The morning after: I find myself in a familiar position. My inbox is filled with a mix of hate mail from Realtors and love(?) mail from consumers. Realtors all seem to think this practice is perfectly acceptable, some go so far as to say it is their responsibility. Consumers are angry as hell, and rightfully so.
Note to other Realtors: If you want to be treated with respect and trusted, act in a way that begets those traits. Attempting to salvage trust and respect with half-ass justifications for unethical behavior? Is it any wonder why real estate agents are lumped into the same category as used-car salesmen and ambulance chasers?
Note to New Jersey Realtors: Stopping this practice is now my personal mission. I will go to no end to have this practiced stopped. From the local boards, to the NJAR, the legislators, the real estate commission, the DOBI, etc. Hell hath no fury…
From ABC News/Nightline:
Buyer Beware: Unsold Homes Are Often ‘Re-listed’
By VICKI MABREY and MELIA PATRIA
Feb. 20, 2008
If you’re looking to sell your home fast, Minnesota realtor Joe Niece believes he’s your guy.
“I’m probably the most aggressive person in the entire state,” he said. “Maybe even the United States.”
Niece says he will sell your home 30 percent faster than average market time.
“I do probably ten times more than a good many of my competitors when it comes to marketing,” he said.
Niece sold one home in Eden Prairie, Minnesota, after just 27 days on the market, and another house after only 15 days. “I can tell every single seller that I have, that I did everything to sell their house that I would have done for my mom’s house or my house,” Niece said.
How does he do it? The problem is, the figures he cites are not technically accurate. The first house in Eden Prairie actually lingered on the slumping market for 99 days. And the one that sold in 15 days actually sat for 126 days.
It’s a tactic called “re-listing,” which is legal and more common than you think.
…
Here’s how it works: Niece cancels house listings when they reach 70 days on the market, and then re-lists them as new, with 0 days on the market.“So, when the buyer says, ‘Well, how long’s this one been on the market?’ And he looks at a report that normally an agent or a buyer would have when they’re showing houses, it only shows the current time on the market,” Niece said. “So a buyer’s going to be way more positive as they look through a home that says 25 days versus 125 days.”
Niece believes that re-listing is an important marketing tool in tough periods like this, because first impressions are crucial.
…
But real estate blogger James Bednar says re-listing is simply unethical. “As a buyer, it does make me angry,” he said. “I need to know how long a home’s been on the market or what the original price is.”“Hiding that market information from consumers is wrong, and it’s got to stop,” he added.
Bednar started blogging in 2005 after growing aggravated with realtors during his own house-hunting search.
“The issue here is that when a re-listed home is sold, it skews the market transaction data,” he said. “When an agent typically says they can sell a home in 30 or 60 days, is that really true? If they’ve re-listed a home, that might not necessarily be true.” In an effort to gain access to market data, he actually got a real estate license and a membership with his local listing service. With a few key strokes he can find the true history of any listing in his northern New Jersey neighborhood.
“The most common outcome is probably that a buyer overpays for a home,” he said. “I think it’s only a matter of time before a buyer who buys a home under these false pretenses realizes it and perhaps sues the real estate agent for misrepresenting a house.”
…
Niece said most buyers don’t understand that more than 100 days on the market is actually average market time. “They perceive that 20 days is an average market time because for the last seven years that’s what they’ve heard,” he said. “It would only be cooking the numbers if buyers’ agents couldn’t easily get the numbers.”
…
Across the country in Sacramento, California, the problem got so bad that Michael Lyon, CEO of Lyon Real Estate, blew the whistle after he noticed that one third of all “new” listings were re-listings.“This is just silliness,” he said. “I’m sorry, but you can’t pull the wool over the buyer’s eyes.”
Lyon forced his regional listing service to set a new standard. “We let people see all the previous listings, period, there are no secrets,” he said. “We want the buyer to know everything about all the times it was listed, so we can allow them to truly investigate the home.”
…
The National Association of Realtors says it hasn’t seen a need for regulation on re-listing because it is not aware of a problem. Lyon says buyers should ask their agents to get the entire listing history.“You want to know all the times the house has been listed in the last two years,” he said, adding that days on the market are “very important” to buyers.
“It allows them to ask other questions,” he said. “If it has been on a long time, why? Why is this happening? And those answers will allow them to make a fair offer. ”
Be sure to chime in with your own comments at the link above.
J.B., are you gonna be on the TV there at 11:35?
Should I stay up, or will it just be that slimeball Joe guy? Ew.
You don’t have too long to wait. They say TV adds 10 pounds. I’ll bet it adds 30 for you due to ego inflating your head.
Booya
O.K.
Let’s play TV bingo.
First hit goes to ME!
I say this dude’s first:
call:http://www.relocateamerica.com/minnesota/cities/mound
I’m pulling out the big guns commenting on that story.
I say we get Gary. Simple link to any discussion we had here on relisting over the last two years, and then have Gary spew a few.
Very nice.
pat – what happened to your link at 4?
finally – comments coming through over there.
Formatting bites, though.
Class, let us recite the elements of common law fraud…
Everybody went to bed?
I’m still around.
ah
saw you in that other comment section :)
“Re-Listing” Real Estate is creepy, slimey, and a detestable practice !!!
May it be exposed everywhere !!!
I feel like I need a shower after watching that relister from the Midwest. He was just sooo pleased with himself.
If something has been on the market, it should not be possible to relist until it has sat off the market for at least one day longer than it was on.
You two were busy. I threw my own two sense in but got stuck with a silly handle I used as a joke.
Grim/Clot Question:
Is it possible to find out the median asking price in the region and the median sales price? Just curious how they correlate. Thanks.
Fortunately, relisting is tightly controlled in our MLS (and thankfully, we’re not the only one). Realtors could be fined. In the early 1990’s this tactic was widely used (or shall I say mis-used)! It really messed up the marketing data and it added more work when creating Market Reports for clients because you had to double and triple check various sources in order to thow out the bogus listings. This guy really made me sick! Especially with that stupid expression on his face!
We bought a house in Anchorage, AK that was for sale much longer than the listing showed. In the end, we paid $15,000 more than its market worth at the time, plus discovered after we bought that not only had been on the market for well over a year and it had been relisted, but the updating done by the previous owners was shoddy (some outright fraudulent in that they just made it looked like things were done when it was only surface so we’ve had to pay to do it over), but they also lied about how many cats had lived in the house and how long it had been since a cat had been here, and I told my realtor that I am very allergic to cat dander. We discovered from the neighbors and from papers we saw after the sale how long the house had really been for sale and about the cats. Two new toilets, two plumbing repairs, a faucet repair, a bathroom fan replacement, and all the tile torn up and redone because it was merely glued to the wood floor beneath so it immediately came loose and started cracking later, we feel Really ripped off. Even without all the things wrong that were hidden from us, I would Never have paid the asking price for a home that had been on the market that long!
It really messed up the marketing data and it added more work when creating Market Reports for clients because you had to double and triple check various sources in order to thow out the bogus listings.
Lawrence,
Thanks for this tidbit, this one wasn’t readily apparent to me. I do agree, we’ve got two major issues here:
1) Misleading buyers
2) Skewing statistical/market information, which can mislead *both* buyers and sellers.
Refreshers are stale.
Barb, in future put a dander contingency in your contract.
From the WSJ:
Fears of Stagflation Return
As Price Increases Gain Pace
Fed Cuts Outlook
For Economic Growth
Amid Credit Crunch
By GREG IP
February 21, 2008; Page A1
The U.S. faces an unwelcome combination of looming recession and persistent inflation that is reviving angst about stagflation, a condition not seen since the 1970s.
Inflation is rising. Yesterday the Labor Department said consumer prices in the U.S. jumped 0.4% in January and are up 4.3% over the past 12 months, near a 16-year high. Even stripping out sharply rising food and energy costs, prices rose 0.3% in January, driven by education, medical care, clothing and hotels. They are up by 2.5% from the previous year, a 10-month high.
The same day brought a reminder of possible recession. The Federal Reserve disclosed that its policy makers lowered their forecast for economic growth this year to between 1.3% and 2%, half a percentage point below the level of their previous forecast, in October. They blamed a further slowdown on the slump in housing prices, tighter lending standards and higher oil prices. They warned the economy’s performance could fall short of even that lowered outlook.
…
A simultaneous rise in unemployment and inflation poses a dilemma for Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke. When the Fed wants to fight unemployment, it lowers interest rates. When it wants to damp inflation, it raises them. It’s impossible to do both at the same time.
…
Stagflation, a term coined in the United Kingdom in 1965, defined the years from 1970 to 1981 in the U.S. Inflation rose to almost 15%. The economy went through three recessions. Unemployment reached 9%. Fed Chairman Paul Volcker finally conquered inflation, but only by dramatically boosting interest rates, causing a severe recession in 1981-82.
Grim-
I was gonna really read this throughly, but then I got distracted by the headlines to the side: “Fight! Whoopi, Hasselbeck Slug It Out Over Obama” and “Courteney Cox’ Big Weight Loss”.
I’ll go back again tonight, right after Access Hollywood is over.
I promise. :)
Grim – Was the Nightline segment last night?
Sorry I missed it. Excellent topic that affects markets all over this country. I would imagine by now the powers that be realize that some regulation needs to be put back into the system. Every “game” needs rules and a level playing field.
Reading this AM – Your recommendation
“Creature from Jekyl Island.” Love the summary format…It makes you feel as though the big banks will come out “smelling like a rose” no matter what transpires.
soosh (16)-
There’s probably a way to find median ask/sell prices, but I don’t know where to go. One of our quants here can probably point you in the right direction.
Something makes me think median ask/sell stats for the whole state would be highly misleading. Averages, broken down county-by-county might tell a more precise story.
from the abc comments
I agree with the comment from Chris Courtney regarding the media. The media can put any spin they want on the real estate market, and the fact is …bad news sells. I have not seen any headlines about interest rates being lower than they have been since 2005, when the market was booming. I have not seen any headlines about the large inventory and the many choices buyers have at this time. The opportunity is here, right now. Why are investors such heavy players in the market right now? Why are they scrambling to get all the financing possible to buy everything they can right now? Because the properties pencil out again! This is the best time to buy in years…but you will not hear it or read it in any news media. Think about it if the word got out, and how fast this whole thing would turn around if it did. The volume of sales in my office in Jan ’08 is double the volume of Jan ’07…but you will not read it in the local paper. We are seeing multiple offers on homes over the median price in the area within 30 days, but the paper prints “doom and gloom” headlines all over each and every week. This whole article is just the media continuing their bad spin policy. Fact is, none of my buyers have ever been tricked or deceived by actual DOM. As a matter of fact, they feel compelled to write lowball offers in an attempt to steal the property from the seller. They offer a price that proves value to them and I work hard to try to get them accepted.
Posted by:
PcarRealtor 1:29 AM
QUICK BUY NOW OR BE PRICED OUT FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
grim (19)-
Every time I do a listing presentation, I have to get comps together, then go back and pull the history on ever single one of them. Finally, I then have to manually adjust my CMA for price and days on market. Often, every single comp I’m using is a re-listing!
Just getting the stats right for a simple condo sale regularly takes 60-90 minutes. Since GSMLS’ program doesn’t allow for manual adjustments to reports, I do it all manually and highlight the changes in yellow Sharpie.
Re-listing actually hurts sellers, too. Imagine a seller who needs to sell in a compressed amount of time relying solely upon stats reflecting the most recent listing of competitors’ homes.
“The National Association of Realtors says it hasn’t seen a need for regulation on re-listing because it is not aware of a problem.”
Well they are aware now..wonder what will happen? Anything?
by the way JB nice piece you had on ABC
any chance of posting or linking the video clip for it??
sl
regarding the comment at 25
those nefarious buyers are trying to STEAL the house from the poor sellers, oh what ever will we do?!?!?!?!?!?!?
oh wait i am starting to sound like gary;)
sl,
I asked for a DVD, I’ll post the clip when I get it. Unless someone here captured it already.
I think every house the wife and I looked at over the last year has been a relist. Sure fire sign of a relist, dogwood trees in bloom in winter! I guess I’m supposed to believe that the seller and the listing agent were so forward thionking that they took pictures of the home from all angles during the Spring in preparation of a winter listing when the market is slowest. Sure, I’m currently looking at bridge in Brooklyn as well. This guy has the deed and says I can make a fortune in toll monies.
What a great article.
Sorry, I just can’t believe that NAR doesn’t realize this is a problem. Any one who has been househunting for a even a few month realizes it.
That guy in Minnesota thinks he’s so brilliant for figuring this out. That makes me want to vomit.
What a joke. This is bad for sellers, bad for buyers and bad for the realty
profession’s reputation.
GREAT ARTICLE!!! I especially love the quote how it’s only a matter of time til a realtor gets sued over this kind of stuff.
Ann (33)-
Don’t sweat Realtors’ reputations. I don’t think ours can get any lower.
34 Clotpoll
True, true, sorry to say.
My favorite Niece quote from the article..
“It’s let the buyer beware. If you go off and buy a car and don’t have someone check it out, you deserve to get a bad car.”
“Niece says he will sell your home 30 percent faster than average market time.”
Just think how fast he’d be with a few of these at his disposal.
http://www.discountcatholicproducts.com/catholic-store.aspx?st=9728
Actually this set has an extra saintly boost:
http://www.discountcatholicproducts.com/catholic-store.aspx?st=9691
JB,
Great stuff.
Clot,
You must have rattled Dook?
Go Grim on your personal mission!
I like your part about respect and trust.
On the buying side, I hope that all the buyers agents out there start being honest and letting their clients know the REAL Days on Market and FULL listing history of the houses they are interested in.
The buyer shouldn’t have to ask for these things. They should be alerted to it.
Who cares about re-listing! It should have no bearing on the value of the house. The house value should be based on comps.
When I sell a used car do people ask me how long has it been on market, is this your second or third ad. No they look at what similar cars are going for and make an offer. I guess 19 year old used car buyers are smarter than 40 year old house buyers.
42
I used to feel that way too, about DOM in general, like who cares? Make your offer based on what you want to pay for it. When we first started looking, I would think that the people with the long DOM houses would be so desperate I could offer them anything and they would take it. Turned out to be the exact opposite.
But then they should just get rid of the DOM data field altogether.
Right now, as it is something that is shown on listings, it is a part of the marketing.
Either get rid of it, or make it accurate. Realtors shouldn’t be able to have it both ways.
I still have a listing report and so much of the crap has been relisted, sometimes on it’s third round, that started out on there last spring.
grim Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 6:35 am
Lawrence, Thanks for this tidbit, this one wasn’t readily apparent to me. I do agree, we’ve got two major issues here:
1) Misleading buyers
2) Skewing statistical/market information, which can mislead *both* buyers and sellers.
3) YOU!
My inbox is filled with a mix of hate mail from Realtors
Could you post any of those at some point (obviously with any identifying info redacted)? I would be fascinated to see some of the hate mail.
grim Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 7:28 am
sl, I asked for a DVD, I’ll post the clip when I get it. Unless someone here captured it already.
FYI – I’ll almost guarantee that there will be an ABC News video link posted within 48 hours. I would check back on the story page every few hours and search. Remember, the item aired last night after hours. Whoever is responsible for compressing and linking content is just getting to work now.
Also, it may not be obvious the update has been made. Review the queue of other video stories and the link may just appear.
#45
I’m interested in seeing the hate mail, too.
Drat, I usually watch Nightline, but crashed out early last night!
Yeah, post some of the emails. Especially any from the Hoboken area. I want to see if the Kannekt crowd got riled up!
(42) John
Isn’t there something in there is the
realtors credo related to their “fiduciary duty?”
“fiduciary” – founded in trust…
It is a deceitful practice.
As time goes on, I think Nightline is getting more sophisticated about its coverage of the real estate bust.
I think realtors (clot included, but not Karen) spell that would “fidoucheiary”.
OT
clott this link is for you, for when the revolution starts :)
http://tinyurl.com/248ccl
Clot – Thanks.
I had just read elsewhere some report that in one area (NOT NJ obviously) asking medians were around $170k and sales medians $110. The point was made that it was evidence of inflated askings. Of course, there are lots of variables not covered with that statement, but did think it might be an interesting exercise.
The reason why Buyers do not know about relisitng is because it is not included in this book and they do not ask right questions
when buying.
http://dummies.dummiesrealestate.com/search.aspx?query=relisting
JB: Hell, I like your excitement. In fact, I would say we should not limit only to Relisting.
I have always asked on this board that we need to take some agenda and start grass root lobbying efforts. There are many things wrong for Real Estate Buyers, Relisting is definitely one of the top one. I am sure there are many issues for Sellers as well. I think the right place to take this is to Legislators. Realtor Association will not pay any heed. Following could be some of the items.
1. Re-Listing
2. Hidden commissions to Buyers Agents
3. Disclosure about any other offers (not the amount, but at least some system to confirm whether there is another offer or the rep is bluffing)
4. Missing or wrong information on MLS (for things like Year Built, Tax values, School District etc..)
I am sure there are many other items as well. I dont think this should be construed upon only against Realtors, there are other players too.
“As a matter of fact, they feel compelled to write lowball offers in an attempt to steal the property from the seller. ”
Somebody call that guy a waaahmbulance.
Ann- Of course the NAR knows.
It’s like any other lobby group, they try to head off heavy handed legislation by forming an umbrella organization and promising self-regulation. So you get realtors spouting off about their Code of Ethics as if it is the same as being bound by regulations and the NAR pretends it has no idea that its members bend the rules in order to maintain a sheen of respectability and responsibility.
It’s the same nonsense that happens with every other self-regulating industry until the boundaries are pushed too far or there is some kind of consumer outrage. And it is more typical in industries that members of the general public are not exposed to daily.
thanks all, grim, chifi.
sl
Grim – Related to fiduciary duty –
I tried to get into the National Realtors Association to look under “Code of Ethics and Professional Standards” but it requires a password etc.
So I did Google it and found under disclosure….
Disclosure #3:
“The length of time the property has been on the market and any other offers that have been made relating to the property.”
So they are trying to say “The re-listing IS the time on the market.” How about the offers made on the original listing? Shouldn’t realtors be disclosing that as well?
What are the NAR or State Regulations when there is no Buyer’s Agent involved in transaction?
What I understand is that for property transaction, Buyers and Sellers Agent (I guess their Brokers) take 50% commission each. So, what if end user directly contacts Sellers agent and buys a home. My guess is Sellers agent keeps the whole comission, but isn’t that conflict of interest?
grim/richnorthjersey: If one of you guys get a chance, can you please chek the status on
ML2733974. Thanks.
#59 Cindy
I tried to get into the National Realtors Association to look under “Code of Ethics and Professional Standards” but it requires a password etc.
Ask Joe Niece for his. :rolleyes:
“Sorry, I just can’t believe that NAR doesn’t realize this is a problem.”
That’s because it isn’t true. The NAR is very glad to have the asymmetric information favor the seller.
34 clot
At least there are lawyers to keep youse guys out of the basement.
No regulation is needed leave gov’t out. NAR will self regulate itself or the buyers will wisen up.
Free
Now we know why “transparency” is the new catch-word for 2008.
No regulation is needed leave gov’t out. NAR will self regulate itself or the buyers will wisen up.
Free market capitalism is the best way to prosperity.
Eventhough I can’t stand Laryy Cudlow I love the Cudlow creed.
42 John
wow – you’re making the exact same arguments that the greasy realtors were making in nightline comments.
“Who cares about re-listing! It should have no bearing on the value of the house.”
It has bearing on the relative bargaining power of the buyer and seller.
“When I sell a used car do people ask me how long has it been on market, is this your second or third ad.”
That’s absurd, John. When you sell a used car do you lie to people about how long it’s been for sale? Do you falsify the odometer readings?
“I guess 19 year old used car buyers are smarter than 40 year old house buyers.’
I guess used car dealers aren’t as ethically challenged as some realtors.
according to serious liberal new york times, the age is not an issue for presidency and maccain is competent and attractive, at least to this woman.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/us/politics/21mccain.html?_r=3&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
by the way, this could be the miracle huckabee has been waiting for. but there is nothing there from mccains news conference this morning.
“Note to New Jersey Realtors: Stopping this practice is now my personal mission. I will go to no end to have this practiced stopped. From the local boards, to the NJAR, the legislators, the real estate commission, the DOBI, etc.”
Grim, can you post an action page somewhere with phone/fax/address info for key players in this game so that those of us who get bored can do a little lobbying as well?
bi,
Turn on CNN.
So I’ve now seen it several times since last night and now I have to ask: Why is it that folks who want to defend their own use of this practice think it will make them look good to say that they are living up to the ethical standards of used car dealers?
“I am as ethical as a used car dealer!” Wow.
bi,
You still kicking?
49 cindy
the existence of a fiduciary duty to Person X does not entitle the fiduciary to defraud Person Y.
SG, you said:
3. Disclosure about any other offers (not the amount, but at least some system to confirm whether there is another offer or the rep is bluffing)
Why not the amount?
If they can’t or won’t tell you what the other offer is, why should you believe that there is one?
There were two bidders on my parents’ house – two builders.
The family attorney called both of them and said: “One last shot – take your best shot.” And he told each one where the other was at. Gave them a week to consider their final bids.
I don’t understand all this secrecy about “there’s another bidder, but I can’t tell you what the bid is.” Just increase your offer – yeah, right.
If there are multiple bidders, all bidders should be informed as to the amounts. Otherwise, I would feel they were just blowing smoke.
3b (61),
Withdrawn
Rich
“No regulation is needed leave gov’t out. NAR will self regulate itself or the buyers will wisen up.”
Or the buyers will sue the cr@p out of the agents and take all their money.
“Eventhough I can’t stand Laryy Cudlow I love the Cudlow creed.”
Hookers and blow?
3b (61),
FYI:
SLD $458,000 10/25/2004
ACT $492,500 8/19/2007
PCH $469,900 10/3/2007
W-U $469,900 2/19/2008
njpatient
Two years ago, I saw an ad-fo-mercial-forecast by a real estate agent/economist in CA that just made me steam. Me!
I sent a link to it to the FTC, and a short time later, guy goes underground. Seriously, I always wondered if my demand to the FTC had any bearing on the man’s demise. I think I cc’d the White House e-mail address.
The suspect .pdf is no longer available on the web. But I saved my e-mail.
Dear Mr. Roach:
Please advise if this is a reasonable method of using signage within the real estate industry:
“1. Signs: If you have a listing where there are other (or many)for sale signs nearby, I would recommend that you call the other agents and see how many of them will remove their signs from their listings. At the very worst, rotate
your signs until one (or more) of the listings sell, then make sure it has a sold sign on it!”
This excerpt is from:
http://www.homesforsalehuntingtonbeach.com/Mid-YearOutlookJuly2006.doc
I’ve downloaded it and attached it for your review.
Based on my reading of your Plain English guide this type of agreement between agents would certainly restrict information to a huge number of consumers using commonly-acceptage signage as an information source.
“Agreements to restrict advertising. Restrictions on price advertising
can be illegal if they deprive consumers of important information.
Restrictions on non-price advertising also may be illegal if the
evidence shows the restrictions have anticompetitive effects and lack
reasonable business justification. The FTC recently charged a group of
auto dealers with restricting comparative and discount advertising to
the detriment of consumers.”
“Alert federal and state antitrust agencies if you suspect illegal
behavior. Consumers and businesses are important sources of information
about competitive conditions in the marketplace. While the FTC cannot
act on behalf of an individual consumer or business, the information you
provide can be helpful in revealing harm to competition and to
consumers.”
Thank you in advance for your input.
Pat XXXXX.
Thanks Rich. I was curious as I have been following that one. They had been asking 469K It had been on the market since August. Originally listed at 492K.
The buyers paid 458k in Oct of 04, and put about 20-25K in renovations into it.They way over paid back in 04.
There is another house down the block, a little smaller listed for 100k less, then the 469K they were asking.
80 Pat
Good on you!
I would also like them to require any hidden payments that keep comps inflated disclosed. You know there is all sorts of that stuff going on.
Our government at work, please note the third grade reading level:
http://www.fdic.gov/consumers/consumer/news/cnwin0708/fine_tuning.html
Hookers and blow?
Yes Sir. That too.
Nice job Grim!
Sorry I missed it, I was up doing work, but had sports on.
JM
#75 scribe
3. Disclosure about any other offers (not the amount, but at least some system to confirm whether there is another offer or the rep is bluffing)
Why not the amount?
If they can’t or won’t tell you what the other offer is, why should you believe that there is one?
The family attorney called both of them and said: “One last shot – take your best shot.” And he told each one where the other was at. Gave them a week to consider their final bids.
I don’t understand all this secrecy about “there’s another bidder, but I can’t tell you what the bid is.” Just increase your offer – yeah, right.
If there are multiple bidders, all bidders should be informed as to the amounts. Otherwise, I would feel they were just blowing smoke.
This info is very important I feel, to protect buyers. If a mysterious second bidder came into the picture while in atty review and put in an offer, why cant buyer #1 know how much buyer #2 offered?
re: 69 bi
I believe I predicted John McCain would be Jennifer Flowered.
I can’t wait for the Willie Hortoning to start on how McCain was a baby killer in NAM and then of course the relentless switfboating will start. I have already read some dirt written by former POWs who reached out to McCain and his wife for support and were left out in the cold.
This election will set a new standard for Modern elections on how low the campaigns and their supporters will go.
But then they should just get rid of the DOM data field altogether.
I agree Ann.
Jim,
Here is the only hate mail/hate comment you will recieve fromm this realtor.
I hate you for not letting me know it was on last night, was it posted and I missed it. I was waiting for it.
Can someone youtube it?? Please…
Hate you
KL
a gary type rant…… (not an insult to gary)
I have had enough of the media talking about all of the poor decieved home buyers who used loans that they couldnt afford and are now in danger of foreclosure. The home buyers are always described as having used loans that they dint understand. What the F ever happened to personal responsibility and reading a contract before you sign???? there is no excuse, you should have have your attorney or other financial professional who you have hired advise you on any financial or legal documents that you are going to sign and do not fully understand.
When will the media actually call these people out for what they are/were greedy friskies eating sheeple!!!
I have good friends who fall into this category, but i am sorry sometimes the truth hurts and you are an adult learn from your mistake and move on!
But then they should just get rid of the DOM data field altogether.
That is an option. But you couldn’t just eliminate the DOM display, you would also need to prohibit the advertisement of market data based on that DOM.
re mccain
he will be ripped apart with the firt in his past. i have read a few bits and pieces and it sounds like he may have more skeletons then the local cemetary.
he will be ripped apart with the firt in his past. i have read a few bits and pieces and it sounds like he may have more skeletons then the local cemetary.
Actually I think the people like a player in the white house. However, if he was to loose the nomination then he would be an excellent spokesperson for Viagra.
I can see Monica send her resume to the white house the day McCain swears in.
Just hitting the news wires, the February Philadelphia Fed, a regional manufacturing survey, came in at -24.0. Economists expected a reading of -10.0. Since the reading is below 0, it it reflects a retraction in manufacturing in the region. Similarly, a recent NY Empire State Index disappointed, falling more than expected. This is not a good number, but it is important to keep in mind this is just a surve
93 kettle
Of course. It’s fairly well known that he cheated repeatedly on his first wife before dumping her for a much younger heiress who bankrolled his political career. That’s why the family values and Christian Coalition crowd on the Republican side hate him so.
The video of the Nightline episode seems to be available now!
link??!?
From CR
the dominoes continue to fall
Mastercard has invested some of their working capital in Auction Rate Securities (ARS). Right now they can’t sell the ARS. There is little credit risk, but this could be a liquidity concern for other companies.
And it appears, according to the following Bloomberg article that the reason the auctions are failing is because the investment banks are no longer backstopping the auctions
This shows the spread of the credit crunch. The banks are suffering a liquidity crisis (because of a solvency crisis). They are not backstopping the ARS, forcing state and local governments to pay higher rates on the ARS or refinance at a higher rate with longer term maturities – and causing a potential liquidity problem for corporations.
Nevermind, that whole hate mail, I found it! Your still my hero. Great Piece!
I agree with clot, this practice makes more work for us. As I’ve stated before, I dont check histories on every house I show, but I do it when the buyer wants to make an offer. NJMLS has an easier history checker, however you have to be careful of address changes, sometimes 55-57 main street will be listed as that, sometimes as 55 Main sometimes at 57 main… convenient way to lose the history, again making more work for agents, we need these facts for our sellers as much as our buyers.
KL
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4321864
100#, Artemis, what is that? i thought you were posting grim’s nightline interview.
“bi Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 10:28 am
100#, Artemis, what is that? i thought you were posting grim’s nightline interview.”
It’s grim’s nightline interview.
Bi – you were probably confused by the commercial. You have to keep watching.
“Bi – you were probably confused by the commercial. You have to keep watching.”
He watches like he invests: short time horizons.
bi – You are a piece of work!
No harm meant to anyone else here, but it’s waiting to see what will come out of bi’s keyboard next that keep me coming back here for more.
JB just watched the piece you came across great!
A used car salesmen is to be as trusted as much as the sellers agent. They are not working for you and are trying to sell a product.
I sold a used car recently, no potential buyer asked me anything about how long has it been for sale. The all had KBB values, checked carfax to see if I had clean title and made an offer. No one wanted to pay one cent more that it was worth. The same info is available to homebuyers but they are more irrational.
BTW, have you all witnessed the jump in gas prices. It’s up 12 cents since Monday in my neck of the woods. Looks like the summer driving season and inherent collusion in gasoline price fixing has come early this year.
[95] NJP:
Here… I fixed it for you…
…he cheated repeatedly on his first wife before dumping her for a much younger heiress who bankrolled his political career. That’s why the family values and Christian Coalition crowd on the Republican side love him so…he figured out the ‘do as I say and not as I do’ rule…
108
“I sold a used car recently, no potential buyer asked me anything about how long has it been for sale.”
So what? Did you offer up false information? No. Why not? Because you don’t want to get nailed for fraud.
104#, great. now grim can beat obama. but when i first clicked the link. it came out the interview with ron jeremy – which was next to that clip.
“He watches like he invests: short time horizons.”
patient [105],
Bi probably saw a commercial reminding him/her of a margin clerk.
Good Progress today on the blog! Lotsa resentment and bitterness!! Good! Sharpen up those pitchforks, the smell of capitulation is in the air!
Also got that old sweater Ron Jeremy since I’m at work I decided to not proceed.
Re: McCains affair
The Republicans ought to be happy that it was an adult woman.
great. now grim can beat obama.
What?
great job grim. that abcnews site is a disaster.
relisting affects more than the days on the market count. it also skews the percent of asking price houses sell for. when realtors advertize that houses in an area are currently selling for 98% of asking, this is not true because they do not take into account all of the price cuts that occur (most of them?) when relisting.
it is so completely obvious that relisting is a market manipulation tactic. I do not think that common law fraud is a sufficient deterrant to this since a plaintiff needs to prove intent to defraud under this standard.
What is needed is a standard akin to the anti-fraud rules of the Securities Act whereby a seller and his agent will be strictly liable for material misrepresentations of fact.
Real estate is the biggest investment most people ever make and more people own real estate than own stocks. It does not make sense that those offering securities are held to a higher informational standard than those offering real estate.
hughsrep has a very good point. that could actually be a positive for campaign talking point for him.
there is also this,
congress’ criminal record
* 29 members of Congress have been accused of spousal abuse.
* 7 have been arrested for fraud.
* 19 have been accused of writing bad checks.
* 117 have bankrupted at least two businesses.
* 3 have been arrested for assault.
* 71 have credit reports so bad they can’t qualify for a
credit card.
* 14 have been arrested on drug-related charges.
* 8 have been arrested for shoplifting.
* 21 are current defendants in lawsuits.
* And in 1998 alone, 84 were stopped for drunk driving, but released after they claimed Congressional immunity.
Kettle1,
That bogus list has been floating around for years. I am surprised that you’re gullible enough to believe it.
“Real estate is the biggest investment most people ever make and more people own real estate than own stocks. It does not make sense that those offering securities are held to a higher informational standard than those offering real estate.”
well put, skep.
ket – pretorius is right.
congress’ criminal record
* 29 members of Congress have been accused of spousal abuse.
* 7 have been arrested for fraud.
1999 called. They want their rumor email back.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/congress.asp
BCBob, talking about short-term horizons…. GLD has clocked a 100% return in just 9 quarters. That’s some quick move, right?
Took some major gold coins off the table today, upped my stops and will let the balance ride free.
Once Grim fixes the information asymmetry, I wonder if there is any way to fix the coordination asymmetry.
One feature of having 10,000 houses listed in a registry and sold thorugh 100 agents is that an agent has the potential of coordinating the individual listings. On the other hand, buyers usually operate individually, even with a buyer’s agent.
Are there ways to coordinate buyers to alter the bargaining power? For example, does it ever make sense for one buyer to put in a
-30% low ball bid, below another buyer’s -25% low ball bid, just to help the -25% bid seem more palatable?
Intersting move by the NY Times. They love the neocon. This move is going to unify the party behind McCain and help legitimize him as a conservative candidate.
yes i was lazy with the list. i put a little more effort into this one. most people on this list have left or been kicked out of office but the implications remain the same.
first there is
James Traficant,
Randy Cunningham,
Dan Rostenkowski
William Jefferson
then from the AP (2002)
Jul 30, 2002
The Associated Press
Since the 1970s, more than a dozen congressmen have been convicted in criminal court. Their cases and sentences include:
– Rep. Andrew J. Hinshaw, R-Calif., spent a year in jail after being convicted in 1976 of accepting bribes when he was county tax assessor. He lost the primary election and resigned at the end of his term.
– Rep. Charles Diggs Jr., D-Mich., was convicted in 1978 of operating a payroll kickback scheme in his congressional office. He served seven months of a three-year prison term. He was re-elected, then resigned in 1980.
– Rep. Michael Myers, D-Pa., served 20 1/2 months of a three-year prison sentence for accepting bribes from FBI agents impersonating Arab businessmen. He was convicted in 1980 and expelled from Congress.
– Four other House members were convicted in the Arab businessmen bribery scandal: Democratic Reps. John Murphy of New York, Frank Thompson of New Jersey, John Jenrette of South Carolina and Raymond Lederer of Pennsylvania. Thompson and Murphy were sentenced to three years; Jenrette, two years; and Lederer, one year.
– Rep. Mario Biaggi, D-N.Y., was convicted in 1988 of extorting nearly $2 million from defense contractor Wedtech Corp. He resigned from Congress and served two years and two months of an eight-year sentence. He was defeated for re-election in 1992.
– Rep. Mel Reynolds, D-Ill., was sentenced in 1995 to five years in prison for having sex with an underage campaign worker. He resigned from Congress, then was sentenced in 1997 to 6 1/2 years for bank fraud and other violations. The second sentence, which was to run at the same time as first, was commuted in 2001 by President Clinton.
– Rep. Walter Tucker III, D-Calif., was sentenced in 1996 to two years and three months in prison for accepting and demanding bribes while mayor of a Los Angeles suburb. He resigned from Congress a week after his 1995 conviction.
– Rep. Dan Rostenkowski, D-Ill., pleaded guilty in 1996 to two felony mail fraud charges, lost re-election and served 15 months in prison. Clinton pardoned him in 2000.
i admit i was lazy with the list, it wasnt meant to make a point, although i should have said that. I do not take the list as truth for obvious reasons besides the fact that nothing you see on the web should be believed without some sort of secondary verification. Mea Culpa
lisoosh – you had asked about lowest approval ratings yesterday.
http://137.99.31.42/CFIDE/roper/presidential/webroot/presidential_rating.cfm
i admit i was lazy with the list, it was meant to make a point, although i should have said that. I do not take the list as truth for obvious reasons besides the fact that nothing you see on the web should be believed without some sort of secondary verification. Mea Culpa
The re-listing issue used to not be of much interest to me…until I realized two things:
1) The intent of re-listing is deception, pure and simple.
2) The result of the deception ends up hurting both individual sellers and the market of sellers as a whole, by providing a mechanism by which precious days on market can be wasted (at ostensibly no adverse consequence to the seller) in the pursuit of a sucker who can be induced to pay an over-market price.
In both examples, a selling client is either deliberately or inadvertently made accessory to a fraud.
Who- or, what- is helped by such a thing?
dream [123],
It’s been amazing. However, BB drew the line in the sand, world investors and speculators have responded. It’s going to the moon, long term. It will make RE look like a walk in the park.
It was overpriced at $450, never will break thru the 27 year downtrend line at $550. $700 is a bubble. It will fail at the all time high, $850. It will never reach $1,000, blah, blah, blah.
Maybe all the doubters should step up to the plate and get short?
All disclaimers.
James Traficant is an American treasure:
http://www.traficant.com/speech.htm
126 kettle
You left off Bob Ney (R – OH) who just got out of jail yesterday on his way to rehab; Tom Delay (R – TX), currently facing multiple indictments; John Doolittle (R – CA) and Tom Feeney (R – FL), currently under investigation for ties to Jack Abramoff; Rick Renzi (R – AZ), currently facing multiple FBI investigations; and Ted Stevens (R – AK), under investigation for bribery.
let’s see, if I am shopping for cheese and the label says aged 2 yrs I will pay more than if it says aged 6 months. If I am shopping for wine and the label says 1996 Bordeaux, I will pay more than if it says 2006 Bordeaux. Wine and cheese producers understand that misrepresenting these facts calls into question the quality of all wine and cheese, so they are vigilant in making sure information on the label is accurate.
when a trade group allows or encourages misinformation about its products, it undermines confidence in the product itself.
Relisting takes the heat because it’s a well-known and widespread practice.
But as Skep says, it boils down to something much more important, the disclosure of material information regarding a property or transaction.
The issue is that an individual agent shouldn’t have the liberty to determine what is or is not materially important to the buyer.
While we may only be talking about DOM here, it isn’t hard to imagine something considerably more serious not being disclosed. The wanton disregard for ethics and standards makes it clear that these types of decisions can’t be left to individual agents to decide, lest we open the door to fraud and abuse.
hey, anyone hear Ara Hov on bloomberg this AM? I tuned in part way thru but was it just me that you couldn’t figure out why NY Lotto Lil’ bit of luck was talking housing? Sounded the same.
p.s.
Olick is a biter.
make (67)-
Agreed. Funny how many people howl for intense gubmint regulation of something like residential RE, yet go ballistic over taxes spiraling out of control. Nobody ever seems to see the correlation. And, of course, the corruption and inefficiency endemic to the gubmint regulator exponentially makes everything worse…including the basic, well-intentioned regulatory process.
Gubmint cannot do or fix anything. All it can do is enter any situation, and make it worse. One day, we may begin to understand that.
I like how he plays it off as the Buyer’s agent is going to inform the Buyer. All they care about is the commission and most of those towns the RE agen community is so incestuous I am sure this all goes down with a wink and nudge between the agents.
scribe (75)-
I know you’d like to have a road map from A to B on the amount/quality of other offers that may be made for a subject property, but don’ you think that’s tilting the field the buyer’s way just a bit?
Or, do you think it’s ok to tilt the field…as long as it’s to the buyer’s benefit?
Divulging confidential information to a buyer in a situation like that is as bad as the practice of re-listing. The idea of agency is to be a strong advocate for your client, without defrauding or dealing unfairly with those on the opposite side.
The video is there and it works just fine.
“There’s another bidder, but I can’t tell you what the bid is. Just increase your offer.”
This is the single biggest reason I declared war on the industry. It reeks of unscrupulous practice and infuriates me. We went through a bidding war back in 2000 and I couldn’t believe this was/is part of the game that is played in this industry. My wife and I were shocked.
Hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake and you are made to feel like a piece of garbage.
#139
Isn’t that the same as an auction–which by itself doesn’t really favors a buyer or seller. And isn’t auction usually good for produce an effecient price?
138
Just watched the video. OMG.
It’s not like we’re not mentioning water in the basement or something. Now THAT would be fraudulent. Or maybe that is something a buyer’s agent should have to find out for you.
Niece’s business practices aside, I can’t believe that someone would go on Nightline and SAY all of that. What does that make a person? I guess people really like to be on the teevee.
Clot,
Nope.
I think the process we used was fair because it was transparent.
How does it skewer the process towards buyers?
If anything, we got a little more because one of the bidders decided to raise his bid, while the other guy stayed firm and lost.
I can’t imagine trying to play that game – “we have another bid, but we can’t tell you what it is” – with these guys. Builders are serious all-cash buyers.
Why should retail buyers get less information – and less respect?
“Gubmint cannot do or fix anything. All it can do is enter any situation, and make it worse. One day, we may begin to understand that.”
Clot– I agree that gov’t all too often sticks its nose where it doesn’t belong, but there is such a thing as market failure. Markets cannot function on any broad scale without confidence that information is accurate, contracts will be impartially enforced and that bad actors will be punished.
141 gary
I remember walking into an old bi-level in Northwest Bergen County for an open house one day, the place is empty, the bitchy agent has one of those cell phone things on her ears because I guess she is so important and busy she can’t hold it. My husband then asks her, oh, how’s the market doing these days around here, or has it been busy today, something really harmless, just small talk. She then launches into some lecture asking us if we’re qualified, do we have a down payment, we’re not going to be able to buy this house unless we are highly qualified, on and on. Like it’s our problem it was totally overpriced and empty.
Then we happened upon another of her listings where she was trying to pass off this tiny small nook that had slanty ceilings, maybe four feet tall, as a BEDROOM. Since then, she’s changed the listing on that one. What a creep that gal is.
I don’t personally see a problem with the multiple bidders scenario on a house. You just need to decide ahead of time what you are willing to pay. You shouldn’t let the format of the auction determine your price.
Stu (106)-
“…but it’s waiting to see what will come out of bi’s keyboard next that keep me coming back here for more.”
Here’s the one I’m waiting for, Stu:
“i have received another margin call and am apparently going to be bankrupcy [sic]. will have to unplug computer and begin most profitable career selling dirty water hot dogs on 14th street. btw, i advise long xhb and short north sea brent..”
dream [123],
It’s been amazing. However, BB drew the line in the sand, world investors and speculators have responded. It’s going to the moon, long term. It will make RE look like a walk in the park.
It was overpriced at $450, never will break thru the 27 year downtrend line at $550. $700 is a bubble. It will fail at the all time high, $850. It will never reach $1,000, blah, blah, blah.
Maybe all the doubters should step up to the plate and get short?
All disclaimers.
giys it’s not that th eGold is going up it’s really the dollar going down. This is something called INFLATION. Just look at the rest of the commodities and they all have doubled in the last 9 quaters.
Joe six pack has no idea of what the fed is doing to ruin this great nation and it’s financial system by trying to prevent a recession that was due in 2001 and has now become a monster and they’re still trying to prevent it. It make sme think that Bernanke is actually disguised as BI.
Flee the dollar and dollar based investments.
The argument that China will keep lending us money so that we can buy it’s products is NONSENSE.
Just take a look at the this article from the economist.
I have to admit that thanks to BC and Peter Schiff I’m well positioned to make out like a bandit in the next 5 yrs.
http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10688833
njpatient Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 9:19 am
“That’s because it isn’t true. The NAR is very glad to have the asymmetric information favor the seller.”
Sorry patient, for once I will have to disagree. The NAR cares about NOTHING but the interest of the Realtors. That is their job. That is what they are paid to do. Period
The solution really is the formation of an independant non-profit lobby group on behalf of the CONSUMERS, be they sellers or buyers, that focuses on ensuring they are treated fairly and that Realtors are held to the standards they claim to stand for.
Anybody up for the formation of a Real Estate Watchdog group?
“Gubmint cannot do or fix anything. All it can do is enter any situation, and make it worse.”
Would you include the Securities Act and the Exchange Act in that rubric?
Duckweed
“And isn’t auction usually good for produce an effecient price?”
Without good information? No. See “Winner’s Curse”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winner's_curse
patient (121)-
It is sad that Realtors aspire to be identified and trusted as financial professionals, yet constantly clamor to be held to the lowest possible standards of behavior.
Today is one of those days when I wonder why I do what I do.
The solution really is the formation of an independant non-profit lobby group on behalf of the CONSUMERS, be they sellers or buyers, that focuses on ensuring they are treated fairly and that Realtors are held to the standards they claim to stand for.
That’s like saying that Used Car Salesman are all saints and they care their customers and the lemons they sell are actually priced right and now is the best time to buy since we all know that used cars are valuable assets and great investments. Plus it’s a sure way to make your friends and family jelous as they will think that you are a young succesfull professional.
Duckweed (124)-
You mean, fight apparent collusion on the listing side by organizing the buyer side around a mechanism of fraudulent straw-man offers?
Pot, meet kettle.
Clotpoll Says:
“It is sad that Realtors aspire to be identified and trusted as financial professionals, yet constantly clamor to be held to the lowest possible standards of behavior.”
Post of the day.
Oh and you do what you do because you make a good living out of it.:-)
Ann
“It’s not like we’re not mentioning water in the basement or something. Now THAT would be fraudulent. Or maybe that is something a buyer’s agent should have to find out for you.”
It’s funny – by Niece’s definition, if he told you the flooded basement was dry that would be ok, even if the basement was locked and he told you he couldn’t unlock it, so long as there is someone else across town who has a key and would unlock it for a fee (even if you aren’t aware of this fact).
The contortion is spectacular.
What the F ever happened to personal responsibility and reading a contract before you sign????
——————————————
People either lack common sense or they can’t take the blame for there screw ups.
Last night I was watching Buy Me, funny show. The couple was blaming the realtor for not selling there home. There were 3 cracks in the foundation and there house was a disaster crap laying everywhere, to much clutter. House was listed at 225k (Canada) and they were not taking the realtor’s advise to clean up the place.
People don’t want to feel like they did something wrong so its always someone else’s fault.
People need to take responsibility for there actions. At the end of the day the homeowner was the one who signed on the dotted line. Common sense people. You make 60k per year you cannot afford a 300k house
No bailout these people need to lose there homes, they need to learn the hard way. Next time maybe they won’t be so stupid.
BC (131)-
Hear, hear. Put Fort Knox on a boat, and sneak it to China, for all I care.
All disclaimers. I’m Texas-hedged, gold/silver, and spring-loaded for implosion.
Grim,
I admire your integrity. It’s sorely needed in this world.
“Today is one of those days when I wonder why I do what I do.”
Every day other than wire-transfer day is one of those days for me.
I tell the little patients that Daddy helps people. I just don’t tell them WHICH people.
“Put Fort Knox on a boat, and sneak it to China, for all I care.”
That ship has sailed….
“Pot, meet kettle.”
Kettle’s day just brightened considerably.
“Sorry patient, for once I will have to disagree. ”
Bite your tongue! Actually, we’re not far apart because what you say is correct (they only care about Realtors), but I think they perceive seller-happy outcomes as favoring Realtors more than buyer-happy outcomes do.
lisoosh,
the flaw in your planned consumer group is where does the funding come from? who ever provides the funding will ultimately drive the interest of the origination. Joe schmo isnt going to be funding this group. perhaps you could set up a buyers lobby and when you go to buy a home you buy a temporary membership with the membership fee acting as funding for the group. any source of funding besides buyers themselves will end up with the group not acting in buyers interest.
hello pot, i think we may have met before :)
Congrats Grim,
I couldn’t resist smiling this stupid relisting agent. He will be given 40 days in a hot oven and his time will be relisted once every 39 days.
incase anyone was curious gold is no longer stored at fort know in any significant quantity
gary (141)-
So, the listing agent is not supposed to get the best price and terms possible for his client? If you want a full measure of fiduciary care for the buyer side, you have to allow it for the seller, too.
I’ve seen enough situations in which an agent attempted to represent that other offers existed- when, in fact, they didn’t- to know that it usually backfires in the listing agent’s face. Besides, the presence of multiple offers shouldn’t change the buyer’s mind on what he is/isn’t willing to pay.
“There’s another bidder, but I can’t tell you what the bid is. Just increase your offer.”
vodka (169)-
Think I can stop by Fort Knox and ask for a bar or two as a souvenir?
I’ve seen enough situations in which an agent attempted to represent that other offers existed- when, in fact, they didn’t- to know that it usually backfires in the listing agent’s face. Besides, the presence of multiple offers shouldn’t change the buyer’s mind on what he is/isn’t willing to pay.
Nonsense. As a buyer I’m willing to pay X but I offer (X-5), since there are no offers the owner would take my offer. But the lying agent says hey you have to incerase your offer cause we have a nother offer and you now offer X and you actaully get the house.
Why should the seller be able to get 5 more by fraud? That’s exactly what it is. Fraud.
“Besides, the presence of multiple offers shouldn’t change the buyer’s mind on what he is/isn’t willing to pay.”
I’m not sure that I agree with this. If a property has a value to the buyer of $X, that doesn’t mean the buyer will bid $X. So the presence of a second bidder may cause the buyer to increase the amount of his bid despite not increasing the amount he’s willing to pay.
So there is a circumstance in which a buyer, acting completely rationally, will increase his bid based on the belief (which may be erroneous) that there is a second bidder out there, because absent the existence of the second bidder, the buyer would bid _less_ than he would otherwise be willing to pay.
If a seller’s agent tells the buyer that there is a second bidder when there is not, I would consider that fraud.
scribe (144)-
Actually, the particular process you described in #75 is a great way for the seller to really exploit the situation and end up getting more. It’s a process that I’ve used in the past in multiple offer situations, because divulging everything about all offers to all parties is enough to trigger the 1-2 emotional bidders into a frenzy. I believe this practice is supremely ethical and legal (for the reasons you stated), yet ironically, I catch real hatred from the buyer agents involved whenever I proceed this way. I think the emotion comes from the same place as does the Wizard of Oz’ when the curtain is drawn back.
The objection I have is to divulging information to buyers in a multiple offer situation in a piecemeal, selective fashion that ends up possibly advantaging one party over another.
#172
if the listing agent lies about multiple offers in order to induce you to pay more, that is certainly fraud.
Clot’s point, which I think is accurate, is that the actual existance of multiple offers shouldn’t cause you to pay more than you think the house is worth, provided you stick to your own valuation and do not react to the other bidders.
This relisting bruhaha is much ado about nothing. There’s nothing wrong with taking a house off the market temporarily and relisting it when conditions are more favorable for a sale. This is like a car dealer refreshing his car lot by moving the cars around.
If you want the house, you’ll want it whether it’s been relisted or not.
All of this won’t matter if the wrong person gets into the presidency. Obama looks like he’s going to be the democratic nominee and I don’t care how nice and likeable he may seem, it will be necessary to work up the same passion we have against Hilliary to stop him. He will do his level best to redistribute the wealth in this country as well as a bunch of other extreme liberal initiatives.
I’ve had my pocket under assault enough, I don’t need anyone making me pay more taxes. I don’t need anyone costing me more money.
skep (145)-
Market assymetry is a long way from market failure. Especially when there are ways to work around the asymmetry.
You touch the “gubmint regulator” button, and there’s no going back. Ever.
#Clot
Pot meeting kettle. But does coordination makes buyers OR sellers black? What serves the buyer’s interest when the seller side has a collective bargaining aspect built into the structure of the market place against individual buyers?
Say Abe values 123 POSCAPE Lane better. Bob values 456 MCMANSION drive. Both of them saw both property. Surely a buyer agent can go to the POSCAPE and say, “I have Abe offer at -20 and Bob offering at -25” while to MCMANSION he can say “I have Bob offering at -25 while Abe offering at -20.”
By coordinating their preference amongst themselves first, Bob and Abe have just avoided a bidding war, and presented a -20 and a -25 legitimate bids to each of the property.
But there is currently no mechanism for doing that, while a seller agent can list houses at a price to defend a neighborhood’s value.
This is like a car dealer refreshing his car lot by moving the cars around.
But you are missing one big thing with that, you cannot change a carfax report when the dealership purchased the vehichle, that is illegal.
Moving a lot around would = a homeowner rearranging furniture not relisiting.
Correction.
Surely a buyer agent can go to the POSCAPE and say, “I have Abe offer at -20 and Bob offering at -25″ while to MCMANSION he can say “I have Bob offering at -20 while Abe offering at -25.”
soosh (150)-
Not exactly. Here’s my list of NAR priorities:
1) Its constituency, agents. First and foremost…no doubt.
2) Sellers. Old RE saying: he who controls inventory, controls the game. If we can’t get sellers, we can’t control inventory, so supporting the seller side is a priority.
174 clot
I think that’s the right way to do it. Interestingly, when we auction a corporation to competing bidders, we usually do NOT tell the competing bidders what the dollar value and contract terms offered by the other bidders are. The reason we take this approach is that it is astounding how frequently there is only one serious bidder. Even more astounding is the frequency with which a banker on the buy side will tell the banker on the sell side that if it later turns out that the buyer was the only serious bidder, they’ll never get his business again.
Happens over and over, and the bankers never make good on the threat.
Unless the RE agents are more ethical than the bankers, then I would assume there are a lot of phantom “competing bids” out there.
Homer #159: Buy Me is one of my favorite guilty pleasure shows. I especially liked the one with the older woman who wouldn’t reduce the price of her mansion even after it turned out that her basement “renovations” had no permits, her closets were full of crap, and her neighbor’s similar mansion went for over $200K less than her asking price.
176 reinvestor
You become more irrelevant by the day.
duck (180)-
You mean, provide a fast-moving liquid market for an essentially illiquid asset class?
I don’t think so. Your analogy is not feasible or sustainable in a real way.
181 clot
yeah – THAT’s what I was trying to say – yeah…
183 Jill
“her closets were full of crap,”
Ya gotta feel sorry for the old people, though; it must be rough to get up in the middle of the night and mistake your closet for your bathroom.
#187
LMAO thanks I needed a good laugh
reinvestor
“I’ve had my pocket under assault enough, I don’t need anyone making me pay more taxes. I don’t need anyone costing me more money.”
At least your able to acknowledge that most of your losses are your own fault. That’s a good first step.
Re phantom offers
It depends what your definition of “is” is. No but seriously.
I think it’s a matter of what your definition of offer is. “They have another offer” could mean anything. Maybe someone just said verbally they might be interested in putting an offer in but not until Thursday when they can come back and measure the dining room, etc etc. This turns into, “They have another offer.”
As long as it’s just verbal, it could mean anything at all and probably does.
176
You can’t have it both ways. Either DOM means something or it doesn’t. Realtors should just get rid of the data entirely if it makes no difference at all.
But how do potential buyers protect themselves from non-existing bidders? No realtor who is (n my eyes) trying to defraud the original bidder is under any form of obligation to prove the existence of the second bidder, are they?
#177
I think we’re on the same page here, but
I will say that the key to any market is the easy availability of quality information. people complain about the cost of compliance with gov’t regs such as securities laws (and other similar regs like listing requirements for NYSE), but they often don’t consider how expensive it would be to independently verify all of the information these disclosures require.
Please. Relisting does not alter basic facts about a house. Those things are obervable. All we’re talking about is relisting a house when market conditions are more favorable. It’s no big deal.
Homer Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 1:09 pm
This is like a car dealer refreshing his car lot by moving the cars around.
But you are missing one big thing with that, you cannot change a carfax report when the dealership purchased the vehichle, that is illegal.
Moving a lot around would = a homeowner rearranging furniture not relisiting.
patient (152)-
“Would you include the Securities Act and the Exchange Act in that rubric?”
Nope…but I’d certainly include a lot of the gubmint’s follow up in the intervening years (Sarbox comes to mind). It just seems to me that original legal concepts are best left as that; the constant attempt to perfect the law and devise laws “relevant” to changing times or more modern situations ends up turning things to shit.
I’m no attorney, but overlegislation seems to me to be a large problem.
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/lehman-cut-10-workforce-report/story.aspx?guid=%7B8548001D%2DA10F%2D4A4F%2DAA59%2DBBBCC236F4F2%7D&dist=hplatest
Lehman to cut 10% of workforce: report
>
I think the number should be 2k+ and not 200.
#194 – You’ve completely missed the argument. This isn’t about sellers who pull their homes off to wait for a better market, this is about agents who withdraw and relist homes in order to misrepresent the time on market.
I think the number should be 2k+ and not 200.
That is if the plan is for a 10% across the board.
Full time employees: 28K
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/pr?s=LEH
make (172)-
So, you have the right to be shown the other offer? What if the other offer does exist, and the seller ends up being disadvantaged?
Stop trying to put words in my mouth. I did not say how or why my pocket was under assault and I damn sure didn’t say whose fault it was. I’m not going to allow you to turn simple comments into anything incendiary.
njpatient Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 1:16 pm
reinvestor
“I’ve had my pocket under assault enough, I don’t need anyone making me pay more taxes. I don’t need anyone costing me more money.”
At least your able to acknowledge that most of your losses are your own fault. That’s a good first step.
If I like the house, why would I care about how long its been on the market? All things being equal, if there’s no problem with the house, I will buy if I am inclined without regard to whether it’s been on the market for one day or one year.
grim Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 1:22 pm
#194 – You’ve completely missed the argument. This isn’t about sellers who pull their homes off to wait for a better market, this is about agents who withdraw and relist homes in order to misrepresent the time on market.
Situation: I am thinking of buying run-down house for very cheap. I still do nto have enough cash to pay for it – I might have 20%.
If the house does not have CO – it is impossible to get conventional mortgage from banks – is it a correct statement??
What are the one’s options with regards to financing/rehab loans?? Any info would be appreciated.
patient (173)-
“If a seller’s agent tells the buyer that there is a second bidder when there is not, I would consider that fraud.”
I would, too. However, the way I deal with many multiple offer situations (lay the details about ALL the offers on the table, to ALL the buyers) seems to piss off everyone involved, even though I believe it to be a very effective solution.
pack it up, pack it in.
Hovnanian: U.S. housing bottom at year end
http://www.reuters.com/article/AerospaceandDefense08/idUSN2145974620080221
All we’re talking about is relisting a house when market conditions are more favorable.
If the original listing MLS contract hasn’t expired than I would agree.
But it about the deception behind most relisting which is to reset the DOM.
If it isn’t a big deal than you would agree to show a cumulative DOM number on public listings?
Also, I’m sure you would agree that public listing should say “Newly Relisted”, not “New Listing” as it showed on the Nightline piece?
(Grim, Your head looked SO small since the last time I watched one of those Nightline pices on real estate.)
Besides Grim, if I have a agent that’s selling my home, I want them to do whatever to list in favorable conditions. If they have to pull the listing and relist when conditions are more favorable, that’s what I want them to do.
171 clott
you can always try, let me know how it goes :)
(176)-
Like releasing a fart in a crowded room…here he is!
Re101-
You’re right. People would probably buy a house regardless of DOM, but what’s wrong with disclosure? RE is a very public marketplace. Why try to pull silly tricks like this and hope you don’t get caught and cause confusion for house buyers and agents?
I think this is just one example of one industry that has not kept the trust of the consumers. There are many more industries and examples.
JM
194 reinvestor
If it’s no big deal, then don’t defend it.
DOM: – I think right now days on the market are important because it gives buyer an idea on how motivated the sellers are.
If house was just listed at astronomical price they will not be ready to negotiate lower.
If it was on the market for 300+ day – well they might realize that they are not going to get their price and be erady to negotiate.
Right now many realtors are insisting on keeping their listings high – they are saying to their sellers – you are going to get low-ball offers anyways, so list your house at 20% above minimal price you would agree to get.
I know of at least 2 cases.
195
OK.
I’m a big fan of the ’33 Act and ’34 Act, so that’s good. You’ll get no argument from me on SOX (perhaps better acronymed SarPox so as to pick up two ailments at once), and if 162(m) and 409A died a quick death we’d all be better for it (though I’ll defend 280G).
211
As much as I think relisting is wrong, I don’t think a high DOM means you are going to have any better shot of your offer being accepted. Sometimes a high DOM just means the sellers are delusional, stubborn, crazy, don’t really have to move, etc.
198 bear
Meh. Pretorius can explain how none of those layoffs are in NYC and how this actually represents a net _increase_ in hiring by Lehman.
202 Al
You can buy a house without a CO, you just can’t live there. Not sure on the financing part..
“Like releasing a fart in a crowded room…here he is!”
I dunno – at least the fart is sometimes funny.
I actually think long number days on the market indicates the opposite of motivation. If you are content to let your house sit on the market for a year, you probably do not really care whether you sell.
patient (182)-
Got a chuckle out of that one.
Bluff and feint will always be a part of business, no matter how heavily it’s regulated.
203 clot
I prefer your approach (both as a buyer and as a seller). I’m not big on gambling.
Clot, you said:
The objection I have is to divulging information to buyers in a multiple offer situation in a piecemeal, selective fashion that ends up possibly advantaging one party over another.
Then call them all simultaneously with the same information.
Level playing field. Everyone knows where everyone else is at.
Set a date for final bids, and stick with it.
And make it clear that final is final. If someone loses by a small margin and regrets it later – that’s it. No re-dos.
I could see a problem if you allow a losing bidder to reconsider and up a bid when the process is supposed to be over and done with.
Clot,
Other than that, I don’t see what the problem would be, so long as everyone has the same information and the same chance to re-bid on a fully informed basis.
Come on now. DOM is meaningless other than as an indication how slow the market is. Buyers already know that, so it means absolutely nothing if you want the house.
The fact is that there are things relevant to the value of a home and things that really aren’t. Now if a realtor was hiding a radon problem or etc, then that’s a problem, but of course, we’re not talking about that here.
The clamoring for this DOM and relisting information comes from what I refer to as the vulture segment of the buyer market. These people are looking to swoop down on unsuspecting sellers to take advantage of them. They figure the more DOM, the more desperate the seller. There’s no other earthly reason to know the DOM other than that. There definitely needs to be some protections put in place to protect unsuspecting sellers from this sort of abuse.
BklynHawk Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Re101-
You’re right. People would probably buy a house regardless of DOM, but what’s wrong with disclosure? RE is a very public marketplace. Why try to pull silly tricks like this and hope you don’t get caught and cause confusion for house buyers and agents?
I think this is just one example of one industry that has not kept the trust of the consumers. There are many more industries and examples.
JM
As I said, for me personally, the whole multiple offer thing reminds me of one big swindle. When we got caught up in the multiple bid scam, the agent, who was supposedly working for us said, “just keep bidding and I’ll let you know if you’re in the running.” I’m sorry Suzanne but if I didn’t know any better, it appears that you may be trying to fleece some unsuspecting souls.
If I happen to make a bid on a house and the realtor comes back with the “other offer” mantra, I’ll simply say buh-bye and move on.
Jim,
you go dude. There is a major deficit of people who care about ethics and honesty. I applaud your integrity.
Jay
Not sure how to translate DOM into seller’s psychology. But a high DOM does tell me that the market is not willing to bear the price of that particular house.
And information about what price a market will or will not bear says a lot about the price and the market.
#185
Thanks for the insight re liquidity v. ease of buyer organization, even though I think the buyers can still coordinate better even within the constrain of this illiquid asset class.
For example, circling back to the issue of multiple bid disclosure, what’s stopping one buyer from turning to the top bidder and ask, “what other properties are you looking at, want to work something out?”
I guess people don’t think that way.
Jason (192)-
Sometimes, you just takes yer chances. If your offer is a strong as it can be, and you lose out, you lost.
The other offer never existed? That means you’ll be the only player in the game for that house. Why worry about protecting yourself from something that doesn’t exist.
The real danger is in allowing an external force enough control over you to change your mind once you’ve reached a decision.
RE:
I’ll sell you some day old bread for half price? It’s actually 2 months old, but I just relisted it. That shouldn’t matter as there are plenty of chemicals preserving it no?
ReTard (200)-
“Stop trying to put words in my mouth.”
Would that someone could inject a gag ball into it instead.
RE says:
“I’m not going to allow you to turn simple comments into anything incendiary.”
Cause them there’s fightin’ words!
Al (202)-
“If the house does not have CO – it is impossible to get conventional mortgage from banks – is it a correct statement??”
Not correct. Some lenders don’t care at all about CO, termites, potable water, etc. Many towns will not issue a conventional CO on a house that’s not up to snuff, but they will issue a modified or temporary CO for a rehab. Absent that ability to issue special-circumstance COs, you’d never be able to close on a rehab or tear-down.
Most rehab mortgages involve a conventional element, plus a draw-against-reserve rehab feature that’s been calculated at the anticipated improved appraisal value.
Who cares about the sellers and their agents. They are dealing from a position of weakness, they’re crippled. Walk in and place your hands away from you, palms in. Wave your fingers towards your chest. If not acceptable, walk out. Let them jerk each other around. You don’t have time for their mindless games. You are dealing from a position of strength, utilize it.
Clotpoll Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 12:29 pm
patient (121)- It is sad that Realtors aspire to be identified and trusted as financial professionals, yet constantly clamor to be held to the lowest possible standards of behavior.
Today is one of those days when I wonder why I do what I do.
clot: Maybe it bothers your sense of order and justice, but in reality, doesn’t it serve your business prospects that the competition is stupid, lazy, indifferent, and without a moral compass?
what in the world is an “unsuspecting seller”?
red says:
what in the world is an “unsuspecting seller”?
Perhaps someone unwantingly foreclosed upon?
“what in the world is an “unsuspecting seller”?”
Those that may be receiving future bids from the LOD’s.
ReTard (206)-
“Besides Grim, if I have a agent that’s selling my home, I want them to do whatever to list in favorable conditions.”
The practice of re-listing, however, is a blatant attempt to manipulate those “conditions”, by implying that the home is freshly-offered into a competitive bidding environment.
It is not something that agents do to take advantage of a better selling environment at a later date.
Your disingenuous tone doesn’t make the practice right…
oh ok. cause it sounded like somebody getting eaten alive by a pack of predatory buyers
“what in the world is an “unsuspecting seller”?”
Even better answer: bi, when his margin calls come in
As a fellow Realtor, I completely agree with what you are saying James. You have my support.
Now back to my trolling and sarcasm :o
predatory buyers?
That’s not a bad nickname for us.
Only a complete idiot is buying real estate at the moment unless it is a distress sale anyhow. Maybe realtors can hang out in the parking lot of the Isuzu dealer to see if there are any idiots looking to buy a car that wont have replacement parts in five years.
The agent is trying to jack his commision, the bank wants to screw you on fees and rates, the buyer wants to screw the seller by getting it cheap and the seller wants to screw the buyer by getting him to over pay. Rarely will everyone be happy. Lots of screwing going on but unlike other screwing establishments there wont be a “happy ending”.
I saw the Predatory Buyers open for Motorhead in 1987.
Motorhead -> Lemmy -> God
what is all this talk of multiple bid offer strategies. I thought we we’re dealing with depreciating assets here.
WTF!
I come here for my market jitter news, my gold is up news, and for news on the soprano state. Somebody please post another negative dollar and negative real estate report before I lose focus.
Hey Clot, are Coach K and Roy going to have lunch together before the tourney this year? They need to patch things up for the annual Duke vs UNC coin toss to decide who gets the No. 1 seed in the big dance.
I don’t know…I bought a house in December 2006, and despite current market conditions, I am glad I have this house. It has really been fun living in and fixing up. If I had to do it over again, I would.
btw…did anybody else spot any suspiciously- $300-looking jeans on any interviewees appearing on a news show at 11:35 last night?
ChiFi (232)-
“…doesn’t it serve your business prospects that the competition is stupid, lazy, indifferent, and without a moral compass?”
Maybe in the long run, yes. But, the advantage accrues slowly and the clients that do come my way as the result of the incompetence of others often find me an excellent target for the pent-up anger caused by previous bad actors.
Once I can put clients like that thru “RE rehab”, it’s ok, though. And, it’s perfectly fair to be required to earn someone’s trust.
red (233)-
Victim of a secret, stealth foreclosure?
What has to happen is that the MLS must have Uniform practices of telling the history of a property on the listing report.
Like listed from sept 2007 to dec 2007, change of status, price, listed again in Jan 2008, etrc. etc. all this info included in the customer’s report and not only on the agent’s report. As a buyer you can requst that complete report for all the properties your agent is going to show you.
clott 248
is a stealth foreclosure something like leaving you r house on a normal work morning and then coming home to an empty home with a bolt on the door?
prof (244)-
I cannot wait to see Dook try to play like a bad Israeli professional team when the game is a one-and-done situation.
If we play Dook in the tourney, somebody’s getting a bloody nose…and it won’t be Hansbrough this year.
Shoe drops for municipal bonds.
http://www.minyanville.com/articles/MBI-abk/index/a/15993
Communities of Plywood: serious question that I’m wondering about with the Foreclosure crisis…When does a bank place Plywood on the windows? Are there town ordinances against this practice? Or do they let most homes sit vacant with curtains or shades installed?
prof (244)-
Of course, like all Tar Heel teams since the beginning of time, we cannot defend the 3-point line.
vodka (250)-
Nah. Just a bright, yellow lis pendens duct taped to your garage door, so your neighbors will be sure to see it.
The bolts and chains don’t come until the lenders hires a marshal to eject the borrower and secure the premises.
In much younger days, I was offered a job as a marshal.
Couldn’t do it.
My boys from Xavier will mop the floor with any of those ACC chumps.
Some new edumacational stuff
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/publications/nearretirement.html
He (257)-
Clemson, maybe…
Xavier? Is that a high school?
The their is a bid phenomena is big in Hudson County. Realtors here are tremendous liars. I have gone back and looked at tax records where the realtor told me there were “Mutiple Bids over asking” and the sales price is 15k less than the listing. The manipulations and tactics used by some realtors are deplorable. Places like Hoboken are out of hand making it realistically impossible to make heads or tails of the market.
Keep talking, this Xavier team is deeper than the Elite Eight team we had a few years ago and maybe this time we won’t get screwed by the refs against DOOK that time.
HEHE 257
if X ever played UNC, better hope they use non-acc refs, since the ACC guys seem to really like Hansbro. Guy is a bull in a china shop but averages only two fouls a game. I will guaran-damn-tee you that number goes up come NCAA time.
By the way Clot , in addition to stainless steel, 0 and 53 at is overrated.
Goldman Sachs likely to cut about 1,500 jobs: report
prof (263)-
Heels down 14 with 6 minutes to go…Dean Dome…vs. Clemson?
I turned to my daughter, and told her the game was as good as over. In our favor.
Congratulations. Brown beat Princeton to end a string of road losses to the same team that was almost as embarrassing as Clemson’s vs. UNC. Your team stands alone now.
Gaggggggg
prof (265)-
Just because the guy’s big, it doesn’t mean he’s fouling everybody. Seems to me it’s the other teams beating the crap out of him.
And, of course, Dook’s felonious assault of him last year.
“Places like Hoboken are out of hand making it realistically impossible to make heads or tails of the market.”
Having bought and sold two places in that town I can vouch that the RE agents in that town are some of the biggest lying sacks o’ sh*t on the planet.
Clot [267],
Dook up 10 at Dean Dome. Did your daughter tell you that she took the points.
Touche.
clot #268
Hansbro’s a great player. Key with him and UNC though, is the charity stripe. Same thing with Dook. The level of flop-artistry between these two teams is something to behold.
This Clemson may be the ultimate flop/choke team. Twice had the ‘heels by the b*lls, and couldn’t come through.
prof (272)-
I just want to see Paulus try to guard a player like OJ Mayo. That would be the highlight of the tourney for me.
BC (267)-
And, I didn’t tell her that I took the points…
Clot,
I would like to see the Tar Heels guard anybody, 15-20 feet from the hoop.
As well they should, lots of SLK tony baronies and lucy bag of donuts over their, they should lop them off while they can to save their culture.
njrebear Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Goldman Sachs likely to cut about 1,500 jobs: report
In addition to misleading DOM because of relisting, there was also that hidden practice during the boom of financing by the seller or “cash back to the buyer” which had the effect of inflating the recorded sales price, and this is probably impossible to detect.
Nobody is going to personally end the practice of relisitng. Just because a house has been on the market for a long timne does not mean it is overpriced. Some houses are listed for a long time becuase they go under contract, but the deal falls through for whatever reason.
What difference does it make how long a house has been listed for? Do you care how long the socks you buy at Target have been on the shelf for? Do you care how long the book you buy at Barnes & Noble has been on the shelf for? Do you care how long the gas you buy has been in the pump for? NO!
Jim, can you come up with any comparable examples that cost a half million? Socks and books don’t work.
Besides, I like when my B&N books smell like expresso and I find coffee splatters in there.
Feels like humanity.
What difference does it make how long a house has been listed for?
Great question, let’s ask the NAR.
BC (275)-
Other than Hansbrough, we don’t guard anybody, anywhere on the court.
Pat (280)-
How long has Bear Stearns been offering that CDO of subprime 2nd mortgages, priced at par?
Some things I’d like to know:
If there are other offers (in writing)
What offer contains as far as contingencies
(will it be financed, will they have to sell house first, etc)
Price of offer.
What other offers were submitted and declined…
What offers were accepted and subsequently fell apart and why…
What the inspections, if any, revealed. (disclosure!)
Any physical changes made since seller’s purchase that required permits and were permits issued and permit #’s…
Any changes made to structure footprint, (additions), minor or major outside changes (pools, cabanas, driveway paved, carport added, retaining wall with drainage, pond, etc) and license # of contractor, warranty time left (if any) and permit #’s…
Any changes to property from previous seller with regards to survey.
I could go on…
“What difference does it make how long a house has been listed for?”
None. What difference does it make that my friend is holding JNPR at $92.
BTW-
I have all this info for my house. I would give it up if I wanted to sell.
And if an offer came in and I didn’t like it, because I thought it was too low, well then…I wouldn’t have to ACCEPT IT.
And as far as inspections, if buyer A does inspections and finds X wrong with my house, and I refuse to fix and put back on market, why WOULDN’T I want to disclose this to buyer B? Legally, it’s good practice, and by disclosing, I give the 2nd deal a better chance of closing as there will be NO “surprise” at the 2nd inspection…
I don’t think sellers should be required to disclose DOM. It is nobody’s God-given right to know how long a person has been trying to sell their home. However, the seller should not be deceptive about it if they do choose to disclose it.
279
If DOM doesn’t matter, then why is relisting used as a marketing tool?
Could someone kindly give me the dirt on MLS# 813332?
It was just listed, and I’d like to know how much the sellers had paid for it.
Thanks in advance!
Ann [288],
If DOM doesn’t matter, then why is relisting used as a marketing tool?
Great question Ann, let’s ask the NAR.
Jim / Waters,
If DOM doesn’t matter why manipulate it?
And how can you come up with an accurate “months to clear inventory” if the number is skewed?
Rich
I don’t think it’s that DOM doesn’t matter, just that consumers don’t have the inherent right to know it. Just because they want information doesn’t mean they should have the right to it.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think as long as we have an accurate current inventory number, and as long as you know the number of sales per month of the past few months, then you’ll know the “months to clear inventory”.
kettle – the need for funding really would depend on the scope.
There is no point complaining about the fact that the NAR does nothing to protect the consumer when that is not their mandate (point taken about sellers coming next on the list Clot).
There have been people here saying that they have tried to complain about individual realtors and have been brushed off. Lots of people who aren’t aware of the actual scope of the realtor relationship, aren’t aware of the legal limitations of the contract, aren’t awar of common dubious actions.
At the very least a consumer group could list common issues online to be sure the buyer IS aware. Tally complaints about certain realtors and assist in getting action from Realtor boards and local government when their track record on ethics is abysmal. Act to speak for consumers with the media. Increase public awareness.
Regular donations and a volunteer or two would be fine to start, no need for a big budget, that just encourages waste.
For business I spent some time with people from the Funeral Consumers Alliance. They face some similar issues – expensive infrequent, irregular and emotional purchases that allow the “experts” to manipulate the situation and frequently adversely control the consumer. The funeral industry is also self regulated and populated with well-off lobby groups and wealthy industries. There is a limit to what the consumer group can do, but they do inform consumers, provide an umbrella for action, lobby and challange industry protectionist legislation as it pops up in state government. A very important function.
No use complaining about the Real Estate industry and not doing anything to redress it.
waters,
I stand corrected on the “months to clear inventory”.
But back to the first point, then why is the DOM listed? Doesn’t the consumer deserve the truth?
Grim finally got to see the Nightline spot excellent job. Nothing like shedding some light on a duplicitous problem.
279 Jim
“What difference does it make how long a house has been listed for?”
If that’s true, then please explain why it’s so important for these people to lie about it.
Waters – consumers WANT to know. And assuming that sellers and agents actually want to sell houses, perhaps they ought to do something to meet their customer base.
Just like people WANT to know what their clothes are made of, WANT to know what preservatives are in their breakfast cereal and WANT to know the contraindications of their current medication.
Non of the above are God given rights. They are legal requirements that came about because consumers wanted and felt they needed to know.
292 waters
I agree that there is no “right to know”. But there is a common law “right not to be lied to in a commercial transaction” that will be backed up by the full force of the courts.
Separately, knowing the average transaction velocity (which is what is calculable based on months of inventory) doesn’t cut it. I want to know what sets apart the house I’m interested in from other houses, so knowing average velocity is worthless.
In short, either don’t advertise the DOM of a house, or advertise it truthfully.
Waters,
Actually, I was thinking about the national and state NAR press releases with the AVG DOM (along with advertised DOM realtors use in their ads).
These numbers are skewed.
False data and false advertising.
That is why the consumer has a right to the actual DOM.
Rich
The “Average days on market” of sold homes is routinely advertised by real estate agents.
1) Number of homes sold
2) Average price of homes sold
3) Average days on market of homes sold
If I pull up a statistical report for Paramus on NJMLS, I get the following number for January sales:
Number of homes sold: 7
Average Days on Market: 156.43
I might be inclined to advertise that if I was a real estate agent.
What would you say if I told you the real number was closer to:
Number of homes sold: 7
Average Days on Market: 411.14
Is advertising the first number misleading, or isn’t it?
Goldman:
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200802211506DOWJONESDJONLINE001036_FORTUNE5.htm
relisting is also used to conceal price cuts. again, no buyer presently has a right to know when a seller has cut his price, but when realtors advertize that homes are selling for 98% of asking price on average, this is blatantly misleading because it is not based on the original asking prices.
I have yet to hear an argument that justifies the practice of relisting per se. All of the arguments in favor of the practice seem to center on the buyer’s obligation to do due diligence. This does not address the issue of whether relisting is itself ethical or lawful.
Nobody is “lying.” Re-listing is important so that the house has maximum expsoure. The newer the listing, the more traffic the house gets.
why does a new listing get more traffic? why does a stale listing get less? why do you want to manipulate people into believing that a listing is new when it isn’t?
300
is there something wrong with paramus? why does it take so long to really sell houses there?
i was actually looking to purchase there since the taxes are so low…
thanks.
Re-listing the house does not affect it’s value so it is not deceptive. What is deceptive is painting over water damage or placing furniture on top of scratched hardwood floors. As a buyer, I could not acre less what the DOM is. I am more concerned as to whether the house has any structural problems or anything else major.
# 305
Try to get out of your driveway on a Saturday.
“Re-listing is important so that the house has maximum expsoure.”
How about a revolutionary idea? To get maximum exposure, slash the damn price. Stop offering at limit prices, hit the bid, go to the market. Stop playing with yourself and sell.
#306
Where in the definition of lying does it say it must affect the value of an asset to be a lie?
Maybe you do not consider DOM to be important, but obviously many people do. Otherwise, how do you explain your own assertion that new listings get more traffic?
Great more wackos visiting.
“Great more wackos visiting.”
lost [310],
I sure do miss BIA and Listen.
Bob,
BIA?
#300 – It is also misleading to potential sellers. Forking over 6% of the money they receive for their home, I would assume they would like an accurate picture of the selling environment and what they can expect from it going in.
303 jim
Of course they’re lying. It’s the very definition of lying. When you say “Re-listing is important so that the house has maximum expsoure”, you’re not disputing that it’s a lie, you’re merely quibbling over whether they have a good reason to lie.
Bob,
BIA?
lost [312],
Classic, the upside down chart and the Career Builder monkeys.
To me, the most important thing DOM reveals is the mindset of the seller. houses that are fairly priced sell quickly, even now. A seller whose home has been sitting on the market for a year or more (and there are plenty out there) is clearly unreasonable.
Do I want to waste my time trying to educate this person about the current reality of the market? Not if there are other options— and there are plenty of those right now. So as a buyer, I am going to approach these perpetual sellers last.
I don’t think I am the only person who feels this way, which is why houses with high DOM get so few lookers.
307 olivia
do you live or have you lived in paramus?
aren’t there pockets of paramus that don’t have as bad of a traffic congestion problem?
can’t ignore the fact that paying 50% less in taxes could potentially purchase 10% more house
“Re-listing the house does not affect it’s value so it is not deceptive.”
Jim, you’re not actually interested in the truth. You’re interested in papering over your own fraudulent practices. You are the prototype of the person who will wind up on the losing end of a nasty lawsuit.
Thanks Bob.
As a potential (and prime) buyer this year, in a year where qualified buyers are few and far between, and as you are obviously a Realtor, could you please post your name and the office you work out of so I can be sure not to utilize your services.
I prefer my representatives to believe I am worth telling the truth to and that they value my money as much as I do.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Price of the asset is irrelevant, were talking about the disclosure of material information. The listing agent is not the arbiter of what constitutes materially important information.
Case in point.
The “Going-out-of-business-sale” Scam
For those who aren’t familiar, the scam goes like this. A store advertises that they are going out of business, and clearing out inventory, when they are not. The tactic manipulates both the buyer’s sense of urgency, “I better buy it quick, it won’t be here tomorrow” as well as the buyer’s sense of value, “It must be a good deal, they are clearing out the inventory.”
This isn’t a problem, right? Because the buyer would have paid that price under any other circumstances.. right?
Unfortunately, wrong. The seller manipulated material information in order to get the buyer to enter into a transaction they may not have entered under other circumstances. They misrepresented their financial situation in order to manipulate the buyer.
Because of this scam, true “going out of business” sales now need to register with a number of different consumer protection groups (depending on your state).
now of course, no one is saying that MLS has to reveal DOM at all. But if they are going to advertize this information, it need to be accurate and there needs to be real consequences for those who intentionally manipulate it.
From the NJ Office of the AG:
Consumer Fraud Act
http://www.nj.gov/oag/ca/ocp/ocplaw.htm
56:8-2.8. “Going out of business sale”; time limits
It shall be an unlawful practice for any person to advertise merchandise for sale as a “going out of business sale” or in terms substantially similar to “going out of business sale” for a period in excess of 90 days or to advertise more than one such sale in 360 days. The 360-day period shall commence on the first day of such sale. For any person in violation of this act, each day in violation shall constitute an additional, separate and distinct violation.
#307 jlx
I have a co-worker who grew up there; her parents still live there and she frequently drops the kids off. She complains about the traffic and tells me how sometimes people looking for shortcuts from 17 block her parents’ driveway. She’s grateful for the blue laws since it gives her family a respite from the insanity!
I suppose there are some areas shoppers never tread, but I’m not familiar with the town aside from the shopping.
I don’t see how people can defend re-listing. Nor do I see how selling a car is remotely in the same ballpark as selling a house. It is not even a decent analogy, given by a man that is not even a decent human being.
Free forum to educate Staten Islanders on foreclosure
from the Staten Island Advance
http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/02/free_forum_to_educate_staten_i.html
what is really shocking to me is the degree to which real estate agents apparently believe that there is nothing wrong with intentionally misleading the public with things like DOM stats. Obviously I knew this practice was widespread, but I always thought it was done with a wink and a nudge. I never would have imagined that people in this profession actually believed there was nothing wrong with this and would defend it. These people not only lack professional scruples, they don’t even have a basic understanding of right and wrong.
I have a question about the foreclosures listed on the Bergen County sheriff’s website…. How do I buy one of them? Do I go to an auction and buy or is the auction merely for the bank to take back the house? What do they sell for, market value, or the loan balance?
Thanks!
I am not a Realtor, FYI. Funny how anyone who defends the practice is automatically labeled as a realtor.
Here is a hypthtical:
What if a house has been listed for 40 days and gets an offer. The house then goes under contract, but 25 days later, the deal falls through because the buyer could not get financing. Should the realtor have the right to re-list the house to set the DOM to zero, or should the DOM be required to remain the same and be lsited at 65? How would resetting the DOM be deceptive in this case?
#329 – Then that is even sadder. A profit motive I can understand; rank stupidity and working against your own interest is just dumb.
But relisitng has worked in my interest. My realtor did it when I sold a number of years ago and, as a result, I got a full price offer. Had we not relisted, I don’t think I would have gotten as much.
Question for the board.
Can buyers be sued by a listing agency for approaching sellers directly after a listing has expired? How about if the listing is active?
I think that this is unethical. However the seller has a contract with the agency, not the buyer.
Jim [332],
Kudos to you for getting full price but never think the realtor relisted with your best interests at heart.
d2b,
I think the seller is the one who would get sued in that situation, not the buyer. But don’t take that as advice and go out and buy an expired listing. Speask to a RE attorney.
Jim – You are just proving your own stupidity.
A little while back you said:
“Re-listing the house does not affect it’s value so it is not deceptive.”
NOW you say:
“Had we not relisted, I don’t think I would have gotten as much.”
Make your mind up, does it affect value or not? And if yes, then you are supporting fraud used to extort money out of a buyer. If no, why bother? Can’t have it both ways.
Now fast forward. You want to sell. Your selling agent tells you that houses sell on average after 30 days on market. Even more, he points to his own statistics of 15 days on market to demonstrate how effective a marketer he is. You organize your life, job, perhaps a move and new housing based on this information, you also follow his pricing recommendations based on it. Couple of months go by, now you start to get stressed, another couple of months, now you have to drop your price to chase the market down. In the meantime, either you moved for that new job and are carrying two mortgages/or rent or have had to turn down the new opportunity or some other major issue arises. Your life is on hold.
Turns out that actual average days on market is 200 and your agents average is worse, 300. But you didn’t know because the numbers were fudged. You lost money and a year of your life. How does that help you.
You don’t even have to be a buyer to get screwed in this scenario. If you can’t see that, then you are a moron. Sorry.
“Jim Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 6:19 pm
But relisitng has worked in my interest. My realtor did it when I sold a number of years ago and, as a result, I got a full price offer. Had we not relisted, I don’t think I would have gotten as much.”
Exactly. By causing the buyer to believe something that wasn’t true, you got more money out of the buyer’s pocket.
You and your realtor defrauded that buyer.
If you did that today, in a falling market, you’d get nailed for fraud and lose your shirt.
“now of course, no one is saying that MLS has to reveal DOM at all. But if they are going to advertize this information, it need to be accurate and there needs to be real consequences for those who intentionally manipulate it.”
Agreed. I’m not defending lying. Stating false information is unethical. But I don’t think an educated buyer should be swayed by the stat to begin with. It’s hard for me to get worked up when someone manipulates what I will consider a meaningless stat when I go to purchase a home.
As for those (not you, skep-tic) arguing that consumers should have a right to the information, I disagree. DOM is information about the seller more than information about the house. Whether it’s been on the market for one day or 100, it’s the same house. What you’re trying to find out by looking at DOM is how desperate the seller is, and in my opinion that is none of our business. As a buyer, it would also give me an advantage if I knew how much cash the seller had in the bank, or whether his cars are paid off. But that’s none of my business.
“A little while back you said:
“Re-listing the house does not affect it’s value so it is not deceptive.”
NOW you say:
“Had we not relisted, I don’t think I would have gotten as much.”
Make your mind up, does it affect value or not? ”
I just thought I’d repeat that. Why argue with you, Jim, when you argue better with yourself? No point in disputing someone whose position changes every three minutes.
BTW, there’s a tremendous amount of vitriol and vigor on this board today, I’m very proud of all of you! The time is growing nearer to fasten the bayonets. Remember, ride to the sound of the Thunder!
333 d2b
Why on g*d’s green earth would you think that was unethical on the part of the buyer?
gary – Your job is not to cheerlead. It is to spew. Period.
I can’t deal with you all chipper and everything. It just isn’t natural.
Oh BTW Quailbrook.
Someone (jmacdaddio?) was looking there or something. I got an e-mail today from someone who lives in Quailbrook East asking if I knew anyone looking in the area (hasn’t listed his house yet, is trading up). Long story why he contacted me.
Don’t know the guy, don’t know anything about his house, but did the Quailbrook searcher want his info? Might be a good opportunity to get in without dealing with the market.
Give me a heads up whoever you were.
Gary go have another vodka. :)
What happens to the inspection report conducted by a buyer if the contract falls through. Does the seller make the copy of the report available to future potential buyers? Any regulations regarding that?
lisoosh and lostinny,
Sorry…. what the h*ll was I thinking?
Dear sellers, f*ck you. Ok, I’m back.
“gary – Your job is not to cheerlead. It is to spew. Period.
I can’t deal with you all chipper and everything. It just isn’t natural.”
lost,
He has been chipper twice, over the last 18 years. Any correlation with the Super Bowl winners.
Gary, good keep it that way. God damned good moods! What do you think this is? Something to celebrate? You’ll give people the idea the market has hit the bottom. Now cut that out!
Bob, I think it had to do with Clot’s ball gag post earlier.
BC Bob,
Now it’s the Mets’ turn. I won’t even mention the Knicks, the mere thought gives me the willies.
Can someone provide the history of MLS 2463602? Also, any info on Lincoln Park would be greatly appreciated. I’m particularly interested in their schools. Thanks in advance.
that’s odd, I don’t see my last post…
I don’t need to argue because houses will continue to be relisted regardless of whether or not you approve of it.
“What happens to the inspection report conducted by a buyer if the contract falls through. Does the seller make the copy of the report available to future potential buyers? Any regulations regarding that?”
Each buyer is responsible for getting their own inspection.
reinvestor101 Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 1:28 pm
If I like the house, why would I care about how long its been on the market? All things being equal, if there’s no problem with the house, I will buy if I am inclined without regard to whether it’s been on the market for one day or one year.
Fantastic. Glad you feel that way. But me – i’d like to know as much as possible. I would like to be an informed buyer.
So you go ahead not caring – but me, i’d like the most up-to-date and factually correct information.
“I don’t need to argue because houses will continue to be relisted regardless of whether or not you approve of it.”
Until someone gets sued.
reinvestor101 Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 1:49 pm
The clamoring for this DOM and relisting information comes from what I refer to as the vulture segment of the buyer market. These people are looking to swoop down on unsuspecting sellers to take advantage of them. They figure the more DOM, the more desperate the seller. There’s no other earthly reason to know the DOM other than that. There definitely needs to be some protections put in place to protect unsuspecting sellers from this sort of abuse.
The single dumbest paragraph I have ever read on this blog.
“unsuspecting sellers” – is that an actual phrase? If you are selling a house, you are informed on what’s going on.
If you NEED to sell your house, you lower the price until it moves. If you WANT to sell your house (cash out, downsize, etc) then there’s no urgency, and you shouldn’t care if the house was on the market for 100 days or 300.
It’s that simple, really.
I can’t wait until a realtor gets sued for relisting.
If DOM means so little that zero DOM is the same as 250, then get it out of the system entirely.
Maybe sellers will even forget how long their houses have been on the market!
We’ll just have to watch the moon and the seasons pass to keep track.
so once you move the onus to homeowners, switching agents, you’ll go after them too? Or is a zillow approach better than gsmls?
soosh (293)-
Actually, protecting the public IS mandate #1 of the RE statutes of every state in the country. Many of the practices NAR turns a blind eye to may, indeed, be blatantly illegal (such as the re-listing thingy discussed here today…which could constitute a fraud).
For that reason, I’ve always advised those who are aggrieved by the practices of certain agents to go straight to an attorney and to the courts, if warranted. Calling an agent’s broker, or reporting misdeeds to the local Realtor board is like talking to a wall.
#178 reinvestor: as well as a bunch of other extreme liberal initiatives.
Like the real estate bail out you have been crying for? What a cry baby and hyprocrite
#203 resocalledinvestor: will buy if I am inclined without regard to whether it’s been on the market for one day or one year.
Maybe that comment explains all of your real estate losses.
lisoosh 343,
Yep, I’m still looking at Quailbrook! I saw a nice 2BR condo at an open house on Sunday (which just so happens to have another OH scheduled for this coming Sunday) as well as a bunch yesterday. Clot helped out a lot with some info regarding the one on Sunday which so far is the lead horse. What kind of a place does your friend have? You can get me offline at jmacdaddio@gmail.com – thanks!
grim (300)-
When I post my twp’s sales, TRUE DOM and eventual selling price VS THE ORIGINAL LISTING PRICE on my blog, I receive 1-2 demands from listing agents to take down the “uncooked” numbers.
Making enemies has never been more fun. The best fun of all is when I’m up against one of those agents for a listing and I get an opportunity to put my competitor’s true statistics in the hands of my prospect.
There is no doubt in my mind that the current bid/ask spread between buyers and sellers is due, in part, to the promulgation of inaccurate sales/DOM info among sellers. I’ve just seen too many sellers’ jaws drop when I show them uncooked numbers…especially sellers who have seen their previous listings expire.
Relisting sounds about as defensible as these wonderful christmas toys you can buy from Irwin Mainway of Mainway Toys:
Pretty Peggy Ear-Piercing Set, Mr. Skin-Grafter, General Tron’s Secret Police Confession Kit, and Doggie Dentist.
Then there’s the always entertaining Bags o’ Glass, and Johnny Switchblade.
Completely harmless I tell you. And if you don’t think so, well that’s just your opinion.
Jim (303)-
“Re-listing is important so that the house has maximum expsoure. The newer the listing, the more traffic the house gets.”
How about a better price and upgraded marketing exposure?
Re-listing, from a marketing perspective, is just the same old sh*t, different day.
BC (311)-
I’m just about convinced that Listen has become Booyah Bob’s stooge and all-around lackey.
#266 nj: Goldman Sachs has already started the layoffs;it was very ugly there last week in their fixed income department.
For that reason, I’ve always advised those who are aggrieved by the practices of certain agents to go straight to an attorney and to the courts, if warranted. Calling an agent’s broker, or reporting misdeeds to the local Realtor board is like talking to a wall.
I’m hoping that Anne Milgram and the Office of the Attorney General can shed some light on the legality of this practice.
Although I have a sinking feeling that fraud is.. well.. fraud..
http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/ocp/ocplaw.pdf
56:8-2. Fraud, etc., in connection with sale or advertisement of merchandise or
real estate as unlawful practice
The act, use or employment by any person of any unconscionable commercial practice,
deception, fraud, false pretense, false promise, misrepresentation, or the knowing,
concealment, suppression, or omission of any material fact with intent that others rely upon
such concealment, suppression or omission, in connection with the sale or advertisement of
any merchandise or real estate, or with the subsequent performance of such person as
aforesaid, whether or not any person has in fact been misled, deceived or damaged thereby, is
declared to be an unlawful practice; provided, however, that nothing herein contained shall
apply to the owner or publisher of newspapers, magazines, publications or printed matter
wherein such advertisement appears, or to the owner or operator of a radio or television station
which disseminates such advertisement when the owner, publisher, or operator has no
knowledge of the intent, design or purpose of the advertiser.
skep (316)-
Exactly right. Or worse, the interminable DOM may indicate a seller who cannot accept less, because to accept less would trigger an request for a short sale from the lender.
Many of today’s sellers are on the market at crazy prices, because the only way they’ll be free and clear of their home is to find a sucker.
My guess is the argument is going to be whether MLS listings constitute advertisement or not.
A long time ago, before email and internet, I might be swayed to say no. However, with hotsheets, MLS, IDX, auto emails, and client emails, it’s clear that the MLS has become an integral part of advertising, and not only a method to foster broker cooperation.
#279 Jim Stop yourself!! Comparing books and socks to houses???
He is the relisting problem form my perspective. I have a right to know how long a house has been on the market and what was/is the asking price.
If I know a house has been on the market for 500k for 2 weeks, and then find out it had previously been on the market for 6 months at the same price, it would at least give me cause to pause, and think about it.
Its simple disclosure, or asking price transparency if you will.
lost (325)-
There you go! Straight to the ad hominem. Get busy!!!
Sink knife between ribs; turn slowly.
skep (327)-
Welcome to my nightmare.
Jim (329)-
You sound like a Realtor. You use the same tissue-thin, tortured logic in argument. I thought you were a Realtor, too.
And I’m a Realtor.
370 grim
specifically mentions real estate. Who knew!
374
Sorry Clot. Should I have buttered that up some?
Jim (330)-
MLS has two DOM metrics:
1) DOM- gross days-on-market
2) ADOM- actual days-on-market. A property that goes pending, falls through and comes available again has a lower ADOM than DOM, as the days spent under contract are not counted against the listing.
In addition, a house that falls through and is marked active again shows up in the daily hotsheets, which is a nice way to spotlight the home to agents who may have a buyer.
grim
“My guess is the argument is going to be whether MLS listings constitute advertisement or not.”
No – the word “or” is operative there: “in connection with the sale OR advertisement of any merchandise or real estate”
This is actually a very favorable statute for anyone bringing a suit. Note that the element of intent is not necessary to prove fraud except where the fraud is that of concealment, suppression or ommission of a material fact (i.e., intent is not a necessary element where there is an act of misrepresentation, such as claiming a house has been on the market for 10 days when it has been on for 400), nor is it necessary to prove reliance on the part of the victim, nor even damages (“whether or not any person has in fact been misled, deceived or damaged thereby”)!
dinra (345)-
An inspection report is the personal property of the person who ordered it, the buyer. A good RE attorney and buyer agent should never give a copy of the entire report to a seller, for just the reason you mentioned in #345.
However, it’s amazing how many times a lazy lawyer or agent will mark up an entire report, stick it in the fax and send it to the other side.
Once the seller has that report in hand, it becomes his “pre-inspection” to hand to the next buyer thru the door.
lost (348)-
“Gary, good keep it that way. God damned good moods! What do you think this is?”
Yep, I’m pretty sure I met you at The Vault.
njp,
Help me understand the following:
whether or not any person has in fact been misled, deceived or damaged thereby, is declared to be an unlawful practice;
Does this mean a misleading practice in conjunction with the sale or real estate can be considered fraudulent without a victim coming forward?
If so, how would a statute like this be enforced?
gary (350)-
“I won’t even mention the Knicks…”
The NBA’s version of waterboarding.
Realtors, a Q –
You show a prospective buyer a nice place that they like. Me, the buyer asks, ‘what did the current owners pay for the house, and when?’
Do you answer that?
patient (356)-
“Until someone gets sued.”
It’s all fun…until someone puts an eye out.
What someone has paid for a place is one thing….but take my place….5 years in….and some major renovations later….I aint selling it for what I paid for it — the buyer can go find a fixer upper and do the work themselves….they are out there!
Bath (385)-
I’ll answer that question, then ask one of my own:
“Would you prefer to look at homes in bad areas that do not appreciate in value?”
The price a seller paid for his home is utterly irrelevant in determining current value.
Clot,
We are keeping that in the past.
Clotpoll [384],
Or, the Knicks are the NBA’s version of a housing crash.
jmacdaddio – Full disclosure. This is merely some member of a forum that I am also a member of who knows that I live in Franklin and have a passing interest in RE, not a friend. I know nothing about his home or any pertinent details. That said, and with the warning to make all due dilegence, I will try to connect you, because you never know, you might get lucky.
Clot – the bummer is that people have to go to the expense and headache of hiring a lawyer to get some kind of redress. Of course, I suppose that is the whole raison d’etre behind self regulation.
Grim – that sure sounds like relisting is fraud to me.
I would think the MLS is advertising – realtors are advertising their listings to other agents.
Jim – You are SO a Realtor. And obviously not a particularly honest one either.
grim (369)-
Depends on how much money NJAR has jammed in her pocket over the years. Has she ever run for elective office?
Grim,
I watched the Nightline piece. I’m really happy for you! You really made a major league dent in this madness and gave a voice to some of us who would’ve been lost otherwise in expressing our feelings in any kind of coherent and articulate manner.
Yep, I’m pretty sure I met you at The Vault.
All this talk of the Vault lately. I had to share my story… I was there when a out of towner who heard of the place said he wanted to go there. So my now wife and our friends all go because of this guys suggestion w/out knowing what we were getting into. Two of our girlfriends were so nervous when inside they didn’t know what to do with themselves. They just stood their giggling and eating popcorn at the bar. I told “You sure you want to eat that? You don’t know where those hands have been.”
grim (372)-
I think the IDX component takes listings into the realm of advertisement. The whole purpose of IDX is to expose listings to the public in multiple venues, not just a single proprietary location (as in the old days).
Great article.
I have to agree, that the majority of realtors are viewed as carpet salesmen. They will say anything, and do almost anything to make a sale. They are so deeply rooted in deception that they come to believe their own propaganda and lies.
When you lie on a daily basis, it becomes ingrained in your mind, after a period of time, it seems natural. I am never amazed when I hear a realtor speak or read a piece written by a realtor – it is all crap. The nar’s own propaganda manual, that so-called magazine is full of nothing but self-centric, self-serving garbage.
Their chief economist is so biased, and usually off by 2% or 3% is his data, I always preface nar data with a disclaimer.
The guy is just part of the larger problem over there.
Even in the face of the worst housing recession in our nation, they print and state things that are outrageous, silly in fact. Then they all pat themselves on the back, looking for that affirmation they so badly crave. Good boy…sit, sit, ok roll over. Here’s a bisquet. : )
The few decent realtors out there get a bad name because of these shysters. In my 6 years of dealing with realtors I have found that most have no idea of even basic macroeconomic principles. They have no understanding of how the broader U.S. economy affects housing – it’s a joke.
What about accountability? Ethics?
LOL. The insiders joke. realtors are almost never held responsible for their actions of deception, and outright lies.
In my 6 years in the real estate profession, I find that 1 out 3 listings are false, containing false or misleading information. How many listings do you see without photos? Or without disclosures?
Incorrect square footage? False claims about the area? So, on and so on.
It just all adds up to their seedy, low-life image – which they themselves have created and continue to perpetuate.
Until I started in the profession, I never realized how greedy, and desperate the majority of these sad individuals are.
If enough of the public and upstanding professionals keep calling them out and demand they be held accountable, then maybe one day the title of realtor can actually mean something other than being just another carpet salesmen.
Matter of fact, the public interface of MLS cannot be construed as anything but advertising. It exists for no other reason than exposing the entire listing database to the public.
Can anyone here tell me if there is an
” acceptable loss percentage”
that banks are typically willing to allow
when conducting a short sale?
Thanks.
soosh (391)-
“..the bummer is that people have to go to the expense and headache of hiring a lawyer to get some kind of redress. Of course, I suppose that is the whole raison d’etre behind self regulation.”
Better to lawyer up against a crummy Realtor than the pay the gubmint billions to overregulate the RE industry into paralysis. Plus, I have no doubt we’d immediately co-opt the regulators, should that ever come to pass.
Either way, the public is schtupped. You only get to choose the way in which the schtupping is administered.
Hard (394)-
“Two of our girlfriends were so nervous when inside they didn’t know what to do with themselves.”
Imagine how nervous you and your pal would’ve been if your girlfriends HAD known what to do with themselves.
JG (396)-
Have a drink and relax. You and me are way outnumbered on this one. The best you can do is do right by those you touch. The industry lost its way years ago, and even the entire collapse of the market might not be enough to burn the dead wood out of the industry so things can start fresh at some point in the future.
cessation of angst (398)-
If a short sale might cost one penny less than actually having to foreclose, a lender may be all ears these days.
Good lenders only look to foreclose when all other options have been exhausted.
Thanks Clot –
by the way , it was great to meet
you the other night at the Grasshopper.
383 grim
You do need a victim to come forward to enforce the statute, but in so doing they do not need to prove reliance or damages as elements of their case.
(disclaimer: I’m admitted in NY, not NJ).
Clot (402)
I guess the next logical question would be
what does it cost a bank to foreclose?
Leaving missed mortgage payments and back taxes aside , what other costs does a bank face during foreclosure?
Typical legal fees , etc.
Any idea what these services can run?
Thanks.
404 Patient
Wouldn’t this open a can of worms where anyone could claim they were misled? Don’t get me wrong I think there are a lot of shady realtors out there but to win a case against them creates a statute where the buyer can point a finger any time. Doesn’t it?
Here some nice news 60k reduction on a 349 house in my area along with some 10 & 20s here & there.The forclosure I had my eye on is back on the market bank lost the deal.When I can buy it cash I’ll make my move.Its really getting interesting up here (Vernon NJ Sussex ).It will make its way down to the inner burbs just give it time.
Grim by the way saw you last night great job, go get’m!
On the relisting thing if you know the town it isn’t a problem.These fools try that by me I know.(I keep a close watch on the listing in my town).But for people moving to a new area its fraud, & its a dam shame that they can get away with it.But not for long.Thay guy Niece is a slime ball lets lock him in a room with Gary.
Ryan Howard does not subscribe to the notion that real incomes are not rising.
406
They can only point a finger where there is intentional misrepresentation in a commercial transaction. If they aren’t damaged, they can still obtain an injunction against the behavior, even if they don’t recover financial damages.
“I’m hoping that Anne Milgram and the Office of the Attorney General can shed some light on the legality of this practice.”
I don’t have any faith in the NJ attorney gneral’s office. What ever happened to the last attorney general anyway? Oh, that’s right, she had to resign after she fixed her boyfriend’s ticket when he got pulled over in Fairview. And these are the people you rley on to “fix” problems???
serenity (405)-
Thanks, and likewise. It’s always nice to be met.
As far as cost to a lender to foreclose? The sky’s the limit.
Quick rule of thumb is that a foreclosure is an immediate 50-70K gut shot to the lender. The lender not only has to take care of the past deficiencies, but also the current and future expenses of becoming the home’s new owner. On top of that, the lender has to maintain the home, including inevitable repairs (many people trash their home when it gets foreclosed), prep the home for sale again, pay people like me to pay the day-to-day bills and pay my fee when I sell it.
One horrible and overlooked part of the process is re-obtaining marketable title. The foreclosing lender comes out of the sheriff sale with only a sheriff deed, which is the worst instrument of ownership ever devised (only rivaled in uselessness by a quitclaim deed). The lender must go through the process of obtaining a proper deed with covenants vs grantors, so that the home can be sold again with clear, reliable title.
Now, heap onto all the above the fact that lenders don’t want to do this stuff and have to hire outside people with expertise to get them done. You can then see why they really don’t want to foreclose.
Clot – funny, ha, ha … but do you really think that what the current owner paid is something you would withhold if asked?
I know where you want to go with your answer (or think you know what I’m getting at), but could you just answer it for me?
Am I, a prospective buyer, going to be pissing off the realtor by asking such a question?
Hypothetical Conversation:
Buyer: Hello, we would like to buy a 4 bedroom/2.5 bathroom house in Tenafly for under $800,000.
Realtor: Well, you are in luck because I have a 5 bedroom/3 bathroom house in Tenafly listed for $750,000.
Buyer: Great, let’s go see it.
Buyer (inside house): This is a really nice house. I LOVE the updated kitchen. How long has this house been on the market for?
Realtor: 287 days. Would you liek to make an offer on it?
Buyer: No, absolutely not. I can’t buy this house. It has been on the market too long. Please only show me houses that have been on the market for less than a month.
Why even ask the realtor what the owners paid? You do know how to use Zillow, right???
BC (408)-
I would pay money to hear the Phils’ argument in the arbitration case today.
“Mr. Arbitrator, he carries our team, he’s probably the best player in the league…but he’s overweight and his uniform doesn’t fit well.”
Bath (412)-
My answer is the same as before: I’d share that info, then ask my own special question.
I don’t withhold any information I have from a client. I will, however, comment on its relevance.
Jim – Yes. Except that Zillow doesn’t have that information for all houses.
Jim (413)-
That’s the best, most self-serving straw man argument I’ve ever seen here.
And, there have been some doozies (a few supplied by me, too).
Report: luxe market remains strong
Despite the wider market’s uncertainty, Manhattan’s high-end residential sales market continues to grow at a healthy pace.
http://ny.therealdeal.com/articles/9246
Try Property Shark then.
#370 (cough)law school(cough,cough)
:-)
sl
Glad you liked it Clot. LOL
And for full disclosure, I am not a realtor. I am a homeowner in Bergen County and I am looking to buy a second (distressed) property.
Are you people nuts? It’s Thursday and there’s like 400+ posts.
-R
I have been thinking of going to law school, but the thought of taking the Bar scares the heck out of me.
I thought about going to law school, but I figured going to the Bar was easier.
(424)-
…not nearly as much as the Bar may be frightened by the prospect of having to admit you.
“Change you can Xerox.”
–Hillary Clinton, February 21, 2008
“The Republicans ought to be happy that it was an adult woman.”
The Republicans ought to be happy that it was a woman, period!
In case anyone is interested, the NY Times ran this piece about a year ago about re-listing:
Turning Back the Clock to Sell a House
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/realestate/17wczo.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Jim – we all know you’re a realtor. I’m embarrassed for you.
I was considering Rahway for a while. You know, hip happening downtown, train station, etc. This listing is an obvious re-list:
MLS ID# 2491100
It’s a 3-BR townhouse which was on the market last fall. It’s back now as a “new” listing.
waters (338),
So then you agree, the ACTUAL DOM should be listed or removed altogether and not used on the MLS listing or within advertising.
Rich
422 Jim
Of course you’re a realtor. But you’re going to pretend that you’re a homeowner for a living? Or what is it that you pretend to do for a job?
As a new resident to NJ (with plenty on $’s in the bank having already sold my house in Toronto) and having been scoping out the NJ housing market for about 2 months now, I’ve learned that the first question to ask is “Is this a relisting”. As a consumer I view relisting as deceptive and will not look at any property that has been relisted.
I have never understood the bidding process for real estate and I dare say it needs to be revamped. Imagine if the stock market (or any other market) worked on hidden moving bid/ask prices as real estate currently does. It’s ridiculous. I was priced out of a unit in Hoboken about 15 years ago even though I had the highest bid (by $5,000) and a nearly perfect credit score with an offer of 25% down.
I think that the buyer needs to know what other bids exist – not only how many but what dollar values. Isn’t that in the best interest of both parties? I would like for someone to convince me how concealing competing bids is good for the seller (it’s certainly not good for the buyer).
On the DOM issue: to a potential buyer, DOM can be an important data point, just as historical bid/ask data can be for a purchaser of securities.
“The clamoring for this DOM and relisting information comes from what I refer to as the vulture segment of the buyer market. These people are looking to swoop down on unsuspecting sellers to take advantage of them. They figure the more DOM, the more desperate the seller. There’s no other earthly reason to know the DOM other than that. There definitely needs to be some protections put in place to protect unsuspecting sellers from this sort of abuse.”
1) What exactly is “an unsuspecting seller?” That made me guffaw. You’re an idiot.
2) “They figure the more DOM, the more desperate the seller.” Yes, and your point is…?
“What you’re trying to find out by looking at DOM is how desperate the seller is, and in my opinion that is none of our business. As a buyer, it would also give me an advantage if I knew how much cash the seller had in the bank, or whether his cars are paid off. But that’s none of my business.”
Umm, isn’t it?
Don’t sellers prefer cash deals to financed ones? Would you be more apt to sell to me if I’m pre-approved or not? Would you be more apt to sell to me if I’m putting 0% down vs. 50% down?
You’re deluding yourself.
Grim,
Cool your jets and go after NJAR to get all of these MLS’s we have in the state to merge as one MLS system. DOM is a function of how the MLS system is set up. Down here in Monmouth Co. they already solution this so your already jumping around for nothing. If the sellers would just get there prices in line with today’s market in 2008 they wouldn’t DOM 300 days. Put all your negative energy to something that will really help the consumer fix the problems, ONE MLS IN NJ not 8 or is it 9 each having there own rules and fees. And by the way go read the Secrete or something…
Put all your negative energy to something that will really help the consumer fix the problems, ONE MLS IN NJ not 8 or is it 9 each having there own rules and fees
This was a Day 1 project for me, it’s still in the works, my friend. But realize, few consumers would be helped, this would be a big benefit for agencies.
Just realize that the political issues here are tremendous.
Not all consumers are full of love for you. Granted I’m not full of hate. But I think you’re way off base here. If you don’t have the presence of mind to check out a home’s CDOM, there’s a problem. Our country is over-regulated enough already without more laws to make it all more muddled.
Oh, and I just bought a home that had a DOM of 45 days and a CDOM of around 250 days. I knew that going in, but I looked it up and I never felt defrauded because of it. It’s called educating myself. I don’t need laws to tell me how to do that. Too many buyers run from a place that’s been on the market for over three months. The fact is most people list high and come down if it doesn’t sell. A lot of people list before they’re “serious”, just to test the waters. These people shouldn’t have their places sitting out there for over 300 days on the market.
Those are my thoughts anyway. I know I won’t dissuade you and that’s okay, I respect the fact that you’re fighting for what you believe. I still think you’re dead wrong.
Since the date a house was built is on every MLS listing, I feel the DOM should be meaningless. Each house stands on it own merits and price of comps. People delude themselves into thinking DOM means something “significant” when, IF defect disclosures are truthful, DOM means nothing.
People whose $750,000 house ran up to $1.5 mil. during the Hey-Days, think they should get all that and more, and have ruined the market (with help from the media). But us guys in the $90,000 – $130,000 market are trying to price realistically, but the loan market for those “poor” buyers has dried up, so a house may be on the market for a long DOM for those reasons, and have nothing to do with what would be a great house in a not-tight market.
To speculate that a house is a “bad” house based on DOM is inappropriate stereotyping.