NJ Commercial RE Not Spared

From NorthJersey.com:

Commercial property foreclosures more than doubled in 2008

Foreclosures on commercial properties in New Jersey more than doubled in 2008 from the previous year, a further sign of the recession’s drag on the real estate, according to state data released today.

At the end of last year, 855 commercial properties across the state fell into foreclosure, compared with the 371 that filed in 2007, according to statistics provided by the New Jersey Judiciary.

Commercial foreclosures had been considered relatively rare. But as businesses’ revenues have declined in the downturn, so has their ability to pay rents, impacting landlords’ ability to repay mortgages. Bankruptcy lawyers have said lenders have been more aggressive during the credit crisis, apparently seeking to foreclose on properties as a way to raise cash quickly.

This entry was posted in Economics, Foreclosures, New Jersey Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

200 Responses to NJ Commercial RE Not Spared

  1. grim says:

    From the Daily Record:

    Investment blackout

    Last June, the New Jersey State Investment Council invested $178 million with Lehman Brothers. That may have seemed prudent at the time, but three months later, the once venerable firm went bankrupt, and the state lost $115 million of its investment.

    Some may shrug and say, “So be it.”

    After all, many individuals and institutions of late have seen their investments dwindle.

    State Sen. Joseph Pennacchio, R-Montville, is not one to shrug.

    Pennacchio wants more details about how and why the original investment was made.

    “The Lehman investment had huge risks, and there were obvious personal ties to the New Jersey Investment Council when this failed decision was made,” Pennacchio alleges. He has sought documents about the transaction through the state’s Open Public Records Act.

    Pennacchio recently got copies of three e-mails dating back to the same day last September. But other than the sender and receiver, everything else was blacked out with a magic marker. Not too helpful.

    “It is obvious that we are being stonewalled,” Pennacchio has said. “New Jersey’s citizens have a right to know why and how the Investment Council lost $115 million of $178 million invested in a short period of time.”

  2. grim says:

    From the Star Ledger:

    Corzine tells New Jersey there’s reason for optimism during State of State

    Gov. Jon Corzine opened today’s State of the State address in Trenton with words of encouragement for New Jerseyans disheartened by the sagging economy.

    Before a packed crowd in the Statehouse Assembly chambers, the governor began his 1:20 p.m. speech with a reminder that the state is doing better than much of the rest of the country.

    “We are a creative, ‘can-do’ people who, with fortitude and spirit, will work through today’s challenging times,” Corzine said.

    “Despite the economic tsunami that’s engulfing the nation, I believe that the character and fundamentals of our state are equal to any task we face,” he said. “We generate the highest incomes in the nation. We educate our children in schools that are the envy of others.

    We maintain a highly respected justice system. We provide a strong safety net for the most vulnerable.”

  3. Stu says:

    Then there’s the problem with all of the 50 million dollar investments the state made. Why 50 million? Anything over would have required immediate public disclosure. The band plays on.

  4. kettle1 says:

    Time for a chinese credit bubble?

    China to Tolerate More Bad Loans, Relax Credit Rules

    China will tolerate an increase in bad debt this year as it eases rules governing bank lending to revive the slowing economy, the nation’s banking regulator said. The China Banking Regulatory Commission will drop its target of reducing the balance and ratio of bad loans after five years of declines, and instead aim to prevent a “massive and rapid rebound” in soured debts, Chairman Liu Mingkang said in Beijing today. A transcript of his speech was obtained by Bloomberg News. Bank of China Ltd. and Industrial & Commercial Bank of China Ltd. fell in Hong Kong trading today. Looser requirements may fuel concerns about a surge in bad loans, four years after China finished a cleanup of its banking system that cost more than $500 billion.

    Lenders will likely face weaker asset quality, rising defaults and “significant” constraints on profits in 2009, Standard & Poor’s said Jan. 7. “What we’re concerned about is whether banks will, after government interference, boost lending without properly recognizing the risks,
    ( you mean like in the US?)


    *emphasis (bold) mine

  5. grim says:

    WSJ reporting that ING cutting 750 US jobs.

  6. Stu says:

    Market Consensus Before Announcement at 2pm…

    The U.S. Treasury monthly budget report showed that the deficit in November, inflated by TARP payments, totaled $164.4 billion. Now two months into the fiscal year, the year-to-date deficit is a whopping $401.6 billion. The Treasury’s budget is a mess, offering a clear illustration of the great troubles facing the economy. The past offers little guidance for the near term future other than showing the depth of current problems. The month of December typically shows a moderate surplus for the month. Over the past 10 years, the average surplus for the month of December has been $13.8 billion and $7.5 billion over the past 5 years. However, TARP and other issues are likely to turn December 2008 into a sharp deficit.

    Treasury Statement Consensus Forecast for December 08: -$83.0 billion
    Range: -$150.0 billion to -$26.0 billion.

  7. kettle1 says:

    health care crisis yeehaw

    Cobra takes big bite out of unemployment checks

    With unemployment hitting a 16-year high in December, measures such as federal subsidies to help jobless people afford coverage are all the more urgent, argues Families USA, a national advocacy organization for health-care consumers in Washington. Cobra is the acronym for a federal law enacted in 1986 that allows many laid-off workers and their dependents to remain on the employer’s group health plan for 18 months as long as they pay the full cost of coverage and a 2% administrative fee. The law was designed to keep people from falling into the ranks of the uninsured when they lose a job — especially if they have a preexisting condition that would make it hard for them to secure coverage on the individual market. But after a rapid rise in health-care costs this decade, the economics of continuing on Cobra are beyond the reach of many, according to a study released Friday from Families USA. The average monthly Cobra premium for family coverage, $1,069, consumes 84% of the average monthly unemployment check, which is $1,287, the study found.


  8. kettle1 says:

    more from #7

    In nine states — Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Delaware, Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, and West Virginia — average premiums for family coverage under Cobra equal or exceed total income from unemployment insurance, the study found.

  9. kettle1 says:


    hold off on that cxw stock

    Budget woes prompt states to rethink prison policy

    Their budgets in crisis, governors, legislators and prison officials across the nation are making or considering policy changes that will likely remove tens of thousands of offenders from prisons and parole supervision.

    In California, faced with a projected $42 billion deficit and prison overcrowding that has triggered a federal lawsuit, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger wants to eliminate parole for all offenders not convicted of violent or sex-related crimes, reducing the parole population by about 70,000. He also wants to divert more petty criminals to county jails and grant early release to more inmates – steps that could trim the prison population by 15,000 over the next 18 months. In Kentucky, where the inmate population had been soaring, even some murderers and other violent offenders are benefiting from a temporary cost-saving program that has granted early release to nearly 2,000 inmates.

  10. Sean says:

    Corzine should have taken his lead from the Germans not the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders.

    How is this for Financial Innovation?

    Germany to ban excessive borrowing


  11. John says:

    Chase To Spend $375 Million to Rebrand WaMu Branches

  12. Stu says:

    Which was more expensive, the purchase of WAMU or the rebranding?

  13. Stu says:

    The danger of keeping rates at zero

    The Fed seems to think inflation is no longer a problem. But inflation may just be in hibernation and low rates for a long period of time could awaken the beast.


  14. kettle1 says:

    how much can chase recover by ebaying all of the old wamu stuff?

  15. Nicholas says:

    Nicholas, home ownership isn’t for everyone. Maybe he should sell the house. I’m sure that would free up a bunch of cash, no? On a side note, if he’s been unemployed for the past year, did he think that it was a good idea to get his wife pregnant again?

    He will not be able to sell the house in this market. He lives in a rural community and there are zero sales per month where he lives. From the sound of it he was surprised by the pregnancy.

  16. Nicholas says:

    The house will be forclosed on, of that im 95% sure.

  17. Victorian says:

    Where is the O inauguration rally? Or is it scheduled for next week?

    Anybody know the volumes on this down move?

  18. Stu says:

    Federal budget deficit in first fiscal quarter is $485.2 billion, government says – more than all of last year. More soon.

  19. Stu says:

    Two trillion in one year. Not bad!

  20. ben says:

    “He will not be able to sell the house in this market. He lives in a rural community and there are zero sales per month where he lives. From the sound of it he was surprised by the pregnancy.”

    There’s no problem that the right price won’t solve. If he listed it for $1000, how fast do you think it would sell? How about $10,000? How about $100,000? Anyone can sell their house in under a week. They just won’t get the price they were hoping they would.

  21. John says:

    Long Ring Fingers May Point to Wealth in Traders, Study Says
    Email | Print | A A A

    By Elizabeth Lopatto

    Jan. 13 (Bloomberg) — A glance at a trader’s hand may reveal the size of his paycheck. The longer the ring finger is compared with the index finger, the bigger his pay is likely to be, a study of London traders found.

    The secret to prosperity may be contained in their digit ratio, which reflects the length of the index finger divided by the length of the ring finger, according to a study of 44 London traders in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Traders with a lower digit ratio made an average of 679,680 pounds (or about $1 million U.S.), compared with 61,320 pounds ($90,956 U.S.) by those with a higher ratio, the report said.

    Previous research has found that the digit ratio reflects how much testosterone an unborn baby was exposed to in the womb. Those exposed to high levels of the hormone are more sensitive as adults to testosterone that creates feelings of confidence and encourages risk-taking, said study author John Coates. Recognizing the physical characteristics of employees may help companies weigh their reaction to events, he said.

  22. John says:

    Sounds like he needs a book of matches adn some gas. Is he sure the baby is his?

  23. John says:

    [FNM] Fannie Mae policy allows renters to stay in foreclosed units

  24. grim says:

    #24 – I believe this is law in many states already. I know for a fact that in NJ, tenants can’t be evicted during a foreclosure.

  25. yikes says:

    Stu says:
    January 13, 2009 at 11:20 am
    I had a contractor drive up in a Mercedes. I immediately assumed his bid on the redo of my 3 bathrooms was way overpriced. Turned out it was. Of course, the friend I used sucked royally, but it was pretty cheap!

    I believe i mentioned this on another thread: Angie’s List is a great, great resource. There are tons of reviews for contractors. it’s helpful.


    * i am not affiliated with it, but my wife joined and so far, so good. it costs like $50 a year, but you can get a discount on retail me not so you can waive that.

  26. Stu says:


    I used them. There is often not a large enough sample size to make the reviews that valuable. There is also no way to determine if the reviews are legit or posted by the contractors themselves. I’ll stick with the BBB reports and intuition.

  27. yikes says:

    grim says:
    January 13, 2009 at 11:09 am
    From the WSJ:

    Pfizer plans to lay off up to 800 researchers and expects to cut 5% to 8% of its researchers in 2009.

    relative works at pfizer and supposedly, the big layoffs come at the end of next week or on monday the 26th.

    it could be really, really ugly. i know of one middle manager who has been – no kidding – starting up a side business out of fear that they’re a goner. apparently, managers are going to take a pounding more than field reps

  28. Victorian says:

    Stu (23) –

    Thanks! Looks like it is neither here nor there. Low volume move up and down.

  29. yikes says:

    interesting, Stu.

    it’s early, but we’re 3-for-3 so far.

  30. sas says:

    did some say subprime only?

    “Dispute Stalls an Ambitious Upper West Side Conversion”

  31. yikes says:

    A) Who’s got a road map for what the hell to do in hyperinflation? I didn’t get the memo.

    B) Googling has not been all that helpful in compiling information on what foods are best to stockpile for 6 months. is there some master list I am just not finding ?

    It will be nice to finally have a basement for storage.

  32. Stu says:


    Shoprite is currently having their can-can sale!

  33. sas says:

    “From the sound of it he was surprised by the pregnancy”

    i’ll tell you right now my friend, straight talk from a man who’s been all over the globe, been with many a women, and been married 5x…



  34. grim says:

    Breaking from the WSJ:

    * Citigroup is preparing to unveil a reorganization that will mark another step toward dismantling itself.

  35. Nicholas says:

    From: “todd2001@mchsi.com” todd2001@mchsi.com

    This is Todd loan firm, we offer loan to all interested persons all over the world. The amount ranges from $5,000 to $5,000,000.00USD. Our interest rate is 5% and our service and terms are affordable. Any interested person should apply via email:mrtodeastman@hotmail.com

    Phew, man oh man, if this guy didn’t come through when he did I would have been in serious trouble, glad I sent him all my pertinent financial information so that he could get that 5% loan set up.

    /sarcasm off

  36. sas says:

    remember my song?

    say goodbye to citi, say goodbye my baby..


  37. sas says:

    another interesing show on wbai.org
    99.5 FM

    nothing to do with housing, but still interesting.

    this guy Hugh Hamiliton usually has pretty good shows.


  38. Nicholas says:

    Breaking news:

    * The Capital One Vikings are no longer alowed to say “Whats in your wallet?” as it is seen to promote negative consumer behavior towards credit cards companies. Now they are prompted to say “Whats on your balance sheet?” and point their weapons at each other.

  39. sas says:

    it was a good show, until they broke away for Hiliary’s acceptance sppench.


  40. RemainCalmAllisWell says:


    They’re not Vikings. They’re Visigoths.


  41. Sybarite says:

    Fugitive money manager bails out of plane to fake death


    By Jane Sutton

    MIAMI (Reuters) – A pilot wanted on financial fraud charges parachuted out of his plane over Alabama and allowed the aircraft to crash in neighboring Florida in an apparent attempt to fake his death, sheriff’s investigators said on Monday.

    Authorities launched a manhunt for the pilot, who survived and checked into an Alabama hotel, and then fled, the Santa Rosa County, Florida, sheriff’s office said.

    The pilot, identified as Marcus Schrenker, 38, was the only person aboard the plane that took off for Florida on Sunday from Anderson, Indiana.

    Over Alabama, the pilot made a bogus emergency call, saying the plane’s windshield had imploded and he was bleeding profusely. He then put the plane on autopilot and parachuted out, investigators said.

    Military jets were scrambled to aid the plane, a Piper PA-46 Turbo Prop, and the military pilots noticed the Piper’s door was open. They followed the empty plane to northwest Florida, where it crashed on Sunday night near the city of Milton, in a swampy area within a few hundred yards of some houses, said Sgt. Scott Haines of Santa Rosa County Sheriff’s office.

    A man believed to be the pilot approached police near the Alabama city of Harpersville on Sunday night, wet up to the knees and seeking help. He told them he had been in a canoe accident, showed them a drivers license identifying him as Schrenker and was taken by police to a hotel, investigators said.

    By the time Alabama authorities learned about the plane crash, he had fled the hotel, Haines said.

    “After Schrenker paid for his room with cash, he put on a black toboggan cap and ran into the woods located next to the hotel,” he said.

    Insurance regulators in Indiana had charged Schrenker with misleading consumers and misappropriating hundreds of thousands of dollars, the Indianapolis Star newspaper reported. On December 31, investigators executed criminal search warrants for three wealth management businesses he owned, the newspaper said.

    (Editing by Mohammad Zargham)

  42. Outofstater says:

    #32 Yikes – Stockpiling food is different for everyone because everyone’s tastes are different. Have extra supplies of everything you use on a daily basis. Think about what you have for breakfast, lunch and dinner and then make substitutions – like Tang instead of orange juice, powdered milk instead of fresh. Buy a freezer and make double recipes for awhile and freeze the extra. Don’t forget comfort food and drinks – we have “emergency” supplies of coffee, tea, cocoa, wine, beer, bourbon and scotch.

  43. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Modern day version for USA will be the creditors are at the gates.

  44. #42 – Sybarite – Dealbreaker has some perfectly logical explanations for everything.

  45. Stu says:

    I actually have a food dehydrator but use it primarily to make the world’s greatest fruit roll ups.

  46. Sean says:

    re #45 Tosh saw that an hour ago and I am still laughing made my day, funny stuff.

  47. #47 – Sean – Dealbreaker has become a dedicated tabbed page for me in firefox (along with njrereport).
    They bring the LOL to the financopocalypse.

  48. Ben says:

    “Googling has not been all that helpful in compiling information on what foods are best to stockpile for 6 months. is there some master list I am just not finding ?”

    Rice, Pasta, Flour, Cornmeal, Polenta, Dry Bullion, Beans, Pickled Foods, Fruit Jam, Canned Tomatoes, Powdered Drinks, Coffee, Chocolate, Oil, Peanut Butter, Honey, Salt, Pepper, other seasonings.

    Put all your foods in the freezer for a couple of days to kill any bug eggs. Your seasonings too.

  49. kettle1 says:


    Oxygen, light and moisture are the primary spoiling agents of stored food. You can either vacuum pack food or get oxygen absorbers (google). you can get moisture absorbers. And if you store bulk item such as sugar , or grains, then consider using foil bags in food grade buckets.

    not an endorsement, but you might find this somewhat helpful


  50. make money says:

    Why did Bernanke cancel his congressional hearing today and ran to Switzerland to meet with the international central bankers?


    Ron Paul is smelling something.

  51. kettle1 says:

    the key is to store things that you would normally eat. The other thing is to not forget treats. During periods of high stress comfort foods can be very helpful in reducing stress.


  52. was_looking says:

    #49 – good tip, i was told you had to store all these items in the freezer to avoid bugs. If what you say is true, this could modify my plans for extra freezer storage in the basement.

  53. kettle1 says:

    S&P threatens to strip Spain of top AAA rating

    Standard & Poor’s has threatened to strip Spain of its coveted AAA rating as the country’s budget deficit explodes, offering the clearest warning to date that even wealthy states are running out of room to borrow


  54. kettle1 says:

    A spain implosion should be some good fireworks….

    BC bob, what do you think, does spain make it past june?

    from 52
    “Michael Klawitter, from Dresdner Kleinwort, said Spain was now crumbling on every front. “Tax revenue is collapsing. There is a banking crisis and a massive deterioration linked to housing.

    It is arguable that Spain has already let matters go past the point of no return,” he said. “We are going to see fresh talk about the sustainability of monetary union and it is going to get messy. Spain is the most pro-EMU of the big states so there has not been any backlash against EMU, but who knows what will happen,” he said. Ian Stannard, a currency strategist at BNP Paribas, said Spain needs to raise €70bn (£63bn) this year on the bond markets, both to roll over old debts and to pay for a fiscal rescue package worth 1pc of GDP. Europe’s bond supply will reach €765bn this year, up 15pc from 2008. It is far from clear whether the markets can absorb so much debt. Although Spain’s public debt is modest at under 40pc of GDP, this may not prevent a downgrade. “The economy is less resilient than any other AAA state. It is more dependent on real estate and tourism, and there is very high corporate debt. Household debt is close to levels in Britain and the US,” said Mr Fernandez.”

  55. kettle1 says:

    was looking,

    you dont have to put the items in the freezer, there are other methods. Vacuum packing is one. You can also use dry ice. google it. you can also use diatomaceaous earth.

  56. Essex says:

    Three places I would never borrow from Citi, Chase, or Wachovia…..all ‘brands’ are lower than dirt…and their practices suck….try PNC or Wells.

  57. John says:

    Only the lowest members of the jungle store food.

  58. Essex says:

    John my bet is you could live off your gut for weeks….

  59. Essex says:

    You can add Bank of America to the list of no go banks…they suck ass.

  60. John says:

    2-Year triple AAA muni just hit 1.56% – Ouch. No more new money there. Someone named Ben and Hank slammed the door.

  61. Essex says:

    In these troubled times just ask yourself….WWSD….What Would Stu Do?

  62. FT is reporting Citi will break itself up in two primary parts; commercial and IB….

  63. zieba says:


    I always wondered how much equity was drawn out during the bubble. 180K over four years if I understand correctly… Wow! That’s a lotta living!

  64. zieba says:


    Is the 50M school your referring to a part of Montclair State University?
    Has this meeting occurred? I’m interested as to the status of things.

  65. RemainCalmAllisWell says:

    Wachovia = Wells

  66. Stu says:

    Did I just hear something?

  67. Essex says:

    It was the dollar dropping.

  68. Essex says:

    66…damn I can’t keep up…OK…Wells?Wachovia..perhaps I would but really prefer credit unions or PNC.

  69. Essex says:

    63…two parts of Citi…Crap and Shite.

  70. CNBC now reporting Morgan Stanley Smith Barney a done dealio..

  71. Sean says:

    re #63 Tosh The titanic also split in half just before it sunk.

  72. still_looking says:

    72 Sean,

    Dammit… sprayed coffee all over my monitor and keyboard again.

    My god that’s funny!!!


  73. Essex says:

    Amero anyone???

  74. Stu says:


    It has nothing to do with the University. Estimated cost will be 35 million, but everything the BOE has ever done requires cost overruns usually in the 100% range. I was just being nice and conservative. Of course, the increase in Montclair’s operating budget will be huge after this school opens. School should hold 600 students. Expected increase in Montclair’s enrollment between this year and next year? Twenty. Do the math. At 12 years for 600 students, the cost per student drops all the way down to $7,000 per. And this does not include operating costs. As soon as people started calling for the postponement of the school, the Montclair BOE website has stopped bragging about it. Only way to find any information about it is to due a google search.


  75. Stu says:

    Good one Sean!

  76. #72 – And look at the super cool children’s slide that produced!

  77. yikes says:

    what happened to the dollar?

    great tips on storing food. ill be buying a freezer for the basement.

  78. comrade nom deplume says:

    [58] John,

    True, but that presumes that when you have none, you (as a top end predator) can go out and hunt for it from the lower-tier species.

    But the problem for the top end predator is this: while God did not really make all men equal, Colonel Colt did.

  79. comrade nom deplume says:

    [43] out

    Tang and scotch. Did I inadvertently send you the stockpile list that I made????

    Just found out that I should add vodka. I’m out.

    Note on emergency supplies (the stuff you wouldn’t eat unless there was one): Save the receipts, then before the food shelf lives expire, donate items to a food pantry for a charitable deduction. Be sure to get an acknowledgment.

  80. sas says:

    one of my favorite songs:
    someone poisoned me years ago, i use to listein to this song during chelation therapy.

  81. Shore Guy says:

    “ING cutting 750 US jobs”

    I hear they are changing their name too. It comes down to:


  82. comrade nom deplume says:

    [32] Yikes

    For you and the assembled masses who are curious about this, here is how I approached stockpiling.

    First, it isn’t about armageddon, but about having things you need and avoiding future price hikes—no one can raise prices on things you already own. In that sense, it is about investing.

    Second, it is about helping to manage the household. You don’t run out of things (for which you pay higher prices when you need to replace), and it imposes some order on your household procurement.

    Applying both of these concepts, note that I also plan to stockpile things I use regularly, not just food items.

    So here is my list (feel free to add your suggestions) (and do keep it clean)

    Things to stock up on–acquire at each sale opportunity, regardless of need Note that these should have indefinite shelf lives. Items with shelf lives should be limited to supplies for the life of the product.

    Razor blades***
    Toilet paper***
    Bandage supplies (band aids, gauze, pads, tape)
    Dental Floss
    Hard soaps
    feminine products
    Liquid hand soap

    General household:
    Incandescent bulbs***
    Cleaning chemicals
    Paper towels***
    Rechargeable batteries
    Laundry detergent
    Dish soap (handwash)
    Motor oil

    Red Wine
    Athletic socks**

    Things to stock up on until a one year supply is achieved (depending on shelf life)

    Food items:
    Tomato sauces**
    Canned foods***
    Canned soups***
    Coffee Beans***
    Bottled condiments
    White wine/beer
    brewing supplies

    Health items
    Vitamins and supplements
    OTC medicines**
    Hydrogen Peroxide

    Shaving cream
    Baby Care items

    Things to purchase in sufficient quantity to overcome short term shortages (items that do not have a long shelf life)

    Other baking supplies
    Frozen foods and juices***
    Baby formula
    Maple syrup

    Things to hold in emergency supply reserves (purchase if on sale and/or coupon available; do not purchase large amounts)

    Powdered Milk
    Dehydrated vegetables
    Other dehydrated meals
    Hard candy
    Canned meats (Spam)
    Freeze-dried coffee
    Powdered milk

  83. sas says:

    good post @ 83

  84. sas says:

    that a pretty big hit for that neck of the woods.

    “ING spokesman Dana Ripley says the company will notify workers this week. ING has about 1,100 workers in the Des Moines area”

  85. Sean says:

    re #83 – Nom without the compound, I would think that there are many many more imbiciles than you have bullets to defend you stash from.

  86. sas says:

    if Cumo was smart, he’d look into Ivy League endowments & donations.
    but hey, what do I know:)

    “Cuomo Probing People Who Defrauded Charities in Madoff Scandal”

  87. spam spam bacon spam says:


    That list is eery. I see things on there that you say have a limited shelf life that I have had for “a bit”.

    You guys need a farm.

    Tang? WTF is Tang?

    How about warm fresh goat milk…if you aim it up, you can squirt it right in your mouth.

    Eggs. If I was truly living off the land, I’d be meat free. But wow… would we be smelling like “sulfur”….

    I also have a Cat 1 stream running thru my property. You forgot water.

  88. spam spam bacon spam says:

    That’s not a “compound” list.

    Nom even explained that.

    A compound, armageddon-style, would have a COMPLETELY different focus.

    You would never see “napkins”, “shaving cream” or “brewing supplies”….

  89. kettle1 says:


    first you need to know who Nom is in real life, then you need to know where he lives and that he even has the stash….

    a stash is kinda like fight club…..

    first security by obscurity, second defend against force, with force.

    I doubt many people who are well prepared and have a sound stash brag about it to neighbors or keep a large neon sign on the house

  90. kettle1 says:


    thats the idea behind the compound, Some of the members may know how to raise goats or chickens, other know how to brew, others know how to shot or build….

    A small group of people who combined have a skill set that is beyond what a single person of family couple probably achieve

  91. Sean says:

    Kettle1 I said “imbiciles”, which I am defintely not. When it comes down to it within a week of food shortages there will be thousands if not tens of thousands out on the streets of NJ rioting and setting everything on fire. There is no escaping and not enough ammo.

    Here is a pic look at the imbicile rioting and look at the fire.


  92. kettle1 says:


    i disagree, you would definitely see “brewing supplies” and very possibly shaving supplies. Alcohol has many uses besides drinking, blasphemous i know, but true.

  93. jamil says:

    Meanwhile, NJ wants to hand out more money to illegals (in-state tuition, drivers licenses). What the heck has tolerance crap to do with illegal and criminal activity?

    (Washington Compost)

    “For years, mainstream Montgomery County has been generally accepting of illegal immigrants, and county leaders followed suit, pledging not to enforce immigration laws even as police agencies elsewhere in the region began to do so. But public sentiment appears to be shifting in Montgomery, driven less by ideology than by alarm over rising crime and the recent slayings of a 14-year-old honor student on a county transit bus and a 63-year-old woman in her Bethesda home. “People who are very, very tolerant want to see some changes,” said County Council member Marc Elrich (D-At Large),”

  94. kettle1 says:

    sorry sean,

    i read to fast then…… if/when real food shortages start if when GTFA. but that is a separate but related plan

  95. kettle1 says:


    you could always offer the rioters mud cookies!

    Poor Haitians Resort to Eating Dirt

  96. Essex says:

    Jamil…On this I agree….

  97. Essex says:

    93…I would guess that some areas will not riots Sean…while high crime areas might….It’ll be strange though and stretch the authorities thin….all of the nat. guard still in Iraq??

  98. sas says:

    Sean & kettle,

    look into non-lethal weapons. good for controling riots that was mentioned in your post. Its a real thing & very effective. that is why i believe you won’t see such riots, even if “worse case” did happen. things would get nipped in the bud.

    what could happen, which would be a real threat, like in Katrina, when things got real nasty, a private group Blackwater, was hired to take away peoples guns in Orleans. Talk about being screwed.

    That is why, if someone does midnight gardening, can’t hurt to add lead as fertilizer:)

    keeping things on the down low never hurts too.
    outta sight, outta mind as i like to say.

  99. Essex says:

    100….registering is a mistake??

  100. sas says:

    also, as a word of advice:
    i wouldn’t be too liberal on this site as to what your storing and where.
    (or to anyone else really)

    these boards are monitored more than just Grim and his moderation button.

    trust me on that

  101. sas says:

    “100….registering is a mistake??”

    following the law is never a mistake.
    but, one has to ask themselves. is it a moral law?

    you be the judge.

  102. lostinny says:

    102 sas
    I am sure I am on at least one list already. What’s one more?

  103. comrade nom deplume says:

    [89] spam

    Eerie? As you noted, these are (mostly) things we use (and use up). In fact, everyone has these in their homes in some amount. I just think that having a decent supply is the longer-term equivalent of stocking up before a snowstorm.

    As for imbeciles that want my “stash”, well, there are other things I have stockpiled. And my security, while not extreme or elaborate, is sufficient.

    As for compound needs, you are correct. If we do acquire the compound, the list will be different. And your point about water is well-taken: I am looking for surface water in my compound, and ideally would be able to turn it into a power source as well.

  104. sas says:

    “I am sure I am on at least one list already. What’s one more?”

    good one bloke:)

    another word of advice too.
    there are some on here whom act as “posers”.

    thus far, i have sniffed out 2 kinds:
    i’d rather not get into it.

    just something to keep in the back of your mind when posting. otherwise all is good.

    no, i’m not one of them. oy!
    i didn’t just fall off the turnip truck.


  105. comrade nom deplume says:

    [104] SAS.

    If you relocate to the state with your “supplies”, you don’t need to register them.

    I still have a PA driver’s license.


  106. lostinny says:

    106 Sas
    I hear you. But I prefer “las”

  107. comrade nom deplume says:

    [108] lost

    you mean “lass”, don’t you lassie?

    Or perhaps “sheila”?

  108. Essex says:

    My education continues.

  109. comrade nom deplume says:

    [110] essex

    For my perspective, that’s why we call law a “practice.”

    We sure as heck haven’t mastered it, and never will. So we “practice.”

  110. comrade nom deplume says:

    [89] spam

    Tang. You are showing your age (or lack of it).

    Tang is powdered orange juice. Probably not real. It was advertised in my youth as the astronaut’s drink.

    Used to be you could buy bottles of premixed screwdriver, made with Tang and cheap vodka. It was called “Tango.” In HS, my friends and I did not much like beer (and found it too inefficient), so we would each buy a quart of Tango and go cruising. These became known as “Tango tours” in our yearbooks.

  111. lostinny says:

    Ah yeah lass sorry.
    Never heard the sheila term.

  112. comrade nom deplume says:

    [113] lost

    Ask barien. He’s heard it a lot I’ll wager. It’s an Aussie term for a woman.

    Barien: Last of the Coopers is gone. Thanks mate!!

  113. lostinny says:

    114 Nom
    Thanks for the info.

  114. Essex says:

    111. Same with medicine as i hear.

  115. Essex says:

    “Lostinny” is that a reference to a naval?

  116. jamil says:

    People are leaving CA, NY, NJ and rust belt in droves and moving to red states. Too bad they bring their voting habits with them and destroy them too..

    “The number of people leaving California for another state outstripped the number moving in from another state during the year ending on July 1, 2008. California lost a net total of 144,000 people during that period — more than any other state, according to census estimates. That is about equal to the population of Syracuse, N.Y.

    The state with the next-highest net loss through migration between states was New York, which lost just over 126,000 residents.

    “We’ve lived off the investments our parents made in the ’50s and ’60s for a long time,” says Tim Hodson, director of the Center for California Studies at California State University, Sacramento. “We’re somewhat in the position of a Rust Belt state in the 1970s.”


  117. Sean says:

    SaS _ The Greek government ran out of tear gas and if it was not for Christmas they would most likely still be rioting. We have allot more people here in NY Metro if stuff hits the fan I am getting out and it won’t be to PA.

  118. Essex says:

    Jameel…the election is over…save it for 2012.

  119. Essex says:

    Yeah man…..I have family in Indy…maybe that is the destination?

  120. jamil says:

    Essex. I can wait until 2012, but I’m not sure if NJ can wait.

  121. yikes says:

    what could happen, which would be a real threat, like in Katrina, when things got real nasty, a private group Blackwater, was hired to take away peoples guns in Orleans. Talk about being screwed.

    do you have any links to back this up? What about our right to bear arms? If you have a registered weapon, you mean to tell me they went up and took your weapons?

    Im going to need some proof/evidence other than “I head this.”

    also – what ‘non lethal’ weapons do you speak of?

    ps – the doom and gloom on here today was hysterical.

  122. jamil says:

    NJ should learn the lesson..

    Why California is No Longer a Paradise

    “As I wrote before, those states were once the industrial dynamo for the entire Earth, yet they destroyed that enormous economic dominance by political policies hostile to economic creativity.

    Likewise, California had a golden era as an economic and cultural dynamo. Well up until the late 1980s California was the place to go to make it big. People moved from other states to California. Now, internal migration has reversed. California looks less like a dreamland and more like basket case waiting to happen.”

    “It seems that in post-New Deal America, economic and civil success sow their own seeds of destruction. When things are going good, socialits experimentation seems harmless. A booming economy can pay for increased government spending and an ever-increasing scope of government power. Eventually, however, socialims strangles the economic engine and destroys civil society.

    I think Texas may be the next boom state and I hope we escape this trap. One would think that socialims would not gain a foothold in independent minded Texas, but California was once a land of rugged individualists too. ”


  123. Essex says:

    What about our right to arm bears?

  124. Essex says:

    The more people bail on CA the more desirable it will be Jamil…most of the people leaving cannot afford it…prices drop….new blood comes in….circle of life. I would love to be out there.

  125. Essex says:

    I would love to see an equal exodus from NJ and we will continue to see it….only the strong (financially) survive. The purge will be refreshing….more room to move around and drive the roads….smaller class sizes with fewer illegals….illiterates…etc.

  126. Essex says:

    If you own a home it is a roof over your head…..and a place to ride out the storm…as it rages all around you….stock up on barbed wire too.

  127. yikes says:

    my wife says Tang can also be used as a cleaning supply.

    i’m also interested about where to get non-lethal weapons.

    i just watched I Am Legend (on HBO, daily) and Will Smith had a grenade tucked away as a last resort. (by the way, i really like the little underground compound he built in that movie.) that worked well, although he did die in the movie.

    as for food riots … i’m eager to stock up. costco is my friend!

  128. d2b says:

    If the shit hits the fan I’m going to NJ. My uncle in Wildwood is like McGyver and I can fish. While I think that there could be problems some day, I doubt that we will see a Mad Max situation.

    My plan is flawed because I may run out of Old Bay. I should probably start to stockpile.

  129. lostinny says:

    What is your problem? How would lostinny have anything to do with a naval? And btw it’s navel, not naval.

  130. jamil says:

    Essex “The more people bail on CA the more desirable”

    Unfortunately (for CA), it is mostly the productive tax-paying people (and companies) that are leaving. Illegals, public employees and other parasites remain.

  131. Outofstater says:

    #83 Great list! I’d add chocolate, dried beans, lentils and lots of herbs and spices to the list too. (The same basic ingredients can be made to taste like something new and different with different herbs.) There are lots of reasons to have extra stuff – ice storm, illness, supply disruptions, job loss. It’s just a good idea.

  132. Outofstater says:

    Forgot – I’ve heard you can freeze eggs by cracking them into ice trays, freezing them, then popping them into ziploc bags for storage. Haven’t tried it yet though.

  133. bairen says:

    #114 nom,

    Correct on the Sheila,

    Glad you like the Cooper’s. If you can find James Boag go for it.

    Just about anything from Tasmania is good!

  134. lostinny says:

    Have you heard about the dream job where you get to live on an island for 6 months for 100k? Terrible thing to have to snorkel and walk the beaches.


  135. Confused In NJ says:

    93.Sean says:
    January 13, 2009 at 6:18 pm
    Kettle1 I said “imbiciles”, which I am defintely not. When it comes down to it within a week of food shortages there will be thousands if not tens of thousands out on the streets of NJ rioting and setting everything on fire. There is no escaping and not enough ammo.

    I think a flame thrower will keep most out of your house.

  136. Stu says:

    Shoot, I would build a mote!

  137. Barbara says:

    Its is all so 1990’s black helicopters in here today. In the spirit of things, I bring you this:



  138. victorian says:

    Geithner shows the way to a Tax Revolt.

    “Geithner, Choice for Treasury, Questioned on His Tax Returns”

    Timothy F. Geithner, President-elect Barack O’s choice to be Treasury secretary, failed to pay tens of thousands of dollars in federal taxes and also faces questions about the immigration status of a former household employee, according to the committee and the Obama transition.

    After the underpayments were detected, he paid back taxes and interest totalling $43,200.


  139. jamil says:

    Well, if you are a congressman in charge of tax laws, or Treasury Sec, paying taxes is purely optional. Hiring illegals is also ok. Laws are for riffraff anyway.

  140. Clotpoll says:

    grim (2)-

    Glad I was away from a TV or radio and missed this puddle of drivel.

  141. Clotpoll says:

    John (11)-

    Why don’t they let dogs poop on the sidewalk in front of the branches…and not clean it up? Instant re-branding.

    “Chase To Spend $375 Million to Rebrand WaMu Branches”

  142. Clotpoll says:

    Stu (46)-

    Are you actually Ron Popeil?

  143. Clotpoll says:

    vodka (54)-

    Of course, S&P picks on the little guys first.

  144. Clotpoll says:

    tosh (63)-

    Clotpoll is reporting that C will blow itself into smithereens.

    “FT is reporting Citi will break itself up in two primary parts; commercial and IB….”

  145. Clotpoll says:

    tosh (71)-

    Beavis now welded to Butthead.

  146. zieba says:

    How about geothermal energy in the compound in lieu of running surface water. This way it would be more difficult to taint at the source and sas could actually sleep at night. All we need to do is to collect, cool and purify.

  147. Clotpoll says:

    zieba (149)-

    Only wondering how many ducats a good shortwave radio will cost.

  148. zieba says:


  149. Clotpoll says:

    zieba (149)-

    Higher highs, higher lows?

  150. Clotpoll says:


    Come in, Berlin…

  151. Stu says:


    Nope. I dried my food for my Appalachian trail expeditions. I was the best fed hiker on the trail. Best dried meal? Sloppy Joes!

  152. sas says:

    oh man where to start with some of you?

  153. Stu says:


    Are you my grandfather?

  154. sas says:

    ok, the east german moderation button is back, it won’t let me do my rebuttal.


  155. sas says:

    ““do you have any links to back this up? What about our right to bear arms? If you have a registered weapon, you mean to tell me they went up and took your weapons?”

    New Orleans Begins Confiscating Firearms as Water Recedes
    Published: September 8, 2005

  156. sas says:

    “do you have any links to back this up? What about our right to bear arms? If you have a registered weapon, you mean to tell me they went up and took your weapons?”

    New Orleans Begins Confiscating Firearms as Water Recedes
    Published: September 8, 2005

  157. Clotpoll says:

    Everybody knows SAS is Jack Bauer.

  158. Clotpoll says:

    moderated at 158 for claiming that sas is J@ck B@uer.

    Holy crap!

  159. Clotpoll says:

    I think CTU is after me…

  160. spam spam bacon spam says:


    re: water…

    I keep reading “what ifs” but I’m not sure you’ve ever had to REALLY do this….this relying on the earth to provide….

    Water is fickle. And you can not control it. And you CAN’T control the upstream use.

    Remember, a flowing stream is “alive”…it flows quaintly, it trickles, it dries up, it overflows, it washes away structures, it erodes land, it physically moves its own boundaries, etc.

    So for power, hmmmm. You’d better REALLY plan ahead. Like years and millions of dollars ahead, if you want to power anything like a basement workshop.

    Seriously, (and I’m just as guilty) I think people who pose ideas like this really have NO CLUE how much we’d REALLY need to survive… Thru technological advances and the advancement of creature comforts, we have been so far removed from what life’s harsh reality really is…

    Planning on really, REALLY having to depend on your own efforts to survive go WAY beyond plannong a weekend camping trip.

    When your own efforts are the ONLY way you can survive, fear drives your every waking moment and is a sobering experience. The slow understanding that your life will never be “the old way” again, makes actual physical changes in your brain.

    And TRUST ME ON THIS… shaving cream, napkins and yes, brew supplies will be a distant memory, if you even have the time to remember.

  161. Clotpoll says:

    Bill Buchanan and Chloe are watching me in my house.

  162. sas says:

    I’m trying to rebuttal yikes @ 123
    but the stupid moderation button is on.


  163. sas says:

    Are you my grandfather?”


  164. sas says:

    do you have any links to back this up? What about our right to bear arms? If you have a registered weapon, you mean to tell me they went up and took your weapons?
    Im going to need some proof/evidence other than “I head this.”

    first sniglet off of goog.

  165. Sean says:

    This one is for SaS, just to show we care.


    FYI, I believe 15k National Guard have been mustered for the event this weekend.

  166. sas says:

    “also – what ‘non lethal’ weapons do you speak of?”

    long range acoustic device (LRAD)
    pulsed-energy projectile (PEP)
    Anti-traction material (ATM)
    Nonlethal airburst munitions
    Thermobaric technology

    yawn, i’m getting bored…

  167. Clotpoll says:

    sas (168)-

    Bored? This stuff sounds pretty exciting to me.

    Thermobaric technology?

  168. sas says:

    “ps – the doom and gloom on here today was hysterical”

    yes, twas a tad gloomy in here today, but each there own.

    as for hysterical, yes…. the bubble economics & bubble economy has a secondary effect of maken people think in bubbles too.


  169. Sean says:

    SaS, the micromillimeter wave stuff is fascinating.

  170. sas says:

    “This one is for SaS, just to show we care”

    i’m a little tired, i don’t get it?


  171. sas says:

    SAS’s disclaimer:

    I’m not asking anyone to believe me, i would hope you do your own research and draw your own conlcusions with whatever i post.

    (you may just find out this ol’ buzzard may know what he is talking about afterall).


  172. Sean says:

    SaS = you mentioned troops on American soil. I figured I would post something recent unlike the riots on 92, it will be interesting to see
    how the latest bunch enforce crowd control.

  173. sas says:

    “sas is J@ck B@uer”

    I’m no J@ck B@uer because he is made up.
    there is a dirty little secret behind that show.

    but hey… what do i know?

  174. Shore Guy says:


    I wonder how many readers will gloss over the line about “complete collapse of the financial system,” when they read this article in the morning.

  175. Shore Guy says:


    I don’t know if the MEDUSA about which you speak is the same MEDUSA that I have had contact with but, if so, it is an amazing thing, or will be, anyway.

  176. Shore Guy says:

    “Best dried meal? Sloppy Joes!”

    Just have to get rid of the fat to keep it from going rancid.

  177. kettle1 says:

    thermobaric, non lethal???????

    is this some new area 51 stuff or whjat SAS, thermobarics are highly lethal, they are considered one of the most powerful non-nuclear explosives due to the long period of overpressure they create

  178. kettle1 says:


    I have nothing to back this up, but from my experience in pharma and engineering i would be shocked in MEDUSA doesnt have a number of side-effects some possibly serious, for anyone who receives anything but very short term exposure.

    Microwave energy and human proteins often do not play well together.

    I have also read that there is a laser version of medusa, know anything about that????

    On non-lethal , the non-lethal claim of “non-lethal for the ADS system is likely to be tested the first time they use it on a crowd that is covered by the media. Anyone stuck in the middle of the crowd and cannot move away from the beam could easily receive 3rd degree burns. Oh and dont forget the fact that it can cause eye damage and will heat metal to a few hundred degres almost instantly. Wearing any rings or jewlery? thats gonna leave a mark…..

  179. kettle1 says:


    the neat thing is that if you know that these sorts of directed energy “non-lethal” weapons are going to be used there are some potentially very effective low tech counters to them.

    I will be interesting to see how the authorities respond the first time a protector reflects and ADS beam back at them

  180. yikes says:

    SAS, you crack me up, man.

    1) that NYT link pisses me off. what’s the difference between hiring security to carry firearms, but the residents can’t have weapons? what’s that about? is it simply the size of your weapon that matters? if that’s the case, i’ll pick up that AR-15 ive been eyeballing. and then i’ll get a SECURITY badge from the mall.

    2) those non-lethal weapons you speak of … can they be purchased by anyone? just curious.

    i actually dont believe it’s going to get nearly this bad, and i sure as heck hope it doesn’t (but im glad we’re out of NYC). it is fun and somewhat disturbing to talk about this stuff as if it were a video game or something.

    i’d say, ‘that stuff only happens in 3rd world countries’ … but based on the debt the US has compiled in the last few years …

  181. d2b says:

    Is it time to write off the sickest banks and use the second half of TARP to shore up the system? Is it more important to save GS or the economy?

  182. d2b says:

    Is it time to write off the sickest banks and use the second half of TARP to shore up the system? Is it more important to save GS or the economy?

  183. kettle1 says:


    you cannot buy any of the non=-lethal weapons sas listed. you might be able to build a few of them though if you really wanted to.

    for non-lethal, think mace.

  184. KareninCA says:

    #83 great list – main thing missing is cooking oil. you’ll use more than you think. check expiration dates.

    lots of hefty bags, plastic tarps and strapping tape (not duct tape) for rain gear, carrying stuff and fixing windows.

    painkillers would be key, as would antibiotics. having to wait months for a dentist w/o painkillers would be awful. I’m hoping it doesn’t get that bad, as I don’t have either (other than aspirin)

    asthma inhaler things. so many people need them. statins, so your aged relatives don’t have to go cold turkey.

    learn where all the local Mormons live, as it is one of their doctrines that they are supposed to keep a year’s supply of food on hand (really).

  185. KareninCA says:

    oh, yeah, you really shouldn’t eat tomatoes from cans. cans these days are lined with plastic, the same sort of plastic that when given (IN SMALL AMOUNTS) to rats makes them obese and diabetic. acidic foods like tomatoes make the chemicals leach out. non-acidic canned foods are probably fine.

  186. Jersey Jim says:

    yikes says:
    January 13, 2009 at 7:26 pm
    what could happen, which would be a real threat, like in Katrina, when things got real nasty, a private group Blackwater, was hired to take away peoples guns in Orleans. Talk about being screwed.

    do you have any links to back this up? What about our right to bear arms? If you have a registered weapon, you mean to tell me they went up and took your weapons?

    Im going to need some proof/evidence other than “I head this.”

    also – what ‘non lethal’ weapons do you speak of?

    ps – the doom and gloom on here today was hysterical.

    This really happened. It was reported in the NRA magazine American Rifleman and also in the mainstream news media. It was the police though that were taking weapons from people not Blackwater. These weapons were legally registered by the way. And remember, the police weren’t protecting the public so the only people with guns were criminals. Some people were arrested who didn’t want to give up their weapons. Also remember that these people were in their houses, they weren’t carrying the weapons around outside. Just another good reason to have a couple of weapons with no paper trail in a secure location.

    I’ve had the bushes removed in my front yard so I have clear fields of fire. I’m also having fences put up in order to channel intruders towards the front.

    As far as the food list, I’m not sure if peanut butter was mentioned, but you would want that because it is high in protein and keeps well.

  187. bairen says:

    #136 lostinny

    I saw that. I posted it on another thread this week. Sounds rough. Getting pid 100k to sit on a beach, snorkel, etc.

  188. lostinny says:

    188 Bairen

    I didn’t realize you already posted. I hope the poor bastard that gets the job can handle it.

  189. Essex says:

    Navel….as in I used to have an ‘inny’ now I have an ‘outty’…..duh!?

  190. lostinny says:

    You obviously don’t pay attention to my posts which is fine. If you had, you would have known that I am in NY. So lost in ny means just that- I am lost in NY. So don’t duh me. You are the one that didn’t get it. I don’t know why you feel the need to be antagonistic towards me. But I really don’t need your attitude. So why don’t you go find someone else to annoy?

  191. Essex says:

    Inny….you are right…your posts do not interest me at all….

  192. lostinny says:

    They don’t interest you but you feel the need to pick a fight though. For someone so big you really have a lot of growing up to do.
    I will no longer reply to your foolishness.

  193. Essex says:

    Me … manchild …. you … easy target.

  194. Essex says:

    So let’s get another outhouse thread going ladies! That one was riveting!!!

Comments are closed.