanwhile, mine are higher than ever. On the bright side, Jose now has coverage for a preexisting condition. Wait.

  72. joyce says:

    “How is it conservative to add a trillion dollars in military expenditures? – Rand Paul

  73. joyce says:

    Ps. I will never vote for Rand Paul (or any of them).

  74. Juice Box says:

    Local Zoning has nothing to do with it. Look up the Right to Farm Act and other laws enacted by NJ Legislature.

    Here is a decent write up.

    http://www.nj.com/morris/index.ssf/2014/10/girls_death_creates_flashpoint_between_farms_and_local_control.html

  75. The Great Pumpkin says:

    lol…yup

    Marilyn says:
    November 19, 2015 at 12:34 pm
    41 What does it say about the other half?

  76. grim says:

    Right to Farm also being abused, this has nothing to do with running roadside amusement parks and retail operations disguised as a “farm”.

  77. Xolepa says:

    (70) The difference is that when a poor farmer can’t keep up with taxes he/she sells to a developer who in turns subdivides the property, build cookie-cutter homes, makes millions, and sticks the municipalities with even higher tax bills for schooling, police, etc. Happened in Branchburg in the 80s.

    Major difference on my end.

  78. Libturd in Union says:

    Trust me. A shorter commute is worth the world around here. It really doesn’t matter how spacious the parks are how large your houses lot is if you are never home to enjoy it.

  79. Juice Box says:

    re # 76 – Grim courts say different. Who are we to argue?

  80. Libturd in Union says:

    Last time I went to Wightman’s Farm it too was a clusterfcuk of traffic. What they charged for hayrides was criminal too.

  81. Juice Box says:

    re: – #78 – re: “A shorter commute is worth the world around here.”

    Only 15 more years until the one seat ride bullet train ride into Christie Station. (Formerly Moynihan Station).

    http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2015/10/02/officials_want_to_accelerate_new_hudson_river_tunnel_plans.php

  82. joyce says:

    Who approves the subdivision plans?

    Xolepa says:
    November 19, 2015 at 1:07 pm
    (70) The difference is that when a poor farmer can’t keep up with taxes he/she sells to a developer who in turns subdivides the property, build cookie-cutter homes, makes millions, and sticks the municipalities with even higher tax bills for schooling, police, etc. Happened in Branchburg in the 80s.

    Major difference on my end.

  83. D-FENS says:

    Only rich people with fake farms and poor residents of Abbott districts will be left in the state someday.

  84. Libturd in Union says:

    I’ve shared this story before. When the Montclair Connection was built, it promised a one-seat ride into Penn Station in under 30 minutes from Montclair. I still have the original timetables at home where this is stated. The 8:21 from Bay Street (the eastern most station in Montclair) is supposed to arrive at 8:59. It actually gets in at 9:05 on the best of days. 44 minutes to go 12 miles. I feel for those further up the line.

  85. Libturd in Union says:

    “Only rich people with fake farms and poor residents of Abbott districts will be left in the state someday.”

    Truer words have not been uttered here.

  86. jcer says:

    84, I’m always astounded at the slow speed of all NY metro commuter trains(NJT being the worst, followed by LIRR, and then Metro North). My sister lived in London for a while out it herfordshire, which was litterally surrounded by farmland 25-30 miles outside of London, their commuter trains do 80 miles per hour, time to central London, 25 minutes. Even outside of Rome, which is in Italy, poster child for government disfunction, you can live out by the beach in Ladispoli some 50 km away and get to central Rome on a train in 20 minutes. But here in the richest country in the world 12 miles in 45 minutes!

  87. Comrade Nom Deplume, the anon-tidote says:

    [31] Eddie

    “A disaster that will go down in flames. An unmitigated failure from conception.”

    Obamacare was designed to fail. That much has been discussed on this board for the past 5 years. Even if it worked as intended (which requires several huge leaps of faith), it would still collapse from its own weight, and there, waiting in the wings would be . . . .

    Wait for it . . . .

    Single Payer!!!

  88. Libturd in Union says:

    Single payer could probably work, but only if it wasn’t run by our government.

  89. jcer says:

    87 if obinationcare was designed to fail why would the solution be single payer? I’d think the discourse would swing back the other way to keep the government out of healthcare, would it not? Nobody wants to say it but the O man is crooked, he had all the votes to make a real change and instead delivers something written by the insurance companies. Why go through this charade, why not just institute single payer to begin, the support from the populous wouldn’t have been much different and at the end of the day the liberals get exactly what they wanted.

  90. Comrade Nom Deplume, the anon-tidote says:

    [88] libturd

    without tort reform and depending on how it is implemented, brace yourself for a national doctor’s strike.

    And in a wonderful piece of timing, this posted today:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-junior-doctors-have-overwhelmingly-voted-to-strike-next-month-a6740201.html

  91. jcer says:

    88 the logical thing would have been to create choice, allow people to purchase a health plan from the government, and have the government be the provider of healthcare to the uninsurable instead of driving up everyone else’s premiums.

  92. Comrade Nom Deplume, the anon-tidote says:

    [90] redux

    BTW, if there is a massive doctor strike in Britain, I expect that will be a talking point in the election here, and may prove fatal for single payer anytime soon.

    Ok, lunch break over. Back to battling the IRS.

  93. jcer says:

    88, single payer works great in Italy and France, but doctors are paid less and frankly their governments seem more effective than ours, so I agree with your doubts about our government being able t0 run it.

  94. 1987 Condo says:

    #88..I harken to the early 1990’s, when “HIPCs” were going to be the answer…I was at Pru Healthcare and we were meeting to figure out how to derail, sorry, provide input into the process, when the Execs realized we would probably be a HIPC and do very well.

  95. 1987 Condo says:

    Where is JJ?

  96. Libturd in Union says:

    “Where is JJ?”

    Vidalia harvesting season.

  97. Splat Mofo says:

    Chi (66)-

    If that kid’s still at large, somebody tell him I have a grenade launcher I’ll part with for cheap…

  98. nwnj3 says:

    Are you kidding? Of course Doherty is right. Hoboken, Jersey City and any other city giving abatements while at the same time taking state money to run their schools are thieves.

    Fulop is paying 7k on a 700k place while most of the state is paying 7k on a 300k place. Who do you think is subsidizing these crooks?

    As a matter of a fact abolish all Abbotts an let these cities pay their own freight. The money we are flushing down the corruption toilet on those POSes could be spent better in an infinite number of ways or better yet don’t collect it at all.

    homeboken says:

    November 19, 2015 at 12:18 pm

    I find it very troubling that folks like Doherty from Warren County and many folks on this board seem to focus on how much others are paying and pointing out that it is too low.

    Can we please stop trying to point out that someone else pays too little and that they should be paying more? How about we all focus on the fact that we have a spending problem, a MASSIVE spending problem. If the Doherty character is successful and gets Fulops taxes raised, who cares? Who benefits. Not me, Not you, not Doherty. Same for the farmland assessment, I agree that it is scam, but if we wipe it out, so what? My taxes aren’t going down because of that.

    I really can’t beleive that we are all pointing to the loop-holes that others exploit. Can we focus on the total waste of the money once it gets into the state coffes?

  99. nwnj3 says:

    Farmland assessment is a scam. Farmland and open space preservation however are not, they are a big quality of life improvement.

  100. jcer says:

    98, the abatements are about revitalizing downtrodden areas, yes they should not be giving them out anymore in areas no longer in need of incentives but everything JC and Hoboken are today is because of the PILOTS without them they would not be as redeveloped as they are. It is a tough sell to have to pay big property taxes for no services, cannot use the schools, you aren’t getting trash, and the PD isn’t going to even come when called.

  101. jcer says:

    I think the farmland assessment should stay as well, lets not over develop. Is it abused? Yes but we need it anyway.

  102. nwnj3 says:

    #100

    Why the f*ck do I care if the water front in jersey city is redeveloped? I don’t but apparently have to pay for it anyway. I’d like someone else to build a subsidized swimming pool in my suburban town but I don’t that will happen. We don’t have the machine needed to grease all of the open palms.

  103. nwnj3 says:

    Farmland assessment I could live with if they just closed some of the blatant loopholes.

  104. grim says:

    Farmland assessment has nothing to do with preserving farmland, that was never the intention. It was to keep the BUSINESS of farming economical, given rising property taxes.

    A hobby farm on 5 acres was never the intention of the law, in most of these cases these lot sizes and uses are restricted by zoning.

  105. Juice Box says:

    re: Where is JJ.

    He is in Hong Kong right now setting things straight.

    http://tinyurl.com/nmxz5qx

  106. Juice Box says:

    re # 105 – Grim the courts says otherwise, it is up the legislature to address it, and they did with in 2013 with window dressing which Christie signed into law.

  107. jcer says:

    102, the economic development is a huge net positive in a state with an economy that is basically in collapse. If NJ could bring vibrancy to it’s urban centers the economic situation in this state would improve. Think about tax revenue and business activity, also think about the fact that most residents on the waterfront came from NYC and now are paying taxes and spending money in NJ. We need to promote economic activity in this state, especially in areas with infrastructure that is underused.

  108. nwnj3 says:

    #107

    That’s not clear to me at all, I would need to see the numbers. The abatements and tax credits are hundreds of millions per year. It looks more like a case of government picking winners to me

    the economic development is a huge net positive

  109. nwnj3 says:

    BTW, called this just after the attacks and the blowback began.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/democrats-just-delivered-huge-blow-193742129.html

  110. leftwing says:

    Phoenix:

    “LW,
    Looks to me you blame the school for everything and not accept the fact it is a social/personal issue. I’ll give you a bucket– no, I’ll upgrade you to a front end loader, nahh 10 front end loaders- go put the sand back into the ocean. Let me know how you make out….”

    We are in agreement. I am saying shut down the frontloaders.

    And ‘they’ are the self serving politicians and their ilk.

    Anon: NP. Pull out of Iraq. Should never have been there in the first place. Seem to recall in the last day or so I saw a figure of $1.7T spent there in 14 years. F’ing disgrace.

    Homeboken, 60, post of the day.

  111. leftwing says:

    Grim, any data on the median size of a farmland assessed lot?

    Agree that a lot that otherwise could not be subdivided (eg, 5 acre property in Mendham set up for horses) should not have this assessment.

    Sizable lots that could be subdivided…the math is overwhelming for the owner to sell and develop. If a farmland assessment helps prevent it that is a heck of a lot cheaper and a lot more efficient than using Green Acre funds to accomplish the same purpose.

  112. The Great Pumpkin says:

    You want to preserve farmland, than donate it to the govt with a clause stating that it can never be used for anything, but a nature preserve. You can’t OWN the property and at the same time expect the rest of the population to subsidize it. That’s crazy talk.

    leftwing says:
    November 19, 2015 at 4:14 pm
    Grim, any data on the median size of a farmland assessed lot?

    Agree that a lot that otherwise could not be subdivided (eg, 5 acre property in Mendham set up for horses) should not have this assessment.

    Sizable lots that could be subdivided…the math is overwhelming for the owner to sell and develop. If a farmland assessment helps prevent it that is a heck of a lot cheaper and a lot more efficient than using Green Acre funds to accomplish the same purpose.

  113. The Great Pumpkin says:

    That’s the bottom line. Sort of like Reagan is the hero of conservatives yet he took the national debt to unheard of levels.

    “Ronald Reagan: Added $1.86 trillion, 186% increase to the $998 billion debt level at the end of Carter’s last budget, FY 1981.”

    “George H.W. Bush: Added $1.554 trillion, a 54% increase to the $2.8 trillion debt level at the end of Reagan’s last budget, FY 1989.”

    “Bill Clinton: Added $1.396 trillion, a 32% increase to the $4.4 trillion debt level at the end of Bush’s last budget, FY 1993.”

    “George W. Bush: Added $5.849 trillion, a 101% increase to the $5.8 trillion debt level at the end of Clinton’s last budget, FY 2001.”

    “Barack Obama: Added $6.167 trillion, a 53% increase to the $11.657 trillion debt level attributable to President Bush at the end of his last budget, FY 2009.”

    http://useconomy.about.com/od/usdebtanddeficit/p/US-Debt-by-President.htm

    joyce says:
    November 19, 2015 at 12:51 pm
    “How is it conservative to add a trillion dollars in military expenditures? – Rand Paul

  114. The Great Pumpkin says:

    113- Proof is in the pudding. Conservative my a$$. Look who raised the debts by the highest percentages…….yup, the so called conartists, I meant conservatives. So republicans make the debt and cutting costs a part of their platform during election, and then go do the exact opposite. If you are truly conservative, based on the stats, you were much better off voting democrat. They would have given you less spending. Politics is a beautiful thing, isn’t it?

  115. Xolepa says:

    (113) Reagan didn’t ratchet the level of debt. It was the Democratic congress at that time that did the bidding. Please remind yourself of the 3 branches of government.

  116. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Excuses. I can say then say obama’s debt was driven by republican congress.

    What’s the problem, the data is smacking you in the face so hard that it is knocking you off what you thought was your high horse position in this game of red and blue? Conservatives can do no wrong, right?

    Now come to your senses and vote for neither by voting for Bernie Sanders. F the economics or social position of Bernie, and focus first on ending corruption. That’s our biggest problem. Only chance to get back to the America we all want and love is to start with Bernie. Once he fixes the corruption, than we can vote someone else in that agrees more with your free market beliefs, but first, let’s concentrate on getting someone in to fix the got damn corruption. The democrats and republicans don’t have the answer because they are the problem, so put Bernie in to fix this got damn mess. Don’t worry about anything else, just worry about one problem at a time. Right now, corruption is numero uno. Look at the got damn income inequality. That can only happen under rigged conditions. So enough with the demorcrat and republican bs and do something to fix this mess by voting for Bernie.

    Xolepa says:
    November 19, 2015 at 4:42 pm
    (113) Reagan didn’t ratchet the level of debt. It was the Democratic congress at that time that did the bidding. Please remind yourself of the 3 branches of government

  117. Comrade Nom Deplume and His Amazing Trick Back says:

    [116] pumps,

    Xolepa was simply pointing out your oversimplistic analysis that relies on correlation rather than causation, doesn’t appreciate process or the distinctions therein, and bases conclusions on the rudest of syllogisms.

    Like you, I believe that xolepa shouldn’t have said anything.

    If his point was to inform us that there was more there than you considered, that wasn’t necessary. We get it.

    If his point was to point out the weakness in your argument (?) and examples, that was also unnecessary. We get it.

  118. Comrade Nom Deplume and His Amazing Trick Back says:

    Oh, come on. It’s New Jersey’s only remaining export.

    http://www.planetizen.com/node/72057

  119. joyce says:

    Your statements are accurate; however, it boils down to the seen vs unseen. No one can know what activity would have been generated if the money wasn’t taken from A and given to B, but rather stayed with A.

    jcer says:
    November 19, 2015 at 2:41 pm
    98, the abatements are about revitalizing downtrodden areas, yes they should not be giving them out anymore in areas no longer in need of incentives but everything JC and Hoboken are today is because of the PILOTS without them they would not be as redeveloped as they are. It is a tough sell to have to pay big property taxes for no services, cannot use the schools, you aren’t getting trash, and the PD isn’t going to even come when called.

  120. The Great Pumpkin says:

    What’s the difference between red and blue besides the vomit they spew during election season or when they are in front of a camera?

    Comrade Nom Deplume and His Amazing Trick Back says:
    November 19, 2015 at 5:40 pm
    [116] pumps,

    Xolepa was simply pointing out your oversimplistic analysis that relies on correlation rather than causation, doesn’t appreciate process or the distinctions therein, and bases conclusions on the rudest of syllogisms.

    Like you, I believe that xolepa shouldn’t have said anything.

    If his point was to inform us that there was more there than you considered, that wasn’t necessary. We get it.

    If his point was to point out the weakness in your argument (?) and examples, that was also unnecessary. We get it.

  121. Marilyn says:

    3 months out and still no regrets. Liking it more and more. We shall see as time keeps going. My gym partner is a girl who came back from Iraq!! I have been making friends so much easier here in NC. So still happy. Got my electric bill and gas bill and almost broke out in hysterics, 3800 square foot home, running massive amounts of stuff, 125 dollars. Now imagine if I tried to conserve. Its very different here. More freedom, 2 days come pick up your hand gun permit. So that’s the next adventure, the hand gun. Im finally enjoying some freedom. No cops taking radar in every little corner here either.

  122. Marilyn says:

    Not coming up to NJ to see Dad for the Holidays either. Or in laws, dad in Paramus, inlaws in Old Tappan. No rush to come back. However will head up to NJ in the summer. One thing is I do miss is some of my friends at the gym said its not the same without me. That pulled on my heart a bit. I would go in there and give huge speechs on stuff so I guess they miss my big mouth.

  123. Marilyn says:

    I am so looking forward to the new taxes in NJ. I have no problem, hey it helps the poor.

  124. Marilyn says:

    friend still trying to see my old house. We shall see who wants to be in Lake Foreclosure.

  125. Marilyn says:

    sell I meant sorry

  126. Juice Box says:

    Gotta love it when the telemarketers for the whatever benevolent associations hang up on you. At least three calls this week each and every one hung up, and I didn’t even ask what they were wearing.

  127. Juice Box says:

    Marilyn – I’ll bite, did you figure out the whole southern hospitality yet?

  128. Juice Box says:

    Latest South Park crushes it yet again. VIA could bounce in price.

  129. The Great Pumpkin says:

    “But Baker and other analysts say Kansas’ five-year experiment with Laffer’s theories has been a disaster by most measures. The Sunflower State lags behind its peers in job creation, tax revenue is far short of expectations and its bond and credit ratings have been downgraded, mostly because rating agencies say the tax breaks are unsustainable and the promised economic growth almost never happens.

    “I think it’s curious. [GOP leaders] just refuse to look at the evidence,” he says, citing the work of former Congressional Budget Office chief Douglas Elmendorf, whom congressional-majority Republicans fired late last year, purportedly for questioning Laffer-curve economics. GOP lawmakers wanted him to score federal spending cuts as stimulating the economy instead of negatively affecting future budgets.

    “Doug when he was head of CBO was trying to be an honest economist,” Baker says. “But I don’t think any economist can criticize [Laffer] from the right.”

    Meg Wiehe, state tax policy director at the nonpartisan Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, says Kansas’ tax cuts are “definitely the number-one reason the state faces a big budget gap.” And in Wisconsin, she adds, it is that, as the national recession ended and state revenues ticked up, Walker “enacted some permanent tax cuts” instead of paying off debt, investing in education or infrastructure or setting the money aside in a rainy-day fund.

    “We saw this in a lot of states: this sort of run to ‘Oh, my God, we have a [revenue] surplus coming in! Let’s blow it all on tax cuts!'” Wiehe says. “There are multiple problems with that,” including budget forecasts built on economic expectations that, in general, don’t pay off.

    [OPINION: Kansas’ Tax Cut Disaster ]

    “I think that forecasting is not a science, it’s an art,” says Wiehe, “and it’s one that can be manipulated” so that the numbers match rosy estimates, and the proverbial rainy day never happens. “I think there’s been a lot of blue-sky thinking.”

    By contrast, Wiehe and others say, Minnesota has generally refuted Laffer’s theory.

    Even though Walker and Minnesota Gov. Mark Dayton, a Democrat, took office at the same time, they took their states down different paths. Rather than cut taxes and slash spending to balance out-of-whack budgets, Dayton and the state legislature hiked taxes, albeit modestly, on upper-income earners, closed corporate tax loopholes and made badly-needed investments in education and infrastructure.

    The moves are paying off: in addition to having a budget surplus, Minnesota so far has outperformed Wisconsin on job creation, has a lower unemployment rate and is ranked higher on national lists of best places to live.

    All of which should make for a cautionary tale for national voters who may have to choose between Walker, Christie or even Jindal when the 2016 race begins in earnest. And, as Skinner writes, voters ignore their state’s fiscal records – and the records of other Republican governors who have followed the same philosophy – at their peril.

    “Few issues unite the GOP like tax cuts,” he writes. “Tax policy is an important part of any candidate’s platform, and if a Republican is elected, whatever tax plan he or she endorses in the campaign has a decent chance of becoming law in 2017.” ”

    http://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2015/05/29/republicans-have-become-the-party-of-red-ink

  130. leftwing says:

    ” You can’t OWN the property and at the same time expect the rest of the population to subsidize it. That’s crazy talk.”

    Hey Pumps, you mean like the house you have a mortgage on, LOLOL.

    It’s not even fun any more. Too easy……

  131. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Nice try, but fail. Let’s try to compare apples to apples, or you end up looking desperate, drowning in your attempt to be right.

    leftwing says:
    November 19, 2015 at 7:52 pm
    ” You can’t OWN the property and at the same time expect the rest of the population to subsidize it. That’s crazy talk.”

    Hey Pumps, you mean like the house you have a mortgage on, LOLOL.

    It’s not even fun any more. Too easy……

  132. The Great Pumpkin says:

    “President Reagan repeatedly called for a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution, yet never submitted a balanced budget himself. Many blame the Democratic Congress for the “big spending” during his administration. The facts are that Reagan was able to push his tax cuts through Congress, but he never pushed through his reduced spending programs. His weak leadership in this area makes him directly responsible for the unprecedented debt increase that took place during his time in office. The debt increased at an average of 13.8% for every year Reagan was in office, the highest average of any President since this nation was founded, and he still holds that record. From 1983 through 1985 the debt was increasing at over 17% per year. While Reagan was in office this nation’s debt went from just under 1 trillion dollars to over 2.6 trillion dollars, a 260% increase. The sad part about this increase is that it was not to educate our children, or to improve our infrastructure, or to help the poor, or even to finance a war. Reagan’s enormous increase in the national debt was not to pay for any noble cause at all; his primary un-apologetic goal was to pad the pockets of the rich. The huge national debt we have today is a living legacy to his failed Conservative economic policies. This unwanted weight continues as an onerous burden on this nations financial resources.”

  133. The Great Pumpkin says:

    “Since 1938 the Democrats have held the White house for 35 years, the Republicans for 31. Over that time the national debt has increased at an average annual rate of 8.9%. The Democratic yearly average (that is the years Democrats were in the White House) was an increase of 8.7%. The years while the Republicans ran the White House, during this same period; the debt increased an average 9.1% per year. Those averages are pretty close.

    If you look at the debt starting with Truman’s term (and remove Roosevelt’s WWII debt) the difference between the two parties contributions to our national debt level change considerably. Since 1946 the Democratic Presidents increased the national debt an average of only 3.7% per year when they were in office. The Republican Presidents stay at an average increase of 9.1% per year. Over the last 57 years Republican Presidents have out borrowed Democratic Presidents by more than a two to one ratio. That is, for every dollar a Democratic President has raised the national debt in the past 57 years Republican Presidents have raised the debt by $2.47.

    Prior to the Conservative take over of the Republican Party there was not much difference between the two parties debt philosophy, they both worked together to minimize it. However the debt has been on a steady incline ever since the Reagan Presidency. The only exception to the steep increase over the last 23 was during the Clinton Presidency, where he brought spending under control and the debt growth down to almost zero.

    Comparing the borrowing habits of the two parties since 1981, when the Conservative movement really took hold, it is extremely obvious that the big spenders in Washington are Republican Presidents. Looking at the only Democratic President since 1981, Clinton, who raised the national debt an average of 4.3% per year; the Republican Presidents (Reagan, Bush, and Bush) raised the debt an average of 10.8% per year. That is, for every dollar a Democratic President has raised the national debt in the past 23 years Republican Presidents have raised the debt by $2.52. Any way you look at it Conservative Republican Presidents can not control government spending, yet as the graph above clearly shows, Clinton did.”

  134. leftwing says:

    Nope.

    Nice try you at evasion. It is apples-to-apples. Answer the question pumps. You’re subsidized like the rest of them, babeee!! Caaaraaazzzzzeeee talk!!

    leftwing says:
    November 19, 2015 at 7:52 pm
    ” You can’t OWN the property and at the same time expect the rest of the population to subsidize it. That’s crazy talk.”

    Hey Pumps, you mean like the house you have a mortgage on, LOLOL.

    It’s not even fun any more. Too easy……

  135. chicagofinance says:

    sometimes you just have to tip your cap….
    “…..but Robinson Cano was the single worst third-place, every-day player I’ve ever seen – I’ve ever seen for the first half of a baseball season. He couldn’t drive home Miss Daisy if he tried….” Andy Van Slyke

  136. Marilyn says:

    Hi Juice, yes I have figured out the whole Southern Hospitality thing. Here is the key, when they invite you to Church, tell them you already joined the New Age Quantum Physics Christianity Church. Its new age. Ohh those Baptists consider this worse than homosexuality.

  137. Marilyn says:

    Honestly Juice I meet very few Southerners here in Raleigh. I wish I would meet more of them. They are all from somewhere other than the South.

  138. leftwing says:

    For Joyce

    I’ve always had the question of what an officer needs to do to get suspended without pay since many of their actions, in the real world, would have them terminated on the spot rather than being given desk duty.

    A NJ Trooper was driving drunk on duty and hit a citizen’s car.

    He wins the prize. Personal injury DWI while on duty and in a cruiser with double the limit buys you suspension without pay.

    Still seem to think if it were me in a company car somehow I wouldn’t have a job the next day…..

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