So much for Bergen…

From the Star Ledger:

Less income and cheaper homes: How Bergen County has changed in a decade

Bergen County residents are earning less, spending more time commuting to work and have seen their homes continue decrease in value – a trend that began after the Great Recession of 2008.

But according to the annual release of data by the U.S. Census Bureau, residents in the most populous county in New Jersey fare better than their counterparts in other counties in the state and nation when it comes to income and home values.

The median household income in Bergen County was $85,806 in 2011-2015, a 4.1 percent decline from 2005-09 when median income was about $3,646 more. Statewide, the median household income was $72,093 – a nearly 5 percent decline over 2005-2009.

Bergen County municipalities with the highest incomes include Upper Saddle River ($169,301); Demarest ($163,571); and Ho Ho Kus ($162,386). Municipalities with the lowest incomes include Garfield ($45,469); Lodi ($50,774); and Fairveiw ($53,846).

Home values in the county declined by 8.5 percent with homes worth $41,300 less in 2011-2015 than the period before. Statewide, homes were worth nearly 20 percent less in 2011-2015 than in 2005-2009.

A downturn in housing swept New Jersey a decade ago, and many homeowners in Bergen County are reluctant to sell at current prices. A recent analysis by The Record found that median home values in North Jersey in 2016 were about where they were in late 2003 or early 2004.

Nearly every town in Bergen County saw drops in home prices, according to the latest data. But the hardest-hit towns were those that already had weak home values.

This entry was posted in Demographics, Economics, Employment, North Jersey Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

50 Responses to So much for Bergen…

  1. Fast Eddie says:

    A recent analysis by The Record found that median home values in North Jersey in 2016 were about where they were in late 2003 or early 2004.

    No sh1t? And it’s probably been that long since I found what I wanted.

  2. grim says:

    Question for the finance (or financially savvy) folks.

    Looking to setup an investment account for the little one with the intent of putting aside some money to buy a car, pay for a wedding, post-grad, down payment, etc. At this point the 529 is fully covered and taken care of, so I’d like to focus on the other big ticket items coming 15-20 years down the road.

    Ideally, I’d like to start something with no big dollar upfront investments, but that gives me an automatic monthly contribution option with the lowest fee structure possible. Obviously a bank savings account ain’t going to do it. Not talking about anything extravagant, but a couple hundred bucks a month, plus birthday, xmas, and other gifts.

    The 529 is with T. Rowe – and while it would be nice to keep it there, they are looking for at least $10k to avoid service fees.

    Joint account? Separate? Trust?

  3. Fast Eddie says:

    You mean, you’re not willing to drop 815K on this gem @ $17,096 in taxes

    http://www.njmls.com/listings/index.cfm?action=dsp.info&mlsnum=1646364&dayssince=15&countysearch=false

  4. grim says:

    FE – there was a funny article about South Jersey complaining they get the shaft when it comes to state spending compared to North Jersey.

    They don’t pay taxes like that, that’s for sure.

  5. Fast Eddie says:

    Sold for 615K in 2004 and that’s what it will eventually sell for:

    http://www.njmls.com/listings/index.cfm?action=dsp.info&mlsnum=1636975&dayssince=15&countysearch=false

  6. Fast Eddie says:

    grim,

    Someone needs to tell the residents of South Jersey that it’s going to be annexed and renamed North Arkansas.

  7. Fast Eddie says:

    Grim,

    Vanguard or Fidelity, joint account, S&P 500 Index fund for the little one. Set up a savings account now, if you haven’t already, custodial and leave it that way even after the little one turns 18.

  8. Anon E. Moose, saying 'Come back, JJ' says:

    Lost his Gourd [yesterday];

    Chris Christie messed up with the tunnel. Fine, cancel it, but come up with a quick plan to get another tunnel plan put in place. That’s the greatest investment we could make with our tax dollars. Tunnels to the city are like injecting a vein into a heart that pumps pure gold. Get as many veins injected as you can!! Use our location to our advantage.

    That must be why heroin junkies are so healthy… all those holes they poked in their veins. O_o

  9. The Great Pumpkin says:

    “New Jersey long has witnessed companies migrate out of state, fleeing its high cost of business. But when the maker of Sharpie pens and Elmer’s Glue announced in the spring that it would move its headquarters from low-cost Georgia to high-cost New Jersey, it was as if the sun had set in the east.

    A spokeswoman for Newell Brands said the move to Hoboken shouldn’t have come as a surprise. Employers are trying to attract highly skilled millennials. Why wouldn’t they consider New Jersey?

    “New Jersey’s proximity to New York City gives us great access to talent, which will be critical as Newell Brands continues to grow and maintain focus on e-commerce and innovation,” spokeswoman Nicole Quinlan said. “Hoboken is also one of the most highly sought-after live-play-work communities in the region and is a very convenient location for attracting world-class talent.”

    Aiding Newell’s decision: The New Jersey Economic Development Authority in May approved tax credits of up to $27 million over 10 years. It was one of more than 180 projects that have been approved, totaling awards of about $3.5 billion since 2013, according to the EDA.

    The program, called Grow NJ, has helped jump-start other projects. Bell Works, the 2 million-square-foot building in Holmdel that once housed Bell Labs, is 60 percent leased. It signed a lease in July with iCIMS, a technology company that plans to move from Old Bridge next year into more than 300,000 square feet.

    There have been other high-profile wins. Nestle is opening a research and development facility in Bridgewater. And Allergan, a drug company, plans to consolidate four existing offices into a new headquarters in Madison.”

    http://www.app.com/story/money/business/2016/09/06/year-after-summit-nj-economy-starts-then-stutters/86177896/

  10. The Great Pumpkin says:

    3b, read this. Are you really going to write off jersey with this killer combination?

    “Highly educated work force. New Jersey has the nation’s sixth highest college graduation rate after Delaware, Virginia, New Hampshire, Iowa and Washington, with 42 percent of students graduating in four years and 67 percent graduating in six years, according to College Completion.

    Location. If you drew a 100-mile radius around central New Jersey, you would reach consumers with more than $1 trill!on in income, said Brian Schilling, a special!st in agriculture policy at Rutgers.

    “The market here is really unrivaled,” Schilling said.”

  11. The Great Pumpkin says:

    And we will be doing much better in the next 15 years.

    “The bottom hasn’t fallen out of New Jersey,” said Tom Bracken, president and chief executive officer of the New Jersey Chamber of Commerce. “The negative side is we all know, based on all the great resources we have and our location, that we could be doing a lot better than that.”

  12. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Only a matter of time.

    “So, is this recovery real? The state’s labor market has clearly improved and is even looking solid. Nothing says strength more than worker shortages and especially in parts of central and northern New Jersey, available labor is becoming quite limited. We are also seeing housing price increases begin to accelerate. If it weren’t for sluggish state tax revenues, I would be totally on board with the strong recovery message. That one warning sign tells me that while the economy is indeed on the rise, it has yet to hit escape velocity.”

    http://njbmagazine.com/trenton-talk/naroff-review-new-jerseys-economy-looking-better/

  13. The Great Pumpkin says:

    Jesus, it’s called recovering from a huge economic downturn. Just like our economy and housing market didn’t fall as fast or as far as most of the country, the recovery in nj is reflective of that. In ten years, you will see nice solid gains in all these metrics in nj, esp with the huge investment coming in infrastructure. Nj is indeed back on its feet and ready to be the gem that it is. Just going to take some time.

    “Bergen County residents are earning less, spending more time commuting to work and have seen their homes continue decrease in value – a trend that began after the Great Recession of 2008.

    But according to the annual release of data by the U.S. Census Bureau, residents in the most populous county in New Jersey fare better than their counterparts in other counties in the state and nation when it comes to income and home values.

    The median household income in Bergen County was $85,806 in 2011-2015, a 4.1 percent decline from 2005-09 when median income was about $3,646 more. Statewide, the median household income was $72,093 – a nearly 5 percent decline over 2005-2009.”

  14. 3b says:

    I have been saying this about Bergen co for years now. I know of four houses in my town that sold for 2004 prices. And a few people who were shocked that their houses are worth 100 to 150k less then they thought they were. And just a general note Bergen co in general is getting very shabby looking.

  15. 3b says:

    Pumps yes I am writing it off unless the deep structural problems are addressed in this state it will continue to decline. A few success stories here and there does not change that. Or the amount of millionaires the state might have. As for highly educated people there are plenty of highly educated people in other parts of the country. You make it sound like we are the only large metro area with a highly educated work force.

  16. Juice Box says:

    Twas our Neighborhood Holiday party last night. One really nice about living down here in Monmouth county is our neighbors like to get together and party. There was an after party too that was still going on at 2 am when I left. Seems nearly everyone got socked in assessment increases, some as high as $70k. Our development is 150 homes built in the 1970s, sure we take care of our homes but these increases aren’t warranted, they did no do an actual assessment from what I can tell. Few homes have sold recently do to the plans to add 220 kilovolt power lines and 110 mono-poles as high as 21 stories along the NJ Transit tracks. If that plan for the 220kv lines is approved our home values will plummet for sure and they will have to lower our assessments.

  17. yome says:

    If 529 is fully covered meaning $14,000 each,you and the spouse for 2016. Equal to $28,000 for each kid,with spouse contribution . You have reached the max yearly gift. Gift tax will be assessed over this amount.

  18. yome says:

    On Thursday, Rep. Sam Johnson, a Republican from Texas and chair of the Ways and Means Committee, introduced legislation to significantly cut Social Security.

    The bill introduced by Johnson, who is also the chair of the Social Security subcommittee, slashes benefits, adds means testing, and would raise the retirement age from 67 to 69.

    For most workers, the bill would cut Social Security benefits substantially. As Michael Linden, associate director for tax and budget policy at Center for American Progress, pointed out on Twitter, a letter from Social Security’s Office of the Actuary calculated workers making around $50,000 would see checks shrink by between 11% and 35%.

    Nearly every income bracket would see a reduction, save for the very bottom. People making around $12,280 in 2016 who have worked for 30 years would see an increase of around 20%. But young people making the same amount would be hit hard by the changes. If they had 14 years of work experience by 2016, they would see their benefits cut in half.

    The plan would also cut entirely cost of living adjustments (COLA) for retirees earning above $85,000.

    If nothing happens, Social Security will start to lose its ability to pay benefits in full in the 2030s. However, Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo notes that by 2090 it will still be paying at 74%.

    Democrats, expectedly, are not pleased with Johnson’s plan, preferring strategies like increasing taxes above the Social Security cap—billionaires pay the same amount as someone making less than $118,000—or raising the Social Security tax itself. There has, however, been a bipartisan effort for a payroll tax to help keep Social Security funded. For now, Congress will deliberate on Johnson’s proposal in 2017.

  19. yome says:

    “Social Security will start to lose its ability to pay benefits in full in the 2030s. However, Josh Marshall of Talking Points Memo notes that by 2090 it will still be paying at 74%.”

    It will still be able to pay 26% less of what was promised to 2090 and beyond. Millennials population should be able to cover retiring boomers

  20. Grim says:

    Schwab?

  21. Fabius Maximus says:

    And the witchhunts start. Did they learn nothing from the Bush US attorney scandal.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/us/politics/climate-change-energy-department-donald-trump-transition.html

  22. leftwing says:

    We did a 529/UTMA/Crummey Trust combo.

    529 was obviously used for college.

    We used the UTMA for the kids’ gifts, their savings from work, etc. It was savings account, gave the kids a feeling of ownership and responsibility. Never really got to a large amount, under $10k. No money from us went in there, only their money and gifts from third parties. My oldest used money from there to fund his portion of his first car purchase and to travel the Balkans the summer between HS and college.

    We used the Crummey for our contributions to the kids outside of the 529. Grim, sounds like you may end up with $100k or greater in the accounts (15+ years times a five thousand a year plus returns). Benefit of the Crummey was they couldn’t freely access it upon majority, you dictate the terms. Not sure you want a newly minted 18 year old getting access to that amount through a UTMA. Additional benefit is that we set up a low cost term life insurance policy with Trust as beneficiary. We gifted the premiums to the Trust which maintained and held the policy (back when I was younger and premiums were cheaper think I got a fifteen year policy of $1m for $1500 annually). That structure circumvents estate and inheritance taxes on the proceeds (may be less of a concern now). We split accessibility at 25 and 29 years old. With college taken care of by 529s that timing allowed them to graduate and get the stupidity out of their system before getting any real proceeds. I always thought of it as for a first house. You can also throw a grad school provision in there.

    Downside of Crummey is that it is irrevocable so think about the terms closely, you can’t change them. There is also some paperwork involved annually, which really needs to be done and maintained (we were cautioned the IRS doesn’t like these things and can try to invalidate if the proper steps weren’t followed each year).

    On the account any good broker ought to set you up and waive account specific balance fees under the larger relationship.

    Key is managing the gift exclusions between the 529 and Crummey. Don’t forget, you can pull multiple years forward for the 529 and you and your wife each have one. If you go the Crummey route with insurance on you, given the aforementioned warning, I always used an individual account for that contribution. Not sure I had to.

    Caution, this data is more than a decade old given my kids’ ages and I am in no way qualified to give personal financial or legal advice. There may be better alternatives out there now. Good luck.

  23. Steamturd thinking about the remains of Hillary's umbilical stump says:

    Grim…TD Ameritrade no commission index ETFs. Custodial account (UGMA/UTMA). Just make sure you raise your kids right since it’s theirs at adulthood. You will pay taxes. Once kids are 14, contribute what they earn to their IRAs and let them save their own money. Good luck.

  24. Steamturd thinking about the remains of Hillary's umbilical stump says:

    Lefty. Thinking along similar lines. Trusts suck unless you are a lawyer. My brother is a partner and won’t even use them. He does use grandma/grandpa to gift of course.

  25. chicagofinance says:

    grim: do Roth accounts…..if you are ineligible, then back door the contribs….you can put aside $5,500 for you and Jayne each……worry about the restrictions later…..I forget, are you 40 yet? 59 1/2 comes faster than you think…..meanwhile you can end up with let’s theorize $50K in contribs worth $125K in 2035 with no taxes and you have full control in the meantime and can make investment adjustments at any time without taxation…..your daughter can wait for free money until she is 25-28…it won’t kill her…..

    If you already have regular IRAs….you can’t easily do the backdoor…….there are way around it though….you can roll IRA’s into 401(k)’s…..

    https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/investing/backdoor-roth-ira-high-income-how-to-guide/

  26. chicagofinance says:

    Trusts are stupid expensive…..avoid….cost to setup…..cost to maintain, including separate tax return and massive administrative headache…..also draconian tax structure, since it is assumed that only rich people use, so you are instantaneously taxed at top of tax tables….even on $10….

  27. chicagofinance says:

    There is a lifetime gift tax exclusion…..you want to avoid all the filings….it reality, you will not pay tax…..unless you fcuk up…..

    yome says:
    December 10, 2016 at 11:20 am
    If 529 is fully covered meaning $14,000 each,you and the spouse for 2016. Equal to $28,000 for each kid,with spouse contribution . You have reached the max yearly gift. Gift tax will be assessed over this amount.

  28. yome says:

    Actuarial The proposal includes fifteen basic provisions with direct effects on the OASDI program. The
    following list briefly identifies each provision:
    Page 2 – The Honorable Sam Johnson
    1) For retired worker and disabled worker beneficiaries becoming initially eligible in
    January 2023 or later, phase in a new benefit formula (from 2023 to 2032). Replace the
    existing two PIA bend points with three new bend points and modified benefit formula
    factors.
    2) Use an annualized “mini-PIA” formula beginning with retired and disabled worker
    beneficiaries becoming newly eligible in 2023, phased in over 10 years. The mini-PIA
    calculation would use a single year’s average monthly indexed earnings (mini-AIME)
    and primary insurance amount (mini-PIA) for each year with taxable earnings.
    3) Replace the current-law Windfall Elimination Provision (WEP) with a new calculation
    for most OASI and DI benefits based on covered and non-covered earnings, phased in for
    beneficiaries becoming newly eligible in 2023 through 2032.
    4) After the normal retirement age (NRA) reaches 67 for those attaining age 62 in 2022,
    increase the NRA by 3 months per year starting for those attaining age 62 in 2023 until it
    reaches 69 for those attaining age 62 in 2030. Increase the age up to which delayed
    retirement credits may be earned from 70 to 72 on the same schedule.
    5) Beginning with the December 2018 COLA, provide no COLA for those with modified
    adjusted gross income (MAGI) above specific thresholds and compute the COLA using
    the chain-weighted version of the CPI-U (C-CPI-U) for all other beneficiaries.
    6) For spouses and children of retired workers and disabled workers becoming newly
    eligible beginning in 2023 and phased in for 2023 through 2032, limit their auxiliary
    benefit to the amount based on one-half of the PIA of a hypothetical worker with earnings
    equal to the national average wage index (AWI) each year up to his or her eligibility
    year, and who has the same eligibility year as the worker.
    7) Beginning in January 2019, require full time school enrollment as a condition of
    eligibility for child benefits at age 15 up to 18.
    8) Provide a new minimum benefit for workers with more than 10 years of covered earnings
    above a specified level, phased in for retired and disabled worker beneficiaries becoming
    newly eligible in 2023 through 2032.
    9) Beginning in January 2019, eliminate the retirement earnings test for all beneficiaries
    under NRA.
    10) Eliminate federal income taxation of OASDI benefits that is credited to the OASI and DI
    Trust Funds for 2054 and later, phased in from 2045 to 2053.
    11) Provide an option to split the 8-percent delayed retirement credit (DRC) to offer a lump
    sum benefit at initial entitlement equivalent to 2 of the 8 percent DRC earned, and a 6
    percent DRC on subsequent monthly benefits, effective for workers attaining age 62 in
    2023 and later.
    Page 3 – The Honorable Sam Johnson
    12) Beginning in January 2023, provide an addition to monthly benefits for all beneficiaries
    who have been eligible for at least 20 years. The additional amount is calculated based
    on 5 percent of the PIA for a hypothetical worker with earnings equal to the national
    average wage index each year.
    13) Beginning in January 2023, for new and current disabled widow(er) beneficiaries,
    change the requirement that disability must occur no later than 7 years after the worker’s
    death, or after surviving spouse with child-in-care benefits were last payable, to no later
    than 10 years.
    14) Beginning in January 2023, for new and current disabled surviving spouse beneficiaries,
    eliminate the requirement to be age 50 or older for receipt of benefits.
    15) Beginning in January 2023, for new and current beneficiaries, waive the two-year
    duration of divorce requirement for divorced spouse benefit eligibility in cases where the
    worker (former spouse) remarries someone other than the claimant before the two-year
    period has elapsed.

  29. 3b says:

    We paid for our kids college. No loans for them or us. They also got a second hand car each. We don’t do weddings. Each one gets a check on their wedding day.

  30. Grim says:

    Yeah pretty much the same

  31. leftwing says:

    Only response on the Crummey Trusts is that they are well worn pathways and simple. Almost fill in the blank for an attorney. Even at wildly inflated, monopolistic NJ legal pricing mine cost $5k each to set up.

    Depending what your number is on the rest of your assets (and what it will be in the future, and what the new estate limits are/will be) it is probably worth setting up a Crummey for the life insurance tax avoidance alone. Back when, I had my wife as beneficiary for regular insurance and most other assets. Second cheap term policy resided in Trust directly for the kids at 25/29 if I passed. Provided a repository on terms I wanted for funds I gave them that became meaningful over time, and I didn’t have to worry what an 18 year old may do with that amount. The direct insurance for them also had me sleep better with young ones.

    The maintenance isn’t so bad. For the Trust to be effective the beneficiaries (kids) need to be able to withdraw anything you gift. Rules give them 30 days to do so. Means any time you gift, usually once annually, the Trustee (my sister) would have to give notice to my kids (to their guardian, my wife) and their guardian would have to respond back that the kids waive their right to a withdrawal at which time the funds are permanently in the Trust under its terms. Two letters, bit of a circle jerk, but that’s all.

  32. leftwing says:

    “yome says:
    December 10, 2016 at 11:20 am
    If 529 is fully covered meaning $14,000 each,you and the spouse for 2016. Equal to $28,000 for each kid,with spouse contribution . You have reached the max yearly gift. Gift tax will be assessed over this amount.”

    I distinctly remember being able to ‘bring forward’ future years gift allowances for a 529. We used that provision.

    May be worth looking into, especially if you can transfer stock directly without selling it and thereby avoid taxes on gains from this market runup. I have no idea if one can, but if you have some stock with gains and are considering 529s probably worth a look. I am certain we used multiple years gift allowances at inception.

  33. 3b says:

    Keep posting Pumpy . You don’t need to convince me but it sure looks like you need to convince yourself.

  34. Njr says:

    If trusts are bad, what to do with term life policy you want to go to minor child without letting ex wife get hands on it. Kid will need to run from her as soon as legally possible?

  35. chicagofinance says:

    Crummey Trusts are obsolete……Federal Estate Tax Exemption is now $5M per person and also portable as long as surviving spouse elects at the right time…..NJ is doing away with Estate Tax after 2017…..not worth costs unless there is a UHNW estate or some other driving reason……

    Depending what your number is on the rest of your assets (and what it will be in the future, and what the new estate limits are/will be) it is probably worth setting up a Crummey for the life insurance tax avoidance alone.

  36. chicagofinance says:

    to be clear, trusts are not bad in and of themselves…but the reason grim asked (529 complement for small dollar amounts)….or leftwing (ILIT)…there are better solutions….of course multiple marriages or spendthrift provisions (e.g., keeping money out of the hands of young adults) make sense……

    Njr says:
    December 10, 2016 at 5:41 pm
    If trusts are bad, what to do with term life policy you want to go to minor child without letting ex wife get hands on it. Kid will need to run from her as soon as legally possible?

  37. chicagofinance says:

    529’s have 5 year provision…so a husband and wife can contribute $140,000 in one shot = 14,000 x 5 years x 2 people…..but you are covering 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 & 2020….note….2018, 2019 & 2020 have not yet been announced, so it could go up

    leftwing says:
    December 10, 2016 at 5:13 pm
    “yome says:
    December 10, 2016 at 11:20 am
    If 529 is fully covered meaning $14,000 each,you and the spouse for 2016. Equal to $28,000 for each kid,with spouse contribution . You have reached the max yearly gift. Gift tax will be assessed over this amount.”

    I distinctly remember being able to ‘bring forward’ future years gift allowances for a 529. We used that provision.

    May be worth looking into, especially if you can transfer stock directly without selling it and thereby avoid taxes on gains from this market runup. I have no idea if one can, but if you have some stock with gains and are considering 529s probably worth a look. I am certain we used multiple years gift allowances at inception.

  38. Comrade Nom Deplorable, just waiting on the Zombie Apocalypse. says:

    Rory,

    Yes they did. It is the prerogative of the administration to have its own people. Not unlike the current administration.

    Bush replaced USAs, who typically resign when there is a change of administration. Those that didn’t decided to flaunt protocol. They weren’t tenured professors.

    This administration packed not only the USA level offices but packed DoJ down to the very entry level ranks with partisans. I suggest you give me the benefit of the doubt on that but if you insist, I’ll introduce you to a few. And I can only surmise that the obamunists packed other agencies as well. The DC bureaucracy is utterly infiltrated and it is well within the incoming administration’s right to purge the House of Harkonenn.

  39. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Same as it ever was, same as it ever was. Blumpkin will be an old, lonely man in Passaic County, babbling about how New York is so close and how the kids will be moving out to the suburbs soon to start families, they just happened to skip a generation this time.

    Keep posting Pumpy . You don’t need to convince me but it sure looks like you need to convince yourself.

  40. Fabius Maximus says:

    Eddie Ray,

    Gonzales fired them six years in, not at the start.

    In this case, it is not dealing with political appointees that serve at the pleasure of the president, this is going after career civil service.

  41. Steamturd thinking about the remains of Hillary's umbilical stump says:

    “Career civil service” should not be legal.

  42. Essex says:

    Is there a correlation between how nice a downtown is and crazy Essex county taxes? Hard to imagine a 2000 sq foot home with a $19k tax bill.

  43. Steamturd thinking about the remains of Hillary's umbilical stump says:

    Essex County is where we build 35 million dollar baseball stadiums where 37% of the population lives in poverty. We then lease the stadium to a team for 60K per year. We then reelect the double dipping county super for life.

  44. Fabius Maximus says:

    In fact, aside from Mr Obama’s 2008 win, Mrs Clinton has received more votes than any other US presidential candidate in history.

    I will refer you all to this. It should be mandatory reading.
    https://www.amazon.com/Me-People-Selfless-Rewrite-Constitution/dp/0812981685

  45. Ben says:

    And this star wars us going to gross more than the original. What’s your point?

  46. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    That’s the same as saying, “Voters in CA and NY should count more than any other state, even though she did much worse than the candidate 8 years ago with many more illegals voting.”

    BTW, in a different world, where voters in every state have some say in presidential elections you could also say that Mrs. Clinton won less states than any Democrat candidate since Dukakis, the epitome of a Dem loser.

    Just grab your own cunt and cry for two years, then grab it some more.

    In fact, aside from Mr Obama’s 2008 win, Mrs Clinton has received more votes than any other US presidential candidate in history.

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