Commercial property tax appeals slam NJ budgets

From the Courier News:

Piscataway budgets $500G for tax appeals

The township will set aside at least a half million dollars to pay for tax appeals in 2011 as property owners continue to contest their assessments amid a depressed real-estate market.

Mayor Brian Wahler said 99 percent of the cases involve corporate tax appeals. “There’s still a heavy vacancy rate,” Wahler said. “Until owners are able to attract tenants, then it’s unlikely to subside.”

Wahler said the municipality is working to draw new business but has an abundance of commercial sites that are unfilled or partially filled. When vacancies occur, the landlord is not getting the potential value out of a building and can legally appeal his taxes, Wahler said.

“There’s market conditions at play here. Some of the facilities we have in town are considered obsolete by today’s standards. Businesses need to retrofit. Some did demolitions; they’ll build to suit. The days of building (an office or similar structure) and hoping you’ll fill it are over.”

Wahler said the town’s budget probably can withstand the amount of tax appeals it expects this year, adding that no layoffs are expected at this point. “If state aid stays the same as it was in 2010, we should be OK,” he said.

Piscataway’s situation is not unique.

Towns across New Jersey, especially those with ample office space and a lack of tenants, should anticipate more tax appeals in the foreseeable future, said Matthew Wenk, a staff attorney with the New Jersey State League of Municipalities. “There (have been) some encouraging indications about the economy. If it continues to pick up, you might see it (the appeals) drop off a little.”

But towns should continue to set aside money for payouts, he added. “The best advice is to look at neighboring municipalities, search state for similar cases. Stay in touch with their municipal attorney. He or she can advise on what (a town) should probably be budgeting for,” Wenk said.

This entry was posted in Economics, New Jersey Real Estate, Property Taxes. Bookmark the permalink.

128 Responses to Commercial property tax appeals slam NJ budgets

  1. grim says:

    From CNBC (from Friday):

    Massachusetts High Court Slams Banks on Mortgage Foreclosures

    There’s no way to overstate the importance of today’s decision by the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts to void the seizure of two homes by Wells Fargo and US Bancorp.

    The unanimous decision holds that the Wells Fargo and US Bancorp lacked authority to foreclose on two houses they seized back in 2007. You can be sure that a tsunami of cases contesting past foreclosures is about to crash down on the Bay State.

    It’s also about to become much harder to find third-party buyers for foreclosed homes. Buyers won’t want to put up money for houses if they are worried that a court may rule the foreclosure was improper.

    The decision has serious implications for securitizations. Both of the mortgages in question were bundled into mortgage-backed securities. The court held that the plaintiffs had failed to show that title to the homes had been properly transferred in the process, which meant that the securitization trust never took legal possession of the mortgage. That raises the prospect of empty mortgage bonds or, as I like to think of them, mortgage unbacked securities.

    You can be sure that a lot of investors in mortgage bonds will be asking the trustee banks questions about assignment records after today’s decision.

  2. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  3. grim says:

    From MarketWatch:

    Foreclosure ruling may be good news for homeowners

    A ruling against two lenders in Massachusetts on Friday sends a warning to the industry: Before foreclosing on what is for many Americans their most valuable asset — their home — lenders must have proof they have the authority to do it.

    “What banks are going to have to do is make sure they’ve dotted their I’s and crossed their T’s before going through with a foreclosure,” said Stuart Rossman, director of litigation at the National Consumer Law Center. The center submitted a brief in the case, on behalf of the homeowners.

    Extra caution with the paperwork could mean a slower pace of foreclosures ahead, said Roy D. Oppenheim, senior partner at Oppenheim Law, based in Weston, Fla.

    And lenders may be likelier to consider other cures before deciding to proceed with a foreclosure, he said.

    The ruling is a positive for homeowners, not only if they’re in the middle of a foreclosure process, but also as they try to work out modifications, refinances and short sales to avoid foreclosure, Rossman said.

    “You need to have the confidence that the party you’re dealing with has the authority to cut a deal with you,” he said.

    Cutting a deal might become easier in the wake of the decision, in Oppenheim’s opinion.

    “I am expecting the banks to do fewer foreclosures and to engage in serious conversation in pre-foreclosure with borrowers. We’re already seeing [some] modifications that included for the first time principal reduction,” Oppenheim said.

  4. grim says:

    From Time:

    Will Massachusetts Mortgage Ruling Boost House Prices?

    A number of market watchers and housing analysts are saying that a recent real estate ruling by the Massachusetts Supreme Court could be a big boon for the housing market. While the ruling may reduce the number of houses for sale for the next few months, it’s not clear that it would boost housing prices. Here’s why:

    On Friday, the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled in two separate cases that banks have to have proof that they own a house before starting a foreclosure. In the past, banks were allowed to start the eviction process, and often even finish it, even if they didn’t have all the paperwork on hand that proved they, or their investors, owned the house. Only after the bank was challenged did it have to produce evidence that it had the right to foreclose.

    Sounds obvious, but for banks it’s a big deal. At the height of the real estate boom, mortgages were bought and sold by banks often into trusts owned by thousands of investors. In many cases, the paperwork that detailed those transactions was sloppy. Sometimes it was lost or destroyed. The result is that many banks don’t have the documents readily on hand to prove they own a house. If pushed, most can establish that they have the right to foreclose. But that’s a costly process, so mostly banks have been trying to only produce that paperwork when pushed after foreclosures have already been filed. The Massachusetts ruling, if followed around the country, will force banks to have all the documentation on every foreclosure before the process is started, or risk not being able to foreclose. The rising number of foreclosures has dramatically slowed the time it takes a bank to repossess a house from little over eight months to nearly a year and a half. The Mass ruling could dramatically slow foreclosures further.

    My problem with Salmon and the NY Time’s logic is that the inventory of foreclosed homes is not disappearing, it’s just going to be delayed. It’s very different. So while home buyers may temporarily have fewer houses to currently choose from, they will know that more houses–the shadow inventory–at lower prices, are likely to be available soon. Sellers know this as well. So it will take away the leverage they have to raise houses. Homebuyers may be more willing to pass knowing there could be better deals down the road.

    Ed Leamer of the UCLA Forecast, like me, is skeptical of this idea that a policy of “pretend and extend” will somehow boost the housing market. He points out that sales have started rising again in California, where there are fewer foreclosures challenged in court, than in Florida, in which foreclosures have to be approved by judges, and take much longer. Quicker foreclosures have lead to a healthier market. And if banks have been able to survive foreclosures in the nation’s largest and once hottest housing market, why not elsewhere. Leamer says delaying foreclosures is worse. Banks will not start lending again until they know the full extent of their losses in the housing market. And bank credit, and getting the housing market off government life support, is key to restoring rising prices, or at least not falling ones. What’s more, foreclosure times have been rising all year, and more dramatically recently. Yet, housing prices continue to fall. So if there is a benefit of delaying foreclosures, we haven’t seen it yet.

  5. grim says:

    From CNN/Money:

    America’s most overvalued – and undervalued – cities
    City Median home price % overvalued for 2011 % overvalued for 2012
    Nassau-Suffolk, N.Y. $418,416 26% 27%
    Los Angeles $368,056 24% 25%
    Portland, Ore. $240,912 24% 23%
    Anaheim, Calif. $449,396 23% 25%
    Edison, N.J. $286,900 20% 20%
    San Jose, Calif. $511,186 19% 22%
    New York, N.Y. $403,408 17% 17%
    Poughkeepsie, N.Y. $236,016 16% 16%

  6. grim says:

    Funny business at the Philly sheriff’s office? From HousingWire:

    Philly Sheriff issues 50-day moratorium on foreclosure sales

    Philadelphia acting Sheriff Barbara Deeley on Friday issued an immediate moratorium on all sheriff sales in the city for 50 days. Sheriff sales are extremely similar to normal foreclosure auctions; certain states around the country, however, require that a sheriff preside over the sale.

    The latest moratorium comes as the embattled Sheriff’s office faces an ongoing investigation of alleged financial mismanagement.

    According to a press release from her office, Deeley placed Director of Finance and Compliance Tyrone Bynum, Solicitor Edward Chew, and Real Estate Supervisor Crystal Stewart on immediate leave with pay until Feb 7. After that, they’re out, her office said.

    She also reassigned the director of real estate, Daryl Stewart, outside of the Real Estate Division. That change is effective immediately.

    Deeley also terminated all agreements and business relationships with Reach Communications, RCS Searchers and all the title companies currently doing business with her office.

  7. SOS, DD.

    Rancid cheesesteak in Philly? Banish the thought.

  8. All the pillars of society are crumbling now. When we look back, we’ll see that rule of law was actually one of the first to collapse.

    Now, we’re just determining what the origin of the carnage and final collapse will be.

    Oblivion, dead ahead.

  9. Something rotten in Denmark, Stimpy:

    “Europe is now literally living day to day. After last night it was announced that Japan is joining China in purchasing a substantial portion of European debt, using its FX reserves to buy up to 20% of European issuance and thus becoming simply the latest selfish trade surplus country doing all it can to keep its key export partner afloat (to the detriment of USD bond purchasing, confirming the Fed’s monetization of debt will never end), today that ultimate backstop, the ECB, has for the second day in a row been purchasing Portuguese bonds to make sure there is no collapse in the sovereign debt market. The good news: Greece managed to place €1.95 billion in 6 month Bills… at the ridiculous rate of 4.9% and 3.4 Bid to Cover, which nonetheless happened to be an deterioration in both rate from the previous November 9 Bill auction, printing at 4.82%, and had a much higher 5.15 bid to cover.”

  10. Nation of Wussies HEHEHE says:

    Dem planning bill that would outlaw threats to lawmakers

    This is only fair. They are, after all, a superior race of humans to the rest of America. I still want them to clarify if a lobbyist threatens to withold campaign donations if it will be considered a “threat”.

  11. Nation of Wussies HEHEHE says:

    “when the economy picks up” January 10, 2011 Urban Word of the Day

    Common beginning or ending to a sentence. It can serve to:

    1. provide an excuse for why one has not yet done something.
    2. suggest a vague intention of doing something later (similar to how Spanish speakers use the word “mañana.”)
    3. add minimal credibility to an idea that is a pipe dream.

    1. There’s no point in looking for a job until the economy picks up.
    2. I’ll start my business when the economy picks up.
    3. Unemployment levels will go back down to the levels they were in the late 1990s when the economy picks up.”

  12. Looks like the economy picked up and moved out of town.

  13. Nation of Wussies HEHEHE says:

    I am going to buy a Hoboken condo when the economy picks up.

  14. Nation of Wussies HEHEHE says:

    Ben Bernanke will be vindicated when the economy picks up.

  15. borat obama says:


  16. 30 year realtor says:

    The beauty of the Ibanez decision in Massachusetts is the simplicity. Decision was unanimous because there can be no argument with the central issue. The law is pure and basic. There is a prescribed manner in which mortgages are recorded and assigned that has been in place for more than a century. Plaintiff did not follow the law regarding assignments and the court found for the defendant

  17. JJ says:

    Nassau-Suffolk, N.Y. $418,416 26% 27%

    They say Nassau is overvalued, but is it really? Sure from a national average it is? But my blue collar town the average working blue collar couple makes 200K a year. Cop/Fireman married to Teacher/Nurse. These people don’t save for college, have no commuting expenses, don’t need to save for retirement or medical expenses. Pretty easy in my town to get a decent 400K house. With 20% down and a 5% mortgage that is a whooping $1,700 a month mortgage for a couple making almost 17K a month income. And this is for a couple buying today, plenty of these couples got married young at 24 and bought in 1996 when these little fixer uppers in my town were $180k most no longer have mortgages or little mortgages. The middle class on LI are like no where else in the world. I love volunteer fireman and cop stickers on 5 series and E classes all over my town. The cops and fireman don’t want to live in snooty neighborhoods and dont care about sending kids to good colleges nor have to save for retirement. Boo Hoo, they have to spend 400K on a house insteard of 200K like elsewhere. Too bad elsewhere blue collar couples make 80K instead of 200k.

  18. Steve Lies Man finally figures out there’s a banking crisis in Europe.

  19. 30 year (16)-

    But Moose says banksters should be able to forge transfer instruments and affidavits as they see fit, so that he can get a house on the cheap.

  20. jj (17)-

    Don’t you think you’ve beaten this meme to death?

    “But my blue collar town the average working blue collar couple makes 200K a year.”

  21. JJ says:

    Ready to vomit, CHIFI – GMAC bonds being offered with a yield of 1.207 percent. Crazy hah, I was buying this crap less than 24 months ago with a yield of 27%. How soon people forget.

    37042G2Y1 GENERAL MTRS ACCEP CPSMARTNBE 6.80000% 04/15/2013CALL
    Quantity Available 48
    Ask Price 101.404 Bid Price
    Ask Yield / Type 1.207

  22. 30 year realtor says:

    #19 – I guess that could lead one to believe that Moose is lower on the morality & ethics scale than a used house salesman!

  23. homeboken says:

    Apparently the only people that live in JJs blue colar town are cops nurses and teachers.

  24. Nation of Wussies HEHEHE says:

    “Apparently the only people that live in JJs blue colar town are cops nurses and teachers.”


    You forgot they are all: SUPER-HOT!!! cops, nurses and teachers.

  25. 30 year (22)-

    All the more justification for someone to bust a cap on him.

  26. homeboken says:

    2010 AMI for a 4 person household in Nassau-Suffolk – $74,250.

    Once again, JJ never lets the facts get in the way of a good story.

  27. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    Grim 5

    The huge run up in home prices over the last decade have cause the median price to be of limited use in quick assessments. Look at Edison as an example with a median of 286K. Where in Edison are you going to find a median home for 286K that isnt a POS cape?
    Perhaps this arises from an overall reduction in the quality of available housing stock and that 286K POS really is a representative median?

    This effect seems to appear in the major regional markets such as the northeast and west coast. As one gets away from these regions the median appears to be more representative per the data i have looked at. Is this a low level of brazilification (increased socioeconomic stratification) that we are seeing in the more high density markets?

  28. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    JJ’s blue collar neighbors…

  29. JJ says:

    Nassau has Freeport, Roosvelt, etc. where gangmembers, illegals, drunks, drugies live. None own homes, most on welfare in sub housing. There average income is counted in. Average income of a white/asian college educated or white/asian 35-50 union worker is income I count

    homeboken says:
    January 11, 2011 at 9:14 am

    2010 AMI for a 4 person household in Nassau-Suffolk – $74,250.

    Once again, JJ never lets the facts get in the way of a good story.

  30. homeboken says:

    JJ 32 – So if I were to ask your neighbors about their town, they would tell me that “It’s different here?”

    Where have I heard that before?

  31. 30 year realtor says:

    #25 – That type of comment isn’t funny. In the wake of the Arizona shooting such comments are even more offensive. Why do you go there?

  32. NJGator says:

    N.J. pension board members denounce former Harrison firefighter as a cheat, fraud

    TRENTON — The chairman of a state pension board publicly denounced a former Harrison firefighter as a cheat and a fraud Monday for collecting a $2,500-per-month disability pension from New Jersey while working as a full-time firefighter in North Carolina.

    As Herman Ellis looked on impassively during a hearing in Trenton, the board voted to refer the case to the state Attorney General’s Office for criminal investigation. Board members also said they plan to review whether they can recoup the money Ellis has been paid.

    “This is clearly fraud — fraud to steal from the state of New Jersey pension fund,” board chairman John Sierchio said.

    Ellis, 39, has collected more than $60,000 in payments from the New Jersey Police and Firemen’s Retirement System since he retired on disability in November 2008. During the same period, he has worked as a firefighter in Raleigh, N.C., earning $37,000 annually.

  33. dan says:

    30 Year,

    The day we can’t rant about offing the banksters, polticians and bureaucrats who are working every day at putting us into permanent indentured servitude is the day there’s just no point of turning on the computer anymore.

  34. JJ says:

    Actually my neighbor paid 40k for his house. My town is blue collar type people who buy a cape, ranch or split on a small plot and live there till they die. The average couple in their 40’s bought their home back between 1991 and 2001, the average old couple bought in the 1960s and 1970s. Other than a few new folk who bought at peak home prices are meaningless in a town where people die in their houses. My neighbor who bought his house at 40K and will die in it and has not had a mortgage in 20 years told me unless my house falls to under 40K I could give a crap about its value.

    homeboken says:
    January 11, 2011 at 9:32 am

    JJ 32 – So if I were to ask your neighbors about their town, they would tell me that “It’s different here?”

    Where have I heard that before?

  35. Mike says:

    GMS Group is offering a tax free general obligation bond for Newark in today’s Ledger with a 5.75% rate. Plus it’s insured. Are there any opionated bond experts in Grimmy’s club?

  36. 30 year (34)-

    Funny how within hours of this assault, politicians and media seized upon it to both wrongly place blame and call for controversial speech to be muzzled.

    Almost makes you think this was planned and coordinated. Amazing how many people in law enforcement and media all simultaneously began using the word “vitriolic” in every sentence they utter.

    There is still no evidence that this attack was inspired by Beck, Palin or Limbaugh (not that I have any regard for these three).

  37. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    The shooter appears to have had a history of mental ilness as well as making death threats

    Jared Loughner has been making death threats by phone to many people in Pima County including staff of Pima Community College, radio personalities and local bloggers. When Pima County Sheriff’s Office was informed, his deputies assured the victims that he was being well managed by the mental health system. It was also suggested that further pressing of charges would be unnecessary and probably cause more problems than it solved as Jared Loughner has a family member that works for Pima County. Amy Loughner is a Natural Resource specialist for the Pima County Parks and Recreation.

    All disclaimers of course.

  38. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    Main stream source that appears to support the first link

    Sheriff Clarence Dupnik of Pima County, where the shooting happened, told reporters the suspect had a troubled past. “All I can tell you is that this person may have a mental issue,” Dupnik said.

    Dupnik said there had been earlier contact between Loughner and law enforcement after he had made death threats, although they had not been against Giffords.

  39. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    This appears to be the sad and unfortunate case of a mentally ill individual who probably did need help and wasnt getting it for what ever reason.

    (01-09) 21:10 PST SAN FRANCISCO — Posting strange and paranoid messages on the Internet and fixating on the end of the world, accused gunman Jared Lee Loughner appeared to be more driven by a delusional mind than a real interest in politics, mental health experts said Sunday.

    “I doubt people who say this is about politics have a good understanding of mental illness,” said Dr. Bob Dolgoff, medical director of Alta Bates Summit Medical Center’s mental health division. “It could be conspiracy theories or men from outer space. The important thing here is, why wasn’t he in treatment?”

    Loughner, 22, was charged Sunday in the shooting of 20 people at a political event outside a supermarket in Tucson. Six of the victims died, and 14 were wounded, including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords – with whom Loughner may have become obsessed.

    Despite his ramblings on YouTube about “informing conscience dreamers about a new currency,” and despite his anti-social behavior, Loughner apparently received no diagnosis of mental illness.

    Instead, he lived at home with his parents after being suspended from college – where educators say they conditioned his return upon him seeking help.

    Read more:

  40. 250k says:

    Debt Clot and 30 year, thanks for the feedback on “let-go” Realtor from yesterday. She doesn’t strike me at all as the kind of person who would do something unethical or be a pain in the arse to the broker. I am fairly certain that as RE is a part-time endeavor for her, she simply wasn’t producing but I take your feedback seriously.

    Article of possible interest (although I am not sure how this writer considers herself to be a journalist):
    Want A Great Job? Don’t Go To Second-Tier Schools Like Columbia And MIT

    Read more:

  41. chicagofinance says:

    30.Schrodinger’s Cat says:
    January 11, 2011 at 9:27 am

    kettel: you are a careless asshole….now I have to clean up my PC because of your idiot link….

  42. Painhrtz says:

    30 year #34 really, uggh.

    I blame the terrori$t$ on 911 for having bad aim in washington. If the morons hit the capitol building we would have been 1/3 of the way through to fixing the problem.

    No conspiracy theorist but man this Giffords thing reaks of a false flag action by the Dems against the repubs. Personally wish they would just get into an all out shooting event with each other so the 85% of us independent thinkers can get on with our lives

  43. 250k (43)-

    It is true that brokers nowdays will let go a part-time, non-productive agent, as such agents skew the office stats (upon which a good amount of broker comp depends).

    Even if that’s the situation with your agent prospect, the last thing you want in this market is an agent who isn’t practicing consistently and who has no depth of closed transaction experience.

  44. Painhrtz says:

    30 was that offensive enough for you because I can probably think of a few others involving border crossers, ovens and eugenics. PC behaviour is for the weak minded who are easily offended by stupid comments who have a need to feel superior to due to evolved sense of moralism. If clot offends you don’t read his rants, I find them humuroous and pretty much on pulse with how a lot of well informed people feel these days no matter color race or gender.

  45. Thundaar says:

    250k- Not always the Realtor….sometimes the broker could be unethical….realtors have very little recourse in NJ. RE comission will not dare go against their fellow brokers. All in bed together……..

  46. 30 year realtor says:

    Debt makes comment about how another regular commenter on this blog should be capped and I find it inappropriate. There are more effective ways to deal with trolls. In regard to Arizona shooting, people were murdered and it isn’t funny.

    I have a good friend who was visited by the FBI after making comments on a blog about the murder of a federal prosecutor. You guys can joke all you like. Please post about your interaction with the FBI. That will amuse me.

  47. joyce says:


    The bodies were still warm and all these fascists already have legislation typed up and ready to go. Not to mention within minutes everything about this guy was spread across the 24/7 news media… I mean everything, facebook pics, youtube vids, interviews from class mates that haven’t seen him in years, his favorite music, political rants, movies, books…

    And is this attributable to an incredible effort by our objective news media or preplanned staging?

  48. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    Why do we need a new law? last i checked murder out side of justifiable self defense, was still illegal.

  49. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    30 yr #49

    People are shot everyday all around the world in very tragic circumstances. i dont think anyone here found the arizona incident amusing. I dont see why another shooting incident, as tragic as it may be would require anyone here to alter their behavior which has not harmed anyone to the best of my knowledge.

  50. relo says:

    Paging Johnny Bond:

    Issuer: UBS (Aa2/A+)
    Term: 1 year
    Underlying Asset: Halliburton Co (HAL)
    Coupon: 10.250% (to be set on trade date)
    Coupon frequency: Monthly pay
    Contingent Protection: 20% (observation only at maturity)
    Trade Date: 01/13/11 (ticketing closes @ 3:00 pm ET)
    Settlement Date: 01/13/11

  51. Shore Guy says:

    “. RE comission will go against their fellow brokers. All in bed together……”

    Ahhh. I saw that movie. The RE Horror Picture Show. Clot was shooting every one with a water gun. It was an Obama Super Soak the Rich Model 250k.

  52. JJ says:

    I agree 100% with that theory. An extra 100k is meaningless to me. I can’t buy a mansion, yacht get servants, spend like crazy. The things I want to do that the real rich can do. But a 40K guy who ends up with a 140K job would think he hit the jackput.

    ricky_nu says:
    January 11, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    JJ – that you on comment #14?

  53. Shore Guy says:


  54. Shore Guy says:


    Above is another bot post to delete.

  55. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    More on the Ibanez case implications

    Why It Could Be Very Hard for Banks to Avoid Ibanez Mortgage Catastrophes

    …..The word that is being passed around by very smart research analysts such as Laurie Goodman at Amherst Securities is that the decision is not going to be what Felix Salmon has called a “bank-eating cancer.” She argues that while this might mean more paperwork and delays in foreclosure, banks should be able to eventually prove their case and seize the properties when borrowers default on mortgages:

    One final positive note on the ruling—the court did not say that the lenders could not go back and re-foreclose on these properties. And based on what the lenders have re-documented since the initial actions, the lender should be able to restart and complete the action now, subject to the normal legal delays.

    But this might be far more difficult than Goodman thinks….

    …..The solution to this seems easy enough. From now on, banks seeking to foreclose should just make sure that whoever is the last recorded assignee grants a new assignment to the foreclosing entity before the bank takes any action. No doubt this is what Goodman has in mind when she says banks will go back and re-document the assignments.

    It might not be so easy. Let’s say you are US Bancorp and you find yourself with a mortgage whose chain of title is incomplete. You took the mortgage from a now bankrupt subsidiary of the now bankrupt Lehman Brothers. Getting someone at Lehman to go through the process of executing the assignment is going to be very difficult. It’s not even clear if anyone at Lehman Brothers has the legal authority to execute an assignment now, while Lehman is bankrupt.

    In any case, getting the assignment from Lehman wouldn’t really help you. You’d still have a gap in the chain from Option One to Lehman. It’s probably best to skip over Lehman all together and go directly to Option One to ask for the assignment.

    But you have a bit of a problem. You didn’t buy the mortgage from Option One. They aren’t under any contractual obligation to you to execute any documents. So when you call, here’s how the conversation goes.

    US Bank dude: “Hey, can I speak to whoever it is who is handling the Ibanez mortgage?”

    Option One guy (after some delay): “No one handles that mortgage. We sold it five years ago to Lehman and closed the file.”

    US Bank: “Right. Okay. Well, I need you to find someone who will execute an assignment of the mortgage to me.”

    Option One: “First of all, no one who handled that mortgage still works here. You might have heard about the mortgage meltdown, right? Second, we sold it to Lehman, according to the file.”

    US Bank: “Right. But I bought it from Lehman.”

    Option One: “So get the assignment from Lehman.”

    US Bank: “They’re an empty company that is in bankruptcy.”

    Option One: “I’ve heard about that. Thanks for the news.”

    US Bank: “So I need you to execute the assignment.”

    Option One: “First of all, you’re going to have to show me that you bought the loan from Lehman. Second, I need to talk to legal to make sure I can assign a mortgage to someone we never dealt with. Third, how much are you willing to pay me to do all this?”

    US Bank: “Pay you? I already own the mortgage.”

    Option One: “The mortgage we sold to Lehman. If Lehman asks for the assignment, we’ll do it as part of that deal. But, as far as I can tell, I don’t owe you anything. If you want an assignment, you’re going to at least be paying the legal bills for the legal opinion that says it’s okay for us to do this.”

    US Bank: “You don’t have to be an [expletive deleted] about this.”

    Option One: “I also don’t have to give you an assignment.”

    By the way, if you do get Option One to assign it to Lehman, you might find yourself trapped. In that case, the mortgage arguably becomes part of the estate of Lehman—subject to the jurisdiction of the bankruptcy court. Sure, eventually, you may be able to prove that you are entitled to the assignment from Lehman. But you’ll be fighting the other creditors, who will argue that you are just one more unsecured creditor in a long line of people who say that Lehman owes them something.

    While this example might be specific to loans that went through Lehman, these kind of problems are not likely to be confined to the sizable part of the mortgage market that went through Lehman at one time or another. A great many of the companies involved have entered bankruptcy or changed ownership. When these companies appear in the ownership chain, “re-documenting” the assignments may be all but impossible

  56. Painhrtz says:

    Cat 53 +1

    I wish somebody would just call it for what it was; a crazy unbalanced kid with no potential prospects uses vote with a bullet to ensure his name is scribbled as an infamous footnote to history. If the current fedral gun laws and reporting sytems for gun ownership were enforced this looney may have very well just walked in weating a vest full of ball bearings and homemade explosives. Crazy always finds a way. Should I alter my behavior, absolutely not, wish gun violence on innocents no way.

    The way I see it Dems got a bluedog taken out, have a child on the body count, and are pointing the finger at their biggest critics as instigating the violence to a sedated populace. Political correctness aside, for them this is like Christmas and will be treated as such through more regulation. In six months I can already see a law drawn up with the little/giffords name attached to it, more civil liberties curtailed while be just once step further away from where we started as a republic. As much as I hate to quote clot we are f*cked, some of us already aware of it and are just waiting to watch it all burn.

  57. Painhrtz says:

    Coming to a welfare state near you

  58. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    Pain 63

    The law of diminishing returns is a b1tch. I wonder how much of an increase in revenue they will actually see from this. I would be willing to guess that Illinois is far enough down the slippery slope that the mobile capital still in Illinois will move to protect itself in short order.
    Your bankrupt. Default and get it over with.

  59. Essex says:

    Guns are for pussies.

  60. ChicagoIP says:


    “It’s also about to become much harder to find third-party buyers for foreclosed homes. Buyers won’t want to put up money for houses if they are worried that a court may rule the foreclosure was improper.”

    Can anyone educate me on the details of improper foreclosure? From my vague recollection of property law, a third party purchaser would be a bona fide purchaser of value, and a BFP of value generally has some shielding. After all, the screw up is between the bank and the original bagholder. Of course, a break in the chain clouds his title and may affect his ability to sell down the road, but maybe there are quiet title proceedings to fix that. So what exactly is the Third Guy dealing with?

    I went into intellectual property law because real property law is too hard.

  61. Painhrtz says:

    Essex thats why I use a bow ; )

    Cat – no kidding Shicago is like NY with the exception of the high wages, but when you go to places like Sprinfield and Decatur you realize how strategic default would be in that states best interests. Same for every other union heavy state but state governemtns can’t default can they?

  62. Essex says:

    I’m a knife man myself.

  63. chicagofinance says:

    Finally cleaned out my PC you fuk!

  64. joyce says:


    I completely agree. I hope I wasn’t giving the impression that I’m in favor of new laws (especially when I called them fascists).

    The only “law” we need is the Common Law (individual rights, property rights, fraud, etc.).

  65. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    but state governments can’t default can they?

    Sure they can, it would just be messy.

  66. chicagofinance says:
  67. JJ says:

    chicagofinance says:
    January 11, 2011 at 1:40 pm

    Finally cleaned out my PC you fuk!

    Sallie Mae, Sears and GMAC bonds doing good today!!!! Back in March 2009 the odds of all three even being alive today was like zero. Amazing

  68. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    whats up with all the bots today?

  69. Painhrtz says:

    Listen I like Christie’s rhetoric to the union hagfish, but 53% approval rating!? Guess you can fool people with words and not deeds. Not like I needed a lesson in flock behavior, but man other than beating his cheaseburger fueled chest what has he really done in a year? 2% property tax cap, great that basically institutes a 2% gaurunteed increase of my property taxes every year. Hooray!

  70. Confused In NJ says:

    SPRINGFIELD, Ill. – Crippled by a massive deficit, Illinois has seen its bills pile up and its bond ratings fall. Now the state’s Democratic leaders are making a desperate effort, and fighting the clock, to fill the budget hole with an equally massive tax increase.

    They want to boost the personal income tax rate temporarily by up to 75 percent, pushing the current rate of 3 percent as high as 5.25 percent.

    In sheer percentage terms, the Illinois proposal could be the biggest tax increase on the long list of increases states have passed as they grappled with recent economic woes.

  71. chicagofinance says:

    JJ: what are the fcuking odds that I ever get to buy that beer you weenie?

  72. chicagofinance says:

    Stu: that you would be interested….

    Oppneheimer analyst Timothy Horan tells us the new iPhone is no good for service providers, period. Of course it’s a negative for AT&T simply because they lose exclusivity but he also thinks it’s a negative catalyst for Verizon because, ”there are very high subsidies in the iPhone,” he says, “and that could impact Verizon’s earnings by as much as 10% this year.”

    Based on the just announced pricing of $199 for a 16-gigabyte model or $299 for the 32-gigabyte model (with a two-year agreement) Horan thinks there’s about a $400 subsidy.

  73. Anon E. Moose says:

    30-yr [34];

    True, but its de rigeur for Sr. Schizo and his online persona.

    One of these days, if Sr. Schizo goes all Loughner and gets frog-marched on the news after the authorities find the weapons cache in his basement, his neighbors will will be quoted on the news saying “Such a quiet guy, we never knew he had it in him.” We, of course, will know better.

    However, my money from the beginning has been that its all hot air. As I’ve said, the number of people whose lives he’s threatened would fill the new Meadowlands, all of us alive and well.

  74. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    CHifi, Stu 81

    I have read commentary that their data networks could face a noticeable slow down if the see to much growth in the smart phone category. I have also read that you cant use both data and phone at the same time on the verizon (CDMA) network.

  75. Anon E. Moose says:

    Cat [59];

    So its not that a bank can’t foreclose on the deatbeat, they just can’t foreclose … today. Tomorrow doesn’t look good either. Try back later.

    Or to quote HEHEH [11], “mañana”.

  76. Anon E. Moose says:

    ChIP [64];

    I hope you’re doing ‘soft’ IP. It really isn’t that difficult – you can’t sell what you don’t own.

    The rub is, the banksters set up this enetity called “MERS” to act as clearing house and recording agent for all the ins and outs of the securitization process, so the banks wouldn’t have to pay local government its recording fees each time the mortgage changed hands. But MERS never really owned anything, they were an explicit straw man. Since they never owned anything, they can’t have sold anything, which is what they supposedly did right before the foreclosure in order to get the real party in interest to be plaintiff in the foreclosure. So apparently, if the foreclosing bank says they got title from MERS, they really got nothing, and can’t foreclose on the basis on their present chain of title.

    So they can’t foreclose for ANOTHER three years, while the deadbeat lives in their house without paying; keeping inventory off the market and prices still artificially high; and assets on the books of the banks at mark-to-fantasy prices.

    Of course if you’re not a deadbeat, you’re paying every month (SUCKER!). But that’s OK as long as the populists can beat their chests about “sticking it” to the “big banks”. Its not like there are any consequences to real people, especially people who aren’t deadbeats living in homes they could never have hoped to afford.

  77. chicagofinance says:

    clot? what was the argument regarding? how he was cutting the coke?

    Man with ‘golden’ voice briefly held by LA police

    LOS ANGELES — Ted Williams, the Ohio homeless man whose smooth radio voice made him an Internet sensation, has had to do some quick talking to Los Angeles police.

    Officer Catherine Massey says Williams and his daughter got into a heated argument Monday night at a Hollywood hotel and officers were called.

    Massey says officers took the pair to the Hollywood police station, calmed them down, talked to them and let them go in less than hour.

    She says it was a minor disturbance and the pair weren’t arrested. She doesn’t know the nature of the argument but says there weren’t any signs of physical abuse. The name of Williams’ daughter wasn’t released.

  78. Essex says:

    Wow! The collective IQ here is easily above average.

  79. Shore Guy says:

    I’m so very, very happy that Mrs. Shore and I are facing a large increase on our Illinois income.

  80. Essex says:

    Hilarious! Love that. OK ya got me.

  81. Nicholas says:

    Sneaky Yahoo Finance was able to worm this one into one of the pieces that they were doing on overpriced Law Degrees. Apparently the mortgage broker at countrywide broke the law. Perhaps Mr. Wallerstein should be doing his civic duty and reporting this mortgage broker.

    F’k you very much Mr. Wallerstein for not saving this country from the mess we now find ourselves in due to your ability to look past a mortgage brokers criminal activity. Seriously, when you see someone breaking the law then you report them to the proper authorities.

    When Mr. Wallerstein started at Thomas Jefferson, he was in no mood for austerity. He borrowed so much that before the start of his first semester he nearly put a down payment on a $350,000 two-bedroom, two-bath condo, figuring that the investment would earn a profit by the time he graduated. He was ready to ink the deal until a rep at the mortgage giant Countrywide (NYSE: CFC-PA – News) asked if his employer at the time — a trade magazine publisher in New Jersey — would write a letter falsely stating that he was moving to San Diego for work.

    “We were on a three-way call with my real estate agent and I said I didn’t feel comfortable with that,” he says. “The Countrywide guy chuckled and said, ‘Everyone lies on their mortgage application.’ “

  82. 30 year (49)-

    I pretty much figure the way I will eventually die will be at the hands of the FBI.

    No big. All of us have to go sometime.

  83. Essex says:

    Liar loans? Nothing new. But it was enough rope to hang the morons who did it!

  84. jj (74)-

    They are dead…and being kept on life support, Schiavo-style.

    Welcome to the brave new necronomy!

    “Sallie Mae, Sears and GMAC bonds doing good today!!!! Back in March 2009 the odds of all three even being alive today was like zero. Amazing”

  85. moose (82)-

    Actually, the only person here I’d like to see dead is you. And you started it, asshole.

    “However, my money from the beginning has been that its all hot air. As I’ve said, the number of people whose lives he’s threatened would fill the new Meadowlands, all of us alive and well.”

  86. leftwing says:

    Update in the government picking winners and losers sweepstakes.

    Last year I shared my friend’s experience with one of the alphabet soup federal programs that had Bank of America write him, unsolicited, a check for $100k by forgiving that much from the mortgage principal of an investment property he owned in another state.

    Recall, this mortgage relief was for a guy in his late 40s, who has net equity among multiple properties, has never been late on a payment for any of them, is gainfully employed by the same company for at least a decade, and lives in one of the wealthier towns in one of the wealthiest counties in America.

    Good news. He had another banner year last year so his base is increased by $50k and he was given additional sales terrority responsibilities which so far have generated another incremental $60k for him.

    He is guaranteed an earnings INCREASE of at least $110k over 2010.

    He thanks the American taxpyer profusely for the $100k of equity you gave him last year.

  87. relo says:

    97: Let me guess. No 1099 either?

  88. relo says:

    97: See Moose, if you owned a house you could have been in the sweepstakes too!

  89. leftwing says:

    Have two. I put 1/3 to 50% down though with a local bank who holds, not sells, mortgages.

    My bad!

  90. Shore Guy says:

    Speaking of people I would not mourn were they to die in a firey bus crash.

    What kind of person hails the murder of a nine year old and praises the murderer? I am not the best Christian in the world, or even my side of the street osn my block, but I have to believe that Christ would take a dim view of these folks from Westboro.

  91. ChicagoIP says:

    #85 Moose

    Appreciate the response. Maybe I really should do soft IP. All the fast Fourier transformation and quasi-eigen approximation is making my head spin today. Unfortunately, I still don’t get what happens to a third party that purchased a foreclosure without knowledge of the errors. And I don’t understand any better after reading your detailed response.

    If I bought a erroneously foreclosed home, what would happen to me?

  92. Shore Guy says:

    Bent over a straightback chair, I would think.

  93. Shore Guy says:


    We were glad to help out our down and out brother

  94. JJ says:

    Chifi, I am coming to work in snow tommorrow and my lunch is canceled I want to go that cheap place for drinks

  95. Painhrtz says:

    Shore I hope the group of bikers that surrounds them send them off to the rapture early. I’m growing really weary of their stupid a$$ fundamentalist BS.

    god hates shrimp

  96. 30 year realtor says:

    #82 Moose – Just because I don’t believe in death threats doesn’t mean I like or respect you. Please do not take my offense to threats on your life the wrong way.

  97. 30 year realtor says:

    Debt: You make me laugh. Much rather have a beer with you than Moose anytime!

    I don’t care much for threats. Prefer to be quiet and strike without warning.

  98. grim says:

    From the AP:

    Gannett to cut staff at 3 N.J. papers by nearly half

    Gannett Co. will lay off nearly half its editorial staff at three New Jersey community newspapers by next month and will restructure the remaining positions, according to several staffers.

    The affected newspapers are the Courier News of Bridgewater, Daily Record of Parsippany and Home News Tribune of East Brunswick, where a combined 99 staff members will have to apply for 53 remaining positions. Those not kept will be cut loose by Feb. 4.

  99. freedy says:

    suprised those rags are still inbusiness

  100. Shore Guy says:

    30 year,

    A fellow Sicilian I see.

  101. Shore Guy says:

    Anyone here remember the days of the Asbury Park Evening Press?

  102. grim says:

    Panasonic leaving Secaucus?

  103. pain (101)-

    It is well established that God hates poor people the most.

  104. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    The Westboro Baptist church in Kansas praised Jared Lee Loughner for killing six people, including young Christina Taylor Green, right, and wounding 14 others. The church founder, Fred Phelps, posted a video in which he said: “Thank God for the violent shooter, one of your soldier heroes in Tucson. However many are dead, Westboro Baptist church will picket their funerals. We will remind the living you can still repent and obey.”

    where are the Hells Angels when you need them.

  105. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    how does that verse from the bible go, something about a rich man, a camel, and the eye of a needle?

  106. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    Matthew 19:24
    “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

  107. NJCoast says:


    Two friends of mine have been hit with a fast spreading internet scam. Their email and Facebook accounts were hacked and all their contacts were sent an email about them being mugged in London and could they wire them money. All their contacts and previous messages were erased from their email and Facebook accounts so they couldn’t contact anyone to say it was a scam. I have not received the scam message from either of them but I am in their address books.

    So if any of you that have had email contact from me in the past, if you get a message saying I’ve been mugged in London and send money- it’s a scam. Do not open. Do not reply or you will be hacked.

  108. Neanderthal Economist says:

    I agree with 30 yr realtor on the shooting jokes. I realize thats clot’s exaderated blog persona and its easy to get carried away with jokes behind anonymous handles but there is no need to make jokes about shooting anyone, especially two days after the incedent in az.

  109. Neanderthal Economist says:

    72 Cat. If that was sarcasm directed at chi’s posts to you about giving him virus, I give it post of the month.
    And it would be totally lame if you would post virus links but somehow I don’t believe you would do something like that on purpose.

  110. grim says:

    So if any of you that have had email contact from me in the past, if you get a message saying I’ve been mugged in London and send money- it’s a scam. Do not open. Do not reply or you will be hacked.

    Happened to my father last year, they knew enough to contact non-direct family members who wouldn’t immediately realize his whereabouts. Not only that, they attempted to send emails in polish (well, more like a babelfish translation).

  111. Outofstater says:

    #110 That is sick. And picketing a funeral, can it get any lower than that?

  112. chicagofinance says:

    neander: I didn’t think kettel did it on purpose…..that is the reason I referred to him as lazy…..I’m not sure why anyone else wasn’t affected…any theories? I am using Windows 7 OS….

    115.Neanderthal Economist says:
    January 11, 2011 at 7:32 pm
    72 Cat. If that was sarcasm directed at chi’s posts to you about giving him virus, I give it post of the month.
    And it would be totally lame if you would post virus links but somehow I don’t believe you would do something like that on purpose.

  113. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    no sign of viruses that I was aware of. Besides it’s the Internet, you shouldn’t be running around without adequate protection.

  114. Neanderthal Economist says:

    Yea don’t know but viruses blow. I have windows 7 too and didn’t get attacked.
    Maybe it was the pron sites you were running in the other windows? Just a guess though.
    And im pretty sure norton and symantec creates 90% of the viruses out there. And then blames chinese hackers.

  115. 250k says:

    NJ Sony DADC plant to close in March

    PITMAN — The Sony DADC plant will close its doors on March 31 and more than 300 employees were issued layoff notices on Tuesday.

    According to a statement provided by Lisa Gephardt, senior director of corporate communications for Sony, “In light of the current economic environment and challenges facing the physical media industry, Sony DADC is taking additional steps to reduce cost from our supply chain network in order to remain competitive. As part of this process, the Pitman (NJ) manufacturing facility will be closed and all operations at this location will cease on or around March 31, 2011. As a result of this closure, all operations staff positions will be eliminated.”

  116. cat (112)-

    God 2.0 is a much leaner, meaner fighting machine. Even he knows the poor are just a constituency to be bought off.

  117. Libtard says:

    Interesting. My company uses Pitman for Kodak supplies. I feel bad for our salesguy but Kodak is a terrible, terrible company.

    ChiFi: thanks for VZ news. Now some advice…Get Adaware and avast! These two will protect from 99.9999% of viral krap and both are free and run without user intervention and no popup reminders to buy the full versions.

  118. Libtard says:


    Also. Your computer might not really be clean. Lots of the new tr0jans show up when you least expect them and they are incredibly difficult to remove as they bury themselves in your computers registry. If things start going awry, reformat the drive and start over by first downloading adaware and avast before reinstalling any new programs.

  119. chicagofinance says:

    Lib: we are completely clean over here; we have the firewall and malware stuff in place; the malware was a program that installed, but it was my fault. Since I am new to Windows 7, I was unfamiliar with the security sequences. The malware mimics a breach from Windows, but it is a ruse. Once I agreed to continue the clean, I probably unleashed the install. No question it was from cat’s site. The program is a come on to purchase cleaning malware, but god knows what comes after……I went through my directories and manually deleted all the files. Obviously this thing is new because it blew through everything. I saw all of the time stamps on the files…it confirms that it was cat’ site.

    I wrecked my IE8, so I ended up restoring my PC……fcuk you cat!

  120. Shore Guy says:

    Some advice:

    Do not surf the net on an important computer. Instead, use a”disposable” machine like a netbook, older laptop, or tablet.

    Resist the urge to open attachment s.

    I delete just about any mail with an attachment unless I know what is being sent.

    There is a Website something like that us good for cleaning computers and keeping them safe and clean.

  121. sas3 says:

    Chi #97

    “If I bought a erroneously foreclosed home, what would happen to me?”

    Let’s hope not the fate that fell on this guy:

  122. sas3 says:

    aargh! or in English, fate that befell that guy…

Comments are closed.