From the Daily Record:
GOP leader says higher-income families fleeing
BY MICHAEL DAIGLE
The drive to build affordable housing in the richest section of the state is hampered by the state’s highest-in-the nation property taxes, Senate Minority Leader Leonard Lance, R-Hunterdon, told the audience Thursday at the third annual United Way public officials forum.
Lance was one of several speakers at the event who briefly outlined efforts to develop affordable housing for the middle class and the challenges facing that effort.
…
Chuck Richman, deputy commissioner of the state Department of Community Affairs, outlined how his department has developed funding programs to assist municipalities and nonprofit groups in creating affordable housing.The effort is part of the goal announced by Gov. Jon Corzine to build 100,000 units of affordable housing in 10 years, Richman said.
“Affluence is a double-edged sword,” Lance said.
He said that Morris, along with Hunterdon, Somerset and Bergen counties, are among the richest counties in the nation. But along with great wealth, he said, the counties have among the highest costs of living and housing costs as well.
It takes an income of $127,000 to be able to afford a home at the current Morris County average sale price of $491,000, Lance said. The high prices make it nearly impossible for nurses, teachers, police, firefighters and other key workers to live where they work, or in some cases in the towns where they were born, he said.
Lance said the Morris County Economic Development Corp. reported that the county lost 14,000 jobs in the past few years, and that last year, 57,000 high-income families left the state. The state Labor Department projected that by 2010 most of the new jobs in Morris County will be lower paying.
The key reason for the migration is the state’s unfriendly business atmosphere and high taxes, Lance said.
The impact of the population loss is evident, Lance said, when compared to historic population trends.
…
Residents are fleeing to state such as North Carolina, Georgia, Delaware and Pennsylvania, he said. It will be key to control the state’s $30 billion debt, Lance said.
…
Richman said to meet Corzine’s housing goal, affordable housing output will have to grow by 40 percent a year for 10 years. While there is a great need for middle-class affordable housing, the hardest goal will be to create housing that reaches the lowest-income residents in the state.
Please, Define High Income Family ???
>75K
>100k
>150K
or >200K
???? Anyone???
I think it is 150K in the breaking point – since according to everyone here unionized nurses make 90K in NJ… (of course 150K in above average income in ANY county in NJ)
Nurses make 90k?
Where?
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary-surveys/nursing/
All aboard the NC choo-choo!!!! Teachers and firefighters aren’t the only ones who can’t afford to live here. I have a choice, stay or go. The benefits of leaving far outweigh those of staying.
dont you mean teachers and cops?? most firefighters around here are volunteer
This is funniest. Hunterdon county is one of the most restrictive in allowing any new housing. When you don’t allow any supply, naturally the prices go up. The senator from Hunterdon giving advice on Affordable housing, that is like Queen of France saying, if you can afford bread, then eat Cake.
High income are leaving??? What about the proximity to NY??? But there is no land left to build?? A total bunch of horse manure!!! There is a sh*tload of land in NC,DE,PA.. Don’t get run over by the moving vans on 80 west and the turnpike south. Jerseyites are not naive, they are tired of Trenton/municipalities picking their pockets. Real reform has to instituted, if not?? You can only get hit over the head so much before you begin to realize you have a headache, I mean a migraine. The millionaires are fleeing because of the new tax on them, the middle class can not afford it. Who is buying????
Nothing will be done as usual. They talk and talk and it just continues to get worse each year.
Where’s the Sh*tload available?? Please take screenshots from google maps. The only land I see is the airport runways, parks and open water. The only places open are in Wayne where the land cost an arm and a leg… so any new houses have to include the high land price in the sale value. Please stfu thanks.
mistah,
Read it again. I was talking about other states that Jerseyites are fleeing to. I’m a lifetime resident of the state, don’t need any google maps for Jersey.
Hrmmm “But there is no land left to build?? A total bunch of horse manure!!! ”
sorry about the confusion
take care!
WELL. I guess we are all out of NJ now – I know I will be once my current contract with the company is over (2 more years. I’d much rather make 45K out west than 75K here – I am dead serious about that. So much betetr quality of life there.
Lets see:
I do not need a boat to be happy.
I do not need a lot of “stuff” to be happy.
I do not need spending 40 minutes one way to work (18 miles).
I do not need to see upset , angry and rude people all day.
I do not need to pay rent which is higher than in california.
I do not need Crappy weather.
I do not need more taxes.
I think it is ridiculos that some food is taxed and clothes are not.
I know two people in NJ who works for goverment, they do not have any degree, they work in the office – they make arount 80K – only because they have worked for goverment for 15 years+ …
Just tell me what does New Jersey have goig for it if I am the middle class in the private sector?????
(It is good for Poor – poor people live same way as me with the govermental housing and welthfare and they do not have to work. And not Rich – they benefit greatly from all of these)
Notice the headline is “GOP leader” says high income families are fleeing. Presumably becuz they’re being fleeced by a democrat-controlled state.
I’d guess more middle-income families are struggling and seeking relief any way they can, even moving if that is feasible. I live in an affluent suburb. No shortage of high income types here. They can drop a million plus on their new McMansion without blinking an eye. So what if the value drops 100 or 200K over the next couple years? Chump change.
ts
If you have never done this, and you have a couple of minutes, try http://www.melissadata.com and click on lookups. Then check political contributions for your zip. Pretty interesting. I looked at several zips, and could see trends by location.
Do not buy houses. Do a boycott! Prices are going down already. We just need the last of the delusional types to realize it.
Then pounce on them for 40% off sales off of 2005 prices.
It is true, the politicians will not do a thing. They will only do the things that will get them re-elected. It’s the same BS over and over. As long as they have their Lexus and CHC in the ‘burbs, everything will be status quo.
Lordy this crap never ends.
Let’s take the first thing that 95% of the readers/posters here believe:
Housing is overpriced and home prices are likely to decline significantly in the near term (within 3 years).
If that is true (and I think it is), than isn’t Lance just using the example of the currently out of whack housing market to push his political agenda?
The high cost of housing is the No. 1 reason for a high cost of living. It is at least three times more significant than any other single factor, including property taxes which are outrageously high.
Also, something that may seem counterintuitive to many, but is certainly true, affordable housing through the state’s program is actually more affordable in high property value areas than low ones. The higher the relative value of property in an area the lower the tax rate will generally be, therefore an affordable house (let’s say priced at 100K) built in Rumson will pay about 1/3 of the taxes of the same house built in Asbury Park, making it more affordable.
The state should be doing everything it can to control costs, and it certainly doesn’t seem to be doing that, but that’s not exactly news, is it?
The point of this story appears to be to let Leonard Lance flap his gums, because it doesn’t really say much of anything.
Enough talk… what can we do about it!… Nothing… If you go to a store and don’t like the service the only option is to take your business elsewhere… likewise.. the only thing left to do is move or keep eating the slop nj gives us
Jersey ain’t all that bad. I’ve visited/lived out west & down south multiple times over last 6 years. West really scares me, too notorious for big boom to busts, no substantial/sustainable/competitive industry. I love the desert & yearn to move west, but for now, think I’ll watch from here. Same amount of cookie cutter houses with the fake siding, or existing housing need overhaul, etc. down south and west as there is here. Jersey has one advantage, it’s more ahead of the game than other locations. Often I travel down highways or cities or backroads & could swear I was in Europe 10-15 years ago. Hopefully NJ will avoid those mistakes & not repeat any history there.
It’s not impossible to get the job you want near your house here. I thought that for years & did 1.5hrs avg. over 24 miles, had debated fleeing to PA to make my money stretch. As prices plummet, now I feel sorry for anyone living in PA working in NJ as the house is worth less + there’s a 3-4hr commute in the winter or the rise in summer gas prices. I think it was a good idea in ’01/’02. I like the small town feel but also enjoy being able to get something other than frozen sit-down meals & appetizers. We have real quality establishments. I like the cultured multi-cultures moving-in vs. rednecks of this nation or any nation. I like we have supermarket options too. Not a fan of box stores but they’re an epidemic everywhere, whatcha gonna do?
Jersey, in my opinion, is more quality than quantity than many other locations, so I’m sticking… still renting since it’s equal to taxes & waiting for the realism of that quality/quantity to settle in to sellers.
What is considered a good price to rent? 1000 for a 1 bedroom apt? 1600 for a 2 bedroom? 2500 for a condo? 3000 for a house?
Yikes
Wow, I must be stupid, because my wife and I earn just a hair under $100k, yet still manage to enjoy a decent life BECAUSE of where I live (Bergen Co.), and not in SPITE of where I live. Hell, I LOVE living in NJ. I grew up in eastern PA and wouldn’t go back there even to piss on a forest fire.
Don’t get me wrong: I’d love to see serious and substantive reforms; I hate paying nearly $750/month in property taxes. But damned if my family and I don’t have an enviable quality of life: a diverse community, almost zero crime, tree-lined streets, amenities within walking distance, short commute (especially since I bike across the GWB to work–being part of the solution also alleviates stress [and saves me $100/month]), excellent library systems, good schools, proximity to museums and cultural attractions, TWO f*&%ing IKEAs**, the mountains, the beach, etc.
Naturally, I’d feel somewhat differently if I were maxed out trying to pay for too much house, too much car, and $299 jeans. But those aren’t my priorities–nor do they appear to be the priorities of my neighbors and friends. Maybe I’m living in a fool’s paradise, but I (heart) NJ.
**kidding. I hate IKEA.
To Al,
Exactly who are you blaming for the weather?
Also, prepared food is taxed since it is considered not a necessity, I’m not sure it’s right, but I think that’s the case everywhere, and many other states tax all food.
You are however entirely correct about overpaid state employees, of which there are far too many.
If you don’t know what NJ has going for it, then you really don’t need to be here, but I think it’s giving you more than you realize. Also, I’m not sure NJ really has a higher percentage of rude people than anywhere else, it’s just that there are more people around so they might be easier to notice.
Finally, if you think poor people live the same way as you, you are insane.
Jamey,
If you don’t mind me asking, how long have you been living in your house and how much did you pay for it?
Bottomline, what NJ offers is not worth the cost of living here. If you live in Central and West NJ how often do you truly take advantage of NYC but to go to work. I would imagine that most go to the same Fridays, Olive Garden, Fast Food joint that every American does. In NJ you over pay for the same house that in the south or west you could purchase for half the money. For what? To do the same thing here you would do any other place, sit on the sofa and watch “Dancing with the Stars” like all the other good Americans. Basically ever job sucks, just make sure your job pays more than the next guy. And you make your life what it is. Why not do it somewhere affordable.
“Al says:
I know two people in NJ who works for goverment, they do not have any degree, they work in the office – they make arount 80K – only because they have worked for goverment for 15 years+ …”
Al, if you don’t mind my asking, what’s wrong with not having a degree and making around 80K?
Ok, can someone explain this quote from the article to me?
“It takes an income of $127,000 to be able to afford a home at the current Morris County average sale price of $491,000, Lance said.”
How the hell can a family or single person making $127,000 a year afford a $491,000 home? Unless if you put 50% – 60% down…something is very wrong with this picture. Not to mention taxes on a 491,000 home in Morris county are at least 7500 a year. I feel like I’m the only one not smoking the crack pipe.
Escape: I live in SE PA, but spend most of my time in NJ. Work, go to the shore, even shop here. Just don’t want to waste the money on taxes. My commute is usually less than an hour.
Here’s my take. We go into NYC a couple times a year, max. We’re not in this area to go to NYC. I like it here. Like the diversity of the area. Now, when we go to Nebraska, or even some little town in PA where everything is white bread, I feel
…freaky – like I can’t wait to get back to my 40/30/20/10 town. Even that seems too homogenous sometimes.
The real question should be..
why is the dollar worth so less to make your income worthless.
SAS
To Lindsey :
I am not blaming anybody for weather – but one of the reasons why people like california is the weather.
2. I do not really think that poor people live the same way I do, but the fact that full grown adult can live all his life not working does bother me – I pay him to do that.
3. The only thing new jersey have going for me is that I have a professional job in a field I studied, in the west I might not be able to get it. however I spent a lot more here in rent/cost of living – everything. I do not need nearly as much money as I am making here to have better quality of life, in “not so Great” states – such as Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico or even Washington and Oregon.
I do not like New York that much and going out to new York Is expensive anyways – just train tickets/tolls.
4. By the way – new jersey does have higher percentage of rude people BECAUSE IT IS SO CROWDED and people getting irritated. I do not know how about you but driving 40 minutes to work with millions of other people with crazy rude drivers – thats gets you wound up right from the beginning of the day.
To Glen Says:
Whats wrong with Govermental employees is that there is no competition for their job – they are in the union and they can not be fired. They do not work hard neither their job have a lot of responsibilities. Theri only noticable professional quality – they are PART OF THE UNION.
If there would be a fair competition they would get 40K for their job – thats what people in comparable positions in private industry get.
So for no skills, no competition, no stress, no dangers they are getting a lot more than, for example, police officers working in Newark – do you call it NORMAL? or you are one of those state empoyees???
To Jamey Post #20
Clarify when did you bought your house and how long have you lived there – if you bough it 25 years ago and paid it of – sure life is great.
Al/Gary: I bought in ’98. I have a mortgage and a HE loan, taken out in 2002 to bring the house into the 20th century (not a typo). To afford my house, I lived in a crappy rent-controlled APT in a dubious part of NYC (I held the lease from 1991), and saved up 25% down payment on less house than the Realtor and lenders’ graphs said that I could afford.
I agree w/Lindsey, that housing costs are the biggest reason why NJ is unaffordable. The markets will correct and there will be legions of families like mine, that earn a decent but not astronomical wage, live within their means, take advantage of public services (paid for with my taxes), and the other things that life in a progressive, culturally inclined area offers.
I’m not lording my good fortune–and a lot of it was luck–over others, but I want to offer a counter-point to the many who say that NJ is a dead zone, and that you need to be pulling down a quarter mil to make a go of it here.
Here is the Key:
You bought in 98… Sorry I was still in school in 98, could not really buy anything – there was no ARMS/IO back than or at least no stated income loans.
I checked Bergen county: no I repeat no houses for sale under 300K. Cheapest one bedroom apartment is 246K, and it is horrible.
And I am not saying New Jersey is Dead zone. All I am saying is that It is dead zone to me unless something changes.
Al:
The total cost of my home (purchase price + necessary improvements) is not out of line with 03/04 prices. If you don’t want to buy a house at peak prices, then I applaud your commonsense.
The whole “unless something changes” clause on which you predicate your argument is kinda what this site is all about. The price of houses over the past two/three years is unsustainable; it has to come down to meet buyers. Many of us share this belief; it’s why we’re here.
And, though you might not like hearing this, Bergen isn’t the only county in NJ. And even if you’re set on Bergen, there are some burgs–Bogota and parts of Hackensack, for example–with affordable (in a relative sense) housing. (And if those town are out of reach, then something’s gotta give. Just give it some time.) There are other counties, ones with better public transit system penetration (still no rail from North Bergen to Tenafly). But if you’re consternated about Bergen being out of reach, and you are unwilling to consider other counties, then you shouldn’t be so quick to tar the whole state with the “upset, angry and rude people all day”/rotten-quality-of-life-brush.
Hey, feel free to kill the messenger here, but patience and the willingness to sacrifice will take you a lot further than a chip on the shoulder or a sense of entitlement.
It takes an income of $127,000 to be able to afford a home at the current Morris County average sale price of $491,000, Lance said.
This math requires 20% down to work, which is about $100,000. How many first time buyers have $100K? Yes, I know some people on this blog do, but lets face it, most people first time buyers do not.
Jamey,
With all due respect, I don’t blame anyone for having a chip on their shoulder. You bought in ’98 for half of what your house is now worth. The fact that you renovated is a whole different story.
I sense no entitlement mentality. People are royally pi**ed off because a whole group of scam artists f***ed up a lot of people who simply wanted a livable split-level in a decent town with decent schools. Hackensack? Ask Mayor Bloomberg’s limo driver if he’d move to Hackensack and put his kids in that school district.
Al, I am not a state employee. I was actually refering to what you said about not having a degree.
I was just wondering, because I don’t have a degree and make close to that, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with that.
I agree with what you say about the state employees, though. But don’t ever let them hear you say that!
I’ve lived in Hunterdon Cty for 6 years, having lived 50 years on Long Island. I like it a lot here. My area is up to 10 acre zoning now and the only people who don’t like that are developers and people who own big parcels of land. The rest of us understand that our quality of life and property taxes are better with less development.
Education is so expensive. An affordable house that pays, say, $9,000 in property taxes and has 3 school age children at an average $12,000 per child per year is a $27,000 negative for the rest of the taxpayers just on the school taxes. Obviously, it makes more sense to attract people from other areas if theres a shortage of people to do necessary jobs.
Jamey, your whole point is based on the concept that you bought a house in 1998, when they cost 50% less. It doesn’t hold much water for anyone faced with paying 100% more for the same house, combined with astronomical taxes.
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