Tue 3 Mar 2009
From Prudential Fox & Roach (no link):
January Pending Home Sales Index© Shows 28 Percent Drop from Last Year’s Greater Philadelphia Region Real Estate Activity
DEVON, PA – February 3, 2009 – The Greater Philadelphia region* saw an 14.8 percent decrease in January real estate activity moving to an index of 65 from the December index of 76.3, according to the Prudential Fox & Roach, REALTORS® HomExpert Pending Home Sales Index©. January’s decrease in the region’s activity follows a 9.4 percent increase in the December index, but is 27.8 percent lower than January 2008 when the index stood at 89.9.
Compared to findings reported by the National Association of Realtors® (NAR) Pending Home Sales Index, real estate activity in the Greater Philadelphia region fell faster than both the Northeast and the National indices. The NAR index showed a 12.7 percent decrease in pending sales in the Northeast and a 7.7 percent decrease across the nation. In December, the NAR index indicated a 1.7 percent decrease in pending sales in the Northeast and a 6.3 percent increase nationwide.
Based on the forward-looking indicator, real estate activity in the five-county Southeastern Pennsylvania area decreased 16.8 percent from an upwardly revised index of 81.5 in December to 67.8 in January. The November index stood at 74.6. Each county in Southeastern Pennsylvania saw decreased activity. Chester County saw the largest decrease, falling 21.7 percent to an index of 53.2, which is the lowest index report since October 2007 when it stood at 47.4. Philadelphia County saw a 16.9 percent decrease in January activity, falling to an index of 86.8. Last month, the county increased to 104.5.
For the fourth straight month, Center City pending home sales activity rose. In January, the index reports a 19 percent increase to an index of 96.8. Meanwhile, the Main Line area decreased 26.6 percent, falling from an upwardly revised index of 87.8 in December to 64.5 in January.
Southern New Jersey pending home sales decreased 16 percent in January. The index dropped to 58.9, from the upwardly revised December index of 70.1. The October index stood at 47.3. Each southern New Jersey county reported decreased activity, however Camden and Salem counties remained about even falling 0.1 percent and 0.2 percent, respectively. Burlington County saw the largest decrease in the 12-county region, falling 30.3 percent to an index of 51.3 in January. This drop comes a month after the county recorded its highest index number since the January 2008 index.
Delaware real estate activity remained about even moving 0.6 percent higher in January to 66.2 from an upwardly revised index of 65.7 in December. Following a large decrease in December, Kent County saw a 11.6 percent increase in pending home sales. Kent County is the only county in the 12-county region to see an increase in activity. New Castle County activity decreased 1.8 percent to an index of 67.8 in January.
…
While the January pending homes sales index for the Greater Philadelphia region decreased 14.8 percent, it is 27.8 percent below the January 2008 index, moving from an index of 89.99 in 2008 to 65 in 2009. The Southeastern Pennsylvania index is 31.9 percent below a year ago, Southern New Jersey is down 19.5 percent and the Delaware area fell 21.3 percent below last year’s January index.
first? Hi Grim!
“Buyers and sellers in January sat on the sidelines waiting for President Obama’s inauguration and the government’s response to the economy. With the federal economic stimulus out of the way and a number of homebuyer tax incentives in place, we’re optimistic this year will include a turnaround,” said Steve Storti, senior vice president, marketing for Prudential Fox & Roach, REALTORS. “Positive opportunities abound especially for first-time homebuyers since their government tax credit is now a complete credit and extended through November 2009.”
Jesus, where do they find these people?
#2 - Thought I deleted that paragraph.
Corrected now.
#2
Mr. Storti,
Real Estate man of genius!
…….
Amazing stuff RE industry comes up with.
Moving this up from previous thread so I can confirm/deny how delusional I am.
Regarding Corzine’s income tax surcharge on the wealthy. Question for the board, does $250,000 a year for a household make that family “wealthy”?
“The possible increase on the wealthy would impose a 5 percent surcharge on the taxes paid by residents with incomes of $250,000 or higher.”
OK, you wanna tax HHs earning 250k+, that is fine. But please, let’s not call those HHs “wealthy” here in the Garden State. I know plenty of people who earn at or just above that threshold and none of them are wealthy in the “abundance of riches” sort of way.
Agree/disagree?
Corzine to pile another 5% onto Obamunism.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/03/corzine_may_raise_income_taxes.html
I guess he figuers to be a one-termer, might as well go out with a bang.
The real funny part will be when this phony 250K nonsense starts to reach down to 200K, then 175K, etc. You know that’s where we are going. There simply aren’t enough earners above 250K who will stick around to fund the liberal panacea that is the welfare state of NJ.
Looking for a home in N. NJ this past weekend and heard a new one from a realtor. In discussing the merits of waiting, she commented that “the lower price will be offset if rates begin to move up”. I didn’t bother dissecting it with her. Where do they get this stuff?
seneca (5)
wouldn’t those 250K disagree? It would be interesting to know what’s so special about 250K
Thanks for this site Grim, I actually just found it after that Times article a few weeks back. The posts and the comments are great, so much useful information.
I’m a first time home buyer,I will be buying a home in the next 3 months. I’ve been looking at townhouses/condos in Montclair. Do you think 20% below 2006 peak prices is about where the market is at right now?
seneca (5)
wouldn’t those less 250K agree and those above 250K disagree? It would be interesting to know what’s so special about 250K
sorry I realized less and greater than keys are interpreted as html
Can someone give me the address for MLS ID #2647719 in Pequannock? Thanks
BB,
463 Newark-Pompton Turnpike
[8] wood,
No magic. You have to pick a point so you pick it. It is entirely arbitrary.
IMHO, it was designed to single out (demonize?) a small portion of the population, such that the rest of the populace would not be hit. The same calculus goes into AMT “patches”; you relieve the pressure on your most likely voters while keeping the revenue flowing.
Contrast that to a capital gains hike, which would strike some as more fair in a tax policy world, but hits too many prospective dem voters in the “aspirational” class. Further, it is an unavoidable tax hike if you get a W-2 or 1099. Cap gains taxes can be avoided; these cannot, at least not on the federal level.
Of course, this is a pretty small tax, so it wouldn’t take too many of NJ’s truly rich to cross over to PA or elsewhere to nullify the effect, and you actually wind up collecting less tax. You may have heard me refer to this as “deadweight loss” and it is a sort of collorary to the Laffer Curve (which a few on this board dispute, and will continue to do so since you can’t prove deadweight loss with any precision)
Nice article..
It probably depicts a good %age of posters here..
http://www.newsweek.com/id/187399?from=rss
[6] JB,
Report says surtax will be for one year.
Anyone want to make some book on that?
Perhaps that is the year I move back to Bucks County (while my house is being renovated. Right, yeah, that’s the ticket). It will be my contribution to the deadweight loss.
There goes another 1060 employees.
All Virgin Megastores in US to close by summer
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090303/virgin_megastores.html
“The lack of expansion plans and a recent decision to close the Times Square location in New York, which had been on track to make $56 million last year until the financial collapse began in September, made supporting the rest of the chain untenable, Wright said.”
Market futures look a bit bleak in after hours and FXP and SRS are way up. Anyone know what’s up? It can’t be Palm’s horrible earnings…can it?
Interesting source (wink):
ETFguide.com
Should Short ETFs be Banned?
http://biz.yahoo.com/etfguide/090303/192_id.html?.v=1
“ADVERTISEMENT
Since the beginning of the year through the March 2nd market close, the Direxion Large Cap Bear 3x Shares (NYSEArca: BGZ - News) are ahead by 78.0%, the Direxion Developed Markets Bear 3x Shares (NYSEArca: DPK - News) has advanced by 110.3%, the UltraShort Financial ProShares (NYSEArca: SKF - News) are up by 93.3%, and the UltraShort Real Estate ProShares (NYSEArca: SRS - News) have increased by 81.4%.”
5.Seneca says:
March 3, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Moving this up from previous thread so I can confirm/deny how delusional I am.
Regarding Corzine’s income tax surcharge on the wealthy. Question for the board, does $250,000 a year for a household make that family “wealthy”?
“The possible increase on the wealthy would impose a 5 percent surcharge on the taxes paid by residents with incomes of $250,000 or higher.”
OK, you wanna tax HHs earning 250k+, that is fine. But please, let’s not call those HHs “wealthy” here in the Garden State. I know plenty of people who earn at or just above that threshold and none of them are wealthy in the “abundance of riches” sort of way.
Agree/disagree?
Is the Corzine 5% Surcharge, 5% of the taxes due added to the taxes, or an extra 5% tax on the income added to the tax due. If the latter, he may actully make some money.
comrade (12)
on the other hand there is no evidence that tax cuts increase revenue.
Assuming a Laffer effect it is reasonable to assume this should be parametrized for income intervals.
Corzine should just raise the Cigarette Tax and Alchohol Tax to $50,000 a carton or bottle. If nothing else it was save us the cost of them playing with those taxes annually.
From previous thread- I’ll throw in my recommendation for Montreux as well. Great place and the waterfront walk from Chillion Castle to Vevey is great.
“parametrized for income intervals.”
and in layman’s terms?
stu (22)
higher income might make one accept a higher rate before reducing it (or moving to PA)
Stu 17
after the coming bear rally peters out and we fall off the cliff, i am sure we will see short bans that will include some sort of limitation on short ETF’s
GE Death watch?
52 million put contracts with a target of 2.20 or under….
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aVtf6fH6MNCo&refer=home
If you were making $250k 10 yrs ago, I don’t know if I would say you were wealthy, but it certainly bought you a much better life than it does today. Right now, $250k barely qualifies you for a starter home in the tri state area.
Short video clip on Middle Class Exodus form New York
http://uk.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=99667&videoChannel=80
Interested by figure thrown out of ‘…150k middle income residents left 3 years ago.’
#13 Zack
Nope, most of the posters here stand to profit from the fall.
I see John is breaking Lent and posting as skep-tic.
thanks for the info Yikes (previous thread)I have heard good things about the school, the commute would add more significant time for my husband..me not so much. With your wife working in NJ, how do the income taxes work? I suppose I am looking to see where the bang for the buck is. My brother lives in Wrightstown and his property taxes are lower, but then he has to pay a boro tax as well.
250k is the old 100k.
“$250k barely qualifies you for a starter home in the tri state area”
I thought it would be more than enough after the crash
GM’s 53% U.S. Sales Decline Leads Industry’s February Plunge.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aDqho4d6N_4g
Ford February U.S. Sales Fell 48%; Toyota’s Slid 40%; Nissan Down 37%
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&refer=us&sid=aBBdv31eMQwg
Didn’t somebody post a statistic over here saying only 3-5% of the households in Bergen County made over $250K?
If more than 250K is not rich, then 95% of the people are dirt poor.
I’m not a politician, but wasnt BO’s following comment quite risky from a political standpoint?
Obama Says Now May Be Good Time to Buy Stocks
I forgot to mention that I walked by UBS’ office builsing on 6th Ave and they had about six cops out front in riot gear holding M-16’s. Is this typical at I-banks these days?
Kettle,
And the market went up shortly after he said it! He is the Messiah
The 250K figure is chosen specifically to support the lie that comes next - that the middle/lower class can all have yummie little welfare programs for free. We are going to charge THOSE guys for them. Of course, two people working their asses off making 300K are not rich, but that’s not the point. It’s a figure chosn for class warfare, and to convince the parasites that they can everything under the sun for free.
“Is this typical at I-banks these days?”
Were they pointed towards the tax payer ? If yes, then it is typical.
the puts on GE just blew up
and now look at their leverage, 140:1
http://optionarmageddon.ml-implode.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/slide17.jpg
explanation of the chart for anyone who wants it
http://optionarmageddon.ml-implode.com/2008/11/24/leverage-by-the-numbers/
#37 HEHEHE
I think it’s typical I-Bank. After 9/11 they would show up about once a month at Salomon. The firemen not as often, but the firemen would get standing ovations when they did.
don’t know if this was posted before. I think this is priceless. Maybe there is a way for banks to get recourse on a note.
Maybe this is the way to solve sub-prime. If the bank wants the house it can foreclose and you can walk. If they don’t and you try and Jingle Mail, you are on the hook for maintainance and fines.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101386052
“I surrendered these properties back to you all. I said, ‘You keep leaving them in my name, I’m getting these tickets.’ They don’t care. They’re not getting a ticket. They’re not getting threatened with jail,” Jackson says.
This is my bold prediction: the bottom is going to fall out of BRK-A.
Something is up in Buffettworld, and it’s scary. I think he is in a very precarious spot.
AIG Sued by Ex-CEO Maurice Greenberg Over ‘Inflated’ Shares
Former American International Group Inc. Chief Executive Officer Maurice “Hank” Greenberg accused the insurer in a lawsuit of securities fraud after it reported the biggest loss by a publicly traded U.S. firm. Greenberg sued yesterday in federal court in Manhattan, saying the company’s “material misrepresentations and omissions” caused him to acquire New York-based AIG shares in his deferred compensation profit-participation plan at an “artificially inflated price.” The complaint came on the same day that AIG CEO Edward Liddy told Bloomberg News that Greenberg was at the helm during the formation of AIG’s financial products unit, which sold derivatives that cost the company more than $30 billion in writedowns and prompted a government rescue. After reporting its fourth-quarter loss widened to $61.7 billion, AIG announced it reached an agreement to restructure its federal bailout.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aypK6QDFffqQ&refer=home
This seems like a good way to start mass riots in germany…
Germany Must Bail Out its Ailing Eurozone Neighbors
Countries as export-dependent and politically reliant on the EU as Germany and the Netherlands cannot afford to be blasé about economic crises in neighboring countries. They should support proposals for eurobonds that share risks. Twelve months ago it seemed inconceivable that any European Union member could face a sovereign debt crisis. It would have been the stuff of fantasy to argue that Ireland or Austria could be among those at risk. Yet such an outcome is now within the realm of possibility. And if one country suffers a crisis, it will almost certainly trigger a wave of crises, plunging the EU, and especially the euro zone, into turmoil. There is nothing inevitable about this. But a way out requires Germany and other fiscally sound but highly export-dependent economies, such as the Netherlands, to show more vision.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,611017,00.html
GM Europe will run out of cash ‘within weeks’
General Motors’ European operations will run out of cash within weeks unless they get government support, the US carmaker warned today, saying that a collapse would put up to 300,000 jobs at risk.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/engineering/article5839556.ece
Clot,
Bank of England is feeling the heat!
British shares crash as savers raid £8bn from accounts
The pressure of an intensifying recession saw British companies and households launch an £8bn raid on their savings in January, according to the figures from the Bank of England. As stock markets round the world slumped to record lows yesterday, with the Dow Jones at its lowest since 1997 and the FTSE 100 index touching a six-year nadir, the Bank also revealed that the UK’s building societies granted just 2,000 new mortgages in January – a record low, and about one-tenth of their “normal” level. Given that giants such as Nationwide and Britannia are still writing much of the business, it implies that some of the smaller regional societies made few if any home loans in the first weeks of this year.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/shares-crash-as-savers-raid-1638bn-from-accounts-1635889.html
As Italy’s Banks Tighten Lending, Desperate Firms Call on the Mafia
When the bills started piling up and the banks wouldn’t lend, the white-haired art dealer in the elegant tweed jacket said he drove to the outskirts of Rome and knocked on the rusty steel door of a shipping container. A beefy man named Mauro answered. He wore blue overalls with two big pockets, one stuffed with checks and the other with cash. The wad of bills he handed over, the art dealer recalled, reeked of the man’s cologne and came at 120 percent annual interest. As banks stop lending amid the global financial crisis, the likes of Mauro are increasingly becoming the face of Italian finance. The Mafia and its loan sharks, nearly everyone agrees, smell blood in the troubled waters. “It’s a fantastic time for the Mafia. They have the cash,” said Antonio Roccuzzo, the author of several books on organized crime. “The Mafia has enormous liquidity. It may be the only Italian ‘company’ without any cash problem.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/28/AR2009022801972_4.html?wprss=rss_business
Clot 45
Why so?
sl
Stanford Bank Collapse Threatens Venezuela
The collapse of a Venezuelan bank owned by R. Allen Stanford, the Texas financier accused of fraud, is raising concern that the run on its deposits could spread to other banks, threatening the nation’s economy. On Saturday, President Hugo Chávez blamed his political enemies for rumors about mass withdrawals, and urged depositors not to pull their savings from domestic banks. “If there were any reason to do it, I would be the first to act,” Mr. Chávez said, in statements distributed by his press office. “I refute these rumors that attempt to sow panic among savers, not just regarding what happened with Stanford, but about the Venezuelan financial and banking systems.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123595106454404981.html
Clot
i cant find the link, but i read somewhere he was tied up in derivatives, at least partially through irish banks.
not the article i was referring to but is this the general idea?
http://seekingalpha.com/article/75744-berkshire-hathaway-s-derivative-play
Hidden Pension Fiasco May Foment Another $1 Trillion Bailout
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=alwTE0Z5.1EA
Clot and kettle,
If you read this year’s Letter to shareholders, Buffet mentions the puts he sold have a maximum risk of I think 37 billion. To take that loss, all stocks on all the indexes would have to go to zero. The puts are also exercisable only on the last day of each contract and come due between 2019 and 2028
turns out he’s also written about 4 billion of CDS for corporate bonds and collected 100 million in premiums.
HOV is doin to 72 cents.
anyone know when they are supposed to report earnings? Curious to see how much cash they have left. 77 hudson is 3 months or so away from being ready for occupancy, but i imagine they are going to have a pretty high cancelation rate on top of their already anemic sales thus far.
NVMD, found it. a week from today, 3/10
We were looking at a southern-outer-banks property. It was a nice enough house, midway between the ocean and the sound, with decent views of the ocean, great views of the sound and easy walk to the beach. The price was not so far out of reason that we could not reach a deal. The killer for me? The thing was up, not on pilings, but pressure treated dimensional lumber. I’m sure THAT will be just dandy when the surf is up.
#9 TD # monts? Don’t be in a rush;time is most certainly on your side.
#26 skeptic:Right now, $250k barely qualifies you for a starter home in the tri state area.
And there are not near enough of those making 250K in the tri-sate area,and as such prices will continue to come down.
#32 MW:I thought it would be more than enough after the crash
It is.
“Regarding Corzine’s income tax surcharge on the wealthy. Question for the board, does $250,000 a year for a household make that family “wealthy”?”
I have a very simple quick test to determine if someone is wealthy. If all of one’s cars failed and needed to be replaced at the same time as the mechanical systems in one’s home failed and at the same time that one needed to pay the full four-year college tuition for all of one’s children and one could pay for it out of cash on hand and without affection one’s way of life, one is wealthy. That does not describe one who makes $250,0000/year.
#35 victorian: 70% of all households in Bergen Co have 100K or less a year in yearly household income.(2005 numbers)
#38 disident: And than it went down.
We have a Lewinski economy. Constantly going down.
#9 TD 3 months? Don’t be in a rush;time is most certainly on your side.
skep-tic says:
March 3, 2009 at 6:33 pm
If you were making $250k 10 yrs ago, I don’t know if I would say you were wealthy, but it certainly bought you a much better life than it does today. Right now, $250k barely qualifies you for a starter home in the tri state area.
Sometimes comments on this blog are a bit snobbish… So what about us folks which earn just under 100K/family, with kids - are we at the poverty line???
People who make 250K do OK…
whats the word in here tonight blokes?
SAS
Al @ 67
People like us don’t deserve to live.
“I have a very simple quick test to determine if someone is wealthy.”
If you HAVE to go to work, you are not wealthy.
“Sometimes comments on this blog are a bit snobbish… So what about us folks which earn just under 100K/family, with kids - are we at the poverty line?”
i don’t think anyone is beig snobbish, its hard less than 100k in this area.
Goto CO, 100k will get you alot further.
Its amazing. NJ just sucks eggs.
as for me:
always something holding a brother down.
SAS
Holy F.
Am I on redstate?
Powerline?
Lew Rockwell?
If you have to move your glass of 1978 Montrachet to type on your Mac Pro how much you “feel” you are so “poor”….
PLEASE.
Get a clue.
PS-(you can’t buy one. sorry.)
spam,
hugh?
SAS
What is “wealth”?
I know what my definition is, but I’d like to hear yours.
Hugh?
Grant?
Hefner?
Jackman?
ok, I must of missed something.
I will just sit here and sip my nightly favorite: warm milk & cognac.
SAS
anyone wants to try my nightly favorite, you gotta use whole milk.
use milk from a Jersey cow, and not holstein. seriously.
Jersey cows don’t produce as much as the holstein, but they make a damn good milk.
get to know your local farmers.
SAS
SAS
we have to meet at a GTG sometime, i have a chat i would love to have, not really blog material though. in reference to your comment the other day about the very old, deep system behind the curtain
67. Al
Yeah I get that nonsense on a lot of blogs. Ironically, its this mentality, the same one that this blog criticises on a daily basis, that got us into this mess in the first place, i.e. that income = wealth.
It doesn’t, assets equal wealth, income can be pulled out from under you in the blink of an eye.
We’ve never made even close to 250k a year, yet you would be suprised how much we are worth.
A lot of hype on the internets.
kettle,
I will set up an email so bubble bloggers can contact me.
sometime soon, I have been meaining to do that.
SAS
Barbara (79):
I agree with you once again. Income don’t mean squat if you don’t save a penny of it. And who really cares what town you live in or what car you drive. Wealthy to me is retiring without a worry. Some will make it through the daily grind and others will make it through frugality. Mark me down for the 2nd as I don’t like to work overtime. Family time is too valuable to me.
stu.
this is why I had kids later in life, I didn’t want to be the mom that had to send her kid to school with a bad cold so as not to use up the personal days for the long weekend ski getaway or whatever. I’m into non stress, family etc so we set ourselves up in our 20s to be and stay self employed. Wasn’t easy but it is better to be young and poor than older and poor.
SAS,
There it is right there is your comment!
Do you know that there are people in existence who don’t get to drink cognac OR choose what breed of cow their milk comes from…? (Or don’t have a “local farmer who happens to sell whole milk from Jersey cows…”)
They don’t get to choose “leather interior” because they buy used.
They don’t get to tell the housekeeper to “come Friday instead of Wednesday” to help prepare for weekend guests… Hell, they don’t even buy name brand paper towels.
They don’t buy $200/$300/$400 sweaters. (And no, they don’t EVEN buy them 1/2 off or at the outlet.)
They don’t buy sheets based on thread count.
There’s a whole world out here of work-a-day people who won’t see $250K in earnings in THREE or FOUR (or more) years.
If you have to move your glass of 1978 Montrachet to type on your Mac Pro how much you “feel” you are so “poor”….
Must be poor, thought Montrachet was cheese.
vodka (50)-
Frankly, the mob runs a better retail lending operation than most banks.
Their workout departments and loss mit are a little rough around the edges, though…:)
Barb, we had Jr. gator when I was 35. Wanted to be financially secure before starting the family. I’ve got to tell you, being debt free (except for the mortgage which is half paid by our tenants) is the only way to be. I had trouble sleeping at night when my CC balance was $4,000. Of course it was 1993 and I was making $18,000 year thanks to Bush Sr. and the great economy he left me in to find a job out of college.
Shore Guy says:
March 3, 2009 at 8:32 pm
“I have a very simple quick test to determine if someone is wealthy. If all of one’s cars failed and needed to be replaced at the same time as the mechanical systems in one’s home failed and at the same time that one needed to pay the full four-year college tuition for all of one’s children and one could pay for it out of cash on hand and without affection one’s way of life, one is wealthy. That does not describe one who makes $250,0000/year.”
It has to be done……
Are we talking a Porshe, a Bentley and a 2 ton truck? A 5,000sf home with multi zone heating, geothermal and solar run and built in smart system that need to be replaced? 3 kids going to Harvard?
Or are we talking about a couple of modest runabouts, simpler home half the size and 1 or 2 kids going in-State?
It’s not just about the income but about what one does with it - as you have pointed out numerous times. A fairly standard, non luxurious life on $250k could be unbelievably secure with huge cash reserves put away for a rainy day.
Or it could involve an ostentatious life, expensive vacations and weekends in Paris, high end clothes and cars leading to a life permanently on the edge.
Most of the problem has a lot to do the aspirational lifestyle - and people making over $250k aren’t immune to throwing away good money in an effort to appear richer than they are.
Doesn’t make them paupers.
stu
I love being debt free and we also live and own a 2 family. Like you, that will hopefully change in the next year or so but we wouldn’t be where we are now if it wasn’t for living 13 years with one car, being frugal and banking and investing 35% of our yearly income. The best part, our families think we are poor, lol. Used to kind of piss me off, now I see it has benefits (no desperate phone calls :P )
sl (51)-
1. Massive naked puts sold up under all the indices (92 in all, I think). Yet, he’s famous for the financial WMD statement.
2. “Buy American”…yet, he only buys American when it’s a preferred class of shares with a special 10% coupon. “Regular” American? He dumps it like an umbrella from a subway vendor.
3. That Sunday afternoon conversation with Klink. I’d like to think that Klink’s call wouldn’t have been answered or returned by Buffett in another time. He took that call for more reasons than wanting to help or to be a good American. He needed something. What? I don’t know. However, I do know he got something…and he got it in return for using his reputation to work the pump cycle before his dump of some seemingly bulletproof shares.
Soros, Ross, Icahn, Buffett. With so many hedgies, IBs and PE blown out of the game or with severely-reduced positions, these individual “titans” now have outsized positions and are more able than ever to move markets. Along with that power comes the downside. One of these guys is going to hit that downside, and to me, Buffett is acting like that guy.
Hey, I’m no analyst, and I halfway made the call just to start a fun conversation here. But if WB hits the skids, I won’t be surprised.
JBJB says:
March 3, 2009 at 7:39 pm
“The 250K figure is chosen specifically to support the lie that comes next - that the middle/lower class can all have yummie little welfare programs for free. We are going to charge THOSE guys for them. Of course, two people working their asses off making 300K are not rich, but that’s not the point. It’s a figure chosn for class warfare, and to convince the parasites that they can everything under the sun for free.”
This entire post is an effort at class warfare.
What is the subtext here? People making less than $300k aren’t working their asses off? Make less than $250k and you are a parasite?
vodka (54)-
Lots of failing pension talk this week. Nervous time.
sas (77)-
And here I am, looking for Ferrand XO, thinking the Cognac is the linchpin.
grim (84)-
If she knows what the hell 1978 DRC Montrachet is, she’s either rich, had a sugar daddy at one point, or was rich and blew it all.
I actually served this wine once to a guy who asked for club soda, tall glasses and straws…and made spritzers with it.
hehehe.
I use teh google.
http://www.forbes.com/2003/11/19/cx_np_1119feat.html
I am rich.
Filthy rich.
Like poke myself daily and go “whoa…who gets to be this lucky?”
I wonder what is the marginal tax rate when one adds the 39% top tax rate to the 7% NJ income tax rate plus when they take out the social security income tax cap (which I suspect will come)? It definitely feels like I only get to keep about half of my paycheck.
The wife and I together make salaries (excluding bonuses) that put us just a bit over the $250k “rich” threshhold. That means take home pay after withholding, medical, 401k, etc represents about $11,000/month. No way would I want to buy a million dollar house around here (say 5br 3.5ba which would sell for maybe $400K in nicer Atlanta suburbs). Because here that million dollar house with a 20% downpayment would leave me with at least a $6,000 to $7k/month payment. If my wife or I lose a job, then suddenly there’s no extra income without cutting 401k contrib, hoping for less tax withholding.
So wife and I have just been staying put with our 4/3 in Scotch Plains, tiny mortgage, and stashing money away for the bad days to come. It does feel good to have no personal debt, and cash bigger than your mortgage. To buy my cars with a check. To buy a TV or camera lens or go on a rare vacation without worrying too much about the cost. Of course, when one’s busy splitting time between working and taking care of a kid, there’s not much time for vacations, or dining out, or watching TV.
Anyway, a family making between 250-500k can’t live like “rich folk” unless they are sure that none of that income will go away. And most would be pretty dumb to assume that.
If the marginal rate goes up high enough, wife can just quit her $125k to $150k/yr job, only miss out on half that, and save money on babysitters/drivers. Plus, then I could relocate to PA, from which my company is driveable (not my wife’s office). Then what does Corzine/Obama get?
Clotpoll,
I’ve never been overly impressed with Buffet. He made almost all of his dough from investing in the insurance industry, which really was a no brainer when he did it. His comments during the forum at the end of IOUSA really showed how out of touch with reality he is. Additionally, as his moniker grew larger than life in the past fifteen years or so (Oracle of Omaha), he has been privy to deals that no one else could possibly obtain. Sort of like the offshore tax shelters employed by the ‘wealthy’. I’m impressed that he is charitably donating the majority of his wealth, but deep down inside I really think that he is an egomaniac and the charitable giving just feeds into the same ugly persona.
The subtext was neither. It was simply to point out that the 250K number is a joke. You can’t just keep taxing income over 250K to keep giving handouts to everyone else. Of course, that’s what O and Corzine are trying to imply, because I’m sure its been focus group tested to death. People are stupid, they like the sound of taxing the other guy to give ME something for free. But the figures don’t add up, you can’t build a welfare state by only taxing income >250K. The clowns were were supposedly brought in to tell it straight, and their even worse than the Bush crowd. I guarantee you will start to see that number creep down in the very near future, it has to, or the liberal panacea doesn’t work.
Barbara, lishoosh, both really good comments. At around $300k/yr in NJ you can live in a modest middle class fashion and put away good savings, or you can live big but with high risk, but you can’t do both.
#98 Stu,
I prefer Charlie Munger.
Ever read “Poor Charlie’s Almanac?”
JBJB and all of you other tax crybabies.
#1: where are you going to go?
#2: Tell me about the size of the giveaways to the liberal social causes and compare them to the billion dollar bailouts that continue to go to the bigwigs on Wall Street who profited as they knowingly destroyed our country. And it continues to this day.
#3: 5% increase on your state tax and your crying like a newborn?
Listen, the public sector needs to cut spending as well as to raise taxes. I do not think the government is robbing Paul to pay Peter. Though I do feel that the government does need to do something about the income gap. I don’t want to have to live in a compound that requires a security detail to leave home.
Never read Munger but I am familiar with the almanac. If I find some time, I’ll check it out.
Better return your movies.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Blockbuster-hires-advisers-rb-14532435.html
JBJB says:
March 3, 2009 at 9:54 pm
” You can’t just keep taxing income over 250K to keep giving handouts to everyone else. …
People are stupid, they like the sound of taxing the other guy to give ME something for free. But the figures don’t add up, you can’t build a welfare state by only taxing income >250K.”
This might come as a surprise to you but people who make less than $250k pay plenty in taxes too - and they’re not all sticking their hands out for freebies either.
And even the much vaunted poor who don’t pay income taxes DO pay property taxes (yes, even if they rent) and DO pay sales taxes and myriad other taxes too.
And what may come as an even BIGGER surprise might be that in the recent months, the big handouts appear to have gone to pretty wealthy people and companies who should have known better - payed for by people with far less than they have. Which shouldn’t really come as a surprise as I have been supporting corporate welfare with my measly tax dollars. And supporting red states with my federal blue state tax dollars too - building them nice shiny roads and paying for peanut festivals.
So cry me a river.
Lisoosh,
We are so in tandem. JBJB what are you driving?
A.West says:
March 3, 2009 at 9:59 pm
“At around $300k/yr in NJ you can live in a modest middle class fashion and put away good savings, or you can live big but with high risk, but you can’t do both.”
Agreed, and you have chosen the wisest course of action. Very “millionaire next door”.
106 - Stu - you beat me to it, and more eloquently I would add.
100. A West
My lord, at 300K in NJ I could live large, really really large. Honestly, are you burning your dollars in the fireplace to roast marshmallows? Wow, just wow.
“Though I do feel that the government does need to do something about the income gap.”
Then you an I have very different ideas about what the role of government should be in our society. Fair enough.
You say it’s just 5%, but where does it end? You know damn well 5% aint gonna do nothing to close NJ’s budget gap. Its a gimmick and you know it, and so does Corzine and O. To make a real difference, that “rich” number is gonna need to come down to 100-125K, but that’s politically toxic so these cowards wont go there. And they wont cut spending that is the life blood of every pathetic interest group at the trough. The whole thing is fing joke.
You say “the public sector needs to cut spending”. Funny, I don’t see that element in either Corzine or O’s budget.
that is to say, at 300k a year I could live in a not so modest upper middle class home AND save loads. Now if you said 125k, it would make sense. 300K yr is pretty lavish, no class warfare here, just the facts.
Looks like this NFL running back fumbled off the field.
Court documents: NFL star McAllister owes $6.6M
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-mcallister-bankruptcy&prov=ap&type=lgns
Why do athletes and celebs always seem to “invest” in car dealerships, restaurants, or real estate?
“This might come as a surprise to you but people who make less than $250k pay plenty in taxes too - and they’re not all sticking their hands out for freebies either.”
You have completely missed the point. Nowhere did I say that people under 250K don’t pay taxes.
I am simply pointing out that the 250K number is chosen for political purposes, and has nothing to do with “solving” income gaps or whatever nonsense. If Obama wants a welfare state, than man up and tax everyone to pay for. If its such a good goddamn idea, I am sure everyone will be happy to pony up. He chose this number because its poll tested, and he is too much of a coward to ask for real sacrifice for the programs he claims will save the world.
Anyone collecting Firewood?
The leader of an Indian tribe was preparing to meet with his people and plan for the coming winter. He knew they had lost their touch reading signals from Mother Nature. He was not sure what was in store for them. So he decided to call the National Weather Service. He was told that they would probably have a cold winter.
That night at the meeting he told his people to start collecting firewood because the winter could be cold.
Two weeks later the leader is uncertain he has given his people good advice so he calls the weather service to confirm their forecast. This time he is told the winter would be very cold. The leader went back to his people and told them to collect all the logs and loose branches they could find because the winter would be very harsh.
As you might have guessed the leader felt he had to confirm this forecast one more time a few weeks later and he again called the weather service. This time they told him it would be an extremely bad winter. Surprised at how the forecast had gotten worse he asked the meteorologist why they decided the winter would be so bad. The forecaster said that they had heard that the Indians are collecting firewood like crazy and that was a very bad sign.
I’ll tell you when I realized it.
I grew up in a single parent home that had to decide between heat or doctor. And that’s not an exaggeration. Christmas gifties one year were USED yard sale items, repainted. (Complete big doll set: cradle, high chair, etc)
So fast forward (a bunch :) of years to about 5.5 years ago: I’m pulling out of my driveway to go to work.
I turned around to look back at the pony now standing in my yard that I had bought home the previous night.
That’s when I realized I was wealthy.
I realized I had turned into “that woman”; a mixture of all the good bits of different people I had met/read about/etc when I was growing up.
I had spent a 1/2 a lifetime working towards my goals without knowing what my goals were. And I had reached them just as abruptly. That day in my driveway, when I looked back at the -best pony ever- and realized he, my pony, was the final goal.
I, officially, “have it all”,
I am a happy self aware no makeup wearin’ jeans wearin’ fatpony ridin’ farm livin’ sans kids with a best friend/husband/partner in crime who makes other people laugh…”
And that is “wealthy”.
“3. That Sunday afternoon conversation with Klink. I’d like to think that Klink’s call wouldn’t have been answered or returned by Buffett in another time. He took that call for more reasons than wanting to help or to be a good American. He needed something. What? I don’t know. However, I do know he got something…and he got it in return for using his reputation to work the pump cycle before his dump of some seemingly bulletproof shares.”
Clot look at what he got! A bailout for BAC and Wells Fargo and Amex. He’s Amex’s biggest shareholder. He’s a scumbag. Plus that bs NYT editorial three months ago telling people to buy American shares. How’s that playing out for you Oracle-boy?!?!?
I want my pony
Well, my sister-in-law in NY spoils and overfeeds her pony, who lives in a shed in their backyard. He never lets anybody ride him.
They had a pot-belly pig that grew huge…almost bigger than the horse. My BIL is a retired chef, and doesn’t like to waste.
The horse and the pony were best friends.
A couple of Christmases ago, they fed the pig some really good leftovers, and the pony got mad. It kicked out a piece of a fence at the top of the hill at the back of the yard. The pig ran away.
SIL and BIL looked for weeks.
Sniffing, and calling. That pig must have fallen off the hill. But nobody ever smelled it.
There. A weird truth, but I thought it wrapped up the Indian tale and Spam’s experience pretty nicely. Couldn’t fit in any cognac.
oh, the horse and the pig were best friends.
Kettle here’s that Buffet article:
The Snake-Oil Oracle of Omaha?
In his recent letter, Warren Buffett defends the trade that many believe made him a hypocrite. While his explanation has some merit — would we expect anything less from the Oracle? — it ultimately falls way, way short.
http://www.minyanville.com/articles/buffett-Warren-CDS-options-brka/index/a/21393
A.West #97
“If the marginal rate goes up high enough, wife can just quit her $125k to $150k/yr job, only miss out on half that, and save money on babysitters/drivers. Plus, then I could relocate to PA, from which my company is driveable (not my wife’s office). Then what does Corzine/Obama get?”
Someone else from the list of unemployed willing to take the job (and be more than happy to pay the taxes)?
Your post reads as if you and your wife are doing the US a favor by working in the US (re, your comments a couple of days about *wonderful* China).
By the way, if you are just over the 250k range, there are so many ways for you to reduce your total income (top of the 1040 line income) to below 250 (using 401k contributions, flexible spending, etc., and your total taxable income will also easily be below 250k) and you don’t have to support the “Commie USA” then. If you are in the 500’s or more, you must already be knowing a few UBS bankers that can get you good deals where you don’t have to pay any taxes at all!
Your post reminds me of “Joe the Plumber”. Your post also sounds like that of a lottery winner that complains about how they now have to pay higher taxes.
S
Pony?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZv6esm_8gU
spam spam bacon spam says:
March 3, 2009 at 10:34 pm
And that is “wealthy”.
Amen Spam
#123 - You really can’t beat Ween for those touching moments.
Stu #106 and lisosh #105…
For what it’s worth, I second/third your comments addressing tax crybabies.
S
Good stuff. I love reading the stories.
Spam (83)
3.65 years for me. But don’t quote me. I’m not known for my math.
Australia heading towards recession.
http://business.smh.com.au/business/recession-fear-as-gdp-shrinks-20090304-8nw6.html
Cindy #127…
Poor you, how can you survive with such lowly income? Do you eat your fingers when you are very hungry? :)
S
Some rich folk will have you believing that Obama wants take all their money (all of it, I tell you!) and get ponies for everyone!
Don’t believe them.
I have it on good authority some of these ponies are actually small horses.
Got to love Ween, Chocolate & Cheese is my all time fave.
Buckingham Green is my personal favorite as well as Sarah!
Pop quiz:
What are the differences between a “mini”, a pony and a horse?
(129) Satry - Oh I get by just fine.
BUT - I don’t have a pony or a small horse. Even my dog up and died a few years back.
you mean you want us to google, or just say the first thing that comes to mind?
A mini is small…smaller…the smallest.
My pencil broke.
Okay Spam - We give.
ROFl, Pat
spam (95)-
You should try the ‘45 Mouton. It’s the shit.
was this posted?
from the NY Times:
Ex-Leaders at Countrywide Start Firm to Buy Bad Loans
By ERIC LIPTON
Published: March 3, 2009
CALABASAS, Calif. — Fairly or not, Countrywide Financial and its top executives would be on most lists of those who share blame for the nation’s economic crisis. After all, the banking behemoth made risky loans to tens of thousands of Americans, helping set off a chain of events that has the economy staggering.
So it may come as a surprise that a dozen former top Countrywide executives now stand to make millions from the home mortgage mess.
[snip]
PennyMac, whose full legal name is the Private National Mortgage Acceptance Company, also received backing from BlackRock and Highfields Capital, a hedge fund based in Boston. It makes its money by buying loans from struggling or failed financial institutions at such a huge discount that it stands to profit enormously even if it offers to slash interest rates or make other loan modifications to entice borrowers into resuming payments.
Its biggest deal has been with the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, which it paid $43.2 million for $560 million worth of mostly delinquent residential loans left over after the failure last year of the First National Bank of Nevada. Many of these loans resemble the kind that Countrywide once offered, with interest rates that can suddenly balloon. PennyMac’s payment was the equivalent of 38 cents on the dollar, according to the full terms of the agreement.
Under the initial terms of the F.D.I.C. deal, PennyMac is entitled to keep 20 cents on every dollar it can collect, with the government receiving the rest. Eventually that will rise to 40 cents.
Phone operators for PennyMac — working in shifts — spend 15 hours a day trying to reach borrowers whose loans the company now controls. In dozens of cases, after it has control of loans, it moves to initiate foreclosure proceedings, or to urge the owners to sell the house if they do not respond to calls, are not willing to start paying or cannot afford the house. In many other cases, operators offer drastic cuts in the interest rate or other deals, which PennyMac can afford, given that it paid so little for the loans.
PennyMac hopes to achieve a profit of at least 20 percent annually, and it is actively courting other investors to build its portfolio, which now consists of $800 million in loans, to as much as $15 billion in the next 18 months, executives said. For the borrowers whose loans have ended up with PennyMac, it can translate into an extraordinary deal.
The Laverdes, of Porter Ranch, Calif., had fallen three months behind on their mortgage after sales at a furniture store owned by the family dipped in the economic crisis. Margarita Laverde and her husband were fearful that they might need to move their four children, three dogs and giant saltwater aquarium into a cramped apartment, leaving behind their dream home — a five-bedroom ranch on a suburban street overlooking the San Fernando Valley.
But a PennyMac representative instead offered to cut the interest rate on their $590,000 loan to 3 percent, from 7.25 percent, cutting their monthly payments nearly in half, Ms. Laverde said.
“I kept on asking, ‘Are you sure this is correct? Are you sure?’ ” Ms. Laverde said. Even with this reduction, PennyMac stands to make a profit of at least 50 percent, a company official said.
Ms. Laverde could not care less that executives at PennyMac used to work at Countrywide.
“What matters,” she said, “is that we know our house is secure and our credit is safe.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/04/business/04penny.html?pagewanted=2&em
JBJB (99)-
The only way to grease the wheels of the classic welfare state is to rape everyone who works on a daily basis.
This thing is going to get real ugly, real quick.
“I guarantee you will start to see that number creep down in the very near future, it has to, or the liberal panacea doesn’t work.”
HE (117)-
Yeah, he got the world handed to him on a silver platter.
AXP went parabolic today because they’re cutting people’s credit limits in an attempt to pare back defaults. Too bad their whole business model is based on getting clients to spend like drunken sailors.
I guess everybody long AXP are all jacked up over the great outlook for their CDs that yield somewhere under 2%. Yeah, that’s the ticket to big money…
Realtor Susie Adler says we’ve hit bottom and “the opportunity is now”:
http://njexperts.com/2009/02/26/but-how-do-i-know-if-the-nj-real-estate-market-has-hit-bottom/
What a harpie shyster.
“It definitely feels like I only get to keep about half of my paycheck”
We should be so lucky as to keep half our income. Taxes are out of control and only going to go up under B.O.
Qwerty (144)-
I logged into Susie’s blog and laid some rat bait.
God, I hope she takes it. :)
I study this stupid stuff, but certainly don’t know all, so here goes.
Minis and horses are genetically pretty much the same; minis were selectively bred from horses with dwarfism. Horses are 58″ or bigger, minis are 38″ or shorter.
“Ponies” are different genetically. They usually have thicker manes, tails and overall coat, as well as proportionally shorter legs, they are wider (fat!) with shorter heads and broader foreheads.
A pony can be a breed (like “dartmoor pony”) that stays under 58″.
A pony can be a “horse by breed” that didn’t grow tall enough to reach 58″ (like a quarter horse)… You would say “I have quarter horse who is pony sized.” (and so not a true pony, just pony sized)
Or you can have a pony (by breed) who grew too big to stay “pony-sized” and is now horse sized…and so you would say “I have a horse sized Dartmoor Pony”.
I have a pony by breed (Connemara Pony) who is *wait for it!* both HORSE AND PONY by size.
The EXACT size of 58″, to the micro hair, is included in both the pony and horse sizes…it’s the largest pony and the smallest horse.
My pony was measured by a show-sanctioning body and he measures exactly 58″ (without shoes after his second birthday) and this allows him to compete in both horse shows and pony shows. He is rare because of this. It happens, but its rare that they are “dead on” 14.2 hands.
Hands?
A hand is 4 inches and the”.2″ would be another two inches, so that’s 14*4″ = 56″ + 2″ = 58″
Read your post clot the bait of 3-5 years for you is overly optimistic.
Nice visual — “a giant, smoking pile of fiscal wreckage.”
Shore #145:
“We should be so lucky as to keep half our income. Taxes are out of control and only going to go up under B.O.”
39% tax rate was the rate under Clinton, and was revised by Dubya to take care of his “have mores”.
When Dubya was contesting, he pushed for lowering taxes because the economy was doing well, and we need to “return people’s money back” [not worrying about the anticipated holes in the entitlement programs like SS and medicare].
When the economy tanked and with a war (of choice), the solution was “lower taxes”.
I fear we will become like Brazil or India with very low taxes (or many ways to avoid them), where the cost of a security detail should be factored in…
US has been the world power through most of 20th century because the American Dream was within reach of everyone. Now, the rich want to make sure that only their kids will have the opportunities to become rich. If unchecked, they will be rich, but in a very poor country (financially and morally).
But, preaching the worth of a good country to the rich folks the likes of which plundered the country in the last few years (and are shamelessly looting the country again with bailouts) is a futile exercise.
S
I don’t know if this is sharing too much or not. I just read a lot of comments here that I agree with regarding aspirational living and savings etc. but sometimes it seems like there’s a complete disconnect.
4yrs ago we moved to Ridgefield, and decided to rent to make sure we liked the neighborhood. I’m sure many here would consider Ridgefield a Bergen County ghetto, but I earn enough to live here, it’s better than the alternatives cost wise and a really easy commute. Long story short, within a year our situation changed from day to night due to medical conditions.
We (husband, 3 kids) find ourselves three years later, still renting, depleted of savings due to medical bills, and completely priced out of the market with a credit score that makes me cringe. We’ve held on barely on a little less than 75k a year.
Anyway, we’re young enough (32)so that within 10 yrs or so we can try again. In the mean time, I feel blessed to be working and lucky to not have bought a home but awful about being one of “those people”.
Qwerty #144
The graph on Susie’s blog screams the opposite of what she’s trying to push. I’d rather buy a home at the “red line” [when I am sure that the bottom is past] rather than on the down slope.
How I wish for some nano-fiber based technology that makes “thin, customizable houses” that can be easily assembled/disassembled. That would make commoditize housing. People that are willing to spend a lot more can get a “chrome exterior”…
S
Sastry,
We would be a whole lot stronger if we spent less, borrowed less, and took less away from the most productive citizens.
House Hunter says:
March 3, 2009 at 7:06 pm
thanks for the info Yikes (previous thread)I have heard good things about the school, the commute would add more significant time for my husband..me not so much. With your wife working in NJ, how do the income taxes work? I suppose I am looking to see where the bang for the buck is. My brother lives in Wrightstown and his property taxes are lower, but then he has to pay a boro tax as well.
not familiar with the boro tax. regarding working in NJ but living in PA … tough one. best to ask your tax guy. if your employer is located in NJ, then you may have an issue.
but if you work in NJ and your employer is located in … say … california … well, it’s not something you need to worry about.
sorry guys, im not buying the ‘250k is nothing’ argument.
is this with or without kids?
how lavish a life do you live?
are you driving cars that are paid off, or new, luxury vehicles?
what kind of mortgage are you looking at?
Silera - Congrats are in order since you have avoided becoming a debt serf.
I have family from Ridgefield, it is not a ghetto, many good solid middle class moved to that town to raise their families. As a child I spent many a Fourth of July at my Aunt’s home in Ridgefield waving the flag and being proud of our country.
You are not “one of those people”, you have put family first which many people no longer will do.
Keep paying your bills and hold you head up high, as you have stated time is on your side.
Silera:
You are welcome here.
You’ve learned a life lesson that’s hard to swallow, but once you do, you will be fatter.
My husband and I are FOREVER MORALLY CHANGED because of medical bills and a unforeseen medical emergency.
We were making LESS THAN 19K a year BETWEEN US BOTH and got hit (as uninsured) for $29K in medical bills.
We made payments, scraped by, asked for any deductions and eventually were accepted for charity care. (only pays hospital basics, nothing else) It took almost 3 years. Those bills were priority one.
NO ONE - NO ONE should have to decide between apt heat and hospital bills.
And you know what?
I read that line you put there, like a huge beacon crowding out everything else you wrote:
“I feel blessed to be working and lucky to not have bought a home…”
See? Your wealth is showing :)
John would be all over Silera. Can we just cut and paste one of his rants?
oops, spam went the kind and gentle route.
Clot,
Sue Adler says she can’t hear you. She’s putting lipstick on her jacked up lips and everyone knows you cannot apply makeup AND listen at the same time…
“sorry guys, im not buying the ‘250k is nothing’ argument.”
250-400,000 a year might not be “nothing” but it does not make one “rich.”
At this level, one can buy nicer shirts and suits and cars and houses and whatnot but for the self-employed amongst us we het hammered with taxes. At this income level we also need to pay the full freight for colleges or private schools, as there is no “need.” Would I prefer Mrs Shore and I to be back where we were years ago? No way. We are head and shoulders above where we were and I am glad of it. That said, we are not wealthy; every spare dollar goes towards retirement savings (no pensions here), towards college for the little Shores, and the like.
(or drive..)
Shore:
can you explain: “but for the self-employed amongst us we (g)et hammered with taxes.”
What taxes are these?
shoreguy
250-400 a year is certainly well off enough to not have to put “need”in quotes.
163.
butting in, self em,ployment tax is a double dip, you are considered both employee and employer and you have to pay twice. I’m self employed and earn a modest living, this kills.
I’ll try to be back 2morrow
nite all!
John’s away for Lent…
Lurking pays.
Maybe 10 yrs from now I’ll have deciphered all the investing tips and will find myself lucky enough to be paying more taxes.
I like Ridgefield, kids are safe. Bus is full of working people.
The house market continues to be unlikeable though. Sale prices down about 13% - asking prices up ~18%. Makes no sense.
Here’s another gem from Suzie Adler:
http://njexperts.com/2009/02/23/millburnshort-hills-january-home-sales-stats-and-market-report/
She lists 26 Harvey Drive as having sold for 6% below asking, after only 50 days on market.
The house actually sold for 29% below asking, after 135 days on market.
How do they get away with such blatant consumer fraud?
there is no “self-emloyment” tax, AFAIK.
Who do you pay this tax to?
spam, yes there is. Its the SS tax paid out by both emplyer and employee. If you are self employed you are considered both and pay twice. It is blatantly unfair and pure science fiction.
“there is no “self-emloyment” tax”
Spam, you have no idea what you are talking about. Self-employed persons pay both the employee’s share and employer’s share of social security.
WHat Barbara said, lol
This is over 7% additional tax. For those of us who are self employed, we live with taxes in a way most people do not; taxation is in our faces and then, speaking for all of us, when we see government mismanaging its finances and then looking to us to fill the gaps (yes us and not the truely rich, whao are able to hide their wealth) it tends to stick in our craws.
“spam, yes there is. Its the SS tax paid out by both emplyer and employee. If you are self employed you are considered both and pay twice. It is blatantly unfair and pure science fiction.”
So is it OK if you only collect 1/2 of the SS benefits in the future if you don’t have to pay the employer part?
174.
I make money on my LABOR, I do not PROFIT from other’s labor. You point it moot.
errrm, your point is that is
I don’t see how that is relevant. My future SS benefits are based upon what I (and my employer) have contributed. If you only contribute half of what I and my employer have contributed, why should you get the same benefit?
hobokenite,
you are two people, I am one. I have one 24 hour day, both of you have two. How hard is this?
Why can’t my employer simply not pay their part of the tax, and give it to me directly instead? I should still get the same benefit correct? Even though I’m only contributing half as much now correct?
hobokenite,
your employer is profiting off of your labor. He owes it to you. I am not profiting off my labor, I am simply being compensated for my labor. If I were to take on an employee, I would owe that portion of the SS tax.
Yes, but if the employer were to give it to me directly (i.e. extra pay) instead of giving it to the government, it would be the same from the corporations point of view. I would have extra cash, half the SS contribution, and should still receive the same SS benefit?
SS is a payroll tax, not a corporate income tax.
I also fail to see the distinction between profiting from your labor and simply being compensated for it.
If I resell widgets that somebody else makes, am I profiting, or simply being compensated for my labor?
you can’t profit from your labor, you can only profit from other’s labor. Labor is labor, profit is profit. Profit comes at other’s expense. Labor comes at your expense.
I fail to see the distinction. If I resell widgets and make $100,000, am I being compensated for labor, or profiting?
if you are the only person selling these things and you bought them off of someone else who made them, then it is your labor. If you have employees to help you sell them, you are profiting from their labor.
Ket: ref 47 - I doubt the Germans will riot. The only riots here in the 30 plus years I’ve lived here were by the students for political reasons as opposed to economic reasons. Students, who have little to begin with, will not take to the streets over economics or hwere their tax dollars go. The West Germans have been pumping East Germany up with billions for twenty years now and although they don’t like it, there’s nary a peep out of them. As far as western Europe is concerned, riots are much more likely in France where they set fire to cars at the drop of a hat. Interestingly, last night I was with friends who own some apartments in Paris and they said France has dodged the bullet so far because over 20 percent of the working population is employed by the government and it is the private sector that is suffering. I guess the government gets its money like we do, by printing it.
Ref discussion of what’s wealthy. Cancer survivor here. I’m rich beyond my wildest dreams. No dollar amount could compensate for poor health.
spam,
“SAS
There it is right there is your comment!”
I missed something again? Its seems as though you singled me out for an off the cuff comment.
“Wealthy” is different to different people. Whatever that may be for you, me, or whomever.
Its nice to read your posts and you seem confident and sure of your definitions.
Maybe we all should follow suit.
or maybe not :)
SAS
guess I will stand out in the shelter for my morning coffee.
No more 5 o’clock bean in my own home for me.
SAS
wait,
isn’t coffe for wealthy people? If you wealthy people want coffe. grow your beans, and brew it yourself. yeah, i know its work, but you will appreciate it,
and…. and…. like me….just like I did…like I say…
crap, this game isn’t very fun.
touché
:P
SAS
Most of the people I know who grew up poor never flaunted their good fortune once they had a little money in their pocket. Bottom line is if you have enough to do what you want, you’re lucky. If you live in a perpetual state of need/want, you’re not so lucky. It’s more about the real estate between your ears than under your feet. And they haven’t figured out a way to tax what’s between your ears yet. Good morning SAS.
from page 6
NEW Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine left some folks wondering if he’s got the right stuff for another term after a gut-busting gaffe at last weekend’s annual Garden State Equality Dinner. As a roomful of black-tie guests - including prominent gay activists, politicians and celebrities - looked on, Corzine took the stage and spoke of his plan to sign New Jersey’s “marriage equality law” this year. With a grand flourish, he whipped a pen from his pocket, waved it back and forth and proclaimed it to be “a very important” pen, the one with which he intended to sign the legislation. Then he left the stage, went back to his table - “and abandoned the pen on the podium,” a spy recounted to Page Six. Snickers from dinner guests grew louder when the pen rolled to the floor. After several minutes, a young attendee finally picked it up, tapped Corzine on the shoulder and deadpanned, “Excuse me, sir. You dropped your pen.”
When did “being wealthy” or more accurately, “deluding oneself that one is wealthy” become a birthright in this country? This board hasn’t been above such snobbery either, what with talk of POS capes and such. My parents raised two kids in a 3-bedroom 1-1/2 bath split level that they never updated and we managed to survive. In those days, you lived within your means, and if that meant you didn’t have a patio or a pool well, so be it. This nonsense all started with auto leasing, when you could drive a Benz even if you couldn’t afford to buy one. then it spiralled from there. Spam is my new favorite poster here, for pointing out the obvious.
As for me, I’m beginning to think that perhaps in the next few years a falling-apart 1970’s kitchen may be the new status symbol as frugality and not spending money one doesn’t have becomes a virtue again.
but for the self-employed amongst us we het hammered with taxes. At this income level we also need to pay the full freight for colleges or private schools, as there is no “need.”
—–
If you are looking at 300+, your self employment taxes (and overall fica) are actually a much smaller percentage than the “lucky poor” do. They pay 7.5% or 15% depending on whether they are working for an employer or are self employed. SS taxes are actually regressive.
Also, with self employment, there are so many ways to get deductions… And taxes now are way lower than they were in the 60’s and 70’s. I guess taxation policy is the new religion [has all the elements of the ones that have the power to wanting to keep as much of it as possible].
S
RE: “talk of POS capes”
The issue probably isn’t with capes, but with “$600,000 capes.”