Foreclosure (and short sale) machine still grinding

From Reuters:

US Foreclosure Sales Pick Up in Third Quarter

More U.S. homes in foreclosure were sold in the third quarter as lenders dealt with distressed properties at an earlier stage of the process, data from RealtyTrac showed on Thursday.

A total of 193,059 homes in some stage of foreclosure were sold in the third quarter, up 21 percent from the previous quarter. That was down 3 percent from a year ago.

So-called pre-foreclosure sales outstripped sales of homes already seized by lenders. Known as short sales,pre-foreclosure transactions occur when the homeowner is in default but the property has not yet been taken back by the bank.

Pre-foreclosure sales rose 22 percent to 98,125. At the same time, bank-owned home sales rose 19 percent to 94,934.

Short sales will likely exceed sales of bank-owned properties for the whole year as well, said Daren Blomquist, vice president of RealtyTrac.

“It fits with the mood of the market right now,” Blomquist said. “When we talk to real estate agents, they want more inventory.”

All foreclosure-related sales accounted for 19 percent of home sales, down from 20 percent in the previous quarter and the same level as a year ago.

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129 Responses to Foreclosure (and short sale) machine still grinding

  1. grim says:

    From CNBC:

    Wal-Mart mortgages could fuel the next bubble

    Too bad Wal-Mart doesn’t offer mortgages.

    If you insist on getting a mortgage from a big-box retailer, you have to go to Costco, which began offering them last April in a partnership with a New Jersey community bank, First Choice Bank.

    Nevertheless, one out of three people would consider taking out a mortgage at Wal-Mart, according to a survey released Monday by Carlisle & Gallagher Consulting Group.

    he Charlotte, N.C., management and technology consulting firm serves five of the nation’s top-eight mortgage originators and seven of the nation’s top-10 financial institutions. Its survey points out a competitive threat that its clients potentially face from popular retailers.

    “The average consumer goes into a bank a lot less often than a Costco or a Wal-Mart,” said Doug Hautop, the firm’s lending practice leader, in a telephone interview.

    Wal-Mart offers an array of relatively simple financial services, including checking, credit cards, money transfers, and it will do your tax returns, too. Its Sam’s Club warehouse stores even make small business loans. But if Wal-Mart were to make it big in the mortgage-lending business, the Earth might just tip on its axis.

  2. grim says:

    For those who feel strongly in the interest rate theory of housing recovery, Tim (from the old “Mess that Greenspan Made” blog has a great piece out:

    http://iaconoresearch.com/2012/12/05/how-fed-policy-distorts-home-prices/

  3. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  4. grim says:

    From Bloomberg:

    Short Sales of Homes Surge as Tax Break to Expire: Mortgages

    Homeowners and banks are accelerating sales of properties for less than the amount owed as a U.S. law that gives them a tax break expires at the end of the year.

    The transactions, known as short sales, increased by 35 percent in the third quarter from a year earlier, while sales of bank-owned homes dropped 20 percent, according to a report today by mortgage data seller Renwood RealtyTrac LLC. Together, they accounted for 41.5 percent of home purchases in the quarter.

    Short sales have accounted for as many as 1.1 million transactions since 2009, helping to reduce the inventory of homes owned by banks that can blight neighborhoods and flood the market. Barring a last-minute extension of the 2007 Mortgage Forgiveness Debt Relief Act, homeowners will be taxed on the forgiven principal. With Congress focused on the so-called fiscal cliff, federal spending cuts and tax-rate hikes set to kick in on Jan. 1, the law may not be extended, leading to a drop in short sales and a rise in foreclosures.

    “If you’re struggling to pay your mortgage, it’s not likely you can afford an extra $25,000 or $35,000 tax bill to avoid foreclosure,” said Edward Mills, a financial policy analyst at FBR Capital Markets in Arlington, Virginia. “Mortgage forgiveness has become part of fiscal cliff politics.”

    The Internal Revenue Service typically taxes forgiven debt as income to the debtor. For short sales, the average price tag was $94,896 below the mortgage on the property, according to the RealtyTrac report. Tacking that onto borrowers’ income would not only raise the amount of taxes due — it could push them into a more expensive tax bracket.

  5. grim says:

    RealtyTrac estimating 22% of Q3 sales in NJ were short.

    Seems way too high, unless someone has a more broad insight. 30y? I’m just not seeing it, no way, no how.

  6. Brian says:

    2 –
    Low interest rates might pull home prices higher but in the northeast, I think the tax burden pulls it in the other direction.

    Didn’t I read here that NJ prices lag the national home price increases?

  7. grim says:

    GSMLS did add a “Lender Approval Required” field (AKA short sales).

    Looking at Yes/Call vs Sales

    Sussex 66/400 – 16.5%
    Warren 33/254 – 13.0%
    Union 126/998 – 12.6%
    Passaic 81/646 – 12.5%
    Essex 104/1099 – 9.5%
    Bergen 108/1561 – 6.9% (searching agent remarks for the word (approval)
    Morris 83/1355 – 6.0%
    Somerset 60/996 – 6.0%
    Hunterdon 19/358 – 5.3%
    Total (North Jersey Less Bergen) 680/7665 – 8.9%

  8. grim says:

    Eh, searching for approval way overestimates the count because it includes sellers looking for “pre-approvals”. If I search by other variants (bank, lender, short), I get less than 60 for Bergen.

  9. grim says:

    Apple bringing one of the Mac assembly lines back to the US? Good show Tim!

  10. Fast Eddie says:

    Grim,

    The Ho-Ho-Kus house was on Brandywine. But of course, when there is three houses in Haughtytown to choose from, certainly it’s going to sell. I could nail a piece of sh1t to a stick and call it a house and it would sell if Muffin “needs” to have “that” address.

  11. Fast Eddie says:

    Grim,

    Is that house on Cottage Lane in USR still for sale at 719K?

  12. Anon E. Moose says:

    Grim [1];

    Why do these left-wing morons at NBC have a hard-on for Walmart? Just because you get your mortgage at Walmart doesn’t necessarily mean it exhibits poor lending standards. Who’s more likely to take a flyer on a bad risk borrower, a business with tons of margin and a marble-lined offices, where Uncle Sam’s got his back; or a thin-margin operation like Walmart?

    I don’t want to re-hash the whole debate about what part the “Community Reinvestment Act” played in the housing bubble, I fail to see how meeting your mortgage rep at Walmart v. your kitchen table changes the dynamics of the transaction. I have yet to be convinced that a major part of the problem was that at every step along the way, it was “other people’s money”. If we (because its all gov’t lending now) stop over-lending to broke deadbeats, it will not fail.

    On the other hand, if we assume (as the NBC media wing of the DNC does) that all of Walmart’s customers are broke deadbeats, and we assume, as the collectivists at DN/BC do, that business exist to lose money, then yeah, it will reinflate the bubble and blow up. If Walmart has a profit motive, but the customers are deadbeat, then it will fail as a business matter. Personally I trust Walmart more than the government to avoid an expensive explosion on that front. Or maybe the limousine liberals are wrong and Walmart’s customers are not predominantly broke hillbillies like they see on Honey Boo Boo, with a fair smattering of ‘underprivileged’ inner city denizens.

  13. Anon E. Moose says:

    Redo [12]

    … major part of the problem wasn’t

  14. grim says:

    10 – Yeah I went back and looked at the open house lists to see if it was that one, when I saw it wasn’t I chopped the post.
    11 – Still on, $719k, 137 dom

  15. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    South Jersey?

    RealtyTrac estimating 22% of Q3 sales in NJ were short.

  16. grim says:

    What’s the deal with Cottage, I remember someone saying not a pretty street. 32 Cottage looks like a darn nice place.

    I see two ugly multifamilies at the front of the street but lots of monster comps up near the end.

    Prior solds
    20 Cottage – $600k
    33 Cottage – $745k
    31 Cottage – $900k
    29 Cottage – $926k

    Actives
    32 Cottage – Asking $719k
    21 Cottage – Asking $895k

    Hell 20 Cottage is up as an approved short sale for $405k? That looks like a really nice deal if you are looking to put some money into it. That’s a pretty low cost of entry to USR. (Owner paid $600k in 2004).

  17. Nomad says:

    Anon,

    To your point, look at Buffets lending arm for the Clayton manufactured homes. Default rates were well below national averages and I believe it was as simples as these borrowers were required to have 10% down. So in this case, they have a job, enough income and discipline to save the 10% and by doing so, they have skin in the game.

    On paper, people who buy manufactured homes would also be WM customers. The Clayton homes are actually pretty nice btw.

    Anyone know what % of 30 yr fixed are assumable?

  18. Fast Eddie says:

    grim,

    Still on… Hmm… no yard but dynamite house. It’s up there as far as location but it really is nice. Holidays in this house would be like a post card. It’s like, one mile from my new job!! lol!

  19. Ernest Money says:

    Lend? Lend to whom?

  20. Fast Eddie says:

    grim,

    Cottage is dotted with a few shacks in between re-done and new houses. 32 Cottage is at the end, almost in the cul-de-sac with a few new homes there. I believe eventually the shacks will go bye-bye and be replaced by haughty homes.

  21. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Probably the replacement for the nearly defunct Mac Pro desktop. It’ll have a much higher price point than the consumer-targeted Mac Mini and Notebooks. It’s pretty obvious the existing Mac Pro desktop is going to be s-canned as it’s the only Mac that doesn’t have the new Thunderbolt bus.

    Apple bringing one of the Mac assembly lines back to the US? Good show Tim!

  22. grim says:

    Anyone know what % of 30 yr fixed are assumable?

    The only assumable 30 years I know of are VA loans, but I’ve never actually seen/dealt with one. I vaguely remember my broker saying he bought a home for his daughter years back and had her assume the loan, since his rate was far better than what she could get.

  23. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    That was the case 25 years ago too, when I took my NJ RE exam, only VA loans. I’ve often fantasized about a portable mortgage instead of an assumable one. A mortgage you could take with you from house to house, expanding or contracting as necessary without all the other overhead.

    The only assumable 30 years I know of are VA loans, but I’ve never actually seen/dealt with one. I vaguely remember my broker saying he bought a home for his daughter years back and had her assume the loan, since his rate was far better than what she could get.

  24. Fast Eddie says:

    Greek unemployment rate chart. My only question is, who pays for all the ponies?

    http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/11-2/Greek%20Unemployment%20Rate.jpg

  25. Fast Eddie says:

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Americans prefer letting tax cuts expire for the country’s top earners, as President Barack Obama insists, while support has declined for cutting government services to curb budget deficits, an Associated Press-GfK poll shows. Fewer than half the Republicans polled favor continuing the Bush-era tax cuts for the wealthy.

    There’s also a reluctance to trim Social Security, Medicare or defense programs, three of the biggest drivers of federal spending, the survey released Wednesday found. The results could strengthen Obama’s hand in his fiscal cliff duel with Republicans, in which he wants to raise taxes on the rich and cut spending by less than the GOP wants.

    Let it ride baby!! Every day should be Chr1stmas in America!

  26. All Hype - Mr. Oil, Mr. Gas, Mr. Coal says:

    “while support has declined for cutting government services to curb budget deficits”

    You are right Gary, let it ride! Uncle Ben has our back to the tune of 1+ trillion dollars a year to pay for it. Nothing like printing money out of thin air.

  27. Ernest Money says:

    Whatever the worst outcome of the fiscal cliff thingy can be, it will be.

  28. Ernest Money says:

    We are moving into an environment in which it will all be worst case/black swan- type outcomes.

  29. Ernest Money says:

    Let us pause to read something that is the product of thought and reasoning:

    “Sweeping changes are taking place at the state level as pension trustees and legislatures push for higher monthly contributions to pension plans, a later retirement age and lower annual cost-of-living adjustments for current and retired workers. Unions (those that don’t make Twinkles, in any event), are making the concessions because they can see the future absent shared sacrifice — the termination of defined benefit plans in favour of defined contribution plans. Be that as it may, employee contributions are going up — a de facto tax hike. And this will work directly against any upturn in consumer spending when you consider that the state and local government sector employ nearly 20 million people or 15% of the national job pie. So we will have less government, fewer entitlements and more whisperings that it isn’t just the $250,000+ high-income households that are going to experience tax increases and diminished disposable income growth. This is shared sacrifice. To think that the nation could have ever gone to war in Iraq and in Afghanistan under the Bush regime, putting our troops at great risk not to mention the emotional scars on their families, while here at home civilians would be allowed to enjoy tax cuts and a debt-financed consumption binge…. One has to wonder what events could provide positive momentum to GDP growth, push corporate earnings to record highs as the consensus predicts as early as next year, or generate any lasting inflation, for that matter. It’s the people that make these pricing decisions. Businesses can only price up to what consumers are willing to pay. It is households that determine whether or not we have inflation, not some bureaucrat in Washington who believes he has control over some printing press.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-12-05/david-rosenberg-shared-sacrifice

  30. yome says:

    Social Security can not spend more than the amount in the Trust Fund and what comes in.This is how the Law is set up so it can not add to the Deficit.But if you insist the Trust Fund is not Bonds that where bought just like Treasuries then you are right but that is not how it is set up.This are bonds guaranteed by the Federal Government.
    Medicare is not the problem,it is the cost of health care.We pay more than 2x other develop countries.Unless the rising cost is fixed there is no solution to this mess.

    “There’s also a reluctance to trim Social Security, Medicare or defense programs, three of the biggest drivers of federal spending”

  31. Brian says:

    Fighting to save blue state tax break

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/06/news/economy/state-local-tax-deductions/index.html?iid=Lead

    NEW YORK (CNNMoney)
    Democrats are expected to fight hard to preserve the tax deduction for state and local taxes, despite its more than $80 billion cost to the federal budget, during the fiscal cliff negotiations. A look at the states that benefit most from the deduction makes it clear why.
    Seven of the eight states where taxpayers make the greatest use of the deduction are deep blue on the political maps. They include California, the most populous state, and Illinois, where President Obama calls home.
    The states — which also include New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and Maryland — have among the highest state and local taxes, including property taxes that pay for running municipal government and school systems. They also have among the highest median incomes in the nation.

    No other tax break is as geographically concentrated. Nearly 90% of the state and local tax deductions filed by the nation’s taxpayers are from those seven high-wage, high-tax blue states, according to figures from the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

  32. Essex says:

    12. Why do folks hate Walmart? Is that a serious question?

  33. JJ's B.Se says:

    Bunch of BS, state and property tax deductions gets phased out big time in AMT. Aint that much of a break.

  34. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [32] Brian – kind of a double-edged stat. Stated another way, those 7 states, even with the benefit of that deduction are still net “depositers” to the Federal coffers. If that deduction goes away it just widens the spread between what those states pay in and what they receive back, right?

    No other tax break is as geographically concentrated. Nearly 90% of the state and local tax deductions filed by the nation’s taxpayers are from those seven high-wage, high-tax blue states, according to figures from the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

  35. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [35] HTML went awry.

  36. Anon E. Moose says:

    Sx [33];

    Why do folks hate Walmart? Is that a serious question?

    Nancy Pelosi, is that you?!?

  37. Anon E. Moose says:

    Brian [32];

    Nearly 90% of the state and local tax deductions filed by the nation’s taxpayers are from those seven high-wage, high-tax blue states, according to figures from the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center.

    Brian, I think that just speaks to the relative incomes the residents in those blue states. People don’t deduct anything if they can’t put together more deductions than the standard deduction.

    Same caviat applies when realtors trot out the canard “You can deduct your mortgage interest…” umm, well, yes… IF you deduct anything at all because you have enough deductions to meet the threshold to itemize. If you don’t itemize, there’s no benefit. In my own case, for many years I was right on the cusp of having a standard deduction’s worth of itemizable deductions — so I knew that mortgage interest would put me over the threshold.

  38. Essex says:

    37. No just another small town guy that watched WalMart decimate local businesses – You know like those hardware stores that sold those anachronistic well-made American tools.

  39. Brian says:

    Jobs Report Preview: Resist the Urge to Panic on Weakness Says Wilkinson

    http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/breakout/jobs-report-preview-resist-urge-panic-weakness-says-130744161.html;_ylt=ApkEq5h5e2Bqwqk6UWlfjZeiuYdG;_ylu=X3oDMTN1NG82cmR2BG1pdANGaW5hbmNlIEZQIE1lZ2F0cm9uIDIEcGtnAzViOTRlZDUwLTcxMWUtMzVjOS05NTU1LTJmNzg0ODQwYjA4NQRwb3MDMQRzZWMDbWVnYXRyb24EdmVyA2Y4Yzg4NDUwLTNmYjQtMTFlMi1iOTMxLWE2MGZlYTQ1Yzk2ZQ–;_ylg=X3oDMTFpNzk0NjhtBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

    According to Andrew Wilkinson, chief economic strategist at Miller Tabak, investors should expect a good number, but resist the urge to panic if it’s noisy and bad.

    “The background to this report is that we’ve seen quite a substantial pickup in the pace of hiring,” Wilkinson says in the attached video. “The three-month average gain is about 170,000, and that’s pretty good.” As for his own estimate, he’s expecting a number closer to 125,000.

    Why is he so optimistic? Because he says the New York-New Jersey region accounts for about 10% of GDP, and that Sandy, ultimately, was a regional problem. “Just because the storm hit the Northeast, that doesn’t necessarily affect conditions nationwide,” he says.

    That’s not to say there will be no effect, but his bet is that it will be less than many expect. And even if he’s wrong and the number comes in light, it probably won’t markedly alter his overall jobs thesis.

  40. Fast Eddie says:

    No just another small town guy that watched WalMart decimate local businesses…

    What until you see what the looming tax increases are going to do. It’ll be the daggar to the heart.

  41. Essex says:

    41. We are looking at another $8k a year in our household. Not pretty —

  42. Essex says:

    34. I feel ur pain brutha.

  43. Anon E. Moose says:

    Sx [42];

    We are looking at another $8k a year in our household. Not pretty –

    You must be one of those wealthy 1%-ers. What are you complaining about, then? This is what you wanted.

  44. Jason says:

    Fast Eddie[41]

    Exactly. When Wal-Mart knocks out some small businesses, the liberals get angry. But when the government does it in the form of increased regulations and higher taxes then it suddenly becomes, “nothing to see here.”

  45. grim says:

    Is Walmart the problem, or is it the people that shop there?

    Just wondering really, because when people shop there, aren’t they essentially voting with their dollar?

    USA Made Redwing boots, purchased at the local store, $300.
    Chinese-made boots at Walmart, $30.

    Schott leather jacket made in NYC – $700
    Chinese made “leather” jacket at Walmart – $50

    My USA made jeans cost more than $150 bucks, what are the Levis at Walmart these days, $20?

  46. Anon E. Moose says:

    Sx [39];

    No just another small town guy that watched WalMart decimate local businesses – You know like those hardware stores that sold those anachronistic well-made American tools.

    Progress marches on. You want what small stores used to carry and are willing to pay for it? Try the internet. If the small stores went under is wasn’t Walmart that did it, it was their customer base that deserted them. Maybe the portion of the customer base that was content with Walmart goods and didn’t need or want the higher ‘quality’ (and higher price that came with it) from the small shop got tired of subsidizing those who did. You know, your stumping for ‘small stores’ sounds much like the PBS model that liberals are so fond of: Everyone needs to pay for this great thing that we like because its so great because we think its great – QED.

  47. 30 year realtor says:

    Regarding shortsale…not seeing as many as a year ago. If you didn’t short sell by now you never will. Tax on phantom income takes away any incentive from selling short. 22% is a monster number. Maybe in hardcore inner city areas during the height of shortsales it hit or exceeded that number but not now.

  48. joyce says:

    47-48

    I think the inflationary monetary system resulting in stagnant nominal wages and declining real wages coupled with Federal policy encouraging Big business plays a role in why people want and/or have to shop there.
    I don’t blame Walmart (except for lobbying they do to foster those policies, IF any); I blame the system.

  49. joyce says:

    (44)

    Yo,

    “The United States is not in a budget crisis, ”

    I stopped reading there

  50. joyce says:

    Ok I lied, I’m addicted to reading this propoganda:

    “Right now, our creditors are willing to lend us money,”

    The Federal Reserve is buying (printing) about 90% of all new Treasury Bond issuances, plus more MBS.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-03/treasury-scarcity-to-grow-as-fed-buys-90-of-new-bonds.html

  51. joyce says:

    Health care in the United States is 50% to 90% more expensive per person than it is in other developed countries

    The USA pays for the advanced technology and drugs that the rest of the world pays for. We will pay for the replacement cost + R&D while the other countries say sell it to us for replacement cost + a small margin or we will not enforce your patent protection. So the drug companies bill us for it all, make a small margin around the world… oh and also lobbied the FED gov to pass laws banning reimportation.

    “Although costs in Medicare and Medicaid aren’t growing out of control,”

    Medical spending by the FED gov went from $53 billion in 1980 to approximately $850 billion last year.

    market-ticker has great solutions:
    http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?singlepost=2138377
    http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=214571

  52. joyce says:

    The first sentence in (53) above should have quotes around it as it also came from the article in (44)

  53. Hello There. I found your weblog using msn. This is a very well written article. I’ll be sure to bookmark it and return to learn extra of your helpful info. Thanks for the post. I’ll definitely return.

  54. Essex says:

    You are wasting you time with these explanations.

  55. JJ's B.Se says:

    Walmart vs. USA made and sold by a local store is similar to my rotor rooter story from last week.

    My main sewer line had bad pitch went straight down to lower level den where it connected to a bathroom, slop sink and washer and went almost horizontal from there to sewer line and every year I had backups. I wanted to fix problem before new bathroom went in.

    Call rotor roter guy comes and tells me for like 8k I will cut main sewer line and run new PCV pipe around walls with a great pitch so nothing will back up. Create second line out of PCV for lower level plumbing that will run out to a sump pump and then into main sewer line, licensed plumber to sign off and we will clean up and dispose of old sewer piped.

    I then tell him you want me to spend 8K to protect a 7K bathroom I am putting in. That is way too much. The he goes well he is a corporation, he has franchise fees, pays medical, vacation time to employees, pays insurance, pays workers enough so they have houses and cars and you know the town inspectors charge fees as they have a lot of benefits and get paid well. I go I cant do 8k, give me you written estimate.

    I then a non-licensed plumber working off the books, moon lightening. He is actually a full time plumber for a landlord in Manhattan. He comes with two men also working off the books. All three men come on a Saturday their day off and do job for 4k. What was that 4k, materials to do job, cost to get them to and from job site and payment to do the actual work.

    Honestly the roter rooter guy seemed nice, he had a fancy truck, neat uniform, he owns a house and a car, the plumber who owns franchise appeared wealthy. They take vacations, have great medical, maybe a pension. But bottom line I want a sewer pipe fixed, why should I pay double. That is why folks go to walmart to buy china junk. I just want to pay for product plus a small mark up, not the local guy who thinks his kids braces and wifes new caddie somehow should be charged back to me.

  56. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [47] grim – I think they’re voting with our dollar. (EBT, Welfare, WIC, SNAP, etc.). The poverty line is drawn somewhere between those who shop at Walmart and those that shop at Target.

    Just wondering really, because when people shop there, aren’t they essentially voting with their dollar?

  57. cobbler says:

    Walmart contributed to the hollowing of the middle class in 2 ways.
    First, by destroying the local small businesses – the money that would have stayed around as their profits or (higher than Walmart) wages/benefits, and contributed to the local growth, instead is moving to the corporate profits. Shareholders largely don’t live where the Walmart stores are.
    Second, by putting a tremendous pressure on the suppliers and making it “all about price”, it forced even those otherwise willing to continue making stuff in the U.S., to go offshore – otherwise they wouldn’t be able to compete for the Walmart business. I don’t think there is a single non-monopolistic supplier to Walmart with better than 10% margin – that means even “non-outsourcable” suppliers are forced to squeeze their workforce (Hostess cakes, anyone?) to improve the cost structure, and then Walmart buyers force the supplier into another reduction next year, and so on.
    Walmart made more consumer goods affordable to the poor; but the side effect of this was to increase the number of the poor…

  58. jcer says:

    JJ, that guy at 8k is paying a bunch of other people and is paying taxes. On top of that his work is guaranteed, if your basement fills up with sh*t because your non licensed plumber messed up that will most likely be your problem. 4k isn’t a ton to pay to have it done correctly and if you did it un-permitted who knows if it was done correct.

  59. JJ's B.Se says:

    Also here is my oil tank story. Big name company wanted the following to get rid of old tank.
    $390 pump out fee for pumper truck
    $1.50 a gallon on top of $390 to pump out (around $300)
    $90 tank disposal fee
    $250 tank removal fee

    Total of around $1,000

    I got DEC to pump it out for free, paid $250 to some guy off the books to cut it out, fill in cement and push to side of house and call scrap metal place who picked it up for free.

    The US economy is in the crapper as no one makes enough to hire on the books people anymore.

    Also get this there is a oil tank install permit, something like $100 bucks. But since I did not get that I dont need a oil tank disposal permit as CO says one oil tank and guess what I got one oil tank.

    Also the towns are falling into a black hole, by charging excess fees and requiring licensed contractors, plumbers and electricians with workers comp and insurance to do work it encourage people to do things not to code.

    For example lots of lower income folks, widows, retirees in my town got house wrecked and got $31,900 from FEMA to rebuilt. A licensed contractor will charge 5k for a rip out, fuel company 9k to do new furnance, mold abatement 4k, licence electrician 10K for new box and all new wires and around 2k for permits and maybe a plumber to look at backed up pipes. .

    So now I am at 31,900 full FEMA budget for repair and I have lights, how water, heat, plumbing, mold abated and a shell of a house.

    Off the books etc. the above would cost 12k. Leaving almost 20K to sheet rock, and rebuild. Based on my math if I did not do any upgrades and put back my rooms at base model everything and do wall to wall, etc. I could have done whole project on what FEMA paid me. BOOM.

    FEMA and flood insurance dont often bake in LI prices. They go here is how much it costs then pay someone to do it. For instance FEMA assumes for non skilled labor such as rip out etc your are paying $7.5 an hour. Meanwhile I got a quote from a licensed guy to spray mold spray at $1,600. I did it myself, took a few hours and I used less than $200 in chemicals. It is a four hour job. Guy wanted over $300 an hour. FEMA will quote a handiman salary to replace a light switch. Nassau country claims only a licensed electrician can do it and they charge $250 a switch.

    Houses are going to burn or have plumbing problems with all the off the books people and folks with insurance will have big fights with insurance company when they see the bills they are putting in at LI prices.

    The whole home flipping, landlord business on Long Island is based on off the books and illegals and things done half ass. My renovation would easily cost 125k on the books to code meanwhile I am paying maybe 45k. Does 125K add value to my house NO> at best my 45K renovation will only add 25k to my house as folks dont pay extra for new plumbing and furnaces and instulation, they like shiny appliances and granite.

  60. joyce says:

    I agree with your sentiments but someone having a license and/or some town flunky giving you a permit afterward is no guarantee that the work was performed correctly.

    60.jcer says:
    December 6, 2012 at 1:45 pm
    JJ, that guy at 8k is paying a bunch of other people and is paying taxes. On top of that his work is guaranteed, if your basement fills up with sh*t because your non licensed plumber messed up that will most likely be your problem. 4k isn’t a ton to pay to have it done correctly and if you did it un-permitted who knows if it was done correct.

  61. joyce says:

    cobbler,

    That’s an awful lot of destruction for one company to do.

  62. JJ's B.Se says:

    I read his contract. His gurantee is he will come back and fix for free and is only liable for $250 dollars for other damages. Also the plumber himself does not do the work he signs off. And no guarantee plumber will ever visit job site. He can choose to sign off based on what workers told him to do.

    I did hire a licenced electrician to do my new kitchen and he charged me an arm and a leg and gave me sign-offs. Not only did he screw the pooch he did not even buy the pooch breakfast the next day.

    Guy shoved hockey puck in crawl space to wires under country rather than running along ceiling from electrical box. When water filled up it shorted out kitchen, idiot cut big holes for small wires, jammed insulation in hole and covered up which caused water to flood kitchen from lower level and even outside, dope had one or two non gfi outlets that shorted out. All stuff I had the non-licensed guy fix. When I say non-licensed it does not mean non qualified. My off the books plumber was a licensed New York City plumber who is employed full time by a large landlord. But according to Long Island he is non-licensed as he is not licensed there. I also had a full time electrician private sector do the electrical work.

    Remember off the books does not mean non-qualified. I had my main electrical wire from pole to house replaced by a non licensed electrician. He is a nation grid full time employee working on the weekend and national grid does not pay for certificate.

    For fun I looked up how I could qualify to be a licensed contractor in Long Island, form says there is a $400 fee and you have to show evidence of workers comp for any employees and insurance. Note does not make any mention if you know what you are doing. A 99 year old mexican women with $400 bucks and proof of insuance can be a licensed contractor.

    jcer says:
    December 6, 2012 at 1:45 pm

    JJ, that guy at 8k is paying a bunch of other people and is paying taxes. On top of that his work is guaranteed, if your basement fills up with sh*t because your non licensed plumber messed up that will most likely be your problem. 4k isn’t a ton to pay to have it done correctly and if you did it un-permitted who knows if it was done correct.

  63. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Walmart’s Internal Compensation Documents Reveal Systematic Limit On Advancement

    Low-level workers typically start near minimum wage, and have the potential to earn raises of 20 to 40 cents an hour through incremental promotions. Flawless performance merits a 60 cent raise per year under the policy, regardless of how much time an employee has worked for the company. [Click here to read the full pay policy: http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/Walmart_0.pdf ] As a result, a “solid performer” who starts at Walmart as a cart pusher making $8 an hour and receives one promotion, about the average rate, can expect to make $10.60 after working at the company for 6 years.

    A Walmart corporate spokesman confirmed the existence of the compensation document. He said the company pays fair wages while providing substantial opportunities for motivated, hard-working people to work their way up to higher-paying jobs.

    full article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/16/walmarts-internal-compensation-plan_n_2145086.html

  64. jcer says:

    I agree with JJ on cutting some costs, he is right the mold abatement guys are crooks, a lot of things that require permits are ridiculous replacing existing things so they require you to meet the newest code, replacing 10ft of romex and a few switches that were already there and got wet is not the biggest risk, you won’t have any more of a fire risk. Same goes for pulling some pex plumbing, it is relatively simple and the standard installation specifications for a proper install are like 2 pages long, I can verify if the rules were followed, half the time the licensed guys aren’t following the manufactures specs either and they’ll still get the building department to sign off. DWV is where I draw the line, completely new wiring is where I draw the line, things that actually require someone to know the code for functional and safety reasons. The franchise guy is more than even the local contractor but that extra 4k is paying for some sense of a guarantee on the work. I’m saying that the franchise guy by the time he pays full taxes, corporate takes there cut and the permit fees actually takes home less than the guy doing the side job, who is out $500 on materials, $200 on day laborers and took home $3300 that he didn’t report as income.

  65. JJ's B.Se says:

    Why do they deserve more?

    Easily I could be making 5k-10k a week on the southshore busting my butt fixing peoples houses. I know how to do rip-outs, mold abatement, sheetrocking, basic plumbing and wiring and know who to hire to do what I can do and where to get an endless supply of unskilled workers.

    The walmart folk have no drive and also dont want to work hard. I could easily pay a walmart clerk with a good work ethic $200-$350 a day for next year to rebuild homes. But really most are mentally challenged, lazy or just out of jail or bored housewives or snot nosed kids. None are really thinkers and workers. That is why they get paid so little.

    The Original NJ ExPat says:
    December 6, 2012 at 1:58 pm

  66. jcer says:

    I know all about the licensed contractors and the fact that I can hire the guy who actually does the work to come on a Saturday and work the whole day for $250, it is crap and as long as your guy is actually good you are safe for small jobs I have always had the guy, not the real licensed contractor come. Everyone knows of someones cousin or some such person who is in the trades, we always had my uncle the electrician come to do the work, the truth is a friend or family member is way more likely to do a good job working on the side than some licensed tradesman who sends a lackey.

  67. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    There are some hard workers at Walmart. Except they work 90 hours per week on salary and then die. Then Walmart collects more money on their COLI policies:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/04/04/104291/–quot-Dead-Peasants-quot-at-Wal-Mart

    I don’t really have a problem with their wages or comp practices. If you’re willing to work for $8/hour, fine. Get a .40 raise a year later, well that’s 5%.

  68. JJ's B.Se says:

    jcer material was pretty expensive. $600 for sump pump alone. He gave me receipt and warranty, he jackhammered it into the cement in crawlspace. Cut out 20 feet of cast iron sewer piping full run along wall 30 plus fee of plastic piping, then cut another ditch to run piping from shower, sink, washer, to sump then to the main sewer line. Then install new venting to run sewer fumes to roof then run electrical from box along room into new sumpump, then come back next day to check on it after we had a day or so of using it to check for leaks and provide a guarantee in which in next few years if breaks he will fix for free.

    It took three guys a full ten hour day to do with no breaks hunched over in a crawl space.
    Rotorrooter would not have done electrical or cement work and gave me a cheaper sumppump.

  69. Ernest Money says:

    Barter and off-the-books labor for pieces of eight. We’re all headed there.

    LI is there.

  70. JJ's B.Se says:

    I am making my guy very nervous. I want him to do it all. He has been great in getting people. Men are Men in times of crisis.

    I dont hire guys for little jobs, I know how to do little jobs. I have seen folks order boilers off the internet and have the off the books contractor put it in. That is where I draw the line. Rewiring a house is just a jig saw puzzel.

    jcer says:
    December 6, 2012 at 2:11 pm

    I know all about the licensed contractors and the fact that I can hire the guy who actually does the work to come on a Saturday and work the whole day for $250, it is crap and as long as your guy is actually good you are safe for small jobs I have always had the guy, not the real licensed contractor come. Everyone knows of someones cousin or some such person who is in the trades, we always had my uncle the electrician come to do the work, the truth is a friend or family member is way more likely to do a good job working on the side than some licensed tradesman who sends a lackey.

  71. JJ's B.Se says:

    Actually there are no banks in my town anymore none survived. I keep sending my wife to get cash two towns over. The stores that are open most dont have credit card machines or phones. Contractors are driving around with 30K in their pockets. Wife paid my guy 5k today for materials.

    Ernest Money says:
    December 6, 2012 at 2:14 pm

    Barter and off-the-books labor for pieces of eight. We’re all headed there.

    LI is there.

  72. jcer says:

    JJ sounds like a good deal, I was just pointing out that because he most likely won’t pay taxes or send money to corporate as a franchise operator he keeps more of his money. I don’t doubt the plumber working on the side did a better job for less money, but the reason is lower overhead, lack of taxes, the ability to hire low cost illegal immigrant help, etc.

  73. chicagofinance says:

    The End Is Nigh (Fiscal Cliff Edition):
    Reid: The GOP Is Like The New York Jets
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkHj-6iHSZ0

  74. xolepa says:

    ‘I have seen folks order boilers off the internet and have the off the books contractor put it in. That is where I draw the line.’

    I don’t order boilers on the internet. I have local plumbing houses to buy from. Cheaper than internet, Weils Mclain I get 30% off. And BTW, I have installed 3 of them new, no help. And that’s by a guy who got has MBA 30 years ago.

  75. Brian says:

    JJ, just install a sewer main check valve.

    http://www.backwater-valves.com/

    Makes it exit only. I’m sure you’re wife has already told you that.

  76. zieba says:

    Gotta love this place…

    xolepa,

    A buddy is looking for a cheap furnace to replace one which just cracked its heat exchanger. 100KBTU, efficiency, features or warranty are a non issue as boiler needs to last 5 years tops (used unit would work). Even better if it came with a competent non uniformed, non franchised installer.

    Any leads I can pursue?

  77. zieba says:

    @ 77: hahahahha. Excellent!

    because of that, beer snob will forgive your transgressions for the month of December (all those buds you’ve pounded).

  78. Carlito says:

    Why I don’t like Walmart? Call me elitist, but I hate that going there I get no help from employees: either their are deaf or dumb…and by the later I do not mean that “can’t speak”….there some of those also. I prefer to pay a couple of extra $$ and go to a high-end place, something like Home Depot, or Costco, where I can ask where the stuff I am looking is.

  79. Brian says:

    I’m more of a miller high life guy

  80. xolepa says:

    Zieba, buy a Goodman. That’s the cheapest you can get. Aarons used to carry them. Don’t know now, though. I installed two furnaces of those myself 21 years ago for a two family I was selling. You are correct in that these are furnaces, not boilers? Big difference, of course. BTW, with all of the no-permit talk. You can install these yourself, as long as they have no AC exchangers attached. You need fed paperwork for that, being freon related. Just so happens, I have R-134a certification, which is interchangeable with some, but not all freon certs. Now if you can install yourself, just like JJ, you can keep the local snoopers out of your hair. But I covered my butt by calling the gas company do check. They don’t snitch out to the locals, as least back then.

  81. xolepa says:

    Zieba, never buy a used heating unit. One small crack on the exhaust end and you’re screwed. CO will kill you or tenants

  82. Anon E. Moose says:

    JJ [61];

    The US economy is in the crapper as no one makes enough to hire on the books people anymore.

    Don’t worry, JJ, Obama will create a new governement agency to solve that problem for us.

  83. Anon E. Moose says:

    JJ [73];

    Actually there are no banks in my town anymore none survived.

    Even the Catholic Credit Union? My faith is shattered… ;-)

  84. Anon E. Moose says:

    Carlito [80];

    Why I don’t like Walmart? Call me elitist, but I hate that going there

    Not elietist at all. Your money, your choice. I prefer Target… the worst thing that happened to Target in Westbury was when the KMart around the corner closed. All the KMart shoppers descened on the Target and the place looked like a sh!t storm blew through within two months. A year later, Walmart goes into the old KMart space, and Target starts to look like a Target again.

  85. JJ's B.Se says:

    The wave that came up from the Long Beach Boardwalk went all the way up to Atlantic Ave and stopped. Jesus must have saved them.

    Anon E. Moose says:
    December 6, 2012 at 3:54 pm

    JJ [73];

    Actually there are no banks in my town anymore none survived.

    Even the Catholic Credit Union? My faith is shattered… ;-)

  86. Anon E. Moose says:

    Con’t [86];

    But there’s a difference between preferring another store over Target and voting with your dollars, and the liberal trope about running them out of town. Tpyicall liberalism, thinking they know better how other people should be able to spend their money.

    Speak of which, ExPat [ I think they’re voting with our dollar. (EBT, Welfare, WIC, SNAP, etc.).] You just made a great argument that our welfare state is too generous.

  87. JJ's B.Se says:

    Funny but true story, after my father died and we were broke our furnance died. After a week in the cold my mother called the Irish Plumber to take a look at the old beast. One look at a recently widowed poor woman with four kids he goes dont worry I will put it in for labor only, I will get you one for free.

    Day of, I actually helped him put it in, and did the leg work, running to and from truck carrying parts etc. A few hours later my Mom goes to him thank you so much and hands him some hot coffee and biscuits it was nice of him to do that for a poor widow it was charitable and very nice and my sons would be more than happy to help you for a few weeks for free to pay for furnance.

    Irish guys goes what charity? I told some rich jew in Great Neck that his perfectly good furnance was inefficient and he needed a new one, I just carted that one over here and installed it, you paid me for my hours and your son helped me for free and you served me food. Does not sound like charity to me,.I made plenty of money today.

    xolepa says:
    December 6, 2012 at 3:44 pm

    Zieba, never buy a used heating unit. One small crack on the exhaust end and you’re screwed. CO will kill you or tenants

  88. JJ's B.Se says:

    There is a big difference between walmart and target. One caters to black trash the other store caters to white trash.

  89. Essex says:

    88. Geezus don’t you ever shut up? Christ you are a freakin’ moron.

  90. yome says:

    53 joyce, very good article

  91. Jill says:

    JJ: I agree AND disagree with you. Using unlicensed or uninsured people can get you burned, especially if someone gets hurt and you are the one who gets sued. That said, I am starting to not blame people for bypassing the permit process. My town is ridiculous about this — they want to see receipts for the hardware used for the deck, they want drawings that show exactly the space between the footings — and they expect either that you hire an architect or that you yourself are one. The fee for a deck is not based on how big the deck is but how much the contractor charges you. Meanwhile, my sister in NC says she never asked for insurance even when she built her house or when having renovations done to her rentals.

  92. JJ's B.Se says:

    Jill a deck way up in the air I could get killed if it collaspes I would go legal route. A deck on the ground no.

    Neighbor next door with insurance hired licensed folks, who while he was at work were smoking pot and drinking beers while wiring. But he has a permit.

  93. JJ's B.Se says:

    Jill, I don’t like the man. I hate the man.

    Funny part is by law you need a search warrant to come into my house so I dont really understand the big deal if I do work inside without a permit you cant see from outside.

    Inspectors are like Vampires you have to invite them in.

  94. Juice Box says:

    re # 94- no worries we will just import more workers and we will be up to 400 million
    population to pay for those retirees.

  95. Essex says:

    IBM now employs more in India than the US.

  96. joyce says:

    96

    JJ’s back, and back to repeating the same jokes. I know you’ve been gone awhile, but can you at least space ’em out a bit better though?

  97. JJ's B.Se says:

    Well did not have time to come up with new jokes.

    Serious note. I still have not bought a new car yet. Any suggestions. Wife has new truck so I dont need a kid hauler. Just has to sit five in a pinch.
    joyce says:
    December 6, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    96

    JJ’s back, and back to repeating the same jokes. I know you’ve been gone awhile, but can you at least space ‘em out a bit better though?

  98. JJ's B.Se says:

    Indian Business Machines

    Essex says:
    December 6, 2012 at 4:47 pm

    IBM now employs more in India than the US.

  99. xolepa says:

    Had to have my hot tub wired this past summer – all paperwork on unit states no warranty in effect unless done by licensed electrician. Hire guy who did work in the past for my business. He sends over lackey, foreigner. 3 times failed inspection. Last time failed, I called inspector and said I am doing it myself as the electrician/owner (old guy) and his two sons walked away from the job. I take out the conduit that held the wire from main box to outdoor shutoff switch. It was supported under the deck about two feet off ground. Conduit was full of water. They cheated. They never passed the conduit into the house through the foundation. Instead, they butted the conduit against the house. Under the deck, you couldn’t see what they did. I bought more conduit and the proper wire, which they never used. I finished the job and passed inspection first time thru. I also kept 35 feet of their 8 gauge 4 wire romex cable. That’s expensive stuff.

    Never paid them a dime.

  100. JJ's B.Se says:

    Smart local town employees will submit bill to fema get repaid 20 million then use money to stuff their pensions, OT and free medical for life

    Juice Box says:
    December 6, 2012 at 4:59 pm

    A cool $20 mil bond for another boardwalk in Belmar a town of 5,900-residents…

    http://www.nj.com/monmouth/index.ssf/2012/12/belmar_unanimously_approves_20_million_bond_ordinance_to_rebuild_boardwalk.html

  101. joyce says:

    I was referring to the fact you said that a day or two ago this week.

    100.JJ’s B.Se says:
    December 6, 2012 at 4:52 pm
    Well did not have time to come up with new jokes.

    joyce says:
    December 6, 2012 at 4:48 pm

    96

    JJ’s back, and back to repeating the same jokes. I know you’ve been gone awhile, but can you at least space ‘em out a bit better though?

  102. cobbler says:

    joyce [63]
    That’s an awful lot of destruction for one company to do.
    Yes – but with more than 15% of total retail sales they fully dominate both retail space and consumer products industry. When Ma Bell had been a (legal) monopoly it used its power to bring the future Nobel Prize winners to Bell Labs and do more science than MIT or Berkeley, and support a lot of pension funds with its dividends. When now Walmart is a monopoly (for all practical purposes) it uses its power to turn middle class America to $hit and support the Waltons with its dividends.

  103. Ernest Money says:

    When TSHTF, I will make cobbler my donkey.

  104. Essex says:

    107. You mean like in Shrek?

  105. Ernest Money says:

    That’s an insult to Donkey.

  106. Ernest Money says:

    I mean more like a mangy critter that you whip to make ’em drag stuff around.

  107. cobbler says:

    Clot: I think people suffering from the acute alcoholic psychosis shouldn’t be allowed to manage liquor stores. What do you specifically dislike in my post? Do you plan to get a part-time job at Walmart?

  108. chicagofinance says:

    I worked at AT&T. This post is so ignorant, it causes me physical pain…..

    cobbler says:
    December 6, 2012 at 6:25 pm
    joyce [63]
    That’s an awful lot of destruction for one company to do.
    Yes – but with more than 15% of total retail sales they fully dominate both retail space and consumer products industry. When Ma Bell had been a (legal) monopoly it used its power to bring the future Nobel Prize winners to Bell Labs and do more science than MIT or Berkeley, and support a lot of pension funds with its dividends. When now Walmart is a monopoly (for all practical purposes) it uses its power to turn middle class America to $hit and support the Waltons with its dividends.

  109. Anon E. Moose says:

    Chfi [112];

    A lefty never lest the facts interfere with a good “Two Minute Hate”. I’ll take experience over opinion every time.

  110. Anon E. Moose says:

    Money, watching Liverpool slum it in Europa League. And they had a reality show? Must have been a curse like Jets/Hard Knocks. :-)

  111. cobbler says:

    Chi:
    I didn’t work at AT&T; I fully believe there were many overpaid and underworked people in the corporate structure. I am sure there was a lot of waste and operational inefficiency. By the way, based on your age I don’t think you’d ever worked for the pre-broken up AT&T.
    I am friends with several people who used to work for the Bell Labs. One of them (now a chaired professor at Harvard, member of NAS, etc.) had revolutionized his field of science. His research would have done much more for America’s people and industry had he been allowed to continue at the Labs.

  112. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    What cobbler said,

    Hopefully the buried and unread last post, but:

    Chi:
    I didn’t work at AT&T; I fully believe there were many overpaid and underworked people in the corporate structure. >>>True

    I am sure there was a lot of waste and operational inefficiency. >>>True

    By the way, based on your age I don’t think you’d ever worked for the pre-broken up AT&T. >>> Can neither confirm or deny.

    I am friends with several people who used to work for the Bell Labs. One of them (now a chaired professor at Harvard, member of NAS, etc.) had revolutionized his field of science. His research would have done much more for America’s people and industry had he been allowed to continue at the Labs. >>>Meh. Maybe yes, maybe no. I’m guessing he makes less money now.

  113. cobbler says:

    ExPat: actually, much more…

  114. McDullard says:

    Cobbler, seconding your observation.

    Many of the techies in Bell Labs and offshoots are simple people that are very smart, hard working, passionate about their work, and made sustained contributions to the field.

    The soul-less bean-counting blood suckers (“financial experts”, “restructuring experts”, or Little Romneys) destroyed most of Bell Labs. They were even stupid… They’d offer sweet buyouts to employees, let them go, and immediately hire them as contractors for a much higher pay. They screwed up research programs (with ridiculously short deadlines before canning the programs) and cut a lot of what they couldn’t understand. Almost like barbarians burning large libraries because if they can’t understand it, it must be useless.

    Expat, really? As an ex-NJ person, you think Walmart is something better than Bell Labs?

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  117. Ernest Money says:

    moose (114)-

    Scousers are almost as dysfunctional as the Gooners. Or cobbler.

  118. Ernest Money says:

    stu (116)-

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    Third World, dead ahead.

  119. Ernest Money says:

    Anybody know how good the weed is at the new pot dispensary?

    If we follow the CA arc, I should have an illegal storefront weed parlor in my town within the year.

  120. Ernest Money says:

    BTW, I am for the full legalization of all drugs.

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