Welcome to another edition of Lowball!
Lowball! takes a look at home sales from a different perspective. For those new to Lowball!, a lowball offer is when a buyer offers a significantly lower bid than asking in hopes that the seller accepts the offer. We take a list of home sales from the past month and pick out the sales that have the highest percentage difference between original list price and selling price.
The purpose of Lowball! is to show buyers that the market has changed and buyers now have considerably more leverage than sellers. Just a short time ago, Lowball! offers would have been laughed at and discarded, however, not any more. The fact that so many under-asking offers are being accepted is clear proof that the market is changing.The list does not contain all sales, I hand-pick the most interesting sales from the list. These listings might be the highest dollar drops, biggest percentage reductions, or sales in towns that are thought to still be ‘hot’.
Below is a list of all Lowball sales from October 16st through the 31st. I used the 20% off OLP point for this table.
| MLS | Town | OLP | LP | SP | % off OLP | $ off OLP |
| 2258207 | Montague Twp | $324,000 | $324,000 | $113,000 | 65.1% | $211,000 |
| 2294336 | Pompton Lakes Boro | $299,900 | $299,900 | $175,000 | 41.6% | $124,900 |
| 2286311 | Irvington Twp | $250,000 | $180,000 | $155,000 | 38.0% | $95,000 |
| 2090336 | Rahway City | $450,000 | $450,000 | $280,000 | 37.8% | $170,000 |
| 2218947 | Elizabeth City | $419,000 | $339,000 | $290,000 | 30.8% | $129,000 |
| 2281707 | Parsippany-Troy Hills | $199,000 | $149,900 | $140,000 | 29.6% | $59,000 |
| 2266086 | Clinton Town | $375,000 | $299,900 | $265,000 | 29.3% | $110,000 |
| 2277539 | Mount Olive Twp | $479,000 | $459,900 | $340,000 | 29.0% | $139,000 |
| 2256754 | Andover Twp | $189,900 | $149,900 | $135,000 | 28.9% | $54,900 |
| 2288307 | Little Falls Twp | $350,000 | $265,000 | $250,000 | 28.6% | $100,000 |
| 2270205 | Wayne Twp | $1,395,000 | $1,199,000 | $998,500 | 28.4% | $396,500 |
| 2290931 | Franklin Twp | $424,900 | $424,900 | $305,000 | 28.2% | $119,900 |
| 2243717 | Blairstown Twp | $799,900 | $579,000 | $579,000 | 27.6% | $220,900 |
| 2269817 | Franklin Lakes Boro | $1,449,000 | $1,279,000 | $1,050,000 | 27.5% | $399,000 |
| 2281901 | Millburn Twp | $619,000 | $519,000 | $450,000 | 27.3% | $169,000 |
| 2248940 | South Orange Village | $759,000 | $619,000 | $560,000 | 26.2% | $199,000 |
| 2244292 | Roxbury Twp | $399,000 | $329,000 | $295,000 | 26.1% | $104,000 |
| 2247903 | Hopatcong Boro | $399,000 | $330,000 | $295,000 | 26.1% | $104,000 |
| 2283692 | Branchville Boro | $269,900 | $229,900 | $200,000 | 25.9% | $69,900 |
| 2269828 | Vernon Twp | $449,900 | $349,900 | $335,000 | 25.5% | $114,900 |
| 2265119 | Wayne Twp | $1,250,000 | $1,100,000 | $937,000 | 25.0% | $313,000 |
| 2208708 | East Amwell Twp | $2,200,000 | $1,850,000 | $1,650,000 | 25.0% | $550,000 |
| 2279759 | West Milford Twp | $499,900 | $399,900 | $378,000 | 24.4% | $121,900 |
| 2305014 | Edison Twp | $384,900 | $329,900 | $292,500 | 24.0% | $92,400 |
| 2237997 | Franklin Lakes Boro | $1,249,000 | $1,090,000 | $955,000 | 23.5% | $294,000 |
| 2318103 | Bridgewater Twp | $483,537 | $483,537 | $370,000 | 23.5% | $113,537 |
| 2263755 | Elmwood Park Boro | $129,900 | $119,999 | $100,000 | 23.0% | $29,900 |
| 2258476 | Hampton Boro | $349,000 | $298,500 | $270,000 | 22.6% | $79,000 |
| 2268366 | Franklin Twp | $339,990 | $265,000 | $265,000 | 22.1% | $74,990 |
| 2269709 | Vernon Twp | $249,900 | $210,000 | $195,000 | 22.0% | $54,900 |
| 2270139 | White Twp | $115,000 | $95,900 | $90,000 | 21.7% | $25,000 |
| 2286452 | Wyckoff Twp | $1,052,400 | $975,000 | $825,000 | 21.6% | $227,400 |
| 2292687 | Dover Town | $489,900 | $399,900 | $385,000 | 21.4% | $104,900 |
| 2283873 | Roselle Park Boro | $349,900 | $329,900 | $275,000 | 21.4% | $74,900 |
| 2265677 | Stillwater Twp | $384,900 | $324,900 | $305,000 | 20.8% | $79,900 |
| 2277774 | Scotch Plains Twp | $725,000 | $659,900 | $575,000 | 20.7% | $150,000 |
| 2294651 | Montville Twp | $1,348,800 | $1,199,000 | $1,070,000 | 20.7% | $278,800 |
| 2258958 | Rockaway Twp | $529,000 | $450,000 | $420,000 | 20.6% | $109,000 |
| 2253715 | Kinnelon Boro | $479,000 | $399,900 | $380,500 | 20.6% | $98,500 |
| 2260619 | Stillwater Twp | $245,000 | $199,000 | $195,000 | 20.4% | $50,000 |
| 2308138 | Lambertville City | $319,000 | $319,000 | $255,000 | 20.1% | $64,000 |
| 2293297 | Mine Hill Twp | $339,000 | $284,900 | $271,000 | 20.1% | $68,000 |
| 2265540 | Morris Twp | $1,250,000 | $1,050,000 | $999,500 | 20.0% | $250,500 |
| 2267075 | Verona Twp | $525,000 | $449,000 | $420,000 | 20.0% | $105,000 |
| 2111341 | Woodbridge Twp | $349,900 | $299,900 | $280,000 | 20.0% | $69,900 |
I’ve been waiting for the list with price cuts all in excess of 20 percent, I think it says an awful lot about where we’re headed.
Fed Chairman Warns on Home Financing
By JEANNINE AVERSA
The Associated Press
Wednesday, November 1, 2006; 1:10 PM
WASHINGTON — With the explosion of financial choices, consumers must continually sharpen their assessments of whether certain mortgages or other investment products make sense for them, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke recommended Wednesday.
“Some evidence, including recent Federal Reserve research on consumers holding adjustable-rate mortgages, suggests that awareness could be improved, particularly among borrowers with lower incomes and education levels,” Bernanke said in prepared remarks to a conference here on community development.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/01/AR2006110102035.html?nav=rss_business
Are you going to include the XLS like last time for all the price reductions?
Thanks Grim…..
i noticed no listings from westfield, summit or chatham. that’s because prices are holding up better than the ‘second’ tier towns.
ot sorry but check this out
ooh please help
http://newyork.craigslist.org/stn/rfs/228672550.html
Please note, even with double digit percentage reductions, these homes are still incredibly overpriced.
Want a good laugh?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/intangible/214002766/
Richard,
Come on now. There are also no listings from Paterson, East Orange, or Newark. Why is that? Are these top tier towns now? Or is there a ‘third tier’ that is holding up better than the second? I’d consider Franklin Lakes and Millburn top tier towns, why are they represented here?
XLS will be posted up a bit later, I don’t have FTP access here.
jb
Hey Richard,
I hope you hang around for a few more months. i expect you to apologize to everyone for being blinded by greed.
grim:
for you to say: “Please note, even with double digit percentage reductions, these homes are still incredibly overpriced” is a completely irresponsible thing for you to do considering time and again you are just presenting the “facts” and not being partisan about anything. More than anyone you should know that if someone bought these homes at the reduced price then clearly they are NOT overpriced as they actually sold.
I think you have become just like many of your commenters on the site and this statement proves it. It’s a shame.
This is just the beginning greedy grubbers.
hehehe
Wait a few more months and gluts of scared inventory will pile on.
LOWBALL…..Bleed”em Dry!
Get compensated for your time patience and effort…WORRY!
BOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAA
Bob
see grim…your irresponsible statement sounds like something bob would say (and trust me, that’s not a compliment)
“..More than anyone you should know that if someone bought these homes at the reduced price then clearly they are NOT overpriced as they actually sold.”
So if someone told you to pay list on a car , you would?
HELLO!
WAKEUP!
ANYONE HOME?
Bleed’em Dry! 40-50% discounts….Make’em pay.
BOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAA
Bob
I read this blog for among other things, to hear the opinions of grim and others. If “facts” were all I was interested in, I would spend more time at the National Association of Realtors website.
bob: learn how to read. i didn’t say i’d pay what someone told me. these houses sold, however. so they cannot be overpriced if they sold. want me to draw a diagram for you?
any jay…grim is the one, who in the very beginning of this blog, and many times since, has basically said he has no horse in this race and is basically presenting the “facts” as they are. I think his comment was firstly, factually wrong (as the houses actually sold), and secondly, hurts his ability to be fair-minded when it’s clear his opinion drives the presentation of numbers.
but go ahead, attack me and be immature about it…
anon: November 1st, 2006 at 2:07 pm
You are kidding, right? Usually I ignore trolls on this board but I have to comment on your reply. You say “if someone bought these homes at the reduced price then clearly they are NOT overpriced as they actually sold.” So if my house is really worth 500k and I list it for 1m and sell it for 800k that means that by your thought process that my house was not overpriced since it sold. WOW!!!!!!
does it make it true if you type it 50 times…i don’t think anyone takes you seriously when you act like a 5 year old…just an observation.
learn how to read. i didn’t say i’d pay what someone told me. these houses sold, however. so they cannot be overpriced if they sold. want me to draw a diagram for you?
HELLO?
WAKEUP?
SO YOU ARE SAYING EVERYONE IS RATIONAL AND DOES NOT MAKE IDIOTIC DECISIONS?
SPRING 2007 HOUSING BUST….IT’S A COMING…
BOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAA
Bob
How can you search up any of these MLS #’s?
NJSUX…actually that’s right. a house is worth what someone else would pay for it…period. not what you and i think it’s worth. if you “overpriced” your house by $300K and it sold, then it wasn’t overpriced to that particular buyer and thus not overpriced at all since you found a buyer. say WOW all you want, but that is how supply and demand work. w/ a house it only takes one person demanding it to set a price.
So when D Lerwah or a bunch of huckster realtors say it’s a great time to buy even in 2004-2005
How do we take these so called one way experts seriously?
Looking forward to this bust and the egos that will be squashed.
BOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAA
Bob
and i’m not a troll and having been reading this board since the beginning, so please don’t assume.
sounds like Mr. RE pimp is getting worried and concerned with Grim’s FACTS…real sales data.
It’s going to get worse and fun to watch the humility among you greedy grubbers.
Babababa
Spring Housing BUST 2007…NO REBOUND BUST!
BOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAA
Bob
bob: if one person makes an idiotic decision and pays the price being asked, then the house sold…period, idiotic decision or not. once it sold it was not overpriced. many different items are purchased at high prices b/c people are “idiots”. electronics are always highly priced when they first hit the market and people pay it, even knowing eventually the price will go down, only b/c they must have the item at that time. you may think they overpaid, but they don’t and the seller surely doesn’t think so b/c it sold the item.
COOOOLAPSE BRING IT ON!
It’s good for the economy and families……..
Bad for greedy grubbers that add zero value to society!
Bring it on—-Spring Housing BUST 2007….
Worry Worry….
Bob
Fair enough, the following line has been removed:
Please note, even with double digit percentage reductions, these homes are still incredibly overpriced.
jb
bob: it might make you feel better to assume that i have some stake in this but i don’t…and that’s a fact. i could care less whether the market goes up or down..and that’s a fact.
but pure economics shows that if one person is willing to pay a price for something than that something was not overpriced.
In exchange, I simply ask you to give yourself a recognizable identity here, and use it going forward.
jb
Lower Home prices for Hard working families and savers…
Not some Vegas gunslinger looking to flip flop and bang into bankfruptcy…
LOWER HOME PRICES ARE GOOD FOR SOCIETY AND OUR ECONOMY!
BOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAA
Bob………
thanks grim…i’m glad you are willing to see the other side every now and then. too bad most of your readers are blinded by glee.
Bob G,
There really is no way for a non-MLS member to get information on these listings. That aspect of the MLS system is closed to non-members.
However, you can just post the MLS # of the listings you want more detail on, and the resident agents will chime in.
jb
Richard, I’m sorry, but Westfield, Summit and Chatham aren’t THAT special, and as someone pointed out Franklin Lakes is hardly a slum. Could we please retire the terms “top towns” and “second tier towns”, they make me want to vomit.
Grim – any chance of splitting the list up into townhouses/condos and SFH’s? It would be interesting to see which are the most affected, or if there is even a difference.
ok grim…here’s my identity…..
Does anybody knows on how do you buy houses from foreclosure auction help my a bank – IF you do not have cash, but are pre-approved for well over foreclosure auction bid – how does this work?? do you have to have all cash?? or just initial 2500$(or whatever auction states) + 10% of winning bid (immediatelly after he auction) and the rest can be paid thruogh your loan/lender later??? You lender will probaly want to make sure that the house apprases at the bid amount, and so on…. – anybody care to share their expreiences??
“..but pure economics shows that if one person is willing to pay a price for something than that something was not overpriced.”
I have made a lot of money off of morons that believe your above statement.
Break it down into numbers into common ssnese everyday numbers are you will be shocked how expensive houses are and how many people are setting themselves up for a lifetime of slavery.
Lower Home Prices ARE GOOD for the economy, NJ and savers.
Bring it on…..COOOLAPSE Spring 2007…
BBABABABA
sales price is evidence of true value, but it is not always conclusive. as bob said, to claim otherwise is to suggest that the market is 100% rational. no one really believes this to be the case
Dictionary.com shows the defintion of overpriced to be “too costly for the value.”
Based on that definition, supply and demand has nothing to do with it. One can still buy an overpriced house.
READ MY LIPS EXPECIALLY YOU GREEDY GRUBBERS READING THIS…
NO REBOUND SPRING 2007….HOUSING MASSACRE!
LOWER PRICES ARE GOOD FOR OUR ECONOMY AND SOCIETY…
TAKE THAT STARVING REALTORS
BRING’IT ON
BOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAA
Bob
but who is it overpriced to? is it overpriced to you or Bob who are not the buyer or the seller and never would have been…well, then, who cares if you think its overpriced. The only people that matter is the buyer and seller, and if there is a buyer at that price it is not overpriced. it’s macro v. micro and in the world of real estate micro is the only thing that matters b/w the two parties.
Maybe “overpriced” is the wrong word. How about this:
Please note, even with double digit percentage reductions, these homes are still priced way above all measures of fundamental value and historical price appreciation.
jay i would agree w/ the “historical price appreciation” so long as that was true. i don’t agree w/ the “measure of fundamental value” part b/c in real estate the only measure of “fundamental value” is what someone is willing to pay.
w/ respect to the “historical price appreciation”, clearly housing has appreciated at ridiculous numbers inthe past few years…but if you look at the last 60 years or so of price appreciation, and average it over those years, the avg appreciation in the ny/nj area is only 3-4%, so then these prices are actually historically correct…it’s just the price appreciation over the past 5 years is not.
hope that makes sense.
Maybe “overpriced” is the wrong word. How about this:
Please note, even with double digit percentage reductions, these homes are still priced way above all measures of fundamental value and historical price appreciation.
Boooooyaaaaaa Bob approves this message.
Anon said:
“but pure economics shows that if one person is willing to pay a price for something than that something was not overpriced”
So I guess the NASDAQ wasn’t overpriced during the early part of 2000?
Harassing grubbers hanging around this blog….
sign of the times….DESPERATION growing…trying to defend their lifestyle and leeching off of others..
Spring 2007 Housing BUST!
Babbabababa
The only people that matter is the buyer and seller, and if there is a buyer at that price it is not overpriced. it’s macro v. micro and in the world of real estate micro is the only thing that matters b/w the two parties.
The statement above would be true if home prices would not be based on Comparable Sales… By what ou are saying if one idiot who have a lot of money pays 1 million for a 1bedr/1bathroom home somewhere in Kansas state small city, (no land or anything special) that is the fair value of the house???
Home values are based on:
1) Land cost in the area.
2) Costs to build comparable new home in the area.
3) Average Salary of people living in the area.
4) Amount of idiots who will pay any price just to get into real-estate.
“The only people that matter is the buyer and seller, and if there is a buyer at that price it is not overpriced. it’s macro v. micro and in the world of real estate micro is the only thing that matters b/w the two parties.”
OK, so by that logic anyone who overpaid last year should not feel any remorse because between them and the seller they arrived at the “correct” price?
no transaction exists in isolation. almost all present buyers will one day be sellers. the seller in your scenario is probably a buyer as well. add to this the fact that there is almost always bank involved which has investors and so on down the line. so your argument that the micro level is the only one that matters is simplistic to say the least
I have to disagree, fundamental value is best measured with rental vs. purchase price of the same home, not by what some fool is willing to pay.
al: we are not talking about fair market value…we are talking about overpriced. if some idiot wants to pay $1MM for a 1br in kansas AND the seller was asking that price, then that particular unit was not overpriced. the buyer may have overpaid in our eyes but not in his or the sellers…in real estate (unlike other ventures), they are the only two that matter.
I’m blinded by glee and I’m a homeowner. What’s my excuse?
skep-tic…you said that “OK, so by that logic anyone who overpaid last year should not feel any remorse because between them and the seller they arrived at the “correct” price?”
that may be true…they may have overpaid, but at the time, the house was not overpriced….there is a huge difference.
A rational consumer does a tradeoff between alternatives….By far renting is absolutely cheaper anyway you look at it without having to sign a Monthly slave contract…..
THINK FOR YOURSELF…
GRUBBERS DO NOT WANT THINKERS….CHALLENGE THEM WITH THEIR STATEMENTS
Babababa
BABABABABAB
gary: your excuse for what? do you want me to guess what you are talking about?
i’m so happy I pissed so many of you off by simply not falling in line behind BOB and bowing down to his and your thinking.
if only half of you actually read what I wrote, instead of what you think it says, you might actually agree.
Hey Bob, I like your postings. People should be open like you. This is what blogs for i enjoy ur postings.
Ramesh
ramesh, bob would rather call people names and assume he everyone who disagrees w/ him is the same and has the same opinions, all instead of engaging in a conversation. bob is thus not worth the words he types.
al: we are not talking about fair market value…we are talking about overpriced. if some idiot wants to pay $1MM for a 1br in kansas AND the seller was asking that price, then that particular unit was not overpriced. the buyer may have overpaid in our eyes but not in his or the sellers…in real estate (unlike other ventures), they are the only two that matter
Ohh soo real estate is Different!!! And economical principles and rational thinking is going out of the window when it comes to real estate??? If buyer have overpaid in everybody elses eyes but his own – he is an idiot.
Whenever i feel i could not control my urge to buy a home which is 10% list price, i come to this site and regain control.
Ramesh
Hey Bob, I like your postings. People should be open like you. This is what blogs for i enjoy ur postings.
Ramesh
Thanks Ramesh…Look after your own interest especially when it comes to buying a house or condo.
that’s right al…real estate is different. for example, the price of buying stock in disney is the same in kansas or in ny. the price of tv in wal-mart is the same in ny or in kansas (except for differentiations in shipping costs or overhead costs for the store).
but real estate is entirely different. the same exact two houses not even one mile apart can be worth more than thousands of dollars different, and that’s b/c individuals value it differently or the location values it differently.
i am NOT saying, nor did i EVER say, real estate is immune to outside market forces. what I AM saying is that if two people agree on the price what everyone else thinks or does does not matter w/ that piece of real estate, and thus that price is not overpriced but the correct price for that transaction…someone paid that price (maybe incorrectly), but they paid it.
How far from homes are safer from Power lines. The line which you can see in some city blocks.
I read 200 meters. is it true? But i see 100’s of homes in 10 meters distance. Please help me.
Ramesh
Smoked out the grubbers….
Here they come…get used to desperate bitter underwater homeowners/starving realtors entering the game here.
Most should thank grim for his wonderful site and getting the word out. Back 15-20 years ago NOOOOTTT”ING existed but same propaganda.
babababa
Bob is annoying,
I think everyone gets your point. it’s just that you seem to be saying that the only relevant piece of information as to whether a house is overpriced is whether someone bought it.
I don’t think anyone really thinks that way. If you somehow managed to sell a shed for $10B, would you say that is the correct price?
Again, I think everyone agrees that the sale price is an important piece of info — probably the most important — but it cannot be the only criterion for determing value
skep-tic: i think you, and others, are confusing terminology here. value is not the same as price and overpriced is not the same as overpaid.
if someone is asking $10B for a shed and someone pays $10B for a shed, then clearly it’s not overpriced. they may have OVERPAID, and the shed may not be VALUED at $10B, but since someone actually paid that price it is NOT overpriced. go back and read my first post to grim..that was my point.
Can anyone here get me details about MLS 2265677? A link to a picture would be great, I’m trying to figure out which property this was. Thanks!
bob
In middlesex county sellers are desparate, 10% off list price is easy. I went to open house and asked for 12% less just to test the seller. seller is behind me to buy it. I said i will think abt it because it has power lines close by. I would not buy atleast until end of 2007. Right now sellers are waiting for any offer almost.
Here is the XLS file that everyone has been waiting on.
Sales-Oct06b.xls
jb
Bob G: try this… http://www.lakehouse.com/out.php?id=15511
Hope this works. Sorry but I need to obscure the address.
MLS#: 2265677 CO: Sussex* TOWN: Stillwater Twp.* (2822)
AD: 10## RT619/SWARTSWOOD EASTSID LP: $324,900
SE: Swartswood Lake CLR:
ZN: RES GRS: STILLWATER SP: $305,000
MSJR: HS: KITTATINNY OLP: $384,900
BLDG#: UNIT#: LD: 04/07/2006
CL: No SDA: Yes CD: 10/30/2006
STYLE: Ranch DOM: 152
YB / DESC / REN: 1960 / Approximate /
RMS: 7 BDRM: 3 TBTH: 3 ACRES: .28* LSTZ: 81X152 AV*
GARAGE: 2 / Detached Garage BSMT: Yes / Crawl Space
EXTFT: Enclosed Porch(es), Privacy Fence, Patio
DIR: FROM NEWTON, RT 622 (NEWTON SWARTSWOOD RD) TO LEFT ON RT 619(SWARTSWOOD EASTSIDE ROAD)
REM: BRICKFRONT 2 BR+ OFFICE RANCH W/EXTRA BR & BATH IN GUEST HOUSE(2 BR SEPTIC)TEARDROP IG POOL;DR & 3SEASON PORCH OVERLOOK LOVELY YARD; LR W/FP;HW FLRS;WALK TO SWARTSWOOD LAKE /STATEPARK;MOTIVATED SELLER
LIV: 21×17 / First DIN: 16×09 / First KIT: 16×09 / FAM: / DEN: 10×09 / First
1BD: 13×10 / First 2BD: 12×10 / First 3BD: 19×12 / First 4BD: /
OTH 1: 17×7 / Screened Patio/Porch / OTH 2: / / OTH 3: / / OTH 4: / /
INTER:
HEAT: Baseboard – Hotwater WATER: Well
COOL: Window A/C(s) FUEL: Oil
SEWER: Septic UTIL: All Underground
FEE: $ / FLDINSR: TAXES: $5,076 TAXYR: 2004 LNDASMT: $34,300 BLDASMT: $101,800
APPLF: $ EASEMNT: Unknown TXRATE: 3.73 TRTYR: 2005 TOTASMT: $136,100
Bob G: Did that link I posted work for you?
“i don’t agree w/ the “measure of fundamental value” part b/c in real estate the only measure of “fundamental value” is what someone is willing to pay.”
Yes yes, whatever price a person paid was worth it to them at the time. This doesn’t relate to “fundamental value” since you’re saying it is PERSONAL value. You see the fallacy?
Also, let’s face it, anything and everything purchased whose price reduces over time is overpriced based on length of use/consumption. If the intent is to live in a house for 40 years, your theory applies. If the intent is to stay for 5-X number of years, it doesn’t. Its so easily arguable either way, but what you need to accept is there is an intrinsic measurement that is considered a standard (2.5-3X median income) for the value of a standard house (and yes there is such a thing as a standard house, since it seems like neighborhoods are very cookie cutter).
Additionally, accept that “overpriced” means that whatever the consumer paid at time of purchase did not merit the cost. If you’re going to assume emotional value you should not be discussing it in relation to cost, two different worlds.
Bernanke also said that making sure that every American has a chance to improve his or her economic standing through hard work, saving, entrepreneurship and other activities, is essential to building economically healthy communities.
From Jay #2 Anybody read that? Did BB always leave out “home ownership” as a way to improve economic standing? Is this a new CYA thing? I thought home ownership was IT. Or am I thinking of some other administration. I don’t remember savings in there before, either.
I think I need to go use THE GOOGLE and find some old spew to compare.
Thanks BOB, the link worked great! And thank you James!
gotta love how tightly held this information is. that’s gotta change.
The full Bernanke text can be found here:
Community Development Financial Institutions: Promoting Economic Growth and Opportunity
BOB is annoying – “and thus that price is not overpriced but the correct price for that transaction…someone paid that price (maybe incorrectly), but they paid it.”
There is fallacy in your logic. You keep saying it’s a correct price if someone paid for it, but than throw in maybe even incorrectly. How is this not overpriced? Why even bother doing comps when making comparisons? A few % points difference may just be variance in the data, but if you’re talking 20-40% difference than it’s considered an outlier. Time well show that 2005 was an outlier in terms of inflation adjusted housing pricing. I think you need to take some economics courses…
bob is annoying,
I see your point re: the difference in terminology. It just doesn’t seem to me to make a lot of sense to put price and value in completely separate boxes.
A sale means that two people determined that this was the correct price. By your logic, they could be the only two people in the world that could’ve come to this agreement, and the price would be just as “correct” as if anyone would have bought/sold at that price.
If you really believe this, then you are saying that pricing is completely subjective.
Bob is annoying,
You clearly do not have a hold of the English language…
“if someone is asking $10B for a shed and someone pays $10B for a shed, then clearly it’s not overpriced. they may have OVERPAID”
To overpay is to buy something that is overpriced…
This seems to be evolving into a discussion about the efficient market hypothesis. The last time we had this go-around, we seemed to agree that the housing market, in it’s current form, doesn’t at all resemble an efficient market. Thus the price paid for an individual home may vary wildly from it’s intrinsic value. We realize that price and value are radically different things.
jb
For ANON who causes all the ruckus:
I do agree with the fact that a home is worth what a person is willing to pay for it, so in the minds of the seller and buyer its not overpriced.
So lets pretend Person A pays 800K for a home
and than neighbor says wow My home is a little bigger I will list it for more moeny.
So yes house are overpriced due to the fact now everyone is willing to pay these prices.
Its a very end of the spectum view. Its either one or the other view.
I could say well this 400,000.00 home is worth 200,000.00 to me so I make an offer. Seller says no becuase there neighbor got 400,000.00 last year.
So sellers refusing offers (yes they can ask what they want and reject offers) are greedy because they are not accepting the fact of the decling market, and yes there are still some people out there willing to pay these prices, but there are not many people who can afford these prices.
So a seller who is asking a price beucase of what his neighbor got last year and gets offers and rejects them or gets no offer and his property sits and he reduces very little or not at all is a “GREEDY GRUBBER”
And we all say on this site the housing market is overpriced becuase A: it is and becuase the fact most people are not willing to pay these prices anymore and many sellers refuse to budge that make them Greedy.
Hello JB:
Is it possible for you to post the Lowball Edition for Mercer County, preferably Hamilton, Plainsboro and Lawerenceville?
Thanks
Arr Elle
Sorry spelling correction for above:
So yes house are overpriced due to the fact *not* everyone is willing to pay these prices.
Interesting piece over at the Street Light blog:
Is the Worst Really Behind Us?
Can someone provide me the details (address, days on market, etc) for the following MLS number which is listed in Grim’s excel s.sheet:
2285262
thanks
folks, i know for a fact prices in the top towns are holding up better than others. it’s a simple fact and makes logical sense. using lowball to look at % difference in listing and sales price means nothing as sellers can list for whatever they choose. if you use actual sales prices you’ll see the difference. the best i think we have available to provide this information is the otteau report.
How about this one – to determine the true current market “value” of the house – one needs to sell 100 of the identical homes on the auction in presence of 1000 bidders, social status of which is distributed identically to social status of people living in the area those homes located in????
Thats a post to address JB post on uneffectiveness of the housing market. To make it even more complicated, home priced dependant on overall economical conditions as well as local conditions, property taxes and electricity/heting oil costs…
So it is true, that it’s impossible to establish home Value preciselly. But if we are going tinto: if somebody paid this much for the house it is not overpriced, we must add For this particular person. It will be grossly overpriced for me and both statements are true.
So Bob is annoying Is playing with logic – he starts with single situation wich is true – this ONE home is not overpriced for this (some)ONE person in this (some)ONE situation and uses it to draw a GENERAL conclusion:
if someone is asking $10B for a shed and someone pays $10B for a shed, then clearly it’s not overpriced. they may have OVERPAID, and the shed may not be VALUED at $10B, but since someone actually paid that price it is NOT overpriced
So what Bob is annoying is saying is that if Mr.Smith person in NJ is Dentist that EVERYONE in NJ is a dentist as well.
Do you see fault in this logic – my dear dentists???
MLS#: 2285262 CO: Essex TOWN: Maplewood Twp. (1611)
AD: # BOYDEN AVE LP: $399,900
SE: CLR:
ZN: RES GRS: CLINTON SP: $375,000
MSJR: S ORANGE HS: COLUMBIA OLP: $425,000
BLDG#: UNIT#: LD: 06/04/2006
CL: No SDA: CD: 10/31/2006
STYLE: Colonial DOM: 141
YB / DESC / REN: 1920 / /
RMS: 6 BDRM: 3 TBTH: 1.2 ACRES: 0 LSTZ: 50X251
GARAGE: 3 / Detached Garage, Oversize Garage BSMT: Yes / Finished-Partially
EXTFT: Open Porch(es)
DIR: IRVINGTON AVENUE TO BOYDEN
REM: FANTASTIC COLONIAL WITH CUSTOM WOOD WORK EVERYWHERE! BRIGHT AND SPACIOUS, HUGE 3 CAR DETACHED GARAGE, MASTER SUITE WITH PRIVATE BALCONY, LARGE ROOMS AND SO MUCH MORE!
LIV: 14×21 / First DIN: 12×13 / First KIT: 10×12 / First FAM: / DEN: /
1BD: 12×19 / Second 2BD: 13×18 / Second 3BD: 9×13 / Second 4BD: /
OTH 1: / Bathroom / Second OTH 2: / Laundry Room / Basement OTH 3: / / OTH 4: / /
INTER: Cedar Closets, Security System, Smoke Detector, Walk-In Closet, Window Treatments
HEAT: Radiators – Steam WATER: Public Water
COOL: FUEL: Gas-Natural
SEWER: Public Sewer UTIL: All Underground
FEE: $ / FLDINSR: TAXES: $7,390 TAXYR: 2005 LNDASMT: $65,900 BLDASMT: $129,100
APPLF: $ EASEMNT: No TXRATE: 3.79 TRTYR: 2005 TOTASMT: $195,000
Richard,
I’m not going to agree or disagree with your statement, I just didn’t like the logic you used to come to that conclusion above.
jb
Please provide some information regarding “homes near power lines”. How far etc? I am worried abt radiation. Thanks a lot in advance.
Ramesh
Richard,
Please email me, I’ve got some additional data I’d like to send you (nnjbubble@gmail.com).
jb
Dear Ramesh.
you obviosly have an access to the internet. Google.com
search words “Power lines health effects”:
netted 27,200,000 references in 0.23sec.
feel free to read.
P.S. I’d say it is not established, but it is my personal opinion. SOme will say it is bad, Electric companies lawyers so far won all lawsuits.
Oil on the decline, gold on the up swing…..
very interesting….
Something is at work.
SAS
Thanks Al. I reserached and came to conclusion that i should home 200 meter away from power lines, is it reasonable conclusion? Thanks
There is another factor in the matter. There is another matter here. If buyer and seller agree price is right, unless buyer is paying cash, banker must also agree.
KL
That came out totally wrong. Gist is – Buyer and seller cant just agree.
KL
200 meters is too far – believe me. I would not live directly under, but 1200 meters is more than enough – the field strength falls as square of a distance….. and wires do not produce “huge” fields – if tehy would be coils that may be… lso depends on voltage on those powerlines – if they are 15KVolts – may be you need to worry. If they are 120/500Volts – who cares.
MLS#: 2265677 CO: Sussex* TOWN: Stillwater Twp.* (2822)
AD: 1024 RT619/SWARTSWOOD EASTSID LP: $324,900
SE: Swartswood Lake CLR:
ZN: RES GRS: STILLWATER SP: $305,000
MSJR: HS: KITTATINNY OLP: $384,900
BLDG#: UNIT#: LD: 04/07/2006
CL: No SDA: Yes CD: 10/30/2006
STYLE: Ranch DOM: 152
KL
What, no cash back! KL, now that’s deal-killer talk. Buy that appraiser another round, folks.
If you have a fridge in you house you are likelly exposed to 300V+ currents, if you have a tube TV – you have up to 5KVolts 60Hz frequency generator in you house….
“Al Says:
November 1st, 2006 at 4:06 pm
200 meters is too far – believe me. I would not live directly under, but 1200 meters is more than enough ”
did you mean 1200m above?
Thanks,
Ramesh
Sorry it was typo I meant 100 meters, but again – it is just my opinion, if I am to buy a house somewhere I’d probably want it as far from HIGH VOLTAGE powerlines as possible. But in NJ – you are either next to chemical plant, railroad, highway, powerline, chemical waste site no matter where you live……
At this link there are a bunch of info
http://www.mcw.edu/gcrc/cop/powerlines-cancer-FAQ/toc.html
And a lot of graphs indicate that at 100Meters the ield in from High Voltage powerlines is a lot smaller that “Residential background” – the field electric wiring in your house/appliances create.
SAS,
There has been a disconnect the past week. Gold broke out today. The Chinese, Japanese and Russians remain big buyers. The bottom on this move was made when the central banks sold.
lina you’re still looking in that section of maplewood? boyden ave is nasty. clinton grade school is having trouble with it’s student behavior, and that’s a grade school! find less house for the same price farther west, you’ll be glad you did.
To anon/bob is annoying,
Forgive me as I have lost a bit of the thread of this discussion, but I just wanted to chime in.
Back in the days when JB was asking what people wanted to see on this blog (back in the bubble blog days, before it was here) I remember asking for more of JB’s thoughts on the posts.
I did that because I think anyone who spends that much time consuming that kind of information probably has something valid to say about it.
When JB or anyone else uses the word “overpriced” I understand it to be an opinion. If he reworked his sentence and included the words “I consider” it might be a little clearer, but even without it I think it’s clear.
As for your definition of “overpriced”, it may work in the narrowest sense, but it really isn’t proper.
Even if an item could be considered fairly priced at the moment it was bought, as soon as the buyer (now the owner) is out of the market, the home is likely once again overpriced because he certainly can’t sell it to himself.
Because “overpriced” is so closely tied to an individuals perceptions I really don’t think it takes away from JB’s claim of presenting the facts, it just puts the facts in a broader context.
When JB, or anyone else who can be taken as an informed observer, gives an opinion try to take it for what it is, additional information, not a lack of integrity.
I personally think that any attack on grim is a little unwarranted. He puts forward a lot of effort and sifts through a great deal of data for no monetary compensation. He places himself in squarely in the public domain. He provides participants with a minimally censored forum. He keeps the place organized. He is generally pragmatic and patient. Someone takes issue with a phrase that has been used numerous times in a consistent pattern for the last 11 months. Seriously, show a little respect.
Richard,
My realtor has nothing in my price range further west. Believe me, I would go west if I could, but apparantly my realtor is telling me there’s NOTHING available that priced to what I can afford (which is $340-$370K, with reasonable taxes ie – no more than 7K/annually).
And, looking on their websites and on realtor.com, I’m not seeing anything either.
What’s a poor person to do?
Well, now, I feel like I’ve lost something here, folks.
I never did think blogs or bloggers were (or should be) subject to some kind of inane “independence morality.” As if any writing is independent. Never got around to reading any blog ethics rules, though, so I might have gotten that one wrong.
There was another good thing about having J.B. put the old cut-and-paste line, “Please note, even with double digit percentage reductions, these homes are still incredibly overpriced.”
I was waiting for the day he stopped putting it there.
A kind of cork-popping day. Saw it as, well a calm, warm spring month, when I walk outside, and expect a cold blast of air, but the air is warm.
Now, don’t get my same experience.
yo’ grim:
Time to lock the forum. It’s getting a little too dicey over there. Time to throw out the trash.
Thanks a lot Al
How far should you house be from a power line?
Beside electric field, we also have magnetic field due to current in the wire. Those high tension wires can easily carry 1000A. (100 times the current of your 1000W heater) I did a rough calculation long time ago and I think 100m or 300 ft is the minimum. And again, this is not a hard science, there is no standard on this subject. I can only find valuable info from Canadian and European papers. Hope this help.
007
Lina,
I suggest ( as I have before ) you should get another realtor.
KL
PS: Grim, not my business but I would’nt remove anything. A blog in my opinion is a place for people with similar views to discuss them, this is not the real estate is the best investment ever blog. I found this blog while looking for information to confirm my thinking that there was something seriously wrong with home prices.
“‘I don’t think the macro statistics reflect accurately what’s going on in many local markets,’ says Bruce Karatz, CEO of national home-builder KB Home. In many once-hot regions, order cancellation rates are running above 40 percent, new-home sales volume has dropped 50 percent, and new-home prices are down 10 percent to 25 percent.”
“Karatz says the current downturn is worse than any he has seen, even the early 1990s market that left so many big builders reeling.”
Wow, a major HB admitting things are really bad. If Karatz says things are bad, things are likely very bad and about to get worst.
The RE market is crashing in slow motion but it is guaranteed to crash. The end result will be the same it is just how long will it take?
per housing bubble blog
“An AP-AOL Real Estate Poll found that more than one-third – 36 percent – of those surveyed with adjustable-rate mortgages worry that they won’t be able to afford their monthly mortgage payments if their interest rates increase.”
what about the clueless dummies? should add addiitional dummies to the pool or concerned
Whoo hooo Got the excell reader – got the file,
Question: Grim how long does that take you????
My god you have more free time than me, come on are you a realtor too?
KL
Can you make a recommendation for an agent or agency that services that area?
Let me know.
This information is STILL EXTREMLY preliminary, but I thought I’d share this snap-shot of where October is right now.
For Bergen County ONLY, here is the average & median price along with the number of homes sold and number under contract in October (10/1-31) for the past 11 years. This is for residential SFH listings; this does NOT include Condos/Co-ops & Twnhs.
Year Avg$ Med$ Sold UnderContract
1995 $255,296 $255,000 589 581*
1996 $261,618 $215,000 619 674
1997 $271,432 $219,000 642 652
1998 $277,425 $220,000 651 656
1999 $340,098 $259,000 596 468
2000 $373,225 $274,000 559 609
2001 $417,626 $329,000 648 552
2002 $478,221 $360,000 558 609
2003 $503,135 $395,000 701 647
2004 $562,756 $460,000 626 683
2005 $676,837 $545,000 573 577
2006 $626,460 $480,000 496 547 as of 11/1/06 4:50 PM EST
And here is the same data including Condos/Co-ops, Townhouses as well as SFH.
Year Avg$ Med$ Sold UnderContract
1995 $237,887 $192,000 720 706*
1996 $237,259 $192,000 792 832
1997 $247,577 $205,000 826 786
1998 $252,701 $205,000 845 830
1999 $298,098 $235,000 799 616
2000 $327,550 $250,000 785 828
2001 $371,773 $299,500 897 749
2002 $417,984 $340,000 793 850
2003 $444,996 $364,000 976 923
2004 $492,371 $420,000 887 935
2005 $588,046 $490,000 830 797
2006 $556,447 $445,000 695 749 as of 11/1/06 4:51 PM EST
*1995 data may be incomplete as I believe this is the first year this data becomes available.
Rich
“Karatz says the current downturn is worse than any he has seen, even the early 1990s market that left so many big builders reeling.”
Add this to Bob Toll; never seen a market have problems like this with rates and employment favorable(paraphrasing, don’t remember exact quote)
Add this to Business Week, “most toxic loans ever”
I really worry when the titans of the industry use phrases like worst ever and never seen this. It tells me we are headed to the biggest RE bust ever.
Wow Rich, slowest October in at least 11 years, although contracts seemed to have picked up a little
Jim,
That excell file is very helpful even to me, because while I do have acess to that info I don’t have the ability ( not yet ) to put it into the useful format you have. I have been wondering how the lowball stands up to the over-aksings and at askings and your chart shows that of 1342 total sales 112 were over asking, 72 were at asking 825 were under by less than 10% and 332 were sold for more than 10% off of original list price. That info gives me legs to stand on, with my sellers, and more importantly with my buyers and dealing with seller’s agents. I will use this in my day to day dealings.
Thanks
KL
just got a “market report” from one of my local realtors.
3rd Quarter SFH sales = 22
What’s left out of the market report is inventory. By my calculation, at the current sales pace, there is 15.5 months of inventory in my town.
Also, this “market report” show only the LIST price of closed sales. From this list price, our local “expert” derives metrics such as price per square foot. However, 3/4 of the properties that are showing up on Zillow sold BELOW LIST.
Also, given that the quickest sale this quarter was after 87 days on the market and the AVERAGE number of days on the market was 157 (despite the fact that relistings are rampant), it is likely that these houses are even further marked down from their original list price.
The best part of all is this expert promotes herself as “honest and insightful”!!
I researched two properties that are modest and appealing in my neighborhood that aren’t for sale. Owners bought in 1956 and 1967 respectively. Flippers! Should either of these grubbers dare to list I’ll prepare an offer guaranteed to inflict maximum pain!
There, I said it. I feel better now.
Was there a fair amount of vitriol on this thread, or am I overly sensitive today? BTW, I’ve also run across transactions that sold for $1.00 in the tax records. Am I safe to assume that’s a family gift or inheritance, or maybe an incomplete record?
Does anybody know how many months inventory now exists in Bergen county? Where can we get those statistics from?
Thanks 007
I Smell a credit crunch. The flippers/speculators/greedy grubbers borrowing on th housing ATM again again and again.
Reuters U.S. Company News
10:00 a.m. 11/01/2006
NEW YORK, Nov 1 (Reuters) – U.S. homeowners took cash out of their homes in the third quarter at the highest rate in 16 years, spurred by high costs on other types of loans, according to home finance company Freddie Mac (FRE) .
In the quarter, 89 percent of Freddie Mac-owned loans that refinanced got mortgages that were at least 5 percent higher than the original balances.
“High demand for cash extraction through refinance is being driven by the high cost of home improvement loans and home-equity lines of credit — that is, the cost of alternative financing — and still-strong demand for home improvements,” Amy Crews Cutts, Freddie Mac deputy chief economist, said in a release.
Also, a huge wave of adjustable-rate mortgages created in the past few years are facing their first reset, giving borrowers the incentive to refinance and take additional cash, Freddie Mac said.
The third quarter share of cash-out refinancing is up from 88 percent in the second quarter.
And these greedy grubbers will being coming to market soon demanding that a fool pay for their credit binging.
Tell’em no MAAS to the bail out. let’em sink.
Bleed’em dry!
Boooooooooyaaaaaaaaaaa
Bob
I have to disagree that if you have a buyer then [it] is not overpriced. If you can buy a beer at the local bar for $4.00, at sports arena for $5.50, at a high end restaurant for $7.00 There are buyers at every price range, at what point is the same beer overpriced? Add a few zeros behind that and you have home prices. Of course the difference is that for the price of beer we are talking about discretionary dollars and not a mortgage but I think my point is made.
no…. sorry your beer analogy sucks [2008 buyer] nice try
A home can be over-priced and someone moron will still buy it.
I think my point is made!!
American Heritage Dictionary Says: To put too high a price or value on.
An overpriced house is a possiblity and a reality.
El Fin.
Regarding beer, I read someone in Ca. was offering free beer and pizza for one year if you buy their home.
Bob is anoying,
First you say that a purchased house can not be overpriced.
Then you say it’s not overpriced, just that the buyer overpaid.
Then you say that the someone who overpaid, purchased a house that was overpriced??
“slowest October in at least 11 years”
It occurs to me that this is going to cause a large revenue shortfall for the state government. Get ready for more taxes, or bigger deficits.
Does anybody know how many months inventory now exists in Bergen county? Where can we get those statistics from?
AHS,
According to the most recent Otteau data (September) Bergen Inventory is as follows:
Under $600k: 7 Months
$600k-$1m: 12 Months
$1m-$2.5m: 17 Months
$2.5m+: 20 Months
Total Market: 9 Months
jb
Off topic, but interesting to the geeks here..
I had the new Verizon fiber optic (FIOS) internet service installed this afternoon. Took the tech 5 hours to install, had to pull fiber down 3 poles. As soon as they lit the fiber I had access, and damn is it fast!
jb
Some entertaining posts today.
The old saying that the market is always right is a truism; the market can never be wrong in the sense that it reflects a certain point to have been reached at a given time. However,markets don’t always reflect the true value of the underlying fundamentals.The market can become so detached from its fundamentals that it takes on a whole new meaning. The market can take on a like of its own. Once this happens the market vulnerability to irrational/extreme behavior becomes more pronunced. This can continue for a period of time before the market starts to implode, on its own, for no apparent reason.The markets always comes back to fair value. You can argue that 2005 prices are here to stay, you can make a case that we are going back to 2000 prices, I say 1998-2000 prices. You can argue till you are blue in the face about prices paid/market value. One thing you can’t argue is that this market is stretched like a rubber band, either it pulls back dramatically or it snaps. Play it any way you want.
Mmmm… Fiber.
Guys, I recommend you all wait before purcahsing. I think we are in the 2004 price point in most towns in Bergen. I have been looking at tons of homes with a broker friend and the majority of listings in the 350-500K range show 50-100K reductions. If you have a buyers agent ask them to print out the sales history report for a property, it shows every price reduction or transaction that has occured for said property. If you bought in 2004 you arent going to make a profit selling.
Grim,
What were you using before the FIOS? I’m using verizon DSL, but it is a heck of a lot slower than Optimum Online that I had last year.
price #house % of total sold (1342 houses)
30 K 364 27.12%
>40 K 246 18.33%
(subtotal=70.42%)
>50 K 151 11.25%
>60 K 85 6.33%
>70 K 56 4.17%
>80 K 31 2.31%
>90 K 21 1.56%
1 mm + 53 3.95%
JB’s data showed 70% sold houses were with a OLP below 500,000.
This shows what most people can afford in NNJ.
Post it again
30 K 364 27.12%
>40 K 246 18.33%
(subtotal=70.42%)
>50 K 151 11.25%
>60 K 85 6.33%
>70 K 56 4.17%
>80 K 31 2.31%
>90 K 21 1.56%
1 mm + 53 3.95%
Grim – I’m assuming you haven’t had a chance yet to post the XLS for the lowballs? I haven’t seen it on the site.
Can anyone provide info on MLS # 2281901 that sold? I’m curious to see what it looks like.
Thanks in advance.
I did, but it was in the comments:
https://njrereport.com/files/Sales-Oct06b.xls
James, great work! Thanks for providing it. Saw this site via Star Ledger.
***
The data, by itself, does not confirm if the market is overheated or not. All it shows is that the final selling price was around 6% lower than the original listing price, in Oct.
What would help in the analysis is how this compares historically.
It’s very possible that what the data shows is that it takes a while for the sellers to realize that the demand is lower than they think (or want it to be). Eventually, the sellers are going to adjust their prices to reflect the buying market, and, then we’ll get back to the standard SP/OLP ratio (whatever that is).
On the other hand, ideally, the sellers have priced their house to recent sales, and therefore, the OLP should reflect that. That the SP is 6% below that shows that the market is overheated. The presumption of “ideally” is probably a huge one to take.
In the end, James’ data is superb, but is just one piece to the puzzle.
Does anybody shed some light into where can I find information about sale prices for townhomes in Parsippany Troy Hills in the last 2 years
Thanks.
Vince forget the last 2 years it was an anomaly…prices in 2004-05 were absolutely stupid.
Sorry if these questions are obtuse, but does https://njrereport.com/files/Sales-Oct06b.xls reflect ALL N.J. houses that actually closed in October, or just a selection of them and if the later, what criteria was used to choose these homes for the spreadsheet?
Also, I assume the last column is the number of days on MLS prior to closing … correct?
Jeff
Hi James,
The MLS numbers do not work on realtor.com or other realtor sites I have tried today to see the property details. They worked last week.
Thought you should know.
Re comment 144 Understood what I was doing wrong. MLS works for the listed but not yet not sold props.
Very good work.
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