From Bloomberg:
These Are the Tricks States May Use to Get Around the SALT Deduction
Exploiting tax loopholes is a sport associated with rich people and their fancy accountants. State governments may have to start getting fancy, too.
Republican Senate and House negotiators in Washington agreed last week on a $10,000 cap on state and local tax deductions, or SALT. In high-tax states, that’s bad news. Personal taxes are poised to rise for 13 percent of New Yorkers and 11 percent of California and New Jersey residents, according to an analysis by left-leaning Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, conducted after the bill’s final details were announced.
Financial planners and law professors to the rescue. It’s possible, they say, to concoct workarounds, like replacing income tax with payroll tax, and turning state tax into charitable donations. Far-fetched? Perhaps. But tax experts are already formulating ways to stop the feds from grabbing more take-home pay from Californians, New Yorkers and New Jerseyans while folks across America buy boats with the money they save.
“There are many hundreds of billions of dollars on the table over the next decade,” said David Kamin, a New York University School of Law professor. “There’s a lot of incentive for states to shift into forms of taxation that remain deductible.”
…
One tactic: Allow residents to make charitable gifts to the state instead of paying income tax.That would involve legislators encouraging residents to donate to, say, New Jersey (insert quip here), instead of paying income taxes. The self-interested philanthropists who took up the state on the offer would receive a state income-tax credit for the full amount of their gift, which would qualify for a federal deduction.
Wealthy taxpayers already use a similar ploy in 18 states that offer at least partial tax credits in return for donations to nonprofits that grant tuition vouchers to private and religious schools. It especially appeals to affluent filers who pay the alternative minimum tax, which doesn’t allow them to claim deductions for state and local levies.
…
The charitable-gift gambit isn’t the only potential loophole. States could quit relying on income tax, paid by individuals, and switch to payroll taxes, levied on employers, according to a Dec. 7 report, “The Games People Play,” by a group of tax experts that includes Kamin and Shanske.If employers pay the payroll tax and reduce employees’ salaries by the same amount, workers wouldn’t have to deduct anything and would wind up being paid the same amount. That would allow states to collect the same revenue while preserving individuals’ deductions on federal returns.
…
The tactics amount to a zero-sum game between state and federal governments. To the degree that statehouses succeed in clawing back part or all of their SALT deductions, federal tax collectors would miss out on revenue they’re depending on to fund the corporate tax cuts at the center of the overhaul plan.“The question is,’’ Davis said, “how far are the states going to push the envelope?”
Good Morning NJ
I used the single Bracket in my computation yesterday
This is for Married Bracket
Couple making $150,000 No KIDS
—> Current
$150,000- $8,100 Personal Exemption
= $141,900 – $33,900 Deductions 12,000 Property Tax+ 10,000 Mortgage Interest+$8,900 NJ State Tax+$3,000 Charity and Misc
= $108,000 Taxable Income
– 19,050 — 10% = 1,905
= $ 88,950
– 77,400 — 15% = 11,610
= $ 11,550 — 25% = 2,887 —> incomes to $156,150
Total Tax Paid 1,905+11,610+2,887= $16,402
—> Propose New Tax; No Deductions
$150,000- $24,000 Standard Deduction
= $126,000 Taxable Income
– 19,050 — 10% = 1,905
= $106,950
– 77,400 — 12% = 9,288
= $ 29,550 — 22% = 6,501 —> Incomes to $165,000
Total Tax Paid 1,905+9,288+6,501 = $17,694 <— Paying $1,292 MORE
Marketwatch has this calculator but the 12% bracket is max at $58,350 instead of $77,400 on link yesterday
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-new-trump-tax-calculator-what-do-you-owe-2017-10-26
Why are you taking a $3k charitable deduction in the first case, but not the second? Why are you not adjusting the post-tax income for the contribution in the first case.
Remove the $3k contribution and that creates $750 additional tax liability in the first case, dramatically reducing your gap. So now you are only talking about a $542 additional tax liability under the new code.
It’s like you are paying $3k to reduce the tax liability for $750, but not counting that payout anywhere.
I’m calling foul on that.
If you add two kids, does the new tax plan actually come out ahead?
$8100 in lost dependent exemptions at the 25% bracket are only worth $2025. At the 28% bracket, they are worth $2187.
The roughly 3% across-the-board brackets change the whole damn thing. Add the fact that SALT remains at $10k (better than nothing), and MID is retained. NJ dodged a bullet.
In fact, given that NY metro is home to the highest number of small businesses in the country, could turn out to be very beneficial.
Yome and Grim,
Thanks for the input. I suspect this new tax plan will be nothing but a ripple for us in Nj. I don’t believe the media at all. They suck and are driven by the lazy left. Typing from a cell here but this is a plus for those who produce and invest.
The previous tax brackets along with the wholesale elimination of SALT, the smaller child tax credits, would have changed the dynamic significantly.
$5 trillion redistributed to the 1 percent from the middle class. Put your head back in your ass, Gary, Nothing to see here.
Fast Eddie says:
December 19, 2017 at 7:34 am
Yome and Grim,
Thanks for the input. I suspect this new tax plan will be nothing but a ripple for us in Nj. I don’t believe the media at all. They suck and are driven by the lazy left. Typing from a cell here but this is a plus for those who produce and invest.
You guys factoring in bracket creep from chained CPI? 2018 could look a lot different than say 2020 or 2022. And it will definitely be different than 2027.
Can’t wait for the republitards to start crying about deficits when the dems take power next year.
Ottoman,
You’re a bitter, jealous f.uck. Seek help or man up and get over your shortcomings. The economy is doing better in one year than the eight years under the phony f.uck with big ears.
National debt expanded by $9 trillion during Obama’s administration. Even if you take the most optimistic liberal democratic estimations, Obama directly added $1 trillion.
This tax bill estimated at $1-1.5 trillion over 10 years (compared to 8 years above).
What’s the big deal?
Not to mention that income inequality expanded under Obama’s administration. In fact, at the end of his administration, wealth gaps were at the highest levels ever recorded.
@PaulKrugman
Susan Collins says she’s concerned about deficits, and that’s why she’s voting for the tax bill.
I’m watching my weight, and that’s why I’m having a huge piece of pie with ice cream.
@conradhackett
February disapproval ratings in first term
Reagan 18%
Bush 13%
Clinton 25%
Bush 21%
Obama 17%
Trump 56%
And 99% of that was because he bailed out Wall Street post 2007 crisis.
He should have let them burn.
—-
National debt expanded by $9 trillion during Obama’s administration. Even if you take the most optimistic liberal democratic estimations, Obama directly added $1 trillion.
Shark Tank (NJ Edition):
https://nypost.com/2017/12/19/former-shark-tank-contestant-arrested-in-cocaine-ring-bust/
Should have let them burn? Huh? They were in bed together. What universe do you live in?
Obama has more in common with a rich white banker than any other comparison you’d like to make.
Fast – The media isn’t driven by the left. The left wears the media as hand puppets. Then the media, needing their own hand puppets, shove their fists up bogus/massaged polls.
Thanks for the input. I suspect this new tax plan will be nothing but a ripple for us in Nj. I don’t believe the media at all. They suck and are driven by the lazy left. Typing from a cell here but this is a plus for those who produce and invest.
@MikieSherrill
Proud to announce that Essex, Passaic, Morris, and Sussex County Dems endorsed our campaign!
To beat Rep. Frelinghuysen and bring new leadership to the 11th, we will need everyone–from party leadership to our grassroots orgs.
I look forward bringing us together to win in 2018!
Fast it’s better than it was for NJ but a cap at 10k is still going to have an affect in my opinion. 10k property tax is a base in many north Jersey towns now. And the psychological aspect of it too when it comes to property taxes and property values.
Puppets wearing puppets
February disapproval ratings in first term
Reagan 18%
Bush 13%
Clinton 25%
Bush 21%
Obama 17%
Trump 56%
Republicans opted to make tax cuts for families temporary and reductions for businesses permanent.
On TV right now CNN is switching back and forth between these huge banners:
CNN POLL: PRES. TRUMP HAS A 35% APPROVAL RATING
CNN POLL: 55% OPPOSE GOP TAX PLAN
What they fail to say is it is a poll of people working at CNN
Puppets wearing puppets.
Puppets squared?
There will be special tax incentives for thrice divorced imbeciles with multiple bankruptcies.
And we didn’t forget to allow write/offs for collectors of Nazi memorabilia.
^^^ExJersey is today’s puppet of the day.
Let’s take a step back.
What was the purpose of this tax reform? To simplify the tax code? My hairy bottom!
To artificially juice the stock market? Does anyone here really thing this will expand hiring?
And what for? Stock buybacks and dividend increases help the wealthy because they are the ones vested in the market. Plus, unemployment is near record lows.
When it’s all said and done, the rich get richer, the poor get a few crumbs and the middle class pay more. The divide between the have and the have nots is expanded at a faster pace than ever before. Small businesses, unless it’s a niche product, is going to get eaten by mighty Amazon.
The truth is, this so-called tax reform is wholly unnecessary, extremely disruptive and we don’t have an effin’ clue of the unintended consequences. Like ACA, it’s another huge boon to the wealthy. What’s new? Send in your campaign contributions.
Dem platform for 2020:
“Aren’t You Tired of Winning? MALA – Make America Losers Again”
9:04 i will shove my fist so far up your ass you’ll be my puppet….bitch.
9:05. But how else will we preserve the oligarchs??
If we don’t incentivize wealth nobody will want any and Bernie Sanders will be POTUS.
And what for? Stock buybacks and dividend increases help the wealthy because they are the ones vested in the market.
Dow on track for best quarterly gain in 5 years.
Answer honestly:
If they could, wouldn’t the Democrat party like to tank the economy right now?
Mikie Sherrill is a Montclair liberal who doesn’t even live in the district. They can create as many fake news polls as they want but I don’t think her message will be well received in those parts.
Bloomberg reporting has seriously gone downhill over the last five years but this has to be one of the stupidest things written. Who the hell are they employing?
“One tactic: Allow residents to make charitable gifts to the state instead of paying income tax. That would involve legislators encouraging residents to donate to, say, New Jersey (insert quip here), instead of paying income taxes.”
Yeah, that’ll turn out well. Dumbass.
Does anyone here really thing this will expand hiring?
Look $500, $600, $700 billion a year in annual deficits is no big deal right? What could possibly go wrong?
US deficits in billions last decade…. (yes 2017 is the number of the beast)
2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017
$458 $1,413 $1,294 $1,295 $1,087 $679 $485 $438 $585 $666
My old company, a really crappy S&P 500 company, contributes something like 2-3% of equivalent salary into their underpaid employees’ 401K plans, whether they like it or not. It’s not a match, employees get the money put there no matter what. They have an ESOP too, same deal. So $15/hour workers have skin in the stock market whether they like it or not. I guess they can (and probably do) withdraw it immediately and pay the tax and penalty, but those who don’t have to be pretty pleased.
9:19 most people are struggling. Thus the stock sale. This tax bill will do nothing for most people and add more cash to flush corporate interests.
Why Trump won in 2016 and why the Repubs will keep the WH…
After months of bashing, weeks of shrill calls about the ‘unfair’ the tax plan, hours of the batsh1t crazy musty old VT soc1alist polluting the airwaves with his billionaire issues yesterday, this morning with the tax plan a locked and done deal CBS This Morning runs these two lines in screen size font outlined in red for their lead in story:
80% of Americans will see their taxes cut
5% of Americans will see a tax increase
I am more skeptical than most of the general level of intelligence of the public. But they do see and remember this one sided garbage. And hold it against the MSM candidate. Pile on baby, Warren/Sanders in 2020! With a strong DiBlasio endorsement! Woo-hoo, let it roll.
We’ll see how much 80 percent of the population ‘save’ on their taxes. Do the math on what corporations will save.
“80% of Americans will see their taxes cut
5% of Americans will see a tax increase”
P.T. Barnum couldn’t have sold it better.
How about a Trump Steak while you’re at it? You know, you can’t get these steaks in stores!
9:31 savage
That has to be patently false. 85% of Americans aren’t even employed and almost half those that are employed already pay zero.
“80% of Americans will see their taxes cut
5% of Americans will see a tax increase”
Does anyone think any foreign banks will fail due to repatriation? Sure, most multi-nationals have their off-shore assets in treasuries, but treasuries are just pixels on a screen until you move the funds to another institution.
Yes it is a big deal, because the country can’t afford it and it does not give any long term benefit. It’s just raiding the Treasury like a third world country.
So O is only on the hook for 1T, the other 8T can go to GWB, with Medicat, his tax cuts (again we couldn’t afford) and the two wars.
DOW up 25% under T he still lags O who was up 30% at this point.
To beat O on the DOW T needs to hit DOW 50K
Re: “country can’t afford it”
Says who? When is the last time anyone cut gross spending?
“So O is only on the hook for 1T, the other 8T can go to GWB, with Medicat, his tax cuts (again we couldn’t afford) and the two wars.”
LOL, people got totally fed up with O still blaming GWB for anything bad two years into his first four year term. Good to see the diehard Libs are still carrying the banner!
DOW up 25% under T he still lags O who was up 30% at this point.
When the DOW was around 6 and change, did you really think it wasn’t going to climb? It had nowhere else to go. A dead f.ucking puppy could have been propped up as prez and we would have had the same result. To think Oblammy had anything to do with gains in the market or economic growth is out loud laughable.
The headline article sounds awfully close to what a layman would consider tax fraud.
If Trump would have gone all in on infrastructure you would see me singing his praises right now. But a Corp tax break?! Seriously
10:14 I get it you’re a banker, the guy bailed you out along w/ GW and O slammed your asses with restrictions. He should have state – i – fied your assss.
Damn right.
He could give you a handy and you’d still be complaining about grip or lube.
If Trump would have gone all in on infrastructure you would see me singing his praises right now.
I think the next phase will be CNN and MSNBC fabricating their own IEDs. I don’t really care, they’ll only be blowing up Democrats.
I realize $2000/yr extra is nothing to you but to a guy making $50000/yr it’s a 4% raise.
People blather on about their $35K worth of SALT they will no longer be able to deduct, but there are probably more people in the above situation (50K salary or less) working two jobs with kids living in an apartment in NJ.
ExJersey says:
December 19, 2017 at 9:25 am
9:19 most people are struggling. Thus the stock sale. This tax bill will do nothing for most people and add more cash to flush corporate interests.
For a married couple making 19K to 77.4K, the tax goes from 15% to 12%. How the f.uck is this making the “poor” pay more? Who cares about the top rate! It doesn’t control your life, so why the f.uck do the m0rons on the left care what top earners are doing? Who gives a flying f.uck? If you invested in a 401K or individual holdings, you should be rejoicing! Move if you don’t like the outcome. Holy sh1t, what a bunch of whining cunts you guys are!
“We’ll see how much 80 percent of the population ‘save’ on their taxes.”
“P.T. Barnum couldn’t have sold it better.”
Stu, really disappointed you throw your view in with some of the clowns on here on this one.
These comments are the height of East Coast liberalism and ignorance. You sit here and demean an $800 tax savings to the average Red state family, earning $65k or so a year?
Which one of you assh0les has actually spent any appreciable time with and in the homes of these people recently?
You can sit here and poo-poo the amount of the tax break to these families. It shows the same disregard and self centeredness around the SALT debate. People well into the top 10% of earnings and wealth with multiple homes whining. Disgusting.
$800 to these people buys more Christmas presents than their kids have seen in years. It’s a summer vacation this year – yeah, no family shore homes there, just the ability to finally rent a week at an efficiency cabin they couldn’t previously afford on a small lake where you bring your own food and sheets….
If the amount they are saving through the tax plan is so meaningless, you bunch of apparently big swinging d1cks, then I challenge you to go out and stuff $800 in the Salvation Army kettle today for the holiday season. Or STFU.
Merry Chr1stmas and Happy Holidays, you arrogant entitled pr1cks.
This R vs D thing.
Can we just admit that both sides are criminals already.
There is enough empirical evidence to conclude this with certainty.
Adding trillions of debt to the younger generations is not the right answer even if I get a tax cut from it. Maybe its my thinking because I have a child.
Growing businesses in the USA- companies are looking for the path of least resistance, just like lightning. As Grim has mentioned, outsourcing, AI, things like this are just going to accelerate. Tax breaks are not going to help this trend.
There was a show where a company was training prospective hires. They gave a group of these hires a task to do at separate stations, a manufacturing task. The group was unable to meet the benchmark requested. The manager went to one station and showed the employee how changing the equipment slightly would have helped tremendously, and that this was the answer he was looking for. He expected the employee to go to management and give them ideas on how to make this work better and faster. He then said ” this is the information we need to help teach the robots smarter” basically saying that this will become part of the AI in the future.
What a future ahead..
THE FOUR LARGEST – 1 out of every 3 Americans (33%) lives
in just 4 US states – California, Texas, Florida and New York.
These 4 states were home to 107.5 million citizens at the end of
2016 out of our nation’s population of 323.1 million (source:
Census Bureau). 1/30/17 #10
DO I REALLY NEED IT? – Only 36% of all jobs in the United
States require education beyond high school, i.e., 64% of
American jobs require a high school diploma or less. 27% of
jobs do not require any formal educational credential (source:
Department of Labor). 2/27/17 #8
@kylegriffin1
By 2027, 53% of all Americans would pay more in taxes under the final Republican tax bill, a new analysis by the Tax Policy Center finds.
That year, 82.8% of the bill’s benefit would go to the top 1 percent.
Phoenix,
Exactly. I shared this story years ago. I was out at our digital facility in Ohio. There was an employee there coating multiple small quantities of covers for some annual reports using a coating machine. The problem was, the machine required a manual feed and about the first three of every new cover would get destroyed by the machine as the operator would have to adjust for the weight and the thickness of the stock (paper). Then, he would order more of the damaged covers to be reprinted starting the whole painful process over again. I asked him why he didn’t just find some blank pieces of stock or even waste stock to setup the machine so he wouldn’t ruin the originals. The operator thought I was Albert Einstein.
Our future is not so bright.
financed by the Chinese
@ThePlumLineGS
In 2018, here’s what happens:
Bottom quintile gets an average tax cut of $60.
Second quintile gets an average tax cut of $380.
Top 1% gets an average tax cut of $51,140.
Top 0.1% gets an average tax cut of $193,380.
Congress and the Department of Justice should investigate these revelations. They ought to light a fire under US efforts to renegotiate a nuclear deal so as to end its sunset provisions as well as to reinvigorate efforts to crack down on Hezbollah. But it may be that the country is so obsessed with Trump’s uncivil discourse that it may not care much about Obama aiding and abetting terrorism. If so, you don’t have to be a fan of Trump’s to understand there is something deeply wrong with giving Obama a pass for decisions that look far worse than anything Trump is accused of doing.
https://nypost.com/2017/12/18/now-this-is-presidential-obstruction/
Left,
Not elitist at all. I have no issue giving some crumbs to the screwed. Where I have an issue is giving the rich even more. The growing income gap will absolutely destroy this country. This tax reform is truly nothing more than a huge gift to those well off and a stocking stuffer to those not so well off. Most companies are sitting on top of loads of cash right now. How is giving them more going to help the common man in any way. Giving Joe Bluecollar and extra two meals at Denny’s is doing little more than trying to keep the R’s in power. Trump is not fixing anything at all except the next election. There is no REAL tangible benefit to this reform. If there is, I would like to hear about it.
Can we just admit that there isn’t a single Democrat in congress that wants to help a single one of their constituency unless they are illegal aliens?
I just don’t hear a blessed thing about what Democrats want to do for citizens.
leftwing,
As you are aware I am going thru something you have experienced in the past. Not fun by any means.
Met a guy in the laundry, swapping war stories.
Guy makes 55k, living in Jersey. Wife is hurt with severe back injury,disabled, can’t bend to do laundry. 2 kids, one in college, one in high school. Driving older car with 180k miles, working 2 jobs, making payments to the IRS as he can’t afford to eat if he pays the full amount. Says they are reasonable if you work with them. Tough life.
Some people
Puzzy, you really can’t be so stupid as to see any validity in what you cut and paste? Please say it ain’t so……
In other words, the amount of one’s tax cut actually depends on the amount of taxes one pays in the first place? In the absolute these numbers have no meaning? You can’t get a tax brak of $50k if you only pay $10k in taxes to start?
So, for it to have any meaning, please provide the average tax cuts relative to the average taxes paid for each group. The percentage.
Hint: I can tell you already the bottom quintile gets the ‘most’. Since they pay no taxes anyway, Rubio’s hold out provision giving them hard cash ‘refunds’ on moneys not paid means their percentage is infinite. Thats $60 back over $0 paid for your third grade math comprehension.
You’d fail the ninth grade in a non-blue ribbon school district here lol.
Sounds good to me. If you are a manager at Burger King I don’t think you should get a $193,380 tax cut.
Bottom quintile gets an average tax cut of $60.
Second quintile gets an average tax cut of $380.
Top 1% gets an average tax cut of $51,140.
Top 0.1% gets an average tax cut of $193,380.
Juice
So are you saying that we can afford it?
To this day, I still can’t figure out what goes on in Obama’s brain. The only thing I’m 100% sure of is that he is an antisemite.
BTW, what the hell was that deal with him vetoing 9/11 victims ability to sue the Saudis? He had zero support in ALL of congress so he was overridden. What is going on his mind?
I’m not loving on the Dems one iota. They are just as bad. Maybe worse. They prey on minorities.
The Senate took the first step Wednesday, voting 97-1 to override Obama’s veto of the 9/11 bill. The House quickly followed with a 348-77 vote.
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/senate-jasta-228841
How the f.uck can a POTUS have a different agenda than ALL of congress?
“Crumbs to the screwed”
Here is what I would propose.
Bottom quintile gets an average tax cut of $65.
Second quintile gets an average tax cut of $385.
Top 1% gets an average tax cut of $0.
Top 0.1% gets an average tax cut of $0.
Better?
They don’t just prey on them, they out and out oppress them. They need a permanent underclass to survive so it’s obvious how keeping out illegals and raising the wealth prospects of the lower class go 180 degrees counter to their agenda.
I’m not loving on the Dems one iota. They are just as bad. Maybe worse. They prey on minorities.
“Crumbs to the screwed”
Isn’t that the Politicus’ Oath?
@ThePlumLineGS
In 2018, here’s what happens:
Statistical fraud to start with quintiles, and finish with 0.1%. What is the estimated tax savings by quintile, for all 5 quintiles?
For the holidays, the gift that keeps on giving-a pension…
https://patch.com/new-jersey/princeton/nj-lawmakers-fast-track-plan-boost-politicians-pensions
Gary
Did anyone think it would even get to a 6 handle?
Did anyone think it would stop there?
They prey on minorities.
That’s the left’s only agenda. Snuff out the weak and brainwash them.
I am still waiting to here from someone, anyone (besides Grim’s fancy hooch business), how this tax reform is helping anything at all. That’s the REAL problem with it.
At least ACA covered those without preexisting conditions, but at too high a cost. It’s just too hard to please the insurance industry while trying to lower their profits and maintain their lobby dollars. What’s Trump’s excuse?
I think future presidential elections should be held just in Ohio.
He just doesn’t get it. Why should the richest Americans get a huge tax break at the expense of the people beneath them? Maybe we are just mental midgets and lefty is correct here.
Libturd, AKA Dr. Howie Feltersnatch says:
December 19, 2017 at 10:51 am
Left,
Not elitist at all. I have no issue giving some crumbs to the screwed. Where I have an issue is giving the rich even more. The growing income gap will absolutely destroy this country. This tax reform is truly nothing more than a huge gift to those well off and a stocking stuffer to those not so well off. Most companies are sitting on top of loads of cash right now. How is giving them more going to help the common man in any way. Giving Joe Bluecollar and extra two meals at Denny’s is doing little more than trying to keep the R’s in power. Trump is not fixing anything at all except the next election. There is no REAL tangible benefit to this reform. If there is, I would like to hear about it.
Phoenix. Read about the pension bill yesterday. This one is really a matter of fairness and closes an unforeseen issue that another passed bill forgot to consider. This one really amounts to little and will help few.
Now stop the double-dipping. That would be something. Obvious. Easy. Bad for the political class in NJ. Will never happen.
And people still cheer on their parties.
“Maybe we are just mental midgets and lefty is correct here.”
I go off Pumpkin ignore to say, “HE FINALLY GETS IT!”
My friends in red states with low taxes are going to have a net gain.
Shareholders generally are going to have a net gain.
Did Al Franken Resign yet?
Just as laughable to give credit to trump. I called this how long ago and I had no idea trump would be president. If anything, Obama brokered the deals to keep the economy from crashing into oblivion. I’ll give him that.
Fast Eddie says:
December 19, 2017 at 10:14 am
DOW up 25% under T he still lags O who was up 30% at this point.
When the DOW was around 6 and change, did you really think it wasn’t going to climb? It had nowhere else to go. A dead f.ucking puppy could have been propped up as prez and we would have had the same result. To think Oblammy had anything to do with gains in the market or economic growth is out loud laughable.
Phoenix, feel for you. And more for that guy. If your PSA isn’t complete some really random things I discovered/wish I did differently:
End of the day there is a reasonably narrow bandwith on support. Basically 40% of the difference between your two incomes. No court/lawyer would ever attest to it but that is the yardstick. Obvious point of contention is what is the meaning of income. Try to keep lawyers, soon to be ex, and most importantly the ‘friends’ chirping in her ear reasonable. Find a mutually trusted friend that may be able to help you guys outside of lawyers. I actually pulled in my soon to be ex BIL for a couple casual eats with his sister during the process. Tried to give her a reasonable, trusted ear to rely upon rather than the chorus of ‘friends’ who I find typically counterproductive. He’s a WS guy so ‘got’ the statutory and financial side as opposed to the ‘wantlist’ being pushed by girlfriends.
Child support keys off of PPR and time spent at each residence and actually is formulaic. From the start we knew we were going to be 50/50. She could have tried to run me on time to get more $ but didn’t. I stepped up with bigger numbers and a longer term. I also stepped up to carve out most of what CS was supposed to cover so I am in a position where she is making good personal coin off what should be CS. Advice here, know the formula (have your attorney run it for you now under different scenarios, it’s easy, it’s a software calculator and probably even online). Also, know what is included by statute in the payments you make. Lots of googled sites will inform you. Be careful of the carveouts that she should be paying from the CS. I gave up way too many (why give up any at all?) and regret it.
Understand who the client is. Not you. I had two sets of attorneys, both more than once each made comments like “I can’t do that, I have to deal with this court/lawyer in the future”. While you expect the fiduciary relationship, your attorney WILL be more concerned with satisfying the court.
What satisfies the court? A settled case. Family courts are so backed up they will do anything to settle. You are supposed to have one, maybe two or three, ISCs. We had seven. The Court will bring you in for a hearing in the morning and instead put you in a conference room to negotiate and not release you until the end of day. And no judge (or financial expert) wants to make any decision that can be reviewed. My attorney informed me early on my case was not going to trial as my judge was going to be put up for a move to Superior Court. According to counsel no way they were going to put him on the spot of deciding a contentious case and being reviewed in that position. Hurt me at first (case dragged on forever). Helped me later when ex’s lawyer decided to get cute after the settlement was read into the record and he came back with 22 additional items. My answer to all of them was “tell the court we have an unsettled case and are going to trial”. Drove my attorney nuts (“you’re making me look bad in front of the court”). Enabled me to knock back his late requests. Ditto the financial expert. Forced to pay him nearly $100k, yet every valuation came back stamped ‘Draft’ (can’t sue someone for a not final work product). Got valuation more than halved after insisting he go ‘Final’ with the challengeable assumptions he had in the report and informing him I would deal with his firm separately and later. Valuation promptly cut, report stayed Draft.
Get a couple settled PSAs similar to your situation, look at them, be familiar with details in them important to you. Details do matter. When at one of those courtroom meetings in lieu of trial you are finally declared ‘settled’ they will literally whisk you into the courtroom and have everything read into the record. That is your settlement, to be transcribed and signed. There are many material details other than the big three (alimony, CS, custody). If you know what you want and get it into the record you can get a good deal. Remember, at that point in front of the judge the other side just mostly concedes as they don’t want to make huge issues and be seen as obstructionist in front of the judge.
Lastly for this way too long post already, I have had friends who have lump summed alimony and friends paying alimony over time. If you do alimony over time while negotiating get in there a firm buyout – DCF with an agreed rate after taxes. You’ll thank yourself in the future. Alimony and CS is not just the money, it’s also forcing you to keep a relationship with ex. There may come a time when you want and have the means to buy her out, get it contractually.
Good luck. Been there and don’t want to ever do that again…..
Son, like I’ve told you many times before, people won’t realize how stupid you are until you open your pie hole and tell them. Now go eat your rivell soup and then get started on your GED homework.
Maybe we are just mental midgets
“Here is what I would propose.
Bottom quintile gets an average tax cut of $65.
Second quintile gets an average tax cut of $385.
Top 1% gets an average tax cut of $0.
Top 0.1% gets an average tax cut of $0.
Better?”
Good by me. Change the last two lines to tax increases if you want to, if you actually simplify the code by striking deductions and going toward a flat type tax.
I’m not happy with the consumer side of this bill. No overriding philosophy. Just spray painting everything a slightly different color.
Met a guy in the laundry, swapping war stories.
I have so many laundry stories it would take me days to tell them all (and actually, none of them involve white underwear turning pink). When I first graduated college I moved right to my first apartment as I was gainfully employed minutes out of school (novel concept, eh?). No laundry facilities in my bachelor pad so I used to go to a laundromat in Lincoln Park (my first place was in Pequonnock, my second place was in Wayne).
The laundromat was in a strip mall next to an A&P supermarket (remember those?) so I used to do some grocery shopping after my laundry. In those first few months of going directly from college dorm/apartment life to “real adult” life I was unprepared for one thing. It was very quiet. I had a girlfriend, but she lived about 20 miles away so we didn’t usually see each other during the week. Quiet, very quiet. Work was actually way more fun than home.
I just saw a Dem on MSNBC say that it will take a decade to undo “the damage” from this tax bill. I guess he’s conceding it will take that long for his party to get back in power.
@tedlieu
Dear @MEPFuller: Here are the tax brackets.
[Billionaires]: Make out like bandits
[Folks with estates over $22 million]: See above
[Donald Trump]: See above
[Middle Class]: Some will have their taxes increase now & most by 2027
[Poor]: GOP doesn’t recognize that category
I approve. BTW, if you don’t pay any Federal income taxes who cares about your tax rate? It’s less than zero. How much lower than zero do we need to make it and how much do you want to incentivize being poor?
Dear @MEPFuller: Here are the tax brackets.
[Billionaires]: Make out like bandits
[Folks with estates over $22 million]: See above
[Donald Trump]: See above
[Middle Class]: Some will have their taxes increase now & most by 2027
[Poor]: GOP doesn’t recognize that category
I’m going to Chik-fil-A for lunch. I’ve been hungry for same since Sunday, but they weren’t open for some reason;-)
LOL
https://www.local10.com/community/chick-fil-a-opens-sunday-to-feed-stranded-passengers-at-atlanta-airport
It’s nice that you’ve decided who is deserving and who is not.
Daddy,
The people that pay almost nothing in taxes hardly get a piece of the pie. Want them to pay more taxes, well then give them a bigger piece of the pie.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-19/retiring-early-just-might-kill-you-says-new-research-eco-pulse
How long before music is not free anymore. Lucky to have experienced the internet before they took full control of it for profit.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-19/youtube-pacts-with-universal-sony-music-to-allow-paid-service
full control? Last time I checked, you can bittorrent a band’s entire discography in about 3 minutes flat. Why do you feel entitled to listen to someone’s musical work for free?
Want them to pay more taxes, well then give them a bigger piece of the pie.
They’ll get a bigger piece of the pie when they earn it. Work, save, study, try harder…. see how that goes?
Incorrigible
As per usual, you have it backwards son.
The people that pay almost nothing in taxes hardly get a piece of the pie. Want them to pay more taxes, well then give them a bigger piece of the pie.
https://theintercept.com/2017/12/15/charles-barkley-doug-jones-democrats-black-vote/
no voting bloc has been more faithful to the Democratic Party with less to show for it than African-Americans.
Among Alabama voters, an astounding 98 percent of black women cast their vote for Jones, according to exit polls. And 93 percent of black men who voted also cast their vote for Jones.
No other constituency or demographic came close to this type of support on either side. White men without college degrees, for instance, constituted Moore’s strongest demographic of support — but only came in at 79 percent support.
For Jones to narrowly eke out a win took near unanimous black support and turnout in black communities — support and turnout levels that appear to rival even former President Barack Obama’s landmark 2008 election.
Barkley is right that there’s an imbalance in the way black folks turn out for Democrats like Jones versus the way those Democrats then turn around and treat them. Unlike Obama’s election, the black vote is in essence used by Democrats to advance white politicians’ power.
Consider these facts: The United States does not have a single black governor of the 50 states; only one of the 50 states currently has an African-American attorney general; just two African-American Democrats serve in the United States Senate — two!
And it’s not just the politicians themselves, these imbalances are built into the power structures politicians have built around themselves, too. Every United States senator has a chief of staff. Guess how many of those are black? Two! And both of them are Republicans! Each U.S. senator has a communications director; only one is black, and he also works for a Republican. Democratic National Committee Chair Tom Perez recently posted a photo of the last crop of interns to work for the party — and almost all the faces were white.
You get taxed on what you earn. You want to pay less taxes? It’s simple, earn less.
“and almost all the faces were white.”
Yet, the Democratic National Convention looked like the BET Awards. Hmmm.
Here’s the outside the box thinking I would apply to you tax law. I don’t know where the window is, but let’s say for argument’s sake, $55,000 family income. ZERO income tax on any income earned between $55,000 and $65,000. If states followed suit all the better. Instead of people trying to curtail their reportable income they would…well you tell me. What would you expect from human nature?
I don’t know the right numbers for something like this, but I know people. If you put free money just above their reach those same people will suddenly get taller.
I would rather see less government than lower taxes. Which is funny, as less government would lead to lower taxes.
Here, here! I think Trump will go in that direction if he can get footing.
I would rather see less government than lower taxes. Which is funny, as less government would lead to lower taxes.
Us the carrot and stick (tax free window) to lead people to higher incomes and cut the hell out of silly and wasteful government cheese.
If you have access to C-SPAN right now you should watch. It’s highly entertaining.
Wish I could. Too busy.
Dems and repubs both look to screw you. Sad there are such restrictions in place for Third parties to get on ballots as well as get on debates, etc.
Sad, and intentional.
Intention by the repubs and democrats of course. How are so many so called “smart” people so damn dumb when it comes to getting screwed by politicians.
We get to listen (read) Pumpkin’s full catalog of comments for free. Sure, it diminishes productivity, has no viable value, and lowers the positive nature of all who read it,….but it’s still free.
full control? Last time I checked, you can bittorrent a band’s entire discography in about 3 minutes flat. Why do you feel entitled to listen to someone’s musical work for free?
Marketing is a powerful thing. How did Hitler convince the population to kill their friends and neighbors in cold blood? Or Pol Pot. Or Mussolini. Or…
What leads you to this conclusion?
Daddy Deported says:
December 19, 2017 at 1:44 pm
Here, here! I think Trump will go in that direction if he can get footing.
@repjohnlewis
I oppose this conference report with every bone in my body.
This tax bill is a $2.3 trillion holiday gift for Wall Street, the rich, and the wealthy.
Conceived in darkness and birthed with the help of donors and funders. This bill is not for the people.
It is not tax reform.
Lib – Did Gator call into CSPAN today? I just heard a call that sounded like your situation (NJ, itemizes, etc…)
Not that I know of.
This tax reform really screws with people who itemize a lot of different things (me).
@StephenKing
The tax cuts are welfare for the rich. If you’re working or middle class, bend over, because…
Well, you know why.
voting in the house….
Because you are a Democrat and that’s how your Daddy taught you to take it.
The tax cuts are welfare for the rich. If you’re working or middle class, bend over, because…
Well, you know why.
Here’s my issue, you eliminate the SALT deduction while leaving the majority of the tax code intact including the AMT, the pass through deduction is a giveaway to real estate owners and people with passive incomes and really has no positive benefit to the economy despite the fact that I’ll benefit somewhat from it. They should have just done the corporate tax overhaul if this was going to be the outcome. I think the repatriation tax is a good idea but too high, a nominal 5-10% tax to bring funds back in is a good idea, the more money you bring the lower the rate and they should have but a time restriction to put impetus on companies to act quickly. We should be territorial on taxation and we shoudl try to keep corp HQ’s here.
passed
12 R votes against. On to 10 hours of debate in the Senate.
Who ultimately pays corporate taxes? Back when Obama was proposing corporate tax reform, this was an issue that people of different ideological stripes were willing to discuss honestly, and most admitted it’s a combination of workers and shareholders. Now, however, 99% of media commentary appears to assume it’s obvious all benefits of tax reform going “to the rich”. So these people who fancy themselves nuanced intellectuals who see everything in shades of grey and see both sides of every issue, have dropped all pretext of sophistication to just hammer everything Trump with all their might. Might lower US tax rates attract more companies to locate facilities in the US, on the margin? No, never! Only rich fat cats and racist people could ever benefit from anything proposed by Trump! To consider anything else is forbidden!
Circus time.
Libturd,
Can you do a Corker LLC for your property?
No One.
Pie in the sky. There’s plenty to hammer Trump on. This will not be good for the economy. You will see. It will be good for the economy of the wealthy. And these headquarter jobs? Who do they go to? Outside of the janitors, the receptionists and the cafeteria staff. Those jobs are going to the wealthy. Best of all? We get unnecessary debt, as the economy is actually humming along at a decent controlled pace. I ask again, what is to be gained from this tax reform?
The answer is yes you can use a pass-though entity and take a 20% deduction in addition to your business expenses, depreciation, etc. That is my understanding of the current version of the bill.
It’s always been in an LLC. I am currently working on transferring the deed to the property. That’s not my only itemized deduction though. We half self employment stuff, medical stuff, childcare stuff.
Can’t wait until they just send me an itemized bill for every YouTube video I watch. Learned how to fix your own widget? That’ll be $29.99.
Blue Ribbon Teacher says:
December 19, 2017 at 1:16 pm
full control? Last time I checked, you can bittorrent a band’s entire discography in about 3 minutes flat. Why do you feel entitled to listen to someone’s musical work for free?
Now can we get back to the important stuff: Uranium One.
Besides, an artist wants to make money off music, then go tour. YouTube is a free platform for artists to advertise their product. So spare me the bs. How many artists blew up because their unknown self had a YouTube video go viral. Justin Bieber anyone.
Pumps – Maybe be proactive and get some help now with your Hello Kitty addiction?
Can’t wait until they just send me an itemized bill for every YouTube video I watch.
BTW, did you start on your homework yet?
Pancake in a can on sale today, down 8.33%. Just .0011 per share for NHMD right now, a new all time low.
Maybe now the central bank can allow old people to collect interest on their savings again, if they think their many years of calls for “fiscal stimulus” are being answered.
On a lighter note. Does anyone know how to cook kielbasa. I got fresh homemade kielbasa as an Xmas gift. And have no idea how to cook it. Keep it clean boys and girls.
voting to begin 10 hours of debate on the bill in the Senate right now.
Step 1: Hide it
On a lighter note. Does anyone know how to cook kielbasa. I got fresh homemade kielbasa as an Xmas gift. And have no idea how to cook it. Keep it clean boys and girls.
Step 2: unHide it;-)
Rinse, repeat.
10 hours of debate in the Senate begins now. I *think* the GOP has a way to shorten their time, but I’m not sure.
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I guess the Republicans have embraced Trump. Probably a huge mistake, but we’ll see. Could make for some embarrassing times.
I still don’t understand what your rental property has to do with itemized deductions. If the property was in your name, you would still report the incomes & expenses on schedule e (or is it c?) … and if it’s in an LLC, isn’t there another form for that?
Either way, nothing to do with schedule a.
Libturd, AKA Dr. Howie Feltersnatch says:
December 19, 2017 at 2:59 pm
It’s always been in an LLC. I am currently working on transferring the deed to the property. That’s not my only itemized deduction though. We half self employment stuff, medical stuff, childcare stuff.
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Schedule E.
And you are correct about the itemization.
‘National debt expanded by $9 trillion during Obama’s administration. Even if you take the most optimistic liberal democratic estimations, Obama directly added $1 trillion.
This tax bill estimated at $1-1.5 trillion over 10 years (compared to 8 years above).
What’s the big deal?’
You’re comparing everything in eight years to this one bill, if I’m reading you correctly.
There was talk of infrastructure spending yesterday. Add in the promise of increased military spending. 2017’s budget deficit was almost $700b.
Wasn’t Obama’s 2010 tax cut a trillion dollars?
What’s different this time oh wait the party of people who claim victory over it.
Bitcoin – Ruh-Roh!
Expat,
Are you on sabbatical?
Can’t wait until they just send me an itemized bill for every YouTube video I watch. Learned how to fix your own widget? That’ll be $29.99.
Oh, in addition to spamming the board, you watch youtube videos all day as well. Where’s your boss?
Blue he must work for the government, there is no way he has this much free time while working a good paying job…….
Besides, an artist wants to make money off music, then go tour. YouTube is a free platform for artists to advertise their product. So spare me the bs. How many artists blew up because their unknown self had a YouTube video go viral. Justin Bieber anyone.
Not nearly as many that worked through the old system of gaining an underground following prior to blowing up. Music has been absolute crap the past 15 years. Most modern “musicians” are completely devoid of talent and couldn’t shine the jock strap of those that came before them from 1940 to 2000.
But, don’t let me stop you from listening to Justin Bieber.
Next thing you know YouTube will put commercials before their videos to make money for them and the publishers.
‘Music has been absolute crap the past 15 years. Most modern “musicians” are completely devoid of talent and couldn’t shine the jock strap of those that came before them from 1940 to 2000’
old-man-yells-at-cloud.gif
Snother train without positive train control, I wonder if this conductor sleep apnea test is missing from his medical records too..
Bizarre that a government-run passenger train on newly built track wouldn’t have positive train control already installed. Mandatory compliance 12/2018, extended from a previous deadline, why would they wait?
On the other hand, the engineer is responsible for running the train at the appropriate speed. Which it apparently wasn’t. It’s particularly surprising that they got it wrong on the first run, as I’d assume many practice runs were held already.
Maybe two commercials. Nah!
Next thing you know YouTube will put commercials before their videos to make money for them and the publishers.
Come November, all of the Democrats who don’t despise winning will too. This is not partisan buffoonery, just a survival calculation.
I guess the Republicans have embraced Trump. Probably a huge mistake, but we’ll see. Could make for some embarrassing times.
This is where I think Trump, assuming he is unencumbered by Mueller, will shine: He will drain the swamp of a lot of it’s waste. He is already leaving a lot of positions unfilled, which is my clue.
Democrats will be quite content with this tax reform.
@ezraklein
Donald Trump
won the presidency promising a new populism, a draining of the swamp, a government for “the forgotten people.”
Today, his signature legislation passed the House:
tax cuts for corporations,
for the rich,
for his friends,
for himself.
There is absolutely nothing worth listening to in today’s music. And rock died by the early to mid 90s.
Thirty years ago, sad as I am to say it, I knew a lot of federal government bureaucrats. They told me that they had nothing to do all day. This was pre-internet, of course. I asked them what they did with their day. They told me they would bring their checkbook to work, balance it, pay utility bills, mortgages, and car payments.
@kurteichenwald
Well, at least the rich can now have another few bottles of champagne while they plan which new cars and chateaus to buy.
Hopefully, all the sick kids who will lose health care in two weeks from refusal to renew CHIP can feel happy that rich ppl are having a good Christmas.
^^^hunched over your desk and writing something, anything, was a nice career track.
@kurteichenwald
Most Americans oppose tax bill. No economic theory backs huge tax cuts in a strong economy w/ high debt. It will explode the deficit.
Citizens United case gave billionaires power to make or break politicians. The donor class wants tax cuts. They’ll get it.
That’s America today.
@conradhackett
Income gains going to top 1% in
1954-7: 5%
1975-9: 25%
2009-12: 95%
Bernie on C-SPAN during the 10 hour debate right now. He is a hoot, I’ll give him that.
If you are not watching C-SPAN right now you are passing up a perfect and tremendous opportunity to really understand the passion and premise of your vaunted Democrat party legislators.
5:30 imbecile.
Yes, I get paid to watch YouTube videos all day while spamming this board….jealous? I’m also a fat fu!k that stuffs my face while I’m not watching YouTube and spamming this board.
I barely use YouTube, I’m just protesting how they are ruining the internet, not that it hasn’t been ruined already. Wild West days are gone, profit has ruined it all. At least I’ll be able to tell my grand kids about this magical place called the internet. Of course, they won’t even know what that is. I’ll tell them how it was a beautiful thing where tons of good information was free. Then I’ll explain to them how it was overtaken by conspiracy theorists and extremists of every ideology, followed by a good ol greed driven corporate takeover of the whole damn thing in their quest to profitize everything a human touches making the internet into one big data mining machine for these corporations/govt. Yes, the good ol days where the internet had useful information and everything was free…
Blue Ribbon Teacher says:
December 19, 2017 at 5:00 pm
Can’t wait until they just send me an itemized bill for every YouTube video I watch. Learned how to fix your own widget? That’ll be $29.99.
Oh, in addition to spamming the board, you watch youtube videos all day as well. Where’s your boss?
Nooooooooo!
MTV on Monday announced that it is reviving the show with a new take, Jersey Shore Family Vacation.
http://www.northjersey.com/story/entertainment/tv/2017/12/18/dj-pauly-d-jersey-shore-anyone-better-than-chris-christie/963515001/
Oh God not again with the jersey shore!!
Oh not again!! Article does not indicate if it’s a one shot thing or a series again.
Never saw an episode of the last one. Then again, I pretty much only watch sports on TV.