From Bloomberg:
Manhattan Apartment Rents Drop as Unemployment Curbs Demand
Manhattan apartment rents fell as much as 18 percent in the second quarter from a year earlier as rising unemployment curbed demand.
The median price dropped 3.1 percent to $3,100 a month, appraiser Miller Samuel Inc. and broker Prudential Douglas Elliman Real Estate said today. Studio prices fell 18 percent to $2,000; one-bedrooms declined 13 percent to $2,795; two-bedrooms were down 5.1 percent to $4,550 and three-bedrooms dropped 4 percent to $7,673. A separate report from broker Citi-Habitats Inc. showed average rents fell 8 percent for studio and one- bedrooms and 11 percent for two- and three-bedrooms.
“People were kind of in a preservation mode, saying ‘I’m not sure of the future so I’m not going to make any leaps,’” said Prudential Douglas Elliman President Dottie Herman. “Most consumers, when they did not have to make a decision, didn’t.”
The number of new leases signed plummeted 58 percent, according to Miller Samuel. Private-sector employment in the city dropped by 91,200 jobs, or 2.8 percent, in the 12 months through May as Wall Street losses and asset write downs topped $1.4 trillion. National unemployment climbed to 9.5 percent in June, according to the Labor Department.
Across the U.S., apartment vacancies rose to their highest in 22 years in the second quarter, New York-based real estate research firm Reis Inc. said yesterday. The last time landlords had so much empty space was in 1987, when the Standard & Poor’s 500 Index lost almost a quarter of its value in three months.
…
“Unemployment has had a much more immediate impact on the rental market than the purchase market,” said Miller Samuel President Jonathan Miller.Landlords agreed to average reductions of 9.5 percent off their original asking rents, compared with a typical discount of 2.6 percent a year ago, Miller Samuel reported.
“Appropriately priced properties are renting at a far greater pace than those properties that are not,” Citi-Habitats President Gary Malin said in a statement. “It is very clear that prices and incentives have played a larger role in the rental marketplace during the first half of 2009.”
From the NYT:
Harlem’s Real Estate Boom Becomes a Bust
Of all the New York City neighborhoods swept up in the real estate boom of the last decade, few became as hot as Harlem. It grew increasingly gentrified and integrated. Its economy developed a lively pulse, and its town homes — stately, historic, but often neglected — fetched prices unheard-of for the area.
But that sense of electricity and evolution, which thrilled some residents and troubled others, has been unplugged. And a single block — West 134th Street between Frederick Douglass Boulevard and Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Boulevard — offers a vivid illustration of just how cool the market and the mood have turned.
On that block, developers have been trying to figure out what to do with at least four town houses they bought during the boom. Two years ago, the developers planned to renovate the homes and resell them for more than $1 million apiece. But they are leaving them boarded up, letting them fall into foreclosure or selling them, in one case for less than $600,000.
From the Record:
Open office space at 6-year high
Bergen County’s availability rate for all classes of office space climbed to 24.3 percent in the second quarter from 20.8 percent in the first period, as that rate for northern and central New Jersey reached its highest level in six years, according to newly released commercial real estate data.
Companies continued to downsize operations in the second quarter, vacating or subleasing offices in North Jersey, as the recession dragged on.
Notably, 410,000 square feet of space in a three-story Englewood Cliffs building now occupied solely by Citigroup was put on the market for lease. A Citigroup spokeswoman said the company has no plans “in the near future” to vacate or sublease the check-processing facility. She would not elaborate and could not explain a four-week-old listing for all of the building’s space with CoStar, a provider of commercial real estate data. Employees with CB Richard Ellis, the brokerage firm representing the building, either declined to comment or did not respond to requests for information
“Any turnaround is really going to be tied to the economy,” said Stephen Jenco, a researcher with Grubb & Ellis, which has offices in Fairfield. “Companies have to be making money to be hiring more employees.”
New Jersey’s jobless rate has risen to a 17-year high of 8.8 percent, and the state has lost nearly 65,000 jobs this year.
How will unempolyment effect the rental market in train towns? The inventory is tradtionally lower for rental homes obviously. Will there be much of an effect and a consequential lowering of pricing?
Thanks for setting that up JB!
Question to the board: Wondering whether folks have had success reducing asking rents in Northern NJ recently. What % of asking were you able to negotiate?
Shelly,
If the traditional demand in train town rentals is at all driven by folks wanting to be able to walk to the train, one would think that when premiums on rents in those towns grow larger than the benefit of not having to pay to commute to the train or to work folks will make the economic choice to forego competing for the train-town apartments. No?
5: We were able to get 15% off ask on a m-t-m w/ first month & 1 mo. security down. Negotiated down twice during our stay so far.
5: NW Bergen “blue ribbon, train town” blah blah blah.
That may be true. The whole “walk to train” is really more of a drive to train as few people are within 5 blocks walk to train in towns like Summit, Chatham, Madison, Bernardsville, etc. Its a true myth and people generally see that once they move to the towns. When we lived in Chatham years ago we were 8 blocks from the train and I my spouse was always being dropped off or driving over to park there anyway.
Question for non-journalism/non-blogger readers, if anyone’s around today.
If you could think back over the last three years, the ideas you’ve read on blogs and articles in the public eye, of these three statements, which would you say is most accurate? Reflect on any changes to your own beliefs during that period.
1. Blogs have provided ideas for journalists about current circumstances, but have not swayed opinion on social direction.
2. Blogs have provided both ideas and social norm direction.
3. Blogs are neither inputs nor outputs to public opinions.
10-college essay?
Parking & driving in to the city runs btw 8.5k to 10k a year. This doesnt include wear on the car or traffic aggravation. I think a lot of the train town talk is more related to the “quality” of the towns than any actual train benefit. Path train towns which are 1000% more convenient are not included in the train town discussion.
Train town to me has just become a nicer way to say upper class.
Is Goldman Stealing $100 Million per Trading Day?
““That Goldman Sachs may just possibly have used security access codes and built a system to acquire trading information PRIOR to transaction commit time points at NYSE.
The profitability of this split-second information advantage would have been and could have been extraordinary. Observed yielding profits at $100,000,000 a day. [summary to address complaints with respect to complexity.]
GS has special access inside the system from its status assisting the Working Group on Financial Markets (colloquially the Plunge Protection Team) created by Presidential Order two decades ago. GC also acts as Special Liquidity Provider for NYSE.
With 60% dominance of NYSE program trading, what’s good for Goldman defines what shows as overall market performance.”
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/is-goldman-stealing-100-million-per-trading-day/
Ask yourself how many people have moved to East Orange and Newark for the train and you get your answer. You would think that the proximity of the train would eventually bring those towns back if walking distance to train was truly important.
12 – correct, altho the path totally sucks unless they fixed it since its so crowded. esp from jersey city.
If I remember correctly don’t they segregate on the morris and essex lines so that people up to south orange ride one train and those after ride another?
thats another factor as to why certain train towns are better than others.
Naw. Just some non-professional, unscientific, non-wikipedia personal research.
“Greenpeace unfurls banner on Mount Rushmore
CNN – 14 hours ago ”
Before I had my coffee, I thought it said GREENSPAN. I could not understand why he would do it but was impressed by his pluck.
#10 It gave me ideas not necessarily change my opinion or social direction.
“GreenSpan unfurls banner on Mount Rushmore”
LMAO
re NJ trains- is there ever going to be a direct line into NYC?
jobs come out in 10 min
12 silera,
well said…….it is the household income of these town’s residents…….not how close are you to the train.
It seems everyone wants to live near “richer” folks. And they can appear rich.
“Harlem’s Real Estate Boom Becomes a Bust”
interesting, but not sure if very accurate.
east harlem is still a dump and I wouldn’t want to stroll through there at night. East harlem had alot of new “luxory” apts being built, some pretty nice. but very expensive.
basically, it was top down building. You put in a nice joint, and hope people with $ will come.
west harlem is a little different. why?
Columbia university. Columbia through eminent domain and big money investors (ex. endowment money). They bought put alot of property, remodeled, and selling to faculty, staff, student housing, and renting building in unit pieces.
I do know, for awhile (not sure if they still have such a program), Columbia Univ was offering interest free mortgages to faculty & staff if they were to purchase one of their units/apts. A pretty good deal. and west harlem/morningside heights are is really neat. To me, its one of the greatest little pockets of manhattan.
SAS
Real Estate pros –
Can someone suggest a web site that lists comps going back 5-7 years. Also a map feature would be nice as well. Trulia and Zillow do not have comps that go back that far. Last question – which site publishes the most recent comps the fastest?
Thanks.
#10 blog is the best way to vent out, at the end of the thread nobody remember how stupid you were.
There is an exception of course.Everybody remember Frank.
talking about Columbia reminded me of my post last night:
intersting article.
should we take bets as to which Ivy league fails first?
I’m a little on the fence about an Ivy League collapse.
while the wanna-be tax havens went retail in the caribbean, real money (and drug money) went to back door Ivy endowments channels, mostly Harvard & UC systems.
“Rich Harvard, Poor Harvard”
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2009/06/harvard.html
SAS
Continuing claims rises again. Watch the spin go the way of the sub-600K new claims number.
Why does anybody care? All the numbers are cooked. If you think unemployment is anything south of about 16-17%, you’re a dope.
SAS,
The area around St. Johm D has its moments.
“while the wanna-be tax havens went retail in the caribbean, real money (and drug money) went to back door Ivy endowments channels, mostly Harvard & UC systems.”
as for UC systems… TIA/CREF handles the money laundering.
talk about thugs, yikes!
SAS
Still_looking from yesterday
My procedure was at Chilton, all of the staff were excellent with the exception of said doc. It actually is a very funny story, well about as funny as an appendectomy could be. It starts of with me in Omaha doing pre-FDA audit inspection training and just goes downhill from there.
It seems everyone wants to live near “richer” folks. And they can appear rich.
Why are the best public schools in NJ are in “Blue Ribbon””richer Folks” towns.
Clot,
Don’t you want good things for this nation? All this focus on the negative. We need hope, not cleat-eyed analysis. If you don’t get with the program, you will need to be force-fed hopium.
And then he realized, he loved big Bama.
You gotta see Pain’s scar. looks like he had a C-Section.
Let me just say that the iPhone rocks!!!
It’s more of a true handheld computer that happens to have a phone built in, then a phone with web access.
I have been assimilated
Pain,
I love Omaha. Great smaller city, especially down in the Old Market area.
If you have children moving to a town with higher class folks in increases their marriage prospects and their job prospects.
I know plenty a folk who staying in a blue collar town and had their college educated daughter hook up with the local garbage man. Seems to me if he could go back in time he would gladly pay an extra 1K a month mortgage and have his daughter married to a rich doctor, lawer or trader at the country club.
yo’me says:
July 9, 2009 at 8:34 am
It seems everyone wants to live near “richer” folks. And they can appear rich.
Why are the best public schools in NJ are in “Blue Ribbon””richer Folks” towns.
Did we have a Lyndon Johnson moment at a GTG?
“Hey guys, look at this!”
Or maybe more like on the boat in Jaws.
“The area around St. Johm D has its moments”
back in the 80s, people use to take their cars their for torch parties and leave them there.
but, its changed face. I like the area.
however, right there, on 108 & Columbus, a big drug outfit that feeds up to Harlem, Washington Heights, and maybe even the Bronx (the bronx is speculation) has shop on that corner. There is a small housing project there called soujourn truth house. Its basically a pipeline. It funnels up from Atlanta, Georgia and the money goes right downtown to Wall St.
I could go into more detail, but its an offline topic.
:)
SAS
hi John,
I will be out in Ridgewood, Queens today.
They have a good bakery there called Rudy’s, great cheesecakse.
and then over to Myrtle Ave to a place called Zum Stammtisch for some sauerbrate.
check it out.
SAS
I can picture it now, a bunch of folks at a bar at a GTG, Pain shows his scar and someone else says, “that is nothing” and shows a nasty knee scar and so it goes until John shows his vascetomy scar and everyone gets thrown out of the place (except John who gets taken into the back room and ravished by the wait staff).
Rahway is arguably a superior train town when compared to Millburn when measured purely in terms of number of trains going into and out of NYC. You can show up at Penn Station any time during peak hours and its never more than a 15 minute wait for the next train that stops at Rahway. In addition, the volume of affordable housing in both ownership and rental form is vastly greater in Rahway than it is in Millburn.
That being said, you can negotiate whatever you want in Rahway right now and make a deal to buy or rent. In Millburn if you are walkable to the train, not so much. Proximity to train means much less if you don’t have the lifestyle (retail, restaurants and schools) to back it up.
There is no train segregation(!) If you take the train from Millburn/Short Hills you ARE going to stop in Orange, Brick Church, East Orange, etc.
Жаль не мое…..
Can always count on you hype to continue to knock me down a peg. How are things? Still collecting severence?
Kettle,
I’d have an I-phone but I had to pay my sister’s rent after her unemployment benefits expired.
#34 Exactly my point.I don’t think it has anything to do about looking rich.
John, how would you relate that marriage theory to colleges?
” I had to pay my sister’s rent after her unemployment benefits expired.”
hugh? you serious?
i thought I was the only sap supporting his adult family members and children.
i don’t feel so bad anymore.
:P
SAS
Without a real keyboard, I can’t see going for an iPhone. Once the Pre gets phone as modem capability, I am all over that one.
Shore, hence why I don’t do get togethers. Can’t trust myself with my own stupidity. Besides kind of hard to explain to the wife that we are going to meet up with folks named Shore guy, comrade nom Deplume and Grim. She already thinks I’m a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic
“Jobs Picture for July 2, 200”
-Nine years of job growth wiped out
http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/jobs_picture_20090702/
SAS
“Besides kind of hard to explain to the wife that we are going to meet up with folks named Shore guy, comrade nom Deplume and Grim.”
lol.
thats the best one I’ve heard in awhile.
I thought reinvestor101 was funny with the bulldozer, but this sniglet is the best.
thanks for that.
now, off to get some petro and stroll to Queens.
cheerio,
SAS
Pain,
Put that way it sounds like a Three Stooges version of a CIA meeting.
July 9 (Bloomberg) — Leaders of the world’s biggest developed and emerging nations agreed to avoid devaluing their currencies to promote their exports at the expense of others, according to a draft statement
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAa_pTOf3Kq0
How dare you imply I am shooting blanks!!! You may be shooting the creamy custard but I still have the full blown tapioca pudding.
Shore Guy says:
July 9, 2009 at 8:44 am
I can picture it now, a bunch of folks at a bar at a GTG, Pain shows his scar and someone else says, “that is nothing” and shows a nasty knee scar and so it goes until John shows his vascetomy scar and everyone gets thrown out of the place (except John who gets taken into the back room and ravished by the wait staff).
#29 yome:Why are the best public schools in NJ are in “Blue Ribbon””richer Folks” towns.
The so called blue ribbon best schools in NJ are all way over rated.
Painhrtz says:
July 9, 2009 at 8:47 am
Can always count on you hype to continue to knock me down a peg. How are things? Still collecting severence?
_______________________________________________
Never meant to knock you down a peg. It’s just a really big scar you have. Things are going well, been working my contract job here in Northern NJ. My severance runs out in a month. The 2 paycheck dealo is helping my savings.
How are you doing?
re: #45 SaS – my father in law has been out of work for 7 months now and no job prospects. I have a feeling I will be paying their mortgage, since when we discussed downsizing all I got was blank stares.
I am thinking of a swapping debt for assets, his nice mint condition Corvette that is garaged most of the year for a years worth of mortgage payments.
good to hear big fella. Busy, want to go back to pharma. Devices is boring no adverse events, subjects are tubes and I’m starting to think they really don’t need me they just want someone to validate that they are OK.
June same store sales were horrible.
MSM blaming it on the weather.
Green shoots?
Heck with that, take ownership of the car with the FIRST mortgage payment. If that does not prompt a decision to downsize, so be it, you get a car, and maybe throw in a couple of additional payments “on the house.”
Now I need to go outside and see if Dad has finish cleaning my wheels.
Same thing, actually you need both. I used to run in a very rich circle for a time being. The girls who were well off and husband hunting would ask a guy before they gave out their number, where did your work, where did you go to school, what did you dad do for a living and what town did you grow up in?
I think they are thinking of their wedding announcement in the NY Times. John the son of a doctor who is a trader who went to Harvard and grew up in Alpine sounds better than John the son of a pickpocket who is a gargbage man who went to Newark HS who grew up in Trenton.
Pat says:
July 9, 2009 at 8:48 am
John, how would you relate that marriage theory to colleges?
HEHEH
both mine and the Mrs kettles phones desperately needed replacement. And for both of us to have unlimited data plans the iphone was the cheapest option when i considered the functionality/coverage. I needed a new ipod as well, so i replaced 2 potential purchases with 1
also i would be willing to bet that there are a number of people on this blog helping family members. You and SAS are not alone.
Shore,
maybe its a generational thing, but after a few days, the screen keyboard of the iphone is no problem ad very easy to use. i actually prefer it to a physical keyboard.
In my dream world i would have a multi-touch screen keyboard for my laptop as well. there are a few prototypes, but nothing really mainstream yet…. one day
Stu – I posted a few weeks ago how JC Penney was a mob scene despite the bad weather, long lines of people buying all kinds of crap. They are really giving the sh*t away if their earnings dropped. If you measured traffic in these stores, it would have to be up up up. Traffic + lower margins = less earnings. I guess the volume wasn’t enough to close the gap.
How many of these stores are in PURE survival mode?
Seneca:
If back to school season is a bust for retailers, I would expect a ton more store closures post Xmas just like last year. Will be fun to watch and to take advantage of. Toys R Us is selling food. Not a good sign.
Stu 63
Toxic food from china?
[52] john
old and rusty tapioca pudding, judging by your opinions and prior posts (or do you still have the sperm of a 20 yo?)
“Why are the best public schools in NJ are in “Blue Ribbon””richer Folks” towns.”
Yo’me,
The higher socioeconomic school districts score higher on sats and hspa tests. And they also attend college at much higher rates. This is not my opionion. Its a fact which can be proven by spending less than 5 minutes on the NJ DoE website.
As a result of this, our public education system spends the least amount of money on the kids who provide the highest academic performance and the most money on the kids who flunk their classes and cant score 800 on the sat.
I wrote a whole thesis on it, and created a multilinear regression analysis to prove my point which was that parents matter more than anything else, and by parents i mean how much education they have, what kind of job they hold and how much money they make, which we all knew anyway but never cared to prove scientifically or statistically.
[35] shore
“I think we’re gonna need a bigger boat”
All Hype says:
July 9, 2009 at 8:36 am
You gotta see Pain’s scar. looks like he had a C-Section.
Was your appendix perforated? Just curious.
sl
re: #60 – John what’s the point of a rich guy marrying some spoiled country club princesses if all she is going to eventuality do is screw the pool boy and take everything you have worked hard for in a divorce?
U.S. chicken feet are being booted out of China
http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSTRE5674D420090708
[50] shore
“Put that way it sounds like a Three Stooges version of a CIA meeting.”
Why, I oughta murdelize ya”
Nice… if only not for the 10:1 reverse split.
FAZ
Real-Time: 54.19
Up 48.55 (860.82%)
9:34am ET
#65 Veto
I agree.I think that is the reason higher educated parents and successful parents move to “blue ribbon,Richer towns”. Not to look richer but towns with high rate public schools.
Tax news of the day:
About freaking time . . .
“Senators Introduce Bipartisan Bill
Promoting Natural Gas-Fueled Vehicles
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) and Sens. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) and Robert Menendez (D-N.J.) introduced July 8 a bill (S. 1408) designed to reduce oil imports by extending and expanding tax credits for vehicles that run on natural gas, as well as for natural gas vehicle manufacturers and new refueling stations.
At a news conference, Hatch and Menendez were joined by T. Boone Pickens, the oil man and renewable energy developer, who said the legislation would eliminate oil imports from the Middle East and make the country safer and more secure.
The bill is similar to a measure (H.R. 1835) introduced April 1 in the House by Reps. Dan Boren (D-Okla.), John Larson (D-Conn.), Democratic Caucus chairman, and John Sullivan (R-Okla.).
The Senate bill would:
• extend for 10 years the alternative fuel credit for natural gas used as a vehicle fuel, the credit for the purchase of a natural gas-fueled vehicle, and the credit for installation of natural gas vehicle refueling property;
• make all dedicated natural gas-fueled vehicles eligible for a credit equal to 80 percent of the vehicle’s incremental cost (currently, only some dedicated natural gas vehicles can qualify for the credit); and
• increase the allowable incremental cost limits to more accurately reflect the cost of producing or converting natural gas vehicles.
Additional Tax Incentives
The bill would increase the refueling property tax credit from $50,000 to $100,000 per station, plus allow the natural gas vehicle and natural gas fueling infrastructure credits to be transferred by the taxpayer back to the seller or to the lessor.
State and local governmental entities would be authorized to issue tax-exempt bonds in order to finance natural gas vehicle projects.
The bill would allow 100 percent of the cost of a natural gas vehicle manufacturing facility that is placed in service before Jan. 1, 2015, to be expensed and to be treated as a deduction in the taxable year in which the facility was placed in service.
The bill would also require that when complying with mandatory federal fleet alternative fuel vehicle purchase requirements, federal agencies must purchase dedicated alternative fuel vehicles if possible.
It provides for grants for light-duty and heavy-duty natural gas engine development to compensate for cutbacks by the Department of Energy in its fossil fuel research budget.”
WOOHOO. This should help my UNG holdings, and the tax exempt bond portion is good for business too!!!
Hey guys.
Any luck in negotiating down the rent on existing leases?
Our rent hasnt come down, infact the bit*hes at the mgnt office increase it every year by 3-4%. I tried to talk to them a few days ago, about how i might move out due to bad employment prospects, and the only words i heard were ‘Good luck. We hope you find something’.
I’m thinking of enquiring over phone as a new renter, and see what promotions are they offering to newcomers and then try to negotiate using that as a base. I’m currently on month-to-month rental lease, so can quit with just 30 day notice. My rent is $1450 for 2bdr/2bath.
Any suggestions?
Veto 65
That is a political inconvenience. If they actually acknowledged that throwing money at the problem wasnt the solution ( helpful, but not the answer)then how are they going to buy all those votes ala “help the children”
That also means that to see real changes in someplace like camden or newark, you must change the culture, not the school budget.
I hope Wilbur Ross, Robert Johnson, Lefrak, etc lose their shirts on PPIP. I’m about to puke, watching these goofs talk about “price discovery” with a straight face.
PPIP is nothing more than an ass-r@pe of the US taxpayer. The prices of this garbage are already “discovered”. They are worthless.
vodka (75)-
The first step of that culture change should be accomplished through eugenics.
SAS,
Oh the stories I could tell!
Like I said Still, long story. Suspect the final doc ruptured it after jabbing me in the side prior to surgery. He wanted to teach me a lesson for being a know it at all. That is the short form version, more to it than that.
re #65 – veto that is hogwash. We all know throwing 25k year per student is the best way to raise test scores. In fact if 25k does not work then we need to make it 35k.
Clot 77
I’m telling you, my “Alaskan Citizen Qualification” proposal would solve a significant # of the nations problems
What? the Porkulus money isn’t being used to create long term growth??? I’m shocked, shocked.
“NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — Fiscally-stressed states are using their stimulus dollars to satisfy immediate needs rather than undertake longer-term reforms, according to a government report released Wednesday.
For example, states are spending education funds to prevent layoffs and maintain programs, a Government Accountability Office report found.
Trying to survive one of the worst economic downturns since the Great Depression, state and school district officials say they don’t have the money to undertake projects such as building new schools and expanding early-childhood education.
Similarly, states are using nearly half their infrastructure funds for pavement improvements, which can be implemented quickly and don’t require environmental clearances and in-depth design work. . . .”
Soooo, the stim bucks are being used to do jobs that state/local tax dollars would have been used for. Any chance we might see some of those tax dollars back? Bueller? Bueller?
Or as they say at Rick’s Mortgage Broker American: “We’ll always have the bubble.”
You are exactly right, I am talking from the girls point of view. Now from the dads point of view a rich only child daughter with a widowed parent with one foot in the grave is the way to go for a wife for a son.
Sean says:
July 9, 2009 at 9:32 am
re: #60 – John what’s the point of a rich guy marrying some spoiled country club princesses if all she is going to eventuality do is screw the pool boy and take everything you have worked hard for in a divorce?
Showdown with Switzerland getting closer . . .
“A judge ordered the U.S. government to say whether it was prepared to shut Swiss bank UBS in the United States as part of a battle to learn the identity of 52,000 secret accounts suspected of being used by Americans to avoid taxes.
U.S. District Judge Alan Gold, set to preside over a hearing Monday of a suit seeking to force UBS to provide the information, asked specifically Wednesday about “receivership and/or seizure of UBS’ assets within the United States.”
Gold said such remedies might be requested of the court if UBS failed to comply, or was prevented from complying by the Swiss government. He gave the U.S. Justice Department until noon (5 pm London time) on Sunday to respond.
Switzerland has vowed to prevent UBS from handing over client information to U.S authorities, in an attempt to defend bank secrecy, and says the tax case targeting its biggest bank is souring diplomatic ties.
Washington has accused UBS of hiding nearly $15 billion in assets in secret accounts but the tax litigation is also crucial for the future of the multibillion-dollar wealth management industry and is pushing several offshore banks to force clients to come clean.
The Swiss Justice Ministry said earlier on Wednesday that Swiss law prevents UBS from handing over client information and the government would seize UBS client data, if necessary, to stop that happening. . . .”
http://www.cnbc.com/id/31822558
Now, I can tell you that UBS has essentially divested itself of these customers. They got letters telling them that if they did not move their accounts, the accounts would be closed. But will DoJ seek to have UBS shut down? Will SEC and the Fed now get involved? This has the potential to be the first major international crisis for the Messiah.
Personally, I think UBS may well be shut down here as the Messiah absolutely cannot blink politically on this issue. That will essentially lead to a trade war of sorts wtih Switzerland.
Or. as Leo might have written:
“All paid-off-mortgage families are happy in the same ways. All foreclosed families are unhappy in their own ways.”
Actually the foreclosed families are happier, they will have no more RE losses, the people who own homes with or without a mortgage are still losing money each month.
Shore Guy says:
July 9, 2009 at 10:03 am
Or. as Leo might have written:
“All paid-off-mortgage families are happy in the same ways. All foreclosed families are unhappy in their own ways.”
check Murphy on this…guy was safe though even though the ump cut him down….
http://web.sny.tv/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w=mms%3A//a1503.v222062.c22206.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/1503/22206/v0001/mlb.download.akamai.com/22206/2009/daily/07/070809_lannyn_post_game_800.wmv&type=v_free&vid=8852&_mp=1
RE education:
Bingo. If parents do not value education and insist that kids put in the time and effort necessary to learn, there is very little that schools can do — regardless of how much they spend — to educate children. Personal and parental motivation to learn, and penalties for lack of effort, are more important than money, once one passes a certain minimum level of spending on basic materials.
Our failures largely come from kids who can’t read and write and can’t do simple addition, subtraction mult and div problems, and these skills do not require high technology or bucketloads of cash.
They do require a bit of effort.
unmod?
Pat- thanks for the kind words from yesterday re the premature athritis. I’ll be the better for it- it’ll kick me off my butt to start doing healthy things that up until now I haven’t needed to do.
Re: Schools, Economic Class etc.: There are shining examples of people that made it in spite of their circumstances. To use the anomolies to discredit the norm is like using the outliers in real estate sales to compute the mean.
I’m as guilty as anyone else of dismissing the immense roadblocks presented by financial situations, upbringing, and community. Probably, just to make myself feel better or less guilty for not having it as bad as others.
Evildoc touched on something yesterday when he discussed the fact that medical care will never be equal. Education, medical care, police protection even civil rights may never be equal. I think what a lot of us continue to struggle with is what is “good enough”.
I tend to lean a higher minimum, not out of pity but compassion which is easily confused. Others tend to think the floor for poverty isn’t low enough, not out of resentment but in a manner of “tough love”.
For the real estate side of it, I’d live in Newark or South Orange if the housing prices reflected the reality. Same with Harlem, Brooklyn or the Bronx. They don’t. The east and west village, tribeca, all the outlying neighborhoods became great because people could buy in cheaply (or squat in some cases) and then build it up. You can’t build up a neighborhood with a buy in cost of half a million or more. You’re pre paying for what might come and don’t have money left over to make the future happen.
“To see real changes in someplace like camden or newark, you must change the culture, not the school budget.”
Kettle, ahmen. if we can’t convince the the inner city parents to kick the crack habit for 9 months and the benefits of breast feeding, how the hell are we going to convince them of the value of algebra and shakespeare?
Thats why my thesis suggested that any extra money we throw at the inner city go toward the parents instead, not the kids, to penetrate the sub-culture and teach them the value of education instead of throwing it at the schools themselves, who just end up spending it on beautiful buildings and over-payed administrators. A child’s experience at home dwarfs any influence they experience in the classroom.
But ideally, as sean suggests, we shouldnt throw money at anyone. We should cut funding at all levels and raise standards by working the children to the bone.
The great depression 2.0 should help with that strategy.
SHore 88
I would add teaching basic problem solving/logic skills and basic finance as well. While some students will extrapolate problem solving/logic skills from their math skills most will not
Ket I was in that category for a long time with finacnes. i found religion about 7 years ago. Then again I’m a product of the lousy Garfield school system. Miracle I can add
Apprently English skills weren’t established as well. I hate participating from work
Veto 91
underlying the education issue as well as most of the major issue sin the US, is the lack of any real time horizon anymore.
Changing the culture in a city or region takes decades, rebuilding the power grid takes decades, sustainable economic growth takes decades to build.
The current US culture ha sno tolerance for delayed results, we are an instant gratification society. Until we can shift our time horizons back out to 10+ years many of the big problems we face may be patched with huge amounts of money, but will not be solved.
The problem lies in that humans think linearly and the world works exponentially.
Pain,
i am no saint. i am still cleaning up from some of my earlier consumerist sanfu’s before i came to the dark side. My own personal awakening ;)
/ steps off of soapbox
I was talking to a friend who was underwater. They have a balloon payment coming up and they just won’t be able to do it. They think going into default is the only option.
They are in a state where the banks can pursue a deficiency judgement. Has anyone seen the banks pursuing vigorously for the deficiency? He is well upside down by about 300k. Bank is not willing to reduce principal. I said they are probably waiting until you default. They will not do anything until than, also reducing principal is not the first thing banks will do. I don’t think he has much for them to pursue in a deficiency. Not to the tune of 300k. Though if a deficiency is pursued do the banks pursue that until it is fully paid off?
Tim Melvin:
I like to think I have a good sense of humor but these people are starting to push my limits. Between commentators putting a positive spin of the horrific retail sales numbers and futures rising on the job report I cannot decide whether to laugh or cry. The retail numbers were vomit worthy. Even if you expected them to be bad, the fact that it was not any worse is not a reason to put a bid in the group.
I often wonder if anyone actually reads the reports or just takes out the headline that supports their position. If you back out the seasonal adjustments raw claims for unemployment were up 17,000 is what I am told by my sources that can actually decipher these things. Continuing claims rose. The auto lay offs not done this week will be done in the weeks ahead. The report points to continued weakness in the economy.
I am not a frequent short term trader but if we pop up over 100 Dow points today I am going to nibble puts on the indexes, particularly retail and financials.
All Hype,
Did you meet/know firestormik? From the same area as you, from what I’ve heard.
sl
10 Pat
Door #2.
Re: Schools, towns and kids who do poorly. Is there really any solution? Can we really change the culture? I doubt it. I’m afraid the chasm between the poor and the reasonably comfortable (a nice house, an interesting job that pays the bills and then some, insurance, a state college for the kids, a vacation once in awhile and a well-used library card) is becoming wider. The middle class will be considered the new rich and the poor will grow in numbers. Not a healthy situation.
32 Kettle
Mrs. Rentsalot agrees.
re: #85 – Comrade – Obama should just toss UBS Vice Chairman Forclosure Phil Gramm in Gitmo and call it a day.
33 shore
“I love Omaha. Great smaller city”
And the average net worth in that town is through the roof!
I love Omaha steaks and Mutual of Omaha
Looking to rent an apartment in the Boulevard East / River Road area. Does anyone know of or has heard of any good rental deals? I am looking for a 2 bedroom, ideally in a newer building. I would like to pay south of $ 2,000 per month,,,,,way south of that if possible.
Porky’s II has more backers, this time it is Buffett.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=8039651&page=1
stater 102,
welcome to argentina
yes, you can change culture. just as we have encouraged and incentivized people to become consumers, not citizens, we can do the opposite as well. is it likely? probably not
“Put that way it sounds like a Three Stooges version of a CIA meeting.”
Or a Three Stooges version of ‘Reservoir Dogs’
if you stood up as a politician and said that ‘our schools are wasting money and we need to cut funding and raise standards through good old fashion hard work’, your career would end immediately because the unions would destroy you.
Thank god I needed nothing more from a teacher other than a rubber stamp to move me to the next grade.
Shore Guy says:
July 9, 2009 at 10:09 am
RE education:
Bingo. If parents do not value education and insist that kids put in the time and effort necessary to learn, there is very little that schools can do — regardless of how much they spend — to educate children. Personal and parental motivation to learn, and penalties for lack of effort, are more important than money, once one passes a certain minimum level of spending on basic materials.
Our failures largely come from kids who can’t read and write and can’t do simple addition, subtraction mult and div problems, and these skills do not require high technology or bucketloads of cash.
They do require a bit of effort.
Didn’t Sean Penn drop out of the Farrelly Brothers remake of the Three Stooges?
Penn as Larry, Jim Carrey as Curly, and Benicio del Toro as Moe.
Was supposed to come out next year.
57 Stu
“June same store sales were horrible. MSM blaming it on the weather.”
Odd, that one. So, on a rainy Saturday folks are more likely to go to the beach or the zoo than the mall, and on a sunny day folks are more likely to go to the mall than the beach or zoo?
Seems unlikely.
I guess the MSM assumes that on sunny days we go to the mall and on rainy days we stay home drinking hot chocolate and watching reruns on the teevee. Which explains why no one goes to the beach or zoo anymore.
From homeless to Harvard: graduate sets sight on success
Khadijah Williams is going to Harvard despite being homeless and attending 12 schools in 12 years.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2009364589_harvard21.html
I’m such a sap. This story is so amazing and sad.
There are no poor
The following are facts about persons defined as “poor” by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:
* Forty-three percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
* Eighty percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, in 1970, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
* Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
* The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
* Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 31 percent own two or more cars.
* Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
* Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
* Eighty-nine percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and more than a third have an automatic dishwasher.
60 john
“The girls who were well off and husband hunting would ask a guy before they gave out their number, where did your work, where did you go to school, what did you dad do for a living and what town did you grow up in?”
Those kinda girls never got my number.
Those kinda girls take half.
r:
Our poor think they’re poor because they don’t have the means to travel to the 2nd and 3rd world to see how poor poor people really live.
Stu +1 I have seen truly poor and the folks in this country don’t get it
65 veto
“which we all knew anyway”
too true. Certainly anyone who’s ever read Stephen Jay Gould’s ‘The Mismeasure of Man’ knew.
Pat (10) –
1. Blogs have provided ideas for journalists about current circumstances, but have not swayed opinion on social direction.
2. Blogs have provided both ideas and social norm direction.
3. Blogs are neither inputs nor outputs to public opinions.
Interesting topic. From my personal experience, I feel that the place where blogs have had the most influence is in shaping the opinion of the public who are open to learning (prime example, being this group we have over here). Blogs obviously have not had a lot of influence in shaping the discussions amongst the general public and media, else we would not be complaining about the MSM. A lot of this has to do with dependency on advertising by the same interests whom the media should be investigating without any bias.
Before finding blogs, I was a sheep. I am probably less of one now because the blogs provide an output for a level of analysis which the MSM does not.
However, I do not think that blogs can supplant the MSM, because all of them depend on the newspapers to provide stories/reports and then build on these stories.
After all this rambling, I don’t feel that I have addressed your questions, but have gone off on a tangent.
In California, Even the IOU’s Are Owed
The only thing worse than being issued an i.o.u. rather than a check from the State of California may be not getting the i.o.u. at all — at least in time to meet the deadline of your bank. But across California on Tuesday, many vendors who had been told they would receive the i.o.u.’s instead of actual money said they had not yet received them. And if they do not arrive soon, they may be hard to turn into cash.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/us/08california.html?ref=business
There’s a lot that can be done. PTA, Big Brothers & Sisters, Boys & Girls Clubs, Sports, Arts, School Activities all do tremendous things for kids that just don’t have the priviledge – and unfortunately I have to call it that – of having a responsible or capable or available parent. The reasons can be drugs, laziness, lack of interest or what I think is probably the least mentioned- they’re working.
Even with great parents, there are kids that need more than tests and a warehouse. I find activities lacking in Bergen County. In the city, when I grew up I could walk anywhere and participate is a boatload of things I was interested in without once needing my mother to do more than sign a sheet.
In Jersey just for the sports I have to sign on to drive them everywhere and I can’t make every game. I am not there 10-12 hrs a day because I work. Also, anything beyond sports like dance or arts is all financially out of my reach.
Combining school districts and resources would help make sure that after school programs are funded so that latchkey kids get help and a snack to do their homework after school. All of this stuff worked at one point and it just falls to the wayside. Head Start is PROVEN to make a huge difference with children and yet, in order to place my son in preK I would have to pay 5K. I don’t have it.
There is a lot that can be done- smartly, to improve not only schools but the environment for kids. Currently, it seems that parents with more money are getting better results.
It’s preventive and efficient to deal with kids. Eventually the ones that aren’t end up costing us in crime, prison terms and social services.
You guys have gotten me to have second thoughts about buying a place that is 30% off 2006 price. I wonder if I should wait for more pain. I am in no rush.
Alap, stop questioning the american mantra.
buy now, pay later.
he who spends the most wins.
and most importantly, re only goes up over the long run so there is no way you can ever lose.
(I learned that last one from a foreclosure seminar infomercial)
Actually, these were not gold diggers, these were filthy rich girls. One girls Dad was a retired Big 4 Partner and her Mom a retired White Shoe Law Firm Partner. Plus there were old money. The other girls Dad had a net worth of 800 million and had no son, only two daughters. These girls were making sure they were not getting taken for a ride.
SirRentsalot says:
July 9, 2009 at 10:42 am
60 john
“The girls who were well off and husband hunting would ask a guy before they gave out their number, where did your work, where did you go to school, what did you dad do for a living and what town did you grow up in?”
Those kinda girls never got my number.
Those kinda girls take half.
91 veto
“raise standards by working the children to the bone”
now, this part I’m not sure that I agree with. I don’t know about you, but it’s my experience that today’s youth work twice as hard as my generation or any other generation ever did in school. I see little kids on the way to school with stacks of books that are heavier than the kids are. Kindergarten is no longer the introduction to social interaction and group play that it was when we were toddlers; it’s full-blown academia, and if the kid isn’t reading fluently before 1st Grade they put him on Ritalin.
I do admissions interviews for my alma mater, and the resumes these kids have are insane; no one I went to college with would compete with these kids in terms of academic and extracurricular accomplishment, and yet most of them don’t even gain admission. The stress that kids today deal with in pursuit of the brass academic ring is through the roof, and I don’t think increasing it is the answer.
One of the problems with public education is that we are so panicked by ‘qualifications’ that we can’t get competent teachers into classrooms or administrators into school offices. If you have a PhD in biology from an Ivy League, you are NOT qualified to teach high school biology in our public schools. You’ve finished your PhD after a miserable 7 years, and now you’d be required to go to school for another two years to qualify to be a public school teacher. That’s absurd. The current system suffers from adverse selection when it comes to determining who will actually want to teach at that level.
So we’ve got a system that pre-selects the lesser lights as teachers, and schools that are run by unaccountable local school boards (really, who IS it who’s on the board of the public schools in the urban ghettos, and is local un-elected control of everything at those schools effective, or is it just a recipe for uncontrolled graft?).
Now, I agree that the overarching problem is the socioeconomic status of the parents and how that affects their outlook on education and how they impart that outlook to their children. It would be nice if we could find a way to change those parents’ circumstances, but I don’t know that that’s realistic, and it’s certainly a recipe for expanding the welfare state rather drastically.
There are no easy answers here. But I think it’s clear why private schools perform better than public schools, and it has nothing to do with ‘accountability’.
“That will essentially lead to a trade war of sorts wtih Switzerland.”
Nom, that would be a disaster! Where would we get our … our … stuff we get from Switzerland!?!
Sir Rent
i agree with most of what you just said, but i would add that in my opinion we should consider that you cannot make the “poor” disappear. There will always be a subset of poor in any society. You could give the entire pentagon budget to social programs and you would still end up with a subset of “poor”. perhaps tricked out, but still poor.
being poor seems to me (mea culpa, i cant claim to have ever been poor and understand i am making some judgments here)that it has 2 components, a mental component and a social component. if you are born into a ghetto in baltimore, then you lost the social lottery. but with the proper social infrastructure someone who was mentally motivated should have the ability to move upwards.
such an infrastructure would need to supply basic critical learning skills an an alternative environment to having to hang out on the street while mom run drugs out of the apartment.
However all the social infrastructure in the world is useless without the will to utilize it.
re: #128 – I actually have an account with UBS. Should I be worried that Obama is going to seize it?
I’ve read the poor stats thing, they were compiled by The Heritage Foundation. Many of those “fabulous” things the poor have are ridiculous to even consider.
– A 3 br 1 1/2 bath house in Chatham isn’t the same as that same house in Camden, Detroit, Newark etc.
– Many of America’s poor are the elderly and farmers that would account for the large amount of living space. Plus American houses are just built different than most of those countries because we always had more space.
– Our transportation system necessitates car ownership outside of major urban areas.
– Listing the appliances is just ridiculous. Try using rabbit ears to get reception. An AC costs 100$ at Walmart
Fact is, there are poor people. If you end up poor, the poor police don’t come in and take all your “rich” stuff from you so you can be “really” poor.
Are there scammers? Sure there are but they definately don’t exist solely on the bottom of the totem pole. The same broad brush used to paint those that earn over 250K doesn’t reflect reality.
113 sean
“Penn as Larry, Jim Carrey as Curly, and Benicio del Toro as Moe.”
Because, when I think ‘funny’, I think Sean Penn and Benicio del Toro!!
116 r
I’ve seen those bullets bouncing around the fever-swamps of the internet, but I’m curious about their provenance? Aside from the fact that they are, for the most part, meaningless, where do they actually come from? The best I can make out, from the comment section of places like The American Spectator, is that they are culled “from various government reports.”
Seems highly dubious.
126 john
“Actually, these were not gold diggers, these were filthy rich girls.”
Then why did you describe them in a manner that one describes gold diggers? If it quacks like a duck…
Sir, I think we also need to toughen up and that means putting our kids through the ringer like we did 50 yrs ago but that wont happen while we are fat and happy, coming off a 30 yr boom where everything came relatively easy.
I dont know your alma mater but maybe you are speaking about the top brass. Our top schools probably need to chill out a bit but im speaking of the middle class and lower crust apathetic video game playing public school child. they are hardly over worked.
Many asian countries are sending their kids to school 8-5pm, no summer breaks.
That is a completely different approach, resulting in a more robotic, less creative end-product, but this is the competition that will be fighting for our children’s dinner.
When Americans have fallen two steps behind and our college children line up with bachelors degrees in droves to get a 25k job at a global chinese company, we then might agree that its ok to work our children to the bone.
Counting on churning out a Bill Gates every other year has its risks but i agree we should pursue this too.
btw, good commentary. i dont disagree with any of it and im certainly no expert. just someone with an opinion.
129 kettle
I agree. Was actually trying to say that, but I must have been a bit inartful. Throwing money at the poor won’t help. Midnight basketball might.
FXP volume way up again.
clot,
enjoy!
Distressed Commercial Property in U.S. Doubles to $108 Billion
Commercial properties in the U.S. valued at more than $108 billion are now in default, foreclosure or bankruptcy, almost double than at the start of the year, Real Capital Analytics Inc. said. There were 5,315 buildings in financial distress at the end of June, the New York-based real estate research firm said in a report issued today. That’s more than twice the number of troubled properties at the end of 2008. Hotels and retail properties are among the most “problematic” assets following bankruptcy filings by mall owner General Growth Properties Inc. and Extended Stay America Inc., according to the report.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=afTeVIC9hmY0
AZ bagholder:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124689287561700991.html
“that means putting our kids through the ringer like we did 50 yrs ago”
Did we actually do that back then, though? I’m not sure I buy into the idea that kids in school in the ’50s and ’60s were working harder than kids today are. And I would guess that the percentage of kids who were in school at all was much lower.
Shipping flashes early warning signals again
Port statistics are revealing. They were a leading indicator before the production collapse in the Japan, Europe, and the US over the winter, and they may be telling us something again. Amrita Sen at Barclays Capital says the number of Baltic Dry ships waiting to berth — mostly in China and Australia — has begun to fall after peaking at 154 in mid-June. The Capesize Iron Ore Port Congestion Index (a new one for me, I must confess) is replicating the pattern seen a year ago just before the commodity boom tipped over.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100000188/shipping-flashes-early-warning-signals-again/
Sir- the stats were pulled together by Heritage Foundation.
– Midnight Basketball
– After school homework programs and activities like dance, art, karate, music
– Head Start
– Basic vision tests and hearing tests at school.
– Full day summer activities
Ridgefield where I live is really proactive in many ways. There is a youth center and recreation center that is open every day til 10 pm for the kids. It keeps kids out of a dark park or vacationing parent’s basement and in front of adults and a youth officer and volunteer parents.
All the programs that offer activities also directly help with parents that are working by not taking money out of their pocket for day care or summer camp. It’s basic stuff that really helps.
Sir rent 140
once again i agree. i dont know that it was “harder”. I think the difference was in quality. We had more time available for quality interact between both teachers/students/ and parents/children.
over the last 60 years we have seen the drive to increase productivity lead us to squeeze as much interaction/activity in as short a period as possible, and that is a very ineffective learning method for most, when you are trying to learn core skills such as reading writing, and math.
The interesting thing is that from a philosophical point, automation and efficiency were supposed to allow the average joe to maintain their lifestyle while dedicating less of their time to work. however that got inverted and has come to mean you must work harder and faster ending up in more time at work needed to acquire the same amount of resources that were previously
kettle
too right
Did we actually do that back then, though?
Sir, look into education in light of the cold war arms and space race.
during the 50s we pushed our students to the brink of insanity. realizing that putting a man on the moon, splitting atoms, creating smart bombs and breaking soviet intelligence code was only going to happen with bright students who worked themselves to the bone.
look up Mcnamara and the era of statistical analysis and breakthroughs in mathematics during that time period.
‘The Beautiful Mind’ with russell crowe going nutso was based on that whole idea.
im not saying i condone that approach but we’ve all been living off the dividends of that hard work.
For the renters out there.
Make sure you ask your landlord for at least 10% off when it comes up for renewal.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a76.V5IfVlrI
The stats are from the Heritage foundation using US Census Data. Don’t believe any of it of course because the Heritage Foundation has an axe to grind.
Alternatively, believe anything you want from advocacy groups seeking funds to help the poor. They are entirely altruistic and would never exaggerate the plight of the poor to illicit sympathy and extra funds for their cause. When the advocates at “Feeding America” says that 1 out of 8 Americans are hungry it’s not necessary to question the provenance of that statistic because liberal groups seeking donations or federal funds never lie.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg2064.cfm
It looks like the feds are expanding their product line to NINAs in addition to %125s.
This should end well.
Commercial Real Estate Is a ‘Time Bomb,’ Maloney Says
July 9 (Bloomberg) — The $3.5 trillion commercial real estate market is a ticking “time bomb” that may lead to a second wave of losses at large U.S. banks, congressional Joint Economic Committee Chairwoman Carolyn Maloney said.
About $700 billion in commercial mortgages will need to be refinanced before the end of next year and “doing nothing is not an option,” Maloney, a New York Democrat, said in a statement at a committee hearing today.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=awM5pnHE4xas
Tosh, 148
If frank can get that through, then its time for me to go home shopping with as little money down as possible. why should i care if the government wants to foot the house note??? ;)
#148 – Alright, they’re not exactly NINAs, more like home eqs.
#150 – Agreed.
#135 veto: I am not sure if your 25k a year comment was negative or not.
But IMO for a young person right out if school 25k to start in many instances is not bad, for someone graduating with a standard BA/BBA.
Part of the problem is parents and kids today seem to believe IMO that some kid right out of school deserves the big bucks jobs, even if all they have to offer is the fact that they graduated from a 4 year college,
I know lots of middle class kids who have graduated or will be graduating, who are 22,-23 years old or older,and have never worlked a day in their life, not even in the summer. These are all kids from a middle class background.
Ironically back in the day when I was at Goldman when it was a partnership, all the partners kids had summer jobs, or were teaching English in Central America or somewhere else.
Their parents were not just throwing cash at them. That IMO is the difference between the rich,and those that pretend to be rich.
#153 – 3b – Part of the problem is parents and kids today seem to believe IMO that some kid right out of school deserves the big bucks jobs
There are some, I’ll grant you, that think exactly that.
Quite a few others would be happy with a salary that would allow them to move out of Mom ‘n Dads. 25k just isn’t going to do that.
One step closer to populous utopia:
Stupid buys home. No money down, funny money load. Stupid fills desk in office. Stupid gets laid off. Stupid gets home paid off.
http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2009/07/09/frank_proposes_home_loan_plan_for_jobless/
Shelley says:
July 9, 2009 at 7:03 am
“How will unempolyment effect the rental market in train towns? The inventory is tradtionally lower for rental homes obviously. Will there be much of an effect and a consequential lowering of pricing?”
I know someone who owns a lot of train town rentals.
Occupancy is down. He mentioned the following factors:
Downsizers can’t sell their homes.
Young people staying with their parents.
Renters doubling up and sharing.
145 veto
I thought we landed on the moon in 1969 despite a generation of free-loving potheads. :)
I would point out that it was 1955 when Rudolf Flesch wrote the book “Why Johnny Can’t Read”, which was an indictment of the results of American public education of the time.
tosh 3b,
Wage arbitration through globalization has occurred much faster then cost of living has moved to come in line with the reduction in wages. Whether and to what degree that ever happens is an open debate.
veto that says:
July 9, 2009 at 10:17 am
“Thats why my thesis suggested that any extra money we throw at the inner city go toward the parents instead,”
I read about some VERY successful programs in poor areas which did just that.
They trained the parents to help their kids, set supervisory goals and even gave out “parenting grades”. By all accounts it cost very little and worked a charm.
Wish I could find the link.
3b, good point.
i meant lower paying jobs.
25k for college grad isnt that bad.
i should have said 15K, to make the point.
It was a private program in NYC. Really out of the box thinking that actually worked.
http://wfnetwork.bc.edu/blog/parental-incentive-program
#158 – ket – Yes it has. I suppose it’s all point to an inevitable decline in the US standard of living.
Every generation thinks it’s kids are lazy fools:
“None of the technological aspects of the flight troubled Americans’ thinking about Sputnik’s meaning. It was the schools, stupid. Proof arrived with the issue of Life for 24 March 1958.
On the cover, the words “Crisis in Education” were emblazoned in red letters on a black background. The cover featured portraits of two high school juniors, Alexei Kutzkov glaring out from Moscow and an easysmiling Stephen Lapekas gazing out from Chicago. Inside, pictures showed Alexei conducting complicated
experiments in chemistry and physics and reading aloud from Sister Carrie in his English class. Out-of-school pictures showed him playing chess, standing in front of a bust of Russian composer Mikhail Glinka at a concert,
and reading from an English/Russian phrasebook
while riding the metro to a science museum. Text under pictures of two teachers indicated that they taught Alexei material considered too advanced for U.S. high schools — organic chemistry and the theory of mathematical
inequalities.
By contrast, Lapekas is seen at a typewriter (“I type about one word a minute,” the caption quotes him) and retreating from a geometry problem on the blackboard (caption: “Stephen amused class with wisecracks about his ineptitude”). A picture of Stephen standing
in front of the class reading from Victoria Regina is shot over a girl’s shoulder and reveals her looking at Modern Romances magazine. Out-of-class pictures show Stephen
walking his girlfriend to school, swimming (11 hours a week, says the text), and dancing in rehearsal for the school musical (for two months, the text advises).
The litany of charges was almost endless. The Soviet Union was producing twice — or was it three times? — as many engineers and scientists as we were. The average Soviet student was years ahead of even the brightest U.S. high-schoolers. Not enough math and science
were being offered in our high schools. Gifted students were being neglected. Other European countries’ education suffused with anti-intellectualism.
Bestor, a history professor, claimed that “we are less educated than 50 years ago.” He claimed that the percentage of high school students taking some science had dropped from 84% in 1900 to 54% in 1950; mathtaking
had plummeted from 86% to 55%. For a historian,
this was a remarkable statistical lapse. Apparently, Bestor was not aware that in 1900, the high school graduation rate was 7%. It would hardly be surprising that students in such an elite group would be studying
mathematics. By 1950, the graduation rate had moved past 60%. [High school graduation rates actually peaked in the mid 1980s – ed.]
The response of educators to such claims was relatively lame. For some of the claims there were no handy numbers. Paul Elicker, executive secretary of the National Association of Secondary School Principals (NASSP),
offered one of the more elaborate rebuttals. Elicker showed that the millions of men who were tested by the Army in World War I posted a grade level of 6.8, while those tested for World War II scored at 10.5. This refuted,
Elicker argued, Bestor’s charge that we were less educated now.
Elicker also observed that we didn’t have much reliable information about the Russian schools and related NASSP’s experience of serving for 10 years as the agency to select a dozen public school students to study at a “high-ranking” school in England. “They held their own with their English schoolmates,” he wrote. Not exactly overwhelming evidence, but indicative of the difficulty in making any compelling data-based comparative statements in those days.
As for the neglect of the gifted, Elicker pointed out that the number of programs for gifted-and-talented students was growing. Moreover, a Carnegie report from 1908 revealed large percentages of students admitted to
elite schools with “conditions.” At Harvard, for instance, 49% of freshman had conditions, while at Yale the figure was 58%. Students with “conditions” would today be called students in need of remedial courses. Elicker
observed that, at these schools in the 1950s, there were no students with conditions. Finally, this “‘scholarless’ American public high school” was also the greatest supplier
of those tapped for the learned society Phi Beta
Kappa.
http://www.america-tomorrow.com/bracey/EDDRA/k0710bra.pdf
Stu/Pain –
There ARE truly poor people here. Not at India slum/chop off a leg to be a more successful begger level, granted, but they do exist.
There really are whole families living in cars (and holding down jobs). There really are people going to sleep hungry at night. There are people dying from treatable diseases because they can’t afford medicines.
They’re just not that visible.
[131] sean
UBS in the US, or UBS offshore. If offshore, are you filing FBARs and declaring income? If so, you have no worries, and if you haven’t gotten a letter from UBS, its a domestic account so the feds know about it anyway.
[129] sir
I advise you to stock up on cuckoo clocks and chocolate.
“About $700 billion in commercial mortgages will need to be refinanced before the end of next year and “doing nothing is not an option,” Maloney, a New York Democrat, said in a statement at a committee hearing today.”
Why?
#157/163 sirrentsalot: Agreed to a point. But the sense of entitlement that I see now does not seem to have been the case in past generations.
Plus the U.S. today is dealing in a global environment, we are no longer necessarily the best, brighest, etc. Who would have ever thought 20 years ago, that China would be where it is today?
http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2009/07/09/frank_proposes_home_loan_plan_for_jobless/
NOW I know who the f*ck Frankis!!
sl
HEHEHE 167
Exactly.
Or yet another too big to fail that the taxpayers get to finance.
We, the citizens, are f*cked.
sl
lisoosh 164
America’s poor:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/31/AR2008103101756_pf.html
“Every generation thinks it’s kids are lazy fools”
Except this generation. We assume are kids are the best and brightest, which may be true from some aspects.
of course the media panders to this notion as well.
toshiro_mifune says:
July 9, 2009 at 11:47 am
It looks like the feds are expanding their product line to NINAs in addition to %125s. This should end well.
tosh: To old guard Bergen County WASP-types, NINA means “No Irish Need Apply”….
photo essay from my post at 171
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2008/11/07/GA2008110701589.html
Ket – Appalachia is tough. Lot of stories in NJ too.
I’m involved with a charity that works on helping the working poor help themselves.
A lot of them are women with kids who have gotten out of abusive relationships and been left with nothing. A lot of times the problem isn’t motivation – it’s the belief that they can even do anything for themselves or that they have a place or a future. People strive for more when they believe they have a chance to attain it. Without hope they just become zombies.
Many work full time for minimum wages. Those wages hardly cover the cost of a one bedroom apartment, never mind daycare/after school care, food etc. Without savings they can’t manage the down payment on an apartment anyway so get ripped off at motels. This area is full of families like that.
Very interesting.
http://www.visualeconomics.com/how-the-average-us-consumer-spends-their-paycheck/
Oh, now I see why doing nothing is not an option:
1 JP Morgan Chase & Co $14,600 $4,600 $10,000
2 Triumvirate Environmental $12,200 $12,200 $0
3 American Bankers Assn $11,500 $0 $11,500
4 Aircraft Owners & Pilots Assn $10,000 $0 $10,000
4 American Federation of Teachers $10,000 $0 $10,000
4 Cantor Fitzgerald $10,000 $10,000 $0
4 New York Life Insurance $10,000 $0 $10,000
4 New York Mercantile Exchange $10,000 $0 $10,000
4 Service Employees International Union $10,000 $0 $10,000
4 UBS AG $10,000 $0 $10,000
11 Fisher Brothers $9,550 $9,550 $0
12 American Assn for Justice $9,000 $0 $9,000
12 Credit Union National Assn $9,000 $0 $9,000
12 International Assn of Fire Fighters $9,000 $0 $9,000
15 Durst Organization $8,400 $8,400 $0
16 Estee Lauder Companies $8,000 $8,000 $0
16 Investment Co Institute $8,000 $0 $8,000
16 Laborers Union $8,000 $0 $8,000
19 American Postal Workers Union $7,500 $0 $7,500
19 Natl Assn/Insurance & Financial Advisors $ 7,500
“Plus the U.S. today is dealing in a global environment, we are no longer necessarily the best, brighest, etc. Who would have ever thought 20 years ago, that China would be where it is today?”
I posted an article 2 weeks ago about how much drive this chinese parents and kids have.Not letting their kids do anything but study to pass an SAT equivalent.The first on the family to get to college.
This is the kind of drive we had when we send people to the moon.We are more interested in sports while china’s kids are burning their eyebrow.
#178
I totally agree.
Americans are more interested in hearing about the death of a cracked out pop star, then a scientific break through that will benefit our country or mankind.
Americans priorties so screwed up its no wonder our country is such a mess right now and going down the tube as we speak.
168 3b
“But the sense of entitlement that I see now does not seem to have been the case in past generations.”
Fair enough, but is that a problem amongst school-age kids or adults? The folks who are most responsible for our current dire economic straits are not those who are in high school. When did Bernie Madoff graduate from high school? Greenspan? Angelo Mozillo? Chuck Prince? All the folks who “moved up” from 2001 to 2006?
The greed was most certainly not a “kids today” problem.
Can someone explain what’s happening with FAS.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/detail/stock_quote?Symbol=US:FAS
Nom [82],
They all *suck. It’s all to feed the cronies, lackies and their buddies. The money was never meant to enhance private enterprise or job creation. They’re all a bunch of fat, f*cking phonies. No one has any backbone or b@lls.
“Where would we get our our stuff we get from Switzerland!?!”
Good excuse to travel to St. Kitts for watches.
It seems like a lot of time is spent alternately blaming entitled kids, entitled boomers, entitled poor people, entitled civil servants, and entitled financial employees. There is obviously something amiss across all the “entitled” peoples’ strata.
Maybe it’s not entitlement.
172 veto
I read constantly that this generation’s kids are lazy entitled fools. It seems to be the consensus on this blog, at least.
#180 Sir: I agree. However, these very same parents who felt that they were entitled to the best, and a lot of it, and all the time. Have instilled that same mindset (IMO) into their own children.
How else does one explain a young adult of 22 or 23 having never ever worked even a summer job?
“I read constantly that this generations kids are lazy entitled fools. It seems to be the consensus on this blog, at least.”
It may be because a fair number of the vocal people here raised themselves well above where they started largely because of hard work and not simply native ability.
186 3b
“How else does one explain a young adult of 22 or 23 having never ever worked even a summer job?”
Agreed in spades (and I say that as someone who worked in a factory from age 13, had three jobs in college, and borrowed every penny for my post-high school tuition).
187 shore
I agree with that, because I’m one of them, but I don’t limit my indictment to “kids today.”
Remember all of that hullabaloo in the Media only a year or so ago about how Gen Y was going to change the workplace.
There is no more talk in the MSM anymore of the Web 2.0 work/life balance crap anymore.
Make,
reverse stock split?
“There is no more talk in the MSM anymore of the Web 2.0 work/life balance crap anymore.”
Sure isn’t. But speaking of that, I miss those 1950s two-martini lunches and the 5pm cocktail hour after work.
Warren Buffett: “I have never seen it quite happen like this, but what happened was in late September, the American public … saw money market funds break the buck. They saw commercial papers stop, they saw all kinds of things that they hadn’t seen before,” he said. “It was a shock to the system.”
Dear Sellers, in two days you will have lost another $3000 for holding out for your dream price. Have a nice weekend and I’ll remind you next week about the additional $3000 you just lost.
The work life balance problem has been solved, the lazy are home for good and the workers are at work.
#65 – Agreed. Just saying the title “blue ribbon” is like saying “former miss america”. Over time, neither are as good as they used to be.
Americans are more interested in hearing about the death of a cracked out pop star, then a scientific break through that will benefit our country or mankind.
I’m trying to imagine a time when this was any different.
I’m trying to recall the Roman writer who bemoaned the popularity of comedies.
“I read constantly that this generation’s kids are lazy entitled fools. It seems to be the consensus on this blog, at least.”
Sir,
Pay no mind to the consensus here. Besides they are just projecting their own fears about their children not being able to fund their social security checks.
By the way, my two year old is brilliant, hard working too. Will probably send her dolls to moon using legos and pc by age 4. She stole her moms lipstick and was writing on the sliding glass door, then when she got caught, she yelled at her mom that she was doing homework. I mean, how do you argue with that without sending mixed signals?
196. Amen — As the Who said. The Kids are Alright.
schabadoo
great empires are cyclic. The roman author may have been correct as could be the american author
or not, i am just a janitor
gary says:
July 9, 2009 at 1:38 pm
“Dear Sellers, in two days you will have lost another $3000 for holding out for your dream price. Have a nice weekend and I’ll remind you next week about the additional $3000 you just lost.”
You should create an abusive Twitter feed for sellers.
John, if you really think most people grow up and marry other people in their neighborhood….consistent with your throwback mentality in just about every other comment you have made — I would laugh at that and say….maybe…for the first marriage.
Couple of daisy cutters on Zurich will get those bastards’ attention…
Time to add Switzerland to the axis of evil. They should dust off Dubya and let him make the announcement.
I’m appalled that these kids today won’t stay off ma’ lawn!
Most people are trying to move into the towns mentioned here, because they are boring WASPs with a fear of all people different than they are. They flock to ‘safe’ areas. LOL
great empires are cyclic. The roman author may have been correct as could be the american author
The only constant then is the complaining about youngsters.
195….unscientific study….most Americans are absolute morons. Present company excluded of course.
First Rule of Survival. Live where you can afford to live.
“I read constantly that this generation’s kids are lazy entitled fools. It seems to be the consensus on this blog, at least.”
I still consider myself a kid…and yes, this generation’s kids are beyond lazy. They’ve taken it to ridiculous levels.
“None of the technological aspects of the flight troubled Americans’ thinking about Sputnik’s meaning. It was the schools, stupid. Proof arrived with the issue of Life for 24 March 1958.
On the cover, the words “Crisis in Education” were emblazoned in red letters on a black background.
In 1958 Bronx HS of Science (Bronx), Stuyvesant HS (Manhattan) or Brooklyn Technical HS (Brooklyn) could have held up against any HS in the World. Not so today. But back in 1958, many graduated and went to schools like MIT.
I’m appalled that these kids today won’t stay off ma’ lawn!
LOL!!!
This story is repeated every generation. Nothing changes.
Sergey Brin and Larry Page. Lazy, spoilt Gen Xers!
schabadoo
Bingo! the only other guarantees in life are death and change
clot 201
maybe we could talk to the germans??? could be good for their economy!
Amen — As the Who said. The Kids are Alright.
Industrial revolution-
work in factories,get a pay check.No need to worry about retirement & medical insurance company will provide.High School education will help for advancement.
Globalization-
College education don’t guarantee any of the above but college debt.Kids will be alright.
maybe we could talk to the germans??? could be good for their economy
It could be awesome! You call Germany, I’ll call Japan and Great Britain and let `em know were getting the band back together.
“They should dust off Dubya and let him make the announcement.”
Boy has that douchebag been silent since leaving office. I suppose he needed more time on the ranch. His 364 days a year while in office were not enough.
197 veto
That’s a riot! Sounds very much like mine.
Tosh,
lets invite Putin & Medvedev too. We dont want them to feel left out, you know how the russians hold a grudge ;)
Tosh,
i think this performance has been rescheduled for southeast asia. I hate it when they up and change venues on you!
“were getting the band back together”
We’re on a mission from God.
Veto, Sir Rent
How about closing the cat in the shower stall and turning on the water….
mine is 2 as well. he said the Meow was dirty and needed a tubby. he was right, what could i say?
i would think it would be safe to say
we have a real dbag in the white house now.
giving the country away
[202] clot
“Couple of daisy cutters on Zurich will get those bastards’ attention”
We can send you. Don’t you have a grenade launcher somewhere?
To post #163
SirRentsalot says:
July 9, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Every generation thinks it’s kids are lazy fools:
It is a valid point also I personally think new generation kids, who are 0-6 years old now will be smartest ever.
With internet available and Cable and I-pods and stuff – kids nowdays have significantly easier access to UNLIMITED information.
Also Toddlers toys are freakishly advanced.
In additio Being from soviet union and growing up under soviet goverment I think the paper quoted in 163 is hilarious. Basically it picks ONE!!! nerdy scientist kid from soviet union and puts it against some partying jock…
Any comparisons made to soviet systems are simply silly as a lot of education in Soviet Union was just smoke and mirrors – how about teachers forced to give studebnt a C or even B grades to make sure that “govermental plan for educations” was fufilled.
We had plenty kids, who could hardly read, graduate high school.
“Boy has that douchebag been silent since leaving office”
Very little that he ever said while in office was worth hearing and the less he says in public for the next 40 years the better.
Confused
I think Stuyvesant and Bronx Science still send students to MIT and Harvard et al.
Another auction in North Bergen-Carlsons Court
Al
how about teachers forced to give student a C or even B grades to make sure that “govermental plan for educations” was fufilled.
That sounds familiar, wonder where the NJEA got the idea from
223 al
“In additio Being from soviet union and growing up under soviet goverment I think the paper quoted in 163 is hilarious. Basically it picks ONE!!! nerdy scientist kid from soviet union and puts it against some partying jock…”
That’s precisely why I quoted it. It stands for the proposition that every generation thinks it’s kids are lazy fools, and will cherry-pick to prove it so.
I am currently in a chat with Comcast Customer service to get my cable bill returned to the Direct TV comparable price. I have to do this every 6 months to save $50. Well worth the 5 minutes.
Sir Rent, Veto
why dont we just go to a NeoSpartan society, philosopher warriors? All citizens must be trained in philosophy, sciences, and combat.
All social promotion will be through something similar to “chess boxing”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing
the penalty for any politician/lawmaker caught breaking laws is immediate execution.
China’s New Lending Surges, Fueling Bad-Loan Concerns
By Bloomberg News
July 8 (Bloomberg) — China’s new lending more than doubled in June from a month earlier, increasing concerns bad loans and asset bubbles will emerge amid a credit boom.
New lending was 1.53 trillion yuan ($224 billion), the central bank said on its Web site today, bringing total lending this year to 7.4 trillion yuan. The calculation for new loans is preliminary, the central bank added.
The government is countering an export collapse by flooding the economy with money to fuel domestic demand. Rapid credit growth poses a risk to the nation’s lenders and a concentration of credit in some industries and businesses may damage the stability of the financial system, the banking regulator said yesterday.
“Excess liquidity is fueling speculation and that means asset bubbles and wasteful investment,” said Isaac Meng, a senior economist at BNP Paribas SA in Beijing. “Expect credit to slow dramatically in the second half.”
I saw ‘300’, kettle. Fun flick.
#184 silera: Maybe its just those of us who have been working ahrd for many years, went to school, played by the rules, did not moan and complain, and are just doing what needs to be done, are tired of all the bitching and moaning from what seems to be an unending groups of people complaining and blaming others for their situations.
There are those of us who quietly go about our business and our lives without looking for someone to blame. All we ask is that the goal posts not be moved, and formerly unacceptable behavior is now OK. A little self responsibility, self pride, and self dignity is what I think everyone should be capable of.
Some of us who come to this site do it just to let off a little steam, thats all.
And I stand behind my earlier comment that there is something wrong when we have 22 and 23 year old young adults who have never worked any type of job, and no I do not blame them, I blame the parents.
Yes every genration may get blamed as being lazy etc, the difference was in my parents generation, they would have kicked our butts off the couch and made us go out and get a job.
Chess boxing!? where in the hell do you find this stuff Ket?
how about cablevision vs. direct TV
Comcast is tougher this time, I’m now on the phone with them. We’ll see if I’m going to Direct TV or will I be able to get them to match prices again. Captain Cheapo is back in the saddle.
“Meow was dirty and needed a tubby.”
Assuming the water was not scalding hot, thats some pretty funny stuff.
It takes some some admirable initiative to spontaneously dunk the cat.
He must be a future leader of some sort.
“It is a valid point also I personally think new generation kids, who are 0-6 years old now will be smartest ever.
With internet available and Cable and I-pods and stuff – kids nowdays have significantly easier access to UNLIMITED information.”
Don’t make that mistake. In the mid 90s, they proclaimed the internet would make everyone smart. It didn’t happen. In fact, we’ve moved the opposite direction. Despite the increased access to information, the children of America have proven through every measure of performance that they are not getting any smarter.
Oh and just for the record. I am at the tail end of the baby boom generation, and I am embarrased by them.
A bunch of greddy self-centered, self loathing, wussy, drugged up crybabies, my concerne is what these clowns may have done to their own children. Rant off back to sleep.
I saw the original blues brothers at the Paladium, John Belushi was so high he was stumbling around finally he passed out flat on his back in the middle of the stage, Dan Anhoroid must have seen this before as he kept on going on for at least three songs walking around his passed out body, finally John B popped up and finished rest of concert, not long after that he OD’d what a suprise.
BTW is is not outdate that kids from rich neighborhoods that are dominated by a single race or religion marry similar folks from either that town or similar towns, the often move back there to raise their kids. My town I grew up in stinks and I was a different religion that 99% of town. However, the ones that fit in there usually went off to college and sowed their oats, spent around 10 years in city bumming around and then came home to roost. Great deal for them and the Grandparents. I would love it if one of my kids married someone from a nearby rich town. I hate traveling far for holidays.
Shore Guy says:
July 9, 2009 at 2:17 pm
“were getting the band back together”
We’re on a mission from God.
Comcast is tougher this time, I’m now on the phone with them.
Stu (35)-
That’s what I had to do this time around. However, the local guys did it in 5 minutes. I just told them I couldn’t afford the inflated bill. No mention of Direct TV etc. This cable monopoly sucks.
Veto,
cold water. i had to leave the room to laugh, before telling him that even if meow (his word for cat) is dirty that you dont lock him in the shower.
Is your marriage worth $25,000 per year???
Latest on the health care tax proposals . . .
“WASHINGTON—House Democrats working on President Barack Obama’s goal of health legislation are narrowing in on an income tax surcharge on the highest-paid wage earners to help subsidize insurance for the 50 million people who lack it.
Pushing to complete a comprehensive health care overhaul plan by Friday and bring it up for committee votes next week, House Democrats abandoned earlier money-raising proposals, including a payroll tax. They met behind closed doors Thursday to fine-tune the details.
“I promised the president that we would have legislation out of the House before we went on an August break. That is still my goal,” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Thursday.
As discussed in the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee, the surtax would apply to individuals with adjusted gross income of more than $200,000 and couples over $250,000, according to officials involved in the discussion. Most spoke on condition of anonymity because the talks were private.
Rep. Shelley Berkley, D-Nev., a member of the panel, said the panel is looking at a surtax of around 3.5 percent on income above those amounts. Other members suggested it would be closer to 3 percent.
In addition, key lawmakers are expected to call for a tax or fee equal to a percentage of a worker’s salary on employers who do not offer health benefits . . .”
Now, to my provocative headline about marriage:
Assuming a family has an AGI of 300,000, they will be tapped for an additional $9,000 to $12,000 per year in taxes in order to pay for universal health care. This in in ADDITION to the other tax increases that the administration has in store for the “rich.” So, in reality, that same family will see their taxes increase by roughly $20,000 per year.
Already, this family loses its personal exemptions, deductions for children, and has any below the line deductions completely phased out. They are also subject to AMT.
If the H&W divorce or legally separate, they can file as single taxpayers. Paradoxically, if they divorce, they can continue to live together (if they separate, they must actually have separate residences during the last 6 months of the year). Assuming that their filing status does not push them into a higher tax bracket, they would avoid the tax hikes, avoid the surtax, regain some of their deductions, and reduce their effective tax rate. For example, in 2009, the threshold for the 33% bracket is taxable income of 208K; single is 171K; and head of household is 190K. So if one spouse can get under 171K and the other under 190K (assuming there are kids), putting both in the 28% bracket, I estimate that the average family in this situation with 300K AGI and 250K taxable income would save in excess of $25,000 merely by getting a legal separation and filing separately. After 2010, the savings will be even greater.
At some level, probably nearer to 500K gross income, you cannot avoid any of these taxes unless you have the ability to defer income and that is not easy, even for self-employed folks. But for some dual income families where both earners make less than 200K, but jointly make over 300K, these numbers start to look awfully compelling.
That was why I said the divorce courts will see an uptick in 2010 with legal separation filings that are mutual, civil, and keep getting continued indefinitely. Because if you are legally separated, you keep all the benefits of marriage, but lose the marriage penalty in fed taxes.
Veto
apparently little kettle has taken the preemptive strike doctrine to heart.
how about cablevision vs. direct TV. Not available where I live. FIOS/Comcast/Direct TV/Dish are the only options available to me in Montclair. Would do FIOS, but we plan on moving in under 12 months so I don’t want to lock into a contract with them.
Well the phone guy is playing hardball and the best he would do was $25 more than Direct TV. I’ll probably just take it after I try once more since I don’t want the hassle of changing over to satellite.
Captain Cheapo loses this round!
I WILL BE BACK!!!
The problem is that I got a tough salesmen who knew the script by heart. I’ll call again later and will play the bad economy/can’t afford cable card that Victorian suggested.
Can’t you travel with Fios?
Can’t you travel with Fios?
I will look into it. Certainly, I’m a big fan of FIOS. VZ and JNJ are the only long positions I currently own :P
3b- We’re all allowed to vent. A lot of times venting by those earning less than X amount of dollars immediately gets read as complaining and whining. Until most of us realize that we’re much closer to the irresponsible, shameless poor as a nation than to the miniscule population of the truly rich, we won’t do anything about the true problems that we are facing.
The American work ethic or morality isn’t lost. The lack of a sustainable economy or a well thought out plan to address infrastructure, education and health care and our debt is the problem. We’ve spent shittons of money stupidly for over 20 yrs.
The “get a job” and “get out of your parent’s basement” may have been a valid insult/motivator when jobs were plentiful and everyone could borrow their way out of being poor but it’s not reality.
Imagine if all those poor people are also doing things right? Bootstraps mentality is basically a very strong wish that it never happens to you.
Stu –
If you get DirectTV/Dish, you would have to go to Verizon DSL as your Internet provider. The download speed sucks on DSL if you are into torrents etc. (I think it is 1Mbps/386Kbps)
cablevision ,, waste of so many channels that you have to pay for.
Victorian: I already use Verizon DSL. I negotiated an excellent price from them years ago.
$29 Verizon DSL.
$25 Vonage VOIP.
$55 Comcast Digital Cable with Showtime (which they just raised up to $90.25).
[204] essex
“Most people are trying to move into the towns mentioned here, because they are boring WASPs with a fear of all people different than they are.”
I wouldn’t call it fear so much as a healthy disrespect.
I used to live in center city Philadelphia. Had no problem with different folks around me. No fear whatsoever.
Of course, back in Philly I had my good friend Samuel Colt with me for some of those late-night walks and unexpected knocks on the door. More than one of those different folks decided that Mr. Colt wouldn’t take kindly to their plans.
Nom, or other finance guru’s what are the big picture implications for this?
SEC to call for Calif. IOUs treated as securities
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/SEC-to-call-for-Calif-IOUs-apf-3256311581.html;_ylt=AhPGgrhqWsbQvI4DOUPKHea7YWsA?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=4&asset=&ccode=
Nom due respect:
the surtax would apply to individuals with adjusted gross income of more than $200,000 and couples over $250,000
Rep. Shelley Berkley, D-Nev., a member of the panel, said the panel is looking at a surtax of around 3.5 percent on income above those amounts.
Assuming a family has an AGI of 300,000, they will be tapped for an additional $9,000 to $12,000 per year in taxes in order to pay for universal health care.
50,000X3.5%=$1750.00
If the H&W divorce or legally separate, they can file as single taxpayers.
single taxpayers go up in tax bracket more than married filling jointly
2008 tax schedule http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf
#248 silera: You have valid points. But up until very recently there were jobs available (and in some cases still are) for teens young adults, looking for summer work, or a few hours on the weekend, supermarkets, CVS, Blockbuster. Grant it low pay, but some of the so called wealthy parents, or wannabees would not want to have their kids seen by the neighbors working these jobs, as they might think oh the family must be having money troubles, can’t have people talking now can we.
In other cases I have heard kids say “I ain’t working for some stupid minimum wage job”.
My point is too many people today expect to have things handed to them on a silver platter,and we as a nation are in no position to do that. In fact I would argue we are in less of a position than 20 or 30 years ago.
How a young adult can sit home on a couch and do nothing,and than expect to some dream job will fall into his or her lap and then they will hit the ground running is in my mind naieve at best.
249 – you can keep comcast internet with directv. that’s what we have.
our comcast is missing several channels everyone else gets so we keep directv and threaten them with switching to comcast to keep the price down.
[255] yome
good catch on the Berkely provision; did not read it closely as I have a raging headache. However, other discussions don’t make that distinction, which is why I had a different range. Until we have actual legislation, I have to presume worst case scenario, and that the surtax will be on AGI, which was what had been reported as possible, and not AGI over a certain amount.
And you are correct that single taxpayers hit percentage thresholds sooner, a fact I also noted, but there is no parity with married taxpayers; the married taxpayers are not that far behind, hence the distortive effect. This is one element of the “marriage penalty” you have heard about.
Finally, your example differs from mine by 7-10K in the end. Still, the taxpayers in my example will still get hit by nearly 15K in 2009 and 2010, and upwards of 20K thereafter. So the question then becomes, is that status worth $1500 per month?
were #1 again !…..N.J. LEADS NATION IN NEW UNEMPLOYMENT CLAIMS
http://www.inthelobby.net/
Looks like FIOS moves with you and there is no early termination fee even if the new address is not FIOS compatible. FIOS here we come.
Now to sell my TIVO series 1 DVR (upgraded to Ethernet with a 300 hour hard drive and lifetime service contract).
Stu-
Keep up the good work. I have been doing this for years and only now that we are in a recession everyone is doing it too and it is killing my bottom line! I kept my Cablevision price at the intro level for 3 years until this past month when they must have retrained the phone reps to be harder on cheapos like me. I could not for the life of me get the guy to budge enough for me to stay. So I moved to FIOS for even less than I was paying CV! I am no fan of Verizon but the service is exceptional for both the internet and television. I get way more HD channels than CV and my internet is rock solid (unlike CV where it was not nearly as steady). Everyone makes fun of me at work but I have gotten everyone that I know deals on their internet/phone packages. The fact that FIOS has moved into CV’s territory is gold. At worst I can switch every year and get the intro price. Port the phone number over each time and the transition is seamless.
I don’t expect to pay over $100 for all three services ever again. I currently pay $85.
Good luck.
Nom:
From your example even without the healthcare legistlation it is better to divorce and file single and head of household on that income.average is (33%+28%)/2=30.5%
RE: “I posted an article 2 weeks ago about how much drive this chinese parents and kids have. Not letting their kids do anything but study to pass an SAT equivalent.”
Virgina Tech massacre?
Re 252 – Hey I am all for diversity, kids can marry who they want and I will be nice as can be to the new spouse. However, don’t go knocking on my door to pay for wedding, help with downpayment on house or childcare. Also don’t expect me to be driving or flying long distances on thanksgiving to eat some kooky ethnic food on Thanksgiving.
I firmally believe people should do what they want, heck dig up Michael Jackson and marry him if you want. Just don’t try to get me to agree with you that your decision was smart.
Depression 2.0 on the way. Get your grenade launchers ready. The degenerates are on the march led by O himself.
“First, the U.S. dollar, linchpin of all American (and most global) transactions, is appearing increasingly weak. 10-year Treasury yields, as low as 2.1 percent post-crash, and continuing to stay below 4 percent, indicate a persistent bubble in “safe” U.S. bonds and cash.
Certainly, the fiscal situation of the United States government doesn’t warrant the confidence placed in its debt. The U.S. will soon have to choose between outright default and hyperinflation. The BRIC countries are already preparing themselves for the latter eventuality by seeking alternatives to the dollar.
Second, there has been a realization that the low multiples of March 2009 were largely illusory. With corporate earnings falling faster than share prices, price-earnings ratios are still high and historically expensive for an economy in an official recession.
Third, employment figures have been so bleak that the financial spin-doctors have been suggesting a “jobless recovery”! Reading between the lines, that means even the most deluded forecasters cannot find an argument for hiring to resume.
Despite the enormous stimulus packages, there are now roughly 15 million Americans unemployed, the highest total for some 26 years. Worse still, the official figures do not include the long-term unemployed or those who have been forced to accept part-time employment. If these “unofficial” unemployed figures were included, the total would be nearer to 20 percent than the official 9.6 percent. Furthermore, annualized figures show Americans earning less for each hour worked.
There can be little wonder that consumers are hoarding cash, increasing their savings and not buying on Main Street. American consumers are in a state of financial shock. The U.S. economy is heading deeper into severe recession, even depression.
The facts are universally bearish for the American stock markets. As for the pundits’ sentiments, you can measure their value by how much you personally pay for CNBC (very little) versus your cost if they’re wrong (very much). Now, there’s a statistic!”
The chinese SAT is hard, for instance this questions, Cat is to Chicken as Pigeon is to blank.
Qwerty says:
July 9, 2009 at 3:45 pm
RE: “I posted an article 2 weeks ago about how much drive this chinese parents and kids have. Not letting their kids do anything but study to pass an SAT equivalent.”
Virgina Tech massacre?
sure lets pick one instance to define the entire population.
Wow. The FIOS plan is really cheap. I will most likely lock in the 2-year deal and I get a free mini notebook. Cool beans.
$134 for triple play + showtime + one Verizon cell phone all on one bill.
Yesterday afternoon if you saw the new Denzel-Travolta flick you could have experienced this…….
Pelham 1-2-3
at 4:56PM
on 7/8/09
whadda ya’ think?
No no no….ya’all wanted Obama and universal healthcare (me too, I voted too)…now all you rich folks you can’t all weasel out of paying for it, can you????!!!!
John says:
July 9, 2009 at 3:52 pm
The chinese SAT is hard, for instance this questions, Cat is to Chicken as Pigeon is to blank.
PHISH?
I am oeM-ay.
He is arryL-ay
What are you?
Curley-cue?
SMACK
Stu
Don’t forget ~$15-$20 in taxes on top of that. Cable does not have nearly as much taxes as Verizon (due to nature of phone product)
Stu, #267,
do you have a link to that deal?
I get Optimum Triple Play plus DVR all-in with extra charges and taxes for $106.
Yay I am getting FIOS. I get all my news from the NJREREPORT.
Stu – —> http://www.defefx.com/fios-deals/
Chifi – Montclair is Comcast land. Comcast s*cks. And their internet is completely unreliable. So unreliable that we have stuck with DSL for years.
just got off the phone with cablevision
told me,, nothing off , no discounts,
your screwed , including taxes
214.Stu says:
July 9, 2009 at 2:10 pm
“They should dust off Dubya and let him make the announcement.”
Boy has that douchebag been silent since leaving office. I suppose he needed more time on the ranch. His 364 days a year while in office were not enough.
Stu,
That’s what educated people call class and grace. It’s recognized by a willingness to vacate the spotlight without leaving claw-marks of one’s fingernails on the stage.
Before president “Bubba”, ex-presidents were deafeningly silent on matters of national concern, out of deference to their successors. Like used house sales hacks that consider current (ordianry, by historical measures) sales volumes to be ‘depressed’, you mistake transition from an aberration and return to the norm as an anomoaly.
talk about el cheapo: i get mine from cablevision for $10.99 basic cable which i can get from antenna for free but too lazy,with 50 channels
Tell me why do I need TV again?
Pat (281)-
To render your brain a receptacle of goo.
It’s one more thing I have to wipe to clean my husband’s newsprint pawprints.
Other than that, all I ever seem to listen to is the weather channel with the muzak.
Oh, and every other day I hear the Jonas Brothers singing the Pizza Girl song. That one I will have to put the kabosh on before I put on 20 pounds.
Hoboken condo market was on fire in June.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tgl0VPjoo8_DsuBUf2bYuhw&single=true&gid=36&range=a1:k39&output=html
Will this Hoboken link work??
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tgl0VPjoo8_DsuBUf2bYuhw&single=true&gid=24&range=a1:g19&output=html
1987,
Who wanted B.O.? Not I, for sure. Every time he opened his mouth it was a threat to my economic security. The guy sounded like he was going to be an unmitigated disaster and it looks like he will be after all.
The only problem i have with condo:
Everybody heard of lifespan?What happens after the lifespan of the building?
Oh, a hint from the highway. Folks, you are NOT invisible in the car. PLEASE — keep your fingers and nose well seperated while driving, stopped, and parked.
A question, speaking of the open road. Has anyone else noticed an uptick in the number of topless women driving around lately?
Holla out to my fellow cheapo’s…
I live in NYC, so I get free internet through using someone’s unprotected wifi. I get free basic cable since it is wired through my building and with my TV tuner I can pick up the free HD network and cable channels. In all I got about 80 channels w/ 25 being HD. I currently have a landline, but will be chopping again very soon. For phone I will than have my cell and I got two plans for $30/month each which includes 500 minutes, unlimited text and data through Sprint SERO package. Only thing I miss is ESPN, but I’m not paying for cable to just get that channel. I’m ok to just check out my sport scores online.
Gotta save up for my downpayment on that soon to be 50% off peak price home in a blue ribbon town. If NYC drops that much or more, maybe a nice 2 or 3 BR condo by a park or river.
Pat says:
July 9, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Tell me why do I need TV again?
Sports….otherwise useless…
[270] 1987 condo
Call it what you want, but I intend to “weasel” out of as much of this taxpropriation as I can without breaking the law, and will willingly sell my services to anyone who wants to do the same.
Read Gregory v. Helvering sometime; it stands for the proposition that a person is entitled to structure their affairs (legally) in such a way as to avoid taxes. This is under assault, and the Feds are looking to be able to void this doctrine and impute income (and taxes) where none exists, simply because you could have earned it. To me, that is a scary proposition. It goes beyond merely closing loopholes, and instead looks for blanket authority to arbitrarily decide that you aren’t entitled to that tax deduction because you never needed to undertake the deductible activity in the first place.
Anyone who thinks we have rule of law at the federal level never brought suit against the government. I have seen it close up while clerking at the U.S. Court of Federal Claims in Washington. DoJ plays as dirty as any ambulance chaser.
Another bagholding f*cking mor0n attempting to unload after realizing that they’ve been swindled, hoodwinked, duped and taken. Oh well. This has been on and off the market for over 700 days, price went from $829,000 to $625,000. The pool is being back-filled (don’t know why). It’s right around the corner from Tony Soprano’s house. It can also be rented (BWAHAHAAA!!!). They must realize they’re dropping $3,000 per week. Not!
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/North-Caldwell-Boro_NJ_07006_1109951145
[262] yo’me
“From your example even without the healthcare legistlation it is better to divorce and file single and head of household on that income.average is (33%+28%)/2=30.5%”
True, but are there not a host of non-tax reasons to stay married, even if it costs you some money? My point is that we are approaching a tipping point for many people who may run the numbers, learn that they can save 30K by being “separated,” and say “what the heck.”
Caution though, that these people may simply go to the courthouse, file papers and not actually separate, meaning that they are engaging in tax fraud and abuse of civil process. Nearly impossible to catch and prosecute, but a violation nonetheless. (as I said before, the divorced couple CAN continue to live together. There is a private letter ruling confirming this. Go figure).
Great way to get a penalty-less 401(k) w/d as well.
Ya gotta really trust the partner, though.
We get free WIFI on our front porch/stoop. It used to work all through the house. Hmmm….
I wonder what the server guy thinks of my activity, so I’m afraid to use it.
I could swear he was staring at me in church. Plus he knows the guy who plows snow for the county. And THAT guy was staring at me over his sunglasses last night at the swim meet.
His eyebrows were down.
Everybody knows everybody here.
They’re going to kick me off the PTA. I can feel it.
That’s what educated people call class and grace. It’s recognized by a willingness to vacate the spotlight without leaving claw-marks of one’s fingernails on the stage.
Odd that you chose Bubba as your example. Cheney and his weekly press conferences seem much more appropriate.
Who was looking for Wall Street, the sequel?
“Filmmaker Michael Moore is calling his newest documentary, “Capitalism: A Love Story,” but if it’s a romance, it obviously doesn’t end well.
“It will be the perfect date movie,” the liberal lightning rod told Variety on Wednesday. “It’s got it all – lust, passion, romance and 14,000 jobs being eliminated everyday.”
With the country mired in a recession, Moore tackles what he sees as the origins of the United States’ economic woes, Americans’ blinding love of the free market.
“It’s a forbidden love,” he said. . . . ”
Wonder how he feels about things like depreciation deductions???
I’ve just discovered the y o u t u b e
movies links.
Those short flicks are scary. I can’t stop thinking about the spider one with the chick getting run over. I’m the person who plants the spiders.
What channel would that be on, if it were run on TV?
[297] schab
The genie came out of the bottle when Clinton broke the unwritten rule. It’s an arms race, and the atmosphere and party rancor won’t improve. Ever. Not without a cataclysmic event that binds the country and gives them a new external enemy, or a sudden surge of wealth creation that expands the pie.
At this rate, we can expect to see fistfights on the floor of the house within two years, and political violence in the same period. I said before that we are headed for more Greensboros and I haven’t seen anything yet that changes my mind.
[297] redux
Besides, by implication, he did not impute class and grace to Cheney.
All you cheapos inspired me to call Comcast to get them to credit me back the activation fee of $29.95 for the phone. They did it! Thanks.
“They’re going to kick me off the PTA. I can feel it.”
They’re all out to get you Pat, one of the PTA Hens felt you snubbed her at the Bake Sale ;)
The iphones on cl are tempting me. Stu, deal or spiel?
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/nva/mob/1261102819.html
I’m thinking of offering this guy 299.
Silera, when first asked to bake for a sale, I made the most gd-aweful disgusting muffins. My baking soda was like three years old…the stuff you keep in the fridge. The flour was from 2004.
Never had to deal with THAT again.
#284 frank:Ah Jeez, can you give it a rest!!
GM prepares to exit bankruptcy on Friday
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE5686H620090709
#75 NYNJ –
I am in somewhat of the same situation as you here in PA. I would also like some tactical suggestions. Without getting too specific, I have been in my present 1 bedroom apt. for 3.5 years. During that time, I have seen my rent increase 15%. My income has stayed flat. All they have done to improve the place was repave the parking lot. My rent is slated to increase another 5% in September. I have attempted to nicely negotiate last year but LL wouldn’t budge. LL bought this place in ’80 and it should be paid for several times over. I am perfect tenant, always pay on time and cause no problems. People are moving out and apts sit vacant for months. Unfortunately, the LL seems to have comps on his side. Anything I find that is significantly cheaper is either an efficiency (I cannot live in less than 500 sf) or is on the “wrong side of the tracks.” I am also on a month-to-month lease, which I am willing to pay a small premium for the convenience of being able to move on a 30-day notice. However, it does not seem worth moving unless I’m saving at least $75/month on base rent (not worth the hassle and utility set-up fees.) Anybody have any suggestions for a STUBBORN LL?
“and instead looks for blanket authority to arbitrarily decide that you arent entitled to that tax deduction because you never needed to undertake the deductible activity in the first place”
As a self-employed person, this deeply concerns me as it gets government substituting its judgement for business owners.
It is a short path from deciding that a business “really didn’t need” to buy a certain piece of equipment to “flying business class on that trip was unnecessary” or “you really did not need to entertain THAT client at that time or for THAT purpose.”
With the profound mismanagement of our various government entities, they have no fricken business telling me how to manage mine.
A question, has anyone else noticed an uptick in the number of t0pless women driving around lately?
“Anybody have any suggestions for a STUBBORN LL?”
Clot, Nom, and Grim paying him a visit at 3 a.m.?
Or Stu with his hockey stick.
Worked at UBS in London and Switzerland for five years. No way are those names leaving Switzerland. It is impossible to overstate Swiss secrecy and how deeply it is embedded. I have some crazy client stories and I was only allowed on the periphery of the truly Swiss stuff. Even acknowledging that someone is a client of a Swiss bank (in Switzerland) is punished with jail time. That’s a Swiss federal law, secrecy starts at the top and permeates down. Bankers there are like the Secret Service – trained to take one for the client. If the Swiss concede the names to the US a substantial portion of the Swiss GDP is disappears since why wouldn’t the French, Brits, Russians, etc. all pull the same? While there are differences (universal taxation by the US – like some banana republic – and not by other first world countries) the capital flight would be immense. Let’s face it, money doesn’t reside there for superior returns.
Those around long enough will remember the Drexel insider trading cases of the late 80s. Some participants used Swiss accounts in the Carribean. It took significant contortions by the Swiss to work around their laws to hand over that info. If I recall correctly the logic was some combination of the non-Swiss domicile and that brokerage accounts were not ‘accounts’ as defined by Swiss law.
No such luck here. Short UBS, they will take it up the pooper and fork over major $ to the US to avoid revealing if the court rules names must be revealed.
#309 shorehas anyone else noticed an uptick in the number of t0pless women driving around lately?
Hey its tough put there, whatever it takes.
“Theyre going to kick me off the PTA. I can feel it”
Is that supposed to be a negative?
I mean tough out there.
Re. UBS:
They come out so much further ahead by taking a stand even if it means getting closed down in the US. If they cave, who outside the US who wants/needs privacy will use them.
Longtime toll takers on the Parkway can tell some stories. I suppose it somewhat makes up for them working in a CO-infused box.
Nom,
Mrs. Shore and I were talking this morning about the need to find ways to get our reported AGI below the confiscatory trigger levels.
I love this, we get to pay$16,000 a year for our health insurance and then, in the interest of fairness, we will pay extra to pay for someone else’s.
The return of pinko liberalism, it seems.
in mod
in mod
or not, just a posting lag
deration.
July 9, 2009 at 8:29 pm
Nom,
Mrs. Shore and I were talking this morning about the need to find ways to get our reported AGI below the confiscat0ry trigger levels.
I love this, we get to pay$16,000 a year for our health insurance and then, in the interest of fairness, we will pay extra to pay for someone elses.
The return of pink0 liber@lism, it seems
Similar problems to NJ (housing still unaffordable):
NIONSOMORIDOU, Guinea — This West African village doesn’t have running water or electric lights. Most people get here by walking barefoot along a dirt path. The remote mountain community has one up-to-the-minute feature, though: a housing bust.
Rents had risen in recent years, and local residents and home builders let their enthusiasm get the better of them, turning out a spate of new construction. Now, rows of newly built houses stand empty in the village, and rents have been cut in half. So far, not so different from Miami or Phoenix. Except that these homes are one-room, windowless mud-brick huts, and the rent is about $6.50 a month.
A remote rural village in the mountains of Guinea doesn’t have running water or electric lights, but it has one up-to-date feature: a housing bust. Robert Guy Matthews reports.
For centuries, Nionsomoridou faced no risk of a housing-market crash, because it didn’t have a housing market. There were no unused houses. If a son married and needed room for children, his relatives put up a new hut next door, on village land that is communally owned.
Then came the global commodities boom, with far-reaching effects on Nionsomoridou, situated deep amid lushly forested mountains rich in gold, diamonds and one of the world’s largest virgin iron-ore seams.
Mining giant Rio Tinto announced three years ago that it had won permission to develop an iron-ore mine here and would need thousands of workers, far exceeding the labor force of this and other tiny communities hereabouts. Workers and their families began to stream in from elsewhere in Guinea and West Africa, all needing a place to stay.
Some villagers, spotting opportunity, moved in with relatives and offered their own huts to the newcomers, giving the hamlet its first rudimentary rental market. It began as barter, with the tenants paying in food or by having family members help out in the bean and rice fields. Soon, mine workers began paying cash rents, and these marched quickly upward. Some villagers took the budding housing boom into its next phase: They used their hut rent to build more huts — to rent out to what they assumed would be more people in need of huts.
What the tenants got was a single small room with a thatched roof that peaks in a cone shape 20 feet off the ground. Doors are sometimes just a hanging length of cloth. Floors are packed earth. The houses have no bathrooms or other plumbing, and no heat — one thing the local climate provides in abundance.
Huts such as these were hit by a glut in Nionsomoridou, Guinea, after residents added accommodations for mine workers who have since left.
As demand and rents rose, reaching the Guinea-franc equivalent of $20 a month, three or four mine workers often would move into a single hut to share the rent.
Villagers playing the hut-rental game sometimes amassed enough money to build themselves bigger homes, with three rooms instead of one and with a roof of tin instead of thatch. Seen from the air, these tin roofs twinkle like flashing lights in the searing midday heat. “That is the sign of wealth around here,” said a Rio Tinto helicopter pilot flying 3,000 feet above the settlements.
But in late 2008 the commodity boom stalled, sending prices for metals down steeply and prompting mining companies to shelve expansion plans, cut their production and lay off workers. Rio Tinto, for instance, shut down two-thirds of the drilling rigs that bore into the mountain to get at ore.
Rio Tinto reduced output at its existing exploration operations in the vicinity and stopped work at the mining operations it was developing not far from Nionsomoridou, partly because of a dispute with the government over exploration rights. The company idled most of its contractors, costing about 600 people their jobs, although for many of the miners whom Rio Tinto had employed directly, the company says it is providing work digging wells and building other infrastructure in the villages.
Salif Camara, a 24-year-old who speaks a language called Malinke, lost his job on a team manning the drills. His pay had been about a million Guinea francs a month, or about $200, a fantastic wage for this area that enabled him to help out his parents and begin buying tin and other materials for a home. He made plans to build a house of three rooms for his wife and 10 to 15 members of his extended family.
Now, toiling as a field hand instead of a miner, Mr. Camara earns no more than a tenth of his old pay, not enough to accumulate more building materials. There are no local banks or credit unions to help him. He lives in a crowded hut with his wife and other family members.
Mr. Camara has tucked under his cot the 15 or so tin sheets he had acquired, and he has hidden his mud bricks under piles of sticks along a path near the hut. “I have protected it well,” he said of the cache as he walked by, explaining that sharing is expected here. If others knew he had unused building materials and someone needed them, he would have to turn them over.
Without the mines, many families spend their time working in the fields and selling produce such as cucumbers, rice and peanuts at the market square. Others at the square sell surplus clothing. On a recent day, one man wore a T-shirt reading, “Don’t Blame Me, I Voted for McCain/Palin.”
Oumarou Kamara, 20, was earning about $100 a month working for a mining contractor. “I was feeding my family, feeding my mother and feeding kids,” he said. Ever since he lost that job at the start of the year, “we eat just once a day,” he said, often cassava porridge with an okra sauce called tipa.
Abourahne Drawara has a slightly different problem. He is a builder. He has little hope of recovering the $300 worth of materials and labor he has invested in each hut he built. Rents, he says, “are still falling.”
And yet, along a dusty trail here sit piles of sand and gravel, about 140 truckloads in all. They are part of a housing project planned last year by a developer from Guinea’s capital city of Conakry and a local builder named Lounceny Bamba. Despite the communal ownership of village land, Mr. Bamba says elders sold some for the project, for about 12 million francs, or $2,500.
Planning began when the mining boom was still going strong. What about today? “We are moving ahead very slowly,” Mr. Bamba said.
The mining slump helps in one way. “With so many people out of work here, it will not be hard to find labor,” he said.
The first two of the project’s tin-roofed huts are almost finished. The plan calls for 50, with completion in 2010. Mr. Bamba and the developer in the capital city are betting that the mining companies will resume their plans to expand operations here, and that once again, workers will pour in and need places to stay. The housing boom may have gone bust in Nionsomoridou, but Mr. Bamba plans to be ready for the next one.
Write to Robert Guy Matthews at robertguy.matthews@wsj.com
please unmod.
Granted, this is not in the ideal location but, it certainly stacks up against many other places for an occasional-use place and has certain advantages with respect to weather.
http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/141-Bo-Fortuna-Calle-Calle-8-Unit-Bo-Fortuna_Luquillo_PR_00773_1109490989
Clot, one of my favorite all-time quotes (care to guess who said it?)
… you can use this when the masses start to gather to overthrow the government
“I don’t believe in anything. I’m just here for the violence.”
329-Shore Guy
Notice all the bars on the doors and windows- they’re not for decoration.
It sounds like Jack Nicholson (at a Manasquan HS reunion, no doubt)
NJC,
Such a cynic. Were you born in NJ perhaps :)
Yea, like I said, not ideal butat least one would be caged in, in a sunny spot. Unlike, say Asbury, where one would still be caged in but not so sunny.
NJC,
Have you been in Hot Sand yet? It is an interesting shop. think I may try a hand at glassblowing one of these days.
Just got back from the Langousta Lounge down the block from Hot Sand. Another A+ meal and the place was packed.
I don’t know how the Hot Sand guy makes it through the winter but he seems to be quite popular this summer. I have browsed around the shop- it is cool.
Indeed, it is a gtreat place. I have always been fascinaterd by glass. I have not yet been to Langousta but from your mentions, Mrs. Shore and I will need to go. It sounds like a nice alternative to Moonstruck.
I have been a longtime fan of Tim McLoon’s place in Sea Bright. Have you eaten at his place in the old HJ?
Maybe we can do a NJRER trip to hot sand where we can all blow our own RE bubbles, ones that do not deflate, but can crash (well smash, anyway).
Cindy,
More good news for you folks.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_12800129?source=most_emailed
The genie came out of the bottle when Clinton broke the unwritten rule.
40 years in politics and Clinton forces him to drop his ‘class and grace’.
Carter was speaking out long before Clinton left office,
whats the word in hear tonight?
I hear heroin markets are taken a beating, its those damn middle easterners with their poppy.
another interesting thing people smuggle in the middle east, you would never think of that can sometimes do well:
tires & timber.
SAS
but to my knowledge, middle east poppy hits their & euro. not really US.
but the guys who really know their stuff are the blokes out in Uzbekistan
(their is a reason you hardly hear that word)
SAS
Shore Guy-
Saw Kenny Rankin at Asbury’s McLoone’s Supper Club this winter. Food was-eh- but Kenny was great. His version of Blackbird was better than the Beatles. There were about 30 people in the place- he sat around and chatted with us after the show.
I was so shocked when I heard he died from lung cancer a few of months later.
interesting article off the wire at alternet:
“Why Silk Soy Milk’s Parent Company Is Throwing American Farmers and Consumers Under the Bus”
http://tinyurl.com/mqxua9
SAs
“AIG Seeks Clearance For More Bonuses
$2.4 Million in Executive Payments Due Next Week”
http://tinyurl.com/l2h898
chicagofinance says:
July 8, 2009 at 5:40 pm
To be clear:
Depeche Mode = cool
Erasure = gay
erasure may be gay, but this song rocks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gy8g99omYw
Heh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BynUZOJc8QI
check this! scroll to 9:20
Correction – 7:40.
Hey cheapos, how are you going about the negotiation process for cablevision? I’ve never and continue to not have a problem always getting free months, the promo rates, and pretty much anything else I want from them. Verizon wireless works the same way.
Just call and go straight to the cancel service option and tell them that you’d like to cancel your service. They’ll ask you why you want to cancel and you can go a few different angles. I find that the best method is to tell them that with the recent rate increase, you’ll no longer be able to afford the service and if it comes down to being able to keep the lights on or keep the TV on, I have to choose the lights.
They’ve got all the power and they’ll offer you everything to keep your service. They get the gold stars on their nametag if they keep people. The assbag sales guys get the gold stars if they can upsell you as much as possible.
Granted, once in a while you’ll get the hardass that doesn’t want to budge, so you just wait a day and call back.
wow-
Is this graph really looking like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cshpi-peak.svg
found this on wikipedia
sl
288 frank
Hey fcuk, why are you posting links that stand for the proposition that prices in Hoboken are falling??
FRANK IS A BEAR!!!!!!!!
FRANK IS A CLOSETED BEAR!!!!!
(Not that there’s anything wrong with that).
all you lazy b@stards asleep?
KIDS TODAY!! LAZY; THE WHOLE LOT OF YOU!!!
I’m looking at you, John. Do some work before you get fired.
Not even SAS is up? Who the hell is manning the parapets??? I want him on that wall!!!
I NEED him on that wall!!!
NJC,
The sad thing is that all sorts of people from the Shore music scene of the 70s will start to die before long. Back when we were kids sneaking off beneath a lifeguard boat for a little, um, privacy, who would have ever thought of people dying off (well other than the occasional OD or car crash)?
NJC,
I had not heard of KR’s death and just looked it up. I see that he died three weeks after being diagnosed. Egads. I wonder if the lung cancer came about from club smoke?
300.schabadoo says:
Odd that you chose Bubba as your example. Cheney and his weekly press conferences seem much more appropriate
Only to those with the long-term memory of a gnat. Is it any wonder that housing sheeple make such poor long term forward looking decisions when “long term” is measured in minutes?
@300;
Oh, and another thing for the reality-challenged Democratic Undergrounders and Koz-acks: No matter how often and how loudly you (STILL!) scream to the contrary, Dick Cheney was vice-president, not the president.
Only to those with the long-term memory of a gnat.
Something in the news weekly wouldn’t be more relevant?
Grind that axe!
Dick Cheney was vice-president, not the president
You seem to be confused; I never said he was.