From HousingWire:
Bill allows tax-free use of retirement funds for mortgage payments
A bill introduced in Congress would allow struggling homeowners to withdraw funds from their retirement accounts tax free to pay their mortgage.
Sen. Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.) and Rep. Tom Graves (R-Ga.) submitted the Home Act Wednesday. Isakson also co-sponsored the Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.) bill that would eliminate fees and loan-to-value caps for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac borrowers looking to refinance.
Borrowers could pull as much as $50,000 from their retirement account or one-half of the current value of their account, whichever is smaller, and avoid the typical 10% tax penalty. The cap is a lifetime cap, and does not expire on a particular date. Borrowers are eligible to make multiple withdrawals until they reach the cap.
The money must be put directly toward the mortgage within 120 days of withdrawal.
“This bill will help Americans who risk foreclosure use their own resources to make their mortgage payment on time without being penalized by the federal government,” Isakson said. “I firmly believe that economic recovery in this country will not occur until the housing market bounces back.”
…
“This legislation will simply place taxpayers who have saved responsibly on the same level as those who have not, all the while reducing foreclosures, eliminating red tape and accomplishing a goal that all members of Congress can support — keeping Americans in their homes,” Graves said.
Fist Prost!
Eat that Clot!
Good Morning New Jersey
In other words use one depreciating asset to pay for another depreciating asset.
I’m not sure what other slop they are feeding into the sausage machine with this one, but at first glance it doesn’t seem like such a bad idea to me.
If anything, it might make some new purchasers a bit more comfortable knowing they can fall back on retirement savings if they need to.
What about the people who already took money from there retirement accounts to avoid foreclosure, will they get back the amount they paid out in penalties?
Wow. Where do I begin?
Couple of notes: Its only for present underwater (Struggling, love the word play) homeowners & Notice it says that they (big brother) will only forgo the 10% penalty, How generous of them to allow you to use your hard earned savings. You’ll still pay your standard 20% to the government income tax, but that sucking sound is the instant loss of equity to you & financial windfall for both the fed gov and our wonderful banking system, Wonder which assholes on wall street came up this brilliant idea and fed it to Johnney and Tommey in Georgia.
Post Script: Please correct if I have my facts wrong
Re: Jobs
I bet Obama was seething as he praised him because he can’t tax the shlt out of that estate.
Wanna see this bill get crushed quick, How about TAX FREE withdrawl to purchase or pay off a home with a clause in there for people who have already had to make a hardship withdrawl and a tax credit for equity lost against future earned income.
Nah that wouldn’t happen because big banks would lose all that mortgage interest and big brother all that income.
Is it still moral hazard if your own money is at risk?
Well, funnelcloud is making my job easier.
You’ll still pay your standard 20% to the government income tax
Of course you will, since you didn’t pay it before. This isn’t a free lunch. Heck, even I’d have a problem with this if it really was tax free. I couldn’t imagine all of the unintended behaviors and consequences it would spawn.
BOE turns up the pound printing press. But you can’t call it QE over there.
Geez guys, you are gonna have the tax angles covered before I get out of bed.
Why will a person withraw up to $50,000 to pay his mortgage,when this does not guarantee him he can make future payments when his fund is depleted.As I understamd deficiency judgement can not go after your 401k and retirement like SS.
I will agree more on the bill if it allows to use your own money (401k) to pay for hardship without the 10% penalty.
Writing a bill to save the banks again
“Borrowers could pull as much as $50,000 from their retirement account or one-half of the current value of their account, whichever is smaller, and avoid the typical 10% tax penalty. The cap is a lifetime cap, and does not expire on a particular date. Borrowers are eligible to make multiple withdrawals until they reach the cap.
The money must be put directly toward the mortgage within 120 days of withdrawal.”
grim (13)-
We already have enough unintended consequences and behaviors run amok. I think the only intent of Isakson’s bill is to encourage people who are underwater to completely empty their accounts of all savings and resources in order to “save” a worthless asset.
plume (15)-
We won’t have the tax angles covered until every IRS facility in the US is engulfed in flames.
We have 99ers out there struggling.You are giving them a choice of buying food or medicine instead this bill want them to pay their mortgage.
#9 Eddie Ray Nom
I think Jobs estate may be a few dollars over the $5mil exclusion so O will see a few bucks of it.
Now knowing you time is limited since 2005, I assume tax planning measures were in place to limit the hit.
I’m with Clot on this one.
In retirement, it is generally better to eat human food and rent than to eat cat food and own.
Great, you can use whatever measley money you have left to pay for the house but you have no heat and no electric because you have nothing left. I wonder what chopped up furniture tastes like.
If you steam particle board with some pork fat, you can make a passable pork bun.
grim,
As long as we’re still considered prestigious, nothing else matters! :o
(20) fabius
Et tu Nigel?
“Writing a bill to save the banks again”
Perhaps the next bill will mandate that people use retitrement funds to pay back the banks.
Take one family struggling to pay their $2000 rent and another family who is under water and has stopped paying their $2000 mortgage payment. Both families are renting and both have no equity; one family is renting from a bank, the other from a landlord. You could make a case that the family with the mortgage is in a much better position, they can stop paying their “rent” and live rent-free for two years before having to relocate, the family without the mortgage can last 6 months at best before being evicted. This is just an attempt to hand the banks a big fat straw sunk into the 401k savings milkshake of the uneducated, with the government getting a nice tip (vig) in the form of income tax payments pulled forward. This will also pull forward some huge amount of social unrest, perhaps followed by some kind of smell, perhaps even a stench.
(20) Nigel,
I wouldn’t mind a punishing estate tax if it landed on Steinbrenner.
Will the 1%ers need to start wearing a patch like the outlaw bikers i can do? I can see it now, Warren Buffet and Spike the Biker sauntering into a roadside bar, each wearing their 1% patch.
From a CNN e-mail:
President Obama today will push Congress to act on his jobs plan and credit Senate Democrats for taking action on jobs, according to a senior administration official.
The president is also likely to endorse a “millionaire’s surtax” — a rate increase on those earning $1 million or more.
Obama will speak live at 11 a.m. ET. Join CNN’s Wolf Blitzer, Suzanne Malveaux and Gloria Borger on CNN TV and CNN.com/Live for full coverage.
Watch live coverage now on http://CNN.com/Live
Unlike the Roth conversion, I cannot think of anyone that should pay mortgage from their retirement funds. The only way it is even remotely sensible is if home prices skyrocket.
Yeah, good luck with that.
GOP should tie abolition of AMT to millionaires surtax. That will certainly kick the hornet nest.
(29) shore,
There is a patch. They carry it in their pocket and it bears the seal of a foreign government. But you don’t get to see it.
“Geez guys, you are gonna have the tax angles covered before I get out of bed.”
Youve been outsourced to a relative of Jamils in Bangalore.
Nicholas:
From yesterday on the sump pump issue, My concern really was just about pumping dirty water. I would be surprised if this pump went on twice a year. I’m not concerned about power outages because the pump will really only be a backup.
Thanks
#28 Nom,
Blame for that one goes straight to the party of No. Remember the days of 40 + Joe Liberman.
re # 29 – speaking of the Wall St 1% they seem to be a bit ungrateful these days. I gather the fund-raising in New York has not been going well at all and Jamie D has been seen courting the opposition. I think that in the midst of the formation of a class war they would be a little bit more contrite and at least hit the donate button on Pres O’s re-election website.
WASHINGTON — Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner says he is baffled that Wall Street continues to oppose President Obama, even though administration officials bailed the financial industry out of the mess they created. In a speech on Wednesday, Geithner also commented on the growing protests around the country, saying he feels “sympathy” for Americans who are frustrated.
Geithner appeared at the Washington Ideas Forum in Washington, D.C. on Wednesday, in a discussion moderated by Atlantic Editor-in-Chief James Bennet.
Bennet asked Geithner why Wall Street continues to fight Obama, even though “[n]o one has been a greater direct beneficiary than the financial community of the policies of this administration.”
“You saved their companies, by and large, you saved their jobs, you even saved their bonuses. And they cannot stand this president now — even people who supported him four years ago. Why? What explains that?” asked Bennet.
“I think it’s inexplicable,” responded Geithner. “People resent when they need help. It’s a natural thing. They resent the huge amount of public anger they’ve been subjected to because they caused the crisis.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/05/tim-geithner-wall-street-obama-anger_n_996918.html
best comment Ive read this morning.
“Yet the poll gods say Cain is hotter than a two-dollar pistol. (Though under Cain, a two-dollar pistol would cost $2.30 in Florida.) ”
Who will be the GOP messiah?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65256.html
The bill may be a fairly good deal for some people – actually the ones with good credit, not necessarily very stressed, e.g. if one is able to pull some money and bring LTV to <80%, and then refinance at a current low rate.
#29 Shore
They just put a sign in the window.
http://chicagoist.com/2011/10/05/board_of_trade_has_a_message_for_oc.php
The Squatters and the Strategics must be laughing at all this.
The good old days of NY are almost back..
NYPD pummeling the hippies with Nightsticks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpOMlDVaXzc&feature=player_embedded
It is 100% insane to withdrawl from a 401K in a bear market, pay taxes on it and then invest it in an asset like a house. Add in 401K grows tax free each year and is protected in BK is even more nutso. In late 1999, 2000 and early 2001 when 401K values were high and real estate was pre-bubble withdrawling form a 401K to buy a home made more sense even with the 10% penalty.
JJ[43]
If one withdraws say 50K which allows him to refinance 400K mortgage from 6% to 4%, this is a pretty good deal. I agree that robbing 401K to avoid default is a bad advice.
35
Most sump pumps can pass solids up to 3/8″.
Back up pumps are also available that work off of city water pressure, no electricity needed. The GPM of water pumped is pretty low though.
http://www.basepump.com/Basepump.htm
What happened to the proposal,being able to refinance mortgages under GSE’s at the bubble price ,even if they were under water.It is crazy to throw $50k cash in a dead house to save $300/month.
cobbler says:
October 6, 2011 at 10:12 am
JJ[43]
If one withdraws say 50K which allows him to refinance 400K mortgage from 6% to 4%, this is a pretty good deal. I agree that robbing 401K to avoid default is a bad advice.
For the borrower this helps. However, many old folks buy mortgage backed bonds and this will cause their income stream to fall. Also if they bought bond above par due to high coupon the early call at par will result in a capital loss. Problem is on a macro basis you are helping one and hurting one. In this case the homeowner over the MBS bond holder.
cobbler says:
October 6, 2011 at 10:12 am
JJ[43]
If one withdraws say 50K which allows him to refinance 400K mortgage from 6% to 4%, this is a pretty good deal. I agree that robbing 401K to avoid default is a bad advice.
Is this REALLY a pressing issue in Florida?
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/10/lawmaker-was-to-repeal-ban-on-dwarf-tossing-to-fight-government-intrusion/1
I wouldn’t be concerned about pumping “dirty” water unless there were huge rocks and other things in it. The sumps come with a filter that keeps large debris from being sucked up into the pump. You have the same problem if it was a concrete floor. Bugs, dirt, sand, rocks would get washed into the sump.
The sump isn’t going to be maintenance free, everytime it floods you are going to have to clean it out. I just assumed that was par for the course and didn’t need to be pointed out.
Do your best to ensure that a large amount of debris isnt making it to the sump to clog the filter.
From yesterday on the sump pump issue, My concern really was just about pumping dirty water. I would be surprised if this pump went on twice a year. I’m not concerned about power outages because the pump will really only be a backup.
Debunking the Myth of the Over-compensated Public Employee
October 19, 2011 at 7:00 pm
Rutgers Labor Education Center
50 Labor Center Way New Brunswick, NJ 08901
Admission: No charge and open to all
Registration: (required by October 14, 2011):
Cobbler (44):
“If one withdraws say 50K which allows him to refinance 400K mortgage from 6% to 4%, this is a pretty good deal.”
I would tend to agree with you, if the government didn’t keep moving the goalposts. At this point, the best option for one underwater is by far, to stop paying your mortgage period. Why raid your savings? Behave like the 1%.
I agree. I place a sump pump in my backyard which sucks in all kinds of leaves and twigs and it continues to do it’s thing. Just clean out the guard periodically. Mud won’t be an issue.
Funny they say these new rates are great. I have seen these rates before. Excel Bank in Manhattan and Smith Barney used to have a ‘match book’ loan program. Don’t know if they still have it. Deal was and maybe still is. Lets say you want to borrow 500K to buy a home. You deposit 500K in treasuries, triple AA Munis, govt backed agency bonds or certain really blue chip stocks that are marked to market to prevent balance from falling below 500K. In return bank “loans” you 500K which makes mortgage payment tax deductable. No appraisal or forms needed as bank holds mortgage on books and super safe for bank as deposit if primary collateral house only secondary. Imagine if you did a one million matchbook in January and bought one million munis at 5% tax free vs. Adustable mortgage at 3%. You would be getting 50K tax free muni interest and a 30K mortgage write off.
libtard [51]
It depends on one’s situation. If the guy likes the house and intends to live there for 20-30 years, and has no problem making monthly payments – but doesn’t feel comfortable parting with cash in his bank account, it is to his benefit to use some 401K savings to bring LTV to a refinanceable level. Obviously, this is a deal if the current LTV is 90% or even 105% – but not 200%…
I think the 401k is an instrument of financial distruction and if they didn’t offer me matching I wouldn’t put anything in there. I am constantly looking for ways to remove that money from the 401k to make use of it.
The basic problems with the 401k are that you don’t have a good way to manage where your money goes. Often there are only a few basic 401k funds that you can apply your money, very rarely will they let you pick up individual stocks. The management fees are very murky and there really is poor disclosure overall.
Since all major employers offer a 401k then you have a constant stream of money pouring into the stocks and bond markets from retirement savings. The “market only goes up” is true until 401k deposits drop after the boomers retire and start massive withdraws.
Does your house have to be underwater for you to make the 401k withdraw? Do you have to be behind on your mortgage payments? If both of those are true then I would recalculate what it means to pull money out of my 401k to pay off my mortgage.
This is basically a secured loan,secured by your own money.Sad thing about it is you pay bank minimal interest so you can deduct interest but bank is holding the house and your money as collateral.
JJ says:
October 6, 2011 at 10:35 am
Funny they say these new rates are great. I have seen these rates before. Excel Bank in Manhattan and Smith Barney used to have a ‘match book’ loan program. Don’t know if they still have it. Deal was and maybe still is. Lets say you want to borrow 500K to buy a home. You deposit 500K in treasuries, triple AA Munis, govt backed agency bonds or certain really blue chip stocks that are marked to market to prevent balance from falling below 500K. In return bank “loans” you 500K which makes mortgage payment tax deductable. No appraisal or forms needed as bank holds mortgage on books and super safe for bank as deposit if primary collateral house only secondary. Imagine if you did a one million matchbook in January and bought one million munis at 5% tax free vs. Adustable mortgage at 3%. You would be getting 50K tax free muni interest and a 30K mortgage write off.
#55
I have money moved from 401k funds to secured money market and bonds.Not in stocks for over a year.I kept new contributions in the stock fund .This is what I did before the bubble burst,so I did not get hit when the market crashed.I recently moved $3ok into stock funds.I started when the S&P hit 1260 and kept moving funds into stock fund each time it was going down.
Sas3…Lisa never gave me your email address. If you read this, the meeting is tonight in North Brunswick at 7:30 at a members condo in Society Hill.
Shoot me an email at stu_junkymail@yahoo dot com and I’ll send you the address.
Cobbler – You are right that the borrower will benefit from lower future P&I, but you have used expensive equity to take out cheap debt. Your scenario is asking a borrower to double down on their investment with more equity that has a very questionable rate of return attached to it. It would only be a good deal for those with very very low equity return requirements.
Now here is a woman of substance.
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/food/assets_c/2011/10/main%20shutterstock_67484833-thumb-615×300-65259.jpg
I always hated Steve Jobs with a passion when he was alive. I am proud to say I have never bought a single one of his products. Sadly he has single handedly distroyed an entire generation. Granted he did pretty good for himself being an adopted, muslim dead beat dad who had a habit of screwing his business partners and not giving to charity while stealing every single “idea” he ever came up with and not giving a nickle of royaltyto the rightful inventors.
I recall 20 years ago going to record stores and hanging out talking to people and learning about great artist, going to book stores and finding all types of cool things, going to beach or health club where not everybody was attached to an IPhone, IPad etc and we used to talk and I pick up hot girls. Riding train with beer in hand and copy of Post late edition BSing with people as not everyone had a headset on or glued to a little screen. He brought the internet and media everywhere but in turn isolated people from physical contact while enriching his pockets. I will be the first to publicly say the world is a much better place without him. The mindless soleless corporate numbskull who replaced him will drive Apple into the next Xerox or Kodak as once great companies now a shell of their prior selves living on borrowed time.
If there is a God, Steve Jobs will spend enternity in a room full of people with headsets on glued to little blinking screens while he stands alone in isolation.
‘boken[59]
Again, the issue is if one considers the house to be an investment or a place to live. For many people 401K for the last 11 years was a venue to lose money, not to make it – so if they have a chance to put it into something with <10 years payback, that's an awesome deal. [and this is irrelevant to my overall opinion of 401K plans and the role they played in the decline of America as a productive society]
I’m quite sure this program will only be to pay or catch up on bad loans. If you have been making all your payments and have a L/V ratio that is too low to refinance, you’re loan is a prime performing asset, the bank doesn’t want that destroyed.
“A bill introduced in Congress would allow struggling homeowners to withdraw funds from their retirement accounts tax free to pay their mortgage.”
Yes, because we must sacrifice everything, including our already woefully inadequate retirement savings, on the altar of phony home price inflation.
Next I expect to hear that the government will start allowing young families to give up their first-born child in exchange for lower interest rates on their mortgage.
Bottom line people are stupid. You want stocks and bonds to have bear markets while you are putting it in. You want it high when you retire. For Instance my Mom retired in 1995. 1987-1994 was a pretty bad seven market stretch. She withdrew from her 401K from 1996-2002 100% of her stocks around 20% a year and moved it to bonds/cds or safer IRA investments. Had it been other way, stocks at a high last seven years of work then a low in retirement she would have been screwed.
People retiring in 2012 are a lot better off then people who retired in 2007. They may have go five years of investing at low prices. For all we know Tuesday could have been the staart of a bull market.
cobbler says:
October 6, 2011 at 12:00 pm
‘boken[59]
Again, the issue is if one considers the house to be an investment or a place to live. For many people 401K for the last 11 years was a venue to lose money, not to make it – so if they have a chance to put it into something with <10 years payback, that's an awesome deal. [and this is irrelevant to my overall opinion of 401K plans and the role they played in the decline of America as a productive society]
The real problem with the this new 401K to mortgage payment bill is that the mortgage borrower who can’t afford to pay his mortgage most likely doesn’t have a 401K.
I can’t prove it, but I bet I’m right on this one.
My guess is that this bill will have even less applicants than all of the other prior attempts combined.
JJ (65): “Bottom line people are stupid. You want stocks and bonds to have bear markets while you are putting it in. ”
Absolutely. When I read of people who bail on their 401Ks when the market is in the pits, it simply pains me. I always increase my contribution when the market goes down and decrease it when the market rallies. I was also smart enough to bail out ahead of the tech bubble bursting and the financial crisis. Right now, I’m about 75% invested in stocks. My crystal ball says we are well into an anemic recovery that will last quite a while. The other 25% protects me if I’m wrong. Plus, I have tons of mortgage debt!
WASHINGTON (AP) — The average rate on the 30-year fixed mortgage this week fell below 4 percent for the first time ever, to 3.94 percent.
In the immortal words of wantanopolous: Sell? Sell to whom?
Libitard retail flow is the worst indicator, they dumped stocks March 2009, Dumped Munis January 2011 and bailed out of Junk the last two weeks. They wait till there is blood in the street then sell and go to cash.
For instance, two months ago an AMR bond was a good deal at 9% but today at 33% is a bad deal. AMR has issued no financials during that 60 day period. Only rumours.
#61 that is a very self-centered view. think of all the people who can now easily ignore you with out feeling as if they are being rude…or laughing at your zune
As is insider buying/selling. Although when it comes to researching prospective stock purchases, I do weigh inside ownership significantly. For the most part though, I use the historical P/E bands combined with current value vs. lots of other fundamentals before I pull the trigger.
“laughing at your zune”
Is that a euphemism for his “little JJ”?
It could have been worse. He could have called it his Nano.
Better buy your cheap junk now it looks like trade war is going to heat up.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/06/us-usa-china-idUSN1E7950FF20111006
what is fun of ignoring people if they don’t know it. I like the 90’s “talk to the hand” approach better. Actually the headphones drives me nuts, it is always the guy on the aisle or jerk blocking water fountain at gym or something .
Biggest issue is the beach. Heck we used to talk to everyone at beach when I was 18. Now everyone has a headset, Iphone, Ipod. I see sometimes four kids on blankets with four headsets listening to four different songs all with 50 sunbock under the umbrella and drinking water.
That used to be four 18 year olds on blanket, with baby oil smoking J’s and drinking Buds and blasting WLIR rapping to every chick.
Plus imagine how hard this is on the washington park weed dealers,
seif says:
October 6, 2011 at 12:43 pm
#61 that is a very self-centered view. think of all the people who can now easily ignore you with out feeling as if they are being rude…or laughing at your zune
I can picture JJ schmoozing at the beach.
Here he is, he can still get not one but two beach babes to time to help him rub on some baby oil simply amazing.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XmYwA_GdPeo/THegNJf_akI/AAAAAAAAHeQ/IRNDlNObr84/s1600/naked-man-082610-4.jpg
I actually went to gym today. Half my work out was getting around barricades to get to gym with all the protestors.
I used to go to Jones Beach back in HS and first two years of college around 40 times a summer. I had a part time job that started at 4pm. Used to get there before 8am to get in for free or beg to get in. Always stopped at Roy Rodgers in Merrick first fast food place off meadowbrook by Merrick road. Split a burger and kill their fixins bar adn free refills!!! Always brought stuff to sell, CC Cola, Bud, Heinken, Frozen Milky Ways etc. Goal was to make enough to cover beer we drank, gas roy rodgers, of if we got stuck paying etc. Always hit field four as cops did not want to walk in sand with shoes and boardwalk is very far from beach so no one to give you a ticket. Always remember big fat greassy 40 year old Italian guy with a cigar who looked all mobbed up in a speedo, always had one or two cheesy blondes with him. Used to buy a round of Heinkens and pay me up front for next round. Told me when you get to last ones come back and deliver them as I don’t want them cold. One day we sold him and his two chessy blonde girlfriends six heinkens, two joints and three milkyways. My all time biggest sale!!! We were super sizing at Roy Rodgers that day.
Juice Box says:
October 6, 2011 at 2:18 pm
I can picture JJ schmoozing at the beach.
Here he is, he can still get not one but two beach babes to time to help him rub on some baby oil simply amazing.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XmYwA_GdPeo/THegNJf_akI/AAAAAAAAHeQ/IRNDlNObr84/s1600/naked-man-082610-4.jpg
JJ, steve jobs was a visionary and is responsible for pushing the envelop. Maybe you haven’t purchased apple products but you certainly have a PC and maybe a smart phone. Face it apple products are up market, but it is apple products that have proven viability for certain things(pc’s, portable mp3 players, smart phones). Jobs saw what nerds were playing with, got them to build things with mass market appeal and marketed the hell out of them. Nerds had pc’s before the apple and had mp3 players before the ipod and had smartphones/pocket computers before the iphone. None of these things appealed to the masses, they were expensive and didn’t work well, Jobs identified what would give them mass appeal and pushed his engineers to build such things. Regardless of whether or not you appreciate apple products, you can appreciate windows the way it is because of apple pushing the envelop, and android phones because the iphone drove a similar product at a lower price with fewer restrictions. Apple and Steve Jobs singlehandedly created devices which opened up new markets, even his fiercest competitors acknowledge this.
Jobs was not the nicest man and pushed his engineers hard, sometimes with crazy requests and was largely the beneficiary of their ingenuity and hard work. He was absolutely ruthless in business but the fact remains the world is better for it, sometimes the end justifies the means. He brought great products and computing to the masses.
I have a Dell Laptop, Dell PC and a HP Laptop at home that are all a few years old and a BB and a cell phone. They do what I need.
Jobs created a market for products that did not exist. If we had to listen to MP3 on a sonny walkman while talking on a cell phone, or using a black berry or a lap top to watch a movie it would be the same old thing. He did combine them all together and make it easier but he really invented nothing. Basically Steve Jobs is like back in the 1980s when Sony realized people have a phone, clock, radio and small tv in their bedroom and invented a clock/radio/tv for the bedroom. I had one in my first apt. Little tv, with a phone, AM/FM and a clock to tell time. That is all Apple did, people watched movies on a DVD, had a watch, had a flashlight, had a mirror, had a radio, had a laptop, had a cell phone and he combined them all together. Amazing. But then again as a dropout with limited inteligence and super amazing sales ability it was that or informercials.
IJCer says:
October 6, 2011 at 2:44 pm
JJ, steve jobs was a visionary and is responsible for pushing the envelop. Maybe you haven’t purchased apple products but you certainly have a PC and maybe a smart phone. Face it apple products are up market, but it is apple products that have proven viability for certain things(pc’s, portable mp3 players, smart phones). Jobs saw what nerds were playing with, got them to build things with mass market appeal and marketed the hell out of them. Nerds had pc’s before the apple and had mp3 players before the ipod and had smartphones/pocket computers before the iphone. None of these things appealed to the masses, they were expensive and didn’t work well, Jobs identified what would give them mass appeal and pushed his engineers to build such things. Regardless of whether or not you appreciate apple products, you can appreciate windows the way it is because of apple pushing the envelop, and android phones because the iphone drove a similar product at a lower price with fewer restrictions. Apple and Steve Jobs singlehandedly created devices which opened up new markets, even his fiercest competitors acknowledge this.
Jobs was not the nicest man and pushed his engineers hard, sometimes with crazy requests and was largely the beneficiary of their ingenuity and hard work. He was absolutely ruthless in business but the fact remains the world is better for it, sometimes the end justifies the means. He brought great products and computing to the masses.
JJ- if I didn’t think it before today, I certainly do now. You are an idiot.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-06/hiding-gold-in-all-the-unusual-places.html
Anyone have an opinion on the real estate auctioneers Williams and Williams? House near me is going up. Guy got relocated with the Fort Monmouth closing.
What were these people thinking in 2006? $1.1M? The place had no (and still doesn’t have) central air, a very substandard kitchen and bathrooms that are at least 50 years old (I’m guessing from the pic…and none of the others are pictured, so they must be equally as bad) and less than 1/3 acre of property.
Now listed short for $699k with an annual tax bill of $26k+.
http://www.baristanet.com/2011/10/montclair-real-estate-short-sale-tells-tale-of-dramatic-price-drop/
JJ you are missing the point, steve jobs created NOTHING. He simply was a talented marketeer who could talk to engineers and nerds as well as had a good understanding of what the plebiscite required. Nerds didn’t need GUI’s and easy to use computers, they were happy with vi, f keys, and a green screen, jobs identified guis in a research lab and quickly said hey we can sell this and the people will want it. He did the same with PC’s, it just happens he was good friends with some serious engineers(Wozniak), who for fun were building computers to use at home(As they worked for companies with real computers but nothing they could afford at home), nerds had these cobbled together machines that they wrote their own software for, Jobs said hey this thing is great, lets get some usable software on it who wouldn’t want a computer in their home for a few grand. IBM regarded PC’s as a plaything it wasn’t until apple started to sell these things like hot cakes that forced a response from IBM. If it wasn’t for apple, chances are MS would have gone under early on, in the early days they were the biggest publisher of software for Apple. Bill Gates built an empire on taking concepts presented by apple and making them ubiquitous and cheap.
My point is this stuff all would have happened eventually it would have taken longer to occur, he pushed the envelop and everyone else who was trying to push it lacked the sales/marketing ability to do. Gates understands far more technology than steve jobs did, but lacked the vision to understand what it is the general public really wanted and even if he had the vision he couldn’t sell it, in fact MS got in on the IBM PC because IBM viewed gates as non threatening, where as they feared other PC pioneers.
The story of the ipod is interesting as well, an engineer approached apple with this idea, a portable music player with enough storage to store an entire music library. Everyone else turned the guy down, its been done, the market doesn’t want it, the guy was pitching that the previous devices were just not good enough(too big, slow, bad battery life, and lack of solid song organization), apple took the risk(Jobs was big on the pc as the center of a digital lifestyle so it fit the plans). Steve Jobs was good at picking the right technologists to back and keeping them on task. Tony Fadell, the creator of the ipod likely would have made the device too complicated and full featured if not for the insanity of Jobs, who probably came by the lab every week and said no there are too many buttons, there can only be one button. Which sounds crazy but actually he was right, users are dumb, the fewer buttons the better.
Jobs was an artist in a room full of nerds.
JJ is a playa in a room full of nerds.
Nuff Said.
JJ, here is the summary nerds build really cool tech with no purpose(pocket computers?)…..enter Steve Jobs, he says wow this is great we could do xy and z and sell it to someone, he arranges the money and beats the engineer until they deliver the product as he believes it should be(ie capable but able to be used by a trained ape), generally the public loves it and buys a crap ton at an inflated price until MS, Google, or someone else makes a cheaper yet similar thing. Your HP, Dell, Blackberry are merely copies of the tech that Jobs pushed onto the market.
Jobs was an artist and communicator who invented interface as we know it. A computer without an instruction manual? yeah, he did that sh-t. Intuitive design? That too. He invented the current visual language that we use to operate our technology. The coding and the engineering is a background story.
JJ,
As a pubescent in the mid-80s, I speak for many by saying – thank you Steve Jobs for giving me Strip Poker, Transylvania and later Leisure Suit Larry on the Apple II. My childhood would never have been the same. Actually you should look up Leisure Suite Larry. You are practically a living version of him.
I’m not a big user of or particular fan of Apple products, but Jobs was brilliant. He visualized what the future should be like according to his value judgements, and then worked to make it happen. I think that on his death bed, he wished he could have spent more time at the office, because that’s where he was transforming the future.
The fact that most people don’t use his products to their highest potential isn’t Jobs’ fault. That’s like blaming Thomas Edison for “Gigli” or Marconi for Lady Gaga.
Leisure suit Larry, the bomb. many an all nighter spent with roommates on that game.
People who get all orpine about not using apple products are in fact using defacto apple products. Apple won, time to put this one away.
Orpine = uppity
In 96/97, I did a lot for Internet World, the original monthly magazine.
I heard Jobs speak at their big annual conference in San Jose. I think it was ’96, and I think he was still at Next. But when he went back to Apple, I bought 50 shares. I just got my old statements out. I bought 50 shares in August 1997 at about $26. My initial investment was about $1300 and change. By the time the next statement came in, the stock was down to $21. I thought I had just made a mistake since my Cisco and Intel stocks were soaring and splitting like mad.
Now it’s 200 shares worth about $75,000. Best investment of a lifetime.
Thank you, Steve Jobs
Whoops.
Rozrr = Scribe
I’m with JJ on this. Jobs is overblown magpie. He didn’t invent things he took them from others. The GUI came from Xerox, as did parts of apple talk. They built the business on a closed loop system. They had their own printers and peripherals. It must have hurt Jobs to sign off on a USB port for the Mac, (note the lack on the iPad).
Macwrite and Macpaint were never leading edge,but they suited the graphics market it also made a decent midi controler for seqencers What off the shelf software there was generally single task and very expensive for what it was.
Thats just leaves the industrial design side. While the products look pretty, there are as good designs coming out of every design school. My bigger issue that their striving to look good, strangles funtionality at times. Two buttons on the mouse or touchpad make life so much easier.
His true legacy:
“Built the machine that ran Hypercard that built the Web”
Programming on it was a pain. It used the Motorola chips that were easy to program, but MacOS was a nightmare.
Actually Apple stuff is for nerds. No real computer person needs a GUI. Kids today wouldn’t last a day back in the day. I still can’t figure out when I worked at Mastercard when I was 19 how the data entry people would keypunch at over 100 wpm credit card receipts with no screen to look at, no letters on the key board and they even had some foot device to shift and stuff. They would work like dogs and we do random edit check and those puppies could fly. Now I got a snot nosed punk typing LOL on a text with one finger.
I actually know a lot about PCs, still have my old 1987 Sharp laptop with dual disc drive one for programs such as word star and lotus and one disc to save your info. The harddrive was only OS. Also had blue screen of death. I brought that to the library in 1988 and was typing something from info I need from Reference books and there was a crowd looking at me like I was a man from the future.
I also was first in my town to score over one million in Pac Man, first to realize fishing line, crazy glue and a quarter I could play hundreds of games, first to tilt the soda machine straight down, first to tilt snack machine to right and my favorite was I used to bring a tool set take apart machine take the quarters and put it back together or hit the button for free games. Guy installed a camera which I saw as he could not figure it out. Also could ease drop on phone and covert the tones to numbers, put staple through routing numbers on checks and could figure out all sorts of fun things. Other favorite was I used my old laptop in mid 90s with copy dos command to copy disc to disc to get info for free. Even in a book store or libary, throw it in hit command with blank disc in other drive. Also used to connect two VCRs to tape blockbuster tapes and two cassete tapes for library tapes. Also could hotwire cars. Not steal them but cool to know. I even figured out hot to reset service indicators on my BMW to screw the dealer. The fun is doing it, not playing angry birds. I appreciate catch me if you can type stuff. Apple products is for nerds paying money to be cool.
You know what is cool doing for instance what my buddy did, reverse engineer and IPAD, use Windows based platform, hire factory in China that makes IPADs to run a third shift and selling something called IPEDs that he copyrighted in China paying legimate Microsoft licenses. I think Jobs would respect him more than an Apple user. He is still selling his IPEDS, FU Jobs.
But I will give them credit for Chuckie Cheese. Pizza served by a big rat what could be better!
96. and yet thanks to MACs indie music thrives. Whole rooms full of equipment have been reduced to a laptop. Whole industries have risen around the iStuff.
Wow, the stupid today is astounding. When you cut your lawn, do you spend a lot of time thinking about the combustible engine and worry whether or not you could build one yourself in the very unlikely event that you HAD TO? A computer is a tool and we are all standing on the shoulders of giants. Want to d@ck around all day with code or do you want to get something done?
Barbara, SJ did not invent all of these interface things, he got the UI specialist in the room and guided. These were all of the former xerox people who actually weren’t happy in the lab dreaming up great tech that would never see the light of day, when Jobs got the go ahead from xerox to use their ideas, the xerox people jumped ship and went to apple. I’ve met the people behind the ipod and iphone, they had many years in portable/wearable computer design, these weren’t just wonderlings that Jobs bestowed his vision on, these people painted a picture of what they were going to design Jobs had the knack of picking winners and getting the most out of his designers and engineers.
Fabius, original Mac OS was very long in the tooth, please remember at it’s core it was built in 1982! OS X is a very programmer friendly platform, based on Job’s work at NeXT, he was aware of the complaints about Mac OS, if he had continued to run apple he would have killed Mac OS and made something new, once the cash cow ran out. The closed ecosystem was always about profits, Jobs definitely was a businessman and as such his unstated goal was to fleece the consumer as much as possible. The whole basis of Job’s business model was to always have the superior product and thus be able to profit handsomely on all sides.
Jcer I was an apple customer back in the 80s and the visual language is the same. not sure where your time line is and I also don’t get this silly drumbeat of “Jobs didn’t do it, his employees did.” Do people not understand the difference between running a company and working for a company.
My point is simple, in the 70’s some fine Computer Scientists and HCI people got together and worked on some radical things, guys like Andy Hertzfeld and Jeff Raskin, they are the inventors not Jobs, they also came up with 80,000 other ideas that were kind of insane/not useful, the genius of Jobs was being able to get these crazy smart people to deliver something useful. Jobs never had the ideas, he could recognize what would be successful and made small suggestions. My point is to suggest that Jobs “invented” the iPod or iPhone is an insult to the people who really thought it up and put the work into making it what it was. Jobs was a great manager of technicians, but largely was not one himself. He understood the implications of what was being created more than anything else and also made his people design by dictate NOT by committee and often weighed on the designs himself, things had to pass the Steve test.
Job’s skill was finding the one in a million technologists and driving them to create great things. These things were built as a two part formula, one part Job’s and one part , one needed the other to produce. Without him we would have eventually gotten here but the road would have been longer.
Fyi I am an apple share holder from 96 or 97, I so wish I had invested a significant amount of money as I would be rich today. I think Edison is a fair comparison for SJ, reining in the likes of Nikolai Tesla.
“The whole basis of Job’s business model was to always have the superior product and thus be able to profit handsomely on all sides.”
Sure sounds like a winning plan to me. We would be better off if more American companies did this.
“No real computer person needs a GUI. ”
Brings me back to the days of edlin.
“steve jobs created NOTHING. He simply was a talented marketeer who could talk to engineers and nerds as well as had a good understanding of what the plebiscite required”
It does little good to develop technology that does not move forward to the marketplace. The act of moving products from concepts or designs into desired products is no small task.
“The GUI came from Xerox, as did parts of apple talk. ”
Xerox PARC was amazing and Xerox squandered the talent located there. We are all better off that Jobs freed the technology from the lab.
Loved my old Apple IIgs back in the day, the last hurrah for the Apple II. I don’t think Steve Jobs was as much of a genius as people made him out to be, but he did drive Apple to create some cool stuff.
End of an era. R.I.P.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44809293/ns/business-real_estate/?ocid=twitter#.To4x20JCqU8
Its offical ,as bad as the Great Recession
“blasting WLIR rapping ”
LIR? Ph-leeze. In NY it was WNEW, at least after AM and 77 WABC bit the dust. Whatever happened to Bruce Morrow, anyway?
Apple wasn’t built by a saint. It was built by an iron-fisted visionary. There are a lot of geniuses in the world, and a lot of aesthetes. But that’s not enough. Sometimes it takes Bad Steve to bring products to market. Real artists ship.
READ MORE: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/10/in-praise-of-bad-steve/246242/
I wonder when Obama will come up with the 90% tax on IRA/401K withdrawals?
Confused,
Likely only for those earning over $200,000 a year.
Cousin Brucey must be somewhere in Floridafairport convention
Jeez must be a Steve Jobs ghost bug in my iphone
Customs OKs direct Key West-Cuba flights
U.S. Customs and Border Protection says direct Key West-to-Cuba flights can began as soon as final paperwork is cleared — but with limitations.
In an Oct. 4 letter to Monroe County Airports Director Peter Horton, Thomas Winkowski, assistant commissioner in Customs’ Office of Field Operations, said “after reviewing the additional information you provided in your July 15, 2011, letter, I am pleased to inform you that Key West International Airport has met the criteria … and has been approved to offer passenger air service to and from Cuba. However, in view of the limitations of [the airport], aircraft may travel with no more than 10 passengers per flight.”
That could change if the airport upgrades its facilities, Winkowski wrote.
All aircraft to which amended federal Cuba-U.S. regulations apply must be properly licensed or otherwise authorized to travel between the two countries.
Generally, U.S. flights to Cuba are chartered, and travelers must be OK’d by the U.S. Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control, which grants licenses for cultural, medical, educational and journalistic travel. However, others can travel for other reasons, for example, perhaps to see a dying loved one or for business purposes, such as recently happened with a U.S. contingent flying to Cuba to discuss oil drilling off the island nation’s coast.
(74) Juice,
Our readers have been preparing for this for some time.
From Friday’s WSJ:
Owning One’s Home Loses Some Appeal
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204294504576615360234056834.html?mod=WSJ_hp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond
good night, New Jersey
!#$#*(&#%@*&(%@ Yankees.
After that game, I need a beach with blue water:
http://reports.asn.com/PropertyAssets/ArticleImages/lg_VTG_Sexy.jpg
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Yay. Guess I can stop cheering for Detroit now.
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