Haven’t gotten a chance to post this one, but it needs to be posted. From the Star Ledger:
How every town in N.J. rates on income inequality
Despite what Montclair wants you to believe, outside of the typical wealth enclaves like Saddle River, Far Hills, Deal and the like, Montclair ranks as pretty much the most unequal large town in New Jersey. There are few towns in NJ that show such a blatantly obvious amount of geographic segregation as Montclair, less than 1 mile separates some of the wealthiest residents of NJ from some of it’s poorest.
So what’s more important, creating an image of being inclusive and equal, or actually being it? Turns out, there are large swaths of Essex, Passaic, Bergen, and Hudson counties that are more diverse, and more equal, than Montclair.
So what gives? How did Montclair manage to create an image of itself that is almost entirely undeserving? The inclusive educational system? The town’s wealthiest residents have no problem packing Montclair Kimberly full, despite the fact that the yearly tuition is $30,000, making it one of the most expensive private schools in NJ. Sending 3 kids to MKA will cost you north of a million dollars, by the way. Good number of 4th Ward residents probably don’t even make $30,000 a year, let alone pay that for school.
Seems like a load of bullshit to me, especially when neighboring Clifton is more diverse and integrated. Are there towns that are less diverse and wealthier than Montclair? Absolutely, but they aren’t hell bent on creating an image that really appears to be completely manufactured marketing, and not reality. Having just come back from Brazil, I’ve got to say, the wealth gaps are pretty similar.
Seems like a great place to live if you are rich and want to feel good about yourself.
I think the easy answer is to make private schools (including religious) illegal.
Amen to that!
Grim and that is my problem with so called liberals. The rules don’t apply to them. They are hypocrites. I grew up in a neighborhood in the Bronx that by the time I was in high school had became very diverse. We had minority neighbors . We went to diverse schools. We saw the both the good and the bad of diversity. My parents were one of the last non minority families to leave in the late 1990s . Our neighbor who was a minority and great friends with my dad begged him to leave as the neighborhood had gotten so unsafe. Our neighbor left before my dad. Yet there have been many liberals who grew up in Lily white neighborhoods and still live in Lilly white neighborhoods who lecture me on diversity. Hypocrites.
If you thought my comparison to Brazil was harsh.
The GINI index for Brazil is .55, compared to Montclair’s .54.
Oh wait, that is an old number, Brazil now down to .52.
So Brazil as a country ranks more equal than Montclair.
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I’d go the other way. Eliminate all public schools (starting in 2022 when both my daughters are done with Boston Latin).
I think the easy answer is to make private schools (including religious) illegal.
Isn’t using the gini coefficient to measure local townships a faulty premise to begin with? Its generally used to compare nations. I’m not sure exactly what its telling us locally other than that the town may have some very wealthy residents and lower income residents as well.
Also, what is the measure being used to determine that Clifton is more “diverse and integrated” than Montclair. Not disputing that it isn’t, but the gini coefficient would not tell us that.
I always saw the same thing happen at Rutgers. The people on Douglas campus were the ones who screamed diversity but then refused to live off campus past Commercial Ave.
3b, there’s a fundamental flaw in your logic with your “so called liberals” comment.
If you want to eradicate poverty, you don’t have to live in poverty. If you want more diverse neighborhoods, but you want to live in a more affluent (and by circumstance is a whiter ) neighborhood – one may choose to do so, while promoting equality in other ways.
Get it?
yep
grim says:
February 19, 2017 at 10:04 am
I think the easy answer is to make private schools (including religious) illegal.
PloddingLeftist [11:48];
If you want more diverse neighborhoods, but you want to live in a more affluent (and by circumstance is a whiter ) neighborhood – one may choose to do so, while promoting equality in other ways.
Get it?
Not true if you subscribe to the au courant leftist theory that equality is defined by equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity. The whiter, more affluent neighborhood (which I’m going to take a leap and guess that it looks a lot like yours) is by definition racist — at least when someone other than a proud leftist is living there.
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I believe Grim was being sarcastic. The leftists, on the other hand, ate it up. I’m tired of pretending that leftists want this to be a free country.
proud there you go again. Typical liberal with a lecture. One can only understand diversity if one has lived with it. There are positives as well as negatives. Plus you appreciate the diversity if you will of the so called diverse groups and how they view each other. Some of the biggest racists are minority groups who hate other minority groups. I having grown up in a diverse neighborhood witnessed that multiple times. You have not. If liberals truly wanted diversity than they would live in diverse neighborhoods and send their children to diverse schools. They would also welcome low income housing in their towns and all the rest but they don’t. I catch liberal friends and family in their own hypocrisy all the time.
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Anon of course he lives in the white neighborhood. I have a family member who is a huge liberal. I set her up once by commenting on how many day laborers of a certain group I see in her town. Her response oh um yeah but their kids are not in our schools! Hypocrite!!
The problem with liberals is they hate saving energy, and hate saving money. They just want their energy for free, but not from fossil fuels, their healthcare for free, but no with a way to pay for it, their abortions for free because it’s their preferred method of not giving a fu.ck about young children, their blue ribbon education for free (because it’s their preferred way of taking care of the unaborted, so long as the money passes through the hands of the unions), etc. Liberals are just deniers of math and haters of those who understand math, nothing more.
Why is Clifton more diverse than Montclair?
Look the numbers up, because not only is it more racially diverse, it’s more culturally diverse.
In addition, it’s significantly less segregated.
Montclair is approximately 59% non-hispanic white, where Clifton is 50.1%. Montclair has a 4% asian population compared to Clifton’s 9%. Yes, Montclair has a higher black percentage, but that only represents a component of “diversity”. Montclair also only has a hispanic population of 8.5%, versus Clifton’s 34.7%.
Spend more than a few days in each town, and it’s pretty obvious. Clifton, by far, has a richer array of cultural backgrounds and ethnicities. The higher asian and hispanic populations contribute significantly to the ethnic diversity. If you dig deeper, you’ll also find a higher level of personally reported ethnic diversity among the whites.
Clifton’s HS has a higher minority population than Montclair, which is saying quite a bit since many rich whites send their kids to private school in Montclair.
Also, look at any “diversity” map on Montclair and the segregation is incredibly apparent.
grim Asians, Indians and Arabic people don’t count towards diversity
I am looking to purchase a wireless blue tooth speaker . Don’t feel like paying 180 bucks for the Bose. Any suggestions?
Oh, sorry, my bad, I thought diversity meant everybody.
3b and Fake Bourbon owner,
I live in a much lower economic neighborhood than I can afford. So, hold your horses and don’t and take any leaps. It also makes economic sense to me. House is paid off, cheaper services ( including easier to get a good part time nanny), etc.
I voted for Hillary over Trump regardless of the fact that this Orange Turd could may reduce my taxes – but then, if my industry and business is destroyed by this moron, there wouldn’t be much taxes to pay!
Also, It’s true my kids don’t go to the best of the best schools, but I augment their education with a lot of activities outside of school.
Ok, remove Upper Mountain Avenue from those numbers, and put it in its own zip code. what does that do to the number?
The rich have to live somewhere!
Upper Mountain? You would need to carve off at least 1/3rd of the town, including large portions of Upper Montclair, Estates section (below Eagle Rock), etc.
So what are you trying to say? That Montclair is the unfortunate victim of it’s municipal boundaries?
Maybe, but at what point is someone going to call out the bullshit for what it is?
Pretty much every NY Times article on NJ residential real estate holds up Montclair as the pinnacle, shining star of diversity and inclusion in the burbs. (Probably has more to do with the number of NYT employees living in Maplewood and Montclair) But in reality, that’s entirely bullshit, because places like Bloomfield, Clifton, Piscataway, Hackensack, Jersey City, etc etc etc have them beat.
I’m not saying it’s not well intentioned, but their town policies have created a situation where they’ve fostered the exact OPPOSITE of what they intended to. So while the rest of NJ has become more diverse, by income, race, and ethnicity, Montclair has turned into NJ’s own version of Brazil.
The absurd property taxes create a serious housing affordability problem, and it’s geography and distribution of housing stock only propagate the same racial and income segregation that has always existed. But as property taxes go up, so does income inequality, so does the geographic-driven segregation.
Between 2000 and 2010, Montclair was one of the FEW places in NJ that actually INCREASED in white population, from 59.8 to 62.2%, and decreased in black population, from 32.1% to 27.2%, and saw nearly none of the same hispanic population growth as the rest of Northern NJ. This has EVERYTHING to do with their exclusionary high-property tax policies.
So, clearly, what Montclair needs are more bike paths.
People who scream about how diverse and how “inclusive” their town is don’t know what diversity is. I grew up in Bergenfield which is about as mixed as you get.
52% White
8% Black
25% Asian
26% Hispanic
and a whole bunch of others
It’s not segregated. There is no “other side of the tracks”, even though a freight train runs through the center. People were pretty much indifferent to race there and no one brags about it. It’s not some badge of honor. No one gives a crap.
People were pretty much indifferent to race there and no one brags about it. It’s not some badge of honor. No one gives a crap.
But, isn’t this the ultimate goal?
Grim exactly! And most of us don’t give a crap. It’s the ones who scream the loudest about it who need to have a little bit more self awareness.
But, isn’t this the ultimate goal?
Yes, but only achievable when everyone around you is on the same socioeconomic level. This is not possible with NIMBY types. People who live in Montclair and Princeton either purposely or subconsciously survey the neighborhood to make sure they are comfortable living around their neighbors. They brag about diversity to try to convince themselves that they aren’t as racist as everyone else.
ROSELAND — Two councilmen whose racially-charged text conversation was made public last week have resigned.
Councilmen Tom Tsilionis and David Jacobs left their elected positions Sunday, a few days after a text conversation between them in which Tsilionis used a racial slur went public, Essex County Republican Chairman Al Barlas, Roseland Mayor John Duthie and borough Republican Chairman Mary Comito announced in a release Sunday.
“The recently revealed text message exchanges between Councilmen David Jacobs and Tom Tsilionis were offensive and indefensible,” the three said in the release.
Well there is nothing more annoying than driving past the Far Hills Country Day School during morning drop off.
“I think the easy answer is to make private schools (including religious) illegal.”
Pretty obvious Grim has a raging case of Montclair envy. Meanwhile the fact that Montclair is still 41% non white (grim’s stat) is pretty remarkable given how geographically small it is and how “desirable”.
Also given how much white people hate blacks. Esp white peoples with enough money to insulate themselves. Wonder how many of you know Morristown, Morris Township, and Morris Plains are still subject to forced bussing because racism.
I love Montclair…..just sayin.
Just calling it like it is.
“I grew up in Bergenfield which is about as mixed as you get.”
What were those percentages while you were growing up, it most assuredly was not as diverse as it is today.
“People were pretty much indifferent to race there and no one brags about it”.
Seems like it would be hard to measure indifference to race as you say Bergenfield is, however this trend would seem to indicate otherwise.
https://www.schooldigger.com/go/NJ/schools/0150000268/school.aspx
Which to that trend, take a look at % of minorities in a town vs % enrolled in the high school to get another look at segregation and diversity. Montclair performs better than all those towns that Grim says has Montclair beat. And so yes a lot of rich white people in Montclair probably send their kids to private schools but the numbers would indicate its probably not nearly as high as many would assume.
Montclair does get an undeserved reputation as a beacon of diversity and integration, and yes it is filled with nimby/limousine liberals, but I think its unfair to call it the most unequal place in NJ due to its gini coefficient.
Montclair resident?
Grim – Some data in a nifty chart, it looks like racial genocide in the People’s Republic Skools!
http://imgur.com/k2JtG8g
Looks like Grim hit a nerve. Another example of hipocrasy, when some big lib goes out and decides to adopt a kid. Tens of thousands available within driving distance and they decide to go to the other side of the globe. Same mentality…
They do believe in diversity, and they want women, blacks, Latinos, gays and Muslims at the table, so long as they aren’t conservatives.
Grim – Some data in a nifty chart, it looks like racial genocide in the People’s Republic Skools!
Clearly, you are a racist.
Montclair resident?
Nope, someone generally interested in issues of local diversity and segregation and wondering why the gini coefficient is being used as some sort of magical objective measure of local diversity and inequality when it is not. I am familiar with the area though which is why citing Bloomfield as performing better in any fashion got my radar up as well. There is geographic segreation as bad as Montclair and school segregation much worse. The fact that no one wealthy wants to live there is why their gini would not be as high. Even despite that a higher percentage of bloomfield residents send their kids to private school than Montclair.
But I suspect that the posting wasn’t really to try and get a conversation around this but rather just a chance to do some more liberal bashing/hypocrisy trolling which this board has now almost become exclusively used for.
Pete – How can you possibly ignore the gentrified genocide in the People’s Republik that is just too too close to Manhattan? It is only a short short 60-70 minutes commute from Watchung plaza to Penn station. They should be marching every weekend the long mile up Bloomfield Ave from the Glen Ridge border to Mountain Avenue protesting this injustice…
Pete grim is anything but a racist and if you were here any period of time you would know that. In short that comment is a low blow. Grim is a gentleman.
If anybody picked a copy of yesterday’s Sunday Bergen Record you’ll find something very interesting inside, but only if you know where to look. My MIL just drove up yesterday and brought a copy with her. There is an entire section called “Diversity”. It is chock full of articles on diversity. It’s not what it looks like. In the newspaper industry it’s known as “native advertising”. It is an insert that is designed to look like a legitimate section of the paper but it is not that at all. The paper gets paid a set price and it is no different than a flyer for Lowes, except it looks like news. The articles aren’t real, the ads aren’t sold by the paper, none if it is anything except propaganda. The Washington Post includes a similar section titled “Beyond the Headlines” that is paid propaganda from the Russians (stop and think closely about the irony there). So the Diversity section is all BS, it is propaganda, bought and paid for as such. The only way you would know it is, 1.) You are a smart consumer of news or 2.) You notice the faint gray print at the top of the first page of the section that says in all caps, “AN ADVERTISING SECTION OF THE RECORD”. Here is a list of the article headlines for the fake news:
1. Student Problem-solvers Have a World of Ideas
2. It’s Never Too Late To Finish High School
3. Recruitment Tops Port Authority’s Commitment to Diversity and Inclusion
4. Diversity and Life-long Learning
5. What a Business Stands for Can Mean as Much As What It Does
6. Port Authority: Training, Outreach and Marketing
7. These Women Ha e the Tools, Skills To Do ‘Men’s’ Work
8. Companies Forge Employment paths for Individuals with Disabilities
Gini is routinely cited in the press, economic literature, and even US government statistics, as the defacto standard of income inequality. Are you stating that the measure is invalid, or the methodology? Or that it just doesn’t apply when talking about racial or economic segregation?
And provocative trolling of the hypocritical status quo is the norm here.
What is funny about my gentrified genocide comment (at least to me anyway) is the fact I have a black friend who is looking to sell her home where she raised her family over the last 25 years in Montclair. It is all gussied up and staged. They are hoping for some young couples looking to move out of Brooklyn to the burbs cause the rent is too damm high will start a bidding war for the place, and the selling bonus is they get diversity for 1/2 the price.
“diversity for 1/2 the price” – Montclair and you, perfect together.
If only Yogi Berra lived 10 years longer. He might have some great and memorable quotes about Montclair by now.
“90% of the crime is more than 100% black. The other half is Latino.”
“Pete grim is anything but a racist and if you were here any period of time you would know that. In short that comment is a low blow. Grim is a gentleman.”
Read what you want to in to my comment but I never called Grim a racist nor even implied it.
Pete – You mention this is an issue you follow closely. You don’t feel that the perception in the press and otherwise is at least somewhat undeserved? You really feel that Montclair represents an example of a community that is integrated both economically and racially?
“Gini is routinely cited in the press, economic literature, and even US government statistics, as the defacto standard of income inequality. Are you stating that the measure is invalid, or the methodology? Or that it just doesn’t apply when talking about racial or economic segregation?”
I don’t know if the measure is invalid I just don’t think it should be used to measure local townships and their ability to drive down income inequality when the policy levers at their disposal to reduce it are not the same as what can be done at the federal level (tax and transfer, broad based economic growth policies, etc). Seems like the high gini towns are basically towns that have a high proportion of wealthy residents. It should not be a measure of racial segregation or diversity, there are better ways to measure that.
I suppose Montclair residents could support local zoning changes that would allow for higher density buildings but then you’ll really see the nimby teeth gnashing and hypocrisy in full effect. Of course this is true of everywhere, I just don’t think Montclair is necessarily “worse” than most other towns in this regard.
“You don’t feel that the perception in the press and otherwise is at least somewhat undeserved? You really feel that Montclair represents an example of a community that is integrated both economically and racially?”
I already stated at 1:54 that their reputation is undeserved.
“Montclair does get an undeserved reputation as a beacon of diversity and integration, and yes it is filled with nimby/limousine liberals, but I think its unfair to call it the most unequal place in NJ due to its gini coefficien”
At the same time my argument (or trolling perhaps) is simply that a reputation as one of the most unequal places in NJ would also be undeserved.
Pete it certainly sounded like it.
3B,
If I accused him of anything it was trolling, not racism. Sounds like you’re just itching to “play the race card” something I’m positive you incessantly hyperventilate about libruls doing.
Have you spent much time actually in Montclair?
As in, drove up and down North Mountain, Highland, Upper Mountain – end to end. Maybe down Lloyd, Undercliff, Stonebridge, etc etc. Then head down to the end of Bloomfield Ave and then around Mission Street area and the like?
Where else can you see both the top and bottom 1% income groups in the exact same township, separated by a few thousand feet?
Pete grim trolling? It’s his site. As far as race card. Nope not me. Grew up in a diverse neighborhood. The only group of you will that makes me uncomfortable is Muslims because of their intolerance of all the things that so called liberals claim to champion.
Like I said, screaming about this for years:
grim says:
November 19, 2013 at 7:28 am
Repost – On topic for two reasons – Income gap and political affiliation
Montclair always irked me as being held up as the prototypical shining star of diversity.
Household Income in the Upper Mountain Area – $198,000
Household Income in the Estates Area – $226,000
Household Income on Mission Street – $28,500
% of white population in Upper Montclair (Valley Area) – 95.1%
% of white population on Mission Street – 5.5%
Plenty of neighborhoods where the poverty rate is in excess of 30%, even some areas where the childhood poverty rate pushes above 40%. Does this make any sense to you? A 40% childhood poverty rate literally right down Bloomfield ave from a neighborhood that has a *MEDIAN* income of $226,000? I’d love to see what the income quintiles for estates, I bet you the top 5th of the households in the neighborhood are upwards of $350,000 a year income. And a 40% childhood poverty rate down the street.
Nothing to see here….
…
While neighboring Clifton is equally as diverse as Montclair, it certainly seems significantly less stratified – As defined by the mean difference between the whitest neighborhoods and least white neighborhoods
In Clifton – The whitest neighborhood is only 70%, compared to Montclair and Maplewood’s 90+% white neighborhoods. Clifton’s least white neighborhood is only 45% white, giving a difference of 25% across neighborhoods, compared to nearly 90% in Montclair and Maplewood.
You sure these places are really shining stars of diversity? The level of racial and economic stratification is astounding.
5:54 -i see really gorgeous homes in proximity to very bad areas in Maplwood, So. Orange – certainly others. A delicate balance? Stubborn old Money? Who can say…
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HOPEWELL TOWNSHIP — The township schools superintendent apologized to parents for a recent high school lunch menu that served fried chicken to celebrate Black History Month.
The Feb. 16 lunch menu at Hopewell Valley Central High School also listed corn bread, sweet potato casserole, sauteed spinach, mac & cheese and peach and apple crisps.
What’s pathetic is that the people who were offended by the fried chicken being included on that menu are woefully ignorant of the fact that Fried Chicken was popularized and perfected by the black people in this country in the early 1700s. It’s probably the most historically significant food that their ancestors contributed to modern American cuisine.
For domains covering NJ, it is common practice to utilize the Guinea coefficient in lieu of the more widely consulted Gini…..
grim says:
February 20, 2017 at 3:45 pm
Gini is routinely cited in the press, economic literature, and even US government statistics, as the defacto standard of income inequality. Are you stating that the measure is invalid, or the methodology? Or that it just doesn’t apply when talking about racial or economic segregation?
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