Best borrowers take the biggest hits

From the NYT:

Fallout From a Poor Credit Score

IF you want to see how quickly you can ruin a great credit score, just skip a mortgage payment.

Missed mortgage payments, serious loan delinquencies, loan modifications, short sales, foreclosures and bankruptcies all drag down credit scores. Because a mortgage is such a big slice of anyone’s credit profile, it carries more weight than other loans. Both FICO and VantageScore have studied and quantified those impacts.

They reached similar conclusions: for people with near-perfect records, a single mortgage payment that’s 30 days late reduces a credit score enough to hurt. For anyone, a short sale — selling a home for less than the amount owed — can be almost as destructive as a foreclosure.

In contrast, a loan modification — when the lender approves new loan terms — can have a “very, very minimal” effect, said Sarah Davies, the senior vice president for analytics at VantageScore. In some cases, the borrower’s score might drop 10 or 15 points.

With a loan modification, said Joanne Gaskin, the director of global scoring solutions at FICO, “the consumer does not have to go delinquent to get assistance.”

Modification horror stories abound; some borrowers have been told they can’t be helped unless they’ve already missed payments. That doesn’t have to be the case, said Josh Zinner, the co-director of the Neighborhood Economic Development Advocacy Project, a New York City nonprofit company active in foreclosure prevention.

In a study last month, FICO looked at how choices would affect three hypothetical mortgage holders: One with a spotless 780 score; another with a good 720, who may have missed a couple of credit card payments three years ago; a third with a not-great, not-toxic 680, who has sometimes fallen seriously behind on credit cards or a car loan. (Most lenders consider poor credit about 650 and below, Ms. Gaskin said.)

-30 days late: The gold-plated 780 drops to 670-690, the middling 720 becomes 630-650, and 680 is now 600-620. Effects are most significant for the strongest borrower. “A continued progression is going to have less and less impact on a score,” Ms. Gaskin said.

-90 days late: This is seriously delinquent, and brings the onetime best borrower down to 650-670, the midlevel one to 610-630, and the weakest to 600-620.

-Short sale, deed in lieu of foreclosure, or settlement, assuming the balance has been wiped out: The result is just a bit less serious. The 780 score deteriorates to 655-675; 720 to 605-625; 680 to 610-630.

-Foreclosure, or short sale with a deficiency balance owed: For either, 780 is 620-640; 720 is 570-590; and 680 is 575-595.

This entry was posted in Foreclosures, National Real Estate, Risky Lending. Bookmark the permalink.

140 Responses to Best borrowers take the biggest hits

  1. First, mf’er. Who cares what his FICO score is when nobody wants to borrow?

    Where are the borrowers? What do they want? Got demand?

  2. Student loan?

    Yeah, right. Please Mr. Gubmint, let my kid run up 95K in debt that can’t be discharged in BK, graduate into an $11/hr McJob and live in my basement until she has to carry my cold, dead body out the door.

    Sounds great; where do we sign up?

  3. This is what happens when you build an economy on the foundations of people selling each other overpriced computer gadgets, $9 hamburgers and fraudulent financial products.

  4. I have watched good mortgage originators take rotten credit (high 500s) to prime (720+) in 18 months. It ain’t rocket science.

    Bad credit scores can be pumped higher almost immediately by sending demand letters to large institutional creditors challenging the dings and asking for further documentation. Often, they don’t provide it in a timely fashion, and the derogatory item can then be struck from the record.

  5. grim says:

    A neighbor recently got solar panels on his south facing roof. As I looked at it, I wondered how he would fix a roof leak, under the shingles under the solar panels?

    Top reasons roofs fail is sun and weather. Oddly enough, the shingles under the panels might actually outlast the panels themselves.

  6. Confused In NJ says:

    5.grim says:
    April 24, 2011 at 7:42 am
    A neighbor recently got solar panels on his south facing roof. As I looked at it, I wondered how he would fix a roof leak, under the shingles under the solar panels?

    Top reasons roofs fail is sun and weather. Oddly enough, the shingles under the panels might actually outlast the panels themselves.

    My neighnbors roof is ten years old and we live in a high wind area. Not sure how they fasten the solar panels but if they are catching the studs through the shingles, one wonders about leaks. I remember in the NY North Country, Steel Roofs were prone to leaks when the rubber grommets around the screws failed from the bad weather.

  7. grim says:

    Not sure how they fasten the solar panels but if they are catching the studs through the shingles, one wonders about leaks.

    Agree with this, I can’t imagine the mess a half-ass installation would cause.

  8. RoyalBlue says:

    It’s called “strategic default”
    I’m hoping to push out “the process” 2 years, currently not make payments and on track to save $150K+ that otherwise would have gone to the bank on this house I am under water with anyway. I am ready to leave NJ and move to central Florida. We figure it’ll take 3 years to rebuild our credit, but who needs credit or a mortgage when you can buy a nice 3bed/2bath home down there for $125K?

  9. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Grim, Confused passed a house with solar panels yesterday mused on a what if on fixing the roof then quickly looked at how it was attached (driving) thought hope the guy new his sh*t putting it in.

  10. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Cobbler from last night 250, one of my main reasons “never happen”between the tree huggers , you ain’t building that in my district/state pols and the freedom from gov crowd they would let it all go down the tubes rather than face reality. It’s all over except the singing people I my not see it but some of you younger folks will.

  11. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Ket thanks for the endorsement , and yes I most likely would not do worse than the last 2 , common sense and balls have left the building, they surely would be an improvement.

    By the way Happy Easter to all.

  12. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Another plank on the energy plan , no more ethanol I believe the figure is 40 % of crop.Use to feed live stock/people bring down the cost of food.

  13. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Just think corn feed American beef cheap, charred animal flesh Americas favorite.

  14. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Feed = fed , more coffee.

  15. outofnj says:


    What are your thoughts on Miami housing? Looks like uptick in house prices recently. Decent-looking houses around 300k with 3k in taxes and nice weather. Compared to NJ, it looks almost too good to be true?

  16. freedy says:

    just how bad is the student loan thing going to get? how can these students ever repay these loans? i ‘ve been speaking to some parents who have kids who will owe 120k , 160k 50k ,they say oh well , he/she will get a job. oh, she’s staying at the house with us until she finds a job. How stupid can we get

  17. nj escapee says:

    15, outofnj , I love Miami. It is a great place to visit but not sure about living there. There are lots of places at 50, 60, 70% or more off peak. Investors are buying up a lot of the distressed properties. I would recommend a trip down to take a look for youself. You may want to take a look at Kendall a close in suburb which has plenty of shopping close to downtown Miami, Baptist Hospital.

  18. outofnj says:

    escapee, thanks will do, next weekend.

    just curious, why “but not sure about living there”?
    Too crowded? Not safe? Schools suck?

  19. JC says:

    Re solar panels: This has been my thought, too. I don’t want a dish on my roof, let alone solar panels. I just don’t trust anyone to not f*** it up just yet.

    As for Miami, depends on how long you want to live there, because it will be under water in about 30 years.

  20. serenity now says:

    Posts 1,2,3 Hobo comes out guns a-blazin this morning.

  21. cobbler says:

    mike [12]
    Corn ethanol is a very convoluted way to transform natural gas (that goes into making nitrogen fertilizers) plus federal subsidies into a mediocre substitute for gasoline. If subsidy is pulled, and oil and NG stay where they are (I guess we need a LNG export duty to achieve this, which will be good for many other reasons as well, e.g. keeping the U.S. petrochemical industry competitive) there are several decent ways to make synfuels (Fischer-Tropsch, MTG, and some others). Pickens plan for CNG-fueled trucks is another option. We should sponsor corn ethanol only when our corn exports’ value exceeds our oil imports.

  22. nj escapee says:

    outofn, re 19, that’s all bs being spewed by the global warmimg / fear mongering algore crowd. Look at what happened in St Louis this weekend. Miami has a lot of neighborhoods which you may not want to invest in like anywhere else

  23. marilyn says:

    I just have to type this and get this off my chest.

    My brother in law and wife are morons. They are all about looking rich and they are poor. They dont own anything. Everything is mortgaged, leased, credit. The funny thing is this moron is making 200K a year. Runs his own business and it can make some money at times. So what do they do…………..

    They buy a house in Armonk, NY. 1.8 million. They go crazy fixing it up for about 300,000 yes that right. They only put down about 200,000 on 1.8 and yes you guessed it, they have finally after 2 years have sold it thank GOD!!


  24. House Whine says:

    18. Florida is not known for having particularly good public schools. Even the Catholic school my friend sent her children too in Florida was not up to par to those around here.

  25. marilyn says:

    part 2

    The MORONS, well they are going to down scale. This is good, he is only getting out the house 150,000K back so they have to rent because the APostles wont live in a dump for 800,000 so they will rent. So to downscale they decide to rent in a nice down scale area New Caanan, CT!!! This is a joke!! 5,300 in rent a month. Thats downscaling?????????? Am I missing something? What ? New Canaan is downscaling. Let the spending begin………………………………………………………………!!!!

    This moron borrowed off his 401k, his life insurance and they are now downscaling to the richest town in East Coast? Am I missing something?

    Ohh but IM jealous, I like with the hillbillies. Listen I am saving!!!!!! I am retired and not going back to work ever!! I guess I am just pissed off that no ones sees how stupid they are.

  26. NJGator says:

    Montclair’s Spring Real Estate Market Hasn’t Sprung Yet

    Real estate agents say the Montclair market is still not turning a corner

    To hear Realtors tell it, this is not your typical spring market. Some homes are being reduced by $50,000 to $100,000 in Montclair after sitting for weeks; others are simply not moving due to unrealistic pricetags.

    “In short, sell-through is low, meaning buyers are cautious and don’t see value and don’t want to fix/remodel anything major and many of our vintage homes need a good deal of updating, as they always have, to reflect current tastes,” said Roberta Baldwin at The New Keller Williams NJ Metro Group.

    She said that—while spring historically is the season for selling—it’s also the season for holidays, making summer plans, and for performing garden maintenance.

    “So, in the best of times, the real estate market competes with many worthy activities,” Baldwin said.

    Baldwin and others say that homes priced above $1 million in Montclair are selling fairly well.

    But she said there’s a lot of inventory when it comes to the true sweet spot of Montclair real estate—properties priced between $600,000 and $1 million.

    It “may take months to reduce that inventory—and we’re still seeing more houses coming on,” Baldwin said. “One thing this definitely isn’t the season for: unmotivated sellers who tell their agents from square one that they don’t have to sell or that they’ll pull their homes off the market if they don’t get their price.

    “These are the listings that reflect poorly on our absorption rate in a challenging market and help create the current situation,” she said.

  27. Essex says:

    24. Surprisingly enough I heard from someone I know that they moved from Livingston to a Tampa Suburb and their kids were actually behind. But who knows.

  28. A.West says:

    The superiority of NJ schools is a myth spun by realtors and the NJ teachers union to justify overinflated prices and salaries. I’m sure there are a lot of decent NJ schools, but they are definitely high cost operations, moreso than necessary to teach the kids. The best predictor of school performance is the socioeconomic status of the parents in the surrounding area. Very good schools/teaching methods can boost performance, and bad ones can hurt it, but kids tend to perform up to parent expectations.

  29. Confused In NJ says:

    28.A.West says:
    April 24, 2011 at 7:54 pm
    The superiority of NJ schools is a myth spun by realtors and the NJ teachers union to justify overinflated prices and salaries. I’m sure there are a lot of decent NJ schools, but they are definitely high cost operations, moreso than necessary to teach the kids. The best predictor of school performance is the socioeconomic status of the parents in the surrounding area. Very good schools/teaching methods can boost performance, and bad ones can hurt it, but kids tend to perform up to parent expectations

    When I moved to New Providence NJ from Brooklyn NY, my fourth grade son switched from PS172 in Brooklyn to Salt Brook School in New Providence and was way ahead of the students in New Providence. Surprised me then, as the school looked so much newer and better.

  30. Outofstater says:

    #30 Japan’s pension fund is liquidating assets to write checks as promised to the old folks. They are also hauling money back onshore to pay for the Fukushima mess. Oh and China said today that they’re thinking about dumping about 2/3 of their US dollars. Nothing to worry about though.

  31. New in FL says:

    RoyalBlue #8

    Just be aware that many HOAs in FL will require a minimum credit score, even if you only want to rent. And most houses built in FL since around 1980, except infill or teardown / build, are in HOAs. You might be able to write a check for a house, but you will still have a hard time finding a place to live.

  32. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    This is a terrific example of the smartest people in the room missing the forest for the trees.

    Their theory is that underwear is the last thing we buy, so if buying spikes, it means that the consumer is back.

    I have an alternate theory: The consumer has also been bombarded with stories about weak dollars and commodities skyrocketing, including cotton. So, perhaps many consumers did what I did, and went out to stock up on something that they don’t give much thought to, like underwear, socks, and jeans (and, in my case, a whole lot more. My favorte Brooks Bros. dress shirts went way up in price. Am I worried? Nope, I have several in reserve).

    Might that explain why underwear sales spiked when other consumer discretionary sales haven’t?

  33. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Some good news at least.

    Gotta love the Knicks–ten years without a playoff victory. Not one simpering opening round win. A decade of futility. At least they have ‘melo to assauge the pain.

  34. Knicks headed for a 21-61 next year. What an absolutely suck-ass team.

  35. Hoo boy.

    “All those who were hoping global stock markets would surge tomorrow based on a ridiculous rumor that China would revalue the CNY by 10% will have to wait. Instead, China has decided to serve the world another surprise. Following last week’s announcement by PBoC Governor Zhou (Where’s Waldo) Xiaochuan that the country’s excessive stockpile of USD reserves has to be urgently diversified, today we get a sense of just how big the upcoming Chinese defection from the “buy US debt” Nash equilibrium will be. Not surprisingly, China appears to be getting ready to cut its USD reserves by roughly the amount of dollars that was recently printed by the Fed, or $2 trilion or so. And to think that this comes just as news that the Japanese pension fund will soon be dumping who knows what. So, once again, how about that “end of QE” again?”

  36. How long will it be before I can order a 10 million dollar hamburger at Per Se?

  37. Hyperinflation, dead ahead.

    Hope everybody choked down all the bad chocolate bunnies and other assorted crap during this miserable day on which everybody pretends to love Jesus.

  38. Something about flipping on the TV and watching all kinds of Catholic high priests- who continually cover for s<xu@l predators and financial crooks- preside over the canned, meaningless Easter "festivities".

  39. OTOH, it’s really funny to be in a house full of Jews on Easter. The unintentional humor is off the meter.

  40. Shore Guy says:


    Those poor, poor people. It is about time we had a government program to help folks like them

  41. A.West says:

    I don’t even pretend.
    And I took my chocolate at 85% strength, extra dark. No milk chocolate bunny b.s. this year.

  42. Dan says:


    You mean New Yorkers now don’t want to pay $700,000 for a 4 bed 1 1/2 bath house? But it’s a train town……with diversity!!!!!

  43. cobbler says:

    west [28]
    Indirectly, the schools from state to state can be compared by the National Merit Scholarship cutoff score, see

    NJ is among the 3 highest scoring states.
    I am not saying we have very good schools here, just that on average they are better than elsewhere…

  44. NWNJHighlander says:

    First off, my PC weny nuts tonight on the commodities gap up. Silver hit 49.70ish…

    Secondly, moving to central Florida…. I just got to say that in the Orlando area there are only two decent school districts, first is Dr. Phillips and the second is Winter Park.
    When I was in H.S. in the 90’s my parents were thinking of moving to the area, as a sophomore in a middling NW NJ HS I already was beyond the requirements for graduation in Dr Phillips.

    And the schools were scary, the bathrooms and bathroom stalls did NOT have doors, due to kids getting beatdowns in the bathrooms, and security guards walking through them constantly, and this was at the time the newest (open for less than half a school year) and highest ranking high school in the region.

    the citydata forums for central Florida have good info on school systems.

  45. “Over the past few years, mainstream analysts have shown a tenacious blind faith in the U.S. economy and the dollar that goes far beyond religion to the point of mindless cvltism, so, when even they begin to question the future of American finance (as has been occurring more and more everyday), you know its time to worry. For those that have been following my work since 2007, the events of the past few months have not been a surprise at all, however, for those just waking up to the ongoing implosion of our fiscal infrastructure, the bubbling inflationary meltdown just over the horizon and the nightmare unfolding around our national debt is rather shocking. Living through a full spectrum catastrophe is, to say the least, confusing, especially when you have no idea where the whole thing began. Until now, the mainstream media has provided nothing but economic fantasy for the masses. They have satiated the public with what amounts to financial toddler talk for helpless preschool minds averse to any research beyond their daily 15 minute sippy cup of New York Times, CNN, MSNBC or FOX cable news sound bites. I mean, have you ever actually stopped and read a Paul Krugman article more than once? Or listened carefully to an MSNBC economic piece? It’s like being violently accosted by a band of slobbering mental deficients with securitized ARM mortgages stuffed in their pants. Of course, fewer and fewer people are now buying what these hucksters are selling. With gasoline nearing $5 a gallon, grain prices doubling, and shelf prices beginning to skyrocket, it’s hard for even the most ignorant suburban schlep to remain oblivious to the problem anymore. We are no longer on the edge of the abyss; we have fallen into it head first…”

  46. Confused In NJ says:

    46. Sad but True.

  47. Any questions?

    “There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.”

    -von Mises

  48. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Gotta love EWR. Terminal A in lockdown. Passenger tells me that she saw TSA and PA cops take away a woman of apparent ME descent. I’m at gate but no guarantee that I’m getting out of here.

  49. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (46) hobo.

    Truer words never spoken.

    Lockdown in Terminal A over. Nothing to see here, go about your business.

  50. 3b says:

    #44 At what cost? As far as HS rankings, in Newweeks annual ranking of the nations 1000 best hight schools, not one NJ school ranks in the top 20. And of the 8 in the top 20, 8 of them are in Fla. As far as the top 100, only one NJ school makes the list, and ironically it is in Jersey City (Mc Nair, I believe)

  51. plume (50)-

    Wake me when the summary executions begin at EWR.

  52. 3b (51)-

    My feeling is that one overriding principle informs all these “Top 100 Schools” lists: the lists are created in advance, then the stats are backfilled to goalseek the predetermined result.

  53. Dan says:


    I’m just not sure Newsweek is the right gauge to use for best schools in the country. No offsense, but NJ kids find their way due to grades and SAT scores in every college in the country and certainly no shortage of NJ public school kids in the Ivys or top state schools.

    I always remember the story here a couple of years ago how Edison was one of the best places to live in NJ and we noticed that an Indian woman had wrote it. Gee, I wonder if there was any selection bias for Edison there?

  54. nj escapee says:

    51, just an observation, FL has an advantage over higher cost / taxed states as they have been managing with a lower cost basis. I wonder what the impact will be to all those high cost districts if they are forced to lower school funding for whatever reason.

  55. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Nom great I’m going to mogadishu…… i mean detroit tonight out of terminal A

  56. C’mon. There are about 15-20 schools in the US (virtually all of them private) that actively teach and demand that kids learn to synthesize and crystallize original thought by working a curriculum that is- at least loosely- based on the “Great Books/Heritage of Western Thought” model. The rest of these places are discipline factories, repositories of overwrought technology (the use of which is actually a barrier to real learning) and brainwash operations.

    Call me a curmudgeon and call me old-fashioned, but I have a daughter who’s graduating in the top 10% of her class from a Blue Ribbony HS in a few weeks and will very likely get her head handed to her for the first couple of semesters in college, as she’s chosen to attend a school that will demand she think, rather than complete Scantron tests.

  57. pain (56)-

    Sorry, dude. Weather’s better in Mogadishu.

    I bet the food is, too.

  58. 3b says:

    Who cares about schools and blue ribbons. It appears the age of America is over. ironically this stupid, malcontent, wannabe bitter blog has been talking about just this very thing for quite some time.

  59. The first teacher my daughter will encounter in her life who will offer judgment on both the content and quality of her thought and expression of same will be in college.

    From K-12 in our Blue Ribbony district, teachers are prohibited from exercising judgment or discretion in assessing students’ work, as TPTB have determined:

    1. Most teachers are incapable of doing it.
    2. Any attempt at using judgment or discretion might be construed as discriminatory.

  60. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (56) pain,

    The lockdown was brief, and I am on my plane on time. So long as I can update the blog from Fla in 4 hours, I am happy.

  61. Don’t drink the water in FL. It is laced with stupid powder.

  62. 3b says:

    #54 We can debate back and forth about this. But if our schools our so wonderful and at such a coat, then they should at least be appearing high in these rankings.

    My last one bright/smart is graduating, like Clot’s from a blue ribbony school, and quite frankly is it any better than non blue ribbon, or a school in other states, well I do not think so.

    All the people that buy for the so called great school systems might find out when they are all done, that in many cases they are not what they thought they would or should be for the price premium and taxes.

  63. Al Mossberg says:


    You see that move in silver last night? It hit 49.70 up over 3 bucks before it retraced. The interesting thing is the move from 47 to 49.70 happened in less than 15 minutes.

  64. Re : School System Ratings…..

    There happens to be an unbiased rating agency for comparing school systems. The NAEP has comparison data for 4th and 8th graders over time. As you might have expected, student scores have no correlation to money spent.

    “The National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) reading exam scores released today show that despite massive spending increases in education, test scores have barely budged over the last seven years and two-thirds of the state’s public school children unable to demonstrate proficiency.

    While funding (local, state and federal) for public elementary and secondary education in New York State grew by a whopping 52 percent between the 2001-02 and 2008-09 school years, both 4th- and 8th-grade reading proficiency rates increased by only a single percentage point during the same period: in 4th grade, the proficiency rate increased from 35 percent in 2002 to 36 percent in 2009; in 8th grade, it increased from 32 percent to 33 percent.”

  65. 3b (63)-

    I, for one, moved to where I am now for the Blue Ribbony, minty fresh feeling of superior educational sunshine between my toes.

    With #1 now graduating, all I can say is that it was probably one of the monumental mistakes I’ve ever made…so much so, that we’re actively considering moving so that my 2nd (who’s a year away from the same gulag) won’t be subjected to the same lobotomy crew.

    I would feel this way even if I weren’t 100K underwater on my house since purchasing in ’05, too.

  66. nj escapee says:

    Hobo, You’re so right it’s scary. Was comparing school websites in Florida and NJ. Primary concern in all schools is fairness, and how well the student gets along, scholarlship seems to be a distant second. When did they make this change?

  67. Dink says:

    3B #51,

    The Newsweek rankings uses one metric only (# of AP Tests taken / # of Graduating Seniors) to rank all high schools across the country. Its a decent metric but using it on its own is problematic in comparing all schools.

    Unfortunately this list and many others like them (NJ Monthly’s for example) do go quite a ways in forming the perception of a school’s quality rather than actually measuring it.

  68. 3b says:

    #66 clot: Anybody that wants to know about the schools should ask the kids. ( time out of 10 they are right. Forget about the self appointed experts (usually mothers) who in many cases are just cheerleaders. Ironically may of the same people who cheer on the schools have never been to a BOE or Mayor and Council meeting in their life.

  69. Juice X says:

    re; #67 – The latest jihad against Bullying in a prime example of why the kids aren’t learning. If you cannot stand up for yourself in school what will happen to you when you graduate to the real world?

  70. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Juice I look forward to grinding them into blubbering masses of goo when they enter the worforce. I’m already doing it to milennials. Favorite line right now; where you raised to be pathetically incompetent, with the backbone of an invertebrate, or is it genetically encoded. Go ahead call your mommy I’ll be just as nice to her also.

    Needless to say human resources wants me to go to sensitivity training

  71. A.West says:

    Don’t worry about your daughter being asked to think in college. Most of the other students there will also have graduated from the department of propaganda. The big challenge in college will be thinking independently without getting dragged down by peers and professors who hate that. Good practice for the rest of her life.

  72. All Hype says:

    “Needless to say human resources wants me to go to sensitivity training.”

    That’s because 99% of HR people are one step above pre-school teachers. Say “Boo” to them and they are a blubbering mass of goo. God I hate corporate America right now. Success is truly no longer rewarded. Just the ability to be nice and get by. We really have turned ourselves into a bunch of wussies. No wonder we are going down the tubes.

  73. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Hype don’t you miss being in a satellite office far from the corporate PC police? Sure it never got personal but stupidity got called to the mat often. I feel like I rangle toddlers in business casual on a daily basis

  74. Nicholas says:

    Not sure how they fasten the solar panels but if they are catching the studs through the shingles, one wonders about leaks.

    Agree with this, I can’t imagine the mess a half-ass installation would cause.

    My brother-in-law is a roofer and he was talking yesterday about a roof that he had to go inspect because the homeowner was claiming that it wasn’t installed properly and that it caused a leak, rotting wood all over the place. Turns out that someone installed a dish antenna on the roof nailing right through the shingles.

    The roof will have to be replaced because of four nails.

  75. Outofstater says:

    #70 I disagree. Two of my kids were bullied and it was miserable. #1 kid was bullied and never said a word to us about it. He hated going to school every day. The teachers were aware of it and did nothing. After two years of it, he picked the kid up, slammed him against a locker and cut his lip. #2 kid was bullied after the anti-bullying laws went on the books. She told me about it, I contacted the teacher and the principal and they stopped it. I was very grateful. It is tough to be a short fifth grader who is kicked, pushed, hit and intimidated every day by a girl who is about a foot taller. If it hadn’t stopped, I would have filed a police report. Abuse is abuse and it is against the law.

  76. escapee (67)-

    I think the change came around the same time that the judiciary branch of gubmint decided en masse that “fairness” and the “public good” trump rule of law.

    All this is working out really well, don’t you think?

  77. All Hype says:

    I surely do miss being in a satellite office. People here cannot handle anything that is outside the box. Truly sad actually. As a lot of these people are going to get laid off in the next 12-18 months they will be eaten alive at their new companies (if they can find jobs) by people who know how to get the job done rather than expect 4 other departments to do the work for them.

  78. NJGator says:

    Re NJ/Florida – I know my own experience is ancient history by now, but when I arrived at the UF Honors program, many of my in-state classmates came with IB HS diplomas and at least a year of college credit before they started. I had a decent amount of AP classes in my high school and probably started out with a whole semester’s worth of credit, but I didn’t have access to any of the things these kids had in their “inferior” schools. They also had a prepaid tuition program that was awesome. Parents were able to lock in tuition rates as well as room and board at birth for pennies (back in the early 1990s in-state tuition was only about $50/credit hour). My pals who qualified for Florida Bright Futures scholarships whose parents had enrolled them in the prepaid program were actually getting paid to go to school.

    They do seem to be phasing the prepaid program out. My friend who has a son born at the end of 2006 could have prepaid 4 years of tuition and fees for him in one lump sump payment of $12k. Paying out over 5 years now costs her $250/month. She has a daughter that was born in 2010 and her tuition prepayment skyrocketed to over $800/month.

  79. kettle1^2 says:


    I was recently working on some process development with another engineer who has been out of school for about 2 years. His directions were to execute the modified process exactly as detailed in the upgraded batch record and stop the process and call me if anything at all deviated. He comes back at the end of the day and tells me the run failed. Of all the directions he failed to follow the best was that they sprayed active product all over the room ( and the people int he room) because they were using a high pressure pump to transfer a high viscosity creme and only put 3 of 7 bolts on the head plate that covers the pump chamber! When asked why he did that , he answered that the operator said they ran the pump like that all the time it would be fine, and that it would have caused a delay if he went and found all of the bolts.

    Part of his directions were to enforce the batch record to the T because the operators involved were/are notorious for doing things the way they want, not the way they are directed. The junior engineer is lucky he only got dosed with hormones and didn’t get someone killed or injured if the head plate had completely blown off.

  80. Shore Guy says:

    Measuring the quality if schools by measuring the achievement ofthe top 10% of graduates is a fool’s errand and reminds me ofthe officials who gage the health of the economy by looking at macro numbets and ignore what is happening to the vast middle. Look at the achievement level of thee middle range of the bell curve and then tell me how various schools compare. The really smart kids and the ones from wealthy and well- educated families will tend to do well anyplace. The low end thinkers are going to reach their peak regardless of how good a district is. The vast middle is he place to measure.

  81. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Ket lucky little noob, why I never listened to floor folks when I was in GMP QA. Lost one job because of it. The other I left because I hated fighting the system all the time.

    Hype, looking at other opportunities right now as I just steered two folks to our ethics office from one clin ops team. Just conducted 3 audits all are caution and unsatisfactory managements response, well they keep telling us everything is fine. Your audits are too over the top to be believable. All warning letter stuff, worried they are going to hurt someone in the trial with an improper diagnosis. All gets ignored in the bastion of PC diversity multiculturalism hell that I work at.

    I swear out loud daily.

  82. Confused In NJ says:

    ..David Stockman: “Crony Capitalism” Has Killed the Free Market and Democracy
    By Peter Gorenstein | Daily Ticker – 3 hours ago

    “I believe we no longer have free market capitalism and we no longer have a democracy,” says David Stockman, the blunt-talking former Michigan Congressman and Director of the OMB during the Reagan administration.

    What now exists at the heart of the U.S. economy, Stockman argues, is “crony capitalism” – a system that benefits and even rigs the system in favor of America’s banks and bankers at the cost of average Americans. It’s a system built on the back of government-issued bailouts and free money. “The Fed is the great enabler” through its free money policies, which “generate results the market wouldn’t otherwise provide for,” he says.

    For example, banks – which caused the 2008 economic and financial crisis – are enjoying profits once again as so-called “risk assets” reflate. Meanwhile, well-meaning members of the middle class intent on saving cash continue to get “savaged” (Stockman’s word) when they keep money in low-yielding savings accounts and rely on a dollar that continues to lose value.

    When Bernanke & Co. allow banks to borrow money at no cost for so long it turns “capital markets into a rip-roaring casino that really is not productive for the real main street economy and is generating windfall gains for to a very limited number of people for no good purpose,” Stockman tells Dan Gross in the accompanying interview.

    These policies are nothing new, Stockman says, but “crony capitalism” hit new levels of absurdity in the recent past with the bank bailouts and the auto bailouts.

    How do we get back on track?

    According to Stockman, the Fed should raise rates immediately and end the possibility of more bailouts.

  83. vodka (80)-

    Is this how you once ended up in a room filled with oxy dust?

  84. pain (82)-

    Sounds like nothing in your workplace that a psychosis-induced shooting spree can’t fix. :)

  85. kettle1^2 says:


    Nope. That was due to mechanics bypassing safeties and not telling anyone. It was a cloud containing a mixture of pure oxy, albuteral and amphetamines. (Pain, safety bypass in a fluid bed drier caused a dust collector on the unit to back flow into the room)

    I was on a 24hr continuous high and then prayed for death on the way down.

  86. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Hobo they already had one at one of our facilites before I started.

    Ket awesome, sounds like the idiots who didn’t clamp down the safeties on 100 L HPLC columns and got sprayed with heated denatured protein. 2nd degree burns and an entire line shutdown later they all got fired. Another one was all the HEPA fitration failed in a plant and we got super high doses of penicillin.

    I don’t miss manufacturing

  87. kettle1^2 says:


    No sense of pain, able to run a 4 min mile and freakishly strong all while my sense of judgment was out the window. After exposure i felt like i was in a furnace i was so hot. So i walked outside in the middle of January took off my shirt and sat on a bench for a few minutes. It seemed like a normal course of action at the time.

  88. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    LOL Ket just put the albuterol and amphetamines together. Sure you could have run a 4 minute mile but your heart would have exploded

  89. kettle1^2 says:


    Mix those 3 substances at a high dose without OD’ing and you would be the police’s worst nightmare on an armed rampage. You would feel no pain, and you would be super amp’ed up and very aggressive.

  90. kettle1^2 says:


    Coming down off a high dose of that mixture is absolute hell. Even a shirt brushing against my skin was painful.

  91. Shore Guy says:

    That exchange sounds like the 80’s SNL skit:

    “I hate when that happens.”

  92. Shore Guy says:

    Perhaps showing The Great Escape on movie night is not a good idea:,0,6354763.story

  93. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Shore that is why if you ask most former and current pharma manufacturing guys what they take when sick the response is usually aspirin. If the mouth breathers don’t care about themseslves on the work line, what makes you think you are getting a safe and effective product.

  94. Kettle1^2 says:


    ever see that movie “max payne”? The scene where he drinks the drugs aftre climbing out of the frozen water, that iscwhat that mixture felt like.

  95. Libtard in the City says:

    I’m back. Hope everyone had a great holiday. Glad to see we are exactly where we left off with petroleum about 5% higher and silver up closer to 10%.

  96. Dan says:

    Carpet guy said warehouse increased carpet costs by $400 and asked us to split difference. Between high gas prices, rising commodities and a Zimbabwe dollar, my reason to think he’s screwing me is highly diminished.

  97. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Ket pass it out if it makes you aim better. Hell baseball playeres were on greenies for years to improve performance

  98. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Don’t worry about the dollar unempoyment piss poor dollar and rising energy prices there is a royal wedding afterall! Everything that is old is new again at least this twit has better teeth than Diana.

    What the f is with all the wedding coverage didn’t our forebears throw off the yoke of the monarchy. Another bit of energy to get the founders spinning. If I saw the queen I would give her the fcking finger, the only one worth a git is Harry as he actually served time in Afghanistan

  99. vodka (86)-

    I can relate. That’s the way I feel after I walk into my office.

  100. pain (87)-

    Sounds like it needs to become standard office procedure there. Way more effective than letting everything become a big HR brouhaha.

    “Hobo they already had one at one of our facilites before I started.”

  101. jamil says:

    “The third Massachusetts House speaker in a row to face criminal charges will appear in U.S. District Court tomorrow as a defendant, in what promises to be a drawn-out, complicated trial.”

    Another politician of unknown political affliation going to jail.
    It is almost like a corruption racket run by one party. I wonder what the headline had been if the political party would have been the other one/sarc

  102. Jamil, when are you gonna figure out most of us here hate both parties about the same?

    They’re both rotten to the core; only diff is that they pander to different sets of fools.

  103. cobbler says:

    gator [79]
    Prepaid tuition plans (at least at the prices that had been offered historically in FL) are unsustainable exactly like the retired state employees health coverage and pension plans. If politicians promise you something for nothing it is a Ponzi scheme and only could last for so long.

  104. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Greetings from warm, humid Plantation, Florida.

    Which looks like the rest of Florida.

  105. Libtard in the City says:

    Cobbler (104): ” Prepaid Tuition Plans”

    I agree. Was always afraid to do one since I would always fear losing the money when the day of reckoning occurred.

  106. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (62) hobo

    No worries. Sticking to alcohol. Charged to my Uncle Sam.

  107. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Nom 105 a trailer park full or tweekers and disney employees? Have a good trip! I’m off to Mogadishu hope I don’t get kidnapped for ransom.

  108. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (40) hoboclot

    Jews on Easter.

    I had a friend (jewish) who would call me on Fathers Day to wish me a happy one. This was long before marriage and kids.

    So I would call him on Easter…

  109. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (108) pain.

    1.5 days of meetings and never leaving the hotel. Not my idea of a good time, but I don’t see much else around here.

  110. A.West says:

    “When the country needs the accumulation of capital, they demand that we soak the rich. When the country needs more savings, they demand a “redistribution of income.” They demand more jobs and less profits—more jobs and fewer factories—more jobs and no fuel, no oil, no coal, no “pollution”—but, above all, more goods for free to more consumers, no matter what happens to jobs, to factories, or to producers.”

    Ayn Rand called it the first time in 1974, rings true today more than ever.

  111. jamil says:

    Hobo “They’re both rotten to the core; only diff is that they pander to different sets of fools.”

    One party wants to increase the power and size of the Gov (dare I say “Imperial Government”), which leads to higher misuse and corruption. The other party wants to minimize the power and size of the Gov. These two outcomes are vastly different and I rather have minimal Gov focusing on the essential federal functions rather than to micromanage every aspect of my life. There is a difference and if you don’t see it, you are even dumber than I thought. No offense.

  112. HousePoorMeAnother says:

    Lurking here for years; found a house for a good/fair price that we want, made an offer, and we are under contract. Cue the derogatory comments…

    I’ve seen mention of a “super Inspector” here before; anyone care to share his name?

  113. sas3 says:

    #112, The other party wants to minimize the power and size of the Gov.

    Which party would that be?

  114. Libtard in the City says:

    Let me correct Jamil,

    One parties catch line is that they, “want to minimize the power and size of the Gov.”

    Guess who caught it?

  115. Libtard in the City says:


    The uber inspector is:

    Take the whole day off when he comes.

  116. A.West says:

    No party, especially while commanding some amount of influence on government workings. There are maybe a handful of Republicans willing to say in theory that they would roll back government to the pre-FDR era. Maybe one or two would actually vote for such actions. Most is marketing hype on talk radio. I applaud the intention, but doubt their willingness to follow through, given that they also believe “you are your brothers’ keeper”.

  117. cobbler says:

    West [111]
    The Randian argument held water well when the U.S. economy dominated the world. Then, really, more profits and more savings translated into more factories and more jobs. It still does, but in the globalized world these factories and jobs are not on these shores; moreover, profits and savings are achieved by closing the factories and eliminating jobs here. If the choice is between low-tax regime where profits and savings flow from the U.S. to China and are invested there, jobs are lost here and the jobless fall into abject poverty, and a high-tax regime where the jobless are at least able not to eat dog food, I’d rather choose the latter. It is clearly worse for the Chinese workers – but better for the majority of the American ones.

  118. nj escapee says:

    cobbler, you’re talking to a Jim Rogers wannabe. He thinks Asia will better protect his family’s wealth. I wouldn’t bet my dog’s life on that.

  119. Essex says:

    I’m pretty sure that an IB program is superior to the AP stuff they offer in NJ.

    Here is some interesting reading:

  120. Libtard in the City says:


    Reminds me of when all of the colleges in NJ became universities. Rather than forcing the schools to meet higher requirements to become a university, they dumbed down the requirements. I’m sure Rutgers and Princeton were oh so happy with their new companions, Montclair State and Jersey City, Kean and Rowan (Glassboro) and eventually Willy P.

  121. A.West says:

    Communist China is for many companies the low tax regime compared to the “capitalist” US. High tax rates and high regulation is one reason why lots of companies decide to locate outside the US. The US dominated the world because it was once a relative HAVEN for capital in the world. It could be again with the right ideas. So you’re posing a false alternative, low taxes and capital outflows aren’t connected.

    I’m hardly a Rogers fan. I certainly don’t think China’s government has much interest in protecting property rights, which is why few want to keep all of their eggs in that basket. I suspect there’s more political risk there than most businessmen assume. Singapore might, acting as the Switzerland of Asia.

  122. Outofstater says:

    Watch out for IB programs. Some are located in low-performing schools or districts (like Linden) and the students have long bus rides. There is considerable pressure on the students to perform at very high levels at all times. Some kids can take it; others can’t. I know of a student who took an hour long bus ride each way to the one of the worst schools in our district and the pressure was so intense, she developed migraines and dropped out of school altogether. Her goal was to get into Georgia Tech. I suspect she would have made it easily from her neighborhood high school.

  123. cobbler says:

    west [122]
    Chinese taxes are not an issue (actually, they are rather high for the top few % of individuals, and not low for the businesses once the incentives expire; also they have a significant VAT). The issue is that when a widget wholesale costs $100, uses $20 worth of materials, and requires 2 man-hours to make here or 4 hrs in China, China production wins hands down even if the pre-tax profit there is taxed at 50% and here at zero.

  124. sas3 says:

    The US dominated the world because it was once a relative HAVEN for capital in the world.

    I thought it was because of the top schools, top companies, top research facilities, and a culture fairly welcoming towards immigrants that want to work hard or work smart (with warts and all). The last thing in the mind of a fresh student coming to US (that ends up eventually staying) is the tax rate!

  125. A.West says:

    You want the US to lead the world in low-skill, low cost labor? Maybe your name is a tip-off. That’s division of labor and gains of trade. The world economy has benefitted from that for centuries. People in the US need to stay ahead of the curve to stay globally competitive. US citizenship plus a high school degree doesn’t guarantee one a top 5% global income and lifestyle anymore. Although the odds would improve if our high schools actually trained people to do something more useful than recite platitudes about loving bunnies on earth day. Most unemployed Americans wouldn’t trade positions with a Chinese manufacturing worker, nor are they interested in paying three times as much for a Margaritaville machine or TV set.

    Your complaints imply that there’s some set of policies (protectionism? redistributive taxes?) that can make people rich without effort or additional productiveness. Sorry, cobbler, there’s no Santa Claus, and no elves to make stuff for you every night.

  126. A.West says:

    You’re confusing cause and effect.
    I’m with you on the immigration thing though. Open borders.

  127. cobbler says:

    west [126]
    Ad hominem attacks on someone’s tag are rather silly…
    Regarding the division of labor – unfortunately, only half of the people are above average, whether in the U.S. or in China. And unfortunately, people whose abilities are seriously below average have really hard time being productive in high-tech fields. An outstanding seamstress frequently makes a terrible software analyst even if she spends a lot of her own, her parents’ and taxpayers (as pell grants, etc.) money going to school. I don’t think that access to cheap TV sets is a good enough justification for bringing half of the country down to the Chinese/Indian standards.

  128. Shore Guy says:


    The REAL reason we led the world in manufacturing is thatbwe abd others bombed the heck out of everyone elses’ plants.

  129. A.West says:

    Shore – I agree. Not getting bombed supports the “haven for capital” thesis. Having a strong military (and a good location) protects property.

  130. A.West says:

    No doubt that the world is getting tougher for some. But you cannot make a typical seamstress create economic value of $50,000 a year. No matter how much trade protection you try. If you do try, people will find it difficult to afford clothes, and will move back to sewing and patching their own.

    I think the most troubling thing is that it’s becoming more difficult to predict the careers of the future. Everyone can’t be a reality TV star or home flipper. It takes years of persistent effort and dedication to become good at something that the world is willing to pay big bucks for. Sorry about the news.

  131. Shore Guy says:

    And, our university system grew beyond the upper crust because of the GI Bill.

  132. jamil (112)-

    I daresay a quick poll of regulars here would probably reveal that a large majority see you as the dupe in this instance.

    I would also interject here that I have been able to counter your specious political arguments with original thought, rather than parroting Limb@ugh/Beck/Maddow-like prattle and straw men.

    “There is a difference and if you don’t see it, you are even dumber than I thought.”

  133. But don’t worry, jamil. You are still tedious and pedantic. We laovthe you.

  134. Shore Guy says:


    As average is really a range centered in the middle of a bell curve, far fewer than half are above average.

  135. west (122)-

    I’m pretty sure they don’t cane people in Switzerland for smoking a little spliff.

    “I’m hardly a Rogers fan. I certainly don’t think China’s government has much interest in protecting property rights, which is why few want to keep all of their eggs in that basket. I suspect there’s more political risk there than most businessmen assume. Singapore might, acting as the Switzerland of Asia.”

  136. Shore Guy says:

    Chi square for $200, Alex.

  137. Ben says:

    The superiority of NJ schools is a myth spun by realtors and the NJ teachers union to justify overinflated prices and salaries. I’m sure there are a lot of decent NJ schools, but they are definitely high cost operations, moreso than necessary to teach the kids. The best predictor of school performance is the socioeconomic status of the parents in the surrounding area. Very good schools/teaching methods can boost performance, and bad ones can hurt it, but kids tend to perform up to parent expectations.


    as a teacher of 2 years, I can agree to a degree. Wow, I rhymed. Parenting is a huge factor in a school’s performance and each town has its own personality and values. Beyond that, I would add that the administration that runs the schools on a day to day basis has a massive influence. I have no doubt that a high performing school would flounder if a new administration took over and didn’t do as good of a job. Another point that I would like to make is that a town full of good kids will attract good teachers so it is somewhat of a 2 way street. Even so, your point still stands as the socioeconomic status being one of the primary indicators of performance. If parents want their students to succeed, they need to personally demand that they perform up to their own expectations.

  138. nj escapee says:

    At the risk of sounding like a liberal weenie, this latest crop of libertarians popping up on Fox and in other media outlets are just a bunch of got miners who want to close the door to others after they were able to game the system to their advantage.

  139. free ipad 2 says:

    Terrific review! This is exactly the type of article that should be shared around the internet. Sad on the Yahoo for not ranking this blog post higher!

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