Armageddon for NJ

From the APP:

NJ suburbs: Endangered because of millennials?

New Jersey’s suburbs, with their sprawling single-family homes and regional malls built to attract baby boomers, need to be re-engineered for a new generation that wants to ditch its cars and walk, experts say.

Despite reams of demographic data, real estate developers and mayors say the turnaround hasn’t been easy. Not-in-my-backyard residents aren’t shy about voicing concerns about noise and traffic new development can bring.

“The state of New Jersey has to recognize they’re facing a land-use apocalypse,” said Carl Goldberg, a real estate consultant and former chairman of the New Jersey Sports and Exposition Authority.

Goldberg was one of several experts who spoke recently at Monmouth University’s Kisalk Real Estate Institute’s forum titled: “The Future of New Jersey’s Suburbs.”

The event came as builders try to make New Jersey hip and cool enough to attract the giant millennial generation that has made it clear: A suburban life with a large home and long commute to an office park isn’t as idyllic as it once sounded.

“Many of our 20th century assumptions about growth and development have been made obsolete,” Rutgers University economist James W. Hughes said.

The result: From 1950 to 2004, New Jersey added 29 jobs for every one job added in New York City. From 2004 to 2015, New York City added 29 jobs for every one job in New Jersey, Hughes said.

Millennials “look for where they want to live and then think about a job,” said Geoff Anderson, president and chief executive officer of Smart Growth America, a Washington, D.C., research group. “Who does that?”

This entry was posted in Demographics, Economics, New Jersey Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

102 Responses to Armageddon for NJ

  1. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  2. Fast Eddie says:

    So, if the rent and overhead cost is significantly reduced in the 287 corridor as opposed to the city, you’re telling me they won’t attract candidates?

  3. D-FENS says:

    500 Students in a One-Room School: Fallout of New Jersey’s Funding Woes

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/14/nyregion/new-jersey-school-funding.html?_r=1

    Some districts in the state, however, are actually overfunded. Places like Jersey City, Hoboken and Asbury Park — cities that have gentrified — are receiving more money than they are owed from the state. A loophole in the formula allows those cities to continue getting the same aid even after the student population has shrunk or property tax revenue increases.

  4. grim says:

    Jersey City and Hoboken are like 8 year olds who are still breast feeding.

    Sorry Montclair, didn’t mean to offend.

  5. The Great Pumpkin says:

    I don’t quite understand this opening article’s mindset. Do they really think “all millennials” don’t want a car and want to walk around? Wtf are these people pushing? They are just shoving this garbage down our throat. Is this a conspiracy being pushed by developers through the media so that they can push these rental developments in communities made up of single family OWNED homes? Are they trying to create a generation of renters made up predominately of almost all renters and a few owners? I just don’t get it. Why are they trying to make everyone live in a city? Why?

  6. Grim says:

    Mixed-use islands are a shit idea, frankly, and are no comparison to real honest Downtown/Main Street redevelopments.

    A Panera and a Dry Cleaner on the first floor of a monolithic people warehouse in the middle of nowhere is not what anyone is looking for.

  7. Yo! says:

    Grim, when do Hoboken and downtown JC hit ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS per square foot? 2017, 2018, or 2019?

  8. grim says:

    The problem is, to rebuild the downtowns will cause massive uproar in NJ, because it’s going to mean eminent domain and investing in neighborhoods that most don’t care about.

    Bloomfield Ave corridor in Bloomfield for example, Main Ave corridor through Clifton and Passaic, Paterson Downtown around Paterson Station.

    Rutherford completely prime for massive teardown redevelopment and build-out of the downtown.

    Bayonne – big time prime.

    Dozens of mid-small size downtowns in BC are prime for mid-rise redevelopment.

  9. The Great Pumpkin says:

    It’s pretty disgusting to see these numbers in an “Abbott” district.

    Yo! says:
    May 15, 2017 at 8:40 am
    Grim, when do Hoboken and downtown JC hit ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS per square foot? 2017, 2018, or 2019?

  10. Ottoman says:

    About a month or two ago claims were made that millenials preferring to gravitate toward urban walkable centers was a myth. Pretty sure an article to that effect was posted here. So getting your panties in a bunch over any of this is silly. There may be more millenials who move to cities/train towns because they have been revitalized over the past 10 years (mostly not by millenials) and there may be more millenials who do that simply because its the largest demographic of people and its just going to look like they are.

  11. Steamy Cankles Foundation says:

    Montclair’s former Mayor Jerry “the b00b” Fried would always talk about how parking decks weren’t necessary as everyone in the future would walk or ride their bicycles to work and to shop. I asked him for some examples, and of course, they were all in much warmer and less people dense climates and locales. He then passed the dumbest bike locker ordinance ever. While mayor, he wanted to make one of our 3 major North/South thoroughfares bike only. Of course, his crystal ball so far has turned out to be completely false, but he did he end up with a fancy job wasting our tax dollars at the DOT on this krap.

    http://njbikeped.org/staff/jerry-fried/

  12. Juice Box says:

    re: Mixed use. I haven’t been off exit 172 in a while, it has changed quite a bit up there off Chestnut Ridge Road, I drive over to Montvale as well. I was shocked to see there weren’t five floors of condos being built above that new development “The Shoppes at DePiero Farm”.

    224,000 sq ft shopping center with a Wegmans. Traffic was bad enough yesterday on Grand Avenue heading east. I can imagine it will be road rage in the evenings during the week that one lane windy road wasn’t built for any kind of traffic volume.

  13. Ottoman says:

    The Hills in Bedminster is a mixed use people warehouse in the middle of nowhere that seems to be doing just fine.

    But more to your specific example, “downtown” Robbinsville also seems to be going strong. Though if Trenton finally turns around that might change. Garwood, Fanwood, and Somerville have all gone that people warehouse route and been able to work through the drama of revitalizing a stagnant downtown that you predict. And they still don’t have trains to NY yet. Morristown also tore down half the green and still managed to maintain its character. Newark has that Whole Foods.

    Grim says:
    May 15, 2017 at 8:18 am
    Mixed-use islands are a shit idea, frankly, and are no comparison to real honest Downtown/Main Street redevelopments.

    A Panera and a Dry Cleaner on the first floor of a monolithic people warehouse in the middle of nowhere is not what anyone is looking for.

  14. Steamy Cankles Foundation says:

    I forgot to mention that if you ride your bicycle in town and it’s not registered, you could face a $2,000 fine and 90 days of community service.

    Multifamily residential design.

    (3) In addition to any storage area contained inside individual dwelling units, there shall be provided for each dwelling unit 200 feet of storage area in a convenient, centrally located area in the basement or ground floor of the existing dwelling structure or elsewhere where personal belongings and effects may be stored without constituting a fire hazard and where the said belongings and effects may be kept locked and separated from the belongings of other occupants. There shall be a further minimum common storage area in each building for bicycles, strollers and similar types of equipment of 50 cubic feet per dwelling unit.

  15. chicagofinance says:

    Does that make Paterson a Costello District? I’m here all week…..

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 15, 2017 at 8:45 am
    It’s pretty disgusting to see these numbers in an “Abbott” district.

    Yo! says:
    May 15, 2017 at 8:40 am
    Grim, when do Hoboken and downtown JC hit ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS per square foot? 2017, 2018, or 2019?

  16. The Great Pumpkin says:

    I think you hit the nail on the head in this post…..”revitalized.” I honestly believe that anything they make “shiny and new” will sell in a market based predominately on old housing stock.

    That’s all this is. The developers have moved away from single family construction because they can make so much more money building condos and townhouses, and then renting it out(make profit off every angle of the deal, from the build to the legacy). So they put these bs articles out acting like they know what millennials want, when in reality, it’s being shoved down millennials throats based on their economic situation. These developers are completely taking advantage of the millennials by throwing them into this situation by not offering new starter homes because of “profit driven agenda.” They are only offering the product that they can make the most money on. Don’t put the other product on the shelf, and instead force them to pay for the only product you are creating. If they do put a single family home on the market, it’s a home where they can sell for one million so that they can get their EXTREME PROFIT. Can’t be building starter homes now can we? What a joke.

    Sad part, I’m sure there is insane demand for a new development of starter homes in nj. Too bad it will never happen.

    Ottoman says:
    May 15, 2017 at 9:14 am
    About a month or two ago claims were made that millenials preferring to gravitate toward urban walkable centers was a myth. Pretty sure an article to that effect was posted here. So getting your panties in a bunch over any of this is silly. There may be more millenials who move to cities/train towns because they have been revitalized over the past 10 years (mostly not by millenials) and there may be more millenials who do that simply because its the largest demographic of people and its just going to look like they are.

  17. NJGator says:

    This may not be technically illegal, but I think it does officially make Rodney Frelinghuysen a certified d*uche,

    Frelinghuysen Targets Activist in Letter to Her Employer

    The most powerful congressman in New Jersey, Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen, wrote a fundraising letter in March to a board member of a local bank, warning him that a member of an activist group opposing the Republican worked at his bank.

    The employee was questioned and criticized for her involvement in NJ 11th for Change, a group that formed after the election of Donald Trump and has been pressuring Frelinghuysen to meet with constituents in his district and oppose the Trump agenda.

    “Needless to say, that did cause some issues at work that were difficult to overcome,” said Saily Avelenda of West Caldwell, New Jersey, who was a senior vice president and assistant general counsel at the bank before she resigned. She says the pressure she received over her political involvement was one of several reasons she decided to leave.

    The form letter, on campaign stationery, asks Frelinghuysen’s supporters to donate two years ahead of his next election because he is under attack. “But let’s be clear that there are organized forces — both national and local — who are already hard at work to put a stop to an agenda of limited government, economic growth, stronger national security,” the letter says.

    Above the word local, there’s a hand-written asterisk in the same blue ink as Frelinghuysen’s signature. At the bottom of the letter, scrawled with a pen, is the corresponding footnote: “P.S. One of the ringleaders works in your bank!”

    http://www.wnyc.org/story/frelinghuysen-targets-activsts-letter-boss/?utm_source=sharedUrl&utm_medium=metatag&utm_campaign=sharedUrl

  18. Fast Eddie says:

    Jersey City and Hoboken are like 8 year olds who are still breast feeding.

    The greatest transfer of wealth ever. The number of multi-millionaires created off the stupid1ty of the young ones is staggering. It’s like they’re walking off a cliff with blinders. Why? Because the path ride is shorter to Manhattan? It’s not because it’s affordable because you can walk to a train from the Bergen, Main and Pascack lines and save yourself a lot of money.

  19. Juice Box says:

    re: “This may not be technically illegal”

    Don’t mess with the family that has a town named after them. The Dutch were the original gangsters in NJ.

  20. Steamy Cankles Foundation says:

    “Jersey City and Hoboken are like 8 year olds who are still breast feeding.”

    I lived in JC back in the 90s. Long before the revitalization. Paulus Hook was just starting to gentrify, the heights were still scary and Journal Square was a mess. We lived off of the Grove Street station because it was cheap! Three guys in a modern row house, 3 BR, 3 BR with private parking and a small deck went for about the same price as the same in Clifton. Might have even been a bit cheaper. I could only imagine what the rent is there now?

  21. Juice Box says:

    Hoboken is cheap compared to NYC. My old place in the “Friends Neighborhood” of the West Village has crazy prices for a very old highrise building with a doorman. About $3500 a month for a tiny studio and almost $5k a month for an 800 sq ft 1 BR. Anything in the newer buildings is even more expensive.

  22. Steamy Cankles Foundation says:

    Just looked it up. $4,300 a month. We paid $1200 a month. When I moved out 1997ish, it went up for sale listed at $125,000. I bid $150, upped it to 175 and lost to a 179K bid. Places are now going for $725K. Wish I had more cash saved up back then, but I simply didn’t. Heck I was making about 28K a year then.

  23. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Crazy!

    Man, you were so close to pretty much hitting the lottery.

    Steamy Cankles Foundation says:
    May 15, 2017 at 10:16 am
    Just looked it up. $4,300 a month. We paid $1200 a month. When I moved out 1997ish, it went up for sale listed at $125,000. I bid $150, upped it to 175 and lost to a 179K bid. Places are now going for $725K. Wish I had more cash saved up back then, but I simply didn’t. Heck I was making about 28K a year then.

  24. The Great Pumpkin says:

    My thoughts exactly. Some really good questions you bring up.

    Fast Eddie says:
    May 15, 2017 at 9:47 am
    Jersey City and Hoboken are like 8 year olds who are still breast feeding.

    The greatest transfer of wealth ever. The number of multi-millionaires created off the stupid1ty of the young ones is staggering. It’s like they’re walking off a cliff with blinders. Why? Because the path ride is shorter to Manhattan? It’s not because it’s affordable because you can walk to a train from the Bergen, Main and Pascack lines and save yourself a lot of money.

    Fast Eddie says:
    May 15, 2017 at 7:04 am
    So, if the rent and overhead cost is significantly reduced in the 287 corridor as opposed to the city, you’re telling me they won’t attract candidates?

  25. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    I forgot to mention that if you ride your bicycle in town and it’s not registered, you could face a $2,000 fine and 90 days of community service.

    I got pulled over on my bike in New Brunswick once because it wasn’t “registered”. My family PBA card ensured it wasn’t taken on the spot. I asked the cop where I should go. And he told me not to worry about it. Just keep that card on me when I ride.

  26. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Indeed!

    NJGator says:
    May 15, 2017 at 9:45 am
    This may not be technically illegal, but I think it does officially make Rodney Frelinghuysen a certified d*uche,

  27. Steamy Cankles Foundation says:

    Lottery is exactly right. At the time. Dumping $200K on a place that rented for $1,200 a month appeared to be the dumbest move ever at the time. Especially considering the high crime, terrible schools, etc.

  28. Steamy Cankles Foundation says:

    It was also located across the street from Dixon Mills which was a very popular factory to condo conversion (had their own gym, social spaces) which would always compete with my place for tenants.

  29. Steamy Cankles Foundation says:

    Plus…I would have never met Bebo!

  30. No One says:

    In Somerville, the people spending the money there are the people who drove in to town from a big house in the suburbs. Most of the people who enjoy the walkability of downtown Somerville are the hobos and the people who live in the rehab houses nearby.
    The new apartments near the Shoprite reminds me of this South Park advertisement:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7Dtn5_F3Us

  31. Gone Goose says:

    New Jersey: A Great Place! To Be From

  32. The Great Pumpkin says:

    That’s the funny part of some of the greatest investments…..originally, they were based on pure stupidity.

    Idea for lottery players based on this logic. Take stocks that people have written off and hate at the moment; put them in a hat, pick one, and buy that stock with whatever money you would have spent on the lottery for that given year. Do this for 10-20 years and you will eventually hit big time. Sure beats the lottery.

    Steamy Cankles Foundation says:
    May 15, 2017 at 10:35 am
    Lottery is exactly right. At the time. Dumping $200K on a place that rented for $1,200 a month appeared to be the dumbest move ever at the time. Especially considering the high crime, terrible schools, etc.

  33. LurksMcGee says:

    The new apartments near the Shoprite reminds me of this South Park advertisement:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7Dtn5_F3Us

    I’ve always found that episode spot on and hilarious. It just shows how impressionable some these millennials are.

    Kinda like the “distressed look” furniture and “gray everything” decor that’s pushed from HGTV. Eventually, people start thinking its THEIR original thought and not what was programmed to them.

  34. D-FENS says:

    Amateur move. Seems an awful lot like a setup. His opponents will do anything to get a Democrat in that seat.

    They are emboldened by the loss of NJ CD-5 to a Democrat.

    NJGator says:
    May 15, 2017 at 9:45 am
    This may not be technically illegal, but I think it does officially make Rodney Frelinghuysen a certified d*uche,

    Frelinghuysen Targets Activist in Letter to Her Employer

  35. The Great Pumpkin says:

    “Tesla may need to raise more capital to pull off a 2017 launch of the mass-market Model 3 and to fund battery, solar and other investments,” Kevin Tynan, a Bloomberg Intelligence analyst, wrote Monday. “The balance sheet is already stretched and Tesla’s shares could be significantly diluted if stock is issued instead of debt.”

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-15/tesla-drops-as-morgan-stanley-warns-of-cash-burn-richer-rivals

  36. Fast Eddie says:

    The moment you see a Whole Foods being built, buy the nearest slop house and flip it the moment the first millennial arrives. Rinse and repeat.

  37. Phoenix says:

    Pumps,
    You are all about capitalism, you stated that in an earlier post. Can’t beat them, join them you said. Later you write this:

    “If they do put a single family home on the market, it’s a home where they can sell for one million so that they can get their EXTREME PROFIT. Can’t be building starter homes now can we? What a joke. ”

    You are part of the problem that you complain about. Makes you a hypocrite.

  38. Phoenix says:

    A suburban life with a large home and long commute to an office park isn’t as idyllicaffordable as it once sounded.

  39. chicagofinance says:

    clot sighting:

    A blood-soaked man entered an Oregon grocery store holding a knife in one hand and what looked like a human head in the other, stabbed a worker and was then subdued, according to reports.

    A woman was later found dead in a case that authorities said was connected to the stabbing at the store, OregonLive.com reported.

    Police responded to a 911 call from the Harvest Market Thriftway in Estacada at 2:14 p.m. Sunday after the man walked in and stabbed an employee.

    Other employees tackled the suspect and held him down until cops arrived, officials said. The condition of the victim, who was flown to a hospital, was not known.

    The suspect was taken to a hospital after being brought into custody, according to Sandy police and the Clackamas County Sheriff’s Office.

    At 2:35 p.m., a 911 caller reported finding the body of a woman inside a home on Elwood Road in Colton, about 10 miles from the store, kgw.com reported.

    Investigators said the woman had died at the home and that the attacker at the grocery store is suspected in her killing.

    The names of the suspect and the victims have not been released.

  40. 3b says:

    When I bought my first house and had my first child we were a one income couple and all of our friends were. It was doable back than not always easy initially but doable. And all of our neighbors were stay at home moms too or worked part time. If I took a day off and went to the park on a nice day it was packed with kids and moms. I do it now and the parks
    Are now empty. It was one thing to have dad do the long commute now it’s both parents. Both parents getting home at 7 or later I don’t know how they can do it. Homework little league games etc. Dinner baths it is tough even with a cleaning service and such. So yes I can see how now how both parents do not want to do a long commute to live in a big house in the suburbs.

  41. D-FENS says:

    The photo is credited to the woman who worked at the bank. Maybe she fished it out of the trash?

    http://www.wnyc.org/story/frelinghuysen-targets-activsts-letter-boss/

  42. The Great Pumpkin says:

    So be it. Kind of hard to survive in a capitalist economic system if you don’t join them. Doesn’t mean I don’t know that capitalism has moral flaws. Doesn’t mean I don’t wish things could be differently. Doesn’t take away my right to point out its inherent flaws.

    I’m also not a developer swimming in more cash than I know what to do with and still ripping people off by forcing them to buy whatever product I market to them. That’s not me.

    Phoenix says:
    May 15, 2017 at 12:16 pm
    Pumps,
    You are all about capitalism, you stated that in an earlier post. Can’t beat them, join them you said. Later you write this:

    “If they do put a single family home on the market, it’s a home where they can sell for one million so that they can get their EXTREME PROFIT. Can’t be building starter homes now can we? What a joke. ”

    You are part of the problem that you complain about. Makes you a hypocrite.

  43. Phoenix says:

    Numbers for the mathematicians on the forum

    How much income to afford a 350k home in NJ? On one income. Keep reserve if breadwinner gets sick, loses job, etc.

    How many kids, divorced, child support, commute to work, tax rate, age, down payment, etc.
    A few years back I applied for disability insurance, private. It was then that I found out that my career choice directly affected my monthly payment, and by no small amount.
    Lawyers, Accountants, Teachers pay much less than construction workers, mechanics and nurses. Those careers have higher injury potential and because of that the premiums are much higher.

    Even if you are not a fan of E.Warren, or call her Pocahontas, her book about the two income trap makes a lot of sense.

    The Two-Income Trap: Why Middle-Class Parents are Going Broke

  44. Phoenix says:

    Pumps,
    Still makes you a hypocrite. It’s the reason that you seem to talk in circles. You know what you are doing is morally wrong, you preach about it, then go and do it anyway.
    Choose a side and stick with it.

  45. Phoenix says:

    Pumps,
    Not only are you pointing out its inherent flaws, you are imbibing in them.

  46. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Now do you see how tough millennials have it and how easy you had it?

    My wife and I work long hours, but we are able to do it with help from her mother watching our child or from other family members in the area. If I lived in hoboken, I would have to pay for the child care myself. I still send her for three half days a week to socialize and learn in a class setting.

    You would be surprised at how many stay at home mom’s are in Wayne. Wayne might not have the housing value of places like Ridgewood, but I kid you not, the majority of families in Wayne have a stay at home mother. You see them walking their children. So they are trading the more affluent zip codes to be a town where they can afford to not work. In other affluent towns, you see Jamaican off the boaters pushing the kids around.

    Also, do you know how much more difficult it is to raise children in the city. If you have a hyper active child, god bless! So many things can go wrong quickly with a child like that in the city. And don’t even get me started on the costs. I’ll take the high taxes that actually provide a discount in comparison to raising a family in the city.

    3b says:
    May 15, 2017 at 12:49 pm
    When I bought my first house and had my first child we were a one income couple and all of our friends were. It was doable back than not always easy initially but doable. And all of our neighbors were stay at home moms too or worked part time. If I took a day off and went to the park on a nice day it was packed with kids and moms. I do it now and the parks
    Are now empty. It was one thing to have dad do the long commute now it’s both parents. Both parents getting home at 7 or later I don’t know how they can do it. Homework little league games etc. Dinner baths it is tough even with a cleaning service and such. So yes I can see how now how both parents do not want to do a long commute to live in a big house in the suburbs.

  47. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Like I said, so be it. I’m a hypocrite, it is what it is. I wish I could change things.

    Phoenix says:
    May 15, 2017 at 1:47 pm
    Pumps,
    Still makes you a hypocrite. It’s the reason that you seem to talk in circles. You know what you are doing is morally wrong, you preach about it, then go and do it anyway.
    Choose a side and stick with it.

  48. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    I stop in Somerville at Division Cafe to get Empanadas to go if I’m in a hurry. They got profiled on NJ.com at some point and all of the sudden, a bunch of brooklyn style hipsters are in line ordering 8 empanadas for the office.

  49. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    “Tesla may need to raise more capital to pull off a 2017 launch of the mass-market Model 3 and to fund battery, solar and other investments,” Kevin Tynan, a Bloomberg Intelligence analyst, wrote Monday. “The balance sheet is already stretched and Tesla’s shares could be significantly diluted if stock is issued instead of debt.”

    Big surprise, at what point do they stop trying to raise capital and actually run a real business instead of the parasitic company they are.

  50. 3b says:

    Pumps. I never said the millennial s did not have it hard. Nor did I say I had it easy initially. We were more willing to sacrifice things than many millennial s are. And we knew how to stretch a buck. Wasn’t all the craft food and beer and all of that. That is the other side of the millennial scale .as for stay at home moms in Wayne I have no idea. I am speaking for my town and friends of mine etc. Then you go off into Wayne and Ridgewood and value and all the rest. My point simply was and remains that many do not want to do the two hour commute. Speaking for myself I am on the train everyday into the city and I am not seeing the young dads I used to see back in the day. It’s just us old guys and women. And some recent grads living at home I suspect. And if Wayne is so affordable why are you two incomes?

  51. 3b says:

    Phoenix the days of the one income family are essentially over in my opinion save for the very wealthy if they chose. Even if you can swing it and the one income person looses their job it’s a huge risk. Especially if the other person was out of the work force for a few years.

  52. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Phoenix, you know what is also sad? Older I get the less fight I have. You can just look at the difference in my postings here from 2013 to now. In my 20’s, I was a full blown activist against the horrors of capitalism. Older I get the more I accept it. I just don’t have a better answer for fixing capitalism. I have ideas, but nothing the owners of capital will accept. They have accumulated so much wealth that it is impossible to go against them.

  53. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Anything past 287 is a terrible commute and the housing prices in places like sparta reflect it. So you are indeed correct that no one wants the long commute. My point was that places within 287 are not a two hour commute and the savings that come from commuting as opposed to living in Hoboken are staggering. You get so much more for your money. People will be attracted to the savings once the gleam of living in “hoboken” wears off, and the realities of raising a family come into play.

    Avg home in Wayne is in the 400’s. We have a dual income so we can get ahead, not worry about money, and eventually get to retire at a decent age.

    3b says:
    May 15, 2017 at 2:17 pm
    Pumps. I never said the millennial s did not have it hard. Nor did I say I had it easy initially. We were more willing to sacrifice things than many millennial s are. And we knew how to stretch a buck. Wasn’t all the craft food and beer and all of that. That is the other side of the millennial scale .as for stay at home moms in Wayne I have no idea. I am speaking for my town and friends of mine etc. Then you go off into Wayne and Ridgewood and value and all the rest. My point simply was and remains that many do not want to do the two hour commute. Speaking for myself I am on the train everyday into the city and I am not seeing the young dads I used to see back in the day. It’s just us old guys and women. And some recent grads living at home I suspect. And if Wayne is so affordable why are you two incomes?

  54. No One says:

    Blue Ribbon Teacher,
    Let me know when you have time and I’ll treat you to lunch in Somerville. Grim can give you my email.

  55. No One says:

    I have best of both worlds. Suburban large home with 4 acres, neighborhood, forest & stream and trails in the back. And 9 minute drive to my suburban office. Only thing that could improve would be to replicate this in another state that isn’t so actively looting its wealth-creating residents.

  56. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    It seems to me like the below average schmuck (pumps) would get herself in even more trouble just trying to buy $300 in bitcoins.

  57. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    “No One” – Oxymoron or just regular moron? (Translation: Stupid or Liar?). Did you forget walkable, cultured, cosmopolitan, and diverse? Idiot.

    Suburban large home with 4 acres, neighborhood,

  58. jcer says:

    3b, that is right it puts a massive amount of stress on the working person. Also lets face it you need to earn a pretty penny(200k+ minimum salary before bonus) to live on one income in the NYC metro area. So while you have a really tough time having both parents working you really cannot take the risk of only having one person working. Fund retirement, 182k left, pay for healthcare now you’re down to 170k, pay for commute 165k, mortgage and taxes on 600k house (45k) now you have 120k, pay 50k in income taxes now there is 70k to live on, food is 7k+ per, by the time you get down to it there isn’t too much left. Don’t get me wrong you won’t be uncomfortable at that salary as a single income but you also aren’t flush.

  59. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    50 acre park-like setting with all the necessary amenities in the best zip code with everything you could possibly want, both urban and suburban just footsteps away, including public transportation. Also low taxes. (aka a tent in Boston Common)

  60. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Beautiful and appointed property in one of the best 7 Counties in NJ. House has a great history of both violence and adultery. Fast commute to anywhere 25-35 miles West of NYC and you can turn your Lamborghini either left or right out of your own custom driveway* and accelerate as fast as you want and never fear a speeding ticket. Call PumpKing Realty for details

    *100 square feet of extra asphalt, for when you convert this property to multi-multi-multi-family (also cuts down on grass that needs to be cut).

  61. 3b says:

    Pumps even the good commutes are longer than people might think. And I have a good one. I leave my office at 5 I am home at 6 15/6 20. Walk to Path train take that to Hoboken. Get train. Train stops in Secaucus. Than 35/40 minutes from there. Than from there drive or walk home. Leave my office at 5 05 I get the next train and home 20 minutes later. So even the good commutes take time when you factor door to door. Now have both parents do that commute everyday and it’s rough.

  62. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Wow PumpKing! How lucky are you that you pay high taxes to live on an extremely busy road an easy 10,000 on the “good” side of the “terrible commute” zone. Your commute must be an easy 2 minutes better than any of your coworkers that sell shoes at Willowbrook mall.

    Hahahahahahahaha

    Anything past 287 is a terrible commute and the housing prices in places like sparta reflect it. So you are indeed correct that no one wants the long commute.

  63. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    10,000 feet, that is.

  64. 3b says:

    Jcer agree. We have told our kids that when the time comes for babies both need to keep jobs. That may be one reason many are having one and done today and waiting until there well into their 30 s or older to have kids.

  65. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    In 1984-88 it used to absolutely p1ss me off that it took me 15 minutes to make my 3 mile commute from Wayne to…Wayne. It’s one of the worst suburban sh1tholes for rush hour commutes. It used to only take me 5 minutes to get home for b0ng hits at lunch time.

    Pumps even the good commutes are longer than people might think.

  66. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    3b – Now translate that same conversation into the black and Hispanic communities. It starts to break down at the word “We”, long before it gets to “keep what? Watchew talkin’ about Phyllis?”.

    We have told our kids that when the time comes for babies both need to keep jobs.

  67. No One says:

    Ha ha Expat. The only thing walkable is going around the subdivision. Not a retailer in sight, just houses and trees and some deer. That’s why I’m old-fashioned and use a car and drive 10 minutes to go buy things. Or buy it online and get it delivered. As for cultured, cosmopolitan, and diverse, that varies from house to house in the neighborhood.
    The key thing that makes this true is not working in NYC. If one works there, it’s a long 90 minute commute each way. Probably getting longer with the failing transport infrastructure.

  68. No One says:

    3b I thought in some communities it works like this: when you’re old enough to get a job, instead start having babies so you can become a public dependent.

  69. LurksMcGee says:

    jcer,

    I appreciate the breakdown, but it sounds like you started to run out of steam to describe how “on the edge” that one income family making 200k was. With 5k PER MONTH of discretionary spending for utilities, car, vacations, etc, I don’t know how that isn’t on the cusp on highly comfortable instead of “not uncomfortable”.

    Also, I’ve always wondered how the places very close to NYC seem to think they need a 600k home when an equivalent home could be had in East Brunswick for much less and damn near the same commute. Its really hard to justify the “it ain’t that much” when a lot of the cost is due to choice.

    You might as well say 400k isn’t much since you have to spend an exorbitant amount on private school tuition.

    Don’t take this as me judging you per se, but I just can’t come to the same conclusion that 200k on a single income isn’t that much to support even a 4-5 person household.

  70. Grim says:

    Plane crash in Teterboro?

  71. Bystander says:

    I support wife and two young kids on less than 200k total. No raise or real bonus this year. You should definitely have some breathing room at that amount if you did not go house crazy. Now, $150k is a struggle. If you pay for health care and max out 401k then after taxes, you are down to $6,500 take home each month. Mortgage, gas, commute, car insurance, medical payments, food, utilities etc etc..it is more than gone. Your wife can’t shop at Theory or hit that hip, new organic cafe for lunch. To some, that might seem like “struggling”.

  72. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Yep. Windows XP-based nav system.

    Plane crash in Teterboro?

  73. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    If you don’t max out your 401K you are losing out big time, especially the over 50 extra contributions. One year I couldn’t afford to max out my 401K, but I figured out how to anyway. I took a $32K loan from my 401K which gave me the cash flow for monthly expenses so that I could up my 401K contributions to still max out. That might sound crazy on the surface, but it has treble benefits:

    1. You maxxed out, so that helps your tax liability.
    2. All of the interest you pay back to yourself.
    3. Here’s the one nobody thinks of: Your payroll deductions to pay back the loan *reduce* the money your spouse has available to spend on stupid sh1t and she gets used to it.

  74. Xolepa says:

    In the early 2000s I commuted from my local train stop in Hunterdon County to Lower Manhattan via path. It took me all of 1 hour and twenty minutes from garage to 2 Chase Plaza. Only 3 or 4 stops then . Now, I hear, it is hell.
    Well, anyway, I was able to raise 3 kids with a stay at home mother and offering all the passages of youth. Great years. I will miss my place when it’s time to sell. Built the house 25 years ago and served us well.
    One regret was not to have acquired more property in the nineties. It was dirt cheap back then.
    Now looking to own a home along the southern NJ shore. I will also build in Florida, SW Coast. Have land there. Tax rates in this specific NJ town are $1 per $100. That’s right. Fully evaluated.

  75. Steamy Cankles Foundation says:

    “Now have both parents do that commute everyday and it’s rough.”

    Gator and I have done the 60 to 80 minute commute to the city for the past 17 years. Before then, we took the PATH from Hoboken and Jersey City and it still was 40 minutes. Believe me, it’s not worth it. If anything is the bane of my existence, it is the complete sh1tshow that NJ Transit is. It is why I did everything in my power to be able to work from Union NJ now and why I get up at 5:30am to work in the city 14 miles away the twice a month I still need to venture into that POS cement armpit.

    I agree fully with Lurks McGee (great name). When I wasn’t married and was making 65K, I could easily max out my 401K, an IRA own a new car and live comfortably with roommates. I think even today, 100K is enough to do the same with a wife and maybe one kid. But you’d have to take the bus into the city to work unless you somehow nailed an opportunity to make the good money near home. You mention East Brunswick. You can get a Cape down on the Old Bridge/Spotswood corner of town for 300K easy. 4BR/2Bath. Great schools. Park and Ride at Tower Center or catch a bus at the GSP rest area by route 9. Mom can drive kid wherever they need to go. For us, Gator’s been off work for the past few months and it’s been great. We can’t really afford to do this in our current home forever, but it’s a necessity until the brain-injured son can get full day pre-k special services. I can’t tell you how wonderful it is. And I would trade away the big home in Glen Ridge for a tiny home in Cedar Grove or Little Falls if we had to easily. The value of one of us being free is enormous. We’ve been lucky that she has been able to spend a lot of her free time advocating for the “D” and landing help from tons of foundations which is allowing us not to completely spend down our rainy day fund. Unfortunately, this won’t last forever. We are hoping that come September, the “D” will be much further along and she can find a decent enough paying job somewhere locally. We’ll see.

  76. Steamy Cankles Foundation says:

    I dream of the day the 4 year-old turns 18. See you in Costa Rica b1tches. I’ll have enough saved to retire like a king down there, though I’ll probably spend a lot of money flying the kids back and forth for visits. Can’t wait!

  77. No One says:

    Expat, 3:06
    With violence, adultery and high-speed driving on tap, this sounds like the ideal home for a pro football player to move into and start beating up his baby-mama.

  78. No One says:

    Steamy,
    I found Costa Rica rather warm. So is Florida, though.
    I know a guy who loves living there, plays golf frequently.
    I don’t speak Spanish so Costa Rica isn’t on my wish list.
    How’s the health care?

  79. jcer says:

    Lurks how much do you need to save because 401k contributions aren’t going to fund retirement(don’t even think about SS) and you will will likely need to help your kids pay for college? At 200k with stay at home wife, you maybe can save 35k-40k per year after paying your expenses. To adequately save for retirement on a 200k income you need the 18k 401k contribution, the company match to the tune of 6-10k and then another 15-20k, realistically a quarter of your yearly income over a 30 year career. So you can save for retirement, contribute to kids college fund and put 10-20k in your rainy day fund with 200k single income. I’m not suffering, my wife and I both make a good salary and we are cheap, we have been banking 50% of our take home and maxing out both 401Ks for the last 5-6 years, that’s changed now that I bought a large house but while we are still both employed we are very comfortable and can still maintain 20-25% savings on gross income, on one income we would not be able to save outside the 401k. Also I cannot bank on my career extending past 55 or 60, I’ve seen too many otherwise good employees cast aside for being too old to think I’ll somehow be immune. It’s all a matter of what your expenses are but realistically, I have a lot of friends with stay at home wives and from a budget perspective it is tight for people in less than 200k crowd in NJ because of high fixed expenses let alone all the crap professional class people are supposed to have and do.

  80. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Lib,

    You’re so right that having a parent at home full time is not only a supreme luxury, but also a perishable luxury as you can never buy back with future income or wealth. Since our first girl was born in 2002 they’ve never been without a parent at home. I was lucky enough to stay home for 4.5 years and the last of those years we both stayed home unemployed together for a year. Since then, my wife hasn’t had a full time job since 2006 and it’s been just as great for the kids. Now that our kids are 15 & 13 we can see the end zone and look forward to it. I still can’t say what country we or our kids will be in a few years from now and who will be travelling where (maybe we all live in Singapore while they go to Yale Singapore?).

  81. Steamy Cankles Foundation says:

    Plane crashed into the DPW. Winning!

  82. Steamy Cankles Foundation says:

    Costa Rican healthcare is single-payer and higher ranked than ours. It costs expats about $2,000 year last I checked for private. Public is slightly cheaper, but only because it’s as good as the private.

    http://www.cnbc.com/2017/01/13/health-care-tourism-is-booming-in-costa-rica.html

  83. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    That’s about the same as 1997 US Health care with dental. I used to do project work for a company where I would make 6 figures with full benefits(including matching 401K, 1 week paid vacation for every 1000 hours worked, etc.) for maybe 9 months, then they would lay me off and I would collect unemployment for about 3 months and pay Cobra until another project came around that interested me. My monthly Cobra payments were $130 per month including dental and I think my UE benefits were about $600 per week. I was making just over $100K with 3 months off every year and negligible health care worries. That was pretty good money for 1997, btw. Good times, good times.

    Costa Rican healthcare is single-payer and higher ranked than ours. It costs expats about $2,000 year last I checked for private. Public is slightly cheaper, but only because it’s as good as the private.

  84. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    “Oh, no more yanky my wanky,” he moans. “The Donger needs food.”

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88591800

  85. Grim says:

    I don’t post articles because I believe, or disbelieve, them.

  86. The Great Pumpkin says:

    I thought I was reading an onion article for a second, but realized this is a real article. The writers of this opinion piece(they don’t list their names) should be lined up and shot for spewing this kind of propaganda that will hurt and divide the citizens of our state. These idiots are claiming that a five figure income is “lavish?” Wtf planet do they live on?

    Now, how many ignorant folk are going to read this and spread this nonsense. This guy thinks the market would supply good teachers with a salary of 42,000 to 48,000? Shaking my head, it should be illegal to publish nonsense like this. No one is going to invest in college to make 42,000 year. This is beyond disrespectful to teachers to dictate that they should be making 42,000 as a college graduate in a very important job teaching the future of this country. Stating 42,000 shows how much these writers of this piece value the education of our kids. They are basically saying a teacher is worth a little more than twice the cost of min wage. Just wrong.

    “Of the 20 lowest-paying districts in the state, all but one are charter schools, which operate with less money. They are nonunion, and salaries range from $42,000 to $48,000, closer to what the market would pay for good teachers without elected officials and their public union allies pushing up the cost.”

    http://www.pressofatlant!ccity.com/opinion/editorials/overpaid-teachers-might-get-a-lot-more-expensive/article_6ba3d772-4174-5217-b01c-9ac35568eda9.html

  87. The Great Pumpkin says:

    If you want to read the full article, correct the spelling of Atlantic City in the link.

  88. The Great Pumpkin says:

    I def know that. When I go after an article you post, I know you take no position on the article. You are simply posting to spur discussion.

    Grim says:
    May 15, 2017 at 5:57 pm
    I don’t post articles because I believe, or disbelieve, them.

  89. The Great Pumpkin says:

    That pretty much describes my wife and I. Had our child at 33 and prob not having another. Who knows though, but it’s tough to take on two kids with a wife that is career oriented. Lots of stress.

    3b says:
    May 15, 2017 at 3:19 pm
    Jcer agree. We have told our kids that when the time comes for babies both need to keep jobs. That may be one reason many are having one and done today and waiting until there well into their 30 s or older to have kids.

  90. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Xolepa, you did it right my friend. Wish I could have done the same. Hope your kids appreciate all that you have done for them.

  91. The Great Pumpkin says:

    200k is more than enough, yet not enough if that makes any sense. Of course my wife and I could do one income, but you get addicted to the lifestyle. It’s nice being able to go on vacation wherever you want or eating whatever you want. Most of all, it’s nice not fighting or worrying about every dollar, but then again, a stay at home wife is priceless (so is having more than one child). Everything is a give and take in life. Ying and yang. Good and bad to everything.

  92. STEAMturd questioning the gender of Hillary's Cankle fluid. says:

    Gator and I waited until our mid 30s to have our first kid. Financial security was the reason.

  93. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Lurk and lib, east Brunswick is a great town. My brother-in-law was born and raised there. I think Wayne and East Brunswick are very similar in most aspects.

    And lib thanks for the write up on your situation. Always enjoy reading your write ups based on your experiences. Always provides food for thought.

  94. Fast Eddie says:

    Fabius,

    The next thing you know, Trump will be selling uranium to the Russians.

    drops mic…

  95. STEAMturd questioning the gender of Hillary's Cankle fluid. says:

    It’s not illegal to sell Uranium when you are doing such great foundation work. In other news, I see Hillary is back making sure all female democrats blow it again in 2020.

  96. Fabius Maximus says:

    If they are buying yellowcake are we going to war?

  97. chicagofinance says:

    In NJ 200K is sh!t unless someone hands you a house and takes care of incidentals such as your children’s college tuition……oh I’m sorry….excuse me……

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    May 15, 2017 at 7:21 pm
    200k is more than enough, yet not enough if that makes any sense. Of course my wife and I could do one income, but you get addicted to the lifestyle. It’s nice being able to go on vacation wherever you want or eating whatever you want. Most of all, it’s nice not fighting or worrying about every dollar, but then again, a stay at home wife is priceless (so is having more than one child). Everything is a give and take in life. Ying and yang. Good and bad to everything.

  98. Raymond Reddington says:

    What percentage of NJ residents make 200k+ on one salary? Ok with 2 salaries, divorce or sickness torpedoes the ship.

  99. PumpkinFace says:

    Raymond,
    No idea to your question, but it looks like only 9% of households make $200k+ according to this random website.

    (chart #7)
    http://statisticalatlas.com/state/New-Jersey/Household-Income#figure/household-income-distribution

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