From HousingWire:
NAR: Home sales may be falling, but housing sentiment is on the rise
In four of the past five months, including the most recent report in August, showed existing home sales continue to fall, however this is not due to a lack of confidence from consumers about home buying and selling.
The third quarter brought a rebound in consumer sentiment on the housing market, according to the Housing Opportunities and Market Experience survey from the National Association of Realtors.
After dropping to just 52% of renters in the second quarter, the share of renters who believe now is a good time to buy increased to 62% in the third quarter, the survey found. This is also up from 60% of renters in the third quarter last year.
Overall, sentiment is the highest among current homeowners, households with higher incomes and those living in the affordable Midwest and South regions. The share of homeowners who said now is a good time to sell increased to 80%, a new survey high. This is up form 75% last quarter and from 67% last year.
…
The survey showed despite these gains in confidence, Americans continue to struggle in the competitive housing market. About two-thirds of households responded that saving for a down payment is challenging and about half of renters said they expect to pay more in rent next year.The number of households who said the economy is improving increased to 57% in the third quarter, up from 54% last quarter and 48% last year. The positive outlook was amplified among those living in suburban areas and those with incomes above $50,000 per year.
…
However, once again, the reality is that most non-homeowners do not plan on buying a home anytime soon, despite their confidence that now is a good time to buy. NAR’s survey showed over half of renters believe their rent will increase within the next year.However, they also answered that if their rent does increase, 42% will still resign their lease or move to a cheaper rental. Only 15% of renters answered that they would consider buying a home.
Good Morning New Jersey
Fraaaaaaayuuuustgaaaaa
Amazon at Fort Monmouth? C’mon.
50k employees is a mind boggling number. It IS a city. Anyplace without mass transit has no shot.
They could take the train to little silver and amazon could have a fleet of shuttles
“President Donald Trump’s promised tax overhaul may force dozens of Republican congressmen in states including New York and New Jersey into a politically damaging vote to repeal a $1.3 trillion tax break their districts use heavily.
But not if Representative Peter King of New York can help it. King, a Republican who represents Long Island, said he’ll oppose any attempt to repeal the state and local tax deduction, calling it “absolutely essential to my district.””
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-26/trump-s-state-tax-plan-could-cause-headaches-for-52-republicans
“50k employees is a mind boggling number. It IS a city. Anyplace without mass transit has no shot.”
Back of the envelope says a building the size of a 40 story Manhattan skyscraper?
Tough for a car only environment to handle even assuming the 100 acre campus and multiple buildings/entry points.
From Pumps linked article. Wayne is not in this District. Guess he’ll have to move.
“In New Jersey, where lawmakers say losing the break would increase taxes on the average taxpayer by $3,500 per year, Representative Leonard Lance says he’ll also work to save the…deduction. But would Lance vote against a tax-overhaul bill that repeals it?
“Let’s just say I would have the gravest of reservations,” said Lance, whose constituents reported paying $4.9 billion in state and local taxes in 2015, the highest amount of any Republican congressional district.
Trump has to be kidding me pay taxes on taxes? How about instead the federal government sends back more than $0.42 for every dollar we send. This from a guy who is from NY? It’s bad enough we have to pay the egregious taxes to the state and local governments and eliminating the deduction isn’t going to effect the democrats will to spend, half of these people want 75% tax rates. Why can’t they just focus on corporate taxes, simplifying the tax code to eliminate loopholes, a reduction in rate and migrating the US to a territorial taxation scheme like the rest of the civilized world? There is just something that seems inherently unfair about taxing money used on taxes, I really have no discretion in the manner and the permanent underclass in the urban Ghettos will continue to vote for democrats(anyone who will keep the gravy flowing) as will the union members, with those two groups the democrats basically have a lock on the state.
Property taxes of 15 to 20k are becoming more common in everyday Bergen co towns yet school enrollment is supposed to be declining. Also in my town the mc mansions on smaller pieces of property are in many cases paying less taxes or equal taxes than non mc mansions on larger pieces of property.
Amazon will move to an urban area not a suburb.
50k well paid employees immediately would change the dynamics of a city like Newark, Detroit, etc. I’d love to see NJ get Amazon because it would be the economic shot in the arm this state needs…..that being said I just don’t see it happening. NJ is not a competitive state and I think NJ’s incentive offer is not going to be enough to get Amazon to come here, they can tap our talent pool(outside of silicon valley and seattle we have a huge number of technology professionals in NJ) and NYC’s greater pool by locating in Manhattan (in jersey you won’t get Westchester, LI, CT, or NYC employees to commute to NJ).
Jcer I would love to see Newark get it too and think in many respects it fits the requirements but it won’t happen. Amazon won’t tolerate NJ political b.s..
“Trump has to be kidding me pay taxes on taxes?”
Very twisted view. Elimination of the state/local/mortgage deductions is not ‘paying taxes on taxes’. The existence of these deductions at all at the Federal level is a huge subsidy to these taxpayers.
“…simplifying the tax code to eliminate loopholes…”
Said deductions being among the largest loopholes around.
” How about instead the federal government sends back more than $0.42 for every dollar we send.”
To take a page from Pumpkinomics, if you want to send less to DC, then earn less.
The real problem is the size of the federal government……how is taxing dollars TWICE not paying taxes on taxes. Honestly as dysfunctional as NJ is, the feds are actually WORSE. We don’t actually get very much from the FEDs here despite paying a third of our income to them.
I think we should march on Washington with pen1s hats.
New home sales down 3.4% vs estimate of up 3.5%
Ruh-roh.
August:
New home sales down 3.4% v. estimate of up 3.5%.
5.8 month supply to 6.1 month supply
Sequential seasonally adjusted declines to 560,000 from 580,000
Median cost essentially flat at $302,000
Ha, typing at the same time.
Million Pen1s March?
I think we should march on Washington with pen1s hats.
Ooh-ooh-ooh!
Pen1s hats with built-in hairy ball earmuffs!
It would be funny if there was nice little rural town called Median, so you could tell people you were going to spend the weekend at your Median House.
There is hardly any realistic inventory available.
leftwing says:
September 26, 2017 at 10:03 am
August:
New home sales down 3.4% v. estimate of up 3.5%.
5.8 month supply to 6.1 month supply
Sequential seasonally adjusted declines to 560,000 from 580,000
Median cost essentially flat at $302,000
I would not eliminate the mtg interest and property tax deduction but I would cap it. It might reign in the tax and spend local and state politicians spending. That being said I am amazed at how many people don’t really understand the whole mtg interest and property tax deduction.
There is a Jersey Shore in PA. I passed it this weekend on my way up to the Rochester tournament which Gator Jr’s team won. The looks on the faces of the Ontario team when we slaughtered them was invaluable. Normally, Canadian teams roll over Jersey teams. Even Upstate New York teams typically beat us. Not this time. They only lost one game in the tourney and they beat themselves through bad decisions and stupid penalties. Beat the team they lost to in the final 5-2.
In other news, my nephew’s football team is now ranked #2 in the state and my nephew had 20 tackles this week after recording 17 tackles last week at linebacker. Those are record breaking numbers. Unfortunately, he only weighs 180 which will certainly keep him out of division 1. Will still scholarship, but it will have to be at D2 school and lift weights for two years to have a shot at D1. Kid is an animal on the field. Sniffs out plays like a beagle. He just can’t gain weight, which is not a problem for most in our family.
“The real problem is the size of the federal government……how is taxing dollars TWICE not paying taxes on taxes. Honestly as dysfunctional as NJ is, the feds are actually WORSE. We don’t actually get very much from the FEDs here despite paying a third of our income to them.”
The above is absolutely ass-backwards.
1. Your dollars are not taxed twice if the state/local deduction disappears. You have dozens of expenses over the year – food, clothes, travel, entertainment, car, local taxes. Only one of these is allowed to be deducted from your Fed taxes. Nobody is “taxing you twice”. The Feds are currently giving you a huge break because you choose to live in a high local tax area with dysfunctional overspending local governments. That break may go away, and your expenses will now be on equal footing, with none deductible. Boo-hoo.
2. The problem is the LOCAL government spending in this case, not the Fed. As Pumps likes to wax on, this area provides so many services, such good schools, so many amenities, so much redundant home rule. Why should someone else subsidize the benefits you derive from living in a high tax, high service area?
The article Pumps links to shows $4.9B of state and local taxes in one NJ District alone. At an average marginal rate of, say, 25% that is $1.25 billion of subsidy these tax payers are getting from others.
That money they save is no different than the EITC or WIC transfer payments given to the residents of the “ghetto” (as you like to say).
You are both taking handouts from the feds by way of the tax code. The only difference is the zip code on your “ghetto” is better than the zip code on theirs.
Sick of getting back 42 cents on the dollar?
http://tinyurl.com/42-cents
Left you can make the argument however that the subsidy provided to the home owners is given to people who actually pay taxes as opposed to many in the ghetto that don’t. That being said I believe the deduction should be capped.
Uhhh have you ever been to Seattle, WA?
3b says:
September 26, 2017 at 9:47 am
Jcer I would love to see Newark get it too and think in many respects it fits the requirements but it won’t happen. Amazon won’t tolerate NJ political b.s..
Amazon will do this….Amazon will do that. Nobody knows WTF they’ll do.
D fend. I understand just saying logistically Newark fits the criteria in many respects. As for the quality of life and safely you are of course correct. That being said and if Bezos wanted some good publicity Newark could be a choice. In the end though NJ politicians will screw it up and it won’t happen.
Dfens nobody does is right. But it will be one of the most anticipated announcements ever.
Politics in Seattle, WA
https://youtu.be/nMGKeq_dCtg?t=44
3b, don’t disagree that different groups of government transfer recipients may contribute different amounts to the tax system. That is a different point though than my original which is that the state/local deduction is a government benefit and removal of same is not a new “tax on a tax”.
To paraphrase the Pumps again, if you can’t afford to pay the price for the services you receive here through your taxes then this place is not for you, just leave.
Jcer makes a valid point, why do already high taxed states have to subsidize the rest of the country? Why is is not equal across the board? Do you know how much they could lower local taxes in nj if we didn’t send so much money to these other states? How do you not get mad about that?
Cry about property taxes, but at least you get a good education (raises your home value) and bunch of other services for it. What exactly do you get from your federal tax dollars? You just give and give, and get almost nothing back in return.
They should be giving us money to improve the infrastructure here. It drives the national economy, hence, it deserves fed dollars to be returned to nj in the aid of the national economy that benefits all.
leftwing says:
September 26, 2017 at 10:20 am
Paying taxes on taxes? Not really. It’s taxes on income. Currently the federal government allows deductions of state taxes. There’s no reason in principle that they should take less from those who happen to elect state governors and legislators that have higher state taxes. It’s a tax break.
I brought this up a few weeks ago. Effective top marginal income tax rate in NJ could rise from 5.6% to 11% if the Federal deductibility goes while Murphy gets his promised rate hike. That would really help drive the extra-rich from NJ and a few other states while the top 20% income earners get financially squeezed into paying more attention to their local/state taxes, given that it’s more difficult for them to flee.
Left Agreed. Both transfers. Different degrees. As for the so called services I don’t agree.
The myth of high property taxes means higher property values still lives I see.
The main point that everyone misses politically is that spending is the problem. Taxes are just the side-effect, coupled by borrowing which goes mostly un-noticed.
Notice that NJ school spending only seems to deliver good outcomes where parents mostly have college degrees and high expectations/private tutoring? And in the parts of NJ where the parental demographics are weaker, you get the same crappy outcomes as everywhere. NJ schools are priced like the Mercedes dealership repairs department. Same basic work as at the Hyundai dealer repair department, just priced a lot higher. When a Mercedes comes in the shop, they charge you a lot, and it comes out a Mercedes. If you send a Hyundai into the Mercedes shop, they can fix it, but it still comes out a Hyundai.
S&P CoreLogic Case-Schiller data out:
New York metro houses +4% year over year, -13% from 2006 peak
New York metro condos +4% year over year, +18% from 2006 peak
Philly?
A sudden influx of 50,000 workers is “an awful lot to dump into one place,” Seymour said. “But Philadelphia as a city has lost 50,000 workers.”
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/transportation/is-philly-public-transit-ready-for-amazon-hq2-septa-amtrak-20170925.html
“…while the top 20% income earners get financially squeezed into paying more attention to their local/state taxes…”
Boom.
Elimination of state/local deduction means two things:
1. Services get priced closer to actual costs without the distortion of federal tax deduction subsidies, and
2. Residents will pay a lot more attention now to local government expenditures.
Want to drive home rule consolidation NJ big time? Remove state/local deductability.
leftwing you have it ass backwards. With discretionary spend I have a choice where my money goes. I choose how where and how I spend my money. With local taxes I am legally obligated. As for property taxes, I get no deduction, the AMT wipes it out. Every state has some form of local tax(income/property/sales tax) because they are providing necessary services that the federal government fails to provide.
So let me get this straight, it’s fine for net negative, non property owning citizens to vote. Thus ensuring a political lock in certain areas, and the citizens demand nothing more than a little gravy for their vote. We get neglected by the federal government because we are such a political lock, which in reality is a massive redistribution system from the economically productive to states that aren’t. So no, I’m not being subsidized by anyone, we are giving the subsidies, we are a highly dense area which brings some complexities, if the state didn’t spend the money it would impact the economy negatively.
Tax deductions typically tend to be about promoting some kind of behavior, be it charitable giving or home ownership. Promoting an effective local government is good for the economy and the honest truth is that no income tax states usually are doing their citizens a disservice because those who can afford it pay(high property taxes, private schools, private roads, etc) but those who cannot are forced to do so without reasonable services and it absolutely results in decreased economic output(an effect far greater in urban areas like the northeast and CA). The government should incentivize local spending as a public good like charitable giving
Can you imagine all of the s3x workers that will instantly flock to the chosen city for Amazon’s new HQ2? I need to keep my p1mp hand strong.
I choose how where and how I spend my money
“That’s Un-American!”
-says every Democratic politician while securing secret exception for themselves.
There is no reason towns in Bergen county should not be regionalized except that the towns without multi family housing don’t want to merge with the towns that do. With more multi family housing being built in many towns that should no longer be a reason.
It amazes me that my liberal friends are liberal except for building mult family housing in their town. As they tell me it will negatively affect our property values. Just saying.
I see it as a tax on a tax because of the lack of discretion. I can choose my housing with the corresponding tax bill and service level, I can even move to a different state but in reality I am tied to my job. For any high earner my taxes at every level are subsidizing someone, why should they not be deductible? I can go live in Florida, pay no income tax, contribute nothing to the greater society and just buy the services I need for a fraction of what I pay in income tax and let the rest of society suffer.
JCer, you are all over the place.
I personally don’t disagree with many of your points, however, they are moot in supporting your original contention.
Bottom line, the state/local deduction is a fed subsidy to you if you take it.
Regarding compulsory spending versus discretionary, no one is forcing you to live in a high tax, high service area. It is part of the lifestyle you choose. If you want a small town feel with home rule, your own police local force, curbside leaf collection 2x a week in the Fall, preemptive salting of roads when there a wisp of precipitation in the air, etc, etc someone has to pay for it.
Today, those services you choose to receive by living where you do are subsidized by the Feds. Tomorrow, they may not be. If that occurs and you still want those services you will need to pony up more. If you don’t want to pony up more, you will have to give up that lifestyle and move. Pretty simple.
And, separately, the below is one of the more dangerous statements I have heard in a while. These clowns need less power to spend, not more.
“The government should incentivize local spending as a public good”
“The main point that everyone misses politically is that spending is the problem.”
Rinse and repeat, over and over and over again!
Have I told you how much we pay for the Montclair Public Library? It’s actually a pretty sh1tty library compared to the one we had growing up in East Brunswick.
Multi-unit housing hurts suburban towns because of the property tax issue. Property taxes are based on home values, expenses(65-70%) are driven by school expenditures. Multi-family development brings a greater number of students per dollar of taxes, more dwellings on the same land with a value per unit lower than a single family detached home. Moving in multi-unit housing will ultimately lead to higher tax rates.
A little twist on the big picture:
I think the 2008 financial crisis had an immediate and lasting effect on all US residents (I’m talking a larger number than US citizens, wink, wink). I think critical mass formed of those who have lost confidence that they will ever make it to the financial promised land without “hitting the lottery.”
Without any data, my guess is 60% of all resident adults don’t believe they’ll ever accumulate appreciable wealth through their own legal efforts alone right now. Prior to the housing crisis, this number might have been at an all-time low instead of an all-time high. Let’s say 35% of US resident adults have perennially not expected to make it too far up the financial ladder. I’ll posit that that number maybe dropped to 30% during the housing bubble and then swung radically upward after the bubble popped.
So, in a nutshell, I think we have a larger than ever populace that believes that someone in government needs to do something or they’ll never have a chance. The irony lies in that the group that feels this way is probably equally split between Trump believers and non-believers. You can’t even divide them by party because there are so many in the wealthy class that aren’t on board with Trump and an equally large number of young people (Sanders supporters) who aren’t on board with anyone.
Jcer I understand that my point was that many self identified liberals are only liberal if it does not hurt their property values. Personally I think that with around one million people or so Bergen Co should just become a city.
Compared East Brunswick Library Budget to that of Montclair. It’s slightly over half as large. Why am I not surprised? Larger population too.
“…but in reality I am tied to my job…”
Again, what you see as compulsory is really a choice. You can in fact change jobs and dial back the standard of living if the cost of living in this area for this job becomes too expensive. Many people do it. The extreme example are retirees, who upon retirement have an income/expense ratio way out whack if they were to choose to live in this area.
I’m not breaking your ba11s and in fact as readily apparent I am fiscally very conservative. I’m taking the other side of this argument, academically, because inconsistency bothers me. Everyone wants lower taxes, better services, and people to pay their “fair share” (whatever that means) until it hits their pocketbook then somehow the ruler moves.
“Liberals” are always spending someone else’s money. They all try to avoid taxation while espousing the desire for higher tax rates. They support the poor as long as they are over “there”. The problem with town mergers is the effect on property values, tax rates, etc. In a merger there are winners and losers, the losing town will fight the consolidation hence why it never happens. Overall, yes consolidation would be better for more people overall but some would be hurt by it(here’s looking at you towns with great commercial ratables).
I’m going to repeat my sentiments about libraries Stu, how are they even still a thing? Give everyone access to a digital library of content and call it a day.
I don’t like that they’re called liberals. Classic Liberalism is almost the complete opposite of what the Democratic Party is in the United States.
JCer, “tax on tax”
What about sales tax, gasoline tax, cigarette tax, liquor tax, gambling tax, use tax, bulk sales tax, or any fees paid to state and local governments for non taxed services like permits?
Jcer I agree. But in the case of Bergen county it is insane that there are over 70 seperate towns seventy police departments probably over 60 or more seperate school systems it’s simply not sustainable.
leftwing our federal government spends with the efficiency of the greek government.I look at the nearly 200k I pay in federal, state, and property taxes and look at what I receive in return, the feds are by far the worst in terms of dollars sent vs. services received and property taxes actually look good comparatively(The town is pretty much solely dependent on only property taxes to fund the local government). I’m paying effectively 45ish% of my income in taxes, if I am to keep my high paying job that is what I have to pay. The tax plan makes this number high, it seems unfair. I generally do not complain much about taxes and would be fine to pay more if it were actually used judiciously.
The rich will get a rate break, the poor/middle/lower will get a bigger standard deduction. I’ll still have the AMT, higher rates in NJ,and a huge property tax bill because my municipality is too rich to get state and federal dollars for the schools. Again the productive class foots the bill because we really don’t have a choice, our choice is be productive or don’t.
D fens I am non confirming but I don’t like so called liberals because of their hypocrisy!
“I’m going to repeat my sentiments about libraries Stu, how are they even still a thing? Give everyone access to a digital library of content and call it a day.”
Agreed. But the government is always last to adapt to change. Why should they? There is no incentive to. If the government was in the private sector, it would have gone out of business ages ago. I prefer to use the example of private rail (freight) vs. heavily subsidized public rail (passenger). One is disgustingly profitable. The other, couldn’t turn a profit even if fares were quadrupled.
What irks me is that most middle class couples do have the ability to make it without any assistance. A 2 income household combining for 90k can live modestly and bank away a ton of cash. Instead, they insist on bigger homes, more vacations, eating out nonstop, and getting a new phone every 3 months.
I do find it ironic that the one spot that they choose to skimp on is when it comes to a car. Rather than buy new, they buy a 5 year old used car. But even then, they’ll still go Audi or BMW over a Honda.
“The Montclair Water Bureau reports a water main break on Bloomfield Avenue — water pressure will be lower between Valley Road and Park Street for approximately two hours. ”
Hmmmmm. I wonder if it has anything to do with the sudden quadrupling of density in that area. Keep on thinking that those stupid condos are going to get Montclair out of it’s massive debt. Who is going to pay for that repair and the 20 cops that will be needed to route everyone around that repair site.
home buyer i’d make the argument that we are over taxed and taxes are applied at too many levels. The federal government as an entity is wholly ineffective, overspends and taxes us too highly. Again back to Romney how many people pay no tax at all? How many take services way in excess of what they pay. In NJ progressive taxation has the low paid not paying much at all vs. what NY makes them pay. Our politicians should raise funds by reducing the number of brackets and forcing the payers into higher brackets…..
Not in the case of nj…..once again, we are dead last in money returned via the fed. You can call it a subsidy, but in reality, you are just giving some of that money back.
The bigger question, which I would like you to answer is why high locally taxed states have to pick up the bill for low tax states? Why? The logic makes no sense.
“Bottom line, the state/local deduction is a fed subsidy to you if you take it.”
Lib Hoboken terminal falling apart. The repairs from last years tragic train accident won’t be completed until the summer of 2019!! The trains are old and the seating is horrible. They were built for kids. Yeah wonderful services we are paying for in NJ.
You are merely a vessel for federal subsidies.
The Great Pumpkin says:
September 26, 2017 at 12:04 pm
Not in the case of nj…..once again, we are dead last in money returned via the fed. You can call it a subsidy, but in reality, you are just giving some of that money back.
The bigger question, which I would like you to answer is why high locally taxed states have to pick up the bill for low tax states? Why? The logic makes no sense.
“Bottom line, the state/local deduction is a fed subsidy to you if you take it.”
In world news things could get ugly in Spain next Monday.
This is not a liberal or lefty thing. It’s common sense. You can have sympathy for the poor, but only an idiot would allow multi family housing in a single family town where they own a home. You like giving money away? Complain about high taxes, but then advocate for you home value going to zero.
3b says:
September 26, 2017 at 11:05 am
It amazes me that my liberal friends are liberal except for building mult family housing in their town. As they tell me it will negatively affect our property values. Just saying.
Pumps, try to keep up.
The state/local deduction is a federal subsidy for an individual. It’s not an arguable point. It’s a definition. A fact.
In the same way the feds subsidize housing for low income individuals through Section 8 vouchers, they subsidize living costs for the better off through the mortgage and state/local deductions.
I know that may offend your requisite sense of superiority, but again it’s definitional.
Your other points are arguments and I’m not up to engaging in debates today. They may or may not have merit, eg. should states be net neutral on federal tax payments and receipts (as an aside, if so, then why in the world would any state need to send money there in the first place and how does the federal government get funded if every state is getting back 100 cents on the dollar). But again, no debate from me today.
Don’t disagree. But from the perspective of a low cost state its unfair.
Also, NJ only gets about 77 cents on the dollar back from the fed. Factor in the prop tax deduction and that number gets closer to 1. (per wallethub anyways which did the 2016 analysis anyways)
“The bigger question, which I would like you to answer is why high locally taxed states have to pick up the bill for low tax states?”
May not answer the ‘why’ but certainly answers the ‘how’……
Progressive tax rates. Which to me are inherently unfair.
Hey Pumps, have you noted my quoting and agreeing with you for much of this morning? Don’t get too excited, even a broken clock…….
Actually I can provide better then wallethub.
http://www.politifact.com/california/article/2017/feb/14/does-california-give-more-it-gets-dc/
Someone missed my whole point.
1. You cannot say you care about the poor and advocate for them social justice and all the rest. And then be against multi family housing in your town if you deem yourself to be a lberal. The burden should be shouldered by all again if you deem yourself to be a liberal.
2. In NJ multi family housing is coming it has already started. Supreme Court has decried the state needs to provide 1.5 million low and moderate housing units period. If you deem yourself to be a liberal than you should be applauding this. Not against it.
Read the post. Utilize critical thinking skills.
http://recoverperu.org/
It would be pretty funny if Trump appoints Ron Paul as the new Fed Chair.
I’ll pay the cost of federal highways, military, and national parks. Everything else should be done locally with voter input, and voters should also sign a contract that if they run up the bill on borrowing, they can’t leave for another state or town when that bill comes due…you voted yes, then the bill follows you wherever you go.
There is really no reason for the federal govt to be collecting so much money, when it can be completed on a local level.
“Your other points are arguments and I’m not up to engaging in debates today. They may or may not have merit, eg. should states be net neutral on federal tax payments and receipts (as an aside, if so, then why in the world would any state need to send money there in the first place and how does the federal government get funded if every state is getting back 100 cents on the dollar). But again, no debate from me today.”
LOL. Mike Francesa (WFAN) just alleged that a (Hedge?) Fund guy got “pinched” and gave the NCAA payoff scheme to the feds to “lighten his load”. Francesa’s said the Fund guy said to the feds, “I have something you might be interested in…”
If someone tried to take an in-focus picture of Pumps house while going the speed limit I wonder how fast of a shutter speed they would need?
If that suggestion is for Pumps, that’s akin to recommending jumping jacks as a form of therapy to quadriplegics.
Read the post. Utilize critical thinking skills.
Again, you can care and advocate for the poor, and be against multi’s. It makes complete sense. You are ignorant if you own a single family home in a town without multi’s, and then advocate for bringing in multi’s to help the poor. That will not help the poor, and it will bring down your town with it, while causing you to lose a significant amount of money. What is there to question, 3b?
3b says:
September 26, 2017 at 12:25 pm
Someone missed my whole point.
1. You cannot say you care about the poor and advocate for them social justice and all the rest. And then be against multi family housing in your town if you deem yourself to be a lberal. The burden should be shouldered by all again if you deem yourself to be a liberal.
Couldn’t help it. I’m done Pumps-bashing for today…unless he begs for it. One Mississippi, two Missiissippo…
As an aside, any discussion of a State ‘getting what it gives’ relative to the federal government is literally the dumbest concept I have heard in a long time.
First, in the aggregate, States will never get back 100 cents on the dollar. The Federal government has expenses where those dollars go outside of the States (eg, interest on the national debt). It is a mathematical impossibility for every State to get back 100 cents on every dollar.
Second, if each State is looking to get par back, how does that system even work? Why would any entity in its right mind send 100 cents to someone else with the expectation of getting back….100 cents?
So let’s go to the ‘relative’ point. Understanding that it is a mathematical impossibility for every state to get back 100%, not ever State ‘gives’ in the same proportion. Some states contribute in the aggregate more than others, and some states ‘take’ more in the aggregate than they contribute. How can that be?!?! OMG?! Conspiracy!!
Dear l0rd the Feds don’t tax by State. The US Treasury doesn’t dial up NJ and say “hey, you us this amount”. The Feds tax people, regardless of where they live. And they tax high earning people much higher than low earners (if at all). If your State has a disproportionate number or percent of high earners your State in the aggregate will pay much more than another State. If your State has a high number or percent of low earners not only will your State in the aggregate pay less, it will receive more.
What’s my point? **The framework of looking at tax transfers on State level is ridiculous because the system doesn’t work that way.** It makes as much sense to grab some other random variable and look at who gives/gets more – people that drive white cars or people that drive black cars. People who live ranches or people who live in condos. State by state comparison is an asinine analysis of an even dumber question.
If for some unfathomable reason you want your State in aggregate to pay less and receive more from the Feds it’s very simple. Entice all your high earners to move somewhere else (your State in the aggregate will pay less to the Feds). Keep your retirees (your State in the aggregate will receive more Social Security and Medicare from the Feds) and keep your poor (your State in the aggregate will receive more Medicaid, Section 8, WIC, EITC from the Feds). And those two populations will pay very little to the Feds.
Viola! So, essentially, if you want to ‘get’ more than you ‘give’ as a State turn your State into KY, Mississippi, or Alabama. QED.
Dumbest question, nearly ever.
Yes, that’s why some states get back more than they put in. I get what you are saying, but I’m simply pointing out the simple fact that rich blue states subsidize everyone and their mother.
“First, in the aggregate, States will never get back 100 cents on the dollar. The Federal government has expenses where those dollars go outside of the States (eg, interest on the national debt). It is a mathematical impossibility for every State to get back 100 cents on every dollar.”
When does the USFL start playing again?
So for Trump to take this approach with tax reform by lowering other state tax payers contribution at the expense of rich blue states is wrong. He is only okay with it because he knows these states will only vote for the blue team, hence, he has no problem sticking it to them since he doesn’t need their votes. It’s bs. Take from the economically productive to give to people who voted for you because they don’t have the skills to get a job in this economy.
When pork barrel spending money is doled out our senators/clowngress critters don’t bring home enough bacon…..
The tax plan is actually more fair and with fewer loopholes for the “rich”.
Sticking it to blue states that didn’t vote for him is just the icing on the cake.
“Yes, that’s why some states get back more than they put in. I get what you are saying, but I’m simply pointing out the simple fact that rich blue states subsidize everyone and their mother.”
No Pumps the ‘States’ don’t get anything back or put anything in. That’s my entire point. Individuals put in, and individuals get back.
It is a fallacy to aggregate the transfer payments to/from a group of individuals by State or any other measure and assume it means anything.
Why not do the analysis by county? Or by city? Or by house or car color? Because counties, cities, houses, cars, and States do not fund the Feds. Individuals do.
Aggregating individuals into arbitrary pools and analyzing Fed transfer payments is a meaningless analysis, and leads to nothing actionable since the Feds do not tax States, they tax individuals.
Now, if you want something actionable to improve your State’s statistics (other than tossing out your rich and keeping your elderly and poor) argue for a flat tax and a limitation on welfare. The first would reduce the aggregate federal tax payments from citizens in your wealthier State, the second would decrease the aggregate Federal payments to citizens in other less wealthy States. The give/get gap by State would narrow dramatically.
Why one would need to get to these conclusions through the prism of analyzing which States citizens in the aggregate give/get more is beyond me. Kind of like taking a five bank shot when the eight ball is sitting right on the corner pocket.
Bad business on a national level. These states basically drive our entire economy. So once again, let’s hurt the productive citizens who carry the weight of this country on their shoulders.
“Sticking it to blue states that didn’t vote for him is just the icing on the cake.”
Ex pat. It is just stunning. That’s all I can say!
3b,
Let me see your critical thinking skills, are you capable of understanding my position? I made my point, so why not debate it instead of saying snarky things to make yourself feel more intelligent.
“When pork barrel spending money is doled out our senators/clowngress critters don’t bring home enough bacon…..”
Agreed. But in the context of States citizens getting/giving more in taxes it’s not that meaningful.
1. Pork barrel spending is a small part of Fed transfer payments, dwarfed by SS, military, medicare, medicaid, and interest on the debt.
2. Pork barrel allocation has zero to do with how much the Feds collect in taxes from your State’s citizens and everything to do with the juice of your Congressional delegation.
One last time.
1. So called liberals define themselves as advocates for the poor and downtrodden the oppressed. Refugees. People of color different sexual orientation 15.00 minimum wage and all the rest.
2. The most fundamental thing is a roof over your head and food to eat.
3. In multi family housing you will some of the above mentioned groups. Particularly people of color many who may be recent immigrants and or illegal immigrants another group liberals claim they care about.
4. In these nice surburban towns they will have access to good schools etc another thing that liberals cry about for poor people etc. in addition they will have safe clean housing and neighborhoods and all the rest.
5. If you deem yourself a caring and compassionate liberal who supports my above mentioned traits and yet oppose multi family housing in your town than you are a hypocrite and a racist. Period. You cannot have it both ways.
Individuals or “states,” who cares. Why are the individuals in this state getting back less than every other individual from other states? That’s the question.
“No Pumps the ‘States’ don’t get anything back or put anything in. That’s my entire point. Individuals put in, and individuals get back.”
You are pissing me off. Do you understand what I’m saying? I will help the poor, but i’m not helping them by moving them to a rich town. They can stay in their town and receive help, why do I have to move them to some rich town to help them? So because a liberal cares about the poor, they must give away all their money to them? That’s what you are stating when you claim liberals should allow multi-housing in their rich town. The town will no longer be rich, the school system will go down, and the house values will now mimic that of a poor town. WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD ADVOCATE FOR THIS?
“5. If you deem yourself a caring and compassionate liberal who supports my above mentioned traits and yet oppose multi family housing in your town than you are a hypocrite and a racist. Period. You cannot have it both ways.”
How are you hypocritical if you don’t want to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars?
Left a big part of the high cost in this area can be attributed to reckless spending and corruption. So a question could be should that recklessness be subsidized ? Limiting the deduction could limit the recklessness.
“Why are the individuals in this state getting back less than every other individual from other states? That’s the question.”
Already answered. Highly progressive federal tax rates. Combined with generous welfare benefits.
Well confirmed. Hypocrite and a racist. Caring about the same people then in the same breath saying those people will destroy the towns the schools and the loss of property values. That is why I say so called liberals are hypocrites.
Now people can direct their anger appropriately. When the local municipality comes looking to increase your property taxes…or when the state wants to increase tolls, income taxes, fees, etc. they can’t claim they’ll get it back on their federal return.
3b, why does it have to be an extremist position? Protecting home values has everything to do with protecting your wealth, and nothing to do with racism. Again, should liberals just give away all their money to the poor because they advocate for them?
D-FENS the anger was always directed locally, nobody accuses the federal government for local spending. Now we will have to pay more and we all know well that the government won’t stop spending, the upper middle class doesn’t truly have the mobility to avoid paying.
3b, totally agree. Look at the comments even in here. People are complacent if they are receiving services at an acceptable level and price. Remove the tax subsidy and these same people either need to write a bigger check for the same services or look hard at whether they are getting value for dollars spent.
I’m going to look at my town later when I get a chance. Fewer than 10,000 residents, just under 3,000 housing units. We have our own library (despite a very county anchor 10 minutes away), our own police force (my hometown was larger and had none, relying on the county sheriff), and a very amenity heavy DPW. I’ll calculate what the per household savings would be on these items alone. And that is before the fact that we have a ‘sister’ municipality that is screaming for outright consolidation and redundancies.
I seriously think that if state/local deductions disappear you will actually begin to see home rule consolidation.
Then how come Warren Buffet pays a less % of his income than his secretary? Wish it was progressive across the board, clearly that’s not the case with the million deductions available to certain groups to get out of paying their fair share.
leftwing says:
September 26, 2017 at 1:50 pm
“Why are the individuals in this state getting back less than every other individual from other states? That’s the question.”
Already answered. Highly progressive federal tax rates. Combined with generous welfare benefits
liberals aren’t racist, I view this as the direction of the world. We are becoming more classist, I don’t mind people of any race or background but I don’t want to be around the poor. I get it to, being amongst people are similarly high socio-economic standing generally make life better.
Keep dreaming….
“I seriously think that if state/local deductions disappear you will actually begin to see home rule consolidation.”
You think people in rich towns are going to give up home rule to save 3,000 dollars? Come on now.
Racist!
Glad that you get it, no idea why 3b is unable to grasp this.
JCer says:
September 26, 2017 at 2:01 pm
liberals aren’t racist, I view this as the direction of the world. We are becoming more classist, I don’t mind people of any race or background but I don’t want to be around the poor. I get it to, being amongst people are similarly high socio-economic standing generally make life better.
Just looked at our budget. Police direct cash expenditures last year was $1,000 per household.
Try to take away our local force for this small town today and people will howl. Take away the state/local deductions…….
And that’s just the police.
3b, what is your obsession with the position of taking poor people and putting them in rich towns are a form of help? How is that helping anyone? You think the poor will all of a sudden change their lifestyle habits because they live amongst the rich?
Why can’t they fix up the communities they already live in? Why don’t they start with cleaning up their parks and neighborhoods instead of dropping garbage everywhere. You just don’t get it.
The police arriving in one minute or less is priceless. You think the rich wouldn’t pay 1,000 per household for this feature. It’s nothing to them, hence, why they demand it. You get a heart attack, and every second counts. Remember that.
leftwing says:
September 26, 2017 at 2:06 pm
Just looked at our budget. Police direct cash expenditures last year was $1,000 per household.
Try to take away our local force for this small town today and people will howl. Take away the state/local deductions…….
And that’s just the police.
That’s $3000 a year…increasing more every year.
But alas, you are probably right. The rich just convert their estates into farms and pay $200/year in property taxes instead.
The Great Pumpkin says:
September 26, 2017 at 2:03 pm
You think people in rich towns are going to give up home rule to save 3,000 dollars? Come on now.
When does the USFL start playing again?
Amen. I’m a Giants fan going to the days of the Yale bowl – my family goes back to the Polo grounds.. Sundays in the fall were religion but I am done. I already sent one email to the owner of a football site and the next go to John Mara and Roger Goodell. Believe it or not, I can’t find their contact information. I am done with the NFL. I never thought that would happen.
Jcer sorry but there is no difference. Liberals claim that those who identify as conservatives are racist and homophobes and many other horrible things. These very same liberals would be outraged if say some blue collar beer drinking fly the flag town protested about low income housing being built in their towns. If these people said we are just concerned about our property values liberals would howl the comment is closet racism. Liberals want social justice and all the rest they just want other towns or places to pay for it. If you don’t want to live with poor people many who are people of color and you scream about affordable housing except in your town. Than you are a racist and a secessionist. Period. My whole point in this has simply been to point out liberal hypocrisy and closet racism.
Pumps, the Buffet claim is a political driveby.
I don’t have the desire to track it down but if Buffet’s taxable income were higher than his secretary’s he’s going to pay a higher rate in taxes. Pretty clear cut.
My guess on the basis he made the political claim is that he ‘adjusted’ either his income or losses to something that was different than the taxable income on his return to be able to compare apples to oranges with his secretary.
Could be any scenario…..calculated his ‘income’ using cap gains but omitted offsetting cap losses for purposes of the statement….calculated his income including trusts or similar vehicles that were established by him but not under his control, thus inflating the income number for purposes of the statement….included unrealized gains in the income number for purposes of the statement……maybe the dude just took a token $1 in salary and had no other reportable income, that would make his marginal rate less than his secretary’s……..
One thing for sure….if his taxable income were more than his secretary’s and he actually paid a lower tax rate I don’t think he would be bragging…pretty sure he’d have more than few questions from the IRS…
Political theater.
Dfens when taxes reach almost 15 to 20k a year in some everyday towns than it becomes an issue.
No obsession just pointing out liberal hypocrisy and closet racism.
Pumps, don’t disagree with you on the benefits of super local police nor that (for me) the cost is worth the potential benefit.
You may want to check with Jcer though as was actually nearly having a heart attack on the increase expense he would face to pay for those services absent the Fed tax subsidy.
LW
Sure, Buffet’s tax return is probably 14,000 pages long… but just consider this simple scenario:
In the year(s) in question, Buffet made 99% of his income from long term capital gains while his secretary (who gets paid $200k+) made 99% of her income in wages.
The political talking point exaggerates both the fact that of course the super rich can avoid taxes and his secretary is hardly what people think about when they hear secretary.
expat: I think a shutter speed of 1/300 of a second or higher would be adequate to capture Pumpkin on film. Probably need to use a high ISO and manually set a higher exposure to catch indoor lighting. Bonus points if you get a shot through the window of a dude from Patterson in flagrante delicto with his wife.
Leftwing I know many in my town at peak earnings and they are all complaining about the taxes. Ironically many of these voted yes for every spending references over the years. The amount of municipal bond debt we have is staggering in my mind for a town of around 10k and no real commercial rateables.
It’s not so much that they can’t pay the increase its a combination of concern that buyers won’t pay their asking prices because of high taxes. The price being the only thing negotiable and two if I am almost paying 20k now what will taxes be in 5 or 10 years?
If that’s the case Joyce then the question is answered, easily. Yes, ordinary income and capital gains are taxed on different scales.
If that is the reason he’s claiming a lower marginal rate than his secretary it is a little disingenuous. The ordinary income tax rates are still highly progressive and on his salary he was still taxed at a higher rate than his secretary.
If the citizenry doesn’t want different rates on capital v ordinary income then change it. I’m not here to defend it.
BTW, I personally would get nicked pretty hard by the removal of the deductibility of state taxes. If the top federal tax rate fell from 39.6% back to 35%, and Murphy didn’t hike NJ’s top rate, the change would be close to a wash for me. If the deductibility disappeared without a top tax rate cut, it would probably cost me more than $50k/yr in taxes.
3b, I get it. Can only offer to plan accordingly. I made a relatively out of the box lifestyle decision based in part on those concerns especially because of my own timeframe.
Also, the school system is a bit of ‘golden handcuffs’. End of day the towns that hold/increase in value have the best commutes or schools, and the top tier towns have both. Nearly any school measure passes, even with empty nesters, because if it doesn’t and the school ratings tank so do values.
Leftwing: Understand. I am not sure school rankings and such are going to matter as much going forward for a number of reasons. One being that more people are starting to wake up to the fact that they don’t necessarily mean all that much.
No one I would get hit hard on that too.
Pumps is a classic Northern racist. He doesn’t care how high minorities climb on the socio-economic ladder, so long as they are not climbing near him.
A Southern racist doesn’t care how close by minorities live to him, he just doesn’t want to hear about or see any climbing going on at all.
Then why didn’t you raise your kids in some cheaper nj town or Florida? Actions speak louder than words.
3b says:
September 26, 2017 at 2:50 pm
Leftwing: Understand. I am not sure school rankings and such are going to matter as much going forward for a number of reasons. One being that more people are starting to wake up to the fact that they don’t necessarily mean all that much.
Again this individual does not or refuses to understand what I said.
I never said I was for or against multi family housing in suburban towns rich or otherwise. But it is and will continue to happen.
My point was and is once again simply and slowly is that if you identify as a liberal, (I do not, nor do I identify as a conservative), and all the causes that liberals claim to believe in, which I have already started more than once and yet you do not want these people in your town, you are a hypocrite and a racist. A closet racist but a racist nevertheless. And a segregationist. That was and is my point and remains my point. One wonders how this is so difficult to comprehend.
My other point on school rankings was also deliberately miscondctured. I said school rankings going forward are not as important as they ONCE were.
3b,
On the pumpkin who doesn’t want off-colored pumpkins in his patch.
Everyone knows that he’s a racist hypocrite.
Because he’s a landlord, he hates price controls on rent, yet he thinks price controls on wages are a great idea.
He likes government spending on the poor minorities, as long as it keeps them out of his wonderful town and neighborhood.
No one. He is the most comtradictory person I have ever engaged. And why don’t engage him at least going forward. I just don’t like when words are put in my mouth that I did not say. Perhaps pumpkins should have some turnips in the patch.
I should have said while I no longer engage him directly I will indirectly engage him if he puts words in my mouth.
When writing John Mara and Roger Goodell, mention how much you enjoyed OBJ’s dog taking a number 1 celebration.
Liberals…..conservatives……whatever. Nevermind.
Pumps uses his genes to bring lower class to better towns. His type is easy to pick out. Just look along the double yellow.
Then why didn’t you raise your kids in some cheaper nj town or Florida? Actions speak louder than words.
To all the posters calling me racist, have a question for you. If given a choice, would you open a business in the ghetto or an upper middle class town? Why?
If given the choice for sending your child to school, would you choose the ghetto or upper middle class? Why?
So how in the hell am I racist for not wanting to have ghetto neighbors? So let me get this straight, I busted my a$$ so that I could buy in a nicer town and then you want me to advocate to bring the people I paid a premium to avoid back into my life? I don’t want to live amongst the poor, their habits disgust me. Did I bring up race? You guys are nuts.
Your mindset changed. Young families still care about those damn rankings, just like you once did.
3b says:
September 26, 2017 at 4:10 pm
My other point on school rankings was also deliberately miscondctured. I said school rankings going forward are not as important as they ONCE were.
I never accused the individual in question of being a racist. I defined liberal hypocrisy. Not once did I mention the name of individual on this blog of being a racist. Period.
My point on school rankings remains people are starting to realize they are not as important as they once were and are in many cases subjective. The individual can do the real analysis were he so inclined. My mindset has not changed but rather evolved and I really don’t feel like like getting into it with one I am trying to ignore.
8:20 depends on the business. Lots of firms fail.
My point on school rankings remains people are starting to realize they are not as important as they once were and are in many cases subjective. The individual can do the real analysis were he so inclined. My mindset has not changed but rather evolved and I really don’t feel like like getting into it with one I am trying to ignore
Not sure if that’s true. In an environment where people are having less kids and having them later, we are seeing a drop off in students enrolled in k to about 2nd or 3rd grade. In the “top ranked” districts, enough families are moving in to offset that. This is still keeping property values sky high.
School rankings mean nothing for getting into college or even getting the best education. They do however help keep property values afloat. What people need to worry about is their ranking dropping off the side of a cliff with a careless admin stepping in. I’m watching it happen in a few districts as we speak.
Blue ribbon Bingo you hit it! People are starting to realize it doesn’t do much for getting into college! I live in a blue ribbon district and I have compared SAT scores in the past in my district with other surrounding districts and the difference in scores has been minimal in many cases. One year the math score in one town that is deemed non desirable with a large non English speaking population and not As it the difference in math SAT scores was only 10 points.
I have middle and upper middle class people I work with that have disgusting habits such as not washing their hands when they go to the bathroom!
“Progressive tax rates. Which to me are inherently unfair.”
Left here is the funny part. The US tax system is inherently regressive. People just cherry pick to make it seem progressive.
Its funny that people throw around the term Liberal but have not idea what it means.
Here is this weeks winner of “I don’t know what I’m talking about!” https://tinyurl.com/ycl9umc5
For me, I am not a Liberal, I am a Social Democrat. Think of it as a Libertarian with a social conscience.
“If you deem yourself a caring and compassionate liberal who supports my above mentioned traits and yet oppose multi family housing in your town than you are a hypocrite and a racist. ”
Again with the Liberal label. I got shouted down in a planning meeting by a few GOP for advocating for a sole Practitioner to hang a shingle on his Million plus Victorian. The planning was for the shingle and a to cut two parking spots into his driveway. It was a acre plus lot with a 75 Ft driveway. He wasn’t exactly short of space on the lot.
I was told “If I want to see that in our town I should move to Paramus!”
“liberals aren’t racist”
Again, someone who does not understand the history or the meaning of the ideology.
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“I am done with the NFL. I never thought that would happen.”
Whats the problem Snowflake?
Wow Joyce, we actually agree, but you missed a few big ones like carried interest and deferred income.
“Buffet made 99% of his income from long term capital gains while his secretary (who gets paid $200k+) made 99% of her income in wages.”
“OBJ’s dog taking a number 1 celebration.” As a Niners fan, I don’t have a dog in the game. #Pun
Have been listening to all sides of this and here’s what people are missing.
The big complaint seems to be how can he cause a 15yrd penalty when they are down 14-7 on a 0-3 start. Complete BS.
Scores an awesome TD, to bring the team to within one score with 12mins left in the fourth. This is not 15 yrs on a kickoff where they are going for an onside kick that they need with a Hail Mer! to even tie. The fact the Giants arn’t scoring TD’s is not down to OBJ. 20 seconds after the kickoff, Apple gets the pick. That negates everything OBJ did.
The Giants took a hard loss. That FG was brutal (and Awesome). But that and the loss is not on OBJ
And the anthem protests. This is all on Donnie, and Gary, you own it.
Outside of that it was funny watching Jerry Jones taking a knee before the game, it tells you its all about the money. When it was just Kap and a few others, it could be ignored and Kap not picked up, is a different discussion.
But now Donnie is p1$$ing on the owners and this has the possibility of now costing serious revenue. So now Jerry will take a knee to preserve the balance sheet, because how many Trump fans fill seats vs the rest of the country!
Fabius,
Are you going to start correcting people here when they mention Democrats or Republicans when their current platforms no longer align with their founding? Save us your feigned desire for consistency.
And I didn’t miss anything; as I said I gave LW a simple scenario to show him he was overthinking it.
Pumps – You are the textbook definition of ghetto.
jury-rigged, improvised, or home-made (usually with extremely cheap or sub-standard components), yet still deserving of an odd sense of respect from ghetto dwellers and non-ghetto dwellers alike
kind of like a big house on a dangerous highway, where no non-ghetto person would ever want to live, no?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ghetto
“Are you going to start correcting people here when they mention Democrats or Republicans”
No but at least in a discussion where you use D, You have R as a fair foil. When Lib gets thrown out, there is no counter to measure the argument against.
Again, take a look at this diagram.
https://tinyurl.com/ycl9umc5
Are you measuring Lib against fascIst> With DSA or CPA, you might have an argument , but no way with the Libs.
There is no Center Left, they are moderates, but Center Right are Conservatives? That is the problem, the bias skews perceptions.
Kaepernick’s message was always foul…between him wearing pig police officer socks to wearing a Fidel Castro shirt and shouting incorrect statistics on Cuba vs. the US. The guy is an uniformed kid and no one should be listening to him.
As far as him not being picked up, I’ve seen a million posts for people arguing to pick him up. I’ve seen a grand total of zero posts for someone advocating their own team picking him up. He and every other running quarterback is useless in the NFL. Running quarterbacks are good for 1 season max and then the league tears them apart…either by injuring them or just outsmarting them.
btw…as a Giants fan, I’m sick of Odel, he’s not mature enough to play a team sport.