C19 Open Discussion Week 14b

From the Star Ledger:

N.J. to borrow $1.7B from feds to pay unemployment benefits 

New Jersey will borrow $1.7 billion from the federal government to replenish the unemployment fund that’s paid out more than $2.1 billion in benefits to workers who lost jobs or hours during the pandemic crisis.

Robert Asaro-Angelo said last week said he plans to submit a request by the end of the month to the U.S. Department of Labor for a line of credit to pay weekly unemployment claims.

The state will submit a request for a $1.7 billion loan to tide the state over in August, September and October, said labor department spokeswoman Angela Delli-Santi. 

Despite the loan, the state will not increase the unemployment tax rates paid by employers and employees through the end of the next fiscal year in June 2021, Delli-Santi said. “No decisions have been made on FY22,” she said.

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148 Responses to C19 Open Discussion Week 14b

  1. dentss dunnigan says:

    First

  2. Chicago says:

    Deux

  3. Juice Box says:

    Who predicted bidding wars for the Mets in 2020?

  4. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Just wondering, what is the purpose of the move? To save money? He is already making good money and on his way to becoming rich (if not already). Why should he lower his standard of living?

    I mean having the option to raise your kid in Nj or Kansas(put any location that you stated), and you would pick Kansas? Do you know how much it costs to go to the beach in Kansas? It’s nothing like living in metro nyc. I guess if you grew up there, you don’t know any better, but that’s not an easy move for someone that grew up in high cost locations on the East or west coast.

    Nomad says:
    June 17, 2020 at 6:00 am
    JCer, you sound like you are in good shape and your kids will benefit immensely. What I am curious to know is does WFH work for someone like you should you wish to leave current employer and find another top tier opportunity if you No longer live in NJ? Flyover actually has some great places with schools as good as if not better than NJ. Flyover also offers up some great state colleges at reasonable prices. Overland Park KS. Omaha, Columbus Oh and Indianapolis come to mind and good healthcare should you need it. Different value system too and for the most part, none of the arrogance Good pizza and bagels are harder to find but when you do, it may be as good or even better. Now if you need to be in an office, that’s a different story, less opportunity in flyover but also less competition.

  5. Juice Box says:

    Single family homes sub-500 are seeing bidding wars.

    “We’re seeing a frenzy,” Boston Redfin agent Delince Louis said. “Any home below $500,000 is receiving multiple offers; we just don’t have the supply to meet the demand.”

    https://www.redfin.com/blog/competition-increases-homebuyers-coronavirus-drives-housing-shortage/

  6. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Are you recruiting jcer to be a good Christian?

  7. The Great Pumpkin says:

    How many years ago did I annoy this blog to no end that this would happen?

    Juice Box says:
    June 17, 2020 at 8:21 am
    Single family homes sub-500 are seeing bidding wars.

    “We’re seeing a frenzy,” Boston Redfin agent Delince Louis said. “Any home below $500,000 is receiving multiple offers; we just don’t have the supply to meet the demand.”

  8. Juice Box says:

    My boss just resigned. Took a new position that was advertised 100% WFH, will continue to work into semi-retirement from sunny Fort Lauderdale, kids are grown and out, they had already emptied out the nest in NJ (sold all tchotchkes online) and after a painting shingle will be out soon. Nice place has an outdoor oasis like my crib and is in my neighborhood, should command a few bids.

    Opportunity for me to do the same? I only want to be in Florida 1/2 the year, other half who knows perhaps Europe as I have the ability to come and go as I please.

  9. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Supply is f’ed. Also, remember how this works for future implications. Meaning, current retirees areas are a bubble. Once the last of the boomers start retiring, demand will fall for these retirement areas and pick up again when the millennials go into mass retirement.

    Millennials are now at the 500k or less market. In time, they will start to go into their 40’s and peak earning years; this is when they will drive up the high end market and then watch it all bust again as they head for retirement.

    Look what the millennials did to the housing market already. In 2010, they couldn’t afford housing and decided to rent in urban areas bringing back cities. Hence, cities and rentals went through the roof. They are now beginning to build families and buy housing. Watch the impact on housing through the rest of their life.

  10. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Juice,

    You are just getting older. This is what people do when they are close to retirement. At least the ones that have money to.

    Juice Box says:
    June 17, 2020 at 8:32 am
    My boss just resigned. Took a new position that was advertised 100% WFH, will continue to work into semi-retirement from sunny Fort Lauderdale, kids are grown and out, they had already emptied out the nest in NJ (sold all tchotchkes online) and after a painting shingle will be out s

  11. Juice Box says:

    Pumps – Opportunity for WFH was not there before, person I am taking about was able to negotiate it, however go look online there are now a ton of WFH jobs.

    https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=remote%20work%20available&l=Manhattan%2C%20NY&vjk=7042518402882bf8

  12. Juice Box says:

    Pumps – re: “demand will fall for these retirement areas and pick up again”

    Retirement home areas are vast and wide. They are still building 1 million plus new retirement homes up and down Route 4 between Tampa and Orlando, I doubt there will be any kind of demand for those homes from the Gen-Xers for if ever. Whole retirement areas are expected to ROT as the boomer die off.

  13. iamrooftog says:

    When Workers Can Live Anywhere, Many Ask: Why Do I Live Here?
    Coronavirus prompts Americans to reassess the need to reside near hot job markets


    The coronavirus is challenging the assumption that Americans must stay physically tethered to traditionally hot job markets—and the high costs and small spaces that often come with them—to access the best work opportunities. Three months into the pandemic, many workers find themselves in jobs that, at least for now, will let them work anywhere, creating a wave of movement across the country.

    Recessions tend to damp migration. Americans typically move with a new job already in hand, and hiring plummets during downturns. The 2008 financial crisis limited Americans’ mobility because millions of homeowners found themselves underwater on their homes, unable to sell without taking a loss.

    But this time might be different. Home prices haven’t yet taken a major hit. And the forces at play are novel. Confronted with the prospect of not being able to easily fly in for a visit with an elderly parent, grown children are suddenly questioning why they live so far away in the first place.

    Many newly remote workers are finding they prefer somewhere closer to family or fresh air. Others are giving up on leases they can’t afford, chasing opportunities in states that are reopening faster or heading back to hometowns.

    More at: https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-workers-can-live-anywhere-many-ask-why-do-i-live-here-11592386201?mod=hp_lead_pos11

  14. 3b says:

    Juice:We are expanding WFH, and I know of two other companies that are going almost all WFH. According to one , millennials are demanding it. Makes sense with young kids once schools are back.

    As for people flocking to North Jersey to escape NYC, I wonder how many of them realize how much of a financial disaster the state is in. I could definitely do winters in Fla, and then Europe. I would use the old country as a base.

  15. PumpkinFace says:

    As recent as a few weeks ago, you admitted you were wrong. Do you remember?
    There’s a difference between being a hypocrite, changing your mind and being batsh1t crazy.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    June 17, 2020 at 8:27 am
    How many years ago did I annoy this blog to no end that this would happen?

  16. Hold my beer says:

    My parents live in a 55 plus community. Every time someone on their street dies or gets moved to a nursing home my mom buys us something. Last year we got a ninja foodi. When the next door neighbor died we got plane tickets. She didn’t like the last one who died so all we got was a spiralizer.

  17. Juice Box says:

    PUMPS- To be clear my co-worker had negotiated part time WFH at my company previously. They wanted full time WFH (to move) and we would not allow it. Well they now got it now at another company due to covid19.

    It is going to change how companies retain good people. You can be sure of it, WFH is here to stay and is a bargaining chip now even with high unemployment.

    My office plans a soft opening soon. No cafeteria, we cannot have people eating and socializing! We are installing an alarm system that will warn of overcrowding in conference rooms and common areas. Crazy stuff, and nobody I mean nobody wants to go back to the office!

  18. Juice Box says:

    3b – My better half office in Manhattan is having a soft opening next week, volunteers only. I would say those young childless folks who have been stuck in a small apt in Manhattan for the last three months will go in to work just so they have a place to go. Who really wants to ride the subway these days? You can bet people are thinking twice about jamming into the 1,2,3 or the 4,5,6 during rush hour.

  19. The Great Pumpkin says:

    STFU you hater. Keep getting drunk off that hater-ade.

    I said I was wrong a few weeks ago because of the virus. Obviously, it’s not holding back the housing market.

    PumpkinFace says:
    June 17, 2020 at 8:55 am
    As recent as a few weeks ago, you admitted you were wrong. Do you remember?
    There’s a difference between being a hypocrite, changing your mind and being batsh1t crazy.

  20. Juice Box says:

    Pumps please why so upset? Perhaps you need to find a hobby while you are on your summer break from teaching. Have you considered Wing Suit Gliding?

  21. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Again, you guys can think WFH is becoming the norm, but I don’t agree.

    You guys can think a ton of people will leave populated areas for unpopulated areas, but again, I highly disagree. It’s like saying people in China will leave the high cost areas like Hong Kong, and move to the rural regions in the west because it’s cheaper and they can now work from home. Sure..

    Not everything is based on cost, for God’s sake. It’s based on desirability of the area. Sure, a place can be much cheaper, but that doesn’t make Ohio desirable to live in compared to the higher cost coasts. You guys just don’t get it. You only focus on costs.

    Like Florida, it’s not desirable year round. It’s good for a vacation home or retirement home. It’s not good for year round, especially if you are raising a family. That’s why it’s filled with rich retirees and pro athletes, and then poor people forced to live there year round and raise their kids in those conditions.

  22. 3b says:

    Juice: Agree no one wants to ride the subway or the PATH train, I understand the escape from NYC thing but running out to north Jersey and over paying, only to find out your job might be WFH is just stupid. Just waiting to see if that property tax surcharge bill gets passed.

  23. 3b says:

    Juice You know why.

  24. The Great Pumpkin says:

    3b lives in one of the best locations in the country, yet he pisses on it. For some reason, he rather be living in some county in Ohio as opposed to Bergen. Okay, different strokes for different folks, but understand most don’t think like you.

  25. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Donkey, it’s because I made great calls years in advance, and not one individual said good job. Instead, they double down on calling my calls bs.

    It has nothing to do with my Wayne property. Please get that in your head.

    3b says:
    June 17, 2020 at 9:29 am
    Juice You know why

  26. Juice Box says:

    Good job? You really need that?

  27. 3b says:

    Juice: You know why.

  28. The Great Pumpkin says:

    I was put down a long time for those calls. Instead of saying good job, I have a$$holes like pumpkin face calling me crazy. Hater indeed.

    Just imagine making some incredible calls 8 years out that nobody saw coming. No experts…nobody. Take a lot of heat for it, and then when it happens…the hate continues.

    It is what it is, but understand why I get mad.

    Juice Box says:
    June 17, 2020 at 9:36 am
    Good job? You really need that?

  29. Juice Box says:

    Pumps – you are saying you need an affirmation for a call about real estate that is due to a black swan?

  30. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Now this guy is crazy. And he thinks the yuan would supplant it. Sure..

    “Stephen Roach, Yale University senior fellow and former Morgan Stanley Asia chairman, has a warning for U.S. dollar bulls. The prominent economist says that the era of the U.S. buck may be coming to an end and is forecasting a 35% decline soon in the U.S. currency against its major rivals, citing increases in the nation’s deficit and dwindling savings.”

  31. PumpkinFace says:

    Just imaging making calls, declaring victory in advance, changing your mind, apologizing, changing back, declaring victory in advance again, changing your mind, preaching, never shutting up and NOT being called crazy.

    calls, calls, calls my calls, great calls, my calls, those calls calls calls calls

  32. The Great Pumpkin says:

    My calls have hit. I don’t have to defend it.

    Black swan event did not lead to demand in housing. Demographics did. The huge millennial demographic bloc wants to have kids and start families. There were never going to maintain their love of renting and the city once family came into the equation. Even with WFH, they are not going to leave metro areas for small populated areas. What is happening is that they are leaving the city core of said metro area to move to the outer areas of said metro area in search of space and good value to start their family. Aka spillover.

    All you are seeing is the natural flow of the market. Cities peaked, spillover happens. The market looks for value in said locations. Now the outer areas will drive up in price till a point where the stagnating city prices look like a bargain again. Then a new generation moves in and drives up the price of cities again. This is a cycle…

    Juice Box says:
    June 17, 2020 at 9:48 am
    Pumps – you are saying you need an affirmation for a call about real estate that is due to a black swan?

  33. Fast Eddie says:

    They can remove all stereotypes from products, all racial disparities visible to the eye, all monuments and cleanse everything in sight but it won’t change the fact that you need discipline, strong parental guidance in the home and a solid education, regardless of your color. Paint the issue any shade you want but it still will not move the needle in correcting the problem.

  34. Juice Box says:

    Pumps all of this gloom and doom has a lot of pundits uttering dollar crash. Some are even using the dreaded “D” word for depression or a deep u shaped recession that could eclipse anything we’ve seen since WWII, lasting for years and years.

    Bear in mind EU is worse off, China is anemic at best expecting growth of about 1%, and the rest of the world is no better even in Africa which is expected to be a growth vehicle for the next decade and beyond. If anything dollar will remain king, a weakened king it may be and it may drop in value due to the helicopter drops of cash into every corner of the financial system but none the less still the king.

  35. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Face,

    I thought the virus took out the economy, I was wrong. So was everyone else. It was a healthy recession that has recovered quickly and has cleaned up the job/business market pretty quickly. Now it’s back to producing and the family formation of the millennials is going to drive it with the housing market being the main driver.

  36. Juice Box says:

    Pumps – you should be on CNBC….Perhaps we can get you a guest spot on Mad Money?

  37. The Great Pumpkin says:

    African American poverty is the result of the welfare state. When you pay (reward) someone for not getting married and having babies, what do you think will happen? That’s why the African Americans were better off before the 60’s…the war on poverty did a lot of harm with good intentions.

    Want to help African Americans, or any race; make sure you have a nuclear family, value education, and make good choices. POW…you will most likely have a very good life. Not rocket science.

    Fast Eddie says:
    June 17, 2020 at 10:01 am
    They can remove all stereotypes from products, all racial disparities visible to the eye, all monuments and cleanse everything in sight but it won’t change the fact that you need discipline, strong parental guidance in the home and a solid education, regardless of your color. Paint the issue any shade you want but it still will not move the needle in correcting the problem.

  38. PuMpKIn lOgIC says:

    30% unemployment, poor job prospects for recent grads, highly uncertain financial implications for corporations both near and mid-term, coupled with stable home prices and rising taxes would not seem to point to driving new family formation and first time home buying.

    I’d classify the current housing dynamic more like a choppy churn from people re-calibrating lifestyle options, e.g. 2 income to 1 income; corporate job to side hustle; office to WFH; urban to suburban/rural.

    The Great Pumpkin says:
    June 17, 2020 at 10:02 am

    “Now it’s back to producing and the family formation of the millennials is going to drive it with the housing market being the main driver.”

  39. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Logic,

    It’s a cycle, there has to be pain (going through it now) to get to the beautiful part.

  40. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Do you see a double digit unemployment rate this time next year? If so, why?

  41. PuMpKIn lOgIC says:

    Rule #1 of PuMpKIN lOgIC:

    Any and all events can and will be construed as drivers that increase the value of real estate in Wayne, NJ.

  42. 30 year realtor says:

    I see double digit unemployment being a part of life for the next few years. The virus has not gone away. There is little hope of a vaccine in the short term and the public has let their guard down. Tick, tick, tick…

  43. grim says:

    I see double digit unemployment being a part of life for the next few years.

    Which would disproportionately impact youth and minorities.

  44. 30 year realtor says:

    Pumpkin,

    Please explain how a history teacher can be completely tone deaf to the impact of history on the black community in this country. Only a complete moron would blame Welfare for unemployment and other issues in the black community and completely discount hundreds of years of slavery and oppression.

  45. 3b says:

    30 From what I have been reading the last couple of days, it appears they are getting close to a vaccine.

  46. 3b says:

    30 Year As my Father an immigrant used to say if Black Americans were giving a chance after slavery ended, the racial discord in this country they would have done well like the immigrants did. He loved the USA, but could not understand why Black Americans were treated so poorly.

  47. 30 year realtor says:

    3b,

    I have read all sorts of conflicting information on vaccines. Even if there were a vaccine discovered this year, how long until it is widely administered and has an impact? This is not a short road.

  48. Juice Box says:

    30 year – There are several vaccines that are in Human Trials now. You can bet there will be mass produced vaccines this year, from several competing companies here in the USA, Asia and Europe. Last I checked there are 11 different ones in Human Phase 1, 2 and Phase 3 trials.

    China plans to win this race, as mentioned previously by me here they aren’t squeamish about injecting people with unproven Pharma.

    Reported in Bloomberg.

    “China is offering employees of some large state-run companies the option of being inoculated with two coronavirus vaccines currently in development, showing how quickly the country is moving to test the viability of its homegrown shots.

    Employees intending to travel overseas for work can volunteer to be administered vaccinations developed by China National Biotec Group Co. or CNBG, a subsidiary of Beijing-based Sinopharm Group Co., according to people familiar with the matter who asked not to be identified as the offer hasn’t been made public. The proposal was relayed to state-owned companies by the government body that oversees them, the people said.”

  49. 3b says:

    Pumpkinlogic: I agree choppy churn as far as house prices, escape from NYC, providing a temporary boost to prices. Running to buy and overpay already inflated prices and obscene taxes makes no sense in my opinion. Dust needs to settle. Why rush to buy in crowded north Jersey, only to find your job is WFH. In that case Hunterdon Co or South Monmouth Co. would be a better choice,price and tax wise.

  50. Nomad says:

    Eddie,

    If you not hear former mayor of Philadelphia Michael Nutter speaking about then current events in city pertaining to youth and poor behavior you will likely agree with what the Mayor says. Keep in mind he is a local kid who made good. Penn grad

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXwCOcBjpbg

  51. Bystander says:

    We are all going back to office yet I can’t enter Maine for vacation without proof of negative test 72 hours prior. That includes my two young kids..sure dumba##.

  52. chicagofinance says:

    An immunologist on Bloomberg radio yesterday accused the Chinese govt of attempting to infiltrate and sabotage other country’s efforts to develop a vaccine.

    Like a fresh spring breeze……

  53. grim says:

    China will beat us with a vaccine.

    China’s best prospects right now are attenuated coronavirus vaccines. These are like the original Polio virus vaccine.

    They contain live virus that has been modified to be less virulent, transmissive, infectious, etc.

    The US will not accept these vaccines anymore, because they risk exposing someone to coronavirus.

    China will take this risk, and will beat us to a vaccine.

  54. PuMpKIn lOgIC says:

    3b,

    Agreed. Another potential demographic are urban households that are still fortunate enough to have two incomes and who are now motivated to purchase a second home as a result of newfound WFH flexibility. However, I don’t think they’d be looking at first and second ring suburbs.

  55. Juice Box says:

    The fact that Biden does not have a massive massive lead right now speaks volumes about him as a candidate. It will not take much for him to lose ground here.

    138 days to go!

  56. Fast Eddie says:

    The fact that Biden does not have a massive massive lead right now speaks volumes about him as a candidate.

    Does he even know he’s running?

  57. Juice Box says:

    Grim yup and Sinovac is going strong, they now say it’s 100% effective.

    A little twist in Geo politics too. In the Americas they are planning on distributing in Brazil and possibly Mexico as new cases in China already very low the vaccine will need to be further tested overseas where the outbreak has not subsided. I am reading they have 2 million does ready and more to come by September.

  58. Jcer says:

    3b it was truly horrible how blacks were treated post slavery, no doubt it caused setbacks. But that being said post the 1960’s civil rights movement we should have seen an overall improvement of their status as a people and we did not. In fact we saw something quite peculiar, we saw a select few strive and achieve and the rest saw nothing but negative progress.

    So yes history of course plays a role but correlation is not causation. Overall as a people wealth went down and incarceration went up since the 1950’s for Black Americans. Pumpin’s intonation is problematic but the issues in the black community go deeper than slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, and historical discrimination.

    Open hostility to the traditional family unit, a disdain for education, and “acting white” are at the core of the economic disparities. Across all races education levels are associated with economic success. It is well established that single parent households are problematic it is very difficult for one parent to do it all, watch the children, nurture them, keep them on the right path, put money in the bank, and healthy food on the table this too transcends all. Our immigrant forefathers understood well the key to success was to integrate in society, this doesn’t mean to lose your culture but more to conform when interacting with American society at large. Dressing, speaking, and interacting in the manner typical of American society at large has traditionally been key to successfully engaging in economic activity outside of your ethnic group. I am friends with more than a few POC and they key thing that I see is they are all educated and value education for their children, they are all part of a stable family unit which doesn’t necessarily mean a traditional nuclear family(divorce is common but doesn’t have to result in broken children!) but there is parent engagement and involvement from both parents and they tend to go to work in conservative professional clothing and speak the same proper colloquial English their peers do.

    Pumpkin is right the war on poverty has been devastating for all poor people alike. Instead of helping these people advance it has keep them in a perpetual state of poverty. Hand outs and government housing policies centralizing impoverished people together resulted in burned out cities, crime, suffering, and poverty. A lack of accountability and self responsibility is very common among those in poverty. The blame game/victimization is key to this and doesn’t help, again poor people of all races succumb to this. Unfortunately for blacks they have hundreds of years subjugation to look at that they can point to as the reason for their predicament, for their own good it needs to stop. White people will not call them out on this for fear of being labeled a racist but certain behaviors result in certain outcomes and it has literally nothing to do with systemic racism /white privilege, etc, not to say that it doesn’t exist to some extent but it is not “driving the bus” so to speak, it and it alone does not explain the outcomes. Furthermore I’d surmise it’s impact is de minimus given the affirmative action and diversity hiring programs out there.

  59. Fast Eddie says:

    So, the Covid thing might actually wane by the November elections as it seems most private (ahem…) companies are chomping at the bit and looking to produce a massive, medical breakthrough in record time. The only thing we have then is the petulant children riots and I don’t think they can carry enough momentum until November. Then again, maybe we should hush up and let them continue to destroy their binkies, rattles and cribs which will enrage the productive class even more. Goodness knows, they’re silently lining up now; a prolonged tantrum will only fuel the center-right offensive.

  60. 3b says:

    Jcer: I agree those are all valid points, and have to be addressed. I don’t know why and how those points you note happened and how they can be addressed. They need to be part of the conversation, but in the current environment they won’t be.

  61. 3b says:

    Juice: and in other news China and India are going at in the Himalayas, and North Korea is blowing stuff up on the DMZ!!

  62. Nomad says:

    JCer, thats basically what former Philly mayor Nutter said in the video I posted to Eddie.

    Looks like NJ is crushing it:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-17/suburban-n-j-homes-headed-for-biggest-price-increase-since-2005

  63. 30 year realtor says:

    Covid wane by November? How? Even if there is a vaccine, how long to inoculate the population of this country or the world? All the experts are pointing to a 2nd wave. Are all the experts wrong?

  64. joyce says:

    Come on, 30 year.

    Are all the experts wrong?

    I doubt all are saying exactly the same thing. But more importantly, the “experts” do not have a great track record. This is not to say we should ignore, disregard or do the opposite… but as time goes by, we see concrete examples of the experts changing their mind and letting their, or others, politics influence their comments and recommendations.

  65. Fast Eddie says:

    Covid wane by November? How?

    The media will have a new crisis to ‘report’.

  66. Fast Eddie says:

    Hey, what about the children dying in cages at the border? Can we fire up that crisis again?

  67. joyce says:

    Fast Eddie,
    You know the government (ahem…) funds some research, right?

  68. homeboken says:

    Pumpkin says: “Not everything is based on cost, for God’s sake.”

    Spoken like a true public employee. Way to tow the union line.

  69. JCer says:

    Nomad, on your original question. I’ve done WFH extensively, it was probably one of the key reasons I took my current gig at the dysfunctional organization I am in. I have total flexibility, If I wanted to go work from Florida for a month I could, I’ve done total work from home for 6 months before. It is harder to design the optimal solution, when we WFH we are more likely to do things in a silo because consensus is harder to achieve. It would not be hard to find another job, salary is always the kicker, people hired into full time remote work are paid less. It is much more difficult to prove your value in a totally remote setting, salary will suffer that is the truth. The rate of pay especially 2012-2015 was good, there was a lot of opportunity with the banks to get paid. It has slowed considerably which is why I am still where I am.

    It seems like google, amazon and it’s ilk have hired a lot of folks I’ve worked with or have worked for me in the past. Tech companies will pay for tech talent, no one else is. People like me who straddle techno-functional roles, are not as valuable or useful to tech companies. The banks and related companies still need us and thus treat and pay us better, my wife is in a similar role at GS. The pure technical folks are running for the exits as they have put the screws to them with offshore workers.

    I fully expect in the next 12-18 months AWS, Google, and Microsoft will begin to move more aggressively into the fintech space. That will be the next opportunity for a big pay day as more and more banks look to move away from technology because they aren’t good at it and it costs a lot of money. Right now the focus has been on selling the existing technical solutions to banks and fintech as they are an attractive customer, at some point they will begin to compete with fintech and start marketing PAAS, SAAS for finance and fintech at which point techno-functional expertise has big value.

    My wife is pretty tied to her office and is the NYC functional head for her department so she has no option of remote work. But even if she wasn’t I would not move to flyover country, there are some good places but they are not particularly cheap. I’ve been to Indianapolis and besides a very clean airport it is boring as sin and again to live in the kind of home we like it is not THAT cheap. Truth be told my wife is from MI and our house there would cost at least as much if not more, the only thing for certain is the property taxes would be less. The weather in the midwest is not super desirable either and unless you are up by the great lakes you are pretty far from recreational activities. For the lifestyle I would need to be coastal, even if that meant great lakes but also prefer a place that is drive-able to skiing and not on a garbage pile…..

  70. AP says:

    When George Floyd was lynched in broad view of the entire civilized world, it became just a bit harder to dismiss and sweep under the rug the many glaring abuses of power by agents of the State that so many citizens, not only Black, are subject to in their everyday lives.

    Glad these petulant children are at least having a shout at it.

    Old chestnuts about the inferiority of Black culture in America when compared to “our virtuous and brave forefathers” are just tiresome, unreadable, claptrap

  71. Fast Eddie says:

    joyce,

    Yeah, I am aware of it but private ‘incentive’ (ahem… ) is a real motivator! And joyce, don’t tell anyone but I sometimes cheat in the store with my mask and lower it just below my bottom lip to steal a breath or two! Shhh!!! It’s between you and me!

  72. LurksMcGee says:

    10:10am

    The fact this guy is a teacher is scary. Even worse if he’s a history teacher.

  73. Fast Eddie says:

    Glad these petulant children are at least having a shout at it.

    I’m not surprised the leftists interpret the shooting a cop in the back of the head at point blank range a shout out.

  74. homeboken says:

    Pumpkin – Given your stance on the importance of family and education, I would like to know your stance on school choice?

    My position is that anyone that espouses the line that there is systemic racism in the country and is working against school choice, is a gigantic hypocrite.

  75. The Great Pumpkin says:

    You know who I learned this from? Thomas Sowell. He is one of my favorite economists. He tells you like it is. He is black, therefore no racism involved with thoughts. So are you going to call him out as a racist for his logical thoughts on the issue?

    Admit it, you don’t agree with me because you are a partisan team player. Good for you, but don’t push that on me.

    Btw, Thomas Sowell started out as a Marxist.

    Give this video a watch to see how wrong your beliefs are.

    https://youtu.be/U7hmTRT8tb4

    30 year realtor says:
    June 17, 2020 at 10:51 am
    Pumpkin,

    Please explain how a history teacher can be completely tone deaf to the impact of history on the black community in this country. Only a complete moron would blame Welfare for unemployment and other issues in the black community and completely discount hundreds of years of slavery and oppression.

  76. The Great Pumpkin says:

    They don’t understand. They only look at upfront cost, not the overall picture. So they can go live in Indianapolis, and be happy with how much they are saving, but fail to realize how much it impacts their quality life.

    If an area is dense and expensive, it’s because people want to live there.

    If a place is not that populated and cheap, chances are, no one wants to live there. Quality of life blows.

    JCer says:
    June 17, 2020 at 1:15 pm

  77. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Go cry me a river. Scary? Keep judging people from your self made pedestal.

    LurksMcGee says:
    June 17, 2020 at 1:18 pm
    10:10am

    The fact this guy is a teacher is scary. Even worse if he’s a history teacher.

  78. 3b says:

    Homeboken: I believe in school choice. Schools should be made to compete for students, and parents should not be held hostage to a local school board. The current set up is a monopoly.

  79. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Has to bring his jealousy into it by bringing up the Union. If the union is so good, go get the job, who’s stopping you?!

    What I was talking about with “cheap,” if cheap was the sole focus, why in the world would any business set up shop anywhere where land is expensive? How does nyc become the business leader location in America on expensive dirt?

    How is it that our most successful business communities (silicone valley/nyc) are located in the most expensive areas of the country? How? Cost is not the deciding factor.

    So apply the same thing to human beings. The cheap areas are never going to turn into the most desirable place to live. Cheap cost is nowhere near enough of a magnet to get people to move there. Even with WFH, they won’t move there. They will still live in the current most desirable areas to live in the country. That’s the coasts..in metro areas.

    homeboken says:
    June 17, 2020 at 1:12 pm
    Pumpkin says: “Not everything is based on cost, for God’s sake.”

    Spoken like a true public employee. Way to tow the union line.

  80. Phoenix says:

    “The current set up is a monopoly.” With extorted property tax and many incompetent untouchables who when they make mistakes cost the taxpayers even more money. Plus, after all you pay in taxes, you are still 200 BILLION DOLLARS in debt to them.
    Ouch!
    Ahh, just dump it on the youth. Long as I get mine!

  81. The Great Pumpkin says:

    So what happens when all the bad kids want to go to the good school? Right, now everyone is worst off as the bad kids ruin another school.

    Kick out bad students. Make education a privilege, not a guarantee. So you have to earn a certain GPA to stay in school. Now the problem, the 30 year/lurks McGee type throw their hands into a fizzy because the bad kids won’t get an education. They claim it is not fair to exclude them. So you can’t ever fix the problem. A lot of the african American students are the bad ones because they have one parent. So are you going to start kicking out these kids from one parent or zero parent households for not taking care of their kids? Once you kick them out, they will end up in jail, and 30 year will cry that the system failed them.

    So what’s the answer? You got me, too many complainers. Anything you do is wrong, they will complain. So how do you fix schools? You can’t under these conditions. You certainly can’t with school choice, just playing musical chairs, not fixing anything.

    3b says:
    June 17, 2020 at 1:51 pm
    Homeboken: I believe in school choice. Schools should be made to compete for students, and parents should not be held hostage to a local school board. The current set up is a monopoly.

  82. Phoenix says:

    One parent households Pumpy. Focus on Gender, not on race.

    “Traditional gender stereotypes would have you believe that women are the ones who are more eager to settle down and get married. But according to the data, there’s another surprising element of marriage that women are more likely to initiate, too: divorce. Yes, study after study has proven that women initiate divorce far more than men do these days. According to 2015 research from the American Sociological Association (ASA), women initiate almost 70 percent of divorces.”

  83. Juice Box says:

    Pumps – gonna say it only once “cancel culture”. You should check yourself before you wreck yourself….

  84. Phoenix says:

    You don’t think this group is going to help your kid do homework after school do you?

    https://bit.ly/2YHqxGR

  85. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Juice,

    I am only taking up the logic of Thomas Sowell. He backs his position with logic/data, not emotion.

    So called liberals don’t really want to help. They talk a big game and point the finger, yet do nothing but hurt the people they claim to help.

    Juice Box says:
    June 17, 2020 at 2:16 pm
    Pumps – gonna say it only once “cancel culture”. You should check yourself before you wreck yourself….

  86. 30 year realtor says:

    How are those Boogaloo Boys doing? Eddie, how many Hawaiian shirts do you own?

  87. leftwing says:

    “I have read all sorts of conflicting information on vaccines. Even if there were a vaccine discovered this year, how long until it is widely administered and has an impact? This is not a short road.”

    “Covid wane by November? How? Even if there is a vaccine, how long to inoculate the population of this country or the world? All the experts are pointing to a 2nd wave. Are all the experts wrong?”

    Everything, and especially COVID/vaccine, must be viewed through the lens of November 3.

    It’s why the government is balls deep in the vaccine development process with the Rx companies in the aptly named Project Warp Speed which will be manufacturing prior to the end of clinicals. DJT will have something to jam into the arms of someone before election day.

    Other side of the ledger, MSM and the Left will ride second wave or any vulnerabilities for all its worth.

    Neither Left nor Right gives a flying fcuk about you or science in this process, it’s all about clickbait and being the loudest voice going into 11/3.

  88. LurksMcGee says:

    1:51

    So its not scary/disturbing that a teacher would say Black people were better off before the Civil Rights Act? I don’t need a pedestal to see how strange that sounds and that this type of thinking in the back of your head could influence young minds.

  89. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Don’t inflict your bias on me. I stated the “war on poverty.” That was the 60’s. Look at how much harm that did? Did it fix anything?

    You fix all the issues in America by placing a priority on two parents raising the child, a focus/appreciation on education, and good choices. Watch magically how much lives improve when people are forced to take care of their children and forced to help educate that child.

    You keep obsessing over race, and I’m here giving you the answers to the problems you want fixed….yet, you keep ignoring it, and focuses on racism.

    LurksMcGee says:
    June 17, 2020 at 2:56 pm
    1:51

    So its not scary/disturbing that a teacher would say Black people were better off before the Civil Rights Act? I don’t need a pedestal to see how strange that sounds and that this type of thinking in the back of your head could influence young minds.

  90. 30 year realtor says:

    “Sowell has argued for more than three decades that race-based social policies such as affirmative action actually inhibit opportunities for African Americans. Cultural differences, he concludes, rather than racial discrimination, largely account for differences in socioeconomic advancement among racial groups and thus are the principal cause of inequality.”

    My take is that Sowell is right about cultural differences. Pumpkin, you are the history teacher. Cultures are based in their history. What is the history of African Americans? Can we agree that their history impacted their culture? Their culture impacts choices. And a living in a country where at any given moment about a third of young black males are either in prison or under supervision impacts the likelihood of 2 parent households.

    Next we can discuss whether a country that incarcerated or supervises a third of it’s population of young, black, males is systemically racist.

  91. Phoenix says:

    At most, 5 percent of the world has had Covid. 80% is the minimum necessary to have herd immunity.
    If there is no second wave, there may never be.
    Then you are just stuck with this kind of like the flu where it never really goes away but mutates over time.
    Frontline PBS did it’s usual good job on a video that is online right now about Covid.
    Guess it will keep picking off boomer after boomer.

  92. Phoenix says:

    America’s history is full of looting, slavery, and violence.
    Why is anyone surprised that this continues to happen.
    It’s America at it’s core.

  93. The Great Pumpkin says:

    30,

    Absolutely, it played a role. Do we just sit here and dwell on it, or make choices to improve?

    As Thomas Sowell explains, you can’t change the past, you can only change the choices you make. He dwells on three things. One, both parents have to be parents. He points to data on family units to support this. The more time and attention given, the better off. Second, value education. He points to the trove of data that shows who escapes poverty; people that value education and use it as a tool to escape. Third, make good choices. Don’t make bad choices that get you in trouble and hurt your future self.

    It’s not rocket science. The guy is right. This is how we improve life for all poverty stricken individuals, not just African Americans. This is how you make America great. By being parents to your child, instilling the value of education, and making good choices.

  94. AP says:

    Didn’t realize petulant children shot guns. Mixed metaphor much?

    Apologies if I was provocative, but it hurts to see posters here completely shutting off their compassion neuropathways when it comes out-group folks.

    Don’t want to see a boot stomping on a human face for eternity, is all.

    In gardening news, fresh shipment from uncle Jim’s worm farm. This stuff does wonders and I should have started it years ago.

  95. ExEssex says:

    3:20 you literally have no clue as to the violence in the American past against African Americans. You. Have. No. Clue. And you teach history.
    I’m wondering about your effectiveness.

  96. The Great Pumpkin says:

    I want to make it clear, I don’t support racism. My sister’s best friend till 6th grade (she moved) was black (islander). My parents never taught us to hate based on skin color.

    Was the country formed on slavery, yes. Was it racist, yes. Did it harm African Americans, absolutely. Do I apply that to the world today? No.

    I’m serious. I can’t give examples in my every day life where I see racism anymore. I know racism exists( and always will for a small percentage of the population), but I don’t think it’s holding all African Americans back today. (Police violence is not racism, it’s bad cops). So besides police violence, what can you do to help African Americans with racism? How is it now holding their life back and what can you do to help? I’m being serious, can you give me examples? I don’t see it in my day to day life, but maybe I’m white privileged.

  97. homeboken says:

    As plainly as I can say it:

    If you support BLM or think there is systemic racism that originates from the historical bad treatment of minorities, then you must support school choice.

    There are a million different ideas to counter “systemic racism”. Enact school choice and we can put a floor under the future generations immediately. I am talking about Sept 2020. FYI – My kids school is 90%+ white. I am positive we could assimilate 5 kids per grade right now from another district. That’s 25-20 kids per elementary school. 2,000 elementary schools in NJ. Let’s say the bottom 1/3 empty out. that leaves over 1,400 schools to take in transfers. The math works.

    If that means that some city schools fail and lose all enrollment. Good. That is just one of the many positive outcomes that will come out of it.

  98. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Jersey seems to be very progressive, and I just don’t see how racism exists here.

    For example, you might call them failing schools, but I work in one. They get a great education if they want it. How is it the schools fault if some kids don’t care and choose to fail?

    Look at Asbury. Gets the most funding per pupil in the state. That’s better than the white suburban schools.

    I might be biased, so maybe don’t see it, but how is racism holding back anyone in nj?

  99. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Home,

    Close down schools? We don’t have enough space as it is.

    Why not just play mix and match with all existing schools? Only problem; transportation costs would be insane.

  100. ExEssex says:

    The schools will probably stagger classes.
    Kid coming a couple of days a week and going virtual the rest of the time.
    Might work well for some learners.

  101. Hold my beer says:

    Dallas county had new 413 covid cases today. A new one day high. First time over 400.

    https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/dallas-county-reports-413-cases-covid-19-hitting-record-daily-cases/287-e304a9f2-6432-404c-9077-98847093cc95

    So many people do not wear masks in this area, even the Governor was complaining about it.

    Dallas county was down to 170’s for new cases a day in early May.

  102. No One says:

    Bill Clinton once said this analysis is essentially right:
    https://www.manhattan-institute.org/losingground
    About the Book
    This classic book serves as a starting point for any serious discussion of welfare reform. Losing Ground argues that the ambitious social programs of the 1960s and 1970s actually made matters worse for its supposed beneficiaries, the poor and minorities. Charles Murray startled readers by recommending that we abolish welfare reform, but his position launched a debate culminating in President Clinton’s proposal “to end welfare as we know it.”

  103. No One says:

    Pumpkin,
    What I find very interesting is that with this growth of people trained in college in the major of “race studies” what we have really seen is a rise in blaming of other races, and a rise in assigning ever more importance to the topic of race. This is quite self-serving for those trained in that field, and it has turned into a political strategy as well.

    With the increased popularity of blaming societal ills on “structural racism” one of the most potentially racist things going on in government today is the way that government schools are tied to street address while being run by public unions generally uninterested in improving customer outcomes or customer service. And in NJ where spending is mandated to be equal, the unequal outcomes still clearly exist.

    It seems to me that some sub-cultures tend to value some things more highly than others. Chinese Americans tend to emphasize education quite highly, partly because of Confucian traditions and because in imperial China exams could be a gateway into government jobs. Jewish people have also been said to emphasize education, savings, and finding higher-paying careers, (doctors and lawyers). Is it possible that other sub-cultures could tend to de-emphasize education and self-control? J.D. Vance thought so in his memoir Hillbilly Elegy, identifying weakness in the culture of Appalachia in which he grew up. But those people are white, so criticism is allowed…

  104. Walking says:

    maybe this is a one off situation, but I was talking to my Hispanic in laws. Very strong democratic voters, never trumpers and in retirement. After seeing events from the last few weeks and watching events on Spanish news media, they are sadly saying they will have to vote trump. Not sure if its the age or culture but disrespect of law and order and lawlessness has turned them away from democrats and they see Biden as weak. Still early in the cycle but it will be interesting to see if this holds up.

  105. Hold my beer says:

    Walking

    We had protests and rights in the 60s and we wound up with Nixon.

  106. Juice Box says:

    Circus is in town.

    1st officer Rolfe who murdered the drunk driver murder charge with perhaps death penalty, sure charge him but the second cop?

    https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/da-paul-howard-expected-make-announcement-possible-charges-rayshard-brooks-shooting/EZ5T5RIXTRHO3O5LYBX6W3VN5U/

  107. Walking says:

    Hold, I don’t see a lot of polling of the Hispanic vote for 2020, but they are a 13% of the pie. Will be interesting how some swing states turn out with this.

  108. 3b says:

    What the Democrats don’t understand is that many minority groups are extremely socially conservative, and have more in common with the Evangelicals than the liberal progressive groups. As well I have heard some incredibly racist comments from one minority group about others.

  109. Juice Box says:

    Beer – History does Rhyme and fear will play into this election.

    I don’t own a firearm, never wanted to own one. I have had two guns pointed in my face. Once when I was young by the local kid who’s Dad was a cop and was careless with his lock box, son got in and aimed it at everyone trying to be cool. Nobody got shot ended with him getting his ass beat by Dad.

    Second time was in NYC. I was 18 and being robbed by three men from 52nd precinct in the Bronx, told me I was dead if I did not hand it all over, which I did,an empty wallet and some car keys.

    1st one is now a fireman and thankfully not a cop. I would put odds that the three others are dead or locked up for a long time.

    Walking has made a point about lawlessness, if the Police aren’t going to respond, things will get much much worse before they get better. That is the nature of man……

  110. AP says:

    J.D. Vance’s book has received it’s share of criticism. This comparison does not hold.

    The problem with shifting the narrative from race to culture is that it equally makes no sense, for several reasons. Social ills are traced back to specific conditions and factors.

    Appalachia was hit hard by globalization. Follow the money.

    Black culture not only is incredibly healthy, a history of survival against all odds, it is a key, outsized factor to the formations of American culture itself.

    There is no American culture per se without Black culture as a key component of its DNA. Let’s start from there.

    Every master group always assigns cultural ills to the subjugated class, look to the 20th century for terrible examples. Not good company to keep.

  111. Juice Box says:

    Not mentioned here in the MSM at least CNN, and still no excuse for his death.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8431801/Rayshard-Brooks-probation-faced-going-prison-charged-DUI.html

  112. 3b says:

    AP: I agree and would go further and say the only real American culture is Black culture. Most of what is defined as quintessential American culture has it roots in Black America. And the south I would define as having an identifiable culture which also of course is part of Black America.

  113. JCer says:

    Juice, this whole thing is a circus. Even charging the first officer is ridiculous and bowing to the mob. Brooks fired the taser against an armed officer of the law, case law is very clear a taser can incapacitate the officer leaving the officers firearm vulnerable, lethal force is warranted in such situations.

    The pattern of stupid behavior is appalling, why if you are on probation are you driving drunk? This is not racism, this is not “black lives matter”, this is a pronounced lack of personal responsibility. The person responsible for the death of Rayshard Brooks is Rayshard Brooks. He took the drinks, got behind the wheel, fell asleep in the Wendy’s drive thru, got into a physical altercation while being arrested, stole the taser and pointed it at the officer. No one else did it, he did it, the consequences of his actions were fatal, the officer followed his training, this is not at all like the George Floyd situation.

  114. AP says:

    Sounds corny but we all play a part. Gotta have each other’s back when it counts.

  115. joyce says:

    the officer followed his training

    Indict the trainers

  116. The Great Pumpkin says:

    On the topic of inequality and race, Sowell said the same thing. He said go to any location in the world, if the culture is based on backwards economies, they are poor. He says race has nothing do with it. He then used Appalachia as an example. He said they are the poorest county in America. He goes on to say if racism is responsible for poverty, how is it that the poorest county in America is white. How can this be? Maybe it has more to do with where you choose to live and what you choose to value.

    Example: Hillbilly bob is white. His family has been in America since the 1800’s. How is it that he and his family are still so poor after living here for generations? Immigrants do it in the first generation, so what’s the problem? It’s choices and values. Bob comes from a family that has chose to live in an area (Appalachia) with limited economic opportunities. No one in Bob’s family has graduated from high school, never mind college. Bob is screwed because his family is stuck in a culture and area that holds people back. No one is telling them to continue this, but they do, now why? Who is to blame for this but themselves? Immigrants leave countries for economic opportunities, these people can’t even leave a town or county to better themselves. It’s sad.

    “J.D. Vance thought so in his memoir Hillbilly Elegy, identifying weakness in the culture of Appalachia in which he grew up.”

  117. JCer says:

    Joyce, a taser is used to incapacitate a person. When the person on the other end of the taser is armed, that taser is reasonably treated as a deadly threat. No one wants to see anyone needlessly killed, but at the same time Law enforcement has a right to protect themselves. What if that officer were your son or husband or father? If people could avoid escalating these scenarios by going peacefully when arrested we’d see fewer cases like this.

  118. The Great Pumpkin says:

    So when you can’t blame race for the poverty in Appalachia, what can we blame? Individual choices. That’s what.

    We live in America people. You can do or be whatever you want. Only thing holding you back is excuses. Think about it..

  119. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Exactly, get up and do something about it, follow the money.

    That’s bitch sh!t to sit there and cry about it. What does that solve? Nothing. Excuses might make you feel better, but they are utterly useless.

    “Appalachia was hit hard by globalization. Follow the money.”

  120. The Great Pumpkin says:

    So individual choice plays no role in our lives…either master or servant. Save me the bs.

    I am neither, and I am enjoying life through self improvement.

    “Every master group always assigns cultural ills to the subjugated class, look to the 20th century for terrible examples. Not good company to keep.”

  121. Phoenix says:

    If police officers could avoid lying in many scenarios by telling the truth when situations arise we’d see fewer cases like this.

  122. JCer says:

    Yes Pumpkin personal responsibility….Victim culture is to blame, blacks in America are demoralized so much so I find blacks from other countries tend to have far fewer problems achieving success. One should go to where one has a reasonable chance of success.

    I blame liberals for this, we need to get past it, I don’t care about your guilt, just stop it lets focus on the future. The more Americans who succeed the better. Sowell is on point, his argument follows a similar line of thought. People need to feel they succeeded based on their merits, things like affirmative action are actually damaging to the psyche of black folks, nothing like telling a people they cannot succeed on their own without lowering standards, its demeaning. I’m sorry but it is some racist sh*t, let them compete and level the playing field, people need to tell their kids they can do whatever they set their mind to.

  123. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Can we all agree on this: if your kid doesn’t have this, they will be at a disadvantage under a capitalist economic system.

    1) Both parents raise the child/stable home environment

    2) value education, hard work, and sacrifice

    3) make good choices that keep you out of trouble

    There it is, folks. Key to a better life. Follow these 3 steps. Please explain how race or income level play any role in this? What is stopping anyone from making these choices but themselves?

    I don’t know why a good portion of the population doesn’t follow this. They make bad choices, piss on education and hard work, and abandon their children..then they have the nerve to blame others for their miserable life. Own it. You made it.

  124. Bystander says:

    I don’t you think Blump hit any of those during his upbringing.

    1. Dad in jail
    2. Lied about three degrees
    3. Overpaid for a highway house.

  125. AP says:

    So I’m actually a big proponent of self reliance and even indulge in a bit of positive thinking myself at times.

    That has no bearing on this discussion though, because these are two completely different levels of analysis.

    Personal beliefs, attitudes, resilience, X factor, these are all real things in an individual level. We are talking about folks displaying similar levels of these things having very different experiences while interacting with the State. Different levels of access to places and resources. Same “good person”, different treatment.

    Regarding the importance of a nurturing family to both individual and societal well being is more than clear. What’s seemingly less clear is the impact of specific policies in generating these outcomes. I encourage you to investigate this.

  126. Bystander says:

    Blumpy’s family rule #4 and #5:

    4. Trick your Babcia into giving their house away on the cheap.

    5. Marry up while girl is young and foolish.

    Poor babs. Always felt bad for her.

  127. Phoenix says:

    “I don’t know why a good portion of the population doesn’t follow this. They make bad choices, piss on education and hard work, and abandon their children..then they have the nerve to blame others for their miserable life. Own it. You made it.”

    Sometimes things are beyond your control Pumpy. You just don’t get it.
    Maybe try for a PhD- perhaps then you will see the light.

  128. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Example of this happening in nj?

    I know connections matter, but that has nothing to do with race.

    “We are talking about folks displaying similar levels of these things having very different experiences while interacting with the State. Different levels of access to places and resources. Same “good person”, different treatment.”

  129. AP says:

    Some people may ask, is this really true? Is a “well behaved” Black person really in danger when going about their everyday business?

    There I recommend looking at the hard data. There’s research showing that, yes, this does happen.

    That’s is not to demonize anyone, even those in power, who are human after all, but to face the fact that this is our reality in 2020 and it won’t change by itself.

  130. JCer says:

    AP, what is the data, again to Pump’s point Thomas Sowell does a really good job analyzing the data he doesn’t see this conclusion. Truth be told you are more at risk of so, so, so many normal accidents than becoming a victim of the police. If by danger do mean of becoming a victim of crime, because residents in certain urban areas have ridiculously high levels of victimization. Go look at the crime stats for Irvington, NJ, any honest person living there is at serious risk. Again that is not to say all is fair and equal, I acknowledge there are incidents, saying black people’s well being is at risk when they go out every day is really stretching it.

  131. AP says:

    https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/leo16_fryer.pdf

    First page of results on Google. The data is there. Trust me and verify for yourself.

  132. Phoenix says:

    “Some people may ask, is this really true? Is a “well behaved” Black person really in danger when going about their everyday business?”

    When a white woman calls the police and tells them that an “African American” man was threatening her “life”- when in reality he is telling her to not come near him, there is a problem. This woman’s lie could have cost him his life, and she knew exactly what she was doing. Has she been prosecuted yet for a false allegation? Nope. Never will.

    Women do this with other races as well, including whites. It’s a control issue.

  133. AP says:

    JCer, in respect to your point about the raw statistical probably of a Black individual being a victim of police, to use your expression, I object to it on several grounds.

    One, it’s heartless. These are your friends and neighbors.

    Second, the difference is between illegal/criminal acts, accidents, disease, and the actions of the State. That is the crux of the matter. The constitution assures equal protection. End of story.

  134. JCer says:

    AP, the paper itself acknowledges the issues with the data, the sources are limited and non-ideal the author tries very hard to build a model of controls but the scope of the data is problematic. The paper indicates the data does not bear out any disparity in shootings or fatal encounters. As I have indicated I do not dispute DWB, people being subject to profiling thus having more encounters with the police. Basing use of force based on data from stop and frisk is more than questionable, it is a practice that basically codified racial profiling as an official procedure.

    Pick your poison, pick your battles. We can discuss, we can try to fix we should try to resolve the problems but riots are totally unwarranted. Again look at victims of crime in urban areas, the impact of urban crime is 1000x greater than the actions of the police. Whatever the solution is it needs to balance both fairness in interactions with law enforcement and reducing the pain bore by victims of crime. If you lived in an urban are you might understand, not only do people have to worry about robbery, gangs and drugged out people acting crazy, they also deal with the fact that all services and retail stores are substandard as crime scares away your best operators and increases costs for everyone.

    You shifting the argument, the paper you provide as evidence does not support your statement. It doesn’t support the notion of danger, it does support the notion of racism and unfairness both points I don’t necessarily disagree with, I do question the methodology a bit. One of the big issues I have is a focus on a false narrative, that is without merit rather than the profiling and more pervasive issues impacting people.

    Pheonix or it could go the other way and the cop could shoot her….Justine Damond. In general Pheonix you are right when a women calls the cops and says a man is threatening her, the man will probably catch a beating regardless of race…..it is an issue with the police, they are ignorant of the law and tend to think they dole out justice…..again not the way the system is supposed to work. I think we can all agree that policing and criminal justice reform are needed it’s just not a black/white issue, but rather a problem for all of us. As left has indicated force has been used against him, I’ve had force used against me and we are rich and white. Cops in general have watched one too many westerns and think they are the law in this town…

  135. AP says:

    So glad you approaches it this way, because this is a common misreading of this paper.

    The author had published several papers papers showing a disparity in use of force, this one included.

    This paper explicitly confirms increased use of physical restrain, humiliating and humiliating procedures. It does stop short of linking shootings to ethnicity, but it does illustrate the point I was hoping to support.

    There are many others and the preponderance of research is actually quite clear today.

  136. Fabius Maximus says:

    Watch to the end for the last four words. Needs a #MicDrop tagline

    https://twitter.com/mayaharris_/status/1273395754095296514

  137. Phoenix says:

    Informative Covid documentary.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4la0YzxFZ4

  138. Phoenix says:

    “it is an issue with the police, they are ignorant of the law and tend to think they dole out justice”

    Jcer, it’s not just the police, and not primarily the police. It’s the “so called” justice system. Why did the justice system fail to prosecute Central Park Amy Cooper? The evidence is there-but no response from them. Outrage on social media was extreme-but not a peep from those whose job it is to convict people of things like this.
    Let’s not forget how many escaped justice when there was no camera to be found, and no one able to watch Jeffrey Epstein in 1 Police Plaza. That is not even a conspiracy, everyone knows how the justice system allowed so many to escape by Jeff’s “misfortune.”
    I believe the USA should go with tribunals instead of having single judges make decisions. Honestly I don’t believe that most are fit for the bench. If they were such good lawyers or not dirty and connected they would be in private practice.

  139. Fabius Maximus says:

    Hey Gary,

    When did the Greatness end for you?

    https://megaphone.upworthy.com/p/people-who-voted-for-trump?

  140. Two wrongs don’t make a right says:

    AP,

    Can you agree that the Atlanta case is an example of wrong. Did the cops treat him badly before he went crazy? Yes, insanity is stealing a weapon from a a cop and pointing it at them.

    Mob mentality now has this cop arrested and charged with murder. That’s wrong. You know it.

  141. Fabius Maximus says:

    Will throw this into the race discussion.

    What I have seen here so far is that a lot of posters in here, STILL DON’T GET IT!

    https://scoop.upworthy.com/a-black-harvard-student-shared-a-powerful-photo-that-will-challenge-how-you-see-people-of-color

  142. Not Fab says:

    Lost in the noise for some random act of racism, is the fact that this is one of the largest classes of Black Students in Harvard Law School history. Focus on the one negative idiot instead of the big picture.

    “It was particularly special as the students, part of the Class of 2021, comprised one of the largest classes of Black students in Harvard Law School’s history. While most folks were full of praise, there was one LinkedIn user, Gene Smith, who shared the post and commented, “Looks like gang members to me.””

  143. Fabius Maximus says:

    Not Fab,

    This picture for me, won the week.

    https://www.vogue.com/article/record-number-african-american-female-graduates-west-point

    After all they went through to get there they had to get past the Donnie Recall of the Grads for his photo Op, they made the best of it!

  144. JCer says:

    Two wrongs don’t make a right, I wouldn’t even say the cops treated him poorly. Drunk driving is serious, and this guy was drunk enough to fall asleep in a drive thru and would not move even when approached by a Wendy’s employee. The police acted as police would act in the situation and Rayshard Brooks was fine until they tried to arrest him. Pointing a weapon at a cop, even a “non-lethal” one is incredibly dangerous, I’d bet the most common outcome is you get shot.

    Phoenix, the criminal justice system is a totally different animal, they know the law. Most cops cannot give a good testimony in a traffic court case, they are so ignorant of how even traffic laws are written. The rank and file tend to have a very poor understanding of the law. The issue with criminal justice is the cost and difficulty of prosecuting someone who potentially has a good defense. If Amy Cooper were prosecuted it would just cost money and she’d get it tossed, it’s not a particularly strong case and she most likely can afford a good attorney. Prosecutors use a fair amount of judgement in how and what they will prosecute, there aren’t resources to prosecute what you will likely lose.

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