C19 Open Discussion Week 5

From HousingWire:

It may be harder to get a mortgage after coronavirus crisis ends

From an economic standpoint, the main question surrounding the spread of the coronavirus is just how long the country will be shut down and just how much damage that shutdown will cause to the economy.

One thing that is clear, however, is that the mortgage lending landscape is vastly different in early April than it was in early March. Certain segments of the business – namely government, non-QM, and jumbo loans – have dried up substantially as lenders pull back from loans that are seen as riskier than GSE loans.

And according to Federal Housing Finance Agency Director Mark Calabria, some of those changes may be sticking around for a while.

“Anybody’s housing price forecast right now should be taken with a grain of salt. And that’s no slight on forecasters,” Calabria told HousingWire this week.

“To me, I don’t see that as a bug. I see it as a feature,” Calabria continued. “We’re really at a point where nobody, there’s a wide range of possible outcomes for the housing market over the next six months. Given that uncertainty, I certainly think it’s appropriate for people to re-examine their underwriting standards.”

And that’s exactly what has already happened over the last few weeks.

The first domino that seemed to fall was non-QM lending. Late last month, many of the biggest lenders specializing in lending to borrowers outside the Qualified Mortgage lending box began pausing their activities due to uncertainty in the market.

Then, the Federal Housing Administration lending environment began to shift with many lenders raising their FHA requirements, thereby limiting the number of borrowers that were able to get an FHA mortgage.

More recently, many lenders have dialed back their jumbo lending as investor interest has dried up. Beyond that, a growing number of lenders are tightening lending standards as a record-breaking number of people are losing their jobs.

The reason for all these changes is the same; there’s far too much uncertainty in the market and lenders are uneasy about lending to borrowers whose credit profile isn’t “perfect.”

That’s much different from what the mortgage market experienced in recent years, with lending to borrowers who don’t fit tightly in the GSE credit box increasing substantially.

According to Calabria, that situation has played out numerous times before.

“This is the case every cycle, where you go a really long time and people convince themselves that, no, there is no more housing cycle and there’s no risk and we can all be highly leveraged,” Calabria said. “That happens every cycle. So, do I expect that kind of behavior to ever truly go away? Probably not.”

But Calabria said that the recent tightening in credit availability is a normal reaction to economic situations like this one.

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292 Responses to C19 Open Discussion Week 5

  1. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  2. deadconomy says:

    What caused 3b to take such a negative position on living in the nyc metro area? Can anyone solve this mystery? This hate must have a source.

    Other mystery. Why does he continue to live in a place that he hates with such passion?

    Rt 3 is easy money as a long term play. It’s a major vein attached to the heart of NYC.

    Roaring 20’s with a virus wiping out the world economy?

  3. deadconomy says:

    Not a large fraction, or even a majority. 100% of the economists at the widely regarded NABE (National Association of Business Economists) say the U.S. is already in a recession–a very rare consensus.

    The 45 economists who are members of the association were polled from April 3 to April 7. The NABE Outlook Survey was first released in 1965. NABE President Constance Hunter, CBE, chief economist, KPMG, said “NABE Outlook Survey panelists believe that the U.S. economy is already in recession and will remain in a contractionary state for the first half of 2020, as the COVID-19 pandemic severely restricts economic activity. The consensus is real GDP declined at an annualized rate of 2.4% in the first quarter of 2020, and will shrink at an annualized rate of 26.5% in the second quarter”

    The group was more optimistic than many other financial experts as it looked at the second half of the year. As the spread of the pandemic eases, they expect GDP growth to be 2% in the third quarter of 2020, 5.8% in the fourth, and 6% in the first quarter of 2021. The group pointed out that there was little agreement among the group on the exact figure in the forecast.

  4. GuadalupeMoria says:

    Hello to all
    In this baffling forthwith, I proclivity you all
    Appreciate your family and friends

  5. 3b says:

    Michael/Pumps: You are in great need of therapy. There is some serious disconnect with you. You strike me as a deeply unhappy person. Please stop the madness and find the inner peace. No one on this blog wishes to engage you. Now that you are back I will ignore you. Please stop referencing me in your posts.

  6. Libturd says:

    Just skip his posts. I don’t read a single word of them. He has the credibility of Buzzfeed, so why bother? There is not a person on this site besides his numerous mon1kers, that gives even a nanosh1t about his opinion on anything. So fear not his obsession with you.

    Really everyone. Just skip past his/her posts. Your faith in humanity will dramatically improve for it.

  7. Fast Eddie says:

    Happy Easter, all.

  8. Libturd says:

    You too Gary.

  9. Fast Eddie says:

    And Happy Passover! ;)

  10. Libturd says:

    I’m eating the most amazing matzoh ball soup as I type this. I slow cooked some chicken cacciatore and saved the extra broth from it. I then used that broth and added some more chicken stock and spices to soften some chicken breasts in the instant pot for shredding into buffalo chicken stromboli. I saved all that liquid to use as my base for the MB soup. It’s outrageously good!

  11. 3b says:

    Happy Easter and Passover to all and families. Stay safe.

  12. Chicago says:

    Doesn’t sound kosher for Pesach

    Libturd says:
    April 12, 2020 at 1:15 pm
    I’m eating the most amazing matzoh ball soup as I type this. I slow cooked some chicken cacciatore and saved the extra broth from it. I then used that broth and added some more chicken stock and spices to soften some chicken breasts in the instant pot for shredding into buffalo chicken stromboli. I saved all that liquid to use as my base for the MB soup. It’s outrageously good!

  13. deadconomy AKA The Great Pumpkin@Wayne says:

    JP Morgan will force people to pay 20% down on any new house payment.. What is gonna happen to all the 5% people who were planning to buy along route 3.. Also the “American Dream Mall” was supposed to drive up prices along route 3 as well..

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/11/jpmorgan-chase-to-raise-mortgage-borrowing-standards-as-economic-outlook-darkens.html

  14. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    I wonder if American Dream is still planning on charging for parking.

  15. Walking says:

    Maybe American dream should become a1970s times square. where disco rules and the coke is always comped. All are welcome to the American wet dream

  16. Yo! says:

    In American Dream bond docs, parking expert forecasts $41 million of parking revenue in 2020 and $43 million next year. Seems optimistic to me.

  17. Juice Box says:

    Should have used Xanadu (American dream mall, I like the Georgina name ) imagine one last roller-coaster ride or ski run or drowning experience before you kick the bucket.

    Ole bait and switch.

    “Secaucus Mayor Mike Gonnelli, who had previously assured residents that no COVID-19 patients would be transferred to the Meadowlands Expo Center facility, could not hide his frustration in an open letter to residents Friday.

    “We were assured by Gov. Murphy … that the facility at the (Expo) Center would not treat COVID patients,” he said. “Despite these continued assurances, I have now been advised the facility will treat COVID patients whose condition has improved to the point where they do not need a high level of medical care.”

    https://www.nj.com/hudson/2020/04/secaucus-mayor-upset-that-field-hospital-at-expo-center-will-now-house-covid-19-patients.html

  18. Grim says:

    Got cooties now, they are f’ed.

    Sad that your highest visitor day so far is clouded by the fact that they are patients.

  19. deadconomy AKA The Great Pumpkin@Wayne says:

    When American Dream goes belly up in April 2021. it will take down the Mall of america with it. The taxes in east Rutherford will go up by 20%

    Buy 1, get 1 free

    https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/business/retail/4609810-Owner-puts-Mall-of-America-up-as-collateral-for-massive-New-Jersey-project

    https://www.nj.com/news/2019/10/more-than-1b-in-nj-taxpayer-money-has-been-committed-to-american-dream.html

  20. Juice Box says:

    Apparently 25% of the Canadian workforce has filed for unemployment.

  21. Juice Box says:

    I am going to do it sorry folks.

    deadconomy – Fed is buying all paper even the kind you use to wipe tears or rear with, so your point is useless as usual.

  22. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    Nice to have gold and silver when the fed is about to flush the entire currency down the toilet. Same goes for every other central bank.

  23. njtownhomer says:

    UAL (and others) probably got a note for the Grand ReOpening in June. They adjusted their teaser sub-$50 one way fares from EWR to major destinations. They tripled the fares expecting a possible re-opening in May/Jun timeframes.

    Looks like Fed will buy equities this week to stop the worsening numbers. I am betting by Friday morning we hear about it.

  24. D-FENS says:

    New Data Shows U.S. Companies Are Definitely Leaving China

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2020/04/07/new-data-shows-us-companies-are-definitely-leaving-china/

    “Three decades ago, U.S. producers began manufacturing and sourcing in China for one reason: costs. The trade war brought a second dimension more fully into the equation―risk―as tariffs and the threat of disrupted China imports prompted companies to weigh surety of supply more fully alongside costs. COVID-19 brings a third dimension more fully into the mix­, and arguably to the fore: resilience―the ability to foresee and adapt to unforeseen systemic shocks,” says Patrick Van den Bossche, Kearney partner and co-author of the 19-page report.

    The main beneficiaries of this are the smaller southeast Asian nations, led by Vietnam. And thanks to the passing of the U.S. Mexico Canada Agreement, Mexico, for all its problems with drug cartels, has become a favorite spot for sourcing.

  25. D-FENS says:

    Seems legit…no?

    Beijing tightens grip over coronavirus research, amid US-China row on virus origin

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/12/asia/china-coronavirus-research-restrictions-intl-hnk/

    Hong Kong (CNN)China has imposed restrictions on the publication of academic research on the origins of the novel coronavirus, according to a central government directive and online notices published by two Chinese universities, that have since been removed from the web.

    Under the new policy, all academic papers on Covid-19 will be subject to extra vetting before being submitted for publication. Studies on the origin of the virus will receive extra scrutiny and must be approved by central government officials, according to the now-deleted posts.
    A medical expert in Hong Kong who collaborated with mainland researchers to publish a clinical analysis of Covid-19 cases in an international medical journal said his work did not undergo such vetting in February.
    The increased scrutiny appears to be the latest effort by the Chinese government to control the narrative on the origins of the coronavirus pandemic, which has claimed more than 100,000 lives and sickened 1.7 million people worldwide since it first broke out in the Chinese city of Wuhan in December.
    Since late January, Chinese researchers have published a series of Covid-19 studies in influential international medical journals. Some findings about early coronavirus cases — such as when human-to-human transition first appeared — have raised questions over the official government account of the outbreak and sparked controversy on Chinese social media.
    And now, Chinese authorities appear to be tightening their grip on the publication of Covid-19 research.
    A Chinese researcher who spoke on condition of anonymity due to fear of retaliation said the move was a worrying development that would likely obstruct important scientific research.
    “I think it is a coordinated effort from (the) Chinese government to control (the) narrative, and paint it as if the outbreak did not originate in China,” the researcher told CNN. “And I don’t think they will really tolerate any objective study to investigate the origination of this disease.”
    CNN has reached out to China’s Foreign Ministry for comment.

  26. Juice Box says:

    Bastards are still hoarding toilet paper.

  27. Hold my beer says:

    NTD news, which is run by Falun Gong, calls corona CCP virus – Chinese communist party due to China’s coverup and mishandling of it.

  28. Hold my beer says:

    Panera’s is now selling groceries for delivery or pickup. I think they are only selling stuff they would use in their restaurants like fresh breads, milk, eggs, some meats and produce. Some other chains are selling a wider selection of things including toilet paper.

  29. SuperFED says:

    Our call of the day, from a team of Goldman Sachs strategists led by David Kostin, says the worst of the market rout is behind us. A “previous near-term downside of 2000 [for the S&P 500] is no longer likely. Our year-end S&P 500 target remains 3000 (+8%),” says the team in a note to clients on Monday.
    Why? “The combination of unprecedented policy support and a flattening viral curve have dramatically reduced downside risk for the U.S. economy and financial markets and lifted the S&P 500 out of bear market territory,” said Kostin, whose gloomy stock prediction from last month came the day before a complete market meltdown.
    “If the U.S. does not experience a second surge in infections after the economy reopens, the ‘do whatever it takes’ stance of policy makers means the equity market is unlikely to make new lows,” said Kostin.

  30. Juice Box says:

    Power Outage tracker for New Jersey, not too bad yet.

    http://projects.nj.com/data/outagetracker/

  31. Fabius Maximus says:

    So will Donnie put a pillow over the face of the USPS to stop vote by mail?

    https://www.vox.com/2020/4/12/21218151/usps-bailout-privatization-amazon-trump

  32. Fabius Maximus says:

    Add it the China supply chain disruptions and it wont be just TP in short supply.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/12/business/meat-plant-closures-smithfield/index.html

  33. FakeNewsHoaxes says:

    We throw away 50% of our food and obesity is off the charts. It’s all meat and processed foods that are being hoarded. $2 a pound factory farmed spare ribs.

    I’m not sure a little food inflation would be a bad thing. I just signed up for CSA. Local and fresh is the way to go.

  34. Libturd, Booyah says:
  35. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    In the rest of the world, the poor have developed extensive cuisines around the non premium cuts of meat, beans, grains, local fruits/vegetables/spices and rice. They still manage to eat healthy. The US is an enigma because it’s cuisine was developed alongside the industrial revolution. Our saving grace in the Northeast is that we’ve imported every ethnic cuisine possible. I have a friend from Alabama. He lost 60 pounds when he moved to New Jersey just based on the different diet here. He said out there, the idea of eating fresh vegetables, fish, and lean meats is unfounded. It’s all fat upon fat upon cheese upon carbs.

    When I went out to Virginia over the summer last year, I went to some great restaurants. Had some amazing pork chops and grits. If I ate the stuff they were serving everyday, I’d be 250 pounds.

  36. FakeNewsHoaxes says:

    In my experience, the poor and uneducated in the US choose to eat quantity over quality which leads to obesity. There are a lot of poor and uneducated in the south.

  37. Libturd says:

    I wonder how everyone would have reacted if the virus went after the healthy people and those with higher BMIs survived due to their stored fat?

  38. FakeNewsHoaxes says:

    Maybe junk food and ice cream sales would have shot up 30-50%?

    Oh that did happen and during a pandemic that strikes the obese disproportionately.

    But we’ve closed parks hold and all recreational options.

  39. Hold my beer says:

    We’re getting our first order from imperfect foods this afternoon. Some of the prices were very good.

    Libturd would be proud of me. I found a 25% off code for the entire order for first 3 orders and they have free delivery right now on orders over $60.

    I thought it might be a good way to expand what we eat. I usually buy the same 8-10 fruits and veggies every week, even when I go to an asian grocer I get the same 5-6 asian veggies almost every time.

  40. HEHEHE says:

    Mall of America – located in a region with limited entertainment options where it’s typical for snow to be continuously on the ground each year from October through March and temperature to be at or below freezing during same.

    American Dream – located in a region with unlimited entertainment options where it’s possible but not likely for snow to be on the ground each year from December through February and temperature to be at or below freezing during same.

    I wonder why one prints money and one doesn’t?

  41. Fast Eddie says:

    Is there anyone delivering groceries here in North Jersey? A link please.

  42. Libturd says:

    Harvest to Home kicked ass for us. Unfortunately, they are now falling behind like everyone else, unless you are willing to do curb pickup in Lincoln Park, where you order online and they will put it in the car for you. Super high quality produce, most priced around Whole Paycheck prices.

    HMB, nice job with the code. I always check Upromise, Rakutan and Retailmenot before I purchase anything online or instore. Saves me thousands every year.

  43. Bystander says:

    Getting caught up on main articles. When I read about non qm mortgage I always think about former boss who led dd company back in 2000 to 2006. While a reasonably intelligent guy, he was arrogant Long island snob always braged about being lead of desk at Morgan. It was his only other career stop. He completely lost that he was no longer on street. We were beneath him bc he fought in the street pit. Since 2007 I count 10 jobs, all chasing non qm market, trying to get back to president of some nothing startup dd firm. Could not pick up lunch bucket and get back to work. Always chasing the title. His recent job lasted only 18 months before it was sold and he, wink, resigned in Dec. Now that market is gone. He is probably nearing 60 now. Maybe he should become a lowly underwriter or the people he used to look down upon and openly mock during meetings.

  44. NJCoast says:

    Power out here at the shore.
    In other news my daughter’s brewery did a pilot sale with delivering their canned beer and sold out in 45 minutes at $105 a case tax and shipping included. They only sell in NY because they self distribute.

  45. Libturd says:

    HEHEHE – My company has a large presence (was headquartered in STP/Minn) near the MOA. Were you aware that they have more visitors than Disney World? A lot more! It has little to do with weather. It has more to do with the stupidity of Americans. Personally, I wouldn’t bet on Xanadon’t failing in the long run. The last time I went to Jersey Gardens (about 3 years ago) I couldn’t find a place to park. Ever go to IKEA in Elizabeth? No one even lives anywhere remotely near it, yet millions shop there. If there is one thing NJ doesn’t lack, it’s stupid people.

  46. Hold my beer says:

    Fast Eddie

    try these. Might not be delivering for a few weeks though for new accounts

    https://www.imperfectfoods.com

    https://www.misfitsmarket.com

  47. Libturd says:

    Misfits sucks balls in North Jersey. We tried them three times. The produce was mostly rotten or too small to use. They admitted to us that they have problems in North Jersey with quality and never charged us. Imperfect is supposed to be better, but there is only so much damaged produce to make this business model make sense. I truly think it’s mostly a marketing gimmick now.

  48. Hold my beer says:

    Fast Eddie

    You can also check grocery stores and walmart for pickup times if you can’t get a delivery. They shop for you, and at a designated time you show up and they put it in your trunk for you.

    Instacart is also shopping at Aldi if you have any of those in your area.

    Some chain restaurants like panera’s and potbelly are selling groceries like milk, bread, and produce for delivery or pickup. Here’s a link to the story
    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/us-restaurants-turn-grocery-sales-141251533.html

  49. Fast Eddie says:

    Thanks guys!

  50. Hold my beer says:

    Libturd

    People seem to like imperfect better. Curious how the quality will be. We can still get same and next day delivery in this area from our grocery stores, but I signed up with imperfect before this area gets swamped and has no or 5 day delivery times for instacart.

  51. grim says:

    In other news my daughter’s brewery did a pilot sale with delivering their canned beer and sold out in 45 minutes at $105 a case tax and shipping included. They only sell in NY because they self distribute.

    We are still fighting the governor to re-allow spirits delivery.

    For us, alcohol sales are up 105% year over year.

  52. Yo! says:

    Libturd,

    I’ve seen the financial documents for Mall of America (public info by subscription) and revenue peaked in 2017 and now is declining. This is first time since it opened that this has occurred. During the 2008-2009 financial crisis, revenue kept growing, but no longer. Plus, the property has a $1.4 billion mortgage so that means negative equity.

    Jersey Gardens has also hit a wall. Simon cancelled the 450,000 square foot expansion a year ago. This property depends on foreign tourists making day trips from Manhattan mostly using NJ Transit’s 111 bus. After years of huge ridership increases on the 111, ridership began to decline 18 months ago and I’m sure is is total free fall today.

    Simply put, mall real estate is f’ed.

  53. Hold my beer says:

    Fast Eddie

    You can also check asian grocers like hmart and 99ranch. I think they deliver to some zipcodes. 99ranch also delivers non perishables like sauces, noodles, and ramen fedex. I got a non perishable order from them in 5 days. Free shipping on $49 and up orders and seemed to be same prices as in their store.

  54. FakeNewsHoaxes says:

    Do you see people stockpiling booze or drinking it?

  55. Libturd says:

    I would kill my mother for HMart delivery. I already make some mean Korean, Thai, Japanese and Chinese food. I am slowly running out of the specialty items necessary to continue. Thai curries are really easy and tasty and work well with frozen veggies, but really require fresh ginger and basil. Can’t wait for this friggin’ thing to be over.

  56. grim says:

    Drinking it

  57. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    Went to the mall of America in 1997 when visiting a family member undergoing surgery at the Mayo clinic. Though Garden State Plaza was better.

  58. FakeNewsHoaxes says:

    That’s good. Repeat customers.

    I read that restaurants were 20% of our meals before this so it shouldn’t be a surprise that we see a big spike in demand at the grocery store even without hoarding.

    There must be a similar shift from bars, country clubs etc to home drinking but I’m not sure how much was previously done in public.

    And PA closing down the state stores probably created a big demand surge as well.

  59. 30 year realtor says:

    Booze is readily available. My understanding is that marijuana hoarding is a thing. Prices are rising due to limited availability. Even NJ medical is challenging to obtain. It is only sold by appointment due to covid-19 restrictions and all appointments are taken.

  60. Not Yo says:

    Everyone is just going to order from home, replacing malls with warehouses? Sounds like fun. All because most people are too lazy to leave their house and go to a store? God forbid people actually live a little…

    I really don’t know if life is getting better. Tech might actually be making it worse.

  61. Walking says:

    Not Yo the future will all be virtual. You will go to a virtual meeting in a virtual conf room. Don’t have a suit for your meeting? No worries just use your Zoom dollars to pickup a virtual suit to impress the team, maybe splurge on a nice virtual power watch.?

  62. Libturd says:

    Wall-E.

  63. NJCoast says:

    Grim do you self distribute? I believe NY just relaxed the mailing of alcohol I don’t know if it’s just during the pandemic or going forward.

  64. HEHEHE says:

    Cuomo 2pm presser supposed to have details re reopening the economy

  65. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    I live about 10 minutes from the PA border. The liquor store was forced to do pickup only and there were lines of cars (45 min to 1 hour wait) for like 2 weeks straight. All PA license plates.

  66. D-FENS says:

    If we can social distance at the supermarket…why can’t the ease restrictions and just ask all businesses and churches to enact social distance policies?

  67. ExEssex says:

    Ahhhhh the sun is shining the breeze is blowin’ and the weeeeeed is flowin.
    I may never leave SoCal. Happiness.

  68. ExEssex says:

    And all da fassssst food you can eat. Heaven.

  69. Libturd says:

    Tommy’s?

  70. Hold my beer says:

    Got the imperfect foods order. Overall very good. Papaya is too ripe and needs to be eaten or frozen today but everything else is very good.

  71. ExEssex says:

    3:29 yeah. You like? Burgers are serious out here. I still dig 5 guys though. Got 1 in Simi sometimes I hit that. Tommy’s are closer. Will try.

  72. homeboken says:

    D-Fens – How dare you be logical like that? Don’t you know that asking questions that run counter to “Follow the Doctor’s/Science, like they are Jesus Christ himself, will get you cancelled?”

    Remember a few weeks ago when the CDC, WHO, US Surgeon General and all the task force doctors told us that wearing a mask wouldn’t help and in fact, could make it more likely to catch the disease?

    I get it, the point was to keep people from hoarding masks that are needed for hospitals, that’s not the point. Our leaders and the media think we are all too dumb to be “in the know”. So just stuff your face with frozen pizza’s and don’t question anything…sarcasm off

  73. grim says:

    Michigan unemployment 25%

  74. BoomerRemover says:

    The grand re-opening is going to be a sh!tsho. A power standoff the likes of which we have not seen in quite some time.

  75. Libturd says:

    I anxiously look forward to the grand reopening of our society.

    Of course, I work from home full time.

  76. Powell show says:

    The stock market doesn’t flinch on 25% unemployment data.

    It’s impossible to lose in the stock market now and debts do not matter. They will do whatever it takes to get money into the economy and prop it up.

  77. Libturd, Booyah says:

    Joyce,

    I don’t disagree with much of Tepper’s take. But it requires leadership. Our third world country can’t even figure out how to produce masks, let alone the number of testing kits required. See my comments as to why we couldn’t meet ANY of Tepper’s 10 commandments.

    1. TEST the population extensively to isolate asymptomatic carriers. The countries that have the most success against Covid-19 (Germany and South Korea) are also the ones that have tested most extensively.

    Can’t do. Can’t produce enough tests.

    2. TRACE contacts and maintain quarantine for those who have tested positive. Countries such as Singapore, Hong Kong and South Korea have done what the United States used to do, which is trace contacts and isolate all infected people. This policy should have been used from the outset, but it is better late than never.

    Too late. Too many infected.

    3. ISOLATE patients who test positive. Today we are isolating entire countries, rather than testing and quarantining specific people who test positive.

    Not in the land of the free!

    4. IDENTIFY high risk groups. We have already identified the high-risk groups, but we must protect them in care homes and prevent infected people from coming into contact with them.

    Too many are poor and living off the state. Who is going to pay to isolate them?

    5. Establish hospitals and field clinics dedicated entirely to Covid for testing and triage. Hospitals should avoid mixing infected patients with others at all costs. The experience of Lombardy vs Veneto shows clearly that you can achieve lower rates of nosocomial infections and lower mortality by isolating people.

    Not when our hospitals are profit based.

    6. Offer home care, telecare and mobile clinics to maintain isolation. Germany has the best outcomes in Europe. It developed “corona” taxis where doctors could visit patients rather than bring them to hospitals and it has relied extensively on telemedicine.

    It has taken us three weeks to cut checks. Telehealth? That might happen, in another 6 months or so.

    7. Maintain strict hygienic procedures in the hospital environment to avoid nosocomial spread. The success of Hong Kong and many Italian hospitals offer proof that proper procedures to stop the virus can work when doctors are given the right tools.

    We can’t even make enough masks.

    8. Test medical workers often act swiftly in case of exposures of medical personnel. If doctors do not know they are infected, they will infect patients as they work.

    Not enough tests to even test those with symptoms. This is still the case even here in NJ where I know of 2 more people who were turned down in the past day. Told, assume you have it.

    9. Provide cutting edge protective gear to doctors. Doctors should not be forced to work without proper protection.

    Yup. Can’t figure out how to even make our own masks.

    10. Everyone is a potential vector for the disease but the young will barely be affected. Children should not be locked up when they are essentially protected from almost any symptoms of the disease. The sooner they get the virus, the sooner they can develop immunity.

    And the sooner they will spread it their families who might not survive it. I see a whole lot of orphans in our near future.

  78. njtownhomer says:

    story of Paramus testing site, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/nyregion/coronavirus-testing.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

    500 a day, total success for one of the major epicenter counties.

  79. joyce says:

    Libturd,
    I agree with everything you said with two exceptions:
    – I do think it’s never too late when it comes to implementing what [i think] is the correct approach.
    – Regarding your ‘Not in the land of the free’ comment, as much as my libertarian nature abhors it, there’s overwhelming compliance with the everyone must quarantine rules. There’s no reason to think we wouldn’t have compliance if the executive orders were more targeted. From what I read in the news, people are complying with the state checkpoints and other draconian measures. It’s been a long, long time since this country had a significant number of Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death people.

  80. Libturd, the Master Beta says:

    Happy Easter everyone. How was your first day back to work?

  81. Libturd, the Master Beta says:

    Joyce.

    None of it can be implemented with our current leadership. Not sure it would be better if the Dems were in control, but I don’t know how our response could possibly be worse (than India’s)?

  82. ExEssex says:

    10:04 I honestly wouldn’t know. That’s a fact.
    Can you imagine early fifties, hang around the house all day,
    Whew. Glad that’s normalized.

  83. Libturd says:

    Morning peeps.

  84. Grim says:

    Coronavirus done yet? Bored with this.

  85. 30 year realtor says:

    5AM shop this morning at 24 hour Shoprite in Rochelle Park. No chicken in entire store. Plenty of flour, sugar and eggs. Limited selection of beef. By the time I walked out to my car at 6:15 there was a long line to get into the store.

  86. You can’t lose says:

    “Wall Street analyst who called the 2018 rout says ‘don’t fight the Fed’ and ‘buy the dips’ is back on in this coronavirus-stricken stock market”

    “The Morgan Stanley team says that they have grown more optimistic about the outlook for equities because of the seemingly unfettered support being displayed by the Federal Reserve, which last week set up new loan programs, including offering to purchase high-yield bonds, and bolstered existing ones in an effort to provide $2.3 trillion in support for the economy essentially shut down due to COVID-19.”

    “Dow Futures Are Rising Because Earnings Were Better Than Feared. Tesla Is Jumping Again.
    A combination of positive news about the coronavirus pandemic and corporate earnings lifted futures for all three major U.S. stock indexes.”

  87. You can’t lose says:

    Fear what in the stock market? Why would anyone be afraid of the risk in the stock market anymore? You can’t lose.

    We are in horrible economic times in a middle of a crisis, and stock market just goes up and up.

    “More than 2,100 U.S. cities are anticipating major budget shortfalls this year and many are planning to slash programs and cut staff in response, according to a new survey of local officials released Tuesday, illustrating the widespread financial havoc threatened by the coronavirus pandemic.
    The bleak outlook — shared by local governments representing roughly 93 million people nationwide — led some top mayors and other leaders to call for greater federal aid to protect cities now forced to choose between balancing their cash-strapped ledgers and sustaining the public services that residents need most.
    “There’s no question that the coronavirus pandemic has had, and will have, a major impact on cities of all sizes,” said Clarence Anthony, the executive director of the National League of Cities.
    The NLC joined with the U.S. Conference of Mayors to conduct the early inquiry into the economic effects of the novel coronavirus, finding that many local governments are bracing for sharp declines in tax revenue as businesses shutter, workers lose their jobs in record numbers and tourism grinds to a halt.”

    Read information like this. What does it matter? It doesn’t. If I ever hear someone talk about debt….it doesn’t matter. If I ever hear anyone talk about risk to the economy or stock market.. it doesn’t matter.

  88. FakeNewsHoaxes says:

    Watch your shlt if you’re using your credit card over the phone. My citi card was compromised, I doubt it’s a coincidence that it happened right after I started using it over the phone. There are a few suspects.

  89. Hold my beer says:

    I’m pretending I’m on a spaceship that can get resupplied by drones within 2 days.

  90. Hold my beer says:

    I got mushroom supplements in yesterday’s resupply. Don’t get excited Essex, we’re talking turkey tail, Reishi, and Chaga, not magical.

  91. Juice Box says:

    Free Antibody test with a pint of blood coming.(if you were sick and recovered)

    https://www.valleyhealth.com/services/novel-coronavirus-covid-19/covid-19-serum-testing-donation

  92. joyce says:

    patients and those they live with who leave home for any reason face judge-mandated isolation orders and a GPS ankle monitor in some parts of the Bluegrass State.

    https://reason.com/2020/04/08/covid-19-patients-and-their-families-are-being-put-on-police-enforced-lockdown/

  93. Juice Box says:

    Humm maybe no herd immunity yet, the idea was they already had it in the last fall in California. Perhaps not.

    Seattle researcher debunks theory COVID-19 spread in Calif. in November

    “We tested 3600 samples collected in Jan 2020 for COVID-19 status and found zero positives,” Bedford tweeted. “We tested 3308 samples collected in Feb 2020 and found a first positive on Feb 21 with a total of 10 samples testing positive in Feb.”

    https://komonews.com/news/coronavirus/seattle-researcher-debunks-theory-covid-19-spread-in-calif-in-november

  94. Trick says:

    My CC was compromise last week, 3 uber eats charges on the same day. I do not have an account or ever used the service. Last time it was hacked it was for uber rides. Think there is a pattern?

  95. Fabius Maximus says:

    Watch this guy get the hook.

    https://twitter.com/KevinCate/status/1249802856003260416

    This all comes down to “we’ll need to social distance until there is a vaccine.”

  96. HEHEHE says:

    So you temporarily destroy 25% of the jobs in the country and see a continuously growing uptick in domestic violence, child abuse, alcohol & substance abuse, depression, anxiety and suicide VS. elderly, sickly and the occasional healthy individual dying from a disease.

    At a certain point the cure isn’t any better than the disease. Especially when you consider the sizable percentage of those who died from this weren’t long for this planet and would likely have died from any myriad of other conditions.

    The sole focus going forward should be getting the equipment made to protect health care workers.

    Once that’s in place reopen with common sense stuff in place like having to wear mask and gloves when visiting a nursing home etc.

  97. FakeNewsHoaxes says:

    I think there is a big uptick in people using credit cards, and many in insecure ways. I also think there are a lot more desperate people. If someone has a cache of stolen CC data and they are hungry it’s an easy choice.

  98. Fat Eddie (a.k.a Fast Eddie) says:

    Fabisu,

    You go down in your bunker and isolate and we’ll let you know when it’s safe to come out.

  99. Juice Box says:

    HEHEHE – “temporarily destroy 25% of the jobs”

    As if allot of those jobs will be back…… news flash they won’t. The Fortune 500 are using it to weed out the lollygaggers, and small business well they are smashed and bankrupt.

    Round two has begun. Nobody is safe and the psychic trauma has only just begun.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-second-round-of-coronavirus-layoffs-has-begun-no-one-is-safe-11586872387

  100. HEHEHE says:

    Juice,

    Oh I 100% agree many of those jobs aren’t coming back.

    I was just talking the near term economic nuke that was dropped.

    I have asthma and certainly don’t want to get this thing; I had a co-worker on my floor pass away last week from complications from it along with the parents of a couple other co-workers.

    Co-worker was a gentle giant type of guy. Mid 50’s. Not obese but definitely overweight and given his frame I can only imagine heart issues were involved.

    My point is that even knowing the above I believe it’s better to accept the risk and get people back to work once healthcare workers have what they need.

    People like myself, or people worried, can wear a mask or scarf on the train etc.

  101. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    Population density and being packed like sardines. More people on mass transit. California’s more spread out, less density…and a different temperature. Why would you expect them to be the same? In just about every factor, the NYC crisis should be the worst in the nation.

    Last time I was in NYC, you couldn’t stop people from shoulder checking you on their way by. I had to stiff arm some idiot because he was going to walk straight through my five year old daughter.

    The idea that any place has achieved heard immunity is completely far fetched.

  102. Chicago says:

    Holy fcuking. They ripped me off

    You can’t lose says:
    April 14, 2020 at 8:25 am
    “Wall Street analyst who called the 2018 rout says ‘don’t fight the Fed’ and

  103. joyce says:

    fight the temptation to respond to the troll, even though he changed his name again

  104. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    fight the temptation to respond to the troll, even though he changed his name again

    Fight the virus with social isolation

  105. HEHEHE says:

    “In just about every factor, the NYC crisis should be the worst in the nation.”

    This is what gave me the biggest chuckle with that windbag DeBlasio making the national TV rounds telling people all across the nation they are going to be facing the same problem of the same magnitude.

    If you didn’t know that guy was a moron before Covid-19 you sure do now.

    NYC is hands down the most concentrated population in the country and it’s not even close. It is the only vertical city; floors upon floors of people living on top of each other for a 15-20 mile radius. It has the most widely used and crowded public transportation system in the country.

    It’s a contagious virus’ wet dream!

  106. Fabius Maximus says:

    I’ll stay in Gary, you get out there and report the greatness back to us.

  107. Juice Box says:

    Deblasio got kneecapped by Cuomo over the NYC schools closing for the remainder of the school year. I am so glad they undid the three term limit Bloomberg finagled, he will be done for good.

  108. Fast Eddie says:

    Fabisu,

    The numbers are starting to ease, finally. Did you notice how quickly this administration turned the Javitz Center into a 3,000 bed hospital and docked that massive 1,100 medical ship in New York? I was reading and watching videos of medical military personnel waiting and ready. Thank goodness we didn’t need it nor the supply of ventilators that Cuomo gladly sent back. It was magnificent how this administration made it happen practically in a matter of hours… despite Pelosi and De Blasio saying there was nothing to worry about, go about your business. We’re the envy of the world! A month from now, we’ll be talking about how the economy is bouncing back faster than expected. But really, this is what happens in a free enterprise system as opposed to lethargic and failing fabianism. Mission accomplished!!

  109. IheartJoyce says:

    “Ironically, it may be that we look back and say that Donald Trump was the man who brought social democracy to America. Maybe we’ll end up with universal health. Maybe we’ll end up with universal basic income. We might end up with a much bigger government.

    I’m fine with that. What I’m not fine with is that we still have someone in power who doesn’t think that we have to pay for it by taxing folks.

    Now I’m depressed.”

    “It’s worth going there. It’s early days, but it’s worth thinking about what kind of political or socio-economic realignment might result from this.

    Something that hasn’t gotten that much attention is that the people who are really bearing the economic brunt of this, people in their 20s and 30s, that generation has been bearing the brunt of a lot of stuff. They’re bearing the brunt of the student debt crisis. They’ve been bearing the brunt of tepid wage growth.

    They’re also the ones who are benefiting the least. Despite the fact that everyone can get sick…the fact is that mortality is concentrated among people who are older. I wonder, if at some point, there’s going to be a good deal more pushback in which these young people say, “You can’t put our lives on hold and give us nothing or only give us minor support for the benefit of the social good which is mostly not us.”

    You might end up with some rewriting of the social contract. This young generation that’s bearing the brunt of this social isolation and economic fallout might say, “We want compensation for that.”

    They’re sacrificing a lot.”

    Can We Print Infinite Money to Pause the Economy During the Coronavirus Pandemic?

    https://apple.news/AVmWIOj4OQoGKGDPp95TH2g

  110. ExEssex says:

    2:35 whew! That’s a relief. Everyone can sleep soundly toniiiiight.

  111. ExEssex says:

    12:08 California seems built for self-isolation.
    Endless sprawl, car-centric travel, houses built in walled-off neighborhoods.
    I cannot imagine the horror of isolating in Manhattan unless you have a huuuuge apartment and who the heck can afford that.

  112. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    Lets rewind a little bit. Remember when DeBlasio thought he was making a run at president of the US?

  113. HEHEHE says:

    “student debt crisis” – always gives me a chuckle.

    Did you insist on going out of state?

    Did you choose a private over state school?

    Did you major in something with ridiculously low starting salaries?

    You saw the tuition and room and board amounts?

    You signed the loan right?

    Did you shop around for a cheaper school with a comparable program?

    And lets not forget why tuition has skyrocketed the past 30-40 years – it’s debt financed and that debt is backed in part by the government?

    You think a private lender would be issuing this debt given the odds of being paid back. They wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole.

    You think these universities would be spending money like drunken sailors if they didn’t know they had a new batch of “golden eggs”/students coming in every year they can gouge the hell out of with government help?

  114. Phoenix says:

    HEHEHE,

    And lets not forget why home prices have skyrocketed the past 30-40 years – it’s debt financed and that debt is backed in part by the government?

  115. Phoenix says:

    Guess it depends if you are a glass half empty or glass half full kinda person.

    Fast Eddie says:
    April 14, 2020 at 2:35 pm
    Fabisu,

    The numbers are starting to ease, finally.

    N.J. coronavirus peak now 11 days away with 16K hospitalizations expected, health officials say

    https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/04/nj-coronavirus-peak-now-11-days-away-with-16k-hospitalizations-expected-health-officials-say.html

  116. HEHEHE says:

    Phoenix,

    BINGO!

  117. chicagofinance says:

    Possibly the biggest snake oil salespeople in the country….. ruined many lives….

    HEHEHE says:
    April 14, 2020 at 5:08 pm
    “student debt crisis” – always gives me a chuckle.

    Did you insist on going out of state?

    Did you choose a private over state school?

    Did you major in something with ridiculously low starting salaries?

    You saw the tuition and room and board amounts?

    You signed the loan right?

    Did you shop around for a cheaper school with a comparable program?

    And lets not forget why tuition has skyrocketed the past 30-40 years – it’s debt financed and that debt is backed in part by the government?

    You think a private lender would be issuing this debt given the odds of being paid back. They wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole.

    You think these universities would be spending money like drunken sailors if they didn’t know they had a new batch of “golden eggs”/students coming in every year they can gouge the hell out of with government help?

  118. Fiasco says:

    https://wwwDOTwashingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/

    Replace DOT w .

    We had a heads up on this a couple of years ago. We could not afford to keep officials in China to monitor the situation. But we can afford the mess we have now. Human suffering, death, billions to corporations who used cash for buyouts, same for SUB IG bond bailouts and even hedge funds trying to feed at the trough under the auspices of “small” business.

    This thing could have been vastly mitigated and it wasn’t. Straight up 100% failure and the fallout will be felt for decades. PS – if $21T in debt was a problem, it ain’t like things are looking up. PPE still in short supply.

    You really want to drain the swamp? Get rid of pacs, citizens united and tell potus to line up 4 D9 and literally level K street. Anything less is nothing, I repeat nothing but hot air.

  119. homeboken says:

    It was only a few days ago that I posted on this blog how I wish I could gather some of my like-minded neighbors and peacefully assemble to protest being quarantined and not being allowed to work. I was half joking when I said that the 1st ammendment no longer applies.

    Look at what happened today, in Raleigh, NC. Citizens exercised their inalienable birth right to question their elected leaders.
    Their peaceful protest was shut down and one woman was arrested.
    The Raleigh PD informed the world why they shut it down in this tweet:

    “Protesting is a non-essential activity” and therefore, it can be stopped because the governor decided that the 1st amendment is no longer essential.

    Are you afraid of this infringement of your liberty? You fcking should be.

  120. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    Most of my neighbors aren’t like minded. They are all die hard greeny environmentalists, yet I’m the only one with solar on my home. Yesterday, their recycling was blowing all over the friggin place. It’s always me out there picking it all up. Meanwhile, I kept mine in the garage and waited to see the truck in the neighborhood.

  121. joyce says:

    To ensure your freedom, some freedoms must be surrendered.

    homeboken says:
    April 14, 2020 at 8:17 pm

  122. joyce says:

    NC
    5,108 reported cases
    112 people have died
    500,000 unemployment claims last week

  123. joyce says:

    and the essential activity of golf is still open

  124. Fabius Maximus says:

    Joyce,

    Of course golf in NC is still open. Can you guess why? The big question is how much PPP dollars get funneled to it.

  125. Fabius Maximus says:

    Gary,

    You want numbers? knock your self out. Just like the unemployment numbers, they just got revised upwards. Greatness at work.

    10000 deaths, 5000 in ICU
    https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus-ny/

    When that ICU number goes down, how many get shifted to the other column?

  126. Fabius Maximus says:

    Not quite sure which is worse, checks delayed why they stick Donnies signiture on it, or allowing the banks to seize the check to pay loans and fees.

    True Greatness!

    https://www.businessinsider.com/banks-can-use-stimulus-check-pay-private-loans-fees-report-2020-4

  127. joyce says:

    Yes yes yes, I’m sure Trump and his properties is the precise reason why these are all still open.
    https://www.golfdigest.com/story/heres-a-state-by-state-breakdown-of-where-golfs-allowed-and-where-it-isnt

    Fabius Maximus says:
    April 14, 2020 at 11:19 pm

  128. joyce says:

    I forgot you favor a dictator form of government.

    Lawmakers exempted the checks from being used to pay off debts to federal or state agencies, the report said, but did not exempt private debt collection.

    Fabius Maximus says:
    April 14, 2020 at 11:25 pm

  129. joyce says:

    Only you could look at the overall statistics and think they’re getting worse. And no, Trump gets zero credit for it.

    It’s pretty sick that you’re taking great enjoyment from current events.

    Fabius Maximus says:
    April 14, 2020 at 11:22 pm
    Gary,

    You want numbers? knock your self out. Just like the unemployment numbers, they just got revised upwards. Greatness at work.

  130. grim says:

    FYI – Our PPP application was approved yesterday, we expect to see funding today.

  131. In social!sm we trust says:

    You know what would be great? If people stood by what they believe in. Anyone that is against socia!ism, should not take any type of financial assistance from the govt. Too bad we are ALL a bunch of socia!ists when it comes down to it. We are nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites. We bash welfare recipients for doing the same exact thing that everyone is doing now. Taking checks and bailouts from Uncle Sam. We are social!sts, but just refuse to admit it. No different than Bernie.

  132. Juice Box says:

    Grim – so you use 75% of the money for payroll don’t lay off anyone you get loan forgiveness? Max is 2.5 times average monthly payroll seems about right to get out of this mess.

    I hope every small business out there takes advantage of this, it’s rare in life Main St gets any helping hand from the government, especially with our Governor now saying July.

  133. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    Ignore…

  134. Juice Box says:

    Just found out some friends up in Bergen county had their own little Covid19 cluster, ages late 40s to 50. They all have recovered, mild symptoms of fever, terrible cough, fatigue, loss of taste. Their children mostly teens had no symptoms. They now have all signed up to donate blood for the convalescent plasma therapy trials now starting up. Still waiting to hear back about when and where to donate blood.

  135. Fabius Maximus says:

    Greetings All Blood Donors:
    Urgent Blood Drive Due to Coronavirus
    You Must Register to Donate

    A Blood Drive will be held on Thursday April 23, 2020 between the hours of 12 pm to 6 pm.
    Sponsor Pascack Valley High School
    200 Piermont Ave
    Hillsdale, NJ 07642

    To Register:
    https://donor.cbsblood.org/donor/schedules/drive_schedule/52451
    Hospitals are in urgent need and are requesting units of blood daily!!!
    With school districts closed and many companies implementing work from home we need you!!!
    Vitalant, supplying local hospitals in New Jersey and New York is asking everyone do their part, roll up their sleeves and donate blood!
    These hospitals have patients that continually require blood and/or blood products for the following: Open Heart Surgery, Trauma, Leukemia, Burn Victims, Automobile Accident victims and more!
    All donors will receive free health screenings including:
    Iron, Cholesterol, Blood Pressure, Temperature, Hemoglobin, Pulse Rate & Blood Type!!!
    **Free juice, cookies, crackers and/or pretzels will be provided to all blood donors

    PLEASE HELP DURING THIS URGENT TIME OF NEED!!

  136. Fabius Maximus says:

    Joyce,

    The only real enjoyment I have here is reminding Gary of the greatness of his Orange Idol.

    Where i am on the numbers is that I look at them and dont take any enjoyment. This diagram really sums up my feelings.
    https://twitter.com/skepteis/status/1250346673357783041

  137. homeboken says:

    For anyone interested, Gov. Murphy will be on Tucker Carlson tonight, 8:00pm on Fox News Channel (FIOS 618).

    I know some of you don’t wish to give any ratings to Fox, I get that. But I am interested in hearing this interview.

  138. joyce says:

    Cartoonish does sum you up pretty well.

    Fabius Maximus says:
    April 15, 2020 at 9:45 am
    Joyce,

    The only real enjoyment I have here is reminding Gary of the greatness of his Orange Idol.

    Where i am on the numbers is that I look at them and dont take any enjoyment. This diagram really sums up my feelings.
    https://twitter.com/skepteis/status/1250346673357783041

  139. D-FENS says:

    This was a few days ago. The number is likely higher today. Police response times might suffer…

    645 N.J. cops have tested positive for coronavirus, another 2,300 in self-isolation

    https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/04/645-nj-cops-have-tested-positive-for-coronavirus-another-2300-in-self-isolation.html

  140. homeboken says:

    1. Cops getting sick, police response times delayed.
    2. Release lots and lots of prisoners so they don’t get sick.
    3. Stop (slow) processing firearm purchase applications.

    This should work out totally fine.

  141. In social!sm we trust says:

    Principles. Are you going to take your social!st check? Of course you are. Don’t ever complain about welfare in any form from the govt again. Also, don’t bash someone like Bernie for embracing social!sm when you do the same exact thing.

    I’m simply pointing out how hypocritical politics really is.

    Blue Ribbon Teacher says:
    April 15, 2020 at 9:23 am
    Ignore…

  142. ExEssex says:

    Now why you loer en kyk gelyk?
    Is ek miskien van goud gemake?
    You want to fight, you come tonight
    Ek moer jou sleg! So jy hardloop weg

  143. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    Ignore….

  144. In social!sm we trust says:

    “Pundits are speculating on what impact the novel coronavirus pandemic will have on the presidential race, but we know the answer. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), or at least his philosophy, has won.

    Our march toward social!sm began incrementally decades ago. But our response to the coronavirus will lead to its permanent implementation after elected officials of both parties shuttered businesses, ordered citizens not to go to work and made clear that there would be more draconian measures to come. The delicate balance between freedom and risk was less than an afterthought as our economy was gutted in a matter of days.”

  145. Libturd, exhibiting downward pressure, like with a plunger says:

    You guys get checks?

  146. Libturd says:

    I’d cash them as quickly as possible. It’s got Trump’s name on them.

  147. D-FENS says:

    Printing (digitally in this case) money usually results in inflation. With lowered demand and rock bottom energy prices…is it a wash in this case? Is there just more money in circulation?

  148. joyce says:

    Quite frustrating when we were sold on the purpose of all of this was to flatten the curve. Now, and the last several days, the goal is to flatten, drive down and THEN we can “talk” about opening back up.

  149. Libturd says:

    Well it has certainly turned more partisan, hasn’t it?

  150. Juice Box says:

    No Trump check or Direct Deposit but got something much much better. The 48 roll of TP ordered weeks ago showed up finally! I don’t have to leave my house to go on a scavenger hunt across a dozen infected zones wearing PPE and carrying my Peacekeeper!

  151. chicagofinance says:

    Answered this question …. to the extent this information helps anyone relative to phase outs….
    xxxxxxxxx
    So, what if I earn more than these amounts? Do I still qualify for a stimulus check?
    It depends how much money you earn. First, if you qualify for a stimulus check and earn more than the adjusted gross income levels mentioned above, then your stimulus check will be less than $1,200 per person. Why? Remember, the stimulus check begins to phase out (gets reduced) by $5 for every additional $100 of adjusted gross income you have above those amounts. Therefore, the amount of your stimulus check will be lower based on the more adjusted gross income you have.
    xxxxxx

    Relative to phase outs, you are being told a married couple above $198,000 = 0

    Why?

    Above $150,000, you reduce 1,200 x 2 = 2,400 by $5 for every $100 over threshhold.
    So $198,000 – 150,000 = 48,000
    => divided by 100 = 480
    => x 5 = $2400
    => 2400 – 2400 = 0

    HOWEVER…… when you add kids, the phase out is ABOVE $198,000 depending on the number of kids.

    Note married with 2 kids = (1200 x 2) + (500 x 2) = 3400
    Threshold for married with two kids is $218,000….. make sense?

  152. Libturd says:

    Crazy good deals on electric smokers at D1ck’s. Not sure why besides the fact they are probably going under too. I just bought the 40″ bluetooth electric for $249.

  153. Libturd says:

    Chi, we still probably won’t qualify, even though I didn’t think your kid’s checks factored in to the equation. I figured, if you don’t qualify, you don’t get the checks for your kids. Now I went online at that address and it was about as helpful as our government. It returned this message:

    “According to information that we have on file, we cannot determine your eligibility for a payment at this time.”

    I love this administration.

  154. Libturd says:

    I looked up that error and it says, “If you verified your identity and received “Payment Status Not Available,” this means we cannot determine your eligibility for a payment at this time. This may occur for a variety of reasons, for example, if you didn’t file either a 2018 or 2019 tax return or you recently filed and the return has not been fully processed.”

    I did file my taxes a couple of days ago, so perhaps it will be based on my 2019 income, which is actually less than my 2018, but still too high.

  155. chicagofinance says:

    Stu: Is either your AGI for 2018 or 2019 north of $218K? ….then you are SOL…

    I should have better explained it as $198K + $10K per kid is the top end of the phase out based off of AGI for 2019, or 2018 if they don’t have 2018, but technically it is for 2020 income……

  156. chicagofinance says:
  157. Libturd says:

    With my multi, ain’t know way I’m getting paid.

  158. No One says:

    Can the US perhaps outsource all epidemic planning to Taiwan? Take that money we’ve been wasting on the WHO and transfer that whole sum to pay for our ally Taiwan’s superior help.

    https://thehill.com/opinion/international/492777-taiwan-chinas-nemesis-could-be-the-whos-salvation

  159. Hold my beer says:

    I got my money. Direct deposit. Booyah

  160. Hold my beer says:

    If we dont get a V shaped recovery this summer I think there’s a good chance another batch of checks get cut or household debit cards get mailed out.

  161. BoomerRemover says:

    Trump is now my sugar daddy. Though I will be near last to the trough. Filled out my direct deposit info and got affirmative confirmation.

  162. Hold my beer says:

    Essex

    Is that you in that clip?

  163. In social!sm we trust says:

    The best part about these stimulus checks…it’s not adjusted for cost of living. Talk about buying votes. In cheap areas, this is like 5% what they will earn in a year(Single individuals). Add in 500 a kid, and some of these mouth breathers will feel like they hit the lottery in the cheaper areas. They are now the govt’s b!tch.

    I hate social!sm. It pisses me off that people don’t stand by their principles. Businesses claiming they love a free market, but take bailouts from the govt (how much did businesses get bailed out in 12 years…holy sh!t). Bunch of registered republicans lining up for their social!st handouts, oops, I mean stimulus checks. What a bunch of sell outs. Stand by your principles, or become just another hypocrite.

  164. In social!sm we trust says:

    Think about that. Businesses got bailed out twice in 12 years. F’ing twice. Let me go puke. Fake economy. Capitalism…sure, keep telling yourself that.

  165. Hold my beer says:

    Called it

    Bread and circuses for all for the duration of the pandemic.

    2k a month for all americans making under 130k a year or couples up to 260k.

    16 year olds will be eligible too.

    https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/house-dems-propose-payment-of-2k-a-month-to-americans/

  166. grim says:

    Grim – so you use 75% of the money for payroll don’t lay off anyone you get loan forgiveness? Max is 2.5 times average monthly payroll seems about right to get out of this mess.

    Yep, we are going back to the extended hours we had for pickup/curbside sales, everyone is going to $15/hr.

  167. In social!sm we trust says:

    Exactly what I was afraid of.

    At least Dems stand by their principles unlike all these fake republicans.

    The US’s fall from grace is happening before our eyes.

  168. Libturd, Booyah says:

    It never recovered after we bailed out Wall Street in 2008. It’s been a giant debt funded facade ever since. Realistically, since 1999.

  169. ExEssex says:

    Because we have a raving imbecile in the White House:

    Resize icon
    First there was a Paycheck Protection Program. Now a Democratic senator wants a Dr. Fauci Protection Act.

    Sen. Ed Markey, D-Mass., in a potentially heated reelection primary with a Kennedy family scion, has come out in favor of making it harder to fire the directors within the National Institutes of Health. Anthony Fauci, who has taken a starring role in President Donald Trump’s daily coronavirus briefings, heads up the NIH’s National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

    “Our response to the coronavirus crisis must be based on science, on data, and on the truth. We cannot allow Donald Trump to silence Dr. Fauci or any other government scientists. Now more than ever, we must listen to our public health, medical, and scientific experts,” Markey said Tuesday in a press release issued with the text of the bill he plans to introduce.

  170. juice box says:

    Chris Cuomo really is a fredo. 65 year old cyclist is made to sound like a tough Biker in his Howard Stern interview.

  171. Walking says:

    When all else fails blame the intern. Looks like a story is developing that a young intern at the virology lab got the Wuhan bug and gave it to her boyfriend who then went to the wet market.

  172. ExEssex says:

    This ones for you Lib: https://youtu.be/SIdxVR_7ikg

  173. D-FENS says:

    Anyone watch Murphy on Tucker? Should be interesting. I’ll watch it tomorrow

  174. D-FENS says:

    Tucker Carlson: “By what authority did you nullify the bill of rights in issuing this order? How do you have the power to do that?“

    Governor Phil Murphy: “That’s above my pay grade Tucker, so I
    wasn’t thinking of the Bill of Rights when we did this

  175. homeboken says:

    DFens – I watched it, it was shocking.

    In response to the question:

    “Under what authority do you have the legal right to prohibit citizens from practicing their religion as guaranteed under the Bill of Rights”

    Murphy – “that’s above my pay grade, I can tell you I wasn’t thinking of the bill of Rights when I made that decision”

    HOLY Sh1T are we in trouble.

  176. joyce says:

    It’s a great (or awful) soundbite, depending on one’s perspective. It’s not like we needed more evidence… the government, all of it at all levels, thinks they can do whatever they want and they’re not ashamed of admitting it. I thought the first few questions over 3 or so minutes was a fair interview… in fact, the first question is what I posted here earlier today. But then it descended into bullshit. I disagree with the actions taken, but Murphy did fine in the interview given the joke that is Tucker Carlson & Fox News.

    homeboken says:
    April 15, 2020 at 9:04 pm
    DFens – I watched it, it was shocking.

    In response to the question:

    “Under what authority do you have the legal right to prohibit citizens from practicing their religion as guaranteed under the Bill of Rights”

    Murphy – “that’s above my pay grade, I can tell you I wasn’t thinking of the bill of Rights when I made that decision”

    HOLY Sh1T are we in trouble.

  177. Juice Box says:

    Tucker’s gotcha question on “it was a mental health decision” not closing liquor stores while taking away church services was as good one. Murphy shut down drive thru holy communion but not drive thru McDonald’s.

  178. grim says:

    Closing liquor stores will lead to bootlegging, moonshining, and rum running.

    Shit, that sounds great.

  179. grim says:

    By the way, Tucker Carlson looks like a raccoon, and this may be Murphy’s strongest performance ever. He handled himself and the questions far better than I’ve ever seen him before. He knew he was walking into the crosshairs by coming on the show, and handling it really, really well.

  180. D-FENS says:

    Who advocated closing liquor stores? I thought the argument was we should open up more… especially things that are constitutionally protected.

  181. Juice Box says:

    grim – So instead the gestapo is stepping on the necks of Rabbis instead of those lining up for hooch?

    How is this not going to cost us more in the courts later on? Those Rabbis have some of the most relentless lawyers on the planet, and his acknowledgment of his error ignoring the the law is going to cost you and me plenty.

  182. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    Maybe we don’t send their school system another multimillion dollar check because they run a deficit on purpose.

  183. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    The proper answer should have been, they can still practice their religion and assemble via zoom.

  184. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    And, as far as gatherings, he could have put that one on Trump.

  185. Presidential material says:

    “Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Wednesday rebuffed calls to allow raises for public workers that were supposed to kick in this month, saying the state did not have the money to pay for them.”

  186. IheartJoyce says:

    “Unemployment is spiraling toward 20%. Retail sales just dropped the most on record. Global economists predict the worst recession in eight decades. And stock investors have made peace with it all.

    Up 27% since mid-March, the S&P 500 on Tuesday capped its biggest 15-day run since 1933. So furious has the revival from the fastest bear market been, equity valuations are now back to where they were before it all started. Wednesday’s pullback hasn’t even retraced one day’s advance.”-wsj

    https://apple.news/AXwD1GZ4cQB-K3mTy97g38g

  187. grim says:

    Got a stimulus check yesterday – it’s indecipherably incorrect.

    I’m not sure that number is even possible based on formula. To even get close to that it would have had to been off the 2018 taxes (one less kid), even though 2019 was submitted (and refunded) more than a month ago. Shrug.

  188. 30 year realtor says:

    Essential industries like meat processing are having difficulty staffing plants due to outbreaks of the virus. This is happening despite social distancing. Yet somehow this fails to register with many of you. Perhaps you need to accept that our society and economy would be similarly disrupted by fallout from illness due to the virus if no restrictions were in place. The idea that life and the economy would be chugging along as normal without the restrictions government has put in place is simply absurd.

  189. 30 year realtor says:

    The idea that anyone’s constitutional right to practice religion is being infringed upon is a joke. Can anyone explain how religion has been specifically targeted in a way that is different than any other aspect of life as a result of restrictions put in place to combat the virus? No shortage of inconvenience for everyone.

  190. grim says:

    Suspect we’re going to see this argument used (constitutional infringement) when public protests are prohibited and public protesters are arrested for peaceably assembling.

  191. D-FENS says:

    Live free or die

  192. grim says:

    It may play out something like:

    Deep South state attempts to pass a new anti-abortion law in the midst of covid.

    Protestors come out, claiming they can peacefully protest while social distancing.

    They are all arrested, thrown into tightly packed holding cells.

    Liberal media blows up over tyrannical abuse of power, infringement of the first amendment.

  193. D-FENS says:

    It’s not hard to find. You don’t have to be a lawyer to understand it. It’s literally in the first amendment of the Bill of Rights.

    https://www.history.com/topics/united-states-constitution/freedom-of-religion

    30 year realtor says:
    April 16, 2020 at 7:10 am
    The idea that anyone’s constitutional right to practice religion is being infringed upon is a joke. Can anyone explain how religion has been specifically targeted in a way that is different than any other aspect of life as a result of restrictions put in place to combat the virus? No shortage of inconvenience for everyone.

  194. D-FENS says:

    They would be right. Let them protest. The government does not have the authority to force them to do otherwise.

    grim says:
    April 16, 2020 at 7:41 am
    It may play out something like:

    Deep South state attempts to pass a new anti-abortion law in the midst of covid.

    Protestors come out, claiming they can peacefully protest while social distancing.

    They are all arrested, thrown into tightly packed holding cells.

    Liberal media blows up over tyrannical abuse of power, infringement of the first amendment.

  195. grim says:

    God the first amendment is so ironically beautiful.

  196. D-FENS says:

    That’s not the argument. The argument is that the government doesn’t have the authority to force us to do otherwise in the United States. They need to acknowledge we adhere on a voluntary basis.

    30 year realtor says:
    April 16, 2020 at 6:56 am
    Essential industries like meat processing are having difficulty staffing plants due to outbreaks of the virus. This is happening despite social distancing. Yet somehow this fails to register with many of you. Perhaps you need to accept that our society and economy would be similarly disrupted by fallout from illness due to the virus if no restrictions were in place. The idea that life and the economy would be chugging along as normal without the restrictions government has put in place is simply absurd.

  197. grim says:

    They would be right. Let them protest. The government does not have the authority to force them to do otherwise.

    What’s the difference between arresting a Evangelical Pastor and an Abortion Protester in this case?

    Nothing.

  198. D-FENS says:

    If corona virus doesn’t kill them, those Rabbis that were thrown in jail are going to be rich.

  199. 30 year realtor says:

    D-FENS,

    You could benefit from a bit of legal education. How does it escape you that the intent of the constitution regarding religion is to prevent religious persecution? That it is all about all religions having equal standing and protection. The measures currently in place do not treat any religion differently than any other.

  200. grim says:

    Any stance on based on constitutional originalism means you need to accept the second amendment in the same manner as you interpret the first.

    Sure about that?

  201. D-FENS says:

    If a religious organization can show that they can practice…using social distancing similar to other opened ‘essential’ services…there is no reason for them to be shut down.

    Put another way, If they are not endangering the public any more than a grocery store is, they should be allowed to be open under the Free Exercise Clause.

    30 year realtor says:
    April 16, 2020 at 8:00 am
    D-FENS,

    You could benefit from a bit of legal education. How does it escape you that the intent of the constitution regarding religion is to prevent religious persecution? That it is all about all religions having equal standing and protection. The measures currently in place do not treat any religion differently than any other.

  202. Fast Eddie says:

    There’s someone on the news saying COVID-19 is rac1st.

    That is one discerning germ!

  203. D-FENS says:

    I don’t want to rehash that here and get us off topic…but no…it does not worry me one bit.

    The arguments made by the legal team in Cheeseman v Polillo are compelling. One of them is a constitutional historian. Many of the laws that explain the role of the militia and ‘arms’ were passed right here in NJ.

    Essentially, the problem in the revolutionary war was that everyone showed up to fight the government, they showed up with all different cablers and types of weapons. This was a continuing problem for Washington’s army until the French resupplied them. The regulation was designed to make sure everyone had similar firearms at home in case they were called to battle.

    grim says:
    April 16, 2020 at 8:04 am
    Any stance on based on constitutional originalism means you need to accept the second amendment in the same manner as you interpret the first.

    Sure about that?

  204. Deadconomy says:

    U.S. P-8A reconnaissance plane was soaring above the Mediterranean Sea on Wednesday when a Russian SU-35 fighter jet appeared on its tail. For 42 minutes, U.S. Navy officials say, the Russian pilot flew in an “unsafe” manner—at one-point flying upside down and sweeping within 25 feet of the plane’s nose.
    The high-stakes intercept, which U.S. officials say put the American aircrew at risk, was just one in a string of incidents that took place over a roughly 24-hour period in which American military resolve was tested across the globe. No Americans killed or injured during any of these events, but the timing was no coincidence. With novel coronavirus cases among U.S. service members now at 2,486 and climbing, America’s adversaries are emboldened to test U.S. military dominance, current and former Defense Department officials tell TIME.

    https://apple.news/AIqGgTGRaRgywKpXDVD-wNQ

  205. Deadconomy says:

    Past 24 hours:
    -Russia test fired an anti-satellite missile
    -Russian jet buzzes U.S. spy plane in Mediterranean
    -Iranian gun boats harass U.S. warships in Persian Gulf
    -North Korea fires cruise missiles into sea
    -China may have conducted nuclear test (h/t @mgordonwsj)

  206. Deadconomy says:

    Bernie was right, we don’t need the military.. joker.

  207. 30 year realtor says:

    Grim,
    If the best argument you can make regarding my interpretation of a portion of the 1st amendment is to change the subject, I am not interested in having that argument.

  208. 30 year realtor says:

    Covid-19 is having a disproportionate impact on people of color. Many of the reasons for this disproportionate impact have their roots in our history of institutional racism.

    Eddie, not sure if you missed the point of the person making the statement or if they failed to articulate their point effectively.

  209. 3b says:

    Funny I think Tucker Carlson is one of the more reasonable voices on Fox

  210. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    Tucker can be good at times but at other times, his agenda takes over. I thought he had a good interview going with Murphy but I shut it off after I saw it go sideways. That being said…Carlson literally has mind control over my MIL.

  211. Hold my beer says:

    I seem to be getting most amazon prime items in 1 or 2 days again. This started about a week or so ago.

    Still can’t get a delivery slot for amazon fresh. I even tried placing in order at 2 in the morning and couldn’t get it. Meanwhile the stuff in my cart gets sold out while I wait for a delivery time

  212. Fabius Maximus says:

    Tucker is an AHole. Its bad when your show gets canceled after interviewing Jon Stewart.

    This is still (and in someways more) relevant today.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFQFB5YpDZE

  213. 3b says:

    Fab any one on the right you would consider to be an a hole.

  214. ExEssex says:

    8:20 admit it, you are completely uninformed.

    Tick….tick….tick seconds left for the Orange imbecile.

    Get out your maga diapers.

  215. Fast Eddie says:

    Tucker A s0cial1st is an AHole.

    There, fixed it.

  216. 3b says:

    Crickets in the media this morning regarding reports that US intelligence now believes the virus was created in a lab in Wuhan and lax safety measures have led us to where we are now.

  217. Hold my beer says:

    Maybe people will wake up and realize the CCP is an enemy of not only its neighboring countries but the entire world.

    Vote with your wallet and stop buying stuff made in China.

  218. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    CCP is a party that not long ago…starved 40 million people with their ideological nonsense. I’m old enough to remember Tiananmen Square. The only reason for China’s economic rise is because they cheat the market. They subsidize industries with free money and combine that with essentially slave labor and no pollution control to effectively bring products to market that often cost less than the raw materials cost. They do this to put domestic industries out of business and then they begin to allow the price to float. The only way out of this up until now has been to outsource to China or some other third world nation. This is why tariffs are important and I’ve been saying this for a good 8 years.

    That being said…we need to start to unwind our trade relationship with China. This isn’t a symbiotic relationship.

  219. Libturd, can't believe the country has to pull the lever for a dementia patient says:

    I am not denying THIS intelligence report. But it’s really hypocritical to deny every single piece of news from China for the past one hundred years and then when a single piece of news is released that supports your latest narrative, it becomes the gospel.

    Heck, US intelligence told Trump about the existence and spread of the virus in November, but that’s fake news.

    Are you aware of how silly the right looks?

    Here’s another one.

    Can you believe Pelosi held up those stimulus checks (intentionally deceiving the public by leaving out the fact that the Dems wanted them to not go to the wealthy) while our people are starving? But you won’t mind if I hold up the printing of these checks for a week to put my name on them, right?

    Fake news. Pass. Fake news. Pass. Fake news. Pass.

    Honestly, this WH administration is truly a god-damned fcukin’ embarrassment.

    Want to know how bad it is? Your incumbent is about to lose to Biden. TO BIDEN, whose only where he is today because Obama lacked any foreign affairs experience back in 2008 and Biden served on the foreign relations committee.

    You can add the Republican party to:

    Trump Airlines
    Trump Vodka
    Trump Mortgage
    Trump, The Game
    Trump Cas1nos (Marina, Plaza, Castle, Taj Mahal)
    Trump Steak
    Trump Magazine
    Trump University
    NJ Generals (OFL)
    Trump Foundation
    Trump Ice (water)
    Trump Tower Tampa

    And of course, the blood on his hands with this virus.

  220. Libturd says:

    Wow,

    That’s quite a list. I guess that’s what he calls winning?

  221. Fabius Maximus says:

    3b,

    No not really, while there are a lot of Fox, there are actually a few good people at Fox. I dont agree with a lot of what Chris Wallace says, but he’s not an Ahole.

  222. 30 year realtor says:

    Story in NYT today about protests about stay at home orders in several states. When these folks start getting sick due to lack of social distancing as many church goers have, will these people learn?

    Live free or die? You go first!

  223. homeboken says:

    Grim – The only difference is that one if these already happened. In our own state, no less.

    15 members of a synagogue were arrested and charged for violating the social distancing order. They were congregating inside their own synagogue.

    The 1st amendment is very clear, in plain text. I don’t care if you want to protest abortion controls, quarantines or perhaps you think the US flag should be Red, White and Green. Every single one of those rights is inalienable. All should be protected, at all times, especially in times that are extraordinary.

    I feel the same about the 2nd amendment as well as every other birth-rights afforded to every citizen.

  224. joyce says:

    What if they don’t get sick?

    30 year realtor says:
    April 16, 2020 at 11:29 am
    Story in NYT today about protests about stay at home orders in several states. When these folks start getting sick due to lack of social distancing as many church goers have, will these people learn?

  225. 30 year realtor says:

    Joyce,
    What if they don’t get sick? More power to them. Meanwhile they are potentially jeopardizing the lives of others including their own families.

  226. Hold my beer says:

    30 year realtor

    I think they were protesting the overreach, In Michigan you can go grocery shopping at walmart, but you can’t buy gardening supplies or paint there. You can’t fish from a boat. (How are you going to catch corona on a 12 ft boat in the middle of a lake?). You can’t relocate to your vacation house to wait out the pandemic, even though the vast majority of cases in Michigan are among poor minorities in the Detroit area who surprisingly don’t own lake front cabins.

  227. 3b says:

    Lib My point is that this was discussed earlier and ignored, because saying it originated in China is racist. I don’t care if it’s Trump or Obama or Humpty Dumpty who is President. If the Chinese government screwed up due to lax security procedures in one of their labs they should be held accountable for the untold damage they have done to the world. Long before this virus while the Democrats have been screaming about Russian interference in the 2016 election, I have maintained that China as in the government is the real enemy of the USA, and the world. They are a brutal corrupt government who have destroyed Tibet, are destroying the Uighurs and use guns against their own people as in Tianemen square. Silence from the left, and many on the right as well, because they don’t want to upset their corporate overlords. I don’t like Trump, he is an egotistical buffoon, but he is not a politician. Many who voted for Trump would in my opinion have voted for Sanders. I would have voted for Sanders, but I stayed home last Election and will be staying home for this one too.

  228. Fabius Maximus says:

    This first amendment discussion is pointless. The court cases will be filed and they will lose as its a “clear and present danger”.

  229. homeboken says:

    Anybody remember Jon Durham. I am pretty eager to hear/see how his investigation turns out. Apparently Durham relocated to DC right before the lock-downs so he could continue his investigation and minimize time lost.

  230. homeboken says:

    Fab – Have you seen how the makeup of federal courts has changed in the last 3 years? I think any 1st amendment cases might just find a judge that is sympathetic to protecting the plain text of the constitution.

  231. Libturd says:

    Appreciate the explanation 3B, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. It was not pointed at you. And as you know already, I never bit even a bit on the dossier bullsh1t or the Russian election interference. Of course, I was in favor of the impeachment as withholding aid unless you look into my opponents son is certainly grounds for it.

  232. leftwing says:

    “NC. 5,108 reported cases. 112 people have died. 500,000 unemployment claims last week.”

    And, Joyce, how many of those 112 are already on their way out, ie, over 80 with co-morbidities before C19…

    Listen, I love my parents as much as anyone, they are both in their 80s with various issues. They will be pushing daisies in the next ten years, even just statistically aside from their own issues.

    So, would I prefer to keep them on this earth until age 88 rather than 87? Keep them until age 86 rather than 85?

    Of course. But that is not the question.

    The relevant question is should my desire to give my elderly parents an extra year of life or two be worth the decimation afflicted on 500,000 other wage earners and their families and parents.

    In that context a stance favoring my parents looks, well, downright greedy and self centered.

  233. joyce says:

    I think it’s clear the the forecasts & models that our government claimed to be guided by were overstated. And in the past, we haven’t taken these drastic measures in response to other things that were potentially jeopardizing the lives of others.

    Again, it’s not that we shouldn’t do anything. It’s that we shouldn’t be doing what we’re doing, in my opinion.

    30 year realtor says:
    April 16, 2020 at 11:37 am
    Joyce,
    What if they don’t get sick? More power to them. Meanwhile they are potentially jeopardizing the lives of others including their own families.

  234. 3b says:

    Lib I understand. My biggest problem with the Democrats and the left is this obsession with Trump, as if all was well with our country prior to him becoming President. The USA has been on a self inflicted decline for the last 25 years or so, long before Trump. I know people who did not give a toss about politics until Trump won, and now they are experts! I despise both the left and the right!

  235. joyce says:

    This article includes the problem with how our system of government has been corrupted. Not all exercises of police power will withstand constitutional scrutiny. The law is what some jackass in a robe says it is… the written law doesn’t matter.

    30 year realtor says:
    April 16, 2020 at 11:35 am
    Article explaining police power of states
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/03/18/states-police-power-coronavirus-135826

  236. joyce says:

    What if someone is protesting outdoors, 6ft away from others?

    Fabius Maximus says:
    April 16, 2020 at 11:49 am
    This first amendment discussion is pointless. The court cases will be filed and they will lose as its a “clear and present danger”.

  237. leftwing says:

    “What if they don’t get sick? More power to them. Meanwhile they are potentially jeopardizing the lives of others including their own families.”

    Not true.

    First, as of today in the US there are 653k people who have C19. That is two tenths of one percent. 0.2%. And, recall, most recover.

    The general population doesn’t need “more power” to not get sick. The majority of them haven’t. And won’t. Their own actions should be their own decision.

    Secondly, as it relates to infecting others and impacting others’ lives and well being…anyone who is concerned about becoming C19 infected is entirely in control of their own destiny. Stay home except for absolute necessities – food. And otherwise social distance, wash your hands, and don’t touch your face. You won’t get this virus if you follow those simple instructions.

    No need to shut down the entire country, toss 20 million people out of work in weeks, and arrest a bunch mourners burying their rabbi.

  238. joyce says:

    “Imminent lawless action” test supplants “clear and present danger” test
    https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/898/clear-and-present-danger-test

    Justice William J. Brennan Jr. redrafted the per curiam opinion, substituting for clear and present danger a new standard (Schwartz 1995: 27): “The constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.”

    The imminent lawless action test has largely supplanted the clear and present danger test. The clear and present danger remains, however, the standard for assessing constitutional protection for speech in the military courts.

  239. chicagofinance says:

    I don’t like Trump, but in 20/20 hindsight, I think it is fortunate for the rest of the world that we have a narcissistic, impulsive, willfully protocol ignorant, dishonest lout, who is focused on his business empire and investments while sitting in office. If we fear the damage this guy can wring from his influence, imagine what the Chinese think?

    The only thing I fault the orange one (salmon colored now?) is engaging in bilateral negotiations with the Chinese. We should be building a multilateral coalition to take down those bastards. That said, the beauty of Trump is his singularly impulsive chaos, and the EU is a bunch of empty suits…….. as would be anyone in the democratic party (RELATIVE TO THIS ISSUE RIGHT NOW).

    We are at war with China….. we need to be unpredictable….. Trump accomplishes that better than most…. he is not good for our long-term standing, but he needs to be the catalyst to really go berserk against that country….

  240. Libturd says:

    They better be careful if the person behind them is screaming.

    The truth is, let them do what they want to do. It will benefit those with some sanity.

    As to how we are handling the virus. I will still maintain we blew it at the start. But ignoring that, how can you use any of the strategies that perhaps DO have some merit without everyone in the population having access to gloves and masks, let alone testing kits?

    In NJ, I continue to hear of people not being able to get tested who need to. Also, due to the stupidity that runs through much of the masses, I rarely see individuals, fortunate enough to have their own PPE, use it in a manner that offers any protection to themselves or others.

  241. Fabius Maximus says:

    Joyce,

    It all comes down to public safety and that will be a high bar to overcome in the courts. What will be interesting to watch will be the irony and hypocrisy of those that are protesting these free speech issues, but where cheering Occupy protesters getting tear gassed in handcuffs.

  242. Libturd, telling it like it is says:

    Well they were protesting Wall Street excess, which IS a much big danger to the government than poor people dying.

  243. joyce says:

    You can admit you were wrong again. And yes, I agree hypocrites are everywhere unfortunately.

    Fabius Maximus says:
    April 16, 2020 at 12:37 pm
    Joyce,

    It all comes down to public safety and that will be a high bar to overcome in the courts. What will be interesting to watch will be the irony and hypocrisy of those that are protesting these free speech issues, but where cheering Occupy protesters getting tear gassed in handcuffs.

  244. Fabius Maximus says:

    The interesting point on the Dossier is that no one can seem to point to any part of it that can be proved false. Yet as time goes on, more and more of it has been proved correct. I posted way back in 2016 about weird IP traffic that was flagged going in and out of Trump Tower. If you want to be objective, read the Muller report and make your own determination. I offered to buy Gary a drink if he would read it, but got nothing. I suppose I’ll just have to keep listening to regurgitated RW talking points.

  245. Fabius Maximus says:

    Joyce,

    You lost me again. What exactly am I wrong about.

    Can right to Assembly be denied under Clear and Present Danger?
    Can right to Assembly be denied under Public Safety concerns?

    You may have a different opinion or judgement. That’s fine, but it doesn’t make me wrong any more than it makes you right and vice versa.

  246. joyce says:

    “Can right to Assembly be denied under Clear and Present Danger?”

    No, unless they want to ignore precedent.

  247. Fabius Maximus says:

    So I submitted my taxes last night and I’m writing the checks today. Someone has to pay for all this corporate welfare.

    No Stimulus for me, but I’m ok with that. I take the JJ approach to taxes. I’m happy to pay because it shows I’m earning and I’m ballin’

    I don’t have a problem with those getting a check who earn less than me. I do have an issue with the giveaways for those above me. https://itep.org/congress-cares-for-wealthy-with-covid-19-tax-policy-provisions/

  248. Fabius Maximus says:

    Joyce

    First “no, unless” means it can be used. The question then becomes, can its use hold. You say it would ignore precedent. What precedent would be ignored in this case? I cant find one.

    The only precedent in scope here would be the question if there is an actual danger in the assembly. That Virgina pastor that just died just answered that question. We also will see if there is an Easter fallout in a few weeks.

  249. Fast Eddie says:

    Someone has to pay for all this corporate welfare.

    And to ensure that my stock dividends are systematically deposited on a monthly basis!

  250. ExEssex says:

    1:35….yeah. I’m to believe you are above all of the chaos. “Your” work is essential….

    Found Eddie: https://youtu.be/hNuu9CpdjIo

  251. joyce says:

    “No, unless” is a rhetorical comment. I posted the precedent, scroll up.

  252. 3b says:

    Fab was it any different with Obama and the Dems bailout during the financial crisis? I don’t recall, but I imagine there were goodies in there too for the wealthy. And of course no one of consequence went to jail.

  253. Libturd says:

    There is an excellent discussion going on in the primary video poker “Advantage Player” board in regards to how to reopen society. These are all incredibly disciplined and scientific people who use math as a basis for nearly every decision they make. Not surprisingly, after nearly three weeks of intriguing debate, not a single partisan argument has been brought it. It’s incredibly refreshing. The other thing that makes it interesting is that many of these people are worldly as they go wherever the advantage opportunities are, many of them having spent time in China and other Asian countries. They are all professional gamblers, so much so that they are currently collecting unemployment due to the shut down of the casin0s. I would say the average age of the participant is probably 60, so it’s a very different perspective. I just felt like sharing because it would be nice if people exhibited similar behaviors here.

  254. Fabius Maximus says:

    Joyce,

    If you are talking about Imminent Lawlessness, that clarifies a use case for CaPD it does not replace it.
    Its a moot point anyway as we are not talking about a theoretical assembly that may or may not happen. We are also not looking at an assembly that is at some point in the future that is so far out its not relevant.

  255. Fabius Maximus says:

    3b

    GWB signed TARP so most of its on him. Also most of the auto bailout was paid back While it wasn’t perfect, I can accept some level of grift, but this is magnitudes greater.

  256. Fast Eddie says:

    Fab was it any different with Obama and the Dems bailout during the financial crisis?

    $887,000,000,000 dollars spread around cronies and labor unions that was funneled back into the DNC. They call this money laundering. Remember the not so shovel ready jobs or the multi-million dollar green energy contracts given to Michael Oblama’s friends’ consulting businesses?

  257. chicagofinance says:

    They are either using your 2019 AGI or 2018….. if the number is not $3,400 or $2,900, then you are in the phaseout…… it isn’t pulled out of thin air…. double check your tax returns…. the specific line AGI…. if it is screwed up that badly, you better figure out why, because sooner or later you will get a correspondence audit to reconcile it….

    grim says:
    April 16, 2020 at 5:11 am
    Got a stimulus check yesterday – it’s indecipherably incorrect.

    I’m not sure that number is even possible based on formula. To even get close to that it would have had to been off the 2018 taxes (one less kid), even though 2019 was submitted (and refunded) more than a month ago. Shrug.

  258. chicagofinance says:

    I’m not excusing the 2008 & 2009 bailouts, but to be clear, the auto bailout was one of the few things that the American taxpayers got completely hosed on…… mind you, I am focused on pure accounting gains and losses. I am not discussing risk-adjusted returns. Because certainly we made a ton of profit on AIG, but it was certainly piss poor given how fcuked up it was…..

    Fabius Maximus says:
    April 16, 2020 at 2:38 pm
    3b

    GWB signed TARP so most of its on him. Also most of the auto bailout was paid back While it wasn’t perfect, I can accept some level of grift, but this is magnitudes greater.

  259. ExEssex says:

    2:56 at some point the question needed to be asked if America wants to be in a given business. We’ll bailout the airlines this time, not because they are “deserving” but simply because what choice do we have? Answer: none.

  260. 3b says:

    Fab You’ve an answer for everything so it’s all Bush’s fault even though it was the end of his Presidency. Obama had 8 years plenty of time to break up the banks, restore Glass Stegal. And time to send to send bank CEOs and others to jail.

  261. 3b says:

    Chgo I understand, we made money on some of the investments, but it’s not what the government should have done. Moral hazard and all. I am referring to the financial crisis not the situation we are in now. And heads should have rolled. 8 years of Obama and nothing. The Democrats have the guy on a pedestal, I personally think he was less than mediocre at best.

  262. chicagofinance says:

    Ex: The assets will still be there, it is just a matter of who owns them. If we let the equity go to sh!t and let them bankrupt, then the owners of the bonds will inherit the assets. There really is a choice, but the industry was really cleaned up and functioning well. This would be in contrast with retailers that were essentially fcuked before all of this started and now are essentially nuked……
    e.g., https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/JCP?p=JCP&.tsrc=fin-srch-v1

    ExEssex says:
    April 16, 2020 at 3:09 pm
    2:56 at some point the question needed to be asked if America wants to be in a given business. We’ll bailout the airlines this time, not because they are “deserving” but simply because what choice do we have? Answer: none.

  263. grim says:

    They are either using your 2019 AGI or 2018….. if the number is not $3,400 or $2,900, then you are in the phaseout…… it isn’t pulled out of thin air…. double check your tax returns…. the specific line AGI….

    I think it’s a question of the $500 per dependent as being part of the phase out calculation, not just the base amount – ok – none of the “calculators” online took that into account either, so perhaps I’m not the only one that was confused there. But still wrong.

  264. Libturd says:

    The fact this information is missing from the website is deplorable and representative of the third world country of which we are rapidly becoming. All we need now are some riots.

  265. Comrade Nom Deplume, Quarantard says:

    Gluteus the Gooner is back and just as bilious!!!!

    Hey, I missed you. Every time I hate on a Gooner, I think of you. And whenever anyone asks me why I hate the Gooners, your ears must be burning.

  266. Comrade Nom Deplume, Quarantard says:

    Libturd,

    “There is an excellent discussion going on in the primary video poker “Advantage Player” board in regards to how to reopen society.”

    So is there any conscensus of opinion? Or a few popular options that have a lot in common?

  267. Hold my beer says:

    I just got off the phone with one of my friends. He just found out his boss a few levels above him died from corona. No pre-existing conditions. Early 50’s.

  268. chicagofinance says:

    grim: making sure…. you saw this?

    chicagofinance says:
    April 15, 2020 at 2:21 pm
    Answered this question …. to the extent this information helps anyone relative to phase outs….
    xxxxxxxxx
    So, what if I earn more than these amounts? Do I still qualify for a stimulus check?
    It depends how much money you earn. First, if you qualify for a stimulus check and earn more than the adjusted gross income levels mentioned above, then your stimulus check will be less than $1,200 per person. Why? Remember, the stimulus check begins to phase out (gets reduced) by $5 for every additional $100 of adjusted gross income you have above those amounts. Therefore, the amount of your stimulus check will be lower based on the more adjusted gross income you have.
    xxxxxx

    Relative to phase outs, you are being told a married couple above $198,000 = 0

    Why?

    Above $150,000, you reduce 1,200 x 2 = 2,400 by $5 for every $100 over threshhold.
    So $198,000 – 150,000 = 48,000
    => divided by 100 = 480
    => x 5 = $2400
    => 2400 – 2400 = 0

    chicagofinance says:
    April 15, 2020 at 3:17 pm
    Stu: Is either your AGI for 2018 or 2019 north of $218K? ….then you are SOL…

    I should have better explained it as $198K + $10K per kid is the top end of the phase out based off of AGI for 2019, or 2018 if they don’t have 2018, but technically it is for 2020 income……

  269. Fabius Maximus says:

    3b

    Not so much an answer to everything, more like a great recollection of what actually happened and when. Regardless how long was left in his presidency, GWB owns the fact that he ran the economy into a wall and bailed out the banks. Will it be a case that in 10 years you will be excusing Donnies handling of the Covid response as he was in the last nine months of his presidency. I hope we all around for that discussion.

    O can be graded/criticized/praised on what he did after he took office not before. Not prosecutiing the banks, fair. Letting the Bush admin and the telecomms industry off for their 4th amendment violations is fair
    I recall that someone in here wanted O to cover the cost of the MJ funeral in the bill as it was the only truly “shovel-ready” project at the time. I complained about the infrastructure projects as there was no point funneling projects to large corps when the need was to get Joe and Jane six pack back to work. I’m making the same point today.

  270. Fabius Maximus says:

    Eddie Ray,

    I did not say your name three times, but you show up like BeetleJuice?
    It must have been my thoughts today. I was trying to remember the wording of a dumb statement (there where many) you made years ago that went along the lines of “the US legal system was founded and is run on Jude0-Chr1stian principals and values”

  271. Blue Ribbon Teacher says:

    Obama could have destroyed the bad acting banks. Instead, he chose to let them settle out of court with no admission of wrongdoing.

  272. joyce says:

    That’s incorrect. It did replace/supplant/supersede the standard.
    Also, the conversation started by others was about recent events (protests and religion) and hypothetical futures ones. Not sure what you read.

    Fabius Maximus says:
    April 16, 2020 at 2:35 pm
    Joyce,

    If you are talking about Imminent Lawlessness, that clarifies a use case for CaPD it does not replace it.
    Its a moot point anyway as we are not talking about a theoretical assembly that may or may not happen. We are also not looking at an assembly that is at some point in the future that is so far out its not relevant.

  273. joyce says:

    The assets will still be there, it is just a matter of who owns them. …let the equity go to sh!t and let them bankrupt

    Yes! This has always been the answer to every financial crisis. Let the restructuring happen.

  274. Fabius Maximus says:

    PPP all tapped out.
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/paycheck-protection-program-out-of-money-small-businesses-shut-out/

    We’ll have to wait to see if we’ll get any visibility into the Mnuchin slush fund.

    When we reopen, it will be interesting to see how service industries will change. IF you are working now outside the house, that should continue. IF the diner is surviing on drive up and take out, all well and good. Many will shutter and sit down will take a long time to recover. WFH will probably mean your desk or office is gone and its now a floating hot resource. If you are in the arts, keep creating content. If you are unemployed and have access to wifi, start free online courses to retrain to a new career.
    Look to the future, for many it will be a fresh start.

  275. grim says:

    718,000 unemployment claims in NJ over the last 4 weeks, 22 million nationally.

  276. grim says:

    NJ: ~200 layoffs for every covid death – that’s 15% of NJs workforce.

  277. grim says:

    We are going to see the pace pick up significantly next week, as NJ effectively announced restrictions in place for at least another 30 days.

    There is a good chance we see 1,000,000.

  278. Libturd, the Master Beta says:

    Here’s how a professional gambler views it.

    I was focusing a lot on the “underlying factors”, too, until I read that obesity is considered an underlying factor. https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/why-is-obesity-a-risk-factor-for-severe-covid19-symptoms

    With 40% of the country obese (aged 20 or over), not many would be allowed out if all with “underlying factors” are quarantined.

    –Dunbar

    Dunbar is infamous for his risk of ruin software and black jack analysis.

  279. D-FENS says:

    1 million unemployed, newly released prisoners, thousands of sic cops not on the job… sleep well…

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