Property Tax Appeal Surge Expected

From the Herald News:

Taxing times for homeowners

Homeowners will likely file a mountain of tax appeals this year, hoping the real estate crash will provide a silver lining — relief from the nation’s highest property taxes.

But they shouldn’t count on winning.

Although home prices in North Jersey dipped 11 percent in the last year alone, proving in tax court that your home is overassessed is another matter.

The burden is on homeowners to use data to show their home value, as of October 2008, is too high based on other sales. That could be hard in a year when sales were few and far between, providing little evidence for homeowners to make their case.

“We’re anticipating a substantial number of tax appeals,” said Louis Izenberg, an appraiser who represents towns and large property owners. “Having said that, at the end of the day, the New Jersey Tax Court relies upon evidence, and for the first time I can recall, we really don’t have an abundance of data.”

And some towns — which have a 15 percent margin of error on home assessments — have already adjusted for softer market prices. In addition, an analysis by The Record of 25 North Jersey municipalities found that 19 met a key state test measuring whether property taxes are distributed fairly among homeowners.

Homeowners could actually take an extra hit this year if failing businesses win their tax appeals, shifting the town’s overall tax burden from commercial to residential owners.

Still, there are some signs this year could be better for homeowners than years past.

While the percentage of winning tax appeals statewide hasn’t climbed much since the market peaked in 2006, the number of settlements — deals cut before a decision is reached in tax court — have steadily increased to 35 percent.

Some of the strongest candidates for reductions are homeowners whose towns last did property assessment updates around the height of the housing boom, and owners of high-end properties, experts say.

A massive drop in value is what drove more than 100 residents of Winston Towers, a condominium development in Cliffside Park, to file appeals. The luxury apartments — which offer New York views and use of an Olympic-sized pool — went for $740,000 at the height of the market. They are now selling for about $500,000.

No one knows how many appeals will be filed this year because the deadline is April 1. But county and local officials are expecting an increase, and tax lawyers and personal appraisers are reporting a spike in client interest.

“We have currently about 2,500 appeals pending, and we’re ready to file about 1,000, and I’m going to see another 1,000 after that,” said Livingston property tax attorney Lee Holtzman. “They’re coming out of the woodwork here. Everyone’s complaining.”

This entry was posted in Economics, Housing Bubble, New Jersey Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

435 Responses to Property Tax Appeal Surge Expected

  1. grim says:

    From the APP:

    Some motor vehicle fees will go up later this year to cover costs

    Motor Vehicle Commission fees for things such as documents, motorcycle registrations, commercial-driver exam permits and bad-driver programs may rise substantially in a few months.

    Quantcast

    Costs wouldn’t increase for driver’s licenses or car registrations. But fee increases of 50 percent or more are proposed for some MVC transactions, among them a jump in costs for motorcycle registrations from $10 a year to $65.

    In all, the added fees would cost motorists an estimated $40 million to $60 million a year. All that money would go back to the motor vehicle agency, which faces a deficit of about $27 million in the upcoming fiscal year.

    The proposed fees are designed to reflect more closely the commission’s cost for those transactions, said Sharon Harrington, the MVC’s chief administrator.

    “Some pieces of our business were subsidizing other pieces of our business, which isn’t fair to the taxpayers,” Harrington said.

  2. grim says:

    From the Star Ledger:

    Owner of Philadelphia newspapers files for protection from creditors

    The owner of The Philadelphia Inquirer and Philadelphia Daily News filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection Sunday in an effort to restructure its debt load.

    Philadelphia Newspapers Inc., owned by Philadelphia Media Holdings LLC, is the second newspaper company in two days, and fourth in recent months, to seek bankruptcy protection.

  3. grim says:

    From MarketWatch:

    Report: Government considers bigger stake in Citi

    Citigroup Inc. reportedly is in talks with federal officials for the U.S. government to expand its ownership of the bank to as much as 40%.

  4. grim says:

    From CNBC:

    Unemployment Could Hit 9% this Year: NABE Forecasters

    Brace yourself: The recession is projected to worsen this year.

    The country stands to lose a sizable chunk of economic activity in 2009 as consumers at home and abroad retrench in the face of persistent economic troubles.

    And the U.S. unemployment rate — now at 7.6 percent, the highest in more than 16 years — is expected hit a peak of 9 percent this year.

    That gloomy outlook came from leading forecasters in the latest survey by the National Association for Business Economics to be released Monday.

    The new estimates are roughly in line with other recent projections, including those released last week by the Federal Reserve.

    “The steady drumbeat of weak economic and financial market data have made business economists decidedly more pessimistic on the economic outlook for the next several quarters,” said NABE president Chris Varvares, head of Macroeconomic Advisers.

    All told, Varvares and his fellow forecasters now expect the economy to shrink by 1.9 percent this year, a much deeper contraction than the 0.2 percent dip projected in the fall.

  5. Clotpoll says:

    Isn’t the wayward Toll Brother one of the owners of the Philly Inquirer? Didn’t he put the money he cashed out of Toll into his investment in this stiff?

  6. frank says:

    Clotpoll,
    Thanks for the SRS idea, with some SRS puts and few thousand shares of FAS you are going to make me rich today.

  7. kettle1 says:

    stu,

    i look better in blue, i would have to go for the top left….

    http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/wan/1045733964.html

  8. BC Bob says:

    “A massive drop in value is what drove more than 100 residents of Winston Towers, a condominium development in Cliffside Park, to file appeals. The luxury apartments — which offer New York views and use of an Olympic-sized pool — went for $740,000 at the height of the market. They are now selling for about $500,000.”

    HMMM? What did Duckie say about CP?

  9. sas says:

    the movie IOUSA is propaganda.
    and a disappointment.

    SAS

  10. Brokedick says:

    ha ha ha citi is rocking the house!!! Cramer rules!!!

  11. Mikeinwaiting says:

    SAS If you had come to any other conclusion it would have been suspect.
    Not that I disagree.

  12. kettle1 says:

    8 SAS

    Really? everyone has their slant, but that does not make it propaganda. IOUSA had legit info and a good point as to financial sustainability. yes it may just be the tip of the iceberg, but you have to start somewhere.

  13. kettle1 says:

    hey look,

    C is almost worth more then their atm fee in pre-open trading….

  14. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Went to PA Walmart to pick up some stuff. Passed by the locked ammo cases in sporting goods very sparse. I ask the nice lady there why “can’t keep it on the shelves” I gather ammo selling like hotcakes is indicative of something, draw your own conclusions.

  15. sas says:

    “everyone has their slant, but that does not make it propaganda”

    yes, i was on the fence about it not being propaganda and just a weak film.
    but, I tracked the finance & marketing of the movie. Goes to PBS and a few people whom make you wonder.
    so, i “suspect” its propaganda.

    IOUSA had legit info and a good point as to financial sustainability. yes it may just be the tip of the iceberg.

    yes, does have good points otherwise it would be laughed out of town.

    SAS

  16. Mikeinwaiting says:

    KET 12 Yea right to the moon!
    Sarcasm off.

  17. BC Bob says:

    “Cramer rules!!!’

    [11]

    Just a coincidence that your logon is Brokedick?

  18. sas says:

    i posted this last night:

    IOUSA = sneaky propaganda (look into background people who did the marketing)

    and i will tell you why

    -just shows dumbass americans whom are clueless

    -no mention of energy technology suppressed & funny money monopoly with big oil and middle east,
    energy costs could be reduced compared to what they are now and our savings would be much higher.

    -no mention of costs for health insurance, Medicare and Medicaid.
    and the fraud that goes on in drug pricing (FDA/Pharma marriages)

    -If government had produced proper financial statements as required by law and had also produced disclosure contiguous to Congressional districts, the housing bubble and a lot of other bubbles might never have happened.

    -currency and monetary systems is run by private bankers, with priority is their own member banks self interest. we would not have any debt.

    -no mention of media and government propaganda to influence you and lies told.

    -Trillions missing from the Pentagon and DOD…things would look very different.

    -people being suckered into debt for college. aka college debt bubble.
    financial aid & schools admission corruption

    We have a system where secret sects government can steal and have Congress, the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve replace whatever they stole. The theory is that the end of the world will come unless we bail out them.

    IOUSA diverts away from real issues.

    just my thoughts
    SAS

  19. AstoriaMike says:

    I’m sorry to ask what should be obvious, but is there a new tax assessment done at the time of purchase, or does a buyer still need to file an abatement when the assessed value is far above the purchase price/comp prices?

  20. kettle1 says:

    How California Became France

    California is in a French-like bind: unable to afford a welfare-type state, and unable to overhaul it. “The people say they want all these programs, then there’s nothing they want to pay for,” says Hector De La Torre, a Democratic assemblyman. “The schizophrenia in the legislature reflects the peoples’.”

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123517419077037281.html

  21. sas says:

    ok, i have to put together some slides.

    i am doing a presentation on Thur night in midtown.
    titled “Economic Gangsters”

    later gater,
    SAS

  22. Cindy says:

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/23/business/23bank.php?page=1

    “Converting the preferred shares while also issuing more common shares would bring Citigroup closer to the mix of equity that the government is likely to demand when it rolls out the new stress test.”

    So is this some sort of ploy to prop them up so they pass the “stress test.” They will look less leveraged as preferred is treated as debt?

    What is the point of doing this? Won’t is just fall back down?

  23. grim says:

    Can I have an invite?

  24. kettle1 says:

    Mike in waiting

    you might find this interesting regarding our chat about smaller outlying towns…

    http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175037/nick_turse_closing_down_main_street

  25. kettle1 says:

    SAS,

    I second grim, are invites available?

    Second; i dont disagree with you points listed at post 17. However for the general public you would lose credibility instantly if you tried to cover all of that. realistically, you have to target your presentation to yuor audience. And the audience for IOUSA was the general public, a group that still believe that the government has their best interest in mind.

  26. grim says:

    IOUSA is associated with Addison Wiggin, Bill Bonner and the rest of the Agora Financial (The Daily Reckoning) crew.

    IOUSA is very much in-line with their thoughts/books/writings and Agora is in the business of selling financial information.

  27. Clotpoll says:

    Cindy (21)-

    Of course. And, of course, the results of the stress tests will all be rigged.

    I think Mish or Seeking Alpha had a great article last week on how FDIC and DOT don’t have examiners who are sharp enough to administer any kind of meaningful stress test. They simply don’t have the chops.

    The whole thing is a charade. All the big banks are insolvent. The whole financial system is insolvent. The entire charade being played out now is Weekend at Bernie’s II.

  28. kettle1 says:

    Cindy,

    My take is yes, the big banks cannot survive a real stress test in their current state. Citi and BAC are already sudeo-nationalized anyway.

    The government cannot afford to have them outright fail

    the FDIC has only a fraction of the reserves necessary to back $1-2T of depositor losses. And that’s up to $250k limit. There are reports that the various agencies, states, and others have $500b or so in uninsured deposits.

    What about stockholders & bondholders? That’s another $2-3 trillion of losses for pension funds and foreign investors if any/all of the big 4 go down.

    If the government tries to cover either the depositor or investor losses, they’ll have to issue a HUGE amount of treasuries. Investors are getting antsy over funding the $800b porkulus bill, let alone $3-5 trillion needed to bailout the Any or all of the Big 4 banks. If they try to print their way out of this debacle, then you can say good bye to a lot of foreign investor who are currently backing US debt, as well as seeing china and japan scream bloody murder. China and Japan are already making public statements urging the US not to devalue its debt

  29. grim says:

    Although if you don’t enjoy the Mogambo Guru on a regular basis, I suggest it.

  30. kettle1 says:

    BC 27

    They left out Obama’s porkulous plan, that kicks us up part 9T

  31. BC Bob says:

    kettle [31],

    Just waiting for the next package to update.

  32. Frank says:

    Talk this morning about the govt converting their $40bn in prefereds into a 40% stake in Citi (Citi market cap as of Friday was $10.6bn)…….pretty savy investment on the part of the govt, turning $40bn into a $4bn equity stake – Barney Frank may want to convene a hearing to investigate that wealth destruction.

  33. Stu says:

    C might be up this morning, but the planned common stock dilution will bring it way down. As a shareholder (if you were stupid enough to hold it this long), you should view this 40% nationalization pop as your last chance to escape. Otherwise, all you are really buying is a U.S. Treasury. If the U.S. goes, so goes Citi. How long before the stake goes up to 60, then to 80, then to 100?

  34. kettle1 says:

    seeing interesting proposals pop up… things should get interesting if any of this takes hold

    A Debtor Union has been proposed by Keith at the Pirate Caucus. Keith writes that “A debtors union is open to all who are indebted–credit cards, car loans, mortgages, student loans, medical bills etc. and once we organize ourselves we can refuse to pay and organize a mass default and force the debt to be written off, or we could decide to renegotiate the debt at a steep discount maybe twenty cents on the dollar. That will be for the union members to decide for themselves. In any event, we can take our destiny into our hands —Let’s ‘bailout’ ourselves, lets ‘recapitalize’ ourselves, lets get out of debt!” (full post)

    The daring anti-bank Spanish activist Enric Duran who reached international fame by borrowing and then refusing to pay half a million Euro is promoting the idea of a Bank Strike. His organization, Crisis, has already spawned a North American Bank Strike Chapter. Here is how they explain their plan for a Bank Strike:

  35. Stu says:

    And as predicted, almost all talk of a recovery in 2009 has been slowly pushed back to 2010 and I heard a few rumblings of 2011 this morning on Bloomberg with Tom Keene who reminded everyone that the auto bailout is yet to be resolved.

  36. Cindy says:

    Thanks all…You are so on top of this…

  37. Stu says:

    “things should get interesting if any of this takes hold”

    As great as these ideas sound in theory, unless you can figure out a way to pull people away from Dancin’ with the Stars, there will be absolutely no traction.

  38. kettle1 says:

    britian preping for civil unrest this summer.

    Britain faces summer of rage – police

    “Middle-class anger at economic crisis could erupt into violence on streets.

    Police are preparing for a “summer of rage” as victims of the economic downturn take to the streets to demonstrate against financial institutions”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/feb/23/police-civil-unrest-recession

  39. Cindy says:

    That’s U.S. Economists Optimistic for 2010 Rebound…(Left off rebound…)

  40. kettle1 says:

    stu,

    i am not suggesting i support the method of a debt strike, but find it interesting that we are starting to see some “mustard seeds” as some like to say, although perhaps a variety they politicos may not care for

  41. SG says:

    Watched Slumdog win 8 Oscars yesterday. I recommend to all to see it. The story is exaggerated and has little bit bollywood style, but it is definitely different.

    BTW: I grew up in Mumbai and have seen some gang violence in slums, so can related to parts of the story. Also, I feel most US citizens would benefit viewing how many in 3rd world slums live and how much better they are off, even with 40% drop in dow.

  42. Barbara says:

    public anger never reaches the people who deserve it in the US. Soon you’ll see the usual suspects (gays, minorities, Hollywood, the Godless etc) pulled out again to placate the masses.

  43. Sean says:

    Beware Relief Rallies…..

    Quote// As they try and repeatedly fail to meet expectations the Period of False Hope and Uncertainty will give way to the Era of Total Despair, and then we will see a bottom. Lost and wandering the ideological landscape with all of the old beliefs washed out, men go mad and grasp for any explanation but the truth — that the debt must be deflated before recovery can begin — and anything can happen. Watch Kudlow’s show and you’ll see what I mean. //UNQUOTE

  44. Clotpoll says:

    (33)-

    Funny to see this searing analysis coming from somebody who’s directly part of the problem. For somebody who’s gleefully admitted fleecing the state of NJ, you are either incredibly stupid to keep up your line of drivel here or, as most of us suspect, a spectacular troll.

    BTW, I just got a new coffee machine. How do I make a double macchiato?

    Back to ignoring you. Unless you have some good coffee recipes.

  45. 3b says:

    #40 The same clowns who were optimistic for a rebound in 2009.

    They will just keep pushing it off 2011, 2012, and so on.

  46. Barbara says:

    SG,
    I loved it right up until it went all Scarface. The first half was intense, I almost had to leave the theater, and to your point, really put our lives here in perspective.

  47. 3b says:

    #44 Oh Barbara, there you go againa dvocating personal responsibility. Whats wrong with you?

  48. SG says:

    Barbara: public anger never reaches the people who deserve it in the US.

    You are right. The issue is the pain is not stark enough yet. The majority’s situation is like Boiling frog placed in cold water that is slowly heated.

  49. Clotpoll says:

    SG (43)-

    Why the hell do any of us need to watch a movie about where this country is headed and how we’re going to be living for the next 40 years? We’re already a third world country; the only thing left to happen to confirm this will be the broken glass-encrusted walls going up and the persistent exurban violence to begin.

  50. Barbara says:

    3b,
    hehe, plenty of blame to go around but this old cast of characters is getting tired :)

  51. Clotpoll says:

    SG (43)-

    Within five years, our slums will be bigger and worse than anything in Mumbai.

  52. Barbara says:

    I hated Kate Winslet’s dress last night.
    That is all.

  53. 3b says:

    #5252 Barbara: I was stunned at the abuse you took yesterday post, from a couple of posters. Simply amazing.

  54. Sean says:

    Giving an Oscar to a guy who was hopped up while acting on oxycodone, hydrocodone, diazepam, temazepam, alprazolam and doxylamine? What a role model.

  55. Sean says:

    grim #56 in Mod.

  56. Barbara says:

    3b,
    ever since Grim went all celebrity on us we’ve gotten some new posters that are pretty pissed at the situation and don’t want to look in the mirror.

  57. Barbara says:

    56.
    Mickey Rourke should have won. I still can’t understand it.

  58. chicagofinance says:

    Pat says:
    February 23, 2009 at 1:24 am
    Stu? ??? ???
    http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/wan/1045733964.html

    Pat: Considered Goddy?!? I would have accepted maybe Gotti.

    It reminds me of one the most unintentionally hysterical personal ads I read by some hopeless girl….she wrote “chow bella”….

  59. freedy says:

    screw MRourke, guys a washed up rummy

  60. Mikeinwaiting says:

    I would not watch that dribble last night. Who cares, we have bigger fish to fry. Pick up a book anything but that.

  61. Barbara says:

    61.
    so was Bella Legosi

  62. chicagofinance says:

    grim says:
    February 23, 2009 at 6:08 am
    From the APP: Some motor vehicle fees will go up later this year to cover costs

    Be forewarned: they are shutting down DMV centers. I forget, but the biggest one in the Parrispany area is finito and down here, the Eatontown one is el fcking gone-zo as soon as the lease expires….

  63. Stu says:

    ChiFi:

    Montclair’s inspection station (which ran by appointment only, which was the shiznit) was closed last year. All hail privatization. Wasn’t this a Whitman initiative?

  64. freedy says:

    at least bella knew it

  65. Clotpoll says:

    Barb (58)-

    Can’t be surprised that a bunch of liberal, NPR-loving wusses who read Pravda don’t think that actions have consequences. These are the same people that keep the NEA, gangster unions and politicians like Commissar Jon in power.

    The funny thing is, when everything goes Mad Max, these people will be the ones that their less-affluent brethren will turn on first. The proletariat and the gangsters know that these guys will be the easiest to rob and beat. Hell, they will probably enjoy it.

  66. chicagofinance says:

    Clotpoll says:
    February 23, 2009 at 8:22 am
    Cindy (21)- I think Mish or Seeking Alpha had a great article last week on how FDIC and DOT

    clot: My father-in-law’s quote….what is black, yellow and sleeps six?

    A: PennDOT truck….and the T is for transportation….

  67. chicagofinance says:

    grim says:
    February 23, 2009 at 8:26 am
    Although if you don’t enjoy the Mogambo Guru on a regular basis, I suggest it.

    grim: I suggest a serving of Bikram Yogurt…

  68. Clotpoll says:

    You won’t need a DMV to inspect anything when we’re all driving cars like this:

    http://tinyurl.com/bp38dx

    I’ll take mine with the machine gun turret option, please.

  69. chicagofinance says:

    Barbara says:
    February 23, 2009 at 8:48 am
    SG, I loved it right up until it went all Scarface.

    Babs: Haven’t seen it, but it is on my Netflix queue……..oh man, I would see it for that reason alone….I am a politcal prisoner from Cooba

  70. grim says:

    Be forewarned: they are shutting down DMV centers. I forget, but the biggest one in the Parrispany area is finito and down here, the Eatontown one is el fcking gone-zo as soon as the lease expires…

    The regional center in Wayne was shut down recently. DMV had something like 300k square feet there.

  71. Stu says:

    You don’t want the inflatable c*ck and blow-up doll kit?

    http://danphillips.com/personal/burning_man_2000/cars/images/phallus_car.jpg

  72. chicagofinance says:

    Sean says:
    February 23, 2009 at 9:00 am
    grim #56 in Mod.

    sean…if you are going to list all that, you have to offer…

  73. Barbara says:

    clot,
    I just wish they would express their anxieties in a positive way, if only for their state of mind. Hell, put a 20 spot in your dresser draw every week, make a list of things you will need for the next 24 months or so, then get them. Look at all your utilities and try and cut them back 30%. Take some control.

  74. Clotpoll says:

    These are the people who are going to finance our debt?

    Holy shit, Batman!

    BEIJING (AP) – Pig organs contaminated by a banned animal feed additive have been blamed for sickening at least 70 people in southern China, state media said Monday.
    The cases underscore a continuing battle with food safety in a country where supply chains are murky and the rising cost of labor, land and fuel sometimes force producers to cut corners in order to make a profit.

    Three people were in the hospital, while the rest were discharged after being treated for stomach aches and diarrhea over the weekend, the China Daily said.

    The pig organs tainted by the steroid clenbuterol were sold last week in markets in Guangzhou, the capital of Guangdong province, it said.

  75. Barbara says:

    72.
    ChiFi as a parent, brace yourself. I felt faint during a few scenes. They are haunting. Make sure the kiddo is in bed.

  76. Stu says:

    Everything is rosy in my neck of the woods. The suburban crime spree continues.

    Baristanet.com:
    Gas Station Attendant Killed In Verona
    Sunday, February 22, 2009

    Update: The victim was Daniel Pritchard, 29, a Boonton resident, formerly of Verona.

    In Verona, residents are reeling over an armed robbery that resulted in a homicide at a Sunoco gas station on Rte. 23 in Verona near Platinum Fitness. The gas station is owned by a Verona family; the name of the victim has not yet been released. A tipster adds the following…

    I was filling up at the BP on Broad St in Bloomfield just a short while ago when a police car pulled in to warn them about this incident. The attendant also mentioned to me that apparently a gas station on Bloomfield Ave in Bloomfield was held up within the last few days.

    Update: We’ve received unconfirmed reports of a shooting at a Chinese restaurant on Bloomfield Ave. in Montclair; police are looking for suspects in a red car headed in the direction of Glen Ridge. Helicopters from the incident in Verona are covering this area as well.

  77. NJGator says:

    73 – The Gator family has taken to going to East Orange for their DMV needs. 5 minute drive from the Bloomfield train station and if you show up 5 minutes before the doors open, you can get your DL and be out the door in 8 minutes. When I renewed my DL, I still managed to catch the 8:28 train from Bloomfield.

  78. chicagofinance says:

    Babs: thx

  79. lisoosh says:

    SG says:
    February 23, 2009 at 8:45 am

    “Also, I feel most US citizens would benefit viewing how many in 3rd world slums live and how much better they are off, even with 40% drop in dow.”

    A sentiment I agree with.

  80. grim says:

    From the Record:

    Slow-selling mega-mansions force builders to shift focus

    Believe it or not, New Jerseyans want smaller homes.

    The day of the 6,500-plus-square-foot mega-mansions that have dotted the North Jersey landscape in recent years may be over as new home buyers put living smaller and cheaper ahead of glitz.

    And as job losses mount, fewer people can afford the multimillion-dollar homes and builders are building smaller in response.

    “The largest market is the smallest homes,” said builder Michael Nebbia of Michael Angelo Builders in Hillsdale, who has gone from building 5,100-square-foot homes to more modest 4,600 ones and smaller. Others are building in the 3,000s.

    Jeffrey Otteau, president of Otteau Valuation Group in East Brunswick, which performs real estate valuation and forecasting on the state’s real estate trends, attributes the size decline to one thing: price.

    “This demonstrates that homebuyers in New Jersey are challenged to afford the price of homes, which today are the second highest in the country,” he said, adding it wasn’t going to change anytime soon because there are fewer high-paying jobs in the state that can support buying and maintaining homes that cost millions of dollars.

    The trend to build smaller is national as well. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, average square feet of single-family homes built in the Northeast in 2007 dropped to 2,550 from 2,612 the previous year.

  81. Barbara says:

    79.
    stu just read that.
    Sleepy little Verona…

  82. chicagofinance says:

    As we open the week, the doom men are an inspiration…..

    It’s the wrong plan,
    In the wrong hands,
    The wrong theory,
    For the wrong man.

    The wrong lies,
    On the wrong vibes,
    The wrong questions,
    With the wrong replies.

    I was marching to the wrong drum,
    With the wrong scum,
    Pissin’ out the wrong energy.

    Using all the wrong lines,
    And the wrong signs,
    With the wrong intensity.

    I was on the wrong page,
    Of the wrong book,
    With the wrong rendition,
    Of the wrong hook.

    TOO LONG!

  83. NJGator says:

    No worries, Stu and Barbara. They are now teaching Yoga at the Essex County Youth Detention Center. That will nip this little problem in the bud:

    Troubled Essex County youths learn yoga
    by Diane Herbst/For The Star-Ledger
    Sunday February 22, 2009, 9:27 PM
    Nine teenage boys in the private yoga class are lying face up on deep-blue mats, eyes closed.

    Their teacher, Jennifer Kohl, asks them to focus on a spot on the gymnasium floor and then stand up. She instructs them to stand on their left leg and bend their right leg up into a “V.” Says one of the teens — loudly — as he gets into position, “Check me out, baby!”

    This class is not Kohl’s usual cadre of suburban adults at her Montclair yoga studio.

    Kohl is creator of a unique yoga program at the Essex County Juvenile Detention Center in Newark. There, she volunteers to teach a weekly class to some of the 150 detainees being held on a variety of charges.

    From the gentle demeanor of the boys posing in downward dog yoga position, it’s difficult to imagine them committing crimes, which range from drug dealing to the more violent.

    “They’re good kids. They’re good people like you and me. They made some choices that weren’t so great,” Kohl said.

    When Kohl, 41, volunteered her services, detention center officials liked the idea of the Zen-like exercises leading to introspection by some detainees, perhaps even helping them turn their lives around. Although the program is voluntary, many inmates participate.

    “At first I didn’t want to do it because it was yoga,” said an 18-year-old whose identity could not be released due to privacy concerns. “Now I think it’s good. It brings you one with yourself.”

    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/downwardfacing_youths_learn_to.html

  84. Barbara says:

    the local thugs here leave the gas station stores alone. These stations are run by well organizes seiks who will not bother calling police if you F with them. They will hunt you down and take care of it.
    Nice people BTW, I always feel safe at those stations.

  85. ruggles says:

    83 – “The largest market is the smallest homes,” said builder Michael Nebbia of Michael Angelo Builders in Hillsdale, who has gone from building 5,100-square-foot homes to more modest 4,600 ones and smaller.

    What moron thinks 4600 sq feet is a modest home? that’s 3 good size condos. I think the most desirable homes going forward will be those where every room is used daily, and maybe there’s 1 or 2 extra rooms max that the family expands into when necessary (like a rec room or sun porch).

  86. Clotpoll says:

    I’m beginning to think my choice of a Mossberg 500 was spot on. Git your gat, folks; they can’t keep these kids in jail forever:

    “They’re good kids. They’re good people like you and me. They made some choices that weren’t so great,” Kohl said.

  87. Stu says:

    SA:
    Luxury Manhattan Real Estate Could Fall Another 50% – Barron’s

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/121917-luxury-manhattan-real-estate-could-fall-another-50-barron-s


    SA Editor
    Judy Weil
    Add to Your WatchlistAbout this author:

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    “Even Barron’s, which forecast in November a New York real estate decline, seems surprised by the velocity of NYC’s luxury market crash. Sales were down 40% while prices declined 20% in Q408. Look out, says Barron’s Leslie P. Norton: High end NYC apartments and townhouses could fall by another 30%-50% and recovery will be protracted.”

  88. Clotpoll says:

    Babs-

    Shoot ’em all and let God sort ’em out later.

  89. Clotpoll says:

    16.68 to the bi-muzzle.

  90. All Hype says:

    Clot (89):

    That is a hellava gun. I was looking at the Scattergun Technologies and Remington shotguns but your gun looks like a winner.

  91. kettle1 says:

    Clot 71,

    you might enjoy one of these

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRAP_(armored_vehicle)

  92. PGC says:

    I can’t believe the number of DMV centers in the suburbs. After years of fighting through the joys of Jersey City, it was a shocking to come to the burbs to find them all over the place in small towns. Wyckoff and Oakland are less than a 15 min drive from both Wayne and Lodi.

  93. Barbara says:

    88
    ruggles
    3,000 sq ft is downright palatial to me, lol

  94. Stu says:

    “3,000 sq ft is downright palatial to me, lol”

    You could say that again.

  95. pricedOut says:

    I received this via email this a.m.:

    Shortly after class, an economics student approaches his economics professor and says,

    “I don’t understand this stimulus bill. Can you explain it to me?”

    The professor replied, “I don’t have any time to explain it at my office, but if you come over to my house on Saturday and help me with my weekend project, I’ll be glad to explain it to you.” The student agreed.

    At the agreed-upon time, the student showed up at the professor’s house. The professor stated that the weekend project involved his backyard pool.

    They both went out back to the pool, and the professor handed the student a bucket. Demonstrating with his own bucket, the professor said, “First, go over to the deep end, and fill your bucket with as much water as you can.” The student did as he was instructed.

    The professor then continued, “Follow me over to the shallow end, and then dump all the water from your bucket into it.”

    The student was naturally confused, but did as he was told.

    The professor then explained they were going to do this many more times, and began walking back to the deep end of the pool.

    The confused student asked, “Excuse me, but why are we doing this?”

    The professor matter-of-factly stated that he was trying to make the shallow end much deeper.

    The student didn’t think the economics professor was serious, but figured that he would find out the real story soon enough.

    However, after the 6th trip between the deep end and the shallow end, the student began to become worried that his economics professor had gone mad.

    The student finally replied, “All we’re doing is wasting valuable time and effort on unproductive pursuits. Even worse, when this process is all over, everything will be at the same level it was before, so all you’ll really have accomplished is the destruction of what could have been truly productive action!”

    The professor put down his bucket and replied with a smile, “Congratulations. You now understand the stimulus bill.

  96. Stu says:

    Clot (92): Did you catch this from last night?

    ” Frank says:
    February 22, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    U.S. Eyes Large Stake in Citi
    Taxpayers Could Own Up to 40% of Bank’s Common Stock, Diluting Value of Shares

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123535148618845005.html

    SRS will be in the 50s tomorrow.”

    And this guy works at a hedge fund? Yeah, I believe that. And don’t forget the damned straw and some ketchups. Pull up to the 2nd window please.

  97. Sean says:

    Clot – your favorite GGP is defaulting on loans now.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINN2050986920090221?rpc=44

  98. make money says:

    Clot (77),

    These are the first stuggles of Capitalism. We also went through this a few hundred years ago.

    They’re on the right track at least.

  99. Stu says:

    Sean: DDR had an interesting snip-it with their earnings. Maintain REIT status?

    “The Co intends to limit the aggregate amount of cash payable to shareholders in the dividend to 10% of the total dividend paid. This new payout initiative is a part of the Co’s strategy to further enhance liquidity and maximize free cash flow and maintain its REIT status.”

  100. SG says:

    On Sqft topic,

    I grew up in 500 sqft with 10 family members. It included 1 bedroom, 1 bath, kitchen and living room, that’s all for 10 people.

    Yeah Right, 3000 sqft for four is modest home !!!

    At this junction, I feel, US is really going down the drain. People want to live like Kings, but don’t want to work hard to pay for it. I really don’t understand why China, India etc.. are even buying US treasuries. They would be better off, getting the current market price for US currency, as it is going to go down so quickly.

  101. Stu says:

    Stu’s Cheapo deal of the day:

    Free Quiznos sub.

    http://www.millionsubs.com/index.php

  102. make money says:

    93 Kettle,

    Can you buy one of those vehicles? Watch 50 cents pimp one of those on his next video and put some rims on it.

  103. make money says:

    SG,

    We’re the bully. They will give us their lunch money if they want to live.

    The problems come up when we exaust their resources also. When we squander all their savings too.

    We will blame them for everything and then go to a patriotic war agaist surplus nations.

  104. zieba says:

    Stu,
    You beat me to it.
    fatwallet or slickdeals?

  105. BC Bob says:

    “And this guy works at a hedge fund?”

    Stu [98],

    And other times he is a NJ state employee?

  106. kettle1 says:

    make,

    if you head over to iraq or Afghanistan, i sure you could get one for the right amount of shiny yellow stuff. everything has a price.

  107. All Hype says:

    Well that was a short rally this morning….Mr. Market wants real results and not WSJ story plants by Citi.

  108. chicagofinance says:

    February 12, 2009, 12:39 pm
    Diamond, Kashyap, and Rajan on the Geithner Plan
    By Steven D. Levitt
    University of Chicago Professors Douglas Diamond and Anil Kashyap, whose description of the causes of the financial crisis is the most widely circulated post ever to appear on this blog, are back to explain the Geithner Plan in simple-to-understand terms, along with what they do and don’t like about it.

    For this post, they’ve also drafted highly respected Chicago economist Raghuram Rajan, former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund.

    Decoding the Geithner Plan
    By Douglas Diamond, Anil Kashyap, and Raghuram Rajan
    A Guest Post

    Timothy Geithner has announced his intention of making a full-scale attack on the nation’s banking problems.

    Clearly, the objective of making banks willing to lend again — with them paying due, but not excessive, attention to risks — is the right one. To achieve this, not only do banks have to be confident about their own financial health, they have to feel that there are no more pennies waiting to drop and that the system is stable enough that asset prices will not fall significantly, so that they can start locking their money up in term loans.

    “The plan should be evaluated not just on what it proposes, but on what it does not touch.”
    The Geithner Plan to stabilize the system should be judged according to whether it meets the test of the four C’s: being comprehensive, clear, cost-effective, and credible.

    Geithner’s plan has four elements. First, it seeks to audit banks and measure how much capital they will need, with an offer to invest government money in the preferred stock of banks that cannot raise private capital.

    Presumably, the government will close down unviable banks, but we do not know how tough regulators will be. Moreover, the government seems to want to avoid roiling existing shareholders and bond-holders by talking about closure or announcing its intentions about sharing losses, but this creates substantial uncertainty in the market. It is important that this phase of the plan be effected quickly, with some burden-sharing with existing investors where necessary, to restore clarity and reduce costs to the taxpayer.

    Second, the plan seeks to buy toxic assets from banks through a public-private partnership, thus freeing banks to raise new capital without new investors being worried about getting saddled with further losses. This is the murkiest part of the plan; there is little trade in these “legacy” assets partly because private investors are unsure about the size of potential losses they will have to bear if they buy these assets, while banks are unwilling to sell at the prices on offer. Investors will want to know what share of the losses the government will bear before they participate. And the government will have to determine what fraction of the upside it will need so that the deal is fair. Too little upside and the taxpayer will end up subsidizing private investors, too much and the government will elicit little private participation.

    The public-private partnership does not absolve the government of assessing, pricing, and sharing the risk in these assets, and there is far too little clarity on how this will be done. A comprehensive plan must tackle these issues and show that there are sufficient resources available to resolve the uncertainty. A good first step would be to share reasoning used to determine the size of this program so as to build confidence that the plan can succeed.

    Third, Federal Reserve programs to purchase securities issued against packages of loans (such as student loans, auto loans, and commercial real estate) will be expanded from $200 billion to $1 trillion. This will clearly encourage banks to make such loans, because they know they can securitize them; and it can help boost lending, provided there are enough credit-worthy borrowers.

    Finally, the plan praises efforts to help home owners; yet there is little in the initial proposal that suggests any dramatic new initiatives. Perhaps this is appropriate, for other than facilitating the restructuring of mortgages when both borrower and lender are willing, many of the extant proposals seem to attempt to postpone the inevitable adjustment of house prices.

    The plan should be evaluated not just on what it proposes, but on what it does not touch. For instance, while there have been many calls to impose lending requirements on banks that take public money, such requirements would be crude, and they may create more risk for taxpayers as banks are forced into unwise decisions. The plan takes an intermediate (and appropriately balanced) approach by requiring more transparency about bank actions while not mandating lending. It also takes long-overdue actions — like banning banks that take public money from paying dividends.

    As a whole then, the plan takes important steps in the right direction, but it is unclear in critical aspects. We do not know whether this is because the Treasury cannot afford to be too clear, or whether it is because the Treasury still has little idea about what to do. The coming days will tell.

    Finally, the plan will need public and political support to be credible. This means that bankers and existing investors should not be seen as benefiting at the expense of the taxpayer, and that all the government investment should start paying off in the not-too-distant future. While the Treasury has resisted the urge to ceremonially sacrifice the bankers, this makes it even more imperative that President Obama’s political skills be used to sell the plan.

  109. 3b says:

    #90 Stu: There was a small article in yesterday’s Record, regarding declines in NYC Wall St emloyment revenue (I do not have a link)

    Mayor Bllomebrg is quoted as stating that more than 50% of all Wall St jobs pay 100k or less a year.

    Something I have been trying to bang into John’s head when he starts with everybody on the street makes 200K or more a year.

  110. Kapoom says:

    Head chopping at 85 Broad St on Wed.

  111. All Hype says:

    Head chopping at 85 Broad St on Wed.

    …………….
    What company is it?

  112. Stu says:

    “fatwallet or slickdeals?”

    Dealnews ;)

  113. Stu says:

    “What company is it?”

    Why that’s Goldman!

  114. John says:

    Cool, part of reason is maiden lane, lease which is old nat west building that was sublet to GS. The lease is up and GS is moving the people in that building to a cheaper NJ location. Expensive to move cubes and office, rather than move people who may be gone by year end better to just cut them loose now before any more good money is thrown after bad. Prune that dead wood GS, you go girl.

    Kapoom says:
    February 23, 2009 at 10:25 am
    Head chopping at 85 Broad St on Wed.

  115. Stu says:

    SRS muzzle down to 12.68 (here we go again).

  116. ithink ithink says:

    anecdotal weekend stuff.

    Wife & I sat in the car saturday morning drinking coffee at 8:45am watching a 20+ crowd shiver outside the front door of an estate sale not set to open until 9am. They advertised without the use of photos too. We normally would only see this kind of crowd on a dewy May morning in an area where the curious neighbors could walk over & get a sneak-peak months prior to the open house. Not much to look at & overpriced. $2 a record firm; nobody wants that Belafonte record but me you dumbass boomer.

    The wood-look toilet seats, except oak, are all being discontinued at Lowe’s & Home Depot. Countertop vanitys for the bath are back in. The glass sink can still be found in the clearance aisle or over at the discounter stores in the towel aisle. The same sku at Expo can be found marked down further at the Home Depot.

    Combed hair-sprayed waves, perms, & mom jeans are making a vicious comeback.

    Sunday it looked like neighbors down the other end of the street were moving back in. Not sure what exactly got worked-out (the for sale sign was still up) but the kids looked so happy running around the yard.

    Had a tomato from Bardy farms in Warren, NJ that wasn’t forced (chemical) ripened. Now that’s what I call a spring market!

  117. Stu says:

    Hope some Citi holders got out at $2.40. That number will probably never be visited again.

  118. Clotpoll says:

    Stu (96)-

    That’s my definition of a 4-family of the future.

  119. comrade nom deplume says:

    Just a thought:

    If the Treasury takes a 40% stake in Citi, will they have to apply to the Federal Reserve under Section 3 of the Bank Holding Company Act to become a bank holding company???

  120. Clotpoll says:

    Stu (98)-

    Yeah, I caught it. Unbelievable.

    I hope Frank is short SRS/long FAS on margin. If there is a God and there is justice on earth, this will be the case.

  121. Clotpoll says:

    Sean (99)-

    Wow. There’s a real surprise.

    [sarcasm off…yawn]

  122. Stu says:

    Clot: If I have to move in with my parents, it is gonna be pretty funny. They are snowbirds and their cold weather home, which now also houses my grandmother, is slightly larger than a shoebox. On the bright side, the clubhouse has excellent subsidized shows from yesteryear. Think Martha Ray and Don Rickles.

    Oy vey!

  123. scribe says:

    Hey, SAS

    I want to go to your presentation, too.

    Maybe this could be our next gtg?

  124. Clotpoll says:

    Sean (99)-

    When SPG starts defaulting, things will really get juicy.

    BTW, this WILL happen.

  125. chicagofinance says:

    Natalie says….you look as if you work at a Hasidic meth lab……
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pflgMxxBPuY

  126. Clotpoll says:

    make (100)-

    I’d feel better if they could get that freedom of speech and rule of law thingy better.

  127. John says:

    Well as unbelievable this may sound. I have swore off checking real estate values, blogging on real estate and buying or selling stocks or bonds for all of lent. I am a little too obsessed with micro moves, maybe a six week break would be helpful. Any cash I get during lent will go into bank or into pre-paying off mortgage. Plus I am way way too long my positions but the bid ask is wide and long term nothing has changed so no point selling. Plus I am really not out anything. But I did a heck of a lot of trading to be out nothing and slightly ahead, sure I beat the market, but then again, doing nothing would have beat the market. As long as interest keeps pouring in and as long as I have a mortgage to pay off might as well throw it there for a few weeks.

    I give BC Bob credit his pounding gloom and doom for so long is a little scary. I will look at my statements once a day, but that is it. This checking all the time stuff goes against my ignorance is bliss enjoyment of life theory.

    Well still have two more days to rant and rave so I better enjoy it.

  128. Pat says:

    If you do shack up at the senior estates, you truly need that bright blue suit pictured on cl.

    Thanks for lunch, btw. I’m heading down to civilization right now.

  129. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    “I hope Frank is short SRS/long FAS on margin. If there is a God and there is justice on earth, this will be the case.”

    Amen brother. Still don’t see how a further C bailout helps the imploding commercial real estate sector. It’s like you neighbor getting a heart trasnplant while your house is burning down. It’s nice, doesn’t do sh*t for your house though.

  130. kettle1 says:

    Nom,

    stop asking silly questions. have you forgotten the golden rule already?

  131. Stu says:

    Muzzle at 11.

  132. Clotpoll says:

    February 23, 2009 at 7:17 am

    Clotpoll,

    Thanks for the SRS idea, with some SRS puts and few thousand shares of FAS you are going to make me rich today.

    I’d let bi roam unmuzzled, if only God will allow me to see the above-quoted fool carried out on his shield.

  133. Clotpoll says:

    Frank,

    Might as well keep the Benz you bought on Friday with all your “winnings”. If you play it right, the repo guy probably won’t find you for 5-6 weeks.

  134. Sean says:

    Humm I wonder what the NYC Taxi Medallion is worth on the Maltz auction?

    Someone paid about 600k for one in 2007 the going rate in 2004 was about 300k and the going rate way back in 1985 was about 70k.

  135. BC Bob says:

    John [129],

    I agree. I’m going to the beach.

  136. Stu says:

    I’m profiting handsomely from the fact that markets keep going down, but I can’t believe how lost this administration truly is.

    On Friday to stop the pain, they reassure the public that there will not be a nationalization of the banks. Then Sunday night at 11:30pm, they talk about nationalizing 40% of C. Everyone knows that these depressions are caused by a lack of confidence. What kind of message are these morons in the white house sending with so many mixed messages. From my standpoint, the only one who has made any sense is Volcker. Too bad, no one’s listening. Poor us.

  137. DL says:

    NJGator , Ref 80: I have been neither renewed nor gotten out of any door in 8 minutes :-)

    “The Gator family has taken to going to East Orange for their DMV needs. 5 minute drive from the Bloomfield train station and if you show up 5 minutes before the doors open, you can get your DL and be out the door in 8 minutes. When I renewed my DL, I still managed to catch the 8:28 train from Bloomfield.”

  138. Stu says:

    “The Gator family has taken to going to East Orange for their DMV needs.”

    And the surroundings are so refreshing at this office.

  139. Stu says:

    GE $8.89.

    3rd in line behind C and BAC? Yup, we’ll be nationalizing them too.

    http://www.displays2go.com/product.asp?ID=4800

  140. kettle1 says:

    Stu,

    the fun part of trying to nationalize any of these companies is how to handle the debt. The US government risks a treasury dislocation if it attempts to take on those debts.

    If it wipes out the debt holders then TSHTF partially due to the fact that a large % of those debts are ultimately held by foriegn investors.

    Any solution requires a further step downward which the government is trying to avoid at all costs.

    The only option in the end is to wipe out the debt holders and restructure the system. RTC 2.0 But good luck funding trillion dollar deficits after doing that.

  141. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Kettle,

    Hate to be the O’man. Only way you balance that account out is to be the guy who ends the social welfare programs AND the military empire, and there’s certain elements of the establishment that aren’t going to let that happen.

  142. danzud says:

    I looked at the for sale section in the Star Ledger for the first time in a while on Sunday. I don’t usually buy the Ledger but I wanted to know NJ district wrestling results.

    I saw in Montclair that a Siena apartment was for sale at $616,000. I looked it up on the website. 2 bed/2 bath 1250 square feet. What a bargain!!!!!!!! And who cares about Montclair taxes either.

    I mean, for god’s sake, there’s a Starbucks and a gym downstairs. That itself must be worth what, one two hundred k?

  143. chicagofinance says:

    Lost: there is a video…it’s more of a short film and has nothing to do with the song…..very clot-esque….

  144. John says:

    FYI – Sunday March 29th at 1:10pm is the first game at Shea. St. John’s is playing Georgetown. Tickets go on sale March 2nd at mets.com and are only $5 dollars.

  145. Essex says:

    geezus….don’t any of you people work?

  146. Sean says:

    re: #148 Essex on the little people work, and pay taxes.

  147. Shore Guy says:

    “bad-driver programs”

    The cost of these, as well as insurance and license surcharges for those who earn the title “bad driver” SHOULD go up; it might eventually discourage some of the nonsense one sees on the Parkway, Turnpike, 287, 80, etc. You want to drive like a friggen maniac? Pay for doing so.

  148. NJGator says:

    141 Stu – Look at the bright side. With the state eliminating evening hours, you can only experience it in daylight now.

  149. Shore Guy says:

    Jeeze,

    I leave the country (without phone or net access for two weeks) and the economy has not been fixxed yet. What gives? B.O. has been in charge for a few weeks now and I figured all would be well with the world. I may need to head back to C.A. At least it was warm there.

  150. NJGator says:

    danzud 145 – Where in the building is it? While still outrageously priced, it might very well represent a big price decline. I have friends that paid almost 600k for a 2BR on a low floor with a bad view. This might be one of the “premier” units.

    It was built like crap though and I wouldn’t buy one at any price. Said friend actually sent me video of all the windows and sliding doors leaking in his unit after the first rainstorm that occurred after his closing.

  151. danzud says:

    It was on the 5th floor.

  152. NJGator says:

    154 – Terrace facing east or west? West was cheaper.

  153. Shore Guy says:

    “the fun part of trying to nationalize any of these companies is how to handle the debt. The US government risks a treasury dislocation if it attempts to take on those debts.

    If it wipes out the debt holders then TSHTF partially due to the fact that a large % of those debts are ultimately held by foriegn investors.”

    B.O. Has his ‘nads in the proverbial wringer. We cannot take-on the debt to prevent the companies from going under and foreigners abandoning investing in U.S. companies. But, if we first let the companies fail and the take them over after the debt has been eliminated we still end up with a situation where we may encourage foreign investors to abandon investing here, for the short term anyway. Inasmuch as the results are likely similar, it may be time to take some castor oil and let the firms fail. Better to sweep-in quickly without any debt acquisition if the results are substantially similar.

  154. Shore Guy says:

    “NJGator says:
    February 23, 2009 at 11:34 am
    141 Stu – Look at the bright side. With the state eliminating evening hours, you can only experience it in daylight now.”

    Indeed, Stu. But, just watch out whenthey tell you that it is rain falling on your head; it might not be.

  155. schabadoo says:

    Giving an Oscar to a guy who was hopped up while acting on oxycodone, hydrocodone, diazepam, temazepam, alprazolam and doxylamine? What a role model.

    God I hope you’re being sarcastic…

  156. schabadoo says:

    Giving an Oscar to a guy who was hopped up while acting on oxy***, *, *, *, ***mine? What a role model.

    God I hope you’re being sarcastic…

  157. Sean says:

    Chaos after crowds swarm Fort Lauderdale street for housing help.

    FORT LAUDERDALE – Thousands of people seeking government-subsidized housing packed the street Saturday morning in front of the Robert P. Kelly Housing Authority building until police shut down the line because the crowd had grown unmanageable.

    Officials estimated that 4,500 people were waiting in line at 8 a.m. when the Housing Authority of Fort Lauderdale Is your Fort Lauderdale restaurant clean? – Click Here. began distributing the 3,000 available applications for Section 8 housing, a federal program that provides rent subsidies to landlords to help low-income people find affordable housing.

    http://www.sun-sentinel.com/community/news/fort_lauderdale/sfl-flbhousing0222sbfeb22,0,4560185.story

  158. kettle1 says:

    U.S. Pledges Capital for Banks as Stress Tests Begin (Update1)

    Feb. 23 (Bloomberg) — U.S. financial regulators pledged to inject additional funds into the nation’s major banks to prevent their collapse and will this week begin examinations to determine if they have enough capital.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a0XfqNIA7KA4&refer=home

    For Regions it would be 69%

    For Fifth Third it would be 83%

    For Citi it would be 5 times the Cap value or 85%

  159. sastry says:

    #158… we are all commie, homo-loving sons of guns…

  160. God I hope you’re being sarcastic…

    Surely the only worthwile artists are sober ones…

    /puts down his copy of Post Office

  161. kettle1 says:

    hey guys, cut the gloom and doom already, the recovery is here!!! party at franks house!

    End of the Recession in 2009

    The Fed’s data show that the recession probability peaked during the October 2007 to April 2008 period at around 35-40%, and has been declining since then to less than 10% for December 2008 and January 2009. Looking forward through 2009, the Fed’s model shows a recession probability of only about 1% on average through the next 12 months, and below 1% by the end of the year (.82% by January 2010). The Treasury spread has been above 2% for the last 11 months, a pattern consistent with the economic recoveries after the 1990-1991 and 2001 recessions.

    http://seekingalpha.com/article/118339-end-of-the-recession-in-2009

  162. Sean says:

    re: #158 schabadoo – not being sarcastic at all, the man was a regular user of cocaine and heroin has been since at least 2006. He was high on all kinds of drugs on the set when this movie was filmed. What a freaking role model….

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/01312008/gossip/pagesix/michelle_booted_doped_heath_964037.htm

  163. 3b says:

    #163 kettle: Surely these clowns must be choking.

    And did not the recession officially start in December of 2007?

    Was October 07 the pre-game recession?

  164. NY Post article on a judge forcing lien holders in the foreclosure process to prove they own the mortgage.
    This has been discussed a bit on the board. It should be interesting to see how widespread this becomes and how successful.

  165. Shore Guy says:

    “Some Democrats and Republicans privately say the best option may be failure. The rough scenario is fiscal insolvency, followed perhaps by federal receivership. No precedent or legal avenue exists for a state to reorganize its affairs under a form of Chapter 11 protection, but that striking suggestion sounds better by the day.”

    This is from the WSJ article on Cali. As uncomfortable as this may make many, the fact that we may be at a point when we are talking about REAL pain — the kind that comes from the kinds of actions that actually help fix problems — may be a good thing. We can’t afford everything we used to afford, and we better get used to it, at least ultil we have paid-off our debts.

  166. kettle1 says:

    shore

    lets nationalize GE, shouldnt be a problem:

    Short term GE debt – $193,650,000,000
    Long term GE debt – $300,067,000,000

  167. hirono says:

    Only 14 post to a mention of firearms.
    What kind of fantasies are you folks cultivating. Liked this post by one of the literate fantasists Clotpol:
    Can’t be surprised that a bunch of liberal, NPR-loving wusses who read Pravda don’t think that actions have consequences. These are the same people that keep the NEA, gangster unions and politicians like Commissar Jon in power.

    The funny thing is, when everything goes Mad Max, these people will be the ones that their less-affluent brethren will turn on first. The proletariat and the gangsters know that these guys will be the easiest to rob and beat. Hell, they will probably enjoy it.

    Clot I invite you and your fellow fantasist to read this post by a fellow who acted on his convictions:

    http://web.knoxnews.com/pdf/021009church-manifesto.pdf

    He had the same problem with so called liberals that you seem to have.
    He shot up a “liberal” church in Knoxville, Tenn.
    I ask you: was this the hero that you’re dreaming of? Are you a coward because you dream of such things but do nothing but bloviate on such matters on a real estate blog of all places?

    Rhetoric like yours if part of the problem, your pithy dreams of revenge on so called liberals and NPR type are sociopathic. Complain, complain, complain and offer nothing constructive, just dreams of guns and ammo and revenge.

    I urge all you other hardy individualists to read this. Despite you tough fantasist talk, I doubt you’d last five minutes if you fantasies came true…

  168. kettle1 says:

    3b 165,

    well the author has a PhD, he must know what he’s talking about. Besides isnt unemployment a lagging indicator???

  169. Stu says:

    “We can’t afford everything we used to afford, and we better get used to it, at least ultil we have paid-off our debts.”

    Can’t we just get a loan from our parents?

  170. Shore Guy says:

    “Think Martha Ray and Don Rickles.”

    Stu,

    I just LOVE the Vandellas. Especially in the summertime. Oops, wrong Martha. lol

  171. Shore Guy says:

    “Can’t we just get a loan from our parents?”

    It looks like the trust fund is empty and we all need to go back to work for awhile.

  172. make money says:

    toshiro_mifune (165),

    If they can’t prove that they own the mortgage then why should the rose lady pay?

    It’s a free house for the borrower and a lesson learned that you need to actually have a back office in order to run a business.

  173. Shore Guy says:

    It looks like Cuomo may have figured out that the path to the Governor’s Mansion runs straight through “Throw-some-bankers-in-jail Land.”

  174. kettle1 says:

    hirono

    i believe you have posted that comment before almost word for word. you seem to assume n aweful lot in your comment their.

    most people on this blog dont want to see people suffer, they only want people to act responsibly and stop demanding to be coddled by TPTB.

    AT this point that ends up in a significant amount of pain for everyone. Actually it doesnt matter what they do at this point pain is a given.

    you might find your time better spent elsewhere as you will not find many converts here

  175. schabadoo says:

    Sean: not being sarcastic at all

    That’s sad.

    I’d love to see your list of acceptable artists.

    Me? I like to judge a performance by its performance. Janice, Jimi, Van Gogh…loved them.

    What a freaking role model….

    ?

    Who in this world would look to actors to pattern their life?

    This sounds dangerously like those people ‘disappointed’ in Phelps.

  176. kettle1 says:

    if we want joe sixpaxk to held accountable then so should the banks. if they screwed up and cant produce the required documents to bad for the banks

  177. danzud says:

    Gator,

    I recall the number as 513or 514. Didn’t mention NYC view in the ad though.

  178. #174 – If they can’t prove that they own the mortgage then why should the rose lady pay?

    She shouldn’t; I agree with the judge.
    If this helps to stomp mudholes in the corpse of mortgage securitization I fully support it.
    I also support mortgage holders being able to evict people it has foreclosed upon, as long as they can prove they hold the note…
    Hopefully this woman can at least pay the taxes on her free house.

  179. Shore Guy says:

    From CNBC frontpage: “Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner is preparing to release more details of his bank bailout plan early next week, according to a source familiar with the talks.”

    Is it something like: Run! Run for your lives!!

  180. if we want joe sixpaxk to held accountable then so should the banks.

    Agreed. Dumb mortgage schemes are knives that cut both ways.

  181. Shore Guy says:

    For those of us who have been scouting C.A. locations for the next gtg, has anyone here gotten crunched by the economic wringer or purchased any land or housing the past couple weeks?

  182. Shore Guy says:

    “Hopefully this woman can at least pay the taxes on her free house.”

    If she put nothing down and then made one $2,000 payment, does that make the new taxable value $2,000? Lol.

  183. kettle1 says:

    shore guy,

    that was nice of him to alert us, so that we can load up on shorts. heck with the S&P at 755, this could be a wild week.

  184. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    When the revolution comes they typically go after the wealthy and the politicians. It’s a fact.

    If you are a hoarder you better get some protection, doesn’t need to be firearms, guard dog, dual use items work too ;) It’s surprising all the wood chopping you might need to do in an urban setting, or the baseball bat swinging practice.

  185. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Timmay is a trial balloon floating machine!

  186. kettle1 says:

    clot,

    how the riots start?

    South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

    Chaos after crowds swarm Fort Lauderdale street for housing help

    Thousands try to apply; police shut down line

    By Andrew Ba Tran

    South Florida Sun-Sentinel

    February 22, 2009

    FORT LAUDERDALE

    Thousands of people seeking government-subsidized housing packed the street Saturday morning in front of the Robert P. Kelly Housing Authority building until police shut down the line because the crowd had grown unmanageable.

    Officials estimated that 4,500 people were waiting in line at 8 a.m. when the Housing Authority of Fort Lauderdale began distributing the 3,000 available applications for Section 8 housing, a federal program that provides rent subsidies to landlords to help low-income people find affordable housing.

    But the application process was shut down earlier than expected because of the overwhelming turnout, police spokesman Sgt. Frank Sousa said.

    “It was a much larger crowd than anticipated,” he said, adding he was unsure if all the applications had been distributed.

    Though the crowd grew unruly, only one person was arrested for trespassing, Sousa said. He had no details.

    Outside the Housing Authority building at Sunrise Boulevard and Northwest Fifth Avenue, discarded blankets, fast-food containers and plastic chairs littered the curb where thousands had gathered.

  187. Clotpoll says:

    dan (154)-

    Too low. A jumper can’t be assured of instant death from that height.

  188. hirono says:

    Ket1

    Your are correct.
    I did post a similar link a few days ago in frustration of all the gun fantasies posted here.
    I will not convert people and that is not my intention.
    The point is, in my opinion, that the screed written by the fellow who killed two people at the Universalist Unitarian Church in Knoxville and the fantasies posted by some of the folks on this blog share striking similarities in both content (blaming “the vast liberal conspiracy”) and tone.

    I urge you and others to read the words of this man and compare it to the rhetoric posted here and used by certain “mainstream” voices elsewhere.

    http://web.knoxnews.com/pdf/021009church-manifesto.pdf

    Thank you for your consideration.

  189. W8TING says:

    Does anybody know anything about Valley Brook Court in Lyndhurst NJ. These units have been sitting on the market for over a year now. I walk by it everyday and do not see a single car parked in the complex.

    http://74.92.65.109/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6172

  190. Hubba says:

    Maybe there are people who are legitimately fed up with corrupt govt taking money and opportunity from them and giving it to their friends. So what. If they toss some supersonic lead your way, perhaps it is deserved.

  191. danzud says:

    W8TING,

    They used to advertise on the weekends outside my complex but stoppped. Those big signs are still there but I think last year they wanted $500+ for 2 bed/2bath because we all know Lyndhurst is the next Montclair/Millburn/Summit/Westfield. I mean, it’s in Bergen county, right?

    After drinking last Friday at Wee Willy’s up the street, trust me, those puppies ain’t selling anytime soon.

  192. wallies says:

    Re IOUSA movie:

    I actually liked the movie itself and some of the information presented…however, the live chat at the end with the geriatic bigwigs really turned me off…especially when Warren Buffet said something to the effect of “The American people will just produce more…” I left at that point, couldn’t listen to any more of that drivel.

  193. scribe says:

    That woman in the NY Post and her free house:

    Property taxes in NYC on a SFH are typically around $1500 a year.

    That one – probably less.

    If she is paying her property taxes, her effective rent is $100 to $100-plus a month.

    Did anyone else notice the splitting seam on the side of the second floor?

  194. kettle1 says:

    wallies,

    i agree about the IOUSA Q&A. I felt WB was very disingenuous at best. he was asked, wouldnt we see a bad economic recession is we stopped spending. Warren B responded by saying alng the lines of no, the American people will prevail…

    they seemed very careful about ow they worded their answers. And i will agree with SAS that the Q&A part seemed heavy on the propoganda

  195. make money says:

    Can we see DOW with a 6 handle by weeks end or will Timmy G finally put a PPT team together?

    Timmy makes the announcment, “Our PPT is now well capitalized”

    Clot immediately doubles down on SKF and SRS.

  196. Nicholas says:

    At the rate we are going we will see the DOW with a six handle tonight.

  197. NJGator says:

    Clot 189 – Nothing at the Siena meets those standards. Better off going to the new building directly adjacent to the Bay Street Station. Building also not high enough, but at least you can jump in front of an oncoming train.

  198. W8TING says:

    danzud – I did a little more digging and found an article that talked about the first buyers into VBC. I did a quick property tax search and found out the buyers purchased a for $585k and pay $8,195 in annual property taxes. Ridiculous…

    Link to article
    http://74.92.65.109/modules.php?sid=7766&file=article&name=News

  199. make money says:

    As far as the property taxes and the NY post lady,

    Maybe she will challege NYC to prove that the house is in Brooklyn?

  200. NJGator says:

    43 cents to Bi Muzzle.

  201. sas says:

    Thur night:

    “Economic Gangsters”
    http://tinyurl.com/c24kht

    SAS

  202. #204 – Ahh, I see it closed under $1 on Fri. I’ll have to check NYSE rules on delisting.

  203. DL says:

    First $15B of “stimulus” to be released will go to shore up medicade. How’s that for job creation? Shovel ready bureaucracy at work.

  204. Shore Guy says:

    Tosh,

    Isn’t it something like 30 days below $1?

  205. Clotpoll says:

    hirono (169)-

    Excuse me, turdblossom, but where have I mentioned revenge or attacking ANYONE other than the actual, criminal gubmint of the USSA in any post I have ever made here?

    I don’t have any desire to attack any fellow citizen, no matter what his persuasion. In fact, as I discussed yesterday, I don’t think the vast majority of people who are underwater financially are guilty of anything more than making a mistake. Financial problems are a sign of bad decision-making, not moral failure.

    I do advocate an overthrow of the gubmint, which IS my idea of a good start to solving many of our current problems, as the gubmint is currently controlled by corrupt interests and filled with people who completely deny the severity of the problems that exist.

  206. Clotpoll says:

    hirono (169)-

    Don’t underestimate my toughness, either. I grew up on a farm and spent every Summer tossing bales of hay and pregnancy-testing cows in 100-degree heat.

    If you don’t know how cows are pregnancy-tested, ask a vet. It ain’t pretty.

  207. 3b says:

    #170 kettle: I guess they forgot about that.

  208. Isn’t it something like 30 days below $1?
    I know NASDAQ definately uses that (I remember the countdwns after the dotcom bust) I don’t remember if NYSE follows the same or not.

  209. danzud says:

    Clot,

    But if they jump, they can’t pick up their $4 Starbucks coffee in the moring. I mean, it’s downstairs. The place must be worth $700k easily and good for the owners to gladly pay that jacked up prop tax on it too.

  210. Clotpoll says:

    vodka (188)-

    I think heat + large crowd = riot

    You don’t need a reason, just those two elements.

    Wait ’til the weather gets hotter in FL, AZ, NV or CA. That’s when it blows.

    There’s a reason people don’t riot in Winter.

  211. #207 – It looks like its a combo of share price ($1)/capital requirements($15 mil).

  212. Shore Guy says:

    For those NOT into doing blood tests on their “open cows.”

    Step1: Put on an arm’s length latex glove and spread some lubricant on the gloved hand. Stand close behind the cow, lift her tail and begin to insert your hand and arm into her rectum. (although this sounds alot like a story of Johns from the ’70s, it is not)

    Step2: Feel the back of the cow’s uterus, which will be in a downward position, with your inserted hand. Move your hand and arm firmly but gently. After thirty days of gestation, the fetus should be about the size of a softball and will feel like a soft, but distinctive lump under your hand.

    Step3: Remove your arm and hand from the cow steadily and gently. You should now have an answer to your question of “is she or isn’t she” pregnant.

  213. Clotpoll says:

    wallies (194)-

    That was the Buffett who sold puts under the whole damn economy.

    Today’s Buffett (Buffett 2.0?) seems to be a much different version.

  214. Clotpoll says:

    Today, I like Soros much more than Buffett 2.0.

  215. Shore Guy says:

    “capital requirements($15 mil)”

    In order to offer “incentives” to stay listed?

  216. Clotpoll says:

    make (197)-

    Sadly, I can’t double down. I’m already all-in.

  217. NJGator says:

    danzud 212 – Funny story. When the first units closed, Montclair had only assessed each unit for their share of the “land value” and none of the improvements. My friends are smart, so they had their mortgage company escrow at least $12k/year in taxes. Final quarter tax bills are sent out and Montclair hits them up for the full year’s taxes on the balance of the whole assessment. Most people owed 11k+ and were freaking out because they didn’t have the liquid cash to pay it. Most of them put nothing aside towards the tax bill even though they knew the original assessment was incomplete.

  218. Shore Guy says:

    B.O is trying to settle the markets it seems.

  219. BC Bob says:

    “After drinking last Friday at Wee Willy’s up the street”

    [193],

    I’ve been there.

  220. Clotpoll says:

    Shore (215)-

    Have you had the pleasure?

    Better you describe it than me.

  221. Shore Guy says:

    Talking about debtload, interest payments, need for cuts, yadda, yadda. I suspect Pelosi and Reid will reject any real cuts.

  222. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    “#207 – It looks like its a combo of share price ($1)/capital requirements($15 mil).”

    Plus you don’t get automatically delisted, NYSE sends a notice, company usually responds with plan to come back into compliance, may even be a hearing, whole process could take six months to a year. Ara’s just the type of prick to fight it, do a reverse stock split etc just not to be the one who led the “family” company into ruin.

  223. #218 – Surely they wouldn’t be that gauche about it, would they?
    Might as well list on the TSX.

    Also;

    Barneys in trouble?
    Nuts, I kind of like Barneys. They have awesome sales.

  224. yikes says:

    pres is pinning a lot of the problems on GWB. good stuff.

  225. Shore Guy says:

    Pleasure? I would not go so far as to describe the process as a pleasure.

  226. DL says:

    Clot: A college buddy of mine is now an Air Force 2 star general. Some years ago he wrote an article “The Origins of the American Military Coup of 2012.” HBO bought the rights to it. I’d bet they’re dusting it off now.

    http://www.carlisle.army.mil/usawc/parameters/1992/dunlap.htm

  227. Nicholas says:

    There was this research article about how, given a revision to mean-investing pre-bubble, that there eventually would be support around 7200 DOW.

    I’m currenly in the camp that says the drop will be much further below 7200 DOW but find it interesting that “chartists” find support there. I currenly have chosen 6500 DOW as a point to start to move back into the market but at this point but I’m watching the closely to see if the news remains poor.

  228. Outofstater says:

    #215 LOL! Post of the day for being the most OT. God, I love this “neighborhood.”

  229. lisoosh says:

    Clotpoll says:
    February 23, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    “If you don’t know how cows are pregnancy-tested, ask a vet. It ain’t pretty.”

    What, you don’t make them pee on a stick?

  230. yikes says:

    sure do miss that surplus that Clinton was able to generate …

  231. Clotpoll says:

    Frank’s taking a cow pregnancy test right now:

    http://www.google.com/finance?q=fas

  232. Clotpoll says:

    NJ Cattle Fertility Report?

  233. Clotpoll says:

    soosh (232)-

    The reall bummer is when they pee on your shoes whilst you have your arm up their bums.

  234. DL says:

    Here’s the military coup follow-up piece.
    http://www.guerrillacampaign.com/coup.htm

  235. Clotpoll says:

    DL (229)-

    Good post there. Should get the watchlist people refocused on this blog. :)

  236. The reall bummer is when they pee on your shoes whilst you have your arm up their bums.

    …blink ….blink

    /Note to self: Stay off of farms.

  237. Clotpoll says:

    Tosh (239)-

    This is why I rigged it to get out of HS after 11th grade.

    BTW, anxiety is our friend:

    http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=%5Evix

  238. Shore Guy says:

    “The reall bummer is when they pee on your shoes whilst you have your arm up their bums.”

    IF a cow started to urinate whilst you had your arm up its anus, you would count yourself luck to walk away with only your shoes wet.

  239. John says:

    Well BO is living up to his name, when someone yells BO I know something stinks and everything he has done reeks of BO.

  240. IF a cow started to urinate whilst you had your arm up its anus, you would count yourself luck to walk away with only your shoes wet.

    IDK, I would guilty if I didn’t stay to cuddle after wards.

  241. hirono says:

    Clot,

    RE: Excuse me, turdblossom, but where have I mentioned revenge or attacking ANYONE other than the actual, criminal gubmint of the USSA in any post I have ever made here?”

    Nice to see a mature and intelligent response to my post.

    I guess I misunderstood your post #67 when you wrote :

    “Can’t be surprised that . These are the same people that keep the NEA, gangster unions and politicians like Commissar Jon in power.

    The funny thing is, when everything goes Mad Max, these people will be the ones that their less-affluent brethren will turn on first. The proletariat and the gangsters know that these guys will be the easiest to rob and beat. Hell, they will probably enjoy it.

    I didn’t realize that “a bunch of liberal, NPR-loving wusses who read Pravda don’t think that actions have consequences” were not fellow citizens and that they are the criminal “gubmint of the USSA”

    And I guess I misconstrued your Mad Max fantasy as an attack on fellow citizens. The folks who “get what they deserve” and the gubmit are not fellow citizens either, I suppose they are impostors posing as American citizens.

    And how profound “actions have consequences – gee I had no idea. I thought when I flipped the light switch a geenie turned on the lights. Do words have consequences also?

    Clot I have no intention of getting into a flame war/pissing contest with you. Regurgitating Glen Beck like fantasies may somehow relieve your apprehension in a troubled world, but what real hope does it offer? It is apparent that there are similarities in these fantasies (perhaps not yours) and the screed written by that liberal hating murderer; that was the sole point of my post.

    And note I didn’t resort to such insults as “turdblossom”; did you really think that supports your argument and defense?

    I now humbly withdraw from this field of battle with the fantasists.

    PS – When the riots that you fantasize about begin don’t you think it’s likely that you upstanding citizens will start shooting each other in their blind rage and zealotry? I mean is it that easy to tell a “liberal, NPR, Pravda reading wuss” just by looks? What if he’s white?

    PPS – Sorry grim, I’ll try to abstain from such off topic nonsense in the future. I love this blog (the comments especially) but prefer when the content is more real estate/business based.

  242. John says:

    now is the stress test supossed to give stress to us or the banks? Also if I get a check returned from Citi marked insufficient funds is it because my acount does not have the funds or is it their account does not have the funds?

  243. IDK, I would feel guilty if I didn’t

    Blew my own stupidly juvenile punch-line.

  244. long_time_reader says:

    Well put Hirono, you are correct, we should keep it to relevant constructive posts.

    On the flip side, Clot keep the anarchy talk coming, I read this blog for info AND entertainment.

  245. confused in nj says:

    208.Clotpoll says:
    February 23, 2009 at 1:14 pm
    hirono (169)-

    Excuse me, turdblossom, but where have I mentioned revenge or attacking ANYONE other than the actual, criminal gubmint of the USSA in any post I have ever made here?

    I don’t have any desire to attack any fellow citizen, no matter what his persuasion. In fact, as I discussed yesterday, I don’t think the vast majority of people who are underwater financially are guilty of anything more than making a mistake. Financial problems are a sign of bad decision-making, not moral failure.

    I do advocate an overthrow of the gubmint, which IS my idea of a good start to solving many of our current problems, as the gubmint is currently controlled by corrupt interests and filled with people who completely deny the severity of the problems that exist.

    Amen! My weapons are strictly defensive. Last offensive use was Nam. When the riots begin, they will be ready.

  246. make money says:

    make (197)-

    Sadly, I can’t double down. I’m already all-in.

    Bummer. I feel the same when it comes to Shiny!

    “Scared money don’t make none”

  247. SG says:

    Luxury homeowners are falling behind on mortgage payments at the fastest pace in more than 15 years, a sign the U.S. financial crisis that began with the poorest Americans has reached the wealthiest. About 2.57 percent of prime borrowers who took out jumbo loans last year were at least 60 days delinquent, according to mortgage data service LPS Applied Analytics.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAEZ6VDyUbXo&refer=home

  248. SG says:

    Riverton Apartments, a high-rise complex in Manhattan’s Harlem neighborhood, may be auctioned off on Feb. 20 because owners Rockpoint Group LLC and Stellar Management have been unable to modify loan terms, according to Trepp LLC, a commercial real estate data company.

    The mezzanine lender is holding a public sale to foreclose on all of its pledged collateral, Trepp said, citing documents from the servicer of the loan. The lender isn’t identified. A recent appraisal valued the property at $196 million, down from as much as $340 million when the complex was last appraised in December 2006, Trepp said in an e-mail.

    ==
    Delinquencies on commercial mortgages bundled and sold as bonds may triple by late 2009 as large real estate loans default, Standard & Poor’s said today.

    Late payments on commercial mortgages reached 1.10 percent during the fourth quarter of 2008, and have been climbing since the low of 0.27 percent in March 2007, S&P said in a statement. The commercial real estate market is in the early stages of a correction, and delinquencies may reach 3.5 percent this year, the New York-based ratings company said.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=apVy1vpZM8zY&refer=home

  249. Stu says:

    Techticker:
    Citigroup’s Clever Plan to Screw Taxpayers Again
    Posted Feb 23, 2009 11:29am EST by

    From The Business Insider, Feb. 23, 2009:

    So Citigroup (C) has proposed that the US taxpayer and other preferred shareholders convert up to $75 billion of preferred stock into common stock, thus bolstering the company’s tangible equity and putting it in less desperate need of a complete takeover.

    And what will the US taxpayer get for this preferred stock conversion? 40% of the company for some of its $45 billion of preferred, say reports. The reports add that Citigroup’s goal here is to keep the US’s ownership under 50%, so this won’t be a de facto nationalization.

    Well, that’s nice for Citigroup…and another ream-job for taxpayers.

    Citigroup’s common equity is currently worth $10 billion. If the US were to convert all $45 billion of its preferred at the current stock price, it should end up with 80% of the company, not 40%.

    For the US to convert $45 billion of preferred to common and only get 40% of the company, Citigroup’s existing common equity would have to be valued at $65 billion, not $10 billion, and the conversion price would have to be about $10 a share. Or the US would only be able to convert $4 billion of its $45 billion, which wouldn’t help Citigroup’s tangible equity ratio much.

    So is that what Citigroup is trying to do here? Persuade the US goverment to convert to common stock at a price miles above the current trading price, screwing the US taxpayer yet again?

    Or does Citigroup have some other secret plan up its sleeve whereby it can take up to $75 billion of debt (preferred stock) off its books and not end up diluting its current shareholders 90%?

  250. kettle1 says:

    question of the day by john

    if I get a check returned from Citi marked insufficient funds is it because my account does not have the funds or is it their account does not have the funds?

  251. BC Bob says:

    “Feb. 23 (Bloomberg) — American Express Co., the largest U.S. credit-card company by purchases, is paying some cardholders $300 each to close accounts so the lender can reduce the risk of defaults as the recession deepens.”

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=awn.v.OUJjkE&refer=home

  252. SG says:

    U.S. Bubble Collapse to Be Worse Than Japan’s, CLSA’s Wood Says

    Feb. 23 (Bloomberg) — The U.S. is facing a deflationary collapse more severe than the crash that hobbled Japan’s economy in the 1990s, leaving gold as the only defensive play for investors, according to CLSA Ltd.’s Christopher Wood.

    Gold may be the safest haven for investors as policy makers accelerate responses to the crisis, devaluing currencies versus hard assets such as gold in the process, said Wood. Gold is likely to more than quadruple from the current level of $986 per ounce currently to $3,500 in 2010, he said.

    Wood, who in 2003 predicted the U.S. housing crisis, joined New York University economist Nouriel Roubini in cautioning against investment in Europe due to the rising risk among economies in the eastern and central parts of the continent that carry current account deficits.

    Moody’s Investors Service Inc. on Feb. 17 said some of Europe’s largest banks may be downgraded because of loans to eastern Europe, sending shares of lenders tumbling.

    “In my view, we will have a full-scale currency collapse in central and eastern Europe,” the strategist said. “This will lead to a growing focus on the huge exposure of the European banks to these distressed economies.”

  253. Sean says:

    re: #177 schabadoo – what is “sad” is how the MSM is continually manipulating stories about Hollywood and drug use for decades, so they can market these people to the young’uns so they can sell them hundreds of billion worth of crap ever year.

    You called druggie actors artists? What Heath Ledger did in Batman was not art, I see plenty of whacked out Heroin addicts ever day that put on a show better than that.

  254. schabadoo says:

    But if they jump, they can’t pick up their $4 Starbucks coffee in the moring.

    Is there any way we could put to rest this meme? It’s tired and inaccurate.

    Dunkin Donuts – $2
    Starbucks – $2.20

  255. sas says:

    “$4 Starbucks coffee”

    it easily becomes $4 if it becomes a foo foo drink.

    my wife buys those damn foo foo drinks all the time.

    i just get reg coffee.

    SAS

  256. sas says:

    kettle1,

    you look into the Tulip bulb mania?

    its an interesting story with many familiar trends.

    SAS

  257. schabadoo says:

    You called druggie actors artists? What Heath Ledger did in Batman was not art

    Ok, is this a bit and I’m just not wise to it?

    Lynn Swann was an artist. Would that change if he took amphetamines?

    Poe, King, Thompson, Cheever, Faulkner, Kerouac, Fitzgerald, Joyce, Hemingway……non-artists, right?

  258. kettle1 says:

    schab,

    and it gets better,

    starbucks is planning on moving to instant coffee…. wonder how that works with their brand…

  259. schabadoo says:

    it easily becomes $4 if it becomes a foo foo drink.

    Try Dunkin’s espresso drinks or their smoothies. $4+.

    Starbucks’ cafe americano is $2.50 and it’s liquid crack.

  260. Clotpoll says:

    Shore (241)-

    I always had the benefit of a plastic, chest-to-shins apron when performing this delicate operation.

    I would also burn my work coveralls 1-2x per Summer.

  261. Nicholas says:

    My bank refused to cash one of my checks citing insufficient funds when clearly there was 10x the amount of money in the account.

    I found another bank within days.

    I don’t play that shell game.

  262. 3b says:

    #257 Dunkin Donuts large 2.00. Starbucks Small/Tall 2.00.

  263. gary says:

    Starbucks’ cafe americano is $2.50 and it’s liquid crack.

    Cool! I bet that and a Klonipin chaser would be awesome!!

  264. John says:

    Citi does not care about shareholders. Remember first two purposes are to protect their debtholders and to stay in business. If they dilute the shareholders, by converting costly interest bearing pref stock to common stock with a 1 cent dividend it frees up massive future obligations, lots of pref stock trading at 5 bucks a share years down the road converts at 25 bucks a share and pays a whopper of a dividend. Remember, citi employees unvested restricted stock and options are pretty much worthless. Better to save company and save jobs and dilute stock, when stock is diluted and at a buck a share you can attract talent by giving boatloads of restricted stock at one dollar with nowhere to go but up. Bottom line someone is getting thrown under the bus. The widows and orphans who bought citi at 40 a share are getting run over this week. When citi makes it back to five they are still sunk, but when citi management who gets a boat load of new restricted stock in 2009 at one see it rise to five they are up 500%.

  265. All Hype says:

    Here comes the PPY pump. Let’s see if it has any legs…

  266. kettle1 says:

    SAS,

    i am familiar with tuplip bulbs and how their value only goes up. was there something specific you had in mind?

  267. Nicholas says:

    I have never seen my wife come back from starbucks with a 2.50 cent receipt, it is always more.

    I put the kibosh on all store bought coffee until further notice.

  268. 3b says:

    #254 BC Bob: the risk of defaults as the recession deepens.”

    Bu, but the Fed says the recessionwill be over in 2009, how it be deepening if it is going to be over?

    Oh yeah, the same Fed that has been wrong all along.

    Yes, THE FED WRONG ALL ALONG.

  269. Clotpoll says:

    hirono (244)-

    You have constructed an elaborate and tiresome straw man argument within your post. All that flows from it is utterly without merit, as your conclusions are drawn from words I didn’t write and ideas I didn’t espouse.

    If you think I’m on either the side of Glenn Beck or some nut who shot up a church, you’re not only tiresome, but you need to learn how to read.

  270. comrade nom deplume says:

    [264] Nicholas,

    Do dime them out as that is a very sketchy (and illegal) practice.

    You can also dime them to their primary regulator. You don’t get much satisfaction from it, except that they will spend thousands on legal fees answering the regulator’s inquiry.

  271. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    “All Hype says:
    February 23, 2009 at 2:16 pm
    Here comes the PPY pump. Let’s see if it has any legs…”

    Yeah I can hear it now, O’man screaming, “I am the Pres of the USA Timmay! When I make a speech the f’n market needs to pop!”

  272. Stu says:

    “my wife buys those damn foo foo drinks all the time.

    i just get reg coffee.”

    Finally, something we can agree upon ;)

    Starbucks coffee tastes burnt to me and no matter how many times you tell the barista to not fill it to the top (to leave room for milk), they don’t listen.

    I’ll stick with the home-brewed 100% Kona and an occasional Dunkin, when I am away from home.

  273. 3b says:

    #244 hirono:but prefer when the content is more real estate/business based.

    Real estate/business is over.

  274. NJGator says:

    I like to get my foo foo drinks at Pret A Manger now in the city. Organic milk is standard and soy milk is free. Both are upcharges at Starbucks.

    Don’t worry, Stu. I get them no more than once/week. Really. Honest.

  275. gary says:

    I wonder if the buyer of that house who had to feed the squirrels as stipulated in the contract is underwater by now? lol!

  276. Stu says:

    “Real estate/business is over.”

    Nice. Nice. Not pregnancy testing cows, but nice.

    Treasure bath!!!!!!!!!!!

  277. lisoosh says:

    Clotpoll says:
    February 23, 2009 at 1:32 pm

    “soosh (232)-

    The reall bummer is when they pee on your shoes whilst you have your arm up their bums.”

    I’ve done my agricultural time – worked on fruit trees primarily, never livestock.

    The milking crew got regularly sh@t on though, I know that. Nobody would sit near them at lunch.

  278. Clotpoll says:

    3b (271)-

    “If I were on your show 15 weeks in a row and was wrong, you’d probably never invite me back. These guys have been wrong year after year after year consistently and here they are making the same mistakes again. This is not going to solve the problem, it’s going to make it worse.”

    Jim Rogers, on Squawk Box

  279. Stu says:

    Did the PPT forget to pay the meter?

  280. sas says:

    kettle,

    tulip bulb mania.

    SAS

  281. lisoosh says:

    Actually – I did help out in the chicken houses when they were under pressure 3am catches to ship them out. Lovely work if you enjoy the smell of ammonia.

  282. kettle1 says:

    gator,

    is that pretorious’ new shop?

    for a good stimulant kick just get some NOxplode! that stuff will have you running around like you just hit an 8 ball

    and stick to 1 scoop or less, otherwise your heart might explode. cheaper the dunkins too!

    http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=IP-1003

  283. Clotpoll says:

    3b (277)-

    We’re about to go to the mattresses, and some of these dopes still want to talk about their neighbor’s overpriced condo.

  284. sas says:

    FYI:

    setting up a new email address today.
    I have too many ghost emails, i’ve lost track.

    SAS

  285. Clotpoll says:

    soosh (281)-

    Thus the old adage: don’t eat where you shit.

    “The milking crew got regularly sh@t on though, I know that. Nobody would sit near them at lunch.”

  286. schabadoo says:

    #257 Dunkin Donuts large 2.00. Starbucks Small/Tall 2.00.

    Go to Paramus and order large coffees at both places. They’re within 20 cents of each other.

    Starbucks coffee tastes burnt to me

    Yeah, I hear the same when I drink Guinness.

  287. kettle1 says:

    SAS,

    Yes i am familiar with tulip bulb mania. At the peak in the 1st half of the 1600’s contracts were going for 10-15X “median” incomes. it included contracts, shorts and what amounted to futures. it all went up in smoke

  288. Jersey Jim says:

    190. hirono says:
    February 23, 2009 at 12:39 pm
    Ket1

    Your are correct.
    I did post a similar link a few days ago in frustration of all the gun fantasies posted here.
    ———————————–
    Up yours wacko. You appear to be another far left leaning nut job. I’m sure you and the yoga jail instructor would get along great. “But officer, they are good people who made some bad choices.” Give me a break.

  289. lisoosh says:

    The South Sea bubble was a good one too.

  290. danzud says:

    I’m a DD guy. I go to Costco pick up the large package and make it at work. As for Starbucks coffee, the taste is awful. I do have my weaknesses there however. Probably once a year, I get one of those Frappucinos in the summer and at holiday time, I get one of their pumpkin or some other type of warm drink. Each one of those I think is over $4.

    Starbucks may have lowered their prices lately as less realtors are showing up.

  291. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Clot,

    Just ignore the clown. Obviously there’s a certain segment of Trolls out there who are idealogues who try and paint any unsupportive statement of their viewpoint as uttered by Satan.

    Sheeple still think there’s a difference between these crooks because a D or R follows their name on TV.

  292. kettle1 says:

    lissosh,

    i would consider the collapse of the south sea bubble the 1st failed attempt and “modern” globalization.

    The british were ordering goods from around the world on a regular basis, but that was drastically curtailed when the bubble popped

    i guess the debt bubble of 2009 is the second attempt

  293. lisoosh says:

    Don’t like either DD or Starbucks coffee. Both stink.

    Wawa – $1.20, made fresh every 20 minutes and you can fix it however you like.

  294. Victorian says:

    Look at which pig is back at the trough –

    “AIG Is In Talks With Government To Secure Additional Funds to Keep Operating, CNBC Has Learned”

  295. 3b says:

    #290 Maybe in Paramus, not in downtown Manhattan.

    Anyhow I perfer the taste of DD,and there is something dork like in asking for a grande.

  296. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    Citibank Officially Dumber Than Your Spam Filter

    Have you noticed — in the last year or so — that you’ve had to direct your mother to Snopes far less frequently? With constant reports on Internet scams and online security tips, almost everyone is hip to international identity thieves and impervious to even the most convincing spam.

    Everyone, of course, except the multinational financial firm that’s a hairsbreadth away from bankruptcy.

    Last Friday, a Nigerian man — Paul Gabriel Amos — was indicted for attempting to steal roughly $27.2 million from Citibank (C). And he would’ve gotten away with it if it weren’t for those meddling receiving accounts (with apologies to every Scooby-Doo episode denouement ever).

    http://www.minyanville.com/articles/C-citigroup-bank-citi-nigeria-fraud/index/a/21257

  297. 3b says:

    #298 That is because they just lost another 50 billion, and they had to pay that bonus retention money.

    It takes talent and hard work to lose another 50 billion.

  298. All Hype says:

    Mr. Obama: Please get Timmay out there buying some stocks.

    Thank You!

  299. ricky_nu says:

    GRim – re: #83

    I know the house they are talking about in USR (52 deerfield)

    builder bought the land for $930k in 2006

    buildable lots are now trading 450-600k

    hosue has been on market for more than a year, and I think original ask price was $3.2mm……timing is everything

  300. ruggles says:

    $20 for 4 lbs of ground coffee at my local DD. anything else is a waste of money (although sometimes will indulge in a fresh cup at DD, have to admit)

  301. Clotpoll says:

    After a cattle pregnancy test, nothing in life seems “grande” anymore.

  302. John says:

    down 200pts!

  303. kettle1 says:

    Lissosh, SAS

    what was old is new again:

    In August 1720 the first of the installment payments of the first and second money subscriptions on new issues of South Sea stock were due. Earlier in the year Blunt had come up with an idea to prop up the share price — the company would lend people money to buy its shares. As a result, a lot of shareholders could not pay for their shares other than by selling them. (Wiki for south sea bubble)

    NEW YORK: Shareholders want executives to put their money where their mouths are – but recent events show that it had better not be borrowed money.

    Investors in a series of companies whose executives had to sell stock to repay bank loans have suffered twice as much pain as those invested in the broader market this month.

    The surprising sales announcements have prompted calls for company insiders to disclose when they have bought shares on margin. They have also blindsided those who use so-called insider activity to bet on stock movements.

    “In most instances, insiders do not disclose when they buy shares on margin, and I think everybody should agree that that should be disclosed if it can affect the company’s market price,” said Michael Gallo, a partner at the law firm DeCotiis FitzPatrick Cole & Wisler in Teaneck, New Jersey.

    At least 31 companies have reported forced insider share sales because of margin calls so far in October, much higher than the usual one or two a month, said Ben Silverman, director of research at InsiderScore, which tracks insider activity.
    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/22/business/col23.php

  304. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    10 pts to BYE BI

  305. Stu says:

    “Yeah, I hear the same when I drink Guinness.”

    Now that’s just absurd. But I can sort of see where it is coming from.

  306. Stu says:

    Looks like the PPT got lost feeding the meter. Perhaps they ran out of quarters?

  307. Clotpoll says:

    vodka (307)-

    One can only hope that Frank belongs to this select club.

    “In most instances, insiders do not disclose when they buy shares on margin, and I think everybody should agree that that should be disclosed if it can affect the company’s market price,” said Michael Gallo, a partner at the law firm DeCotiis FitzPatrick Cole & Wisler in Teaneck, New Jersey.

    At least 31 companies have reported forced insider share sales because of margin calls so far in October, much higher than the usual one or two a month, said Ben Silverman, director of research at InsiderScore, which tracks insider activity.”

  308. Clotpoll says:

    bi muzzle watch goes <10.

  309. Zack says:

    7 more S&P points before total collapse. Next stop 6500

  310. SG says:

    Time to stop bankers making one-way bets

    The restoration of banking’s old rules won’t work, says Katherine Griffiths – we need a new balance.

    Now, sick from this binge, many in the financial world are talking about a return to “narrow banking”, which is what a modern-day Glass-Steagall would create. High-street banks would take deposits and lend to individuals and businesses. More exotic financial houses would be allowed to exist, but if they failed, taxpayers would not bail them out.

    The bottom line is that for reasons of basic fairness and to improve the financial system, there has to be change so that in future banks do not have a one-way bet allowing them to make unlimited profits in the good times, while in the bad times the taxpayer bails them out. A balance of responsibility has to be established.

  311. Stu says:

    “there is something dork like in asking for a grande.”

    I agree 3b. I still ask for a large, and they never say anything.

  312. schabadoo says:

    Anyhow I perfer the taste of DD

    Ummm ok.

    Just trying to dispel the ‘Starbucks coffee cost $11 gabillion dollars’ nonsense.

  313. Clotpoll says:

    schab (316)-

    .10 USD for a cup of swill that tastes like burnt shoes is still overpaying.

  314. All Hype says:

    Who here called AIG a trillion dollar black hole? Whoever it was, you may be right.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/29353282

  315. schabadoo says:

    .10 USD for a cup of swill that tastes like burnt shoes is still overpaying.

    I know.

    Have a Guinness in a bar and the girls with the Coors Lights hit me with that word-for-word.

    To each their own. I grind espresso beans at home and use a french press. Tasty and heart racing.

  316. Stu says:

    If you want to splurge for coffee, this is the place to splurge for it…

    http://www.shop.sweetokolecoffeecompany.com/product.sc?categoryId=3&productId=12

    We buy in bulk with the deal listed above. Keep in mind, when brewing Kona you use 1/3rd less, so 6 pounds becomes 9.

    I drank Costa Rican for years, but this Kona is so damn smooth that nothing out there compares. If we ever do a GTG, I’ll bring some beans.

  317. Barbara says:

    267.
    stu
    I hate Starbucks coffee too, bitter and burnt tasting and a horrible aftertaste.
    I’m old school and prefer a smoother french roast.
    D&D for me when on the road although they can be inconsistent. My local is pretty good.

  318. Barbara says:

    BTW the Starbucks breakfast blend is much better but they stop serving it after 11AM

  319. Stu says:

    Who here called AIG a trillion dollar black hole? Whoever it was, you may be right.

    I think it was ChiFi (wink, wink)

  320. Geithner & Co hinting at nationalization post stress tests

    MarketWatch Link

  321. JoeR says:

    I am boycotting the Dunkin Donut stores near me. I’m not sure when they did it, but they changed the prices (medium coffee) to come out after tax to $2.01 or $2.02. It’s so annoying.

    They caught on to the fact that many people take the change after buying coffee and drop it in the tip cup. By changing the prices to come out to $2.01 or $2.02, they are hoping for 50% tip or nearly $1.00.

    Thus the reason for the boycott.

    Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon?

  322. Clotpoll says:

    schab (319)-

    Now you’re talking!

  323. Stu says:

    “Geithner & Co hinting at nationalization post stress tests”

    Same administration which said on Friday, that they would not go this route. This is worse than the CIA/FBI disconnect that could have averted 911. Or was that just circus?

  324. grim says:

    From CNBC:

    AIG Is In Talks With Government To Secure Additional Funds to Keep Operating, CNBC Has Learned (story developing)

    From MarketWatch:

    AIG to report $60 bln quarterly loss, seek more help – CNBC

  325. John says:

    re 323 Stu, I got in trouble on this site for talking about black holes so please cut it out.

  326. AIG to report $60 bln quarterly loss

    That’s just stunning.

  327. Barbara says:

    325.
    Joe
    Don’t get me started on tip jars. I’ve had servers shake that damned thing at me even AFTER I put money in it….for a 2.00 cup of coffee or a 4.50 sushi roll.

  328. kettle1 says:

    citi is just practice for BAC. Once timmy and Co figure out how to nationalize citi they will then use the same method on BAC. Citi is just the 1st run experiment.

  329. kettle1 says:

    Stu,

    dont wont you to get nervous about FXP, so here you go ;)

    By Rodman’s calculations, 500 million square feet of commercial real estate has been developed in Beijing since 2006, more than all the office space in Manhattan. And that doesn’t include huge projects developed by the government. He says 100 million square feet of office space is vacant — a 14-year supply if it filled up at the same rate as in the best years, 2004 through ’06, when about 7 million square feet a year was leased.

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fg-beijing-bust22-2009feb22,0,1213023.story?page=1&track=rss

  330. Barbara says:

    alright…..
    I have substantial money in both Citi and BOA. Am I more secure because they go national, or am I better off going to a small local bank that could fail when the commercial stuff starts to under?
    WWNJRRD?

  331. grim says:

    How to help AIG? Take the ol’ girl out behind the woodshed with rifle in hand?

  332. BC says:

    http://www.njmls.com/cf/details.cfm?mls_number=2906276&id=999999

    This 2 bedroom back on the market in Ho Ho Kus reduced to 515K, wonder what it will actually sell for? I guess a number that starts with 4, but the second number is the hard one to guess. If the person holds outs too long the first number could be 3.

  333. Barbara says:

    335.
    NO, YELLER!

  334. NJGator says:

    SRS above 80. Woo hoo!

  335. kettle1 says:

    330 tosh,

    those gentlemen need larger bonuses. Can you imagine the hours they must work to generate a loss like that????

  336. NJGator says:

    339 Kettle – Where do I volunteer to lose twice as much money for half the bonus?

  337. #339 – It must be exhausting work. A man could work up a mighty thirst engineering that much fail.

  338. Clotpoll says:

    Stu (323)-

    I made the trillion dollar sinkhole call on AIG, but I did it after talking to BC, so the credit is his.

  339. BC says:

    060505BF0 BANKAMERICA SR NT 4.375 12/01/10 9.033(M) 92.547 now the markets is getting crazy scared for senior short term bank bonds to be at 9%.

    Super heavy vol coming in on sell side, we are down 230 pts.

  340. Clotpoll says:

    vodka (332)-

    Sometimes, “practice” just yields Dr. Frankenstein’s monster.

  341. Clotpoll says:

    I live for days like today.

  342. Hard Place says:

    I have a theory about you SAS. Are you a counterintelligience agent from another country looking to foment government outrage by using subterfuge to promote theories that there are diabolical agents at work within the US to keep us all enslaved? If that is the case, I need to slowly draw the shades down from my office and make sure I go around random blocks in circles to ensure I’m not being followed.

  343. Clotpoll says:

    Anyone want to venture a guess as to how C’s stress test is going?

  344. BC says:

    election day dow was 9,600 points, today 7,100 points, 2,500 points wiped out in three months since our new prez was put in charge, don’t wory at that rate in less than nine months we will be at zero and problem will be solved comrades.

  345. kettle1 says:

    hard place,

    i think i agree,

    SAS is a government plant. whose government, i dont know.

  346. Clotpoll says:

    bi muzzle within 8.

  347. jcer says:

    Coffee tip jar? Man I feel like the cheap bast*rd in the room. I never, never, ever put money in the tip jar when I get coffee, I tip for table service, at bars and hotel bellman or concierge that is it. Does anyone else see an issue with a gratuity for someone doing their job. I understand tipping waitstaff, etc as that is their compensation system and it leads to better service, but anything else give me a break.

  348. danzud says:

    I don’t think dear leader will use the word comrade

  349. Stu says:

    Kettle1:

    Thanks for the Chinese news. Keep ’em coming?

    R U in FXP as well?

  350. BC Bob says:

    Classic.

    frank says:
    February 23, 2009 at 7:17 am

    Clotpoll,
    Thanks for the SRS idea, with some SRS puts and few thousand shares of FAS you are going to make me rich today.

  351. BC says:

    Don’t rationlize, if you are cheap you are cheap, nothing wrong with it.

    jcer says:
    February 23, 2009 at 3:41 pm
    Coffee tip jar? Man I feel like the cheap bast*rd in the room. I never, never, ever put money in the tip jar when I get coffee, I tip for table service, at bars and hotel bellman or concierge that is it. Does anyone else see an issue with a gratuity for someone doing their job. I understand tipping waitstaff, etc as that is their compensation system and it leads to better service, but anything else give me a break.

  352. Zack says:

    BC and BC Bob the same??

  353. BC Bob says:

    “BC and BC Bob the same??”

    Zack,

    NO. I actually agree with jcer.

  354. 3b says:

    #336 BC Bob:If the person holds outs too long the first number could be 3.

    The first number will be a 3, back to late 90’s pricing before this is over.

  355. kettle1 says:

    clot,

    Mike Morgan is suggesting we may see global market collapse this week…..

    disclosure: i do not pay for his services….

  356. 3b says:

    #332 kettle: Can JPM/Chase be far behind??

  357. Zack says:

    T minus 3 S&P points before we are in unchartered territory.

  358. kettle1 says:

    BC (not BC Bob)

    you might want to clarify your name, i doubt you can fill BC bob’s shoes on this blog. otherwise welcome to the show!

  359. BC says:

    before christ

  360. kettle1 says:

    3b

    The Big 4 all all lines up like planes at EWR….

    if BC Bob is right about europe (i think he is) and given the big 4 US banks, i think that we could easily see a global dislocation this week or next…

  361. Hard Place says:

    kettle1 says:
    February 23, 2009 at 3:37 pm
    hard place,

    i think i agree,

    SAS is a government plant. whose government, i dont know.

    All this make friendly talk with idealogues on the site. Offering morsels of political stories, Juanita and saving orphanages to sate our appetite and gain our trust. I can see him combing back his hair to reveal the horns, rubbing his hands together and in a low grumble say “muhahahahahaha”…

  362. BC Bob says:

    3b [358],

    That wasn’t my post, #336.

  363. Stu says:

    What about the auto bailout? Those union auto workers must really feel jipped having to take the back seat to the banks.

  364. 3b says:

    #366 BC Bob: Sorry.

  365. Stu says:

    Muzzle approaching 7. This sure does not feel like SRS in the 50s. Maybe tomorrow?

  366. Clotpoll says:

    BC (354)-

    It’s up on the bulletin board in my office. My agents are laughing at it.

  367. Clotpoll says:

    Maybe Frank works for Vikram’s old hedge fund that got rolled into C when they hired him.

  368. kettle1 says:

    stu,

    auto bailout???? forget the unions. This whole operation is about trying to keep the foreign debt holders from pulling the plug.

    The auto bailout game was dual purpose. There were/are major foreign holders of debt in that field and the ability to market it as “save american jobs” was just a bonus.

    The banking bailout is for the same purpose and they are terrified because they cannot figure out how to bailout the foreign holders of debt without kill US treasuries….

    Doesnt hurt that all of the treasury secretaries banker buddies are get piles of cash in the process.

  369. 3b says:

    Well here we are, the stock market is back to late 1990′ levels,but meanwhile back in real estate land many delusional sellers are still looking for peak 2005/06 prices.

  370. Stu says:

    I just found a picture of Frank…

    http://tinyurl.com/FranksHedgeFund

  371. Al says:

    I go work for a day, do not check stock and the blog, come back at the end of the day and look at what happened?

    Old timers at work with big 401K are all wound up – I guess no baby boomers will retire voluntarily from my company.

    Too bad my company went on a hiring spree during last 3 years I quote: “Because we are expecting large attrition due to baby-boomers retiring ”

    I know of 5 people who were suppose to retire this year – they said in 2006 that they would, now they are saying that they are staying indefinitely.
    So we are stuck with double number of people and sluggish sales…

    This summer will be fun. Famous quote from finance VP last month: “Nobody could have foreseen this economic conditions. We thought our industry was immune to slowdown.”

    Gotta love it. Guess what – he will not be the one to lose his job. IN addition – his salary can probably cover 5 people like me.

  372. MikeyMike says:

    Kettle,

    What exactly is Mike Morgan suggesting?

    Mike

  373. kettle1 says:

    stu,

    the correct link for frank

    http://tinyurl.com/88rkxy

  374. Essex says:

    374…don’t laff stu…that kid might be your next boss.

  375. make money says:

    election day dow was 9,600 points, today 7,100 points, 2,500 points wiped out in three months since our new prez was put in charge, don’t wory at that rate in less than nine months we will be at zero and problem will be solved comrades.

    BC,

    What are you talking about. These guys have been great for me.

    Can we sign them up for another four years?

  376. Hard Place says:

    kettle1,

    That’s an interesting article on Shanghai. With the huge stimulus plan coming from China, you have to wonder what else can they spend it on? China is one of the only economies, whose banks are not in dire straits. However if there are RE loans under all these empty buildings, than you wonder how fragile their banking system may be.

  377. Essex says:

    I am not really sure what to make of the equities market right now….but you figure with all of the wealth wiped out…most people are thinking the mattress is looking pretty good right now….

  378. BC Bob says:

    make [379],

    Not my post.

  379. cooper says:

    377 Ket Stu
    LMAO!

  380. kettle1 says:

    hardplace

    the chinese stimulus is being pumped into their stock market to make everything look nice and shiny….. dont kick the tires though, they might fall off.

  381. make money says:

    BC stop trying to be BC Bob and change your handle immediately.

    You even got me confused.

    Speaking of confused…Where is Timmy G and the ppt team.

    Since the opposite is happening these days I’m beginning to think that Timmy G has put Bi in charge of the PPT.

  382. jcer says:

    Things are rough in China as well, nobody is unaffected by this collapse, some are hurting more than others but this sucker classifies as global.

    Al don’t worry they will fire from the 5 workers 4.5 meaning that you boss will keep his job and salary but will only have a half employee. Then they will scratch their heads when the work doesn’t seem to be getting done while they are doing the same thing they always have. Management in corporate america all of the expense, but without the ability to think.

  383. kettle1 says:

    recap…..

    Obama and Co now have to somehow bailout Citi BAC AIG and GE all at the same time without cause the US to default on its dept or being to massively print and destroy the ability of the US to sell bonds.

    Oh and a bailout of all four would need about 5 – 8T as an off the cuff guess

  384. Clotpoll says:

    Al (375)-

    Look at it this way: maybe one day soon, a disgruntled employee (or ex-employee) walks into your office and solves everyone’s problems in about three minutes.

  385. Hard Place says:

    hardplace

    the chinese stimulus is being pumped into their stock market to make everything look nice and shiny

    Anectdotal evidence that is happening. But with such a small market relative to the stimulus, I’d imagine this could shake a lot of change loose from some deep pockets.

  386. kettle1 says:

    This whole financial collapse thin is starting to get exciting. We are going to see how big (or not) a set Obama has in the next few weeks.

    Think of it as the mother of all Chinese finger traps. Pulling back will only get you in deeper. the only way out is to dive on in, break the grip and then pull out.

    ——————–

    and i may be illiterate, oh well thats what a state school gets you ;)

    Obama and Co now have to somehow bailout Citi BAC AIG and GE all at the same time without causing the US to default on its dept or begining to massively print money and destroy the ability of the US to sell bonds.

  387. skep-tic says:

    well, count me as one externality of Mr. O’s housing bailout. I’ve been looking around to potentially buy a house since late last year, but haven’t been seeing any value.

    So I was contemplating renewing my lease for 1 yr. But the bailout announcement last week got me to thinking that this administration is going to do whatever it can to slow price declines, so over this weekend I ended up signing a 2 yr lease instead (and my rent was discounted for it). On top of this, I have the option to extend for a third year at the same rent if I want.

    I do not think I am atypical in my response to this plan. It creates a big incentive for buyers to stay out of the market until the price manipulation tactics are pulled

  388. kettle1 says:

    Hard Place

    Anectdotal evidence

    absolutely. that and my opinion. those 2 together with a penny might be worth something

  389. BC says:

    at nine months we will be at zero and the poor will be burning the short sellers at the stake with worthless piles of 100 dollar bills while we dine on their flesh. :
    February 23, 2009 at 4:15 pm
    election day dow was 9,600 points, today 7,100 points, 2,500 points wiped out in three months since our new prez was put in charge, don’t wory at that rate in less than nine months we will be at zero and problem will be solved comrades.

    BC,

    What are you talking about. These guys have been great for me.

    Can we sign them up for another four years?

  390. SG says:

    Marshall almost gets ‘nationalization’ fever

    Is it time to get money from Bank and hide under mattress?

  391. Essex says:

    389…clot has this way of putting it all in perspective…..P.S…I got nuthin against the chicks on this blog…including Stu.

  392. BC says:

    things are so bad in china all you can get now is a Rub Or a Tug.

    jcer says:
    February 23, 2009 at 4:31 pm
    Things are rough in China as well, nobody is unaffected by this collapse, some are hurting more than others but this sucker classifies as global.

  393. kettle1 says:

    BC

    its not the short sellers that are the problem. Its the banksters and politico’s that need to be roasted and served rare

  394. Lincoln78 says:

    In case you haven’t listened, NPR’s Planet Money is a good podcast / blog. You might not agree with them (or their guests) all the time, they provide a good explanatory forum of this situation that too few understand.

    Anyway, I found some posts from today’s blog interesting:

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2009/02/comments/responsible_renters.html

    “Call me paranoid if you must, but I can’t help feeling someone is manipulating the national conversation. If we were all piling up sand bags against the flood, would we really care whether the bags were bought from my uncle, your aunt, yourself, or me? While someone is pitting “responsible homeowners” against “irresponsible” ones, against renters, against wall street, against the auto industry, against autoworkers; there is a tsunami on the way that no one’s willing to talk about. We can only hope that they’re quietly making plans for dealing with the aftermath.”

    “had you bought 5 years ago with a modest down payment, you would likely still be a little ahead of the game or at least at the break even point. Two years from now when the market climbs out of the hole, you will still own nothing. This crisis is only a problem for people who have to move. Though that is a large number of people it is not even close to most people.”

    If these are the thoughts of what I’d assume to be the smarter people in the US (NPR listeners)…

    ugh

  395. grim says:

    Just a warning out there for those purchasing items from retailers in liquidation.

    Customers Burned In Circuit City Closeout Sale

    BOSTON — Liquidation sales promise great deals on big-ticket items, but as Team 5 Investigates discovered, customers may change their minds once they get home and open the box.

    Team 5’s Susan Wornick took a look inside Circuit City’s close-out sale.

    Customer Gina Reis paid $1,100 for a big screen Samsung TV at the liquidation sale, only to get it home and discover it was completely unusable.

    “It’s shattered from here all the way up, and then on the other side as well,” said Reis.

    When the couple took the set back to the store … “They said, ‘Sorry, your problem, not ours,” Reis said.

    Repairs would cost $2,000 and Circuit City said it would do nothing.

    “I expected to get a TV that was working,” Reis said.

    There are plenty of signs in the store that say “Final Sales” but nowhere does it say the merchandise may be defective.

    In a regular retail transaction, the state law would require a refund, repair or replacement, but in a liquidation, federal bankruptcy court overrides state law, meaning there is no recourse and there is no disclosure.

  396. SG says:

    So even Wharton is supporting Nationalization,

    Has the Time Come to Nationalize Struggling Banks? Yes, but Carefully

    Many Wharton faculty also agree. Among them is Wharton finance professor Franklin Allen, who argues that a temporary nationalization of the affected banks is the only way to remove the top executives who helped trigger the financial crisis, while ensuring that the interests of taxpayers are valued over those of stockholders and bondholders. “This is not something the government should be doing in the long run,” says Allen. The banks should be nationalized “for however long it takes for things to get back to normal. I would imagine that would be less than three to five years.” Like other advocates of bank nationalization under the current circumstances, he points to the example of Sweden, which nationalized its banks during a crisis in the early 1990s and for the most part privatized them again once they had been stabilized.

  397. Clotpoll says:

    I’d say this “BC” character is bi, but he’s actually a better writer.

    Grim, can you out this person’s true identity?

  398. make money says:

    Grim (400),

    Nasty stuff.

  399. Al says:

    Clotpoll says:
    February 23, 2009 at 4:33 pm
    Al (375)-

    Look at it this way: maybe one day soon, a disgruntled employee (or ex-employee) walks into your office and solves everyone’s problems in about three minutes.

    Just one question: Why 3 minutes?

  400. Clotpoll says:

    link 78 (399)-

    These are all the excuses soci@lists love to use.

    It’s like somebody pissing on your foot and telling you it’s raining.

  401. W8TING says:

    Heard on cnbc…

    “Falling home prices is the answer to the housing problem…”

    Finally..somebody who gets it.

  402. grim says:

    Marketwatch reporting that JPM cut dividend from 38c to 5c a share.

  403. JBJB says:

    Skep [392]

    I hear ya, am juggling the same decision. Price manipulation and the velocity of RE taxes are a prevailing wind in the face of low rates and the measly 2-3% drop from peak prices. Not too mention that you know O is coming after your income and investments soon.

  404. Clotpoll says:

    Al (404)-

    Not everyone brings the right tools to do the job fast. Having to stop and reload is so inefficient.

    “Just one question: Why 3 minutes?”

  405. BC Bob says:

    BC,

    Why don’t you change your handle, you’re confusing folks.

  406. grim says:

    “BC” is John, c’mon the rub and tug comment was a dead giveaway.

  407. Clotpoll says:

    grim (411)-

    D’oh!

  408. pricedOut says:

    Where are we getting this money from?

    U.S. to pledge $900 million for Gaza rebuild

  409. grim says:

    Bye bye American dividend pie
    Wagoner drove his chevy to DC
    But the coffers were dry

  410. BC Bob says:

    “BC” is John

    JB,

    Blame it on a 7,100 Dow?

  411. grim says:

    And people call me grim?

    From Bloomberg:

    Taleb Says Crisis Is Harder to End Than Depression

    The financial crisis will be harder to end than the Great Depression and may force banks to be nationalized, “Black Swan” author Nassim Nicholas Taleb said.

  412. make money says:

    “BC” is John

    JB,

    Blame it on a 7,100 Dow?

    It’s only getting worse.

  413. BC says:

    This is john, remember I gave kudos to BC Bob at begining of day so I am playing mini me all day. 7,100 don’t bother me so much. But wow I talked to someone who has his after tax account mainly in stock and he was upset. I can see why. To save up a million you need to make 1.6 million as it is after taxes, then that left over one million you put into stocks to take a 50% haircut for a lost of 500,000 but hey you can write off 3K of that loss so in only 166 years you can write off the whole 500K loss. A million before tax in the 401K you never paid tax on first place and don’t need to deal with 3K carryforwards. I will be back to john tommorrow.

  414. Al says:

    Clot – Sorry to disappoint you, but I ma hardly a significant figure at my company (one of the ‘New Guys”) for anybody at my work to bother.

    I hope it will never come to scenario you are proposing.

    If something like this do happen, it will happed to more important folks.

    Bu I am getting a bit worried about you. You are starting to propose violence as a solution to problems a bit too often. Violence never solved problems…
    It’s just substitutes small problems with big ones… But again US governments does not understand this so I would not expect you to understand it either.

  415. Hard Place says:

    skep-tic says:
    February 23, 2009 at 4:39 pm
    well, count me as one externality of Mr. O’s housing bailout. I’ve been looking around to potentially buy a house since late last year, but haven’t been seeing any value.

    So I was contemplating renewing my lease for 1 yr. But the bailout announcement last week got me to thinking that this administration is going to do whatever it can to slow price declines, so over this weekend I ended up signing a 2 yr lease instead (and my rent was discounted for it). On top of this, I have the option to extend for a third year at the same rent if I want.

    I do not think I am atypical in my response to this plan. It creates a big incentive for buyers to stay out of the market until the price manipulation tactics are pulled

    Rents are going down over the next several years. Lots of supply depending on the neighborhood. Instead negotiate a one year lease with right to extend to a two year lease at your option.

  416. Sean says:

    In Argentina, hyperinflation was described as “More taxicabs, more prostitutes”.

    Perhaps owning a taxi medallion right now might not be a bad thing.

  417. make money says:

    Perhaps owning a taxi medallion right now might not be a bad thing.

    Sean,

    If the price goes up too much they will dilute you.

  418. sastry says:

    Grim #400…

    Can’t they use Manufacturer Warranty? May be a pain, but worth it.

    S

  419. BC says:

    You just described New York City in the 1980’s.

    Sean says:
    February 23, 2009 at 5:08 pm
    In Argentina, hyperinflation was described as “More taxicabs, more prostitutes”.

  420. SG says:

    One thing that I’m sure of, it’s going to be an exciting week. It’s my opinion that if the stock markets and the U.S. dollar both rally, then we will get the pullback in gold that Matt and Robert are predicting. If the Dow rallies and the dollar falls I expect gold will rise. If the dollar rallies and the stock markets fall I think gold will rise. And if the stock market and the dollar both fall, then stand back, cause gold is a goin’ ballistic.

    http://marketoracle.co.uk/Article9044.html

    Lot’s of IF’s, but is it valid?

  421. Frank says:

    #354,
    BC Bob says: Classic.
    Classic it’s, I am few thousand richer today. I love day trading.

  422. Hubba says:

    In the 1770’s, 1860’s, and 1940’s, violence solved alot of problems.

  423. make money says:

    gold is a goin’ ballistic.

    Sg,

    Yeah, it sounds about right.

  424. yikes says:

    even if we hit a 6900 tomorrow or later in the week, where’s the best guess where it ends?

    let’s say, conservatively, that it takes O’s job plan 3 months to kick in. does that mean unemployment #’s will remain around 500k a month until june 1?

    the libor is not looking good, either.

    nor is housing.

    could we realistically see a 5-handle on the DOW by May?

  425. BC Bob says:

    John,

    You are creeping me out. Let’s make believe that it’s tomorrow. Go back to John.

  426. BC Bob says:

    Yikes [429],

    You will see a 1M # on headline employment soon.

  427. BC Bob says:

    “Classic it’s, I am few thousand richer today. I love day trading.’

    Frank,

    Sick dude.

  428. grim says:

    New thread, move up.

Comments are closed.