Weekend Open Discussion – Part II

Posted on January 12, 2008 by grim

Now Open, Part II!

Prior weekend thread closed due to comment overflow.

This entry was posted in General. Bookmark the permalink.

329 Responses to Weekend Open Discussion – Part II

grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:03 am

From Bloomberg:

Shiller Says Bank of America May `Have Some Problems’

Robert Shiller, Yale professor of economics and co-creator of the S&P/Case-Shiller Home Price indexes, said the falling U.S. housing market may cut the value of Countrywide Financial Corp., the mortgage lender being acquired by Bank of America Corp.

“There’s a tendency for people to underappreciate the risk of the housing market,” Shiller said. “I might have a lower valuation of Countrywide than Bank of America does.”
…
“Maybe Countrywide and Bank of America are going to have some problems going forward,” he said. “When people see that their houses are worth a lot less than their mortgage balance, they have an incentive to default. The troubled mortgages that Countrywide already has will be followed by even more troubled ones.”
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:06 am

From the Pittsburgh Post Gazette:

How to protect against builder’s bankruptcy

When a homebuilder goes bankrupt, the company’s creditors aren’t the only ones who suffer. Often, so do those who have paid sometimes hefty deposits for houses that remain unbuilt and new homeowners living in a development with half-built homes and incomplete amenities.

In the past year, the tumbling housing market has claimed such large builders as Fort Lauderdale, Fla.-based Levitt & Sons, a unit of Levitt Corp.; Elliott Building Group in Pennsylvania; Turner-Dunn Homes Inc. in Arizona; Kara Homes Inc. in New Jersey; and Neumann Homes Inc. in Illinois.

When these builders file for bankruptcy, subcontractors stop working, unfinished homes in various stages dot the communities, crippling liens are placed on occupied homes, clubhouses are incomplete, and swimming pools and parks are never built.

People who have placed deposits on homes either never get their money back or face delays of months or years before it is returned.

“The houses sit until someone comes in and decides to complete them,” says Tracy Cross, of Tracy Cross & Associates, a Schaumburg, Ill.-based real estate research firm. The buyers “can’t move in, they can’t get their deposit back, and they can’t get out of the contract.”

In November, Levitt and Sons became the nation’s largest builder to file for bankruptcy. In its bankruptcy filing, the company lists assets of less than $1 million and debts of more than $100 million.

Some home builders such as Centex Corp. and Pulte Homes Inc. aim to survive by selling houses at bargain prices, scrapping growth plans and slashing jobs. But as the housing market continues its downward slide, other home builders could find their companies in jeopardy.
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:08 am

From the AP:

Army reaffirms closure of Fort Monmouth, move to Aberdeen

Army brass have reassured Maryland’s congressional delegation that Fort Monmouth in New Jersey is still closing — and many of its operations are still moving to Aberdeen Proving Ground in Harford County.

New Jersey’s congressional delegation and other leaders in the state have been trying to dissuade the Army from closing Fort Monmouth.

But Army officials told the Maryland delegation Friday that the closure is going forward as planned. The Army has developed a precise timeline for moving assets into Maryland and a detailed funding plan to support those moves.
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:11 am

From Reuters:

New York probes Wall St. banks over suprime data: report

New York prosecutors are investigating whether Wall Street banks withheld information about the risks stemming from subprime loan-linked investments, The New York Times reported on Saturday.

Citing people with knowledge of the matter, the newspaper said the inquiry, begun last summer by state Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, was focusing on how banks bundled billions of dollars of exception loans and other subprime debt into complex mortgage investments.

Charges could be filed as soon as the coming weeks, the Times said. Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal told the newspaper he was also conducting a review and cooperating with New York officials.
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:13 am

From the New York Times:

Cleveland Sues 21 Lenders Over Subprime Mortgages

Cleveland is suing 21 of the nation’s largest banks and financial institutions, accusing them of knowingly plunging the city into a financial crisis by flooding the local housing market with subprime mortgage loans to people who could never repay.

The city is seeking “at least” hundreds of millions of dollars in damages, Cleveland’s law director, Robert J. Triozzi, said Friday. The list of defendants includes some of the most prominent firms on Wall Street, like Citigroup, Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Merrill Lynch and Countrywide Financial.

Mayor Frank G. Jackson said in an interview on Friday that the companies would be “held accountable for what they’ve done.”

“We’re going after them to get the resources we need to rebuild our city,” Mr. Jackson said.
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:16 am

Different kind of comp killer, from the Greenwich Time:

Troubled condos sold by Antares

Four months after acknowledging financial problems with its planned condominium conversion of Putnam Green and Weaver’s Hill, a Greenwich developer has sold the Byram and Glenville apartment complexes for about $204 million, according to the town clerk’s office.

Antares Real Estate paid $223 million for the two western Greenwich apartment complexes two years ago, intending to renovate the 1960s- and ’70s-era rental units into luxury condominiums that were to be sold. But those condominium conversion plans fizzled, putting Antares under the threat of foreclosure from lender Lehman Brothers.
(emphasis added)
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:18 am

From the Seattle Times:

Our home values are affecting our psyche, too

If you’re addicted to HGTV, spend your days checking zillow.com, are obsessed with the value of your home and dream of the ways you would remodel (if you had unlimited funds), then you’re experiencing the state of mind that Daniel McGinn has aptly named his new book after — “House Lust.”

His book explores America’s newest obsession — our homes — and covers the good and bad ways this lust manifested itself during the housing boom of the early 2000s.

To understand this overweening desire for residential improvement, McGinn takes a humorous journey across the country, where he dabbles in real-estate investment, gets a behind-the-scenes look at the HGTV craze, tries to fathom the ins and outs of vacation-home buying and finds out why so many people turned real estate into a career during the boom.
…
He’s quick to say that though there’s no single explanation for our house lust, there are five primary drivers:

• The High Five Effect (our houses are making us rich).

• Our House Is Our Retirement Plan (our homes provide for our economic future).

• We Used to Play the Market. Now We Play Our Houses (refinancing our homes funds renovations and vacations) .

• It’s So Easy to Peek in the Window (HGTV and Web sites like zillow.com make it possible).

• You Are Where You Live. (When making status judgments, people substitute addresses for occupation or profession.)
lostinny says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:20 am

I just don’t get the idea of expecting to make money back at a wedding. At the time we got married, many of our friends didn’t have a pot to piss in. Does that mean we shouldn’t have invited them because they couldn’t “cover their plates”? Of course not. They were invited because we wanted people we love to celebrate with us. And that’s all we expected. But then, I’m in public service so I must be an idiot to start with.
As a side note, our wedding plans started with the idea of a destination wedding then moved to a big wedding at home. The big wedding stressed me out so because I didn’t have any help planning that I cried my eyes out every day. Everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong. Two months before the big wedding, we called it off. We got married on a beach in Maui as we were going to honeymoon there anyway. Eight people came, including 2 that we didn’t want there and 1 that we wondered why she was brought there. But looking back, marrying on the beach was the best decision we could have made. If we would have stuck that, which was the original plan, it would have saved a lot of money and heartache.
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:21 am

I’m posting this one only because I’ve never heard the term “stink-bid” before. So much for those rich foreigners buying our property, eh?

From the Canada Post:

Florida ‘bargains’ can bite

Canadians have become as preoccupied with picking up Sunbelt bargains as they are with getting out of winter this year to somewhere warm and relatively cheap, thanks to the high Canadian dollar.

But caveat emptor. Canadians should only make stink bids when buying American real estate these days, higher Canadian dollar or not.

I have done a little preliminary investigation myself of “bargains” in Florida and the market down there remains a very scary one.

Most important to note is that Florida and other Sunbelt properties were in dire straits one year ago, in January, 2007, well before the subprime scandal cratered values.

The high dollar and high temperatures have created a rush by Canadians who have become bigger buyers. But unless they stole the store, they probably paid far too much.

I think it is still too early to pay anything more than a stink-bid price for any property south of the border.
lostinny says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:22 am

Stink-bid = lowball?
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:24 am

It has got to be.
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:01 am

I have reread yesterday’s posts. I am sorry in advance if I begin to ramble..

Kettle – Thank you for the link #119 from 1-10 to Peter Schiff on Bloomberg. What an eye-opener….What a straight shooter. Added to Confused in N.J. #366 – I have come to some sort of personal conclusion..

We need to vote in policy not people..

On one – not an individual or a nation can continue to spend money they do not have w/o dire consequences..DUH.

The problem is….individuals can have long-range goals and objectives but democracies cannot. Every few years we vote in new yahoos who find ways to spend anything that’s been responsibly put away for a rainy day. And..politicians (and the Fed) fail to look down the road beyond their re-election date to the long-term consequences of their actions. (I’m thinking back to when Buchanan actually reversed his stance on NAFTA once he realized the implications.)

Schiff said “Recession is the free market’s way of purging the excesses.” But will the politicians and the Fed let it happen? (Schiff’s analogy to heroin here is priceless.)

We need to “pay the piper” and get ourselves out of this mess before we move further down the professor’s list. But how do we “elect” sound fiscal policy when we have to vote for people? Supposedly, we find people with sound fiscal policy..but they aren’t there long enough to do any good….another set of yahoos comes along in 2 and 4 year incements..We need a 20-year policy plan..How do we elect one of those?
hughesrep says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:03 am

#2

I’m hearing from a lot of the subcontractors that the builders are getting real slow to pay. They are all stretching out past 60-90 days past due, and then playing games to partial pay even those past due amounts.
Clotpoll says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:04 am

See? You can even expand your vocabulary here.
lostinny says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:04 am

12 Cindy
Excellent points. But for me, voting always comes down to the lesser of the evils. I cannot remember a recent election where I actually liked a candidate.
Clotpoll says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:06 am

Cindy (12)-

“Supposedly, we find people with sound fiscal policy..but they aren’t there long enough to do any good….another set of yahoos comes along in 2 and 4 year incements..We need a 20-year policy plan..How do we elect one of those?”

Dunno. Have I asked you yet if you know anything about grenade launchers or hit-and-run battle tactics?
reinvestor101 says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:06 am

“I think it is still too early to pay anything more than a stink-bid price for any property south of the border.”

I think Canadians stink if they insist on lowballing. They can keep their asses the hell home as far as I’m concerned. We don’t need or want them buying a damn thing here.
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:16 am

#15 and #16 Oh, I’m just frustrated..the more you folks educate me the more frustrated I become. I’m an educator. I believe in education…but the big picture in unraveling “before my very eyes.”

Clot -I don’t know about grenade launchers..am I going to need to…soon?
crossroads says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:20 am

cindy
I have to think our 2-party system is part of our problem. you can compare it to a monopoly in politics.
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:20 am

We don’t need or want them buying a damn thing here.

Be careful what you wish for.

https://njrereport.com/files/07ForInvestment.pdf
https://njrereport.com/files/2007IntlProfileFloridafinal.pdf
Clotpoll says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:24 am

Cindy (18)-

“Clot -I don’t know about grenade launchers..am I going to need to…soon?”

Just another basic life skill.
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:25 am

(21) You officially crack me up.
Clotpoll says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:28 am

ReTard (17)-

“We don’t need or want them buying a damn thing here.”

You and your underwater friends should be so lucky. Anyway, the Canucks aren’t buying in Jersey.

They already live in an overregulated state that redistributes wealth and suppresses individual ambition and creation of wealth.
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:31 am

(23) Okay -You really officially crack me up…
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:36 am

Seriously, it took me forever to get out of debt when I started over from zip. How does a nation – who won’t even admit they have a problem – do it?

A good 12-step program?
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:39 am

Here is my best attempt at an economic analysis of the current U.S. global position.

It’s short, it’s sweet, and it requires no formal economic training to understand.

https://njrereport.com/images/usforsale.jpg

5 minutes of Photoshop fun on a Saturday morning.
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:43 am

(26) Okay Grim..Now YOU are cracking me up, too.
I really needed a good laugh..Thanks guys..
Just me says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:02 am

Grim ,,,,,,heheehe ..:)
Just me says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:06 am

If alreday posted sory!!!

Disgruntle Merrill Employee did #2 11-Jan-08 07:08 pm Gasparino speaks about Citi and Merrill. 5-1/2 minutes in, he talks about the employee who did a #2 (because employee was unhappy with bonus situation), now characterized as doing something in an “inappropriate way, and characterized as having an “accident”. Check it out.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=62…
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:06 am

Wow, 2004 prices in Ridgewood!

615 Maxwell Place, Ridgewood NJ
Purchased: 6/9/2004
Purchase Price: $459,000

MLS# 2736111
Sold: 1/11/2008
Sale Price: $462,000

Adjust that for inflation and transaction costs, and you are talking about a real loss of approximately $50k.

I thought this couldn’t happen in a prestigious Bergen County town…
Orion says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:09 am

#20-Reports

Grim- you ‘da man! Faster than a speedin’ bullet.
d2b says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:14 am

Grim-
When I click on a link on your site I am taken away from your page to the new page. Is there any way to set it up so that your links open in new tabs or windows? Is that a user setting in Explorer?
Pat says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:26 am

d2b, just right click open in new window if you’re using Windows.
Confused In NJ says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:46 am

Grim 26. Sad but True.
victorian says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:51 am

All: Thanks for the great inputs on this site. I am new out here, just wanted to get your inputs on Middlesex county – especially North Brunswick. I had a friend of my mine who works in FreddieMac run a check on comparative property check and it shows that there has been a 8% increase in house values from 2004, and a 78% increase from 2000.
As compared to Q4 2006, there has been a 2% decline.

Do you think that there is more correction to be had, what are your inputs?
Jaywalk says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:52 am

Rich in NNJ,

Re: #208, 213 & 214 on original thread

Thanks for the info on the Stuyvesant Ct Clifton listings.

I’m sure the guy who’s halfway done building two more a few hundred yards up the street is sweating bullets. He paid 500K for the teardown in 2005.

Thanks again.
YankeeGal says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:55 am

Had to jump in on the wedding discussion.

We got married by Elvis in Vegas. About 50 people showed up – it was great and everyone had a blast. I was never into the big wedding thing (even though I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it if you happen to have money to burn). My husband was married before… a lavish $35K wedding and the marriage lasted 11 months. As for gifts, I usually get something off the registry for around $100-$150. If someone decides to have a big fancy wedding it’s not my responsibility to help pay it off!!! That’s their problem!!!

I also refused to be a bridesmaid. What a waste of time and money. I had a matron of honor only and told her she could wear whatever she wanted.

As for real estate in my town… inventory has dropped dramatically from around 70 to 42. I think a lot of people have taken the house off the market to wait for springtime. Three lower-end houses that have been on the market forever have been holding their prices at $399K. A similar house in town just sold for $390K, which would have sold for the high $400s a couple of years ago.

In the meantime, me and my family are happy in our lovely cheap rental and living stress-free lives while we save lots of cash!!!

Many thanks Grim for all that you do.
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:13 am

Who says Manhattan is immune? Down approx 30% since 2000, as compared to the defacto currency. I guarantee, I will be buying, at 30-40% off 2005. That’s calculated dollars. However, I will be buying in gold, probably 60-80% off 2005.

http://wwwnysun.com/pics/68830.jpg?ref=patrick.net
bi says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:30 am

Choking up with emotion, the woman said, “In my neighborhood, there are brand-new homes, but the value is nothing. I’m glad you are here so I can tell you, because you’re going to be the president, I know.”

A man shouted through an opening in the wall that his wife was illegal.

“No woman is illegal,” Clinton said, to cheers.

http://www.lvrj.com/news/13702902.html
HEHEHE says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:31 am

I posted that Merrill story yesterday, if somebody could confirm with details that would be great.
bi says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:32 am

Citi looks to secure further $14bn in new capital
By Henny Sender in New York

Published: January 11 2008 22:02 | Last updated: January 11 2008 22:02

Citigroup is putting the final touches to its second big capital-raising effort in as many months, seeking up to $14bn from Chinese, Kuwaiti and public market investors.

Under the proposal being discussed, the bulk of the money – roughly $9bn – would be most likely to come from China, people familiar with the negotiations say. The Kuwait Investment Authority would contribute about $1bn, while $2bn to $4bn would be raised through a public placement of shares.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c6eb81e0-c083-11dc-b0b7-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1
bi says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:37 am

where is vice president cheney? we haven’t seen him on spotlight for a few months. my guess is he has been setting up energy trading shop to bring price down.
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:49 am

HEHEHE (40)

I think that was #268 dealbreaker.com
Just me says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:51 am

# 40, HEHEHE i did…rumor has it “good source” the wizz was not about bonus but couse of “Pink Slip” atatched to it!

Also from “Johnnie Bar and Grill” ….staff is quietly leaving with boxes’s ,,,,from all buildings at WFC , escorted of course!!
Shore Guy says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:54 am

# 25 “Seriously, it took me forever to get out of debt when I started over from zip. How does a nation – who won’t even admit they have a problem – do it? ”

Step one — Ballance the budget, so no more borrowing is needed

Step two — short blast of high inflation, to tame the current value of the outstanding debt.

#42 An undisclosed location, a.k.a heart unit?
Rich In NNJ says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:57 am

Grim,

When I click on… your site I am taken away…

Me too!
reinvestor101 says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:09 am

No wonder. They’ve got the same damn liberal wimps running things up there just like we do in New Jersey. The liberals have ruined this damn country.

Many of the posters here lean liberal. This is why I have so many problems here. The basic problem with liberals is disloyalty. They hate America and love anything that’s against America.

Clotpoll Says:
January 12th, 2008 at 8:28 am
ReTard (17)-

“We don’t need or want them buying a damn thing here.”

You and your underwater friends should be so lucky. Anyway, the Canucks aren’t buying in Jersey.

They already live in an overregulated state that redistributes wealth and suppresses individual ambition and creation of wealth.
3b says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:21 am

#47 reundewater: Yeah those wimpy Liberals, not like those tought guys like yourself, now crying to be bailed out by that same wimpy Liberal govenment.

Take your medicine like a man;crybaby.
njrebear says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:26 am

Bush to present economic stimulus plan Jan. 28: report

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/bush-present-economic-stimulus-plan/story.aspx?guid=%7B74B70329%2DE5E4%2D4CC3%2D9B6C%2D24D8C45C6240%7D&dist=hplatest
njrebear says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:31 am

“No woman is illegal,” Clinton said, to cheers.

>>

I wonder why she didn’t say “In most cases, no woman is illegal”. I bet if it was a prepared speech she would have said just said that.
njpatient says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:32 am

“I just don’t get the idea of expecting to make money back at a wedding.”

Nor do I.
gary says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:40 am

“I just don’t get the idea of expecting to make money back at a wedding.”

That’s because people get invited to a wedding now with this entitlement mentality in mind. The same mentality that expects $100,000 per year straight out of college and the CHC in the suburbs a year or two later. Don’t forget the his and her leased imports sitting in the driveway, too.
Sykes says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:41 am

I always love this bank Hudson city gave me my first mtg.had to jump through hoops for it,but very competitive rates .not enough branches around the only drawback .It looks like they have survived the sub-prime mess too stock still looks attractive …http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080107/nym154.html?.v=94
Essex says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:41 am

51….yeah people….it’s not like its a Bar Mitzvah.
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:52 am

Clotpoll – Did I miss something? Did that guy’s tirade arise from your comment about “an overregulated state that supresses individual ambition and the creation of wealth? Uh…..what is liberal about being against the redistribution of wealth?
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 12:09 pm

Times are a changing. 500K, Upper Mountain Ave, Montclair??

601 Upper Mtn Ave- MLS# 2472467

I did not want to post the link, free advertising for the realtor.
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 12:28 pm

Oh my. Are my eyes deceiving me?

Westfield; Desperate seller [their words, not mine], 11 year old colonial, 4br, 2.5 bths. Free mortgage payments for a year. Today’s Star Ledger.

I guess all the realtors who are roaming the town, knocking on doors with buyers, have somehow missed this one?
Frank says:

January 12, 2008 at 12:30 pm

What all this gloom and doom out there prices on the Gold Coast (Hoboken, JC, etc..) are still going up. What up with that?
lisoosh says:

January 12, 2008 at 12:46 pm

“lostinny Says:
January 12th, 2008 at 7:20 am
I just don’t get the idea of expecting to make money back at a wedding. At the time we got married, many of our friends didn’t have a pot to piss in. Does that mean we shouldn’t have invited them because they couldn’t “cover their plates”? Of course not. They were invited because we wanted people we love to celebrate with us. And that’s all we expected. But then, I’m in public service so I must be an idiot to start with.”

Don’t forget that the idea of a wedding being about the happiness of the couple is actually a very modern Western concept. In many cultures it is about family, and the joining of families – the couple are almost incidental. In others the actual POINT is for the guests and family to give gifts that will give the couple a jump start on setting up a home. Chickens and feather beds just gave way to cash in an envelope.

There is a bit of a mix now in the modern US – overconsumption and the wish to have the focus on the couple, with the “Old World” idea still ingrained that the wedding should provide the couple with a start.
I do think it is a shame that the modern “do” leaves a couple in debt. That is the worst way to start a marriage.
lisoosh says:

January 12, 2008 at 12:49 pm

#55 Cindy –

You so do NOT want to know the genesis of that. Be grateful you are a newcomer.
mark says:

January 12, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Grim:

Did mls 2439294 close?

and is mls 2445420 still under contract?
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 12:58 pm

#60 Lisoosh –

Got it – Thanks for the heads up…
Sybarite says:

January 12, 2008 at 1:03 pm

#61

Both still UC
chicagofinance says:

January 12, 2008 at 1:10 pm

kettle: vainglorious popinjay….had to look it up
chicagofinance says:

January 12, 2008 at 1:12 pm

Now Open, Part II! Prior weekend thread closed due to comment overflow

no $hit
chicagofinance says:

January 12, 2008 at 1:16 pm

crossroads Says:
January 12th, 2008 at 8:20 am
cindy I have to think our 2-party system is part of our problem. you can compare it to a monopoly in politics.

X: i believe in the 2 party system….ya’ party all day and then ya’ party all night…
Clotpoll says:

January 12, 2008 at 1:21 pm

cindy (55)-

There’s a reason I call him ReTard.

The guy either lives in a windowless basement, writing his manifesto…or, he’s your basic, garden-variety troll.

My guess has always been the latter.
Frank says:

January 12, 2008 at 1:27 pm

“Driving the family car on the New Jersey Turnpike from the Lincoln Tunnel to the Delaware Memorial Bridge — just about the length of the highway — could rise to $48 from $5.85. For truck drivers, navigating that same stretch of highway would soar to $186 from the current $23.” I love’ll it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/12/nyregion/12tolls.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
syncmaster says:

January 12, 2008 at 1:31 pm

I am new out here, just wanted to get your inputs on Middlesex county – especially North Brunswick.

North Brunswick is on the downslide. As New Brunswick revitalizes, the sewage is slowly trickling into North Brunswick (and Franklin). I’d stay away.
Frank says:

January 12, 2008 at 1:33 pm

Beginning of the end for Manhattan residential real estate market.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/realestate/13cov.html
Sybarite says:

January 12, 2008 at 1:38 pm

#69

Plus, commuting to most places from North Brunswick is hellish.
MS says:

January 12, 2008 at 1:45 pm

What is everyone’s opinion about online banks such as ING Direct and Etrade that offer mortgages? I notice that the rates seem to be lower than what I can get locally, but how good are they for mortgages on a primary home and also for vacation homes? Any drawbacks?
Is there any online bank offering mortgages that everyone thinks is the best?
Thanks.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 1:52 pm

Frank 68 So the truckers pay more the shippers pay more the goods cost more & we buy them.Sheeple think its better than higher taxes but it is just the same.No matter how you cut we pay.
Confused In NJ says:

January 12, 2008 at 1:58 pm

The most interesting thing about the Republican & Democratic Party’s is, they don’t even pretend to represent the People anymore, just their Party. Clinton’s call for another $80B in debt, is another key signal that Democracy is in it’s Twilight. The Republicans & Democrats both think that adding Trillions to future generations Debt is Good Government. The Candle always Burns Brightest, before it Goes Out. Maybe, we’ll get lucky in the next election, and they’ll be a massive write in vote for a Third Party Candidate. Doesn’t matter who, has to be better then Tweedle Dee Dee & Tweedle Dee Dum.
syncmaster says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:04 pm

A table using EZPass data, showing NJ residents using the Turnpike and the Parkway broken down by county. This shows who the toll increases will impact more and who it will impact less.

Middlesex county has about 9% of NJ’s population and Middlesex residents are about 16% of the NJ residents who use EZPass on the Parkway and Turnpike.

Obviously, the new toll increases will disproportionately affect Middlesex (and Monmouth) residents.

http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates_impact/2008/01/TOLL12.pdf
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:07 pm

Confused Did you see last debate 1 person railed against leaving debt for our future gens Fred Thompson.Not an endorsment,but it is central to his positions.
sas says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:15 pm

watch the Chinese peg…!!

rising Gold prices & falling dollar may put pressure on the chinese peg. If the peg goes, so does the dollar.

Rememedy.. fix budget deficits and reduce national debts. but s**t in one hand and wish in the other.

THats why I say.. watch the gold prices and the peg.

THats all for now.

SAS
gryffindor says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:16 pm

LOL Grim at your photoshop project.

All this wedding talk. I am nervous about my parents having to pay for my wedding even though my boyfriend has yet to propose! We have attended over-the-top South Asian weddings in NY/NJ for the past 10 years and critique all of them on the way home. As a result, my parents will have little choice but to throw something similar when it’s their turn for me or else become gossip fodder amongst their friends (South Asians don’t just keep up with the Joneses, they keep tabs on them). I’m looking for a part-time job now to start saving and help them out when the time does come. Hopefully I’ll have something left over to use on a downpayment.

It’s really ridiculous the stupid stuff the wedding industry has concocted as necessary (ice sculputures? come on!) to have the perfect day. No groom is arriving on an elephant or horse at my wedding, now that is clearly a waste of money.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:18 pm

I live in sussex so tolls will not hurt me directly but still a bad idea.Lower spending
that is the answer.Not to make NJ more expense for people & business.Then more people & business leave less taxes more debt.Race to the bottom for our state.
Ann says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:24 pm

7 grim Re House Lust by McGinn

There is an excerpt of this book in Newsweek this week. It sounds like quite a interesting book.

I think another driver playing into our “House Lust” is a reverse house lust.

A house Schadenfreude if you will.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:26 pm

78 gryffindor Plead,beg,cry,fight or be an a** but don’t do that wedding unless its what you guys want.Instead tell mom & dad to help you out to buy a home.Just wait 2 years till the market is toast.Make them listen its your future at stake.
HEHEHE says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:28 pm

“Just me Says:
January 12th, 2008 at 10:51 am
# 40, HEHEHE i did…rumor has it “good source” the wizz was not about bonus but couse of “Pink Slip” atatched to it!

Also from “Johnnie Bar and Grill” ….staff is quietly leaving with boxes’s ,,,,from all buildings at WFC , escorted of course!!”

It’s interesting that they’ve made such an attempt to keep the number and size of the Wall Street layoffs under the radar.
3b says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:31 pm

#81 mike: Just wait 2 years till the market is toast.

2 Years? The market will be toast before the end of this year.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:32 pm

The market tanks on any bad news how do you
think yhe layoffs would play.
syncmaster says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:33 pm

gryff: A friend is getting married, she wants to save money so she convinced her parents and her fiance that the wedding should happen in India. It’ll cost a lot less out there and they’ll get all the bells and whistles they want. This is even though both people live here and grew up here. Just a thought.
3b says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:34 pm

#58 frank: No they are not, and there is a ton of inventory in both locations.
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:34 pm

mark,

Both still UC.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:35 pm

3b Just alittle safe advice.I think you will agree that in 2 years still flat.They are young, not married ,no kids ,no need to rush.
grim says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:36 pm

Times are a changing. 500K, Upper Mountain Ave, Montclair??

601 Upper Mtn Ave- MLS# 2472467

BC,

That ain’t the half of it.

Purchased: 6/12/2006
Purchase Price: $570,000
syncmaster says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:43 pm

Can I get an address on GSMLS # 2453756 please?

Thanks much!
Ann says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:54 pm

gryffindor

If your parents feel pressure to have a big wedding for you so THEY aren’t the subject of gossip, then let them worry about it! Don’t drag yourself into it.

Tell them what type of wedding would make you happy, and if it’s not enough for them and their friends, then it’s their problem, not yours.

Although you sound like a very nice daughter that you would get a PT job to help.
Sybarite says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:57 pm

#90

633 DRAKE AVE
Middlesex Boro
syncmaster says:

January 12, 2008 at 2:59 pm

Syb, thanks. I appreciate it!
Willow says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:06 pm

https://njrereport.com/index.php/2008/01/12/weekend-open-discussion-part-ii-5/#comments

Dump this house! How to sell your home fast
5 mistakes anxious sellers make, plus tips to get the highest sticker price

I don’t know if Ebay is the best way to sell a house but some of the other tips might help.
Happy Camper says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:09 pm

Confused In NJ Says:
January 12th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
“The most interesting thing about the Republican & Democratic Party’s is, they don’t even pretend to represent the People anymore, just their Party.”

+What?

Clinton’s call for another $80B in debt, is another key signal that Democracy is in it’s Twilight.

+You are attacking somebody who is not the president. Bush is leaving the biggest deficit in the history of the country.

The Republicans & Democrats both think that adding Trillions to future generations Debt is Good Government.

+The past 7 yrs have been under Bush. FYI, he’s a Republican.

The Candle always Burns Brightest, before it Goes Out.

+what?

Maybe, we’ll get lucky in the next election, and they’ll be a massive write in vote for a Third Party Candidate. Doesn’t matter who, has to be better then Tweedle Dee Dee & Tweedle Dee Dum

-what?
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:13 pm

JB [89],

OK. If they sell at their ask, after comm., it’s approx a 20% loss since 6/06. The media, H-B’s, IB’s, and our govt have the b#lls to call this a subprime issue? What a bunch of hogwash.

Everybody better protect themselves, the fed is trying to rob us all. Fight the fed, there’s enormous opportunities.

JB,

Check your email.
Frank says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:14 pm

#73,
Lets raise taxes, tolls, fees and anything else we can. Lets keep people out of NJ.
Frank says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:16 pm

#86,
High inventory and high prices, it does not make any sense at all.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:18 pm

Happy Camper So since Bush F**KEd up we should vote for someone who will surly put us in more debt (DEM).IF you are so interested in lower debt try Ron Paul.
Sykes says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:20 pm

any reason FOX edited this clip ,and tried to block it’s release http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mffpkCH-PJw
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:23 pm

Frank 97 Its not a matter of keeping people out its trying to keep people & business here.WE NEED #s to share tax burden don’t you get it.Or maybe you would like to pay by yourself.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:29 pm

Sykes AS I remember they cut him off did not air his answer.I do not remember him saying most of that.Anybody else?
syncmaster says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:30 pm

#101,

If everyone in Jersey made 250K+, the need for services would be low and the capacity to pay would be high. Win-win for all!

Solution: Drive all the losers (I’m one of them) out!
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:38 pm

Syncmaster 103 About what 10% of the pop.
can stay & pay all the public workers retirement & medical for life.Have fun Frank
I’ll op out of NJ.
syncmaster says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:46 pm

If the losers are driven out, many of them will be teachers and cops and public workers.
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:48 pm

JB,

Thanks.
gryffindor says:

January 12, 2008 at 3:59 pm

syncmaster, I’m aware that people head to India to save money. You can be way more extravagant and excessive over there at a lesser cost. It makes no sense to us since we grew up here and we want to celebrate with our friends who are all here. Hardly anyone will trek over there with us so it would be no fun to party with a bunch of distant relatives. We attended a friend’s wedding in 2001 and seven years later we all still reminisce about how much fun it was; that’s the kind of wedding we want.

Lisoosh said it well that weddings in some cultures are all about the parents and the bride and groom are just accesories.
It would be nice to just use that money on a downpayment, but that wedding is going to be expected from the families on both sides.

Ann, they will be worrying but then they’re gonna rope me into the worrying with them. It’s how I ended up on this site since they’ve been househunting in NJ for the past 9 months and I’m just trying to grasp the crazy market to understand what they’re going throuh. It’s ok if they want to throw a big wedding, I’d too would like a nice celebration with their friends and mine. I think we’re all on the same page about stuff so nothing is going to be excessive except the buffet. :)
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 4:01 pm

Wow..#100 is powerful Sykes. Could he be any more well spoken? He knew exactly what he wanted to say and he said it.
Sean says:

January 12, 2008 at 4:21 pm

re: 100

Ron Paul is for limited federal government just like GW Bush was before 2001. He is inline with the older republican thinking and not this neocon infected pus filled government we have now.

The next debate is on CNN, should be interesting since the Clinton News Network is out to make all of the GOP look bad.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 4:30 pm

SEAN 109 Agreed what did you think of Thompson.Is he not cut from same cloth.
d2b says:

January 12, 2008 at 4:43 pm

gryffindor-
I think the worst thing that you can do in this case is have an over the top wedding. In your case, think about doing something completely different like a destination type affair.

If you truly believe that an over the top event is a waste of money, don’t make the problem worse by outdoing others. Do something different. There are plenty of reasons for getting a part time job. Getting one to pay for your wedding is not one of them.
Sean says:

January 12, 2008 at 4:47 pm

Bennie and the Feds..

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=etfVMtCq9Oc
syncmaster says:

January 12, 2008 at 4:52 pm

gryff #107

We attended a friend’s wedding in 2001 and seven years later we all still reminisce about how much fun it was; that’s the kind of wedding we want.

Fair enough. Since you already know what you want, I guess now the only thing to decide is how to keep costs manageable and how to pay for it. Good luck and congrats :)
Hobokenite says:

January 12, 2008 at 5:01 pm

Chifi,

re:chainsaw al from yesterday

Hoboken native.
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 5:05 pm

I love those words “strict fiscal conservative…” I don’t think they can ignore Ron Paul any longer.

Seattle 14 Green Bay 7
lostinny says:

January 12, 2008 at 5:05 pm

59 Lisoosh
Well said. I’m well aware. However, given the fact that I am wholly ingrained in not just Western culture but American culture, I am pretty far removed from where those ideas originated. And if you saw the presents given on both sides of the family, for those that even gave anything, you’d know that they were removed from the idea of starting our home as well. :)
lostinny says:

January 12, 2008 at 5:07 pm

Just a reminder. It was the Dems that left office with a budget surplus. The Republicans found a way to piss it away.
Sean says:

January 12, 2008 at 5:25 pm

re: 110 mikeinwaiting

Thompson speaks bluntly and forcefully which he can probably credit his Actor training for. He has copied Ronald Regan’s playbook on just about everything from missile defense to reforming the tax code. He takes a tough position on the border and immigration and believes in State’s rights and limited Federal Government.

He was also a Washington lobbyist until about 2006. Washington DC is a cesspool that needs new thinking to fix. I don’t think he will be overturning the apple cart in DC if elected.
Clotpoll says:

January 12, 2008 at 5:37 pm

sean (118)-

Fred Thompson was a US Senator from Tennessee.
Clotpoll says:

January 12, 2008 at 5:41 pm

OT, for the real football fans here:

Man U 6, Toon 0. We bagged Allardyce and our 11 went out and proved we can play even worse.

What a shame. Not even Redknapp wants any part of this mess.
gryffindor says:

January 12, 2008 at 5:50 pm

d2b – I guess I’m not being very clear. I don’t want a destination, city hall or Vegas. We (bf & I) wouldn’t have fun with any of those and my parents would always be known as “they didn’t even give their daughter a wedding” even if it was my choice not to have one. Weddings are a big deal in the Indian community. Since my parents are going to feel obligated to host one anyways, I’m just going to work with them to keep it reasonable but even moderate weddings cost money.

The problem is that the Indian community is known for throwing excessive weddings (mine will not be one of them!). Anyone who has been to an Indian wedding can tell you that. A lot of what goes on is just absurd and adds to the cost but not the experience. IMO there is no need for horses & elephants, ice sculptures, 14 bridesmaids, live butterflies, giant flower centerpieces, flower gates, worthless flashy favors, boring professional performers, and I could go on.

I don’t mind working a little extra to save for a wedding. I get paid well (remember the top-10 overpaid list?) so it’s a small sacrifice for me considering how much my parents have done for me.
Confused In NJ says:

January 12, 2008 at 5:54 pm

Democracy in America-How Long Do We Have?

—————————————————————————————
How Long Do We Have?

About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:

“A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.”

“A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.”

“From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.”

“The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history,has been about 200 years”

“During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

3. From courage to liberty;

4. From liberty to abundance;

5. From abundance to complacency;

6. From complacency to apathy;

7. From apathy to dependence;

8. From dependence back into bondage”

Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, believes the United States is now somewhere between the “complacency and apathy phase of Professor Tyler’s definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation’s population already having reached the “governmental dependency” phase.
syncmaster says:

January 12, 2008 at 5:58 pm

gryff,

It’s ironic that we have horses and professional dancers but so many “weddings” have no actual agni anymore.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:02 pm

SEAN 118 I don’t see anyone but Paul doing that.I don’t think he has a chance so I would take the 2nd coming of Regan in policy.
gryffindor says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:05 pm

syncmaster – no congrats yet. There will likely be a wedding in the next few years, but the bf has yet to propose (3.5 years, what’s he waiting for?). I think he’s trying to decide whether to stay on Wall Street or go to b-school before finally commiting to me.
Ann says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:07 pm

107 gryff

I hear ya. My parents paid for our wedding, and even though it was a relatively low-key luncheon wedding, albeit at a very nice hotel, it was still 20K by the time it was over. Better spent on a down payment? Maybe, but they weren’t going to give it to me for a down payment, they were going to have a party, darn it!

I found while planning it, that it was much harder to plan a ‘simple’ wedding. Sometimes it’s easier to just go with the flow and do the standard things.
sas says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:11 pm

I like Ron Paul

SAS
Confused In NJ says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:11 pm

Happy Camper: The Third Party Candidate refers to all elected official, not the President. It is Congress which is most corrupt, and must be replaced, in total. It is Congress who has been bought and paid for by lobbyists, including Clinton, Kennedy and Kerry. They all have to go.
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:12 pm

-Complacency
-Concern
-Fear
-Panic

What stage describes the present seller?
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:14 pm

“It is Congress which is most corrupt, and must be replaced, in total.”

Confused [128],

I agree. However, first we must abolish the fed, the congress comes in a close second.
sas says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:16 pm

Keep your eyes on the gold prices and the chinese peg. Pay down any debts.

Ron Paul has my vote come super Tues.

Now, back to football.
Go Pack!!!
sas says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:18 pm

BC Bob,

“What stage describes the present seller?”

I think the market is between concern and fear, with a pinch of denial.

I don’t think we will see a panic anytime soon, but with current climate. That could change very fast.

SAS
syncmaster says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:20 pm

gryff #125, well then… I take my congrats back hehehe… No, seriously, good luck with everything and hope things work out the way you plan!
Sean says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:34 pm

re: 119 right he was a Senator but he was always a lobbyist going back to the 1970s. His two sons are also lobbyists.

Fred Thompson is a Washington insider who lives in McClean Virgina. He lobbied on behalf of S&L deregulation, nuclear power plants, and a giant foreign insurance companies. That’s not exactly the populist image he has been trying to portray. His last paycheck of 750k for lobbying was in 2006 for a foreign insurance company to lobbying change the law on Asbestos lawsuits.

I for one don’t think blunt speaking Fred, the lawyer-turned-lobbyist-turned-actor-turned-senator -turned back into lobbyist and now turned Presidential candidate will be an agent of change in DC.
spam spam bacon spam says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:42 pm

[74] Confused:

My other half has made the suggestion that we place “none of the above” on every ballot…if “none” wins, we start with new candidates…

It’s surreal when you think “nobody” is better than most candidates…
Ann says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:47 pm

-Complacency
-Concern
-Fear
-Panic

What stage describes the present seller?

I would say mild concern, but most are still in denial.
spam spam bacon spam says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:50 pm

[99] MIW…

“Ron Paul”…

Get real. You’ll get nothing but a frenzy of “batsh** craziness” with Ron Paul.

He11, if RP got elected, I’d be looking to Clot to show me how to lock-n-load the grenade launchers I end up buying.

RP says 911 is a conspiracy. That’s just the beginning…he’s truly baked.
chicagofinance says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:56 pm

gryffindor Says:
January 12th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
syncmaster – no congrats yet. There will likely be a wedding in the next few years, but the bf has yet to propose (3.5 years, what’s he waiting for?). I think he’s trying to decide whether to stay on Wall Street or go to b-school before finally commiting to me.

gryff: B-school does two things to existing relationships….it ends them or it galvanizes them…no in between…you will either get it all or be set free.

Bottom line: don’t let him do b-school without getting hardware in advance….it is not extortion….he is signaling you, and you should pay rapt attention…
syncmaster says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:56 pm

spam #137,

He said he is not a “truther”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhQ8xi312l8
Confused In NJ says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:58 pm

(135) spam spam bacon spam:

Your better half is right. If we could get an Electoral Majority of “Nobody”, it would be hard for the Donkey & Elephant to ignore. My spouse & I will write in “Nobody”, come next election, accross the board. If I was still in VietNam, I would swear the current Government were All VietCong. Donkey LBJ & Elephant GB are two sides of the same coin, along with their Traitorous Rubber Stamping Congresses. I wonder if Castro or Kennedy will win the Title of Oldest Sitting Despot.
Sean says:

January 12, 2008 at 6:59 pm

re: 137

Spam that is truthiness. Ron Paul never said it was a conspiracy. When he was asked by students he said he did not think the original investigation was adequate.

Here is he position on 9/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfdq6hoe-XY
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:13 pm

Get Together;

How about someplace closer east than Morristown?

It may be a half way point for all. It’s a sports bar on Route 10, right off 280, in East Hanover, connected to the Ramada Inn. The place is huge and plenty of tables in the back, away from the riff-raff. However, if riff-raff is your thing, you’re in. No problem with parking. Also, I think Clot’s launchers may reach Morristown, we may want to be out of range?

Pat,

You’ll love it, home of the Nittany Lions NNJ alumni assoc, you may be required to dance on the bar.

I say, Sat Feb 2nd. Super Bowl weekend. What better way to kick off the spring selling season with a bunch of growling bears? 50.5, I’m buying, for you, not the whole group. Anyone burdened with the cost of 4 walls and a roof deserves a reprieve.

http://www.ramadaeasthanover.com/SportsZone.nxg
kettle1 says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:14 pm

135

Actually ron paul is better then ALL of the other candidates.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:14 pm

SEAN 141 I think that clears up Pauls position.SPAM he may not be main stream but he sure would shake up the gov.& that is surely needed.None of the above does nothing as far as I’m concerned.I don’t like all his positions but would be better than same old dem or repub.
kettle1 says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:18 pm

On another note, I find it somewhat refreshing that someone like cindy can come in here ad ask intelligent questions and actually see the current lies that are the economic propaganda seen on CNN and fox every night, for what they are. It is easy to lose hope when most people you talk to about the real state of the economy and market just wave you off and say that “if it was that bad why didnt i see it on fox or cnn?”

Cindy,

Thanks for being am intellectually curious individual open to new ideas :)
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:18 pm

AS to meeting place as long as I not traveling I’m good any sat.Motown E Hanover
OK,Gold Coast A real haul.
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:20 pm

Forget about Ron Paul for President. I want him to be named Fed Chairman.
Confused In NJ says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:26 pm

Ancient Sparta had two Kings, a War King and a Peace King. Maybe we could divide the Country in half, and have a Public Sector President and a Private Sector President. In the Public Sector Land only Public Sector people will be taxed for Public Sector Benefits. If a Teacher wants a $1000 per week raise, they say O.K., then increase their Salary & Tax by $1000/-$1000. In Private Sector Land we outsource all School Functions to India, etc., and the Children learn Math & Science, at a low cost. Illegals are Free to live in Public Sector Land by the Trillions, but banned from living in Private Sector Land. They can be day workers in Private Sector Land, but must return to Public Sector Land at 5 P.M. Lobbyst’s can also live in the Trillions in Public Sector Land, but would also be banned from Private Sector Land. Lawyers can be unlimited in Public Sector Land, but cannot exceed the number of Farmers in Private Sector Land, and can only serve in the Judicial arm of Government.
Clotpoll says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:28 pm

I want Cindy to be prez. Ron Paul understands economics, but he’s otherwise a certifiable kook. Something about him makes me think he’d quickly become fascinated with the red button and telephone next to his desk. Ron…it’s not the Staples “Easy” button!

I do like Bloomberg, though. I hope the Dem/Repub candidates set-up the way he feels it needs to for him to jump into the race.
Clotpoll says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:29 pm

BC (147)-

First act: undo Bretton Woods.
Clotpoll says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:30 pm

Straight gold standard!
Essex says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:40 pm

149….Bloomberg the man….is impressive as hell. He ‘is’ the American success story. He lived it. The self-made man. His skills are undeniable. He would need a really good vocal coach to appeal to the folks down in the southland though.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:44 pm

BC Ron Paul Fed Chairmen I’ll vote for anyone who gives me that writen in blood.

Confused 148 You just laid down the idea for a great book.I’m already getting a story line in my head.

CLOT GOlD is the way to go.
syncmaster says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:45 pm

Can a third party win, though? There are way too many blind party loyalists in this state and in this country, who will always vote R or D no matter what. The partisan sh1theads are the ones responsible for the mess we’re in.
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:46 pm

You guys ALL crack me up!

so it’s settled..Ron Paul for Fed Chair or…the next Governor of California…

I have never learned so much in such a short amount of time..Thank you all..

Cindy
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:48 pm

CINDY Are you not happy with Arnold.
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:50 pm

“I think the market is between concern and fear, with a pinch of denial.”

SAS [132],

Good point. I should’ve included that between concern and fear.
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:56 pm

“First act: undo Bretton Woods.”

Clot [150],

Unfortunately, currency devaluation is the tool to increase competitivness. God forbid we induce saving to reduce the balace of our current accout deficit. Can you imagine a CB with checks and balances?

Welcome to 2008, the race of the currencies to the bottom. What CB is the bigger pimp? That’s OK, there is only one winner in this charade.
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 7:59 pm

Just so you feel encouraged..I actually hang with a pretty intellectually aware group of folks. Every one I know turns to the internet for the news. Even though the wives are/were in education, the guys are self-employed business owners… Everything from electronic engineering, home building, to the local sporting goods store. So I am always hearing how they are trying to make a buck while being taxed to death. I believe small businesses are the backbone of America.

I was in banking – I think I would have done well. But I truly have a passion to teach. It means the world to me.

I am totally lucky. (They treat me to some pretty good food..they are all always there for me) We are all old college friends. When I returned from Oregon 10 years ago they embraced me as though I’d never left…
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:08 pm

(156) No, mikeinwaiting..Cindy is not pleased with Arnold these days. We had some money..he spent it..
Pat says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:11 pm

Bob, thanks for the link on the hotel. Even if the meet-up isn’t there, I may have to try hanging there for a game in the Fall.
John says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:15 pm

S&P 500 companies scheduled to report quarterly results next week include Citigroup Inc., General Electric Co., Intel Corp., International Business Machines Corp., JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Merrill Lynch & Co.

Next week will be sooo much fun
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:17 pm

Cindy 160
Don’t feel so bad in NJ we have no money &
they spend it anyway.If we had a surplus &
they just spent to 0 we would be dancing in the streets.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:21 pm

John 162 That will be ugly.Shave off another couple of 100 pts.I think Shore Guy called 1200 by end of month I’m inclined to agree.
John says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:24 pm

RE As for gifts, I usually get something off the registry for around $100-$150. If someone decides to have a big fancy wedding it’s not my responsibility to help pay it off!!! That’s their problem!!!

No one in New York does a wedding registry, that is for bridal or engagement shower, do you just give that much cash.

In regards to indian weddings they are crazy, got invited to a jain wedding recently the card said NO BOXED GIFTS in big letters. The groom I knew invited me when I asked him why the invite came from him and not the bride he said indian weddings are so big most people on his side have no clue who the bride is so he is sending out under his name. He also said he does not know a lot of the people on his side either as they are business associates of his dad. He did not ride in on a white elephant but he did have a white horse. Brides dad paid.

I
kettle1 says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:28 pm

Clinton in nevada

Clinton and her busload of traveling press moved from there to the popular local Mexican restaurant Lindo Michoacan, where a “roundtable” that was actually square passed a microphone around to tell her people’s concerns about the mortgage crisis and foreclosures. She took notes and munched on tortilla chips.

In broken English, one woman told Clinton how she wasn’t making money as a broker anymore.

“I have no income at all,” she said. “So how will I survive?”

Choking up with emotion, the woman said, “In my neighborhood, there are brand-new homes, but the value is nothing. I’m glad you are here so I can tell you, because you’re going to be the president, I know.”

A man shouted through an opening in the wall that his wife was illegal.

“No woman is illegal,” Clinton said, to cheers.

Summing it up at the end, Clinton said, “We’ve only talked to a few people, but each of them talk about some part of the problem we are confronting. This is a problem that is only going to get worse if we don’t address it.”

Clinton said unscrupulous lending leads to bad mortgages, which lead to foreclosures, which lead to people with nowhere to go and vacant neighborhoods that can go rapidly downhill.

First, this woman scares me, she is nothing but a populist pig. The Fed will probably have to buy a new printing press to keep up between her housing bailout and her plan to spend her way out of recession
spam spam bacon spam says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:29 pm

[128] Confused:

“It is Congress which is most corrupt, and must be replaced, in total. It is Congress who has been bought and paid for by lobbyists, including Clinton, Kennedy and Kerry. They all have to go.”

SENATOR Clinton
SENATOR Kennedy
SENATOR Kerry

Jus’ sayin’…
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:31 pm

“they just spent to 0 we would be dancing in the streets.”

mike [163],

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79CWb23NZrc
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:35 pm

JOhn Been to at least 25 weddings in NY/metro area always money,I must say haven’t seen the white horse thing.But then again I don’t know any indian people that well, must be some bash.These days its a 200
in the card.Inflation!
Greg says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:37 pm

I think the Turnpike plan will have harmful long term consequences including people and business leaving the State of NJ.

Also, I found a cool forum if u are from NJ – http://www.newjerseylegalforums.com
John says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:38 pm

BTW we has a wedding discussions on fake weddings. Indian weddings where the groom already got married to bring bride into country, couples living together who after years she is preggie gets a wedding, beach weddings with a rent a minster (think rev jim from Taxi) or born again kooky weddings. I feel it is a gyp and may cause me to give less. Others felt different. If I go to a wedding for my $250 bucks per couple check I expect to see a wedding. Those fake Tom Cruise like weddings to me that is a real shake down for gifts.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:40 pm

BC Good one enjoyed it!
spam spam bacon spam says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:48 pm

139 Sync:

He said he is not a “truther”.

I did some digging and found some “mud”, but you’re correct, as far as I can see, he’s not a truther….probably just pandered to the university kids.

He’s a nice guy, sure…but he’s got too many wrong opinions for me to vote for him.

I did look at him to see if I would vote for him, and some of his stances are inline with mine, however, he is off-base, IMO, on several important issues…
Pebbles says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:51 pm

what important issues is he off base on? I watched the debate and I thought he brought up some very good points
spam spam bacon spam says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:56 pm

166 Ket.

“Clinton said unscrupulous lending leads to bad mortgages, which lead to foreclosures, which lead to people with nowhere to go and vacant neighborhoods that can go rapidly downhill.

First, this woman scares me, she is nothing but a populist pig. The Fed will probably have to buy a new printing press to keep up between her housing bailout and her plan to spend her way out of recession”

Kettle, first, she’s a woman, not a pig. That’s offensive to many women.

Second, I dont see where her empathizing with a voter about “unscrupulous lending leads to bad mortgages, which lead to foreclosures, which lead to people with nowhere to go and vacant neighborhoods that can go rapidly downhill” becomes “housing bailout” and “plan to spend her way out of recession”…

If the “unscrupulous” comment is true, I see nothing wrong with it, as it’s based in truth. We all know that.

If I’m missing a link between her empathatic statement and “a plan for housing bailout plus spending to reduce(?) a recession”, let me know… I haven’t heard about it yet.
John says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:57 pm

NJ weddings are now 200 in the card is the equivalent of a 15% tip, 250 in card is like 20% tip. Crappy wedding 200 good one 250!
d2b says:

January 12, 2008 at 8:58 pm

Bloomberg as a VP?
He has ties to both sides and there is very little chance of him winning as an outright independent. If he jumps in as a third party candidate I believe he will kill the Republican candidate.
d2b says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:00 pm

John-
How do you know ahead of time if it’s a 200 or 250?
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:03 pm

(158) BCBob – I had to go to Wiki to figure out what “Bretton Woods” meant…

Monetary policy…This is different than “reading the news on the internet.”
This is a sort of upper division economics course..
chicagofinance says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:04 pm

Essex Says:
January 12th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
149….Bloomberg the man….is impressive as hell. He ‘is’ the American success story. He lived it. The self-made man. His skills are undeniable. He would need a really good vocal coach to appeal to the folks down in the southland though.

SX: If I didn’t know he was Mr. Hookup, I would swear that he is a younger Ed Koch. Ah…those summers on Fire Island…
chicagofinance says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:07 pm

East Hanover? ……….. common sense dictates………
http://www.jrwhippany.com/
John says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:08 pm

I write check at wedding.
That rule is for guests only, uncles, brothers sisters give more. If it is a four seasons type wedding I give 300, heck it cost them well over 400 a couple so least I could do.

d2b Says:
January 12th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
John-
How do you know ahead of time if it’s a 200 or 250?
chicagofinance says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:11 pm

John Says:
January 12th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
I write check at wedding.

JJ: that is the most f—ing brilliant thing I have ever heard!
spam spam bacon spam says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:18 pm

174 Pebbles:

These do it for me…

~VOTED NO on allowing human embryonic stem cell research

~VOTED NO on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines

~Favors Teacher-led prayer in public schools

~Would present scientific facts that support creationism

~Would disallow lawsuits that stop public officials invoking God

~No Fairness Doctrine: no equal time if morally objectionable

~Indicates opposition to church-state separation

~Supports a Constitutional Amendment for school prayer

~Opposes the DC Gun Ban; it’s not just a “collective right”

~Would ease procedures on the purchase and registration of firearms

~Would allow law-abiding citizens to carry concealed firearms

~Would allow young people to get out of Social Security system

~Would allow Personal retirement accounts to allow investing in one’s future

~Votes NO on strengthening the Social Security Lockbox

~Votes YES on reducing tax payments on Social Security benefits

(On replacing coal and oil with alternatives):

~Would Repeal the gas tax (bad)

~anti-environment votes

~opposition to energy independence

~Voted NO on starting implementation of Kyoto Protocol

~Voted NO on raising CAFE standards; incentives for alternative fuels

~Voted NO on prohibiting oil drilling & development in ANWR

~Voted YES on scheduling permitting for new oil refinieries

~Voted NO on keeping moratorium on drilling for oil offshore

~Voted NO on removing oil & gas exploration subsidies

~Voted NO on criminalizing oil cartels like OPEC

(and as one of the “poor” service workers making less than 500K/year, these also are important to me…:

~VOTED YES on making the Bush tax cuts permanent

~VOTED YES on retaining reduced taxes on capital gains & dividends (I get my money from income, so I pay taxes at a higher tax rate than someone whose spending money comes from dividends…that pi**es me off)
Confused In NJ says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:18 pm

Corzine needs to get the NJ people’s attention, as many are very distracted. On July 1, 2008 he should raise the Tolls to $500 per Toll, raise the NJ Income Tax to 50% Flat Tax, and raise the Sales Tax to 25%, including clothing & drugs. That should wake up at least 51%. He can get another 10-20% to wake up by getting the Municipalities to Triple the Property Tax. Nothing short of that will budge the Infamous NJ Complacency & Apathy.
chicagofinance says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:22 pm

Pebbles Says:
January 12th, 2008 at 8:51 pm
what important issues is he off base on? I watched the debate and I thought he brought up some very good points

Pebi: mercedes boy….man you were bringing it 20 years ago….

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcb6p_pebbles-mercedes-boy
Confused In NJ says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:28 pm

Tax Capital Gains & Dividends as Simple Income. Eliminate Tax on Savings Account Interest. Watch the Savings Rate Skyrocket, with simple Tax reporting.
BC Bob says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:31 pm

“This is a sort of upper division economics course..”

Cindy[179],

Not at all. It’s a bunch of crooks, liars, puppets and simpletons who decide that the best/only alternative is to devalue our dollar and hopefully fool the dodo’s by artifically trying to pump up our markets. Well how’s that working? It’s Mr.Market versus the fed. Mr Market says deflation, the fed barks inflation. The fed is attempting to double down. Well, in recent times, just ask LTCM, dot.com, Enron and now the housing bubble how that works. The feds only true function is to create bubbles and busts. PT Barnum is spinning. Oh, one other thing. Mr Market always wins, the fed just doesn’t realize this.

A more obvious example? Just compare your grocery bills, gas receipts and health care costs to previous years. According to our govt, the only item that counts, is flat screen tv’s. Unfortunately, you can’t eat them, cool/heat your house nor pay Dr. bills with them.
gryffindor says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:35 pm

165 John

I haven’t been to one with an elephant (yet) but I read about it online and have heard about them. The elephant is probably for those who feel the need to out-do the horse. I’ve been to several where the groom rides 50 feet on a horse in the parking lot led by the guy who rented them the horse. My family groans if they get invited to a Jain wedding because it means it will be vegetarian with no booze so everyone is going to go home hungry and sober.
Pat says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:35 pm

If you shop around, you can still get a can of Friskies for .33 in PA.
Pat says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:38 pm

And they will take up less room in the bunker than most other complete meals.
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 9:44 pm

BCBob #188 I meant this blog..

This site is “a sort of upper division economics course.” – not the Bretton Woods
material…H#LL -I haven’t had a chance to read all of that already!…yet more understand it.. It has something to do with monetary policy…established during WW2..or after…anyway – I only looked it up on Wiki to see if it was a person!
chicagofinance says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:06 pm

Seems as if we have a lot of deshi on the board……any opinions on this movie?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0433416/
Pat says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:07 pm

If Friskies is .33 to .39 in PA, but .53 to .59 in NJ, does that mean that I only have to put a check for $160 in the wedding envelopes over here, John?
Pat says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:12 pm

The director of that movie is named after one of our cats.

I wonder if she also ran into mirrors as a young one, trying to escape and thinking it was a window. I never could say mirror very well, so the cat’s name is Mira.
Cindy says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:19 pm

#188 BC Bob – Oh man, Your explanation is much better than the one on Wikipedia..
Thank You!
Cindy
Sean says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:31 pm

Speaking of shitheads the fix is on in NJ for Hillary. The shitheads I am speaking of are the entrenched tics that run NJ.

As far as Bretton Woods when countries heavily dependent on export get hammered because the US consumer is out of credit and they come calling to the US treasury all bets are off.

If you think I am nuts then follow this, the FT had an article this week about Moodys. Apparently Moodys is already saying that US government spending threatens the rating US treasury notes losing its AAA rating in 10 years. Reinvestor would probably call it blasphemy and call for the author and all Moody’s and FT employees to spend a nice warm Carribean holiday courtesy of the US Military.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/40f3a2be-b…nclick_check=1
gryffindor says:

January 12, 2008 at 10:47 pm

193 chicagofinance

It’s a decent movie and a pretty accurate look at life for South Asian immigrants who came here in the 1970s. I think for the Indian community, this movie is similar to how Greek/immigrant communities could relate to “My Big Fat Greek Wedding” except “Namesake” is a lot more serious and depressing at times. Kal Penn of Harold and Kumar fame tries to not be Kumar and act serious – it’s still comical because he’s trying too hard. The actors who play the parents are great.
YankeeGal says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:10 pm

I went to a fancy Indian wedding a couple of years ago and the groom rode a horse in the parking lot. I thought it was great. It was a lovely wedding… the Indian women were so beautiful in their colorful clothes – the American women there paled in comparison!!! The food was out of this world too. The bride and groom hated it though and would have rather eloped.
bi says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:25 pm

Nonsense! I see a lot of attractive american white women in the malls, trains, airports and streets.

>… the Indian women were so beautiful in their colorful clothes – the American women there paled in comparison!!!
bi says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:36 pm

Asian market, especially the market in taiwan, hongkong and china, may go up crazy
Monday…

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=anwBs83GbtlA&refer=home
WickedOrange says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:36 pm

I love the big expensive weddings on holiday weekends or on Friday at 5 pm. Come on, just the cut down the guest list or some of the extras. Please have it on a decent weekend so I’m not spending my fourth of July at your wedding in missouri.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:40 pm

Spam 184 Thank you for that list.Except for 2or3 things I would like to look into more
I agree with Paul.You may have just gotten him my vote.Your a lefty & I’m just right of right so lets agree to disagree.
gryffindor says:

January 12, 2008 at 11:46 pm

WickedOrange – I stopped going to weddings on the fourth of July. I have skipped at least 3 so far. I usually have much more interesting things planned since it is prime summer time than to go sit in a reception hall in Albany, NY.
lostinny says:

January 13, 2008 at 12:32 am

If you lived in NYC you would not think Mike Bloomberg was all that wonderful. He is very much out of touch with “common folk”. It is evident in the way he makes and breaks rules to his liking and the way in which he negotiates. And if you hate your schools now, you would hate them even more if he was in charge. He and Klein together couldn’t come up with enough brain power to sit through some of these tests the kids take much less invent the sh!t educational policies they do.
syncmaster says:

January 13, 2008 at 1:18 am

I didn’t care for Namesake. Way too cliched and boring.
me says:

January 13, 2008 at 4:18 am

Just for fun:

Thus, the Socratic Method is a conversation, a discussion, wherein two or more people assist one another in finding the answers to difficult questions.

Why did Socrates proceed in this manner? Despite his many claims of ignorance Socrates understood better than those with whom he spoke that it was not enough simply to “learn” facts, to memorize lessons, or to parrot lectures.

To know truly, to seek wisdom, one must work toward understanding. If the question “what” leads us to see what we do and do not know, then the question “why” leads us to understand our world in a more full and fundamental manner.

If a student tells you that the square on the hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the squares on the two remaining sides taken together, he would, or course, be correct. But if you ask this student “why” this is so, would he be able to give you that answer? If he cannot, then he has memorized an “answer” that, while possessing certain utility, does not of itself provide understanding of causes.

But if he gives any one of a number of reasoned explanations why the right triangle has the property described, then he demonstrates not only his understanding of causes, but also the ability to communicate that understanding to others.

What this board is with regards to learning about topics, is a Socratic method of teaching.

People unsure of abbreviations ask what they are, ideas are challenged and explained, questions are answered (and also challenged at times) and we all learn stuff without realizing how much we are learning.

Neat, huh?
Pat says:

January 13, 2008 at 7:26 am

Or, we’re a bunch of scammers all vying for the same 17 good houses for sale in North Jersey over the next 2 years, and we simply want to keep an eye on the competition. Anybody go see any houses linked here? Fess up. Keep your friends close, but…

Possibly, we’re newsfolk, paid to add ingredients to a pot and see if anything bakes.

On the other hand, maybe we’re intellectually-deprived worker drones who know (or are realizing) that the best way to learn and develop isn’t by spinning your wheels on yet another contrived management development project that will go nowhere and will contribute nothing to the bottom line.

Either way, I do learn quite a bit here.

Several of my big break-throughs at work over the last two years have happened after a particulary rabid brain session on here. Keep cooking those cells.
Clotpoll says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:01 am

Pat (209)-

We are all (well, except bi and ReTard) serious journalists.

I can’t even type that with a straight face. 1,000 years from now, some professor will probably point to this blog as the beginning of the decline of Western civilization.
Salty Steve says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:02 am

…sign of the times?

so i’ve got a couple of rental properties that I list through the same real estate agent and have for many years.

..Just found out yesterday that he got the boot and he is now trying to do his job using that realmartrealty BS? ohh boy, times are definitely changing…
Clotpoll says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:03 am

Pat (209)-

“Several of my big break-throughs at work over the last two years have happened after a particulary rabid brain session on here.”

Most of my big break-throughs have come with the aid of a therapist.
grim says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:05 am

From the New York Times:

Some Fear Economic Stimulus Is Already Too Late

As leaders in Washington turn their attention to efforts to avert a looming downturn, many economists suggest that it may already be too late to change the course of the economy over the first half of the year, if not longer.

With a wave of negative signs gathering force, economists, policy makers and investors are debating just how much the economy could be damaged in 2008. Huge and complex, the American economy has in recent years been aided by a global web of finance so elaborate that no one seems capable of fully comprehending it. That makes it all but impossible to predict how much the economy can be expected to fall before it stabilizes.
…
But the forces menacing the economy, like the unraveling of the real estate market and high oil prices, are too entrenched to be swiftly dispatched by government largess or cheaper credit, some economists say.

“The question is not whether we will have a recession, but how deep and prolonged it will be,” said David Rosenberg, the chief North American economist at Merrill Lynch. “Even if the Fed’s moves are going to work, it will not show up until the later part of 2008 or 2009.”

In the view of many analysts, the economy is now in a downward spiral, with each piece of negative news setting off the next. Falling housing prices have eroded the ability of homeowners to borrow against their property, threatening their ability to spend freely. Concerns about tightening consumer spending have prompted businesses to slow hiring, limiting wage increases and in turn applying the brakes anew to consumer spending.
…
Home prices have dropped by about 7 percent since the peak in 2006, but some experts suggest they could fall by another 15 to 20 percent before hitting bottom.

“There is still a long way to go,” said Nouriel Roubini, an economist at the Stern School of Business at New York University and chairman of the research firm RGE Monitor.
grim says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:07 am

From the APP:

ROBBING YOURSELF

Desperation tends to focus the mind. If you’re worried about coming home one night and finding your furniture on the lawn, you’re probably not giving much thought to what you’ll wear to the company party. You’re probably not giving much thought to retirement, either.

If your retirement date is still decades away, it’s tempting to tap your 401(k) plan for emergency cash. Nearly 20 percent of companies reported an increase in loans and hardship withdrawals from 401(k) plans during the fourth quarter, according to a survey of corporate executives and chief financial officers by Duke University and CFO magazine. The most common reason: to make mortgage payments.
grim says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:10 am

From Bankrate:

New Fannie, Freddie fees boost the cost of mortgages

You know how the auto insurer raises your premium after an accident? Something similar is happening to mortgage fees. They’re getting more expensive for a lot of people.

Many borrowers will be socked with a fee that amounts to $250 for every $100,000 borrowed, just because the mortgage market has gone so bad. Other customers will take bigger hits because their credit scores are lower than 680 and they’re borrowing more than 70 percent of the home’s value.

The fees will be tacked onto mortgages guaranteed by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. The companies say they introduced the new charges to compensate for the risks inherent in guaranteeing mortgages in an era when house prices are declining, delinquencies are rising and mortgage investors are losing money.

“It’s an ugly situation,” says Jim Sahnger, a mortgage consultant for Palm Beach Financial Network in Stuart. “It’s going to impact a lot of people.”

A quarter-point fee will affect just about everyone who gets a conforming mortgage — a home loan for $417,000 or less that’s not considered subprime and is not insured by the Federal Housing Administration. Additional fees will affect borrowers who have credit scores below 680 and who will owe more than 70 percent of a home’s value. Still others apply to anyone buying an investment property or getting a 40-year mortgage. The riskier the loan, the pricier the fees.

“We’ve been talking about risk-based pricing for years. It’s here,” says Bob Walters, chief economist for Quicken Loans.
grim says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:15 am

Fair Lawn Comp Killer.

28 Plaza Road, Fair Lawn NJ

Purchased: 7/15/2005
Purchase Price: $329,000

MLS# 2749479
Original List Price: $329,000
Current Asking: $314,900
grim says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:20 am

Park Ridge Flip-Gone-Flop

46 Ridge Ave, Park Ridge NJ

Purchased: 3/17/2006
Purchase Price: $370,000

MLS# 2716069
Listed: 6/8/2007
OLP: $629,000
Reduced: $624,000
DOM: 165
Expired

MLS# 2733033
Listed: 8/13/2007
OLP: $585,000
Reduced: $519,000
DOM: 54
Expired

MLS# 2740584
Listed: 10/5/2007
OLP: $475,000
Current Asking: $399,000
DOM: 100

Most certainly underwater at this point.

Description of home purchased (pre-remodel):

THIS IS A FIXER UPPER-IDEAL FOR RENOVATION…NEEDS LOTS OF TLC BUT THE POTENTIAL IS THERE.ONE OF THE CHEAPEST HOMES IN PARK RIDGE.50 X 150 FT LOT.. CALL YOUR HANDY CLIENTS/RENOVATORS…GREAT WAY TO GET TO LIVE IN PARK RIDGE…..HOUSE BEING SOLD IN “AS IS ” CONDITION ..BRING YOUR OFFERS

Description post remodel:

THIS HOME WAS COMPLETELY GUTTED AND REDONE IN 2007. NEW KITCHEN WITH MAPLE CABINETS AND GRANITE COUNTERTOPS, OPEN LIVING ROOM AND DINING ROOM AND THREE GOOD SIZE BEDROOMS. NEW HARDWOOD FLOORS, CENTRAL AIR, SIDING, WINDOWS, ROOF AND HOT WATER HEATER AND FORCED HOT AIR SYSTEM. 1/2 BATH CAN EASILY BE MADE INTO A FULL BATH. PROPERTY HAS BEAUTIFUL LANDSCAPING WITH NEW SOD IN FRONT.
Pebbles says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:28 am

#184 – thanks for the list. Im checking the issues you mentioned out against Ron Paul’s statements. This is what I’ve found out so far:

Stem Cell Research:
Paul says he voted no because it’s unconstitutional for the federal government to fund. However, he does state it should be left for the states to decide if they wish to fund it or not. http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/82/no-federal-funding-for-stem-cell-research/

Prayer in Schools – Separation Church and State:
I found this so far http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/239/religious-liberty-thwarted-by-the-supreme-court/ In which he says the federal government should not be passing laws establishing religion or prohibiting the free exercise of religion. I can see how the controversy exists between the two, since those supporting one side or the other each feel their rights are being undermined.

Gun Bans:
Are a violation of your constitutional rights. They don’t stop criminals from getting them (and using them)though, only the “law abiding citizens” as you put it. Here’s his statements
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/second-amendment/

Social Security:
The government has spent all the money contributed for social security it obviously is a system that is continuously abused. I read his stance on social security and it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/social-security/ Why do you think it should continue if the government has done nothing but abuse the system?

Environment:
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/environment/
It doesn’t seem he’s anti-environment to me? I think the issue boils down to the argument of which is the best way to handle the issues. From what I can tell Paul doesn’t agree with corporate subsidies of any kind by the federal government as it leads to wasteful spending and/or corruption.

Tax Cuts:
He wants to completely get rid of income tax all together. That would obviously make it fair for all, however people would have to be willing to give up the welfare/warfare state we are in and live within our means. It would shift the responsibility to the states for providing the social programs needed and/or funding corporate projects if they choose. It would increase state tax as a result. http://www.ronpaul2008.com/issues/debt-and-taxes/ watch the taxation video on the right too.

From what I can tell on the issues it’s a matter of whether you agree a “one size fits all” approach by the federal government works best or should be left to states and their citizens to decide.

If left to the states it also seems that the lobbyist groups would have a much harder time pushing their agenda through at a national level. I’m inclined to think this would be more beneficial to “we the people”.
Pat says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:31 am

Who in their right mind bought a house in 2006 and dumped a hundred grand into it?

Did every loser real estate investor migrate back from Florida to NJ in 2006?
serenity now says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:03 am

Grim
I read this blog every day – an absolute
wealth of information. Have you seen the front page of the Herald News this AM?
I would post it if I knew how.
Good for you.
I will be sending you another donation
today…….keep up the good work!!
Ann says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:11 am

That Park Ridge one is a flip flop gone awry for sure. I know that block. There is something close by that isn’t too nice to have in the neighborhood, that could be the problem.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:12 am

GOV on WNJB 58 on dish talking about buget.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:13 am

Show is called ON THE RECORD if you are looking thru guide.
Ven says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:22 am

Ths census document projects very anemic population growth in new jersey for next 20 years. So where is the need for this crazy construction frenzy?

http://www.census.gov/population/projections/PressTab7.xls
Cindy says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:28 am

Thank you confused (193) for explaining the genesis of the Federal Reserve and Income Tax.(1913)..I ordered “Crash Proof” by Schiff yesterday – looks like “The Creation From Jekyl Island” today.

I looked up “10 Recurring Economic Fallacies” yesterday as well (after a passing reference to a “vainglory popinjay” (Hamilton) and was surprised to learn that Jefferson promoted the Louisianna Purchase
because at that time he envisioned the US as an agrarian society. VS. Hamilton’s vision of a mercantile base like England.)

We have discussions here..San Joaquin Valley…re: farming. We have all watched them tear out orchards to put in new sub divisions and cringed. As we import food, as the world’s population grows, as food prices rise…well, Hamilton doesn’t appear to be so bright.
Thanks again for such a thorough and enlightening explaination.
Cindy says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:33 am

I know..explanation..sorry I didn’t proofread.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:43 am

ANN 220 What is close by.You don’t have to politicly correct here.
lisoosh says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:47 am

#116 Lostinny –
(Somewhat delayed)

I think that as long as everyone in the wedding party is on the same page, it all works out, whether it be simple or OTT. Same with the guests and gifts.

I sold and organized events, including weddings in a previous job and saw a LOT. The Bridezilla stories so pervasive are actually few and far between. The biggest headache and the reason for expanded guest list generally are the parents, who nowadays have only a couple of kids and are WAY too involved. The other biggest headache is when you have two different cultures joining together – imagine a Yemenite son (weddings serve hot and spicy food to the table) marrying a Norwegian daughter (weddings serve fish and lots of it on a buffet). Now picture what their traditionally minded parents have to say about the menu. Or a Brit whose family expects a somewhat formal affair marrying an Israeli where everyone shows up in casual dress, talks through the ceremony and rushes for the food the second it is over. Seen it all.
In my case (my husbands family are originally from Morocco and are, “somewhat primitive” (his words not mine)) when I suggested serving a soup course my MIL wouldn’t speak to me for two days. Turns out soup is what they consider regular peasanty food and is socially unacceptable to serve at a wedding – a huge faux pas and an embarrasment to the family. Who knew?
spam spam bacon spam says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:03 am

[204] mikeinwaiting

Thank you for that list.Except for 2or3 things I would like to look into more
I agree with Paul.You may have just gotten him my vote.Your a lefty & I’m just right of right so lets agree to disagree.

No problem on getting you to vote for him…seriously, that’s what I love about this country. The best thing is, like Pat mentioned above is the Socrates method of EXPLAINING why you think something is “so”… if you can come up with a plausible explanation on WHY you think such-and-such, then that’s all I care about. So I believe, as long as a voter KNOWS why they’re voting for someone based upon ideals/record/values, etc, then go ahead and vote! It’s when voters are led, like sheeple, to vote for someone based on soundbites and hearsay that I get peeved. :)

So, if a voter truly believes a candidate like Ron Paul, Donald Duck or Mahatma Gandhi is the best person to do the job, based upon a truly researched understanding of that candidate, then the candidate deserves the vote.

And so I believe that we do agree :)
Secondary Market says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:03 am

#208
I have the collected dialogs by Plato, your post just made me dust it off and open it up. It was my bible in college.
kettle1 says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:08 am

Spam #175

the term “pig” has nothing to do with the sex(m/f) of the candidate. Pig, refers to the intellectual dishonesty that is her standard stance. Hillary’s political career is based on pandering to the lowest common denominator and telling people what they want to hear.
Clotpoll says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:11 am

lisoosh (227)-

Back in my restaurant days, I sold high-end, three-star weddings for a while. I had similar experiences. Most of the families I worked with were nice folks, but trying to guess consumption/preferences with mixing cultures was just laughable. I’ve probably served trayf to half the observant Jews and Muslims in the NE corridor. A little ham hock in the lentilles du Puy won’t kill you.

I finally came up with a system I called the “shrimp factor”. I’d try to talk the families into having a short cocktail/mixer hour before the ceremony, then put out shrimp. If the guests descended on the shrimp like wolverines, we’d get the cooks busy on banging up some more chow while the ceremony was being performed. If nobody attacked the shrimp, we knew we’d be OK with the amount of food we’d already prepped.

The best wedding I did was the one where we blew out about $8,000 in truffles and Beluga…and the groom had Froot Loops for dinner.
Clotpoll says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:12 am

Grim-

Moderated! For what, I don’t know.
Secondary Market says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:18 am

here’s a nice article of a millionaire that never made more than $11 an hour.
Philly.com

RICHLAND, N.J. – Paul Navone worked in mills in and around Vineland for 62 years, never earning more than $11 an hour. He buys his clothes in thrift shops. He doesn’t own a phone. And he doesn’t have a TV: The last thing he recalls watching was Neil Armstrong walking on the moon in 1969.

Yet through a combination of frugal living and smart, disciplined investing, the 78-year-old retiree from nearby Millville was able to give $1 million to Cumberland County College last month….

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080113_Donor_built_millions_on__11_an_hour.html
Clotpoll says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:18 am

2nd (228)-

We are all prisoners in Bernanke & Paulson’s cave, trying to decipher the shadows.
Clotpoll says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:22 am

2nd (231)-

Wonder how much BRK-A that guy owned. I bet he was in early.
lisoosh says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:25 am

Don’t like Ron Paul. His fiscal statements sound goodish on paper but the fact that his district is one of the biggest recipients of federal money in Texas, one of the biggest money sucking states out there, suggest to me he still has to actually prove that he walks the walk. I think a lot of people just want “different” and he appears to have a funky kind of cult status right now – his followers are just another form of sheeple.
I agree with Clot on is kookiness – he has weird ideas regarding the environment, religion and an obsession with “nutritional supplements”.
I don’t care if he is a doctor, I’ve met some seriously nutty moronic doctors in my time.
Secondary Market says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:26 am

yeah, i’m sure he was early on a lot of things.
Rich In NNJ says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:30 am

Ann / Mike – 220 / 226,

Ridge Rd is a busy cut-through street (and rather long) but the only thing I know on that street is a VFW and a church.

Rich
gary says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:48 am

THANK GOD IT’S FINALLY A BUYERS MARKET!! SURROUNDED BY BARGAINS!!

http://www.realtor.com/realestate/caldwell+boro+twp-nj-07006-1091946242/
gary says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:50 am

OH, AND THE TAXES ARE UNDER $11,000!! WHAT A STEAL! ONLY $4,000 PER MONTH IN PITI AFTER PUTTING DOWN A MEASLY $120,000!
t c m says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:53 am

#175 – spam

“Kettle, first, she’s a woman, not a pig. That’s offensive to many women.”

why would you assume the reference to a pig has anything to do with being a woman?

ALL politicians are called ALL sorts of ugly names ALL the time – i’ve even seen it on this board – surprise surprise –

is she off limits because she’s a woman?
BC Bob says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:57 am

Confused [193], Cindy [224],

Accounts Receivable Tax, Building Permit Tax, CDL license Tax, Cigarette Tax, Corporate Income Tax, Dog License Tax, Federal Income Tax, Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA),Fishing License Tax, Food License Tax, Fuel permit tax, Federal Gasoline Taxes, State Gasoline Taxes, Hunting License Tax, Inheritance Tax, Interest expense, Inventory tax, IRS Interest Charges & IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax), Liquor Tax, Luxury Taxes, Marriage License Tax, Medicare Tax, Property Tax, Real Estate Tax, Service charge taxes, Social Security Tax, And tax on Social Security Benefits, Road usage taxes, Highway taxes, Sales Taxes, Personal Property Taxes, Use Taxes, Recreational Vehicle Tax, School Tax, State Income Tax, Unemployment Tax (SUTA), Telephone federal excise tax, Telephone federal universal service fee tax, Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes, Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax, Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax, Telephone state and local tax, Telephone usage charge tax, Utility Taxes, Vehicle License Registration Tax, Vehicle Sales Tax, Watercraft registration Tax, Well Permit Tax, Workers Compensation Tax. \
BC Bob says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:59 am

Gary [237],

Concentrate on Tony Romo today, f*ck the sellers. GO GINTS!
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:04 am

TCM Kettle The Clinton backers will use gender to defend her but alls fair on their attack.I must say a pretty good place to be
for her.
Just me says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:07 am

Gary ,,,,,just in case you dont know the area is all MOLDY ,,,,yeayyykkkkks and termaites LOVE IT :)
gary says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:18 am

Eff Tony Romo, I hope his phony girlfriend dumps his @ss after he loses.
John says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:19 am

RE Yet through a combination of frugal living and smart, disciplined investing, the 78-year-old retiree from nearby Millville was able to give $1 million to Cumberland County College last month….

WHY? A lower blue collar worker suffers in poverty whole life to give a million to a college so rich kids dads can save some on tuition. My old school does not give a nickle to poor kids, expects EOP, BEOG, TAP and local scholership money to cover them. Allumni money is to build buildings, pay medical and retirement money for teachers and throw parties plus the academic and golf scholerships. Joke is the basket ball team brings in million but most poor blacks kids are getting it mostly covered by federal financial aid anyhow.
gary says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:20 am

Just me,

I guess without the mold and termites, this gem would be $800,000.
Essex says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:30 am

231…..Hilarious. John’s post was right on there btw. Read the Millionaire Next Door….in that book you’ll find a lot of great stories about how the frugal accumulate money. You might also not if you read between the lines…a pathology. A fear of being broke that borders on paranoia and a certain disdain for ‘enjoying’ money…..oh well. Not everyone really knows ‘how’ to spend….Gawd bless em.
Essex says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:32 am

237….gary….I like that place….I would hope it had central air as it looks like a lame window unit popping out of the second floor…but I like the look and feel not to mention the split levels of that place….I think it may be a little overpriced, but it looks nice.
Sean says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:36 am

Hillary was on Meet the Press this morning. Now she wants to freeze interest rates for the next 5 years, and hold those responsible for putting people into bad mortgages.
John says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:41 am

DETROIT (Reuters) – Ford Motor Co’s (F) Chairman Bill Ford on Sunday said the automaker’s plan to return its North American operations to profitability in 2009 is “progressing very well.”

The third-largest U.S. automaker, which lost $12.6 billion in 2006, is in the midst of a multiyear restructuring that aims to return its money-losing North American arm to profit in 2009.

Some nice 13-14% bonds of ford still floating around, worth a 5K roll of dice.
Ann says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:46 am

226 Re house in Park Ridge

I believe there is a group home for troubled teens closeby.
Ann says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:47 am

251 Ann

I know this because I knew someone who lived there before and after the group home came to town.
BC Bob says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:55 am

“Now she wants to freeze interest rates for the next 5 years”

Sean[249],

A total disaster. Just what the markets don’t need now, more government intervention. These policies will be great for those that own gold. However, a nightmare for the stock/bond markets. How did we fare in the early 70’s with Nixon’s wage and price freezes? It was the foundation for the hyper inflation of the mid/late 70’s.

So her platform is protectionism, increase in capital gains tax and now interest rate freezes? If this is the case, why would anybody hold their $ in the US?
3b says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:57 am

#136 Ann: I would say mild concern, but most are still in denial.

I wouls say by mid-March it will be extreme fear.
3b says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:58 am

#132I don’t think we will see a panic anytime soon, but with current climate. That could change very fast.

Makes no sense?
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 12:02 pm

GARY AT 400k that house doesn’t work with the taxes with ins about 975 a month right.
20% down 320 @ 6% 1800 lets go with 2750 a month.AT 100k a yr your just getting by.
Prices have a long way to go to get back in line with incomes & they will by demands of affordability.There will be alot of upsidedown people & folks looking to cash out to retire in trouble.08 will be ecnomic nightmare for main st & wall st.No matter how many times Ben takes out the helicopter
for a ride.Essex you a buy at 400?
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 12:04 pm

251 Thanks Ann I guess that would put off most people as well it should.Its a shame because the kids need help & have to go somewhere but like a nuclear plant not in my back yard.Same old story.
3b says:

January 13, 2008 at 12:05 pm

#88 mike agreed.
Stu says:

January 13, 2008 at 12:18 pm

A lot of Ron Paul supporters here and his fiscal responsibility stance seems legit. Unfortunately, he is just too damn religious for me to consider nor will he get elected playing this platform. I’m sorry, but we just don’t need a Taliban in America.

Just so you are aware of his many policy positions. Pro guns and wants to repeal the semi-automatic weapon ban. Seriously, anti-abortion, against stem cell research and very pro Christian. He believes that religion should play a role in government.

It’s really a shame, because if he wasn’t such a jesus-freak, he’d win solidly. Instead, his religious convictions will scare away most mainstream voters, especially in the blue states.
Rich In NNJ says:

January 13, 2008 at 12:22 pm

Big week for economic data coming up, to name a few
Dec Retail Sales
Dec CPI
Fed Beige Book
Dec Housing Starts & Permits
Jan Consumer Sentiment (Preliminary)
Stu says:

January 13, 2008 at 12:27 pm

I agree with BCbob as usual. RP would make a decent Fed Chairman.
Sybarite says:

January 13, 2008 at 12:31 pm

#259

Yeah, the post earlier summing up his positions cemented my feelings about him. The last thing this country needs is more religion mixing with politics.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 12:32 pm

TO buy or not to buy I say wait for 12 to 24 months.Here is my reasoning(feel free to counter).IF you accept that homes will fall
another20-30% & I do the select few that are a good deal now due to foreclosure or
the desperate seller will make all homes come down to their level.SO in time you will have more homes at these lower levels.
This will give you more choice & more power to deal.As some are impatient to buy their first home don’t jump at first good deal you
percieve. You could do better but not worse as after this blood bath prices will remain flat.Then you will have the pick of the litter at lower price with no reason to lowball.Little risk to wait so why not.
MJ says:

January 13, 2008 at 12:38 pm

grim,

Would you consider letting windows default font size take over. The small fonts here are a pain for my already stressed eyes.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 12:54 pm

STu 259 As I’m pro gun (auto to),Chrsitian,&
abortion is your own business as long as you don’t use taxes to pay for it,I guess I can live with no stem cell research to get good economic policy.BY the way both are gov & schools could use alittle religion.
IF we keep going this route are country is lost we need to get are money sit. in order. So there are trade offs, we don’t have any better options.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 12:56 pm

Ditto 264 even with my reading glasses.
Sybarite says:

January 13, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Government and schools do not need religion. If you want religion in your schools, send your kids to religious schools. It’s your choice to do so.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 1:10 pm

sybarite 262 Maybe we should tell that to the deeply religious men who founded our country.In GOD We Trust,where did I here that.WE are a Judeo/Christian nation they are our founding principales so that is what America is we don’t care what are people practic as religion you can worship satan if you like. But this doesn’t change what we were founded on, nor should it.So why is religion in gov so bad.
Stu says:

January 13, 2008 at 1:12 pm

Call me crazy, but India is really an interesting place. Once you get past the initial shock of the poverty, the culture of acceptance of all beliefs is really amazing. You haven’t seen a true democracy until you’ve visited India. Of course it has its share of corruption and the caste system is alive and well, but the general optimism of the people and the way they go out of the way to make you feel comfortable is refreshing. Tuesday is the Pongol festival and they will be decorating and marching the cows through the streets to thank them for their help. This place is so spiritual as well. We stopped at a shrine at the entrance to a long highway between cities to pray for safe travel. Of course, if you have been on Indian roads, a prayer is probably warranted.

By the way, the people of India appear to not dislike America, but are firmly against George Bush. I read an editorial in the Hindu today that called George the worst president in U.S. history and said his touch turns everything to ashes and dust.

As for the Tata Motors Nano? The majority of Indians are against it for they fear for the environmental destruction an inexpensive car might cause. Most motor bikes here have two or three persons on board and often some have four. It says a lot about a people when their personal safety is trumped by environmental protection.

Well anywho. It’s just about bedtime here in Chennai. One last thing. About the Indian weddings. Indians are very material, even more so than Americans. There appears to be a pattern in which the less wealth one has, the the greater the need to overspend on designer labels or fancy cars. This is sort of akin to Air Jordan sneakers as status symbols in the ghetto. I was at the Spencer Plaza (local mall) today and you ain’t saw nothing like the crowds in the Foot Locker. Of course, you could by a pair of sneakers without the Nike swoosh at a stall next to the mall for $3.

Big Blue will be known as big blew come morning.
chicagofinance says:

January 13, 2008 at 1:17 pm

So why is religion in gov so bad.

mikhail: because it gives license to a lot of unpredictable behavior with dubious objectivity and fairness.

Also bear in mind, our core advantage as a country is the ability to think, adapt, and work hard (societal natural selection as it were). So even though “we are [founded as]a Judeo/Christian nation”, we risk becoming globally irrelevant if we sabotage our strength (the extreme example is Japan, and they will spin into utter mediocrity in real time over the next two decades).
Sybarite says:

January 13, 2008 at 1:17 pm

#268

I’ve heard this argument countless times, and countless times I’ve repeated myself. Our founding fathers a.) were not deeply religious, and b.) took extensive pains to ensure that church and state were separate.

There is no need to affiliate any government entity with any religion. Policy can be determined and implemented independently of any spirituality or religion. There is no need for it; only harm can come of it.
Pat says:

January 13, 2008 at 1:22 pm

The font thing is amazing and weird. I just ran in the dollar store this morning and picked up one of those giant magnifying glasses, and was rigging up a hook for the top of the screen.

I know, Clot. LOD.
Stu says:

January 13, 2008 at 1:23 pm

Mikeinwaiting,

I respect your opinion, but do not agree with it. This country was founded on the backs of people to be able to practice their religion freely. The Judeo/Christian thing is a complete 20th century farce and goes against everything our founding fathers believed in. Once can not be pro-gun and pro-prayer in school at the same time and claim to love the constitution. Perhaps you should reread it sometime. The words ‘Under God’ mean about as much as mixing the roles of government and religion as drinking Dr. Pepper is for curing your ailments.

If you are against abortion, so be it. I admire people who stick to their principles. Just don’t force your opinions on others. If your son wants to say seven Hail Mary’s on the school bus, more power to him. Just ask him to keep it to himself. Got it? That’s what this country was once about. Freedom, liberty and independence. Forced prayer in school does not fit the profile of any of these three.

Now good night.
HEHEHE says:

January 13, 2008 at 1:40 pm

Re Hillary and Interest Rates,

It’s all talk to try and placate the lefty loonie have not morons who vote in the Democratic primaries. It would never play in the real world.

It’s just like the Republicans playing who has the biggest Jesus d*ck.
Confused In NJ says:

January 13, 2008 at 1:43 pm

Democratic Representative Pelosi (CA) & Independent Mayor Bloomberg (NY), are the ideal President/Vice President Team, to lower most taxes. They will eliminate All Taxes, other then Cigarette Tax, by making the Tax on Cigarettes $1Million per pack. Since Anti Smoking Legislation is the dominant part of their Political Careers, we can trust them to get the job done.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 1:50 pm

CIFI 270 I see plenty of this behavior with no religion.

ail: because it gives license to a lot of unpredictable behavior with dubious objectivity and fairness.
In addition how do you tie being able to adapt,work hard etc with having no religion
there is no correlation between the too.
Stu says:

January 13, 2008 at 1:54 pm

Having religion is one thing and I feel it is a good thing. Forcing religion on others is a bad thing.
Confused In NJ says:

January 13, 2008 at 2:02 pm

Research by David Barton, founder of Wallbuilders, Inc. exposes the alleged separation of church and state for the myth that it really is. The words separation of church and state don’t appear in any official government documents authored by the founding fathers. This concept and these particular words were invented by an ACLU attorney named Leo Pfeffer in 1947 in the Supreme Court case of Everson versus Board of Education of Ewing Township. That liberal supreme court imposed it on the nation by a 5 to 4 vote. The ACLU and other anti-Christian organizations and individuals have used it to harass Christians with ever since. It is also used by evolutionists to try to keep a theistic explanation of origins out of the public schools. Many young people today are not aware of the fact that this concept is an ACLU invention, and that it is the extreme opposite of what our founding fathers actually intended. In other words, there is virtually no constitutional support whatsoever for it.
Confused In NJ says:

January 13, 2008 at 2:04 pm

The Pfefferian inversion – Leo Pfeffer’s influence on concept of religious liberty
National Review, May 13, 1988 by Richard Neuhaus
THE PFEFFERIAN INVERSION

LEO PFEFFER, now rich in years and honors, has done more than anyone else to shape the law regarding religion and the state in America. School prayer, religious symbols in the classroom, aid to parochial schools — for forty years he has argued against them all before the Supreme Court and, more often than not, he has won. In a recent memoir, Pfeffer describes himself as an “absolutist for strict separationism.” For him, the “wall of separation” between church and state can never be high enough. He knows that being an absolutist is an extreme position, but his idea of democracy is that absolutists on one side contend agains absolutists on the other, and somehow something like justice emerges from the battle. Looking back, he seems puzzled that the absolutists on “the religious side” just weren’t there when they should have been. Again and again, his absolutism prevailed, as though by default.

Leo Pfeffer is not against religion. He is regularly to be found in synagogue.

But for him religion is an exclusively private thing: what he is against is religion in public. But with the expansion of the modern state “public” and “governmental” are increasingly interchangeable. Therefore it is increasingly possible to construe the separation of church and state as the separation of religion from public life. As the government increasingly absorbs all public space, and a good deal of private space, religion gets squeezed into an ever tighter corner of privacy. In recent years we have witnessed a new assertiveness of religion in public. For example, the Religious Right and the Roman Catholic bishop’s pastoral letters have attracted widespread and often worried attention.

Religion is struggling to get out of the corner in which it has been confined by Court rulings and by habits of mind that were, in large part, crafted by the formidable Leo Pfeffer.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 2:04 pm

STU I thought you went to sleep.280 Agree I just don’t want to change all our credos & institutions like we never heard of it.NO one here is forcing but just because you have some doesn’t mean you can’t govern well
or be smart & productive
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 2:09 pm

Thank you Confused.281-282
Confused In NJ says:

January 13, 2008 at 2:21 pm

284 Mike

Having lived through that period, with Prayer in Schools, and it’s subesequent removal, I am well aware of the differences, and who caused them. In Brooklyn PS-172, in the 1950’s, Mrs Natalie, 6th Grade Teacher even took the Class to Church & Religious Instruction. Of course at that time, Parents believed schools should teach Morality & Civics. I will say Prayer learned, was more relevant in VietNam, than Math or English.
BB says:

January 13, 2008 at 2:33 pm

Ok, this listing on Realtor.com for a 3 bed/1 bath condo in Pompton Plains is either a mistake or income fixed. I know they have some units in The Glens like this, but I always thought there was a waiting list.

New this week!
$103,707
3 Bed, 1 Bath
Pequannock Twp, NJ 07444
MLS ID# 2472821
scribe says:

January 13, 2008 at 2:56 pm

What does “desi” or “deshi” mean to the Indians?

Indian transplanted to the US – an ex-patriate?

… or first generation born in the US?

PS, if any of you guys ever ride an elephant into your wedding, I want an invite! :)
BC Bob says:

January 13, 2008 at 3:06 pm

“WHAT do banks call it when a troubled borrower abandons her home, sending them the keys?”

“Times Topics: Mortgages and the Markets”
“Jingle mail.”

“And what do they call it when an irate borrower abandons his home, yanking electrical outlets from walls, leaving faucets running and otherwise trashing it on the way out?”

“Taking the inside of the house with you.”

“Investors, homeowners and regulators have greeted the new year hoping that the worst of this financial nightmare is over. Some investors may even view Bank of America’s planned bailout of Countrywide Financial last week as a sign that it is safe to wade back into financial services stocks.”

“But while other economic crises over the last decade were resolved relatively quickly and cleanly — the Mexican peso mess, the Russian debt debacle and the dot-com implosion — the unraveling of the great home mortgage boom is significantly more complex. There are infinitely more moving parts to this problem, and it will take far longer to right.”

“As difficult as the rescue prospects are for subprime borrowers, they are even worse for most pay-option A.R.M. borrowers,” said Michael D. Calhoun, president of the Center for Responsible Lending, a consumer advocacy group. “Three-quarters of pay-option borrowers are making the minimum payment based on 2 to 3 percent interest typically. The payment shock is so huge that a refinance is virtually impossible.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/business/13gret.html?pagewanted=1&_r=3&ref=business
Cindy says:

January 13, 2008 at 3:28 pm

Remember I work for a non-union school district..

We have bible study..after school is out..
once a week for those who are interested..
Not taught by a staff member but held in a classroom on campus.

In response to the California budget “crisis”..
Arnold is talking about adding $2 a pack to cigarettes…Possibly doubling our car registration fees..Who knows what he plans to add to gasoline.

But he says “No new taxes.”
He is also currently appearing on TV adds for props. 93,94,95,95 (more machines, casino expansion) for the Indian casinos saying it will bring in billions for the state.
t c m says:

January 13, 2008 at 3:34 pm

Re: font size (#267,269,275)

why don’t you just increase the font size yourself? (on my computer: go to view, then “make text bigger”)

works much better than the reading glasses.
lisoosh says:

January 13, 2008 at 3:39 pm

#232 Clot –

Don’t worry, the truly observant Jews wouldn’t eat anywhere they weren’t sure of. The hotel I worked at was Glatt Kosher (which is kind of kosher on steroids) and we would still have the Chabadnik guests wandering into the kitchen and asking to see the labels to make sure the right rabbi had signed off on it.

Best wedding food story – One family had theirs at the King David in Jerusalem. 20 guests, $400 a head tasting menu. I really liked that idea.
lisoosh says:

January 13, 2008 at 3:56 pm

Mike –

I spent 5 years living in a country where religion and government were tied, and it ain’t pretty, even if you are in the majority faith.

Each sect starts vying for power and trying to force it’s way of doing things on to the people. Next thing you know, one group in power starts trying to define who is a….(Christian lets say) and makes life for the others pretty miserable. Never mind other faiths.

And it seems the people who want religion and government to mix tend to be in the current majority religion. What happens if it becomes say Catholic, or Muslim or Hindu – do you still want religion in the government and schools. Want pork banned???

It’s not the way to go.

And my family is Jewish – to Jews there is no such thing as the Judeo-Christian anything, the two faiths are quite different. I don’t want my child forced to recite Christian prayers in school, nor do I want my kids to be proselytized to by their teachers. And it is not acceptable to say that “they are free not to participate” because they are kids, not adults able to leave or choose alternatives if a situation is not comfortable to them. Nor am I willing to be a second class citizen just because I do not share the majority faith, no matter what it will be.

If I want my kids to have an extensive religious education, then it is my prerogative and responsibility, and that should be the case for everyone in this nation. Nobody is prevented from teaching their kids morals and/or faith, just as it’s nobody’s business what other people teach their kids.
Cindy says:

January 13, 2008 at 4:06 pm

Did everyone see Grim’s second post for today?…He’s a star!
Kudos from California, Grim!
Confused In NJ says:

January 13, 2008 at 4:12 pm

A good reason for supporting School Vouchers is Freedom of Religion. When the State requires it’s citizens to support Secular Public Education, it is Defacto limiting their choice, Economically. Each Citizen of a town ought to be able to choose a School, and have their taxes directed to that School. That should be regardless of how you raise your Children, be it Religious, Secular, or Whatever. If you want to send your children to a Religious School, be it Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, Muslem, Buddist, Wiccan, etc., you should be able to, without Financial Penalty. That would be a Fair Separation.
Confused In NJ says:

January 13, 2008 at 4:31 pm

The Myth of a Judeo-Christian Tradition

The following article from New Dawn Magazine No.23 Feb-March 1994.

This is an age in which news has been superseded by propaganda, and education by brain-washing and indoctrination. From the advertising used to sell poor quality goods, to the classes in schools designed to make children into conditioned robots of the State, the art of persuasion has displaced the simple virtue of truth.

Since the end of the Second World War we have been bombarded from all sides with references to the Western world’s “Judeo-Christian religion,” and “our Judeo-Christian heritage.” We are told by both church leaders and scholars that our society is based on a supposed “Judeo-Christian tradition”.

The notion of “Judeo-Christian religion” is an unquestioned — almost sacrosanct — part of both secular and church thinking. American Christian leader Prof. Franklin H. Littel, a vocal supporter of the Zionist state, frankly declared that “to be Christian is to be Jewish,” and that consequently it was the duty of a Christian to put support for the “land of Israel” above all else. Pat Boon, the North American singer and evangelist, said there are two kinds of Judaism, one Orthodox and the other Christian.

Yet such a decidedly Christian Zionist outlook is to say the least, wildly simplistic and profoundly ahistorical. As the astute Jewish writer, Joshua J. Adler, points out, “The differences between Christianity and Judaism are much more than merely believing in whether the messiah already appeared or is still expected, as some like to say.”

The comments of Jewish author Mr. S. Levin may well explain the Christian’s need for the Judeo-Christian myth. Writing in the Israeli journal Biblical Polemics, Levin concludes: “‘After all, we worship the same God’, the Christian always says to the Jew and the Jew never to the Christian. The Jew knows that he does not worship the Christ-God but the Christian orphan needs to worship the God of Israel and so, his standard gambit rolls easily and thoughtlessly from his lips. It is a strictly unilateral affirmation, limited to making a claim on the God of Israel but never invoked with reference to other gods. A Christian never confronts a Moslem or a Hindu with ‘After all, we worship the same God’.”

Back in 1992 both Newsweek magazine and the Israeli Jerusalem Post newspaper simultaneously printed extensive articles scrutinising the roots of the sacrosanct Judeo-Christian honeymoon!

The statement heading the Newsweek article read: “Politicians appeal to a Judeo-Christian tradition, but religious scholars say it no longer exists.” The Jerusalem Post article’s pull quote announced: “Antisemitism is a direct result of the Church’s teachings, which Christians perhaps need to re-examine.”

“For scholars of American religion,” Newsweek states, “the idea of a single Judeo-Christian tradition is a made-in-America myth that many of them no longer regard as valid.” It quotes eminent Talmudic scholar Jacob Neusner: “Theologically and historically, there is no such thing as the Judeo-Christian tradition. It’s a secular myth favoured by people who are not really believers themselves.”

Newsweek cites authorities who indicate that “the idea of a common Judeo-Christian tradition first surfaced at the end of the 19th century but did not gain popular support until the 1940s, as part of an American reaction to Nazism . . ,” and concludes that, “Since then, both Jewish and Christian scholars have come to recognize that — geopolitics apart — Judaism and Christianity are different, even rival religions.”

The Jerusalem Post accused the Christian Church of being responsible for the Holocaust. The French Jewish scholar Jules Isaac was quoted as saying: “Without centuries of Christian catechism, preaching, and vituperation, the Hitlerian teachings, propaganda and vituperation would not have been possible.”

“The problem,” concludes the Jerusalem Post, “is not, as some assert, that certain Christian leaders deviated from Christian teachings and behaved in an un-Christian manner; it is the teachings themselves that are bent.”

Joshua Jehouda, a prominent French Jewish leader, observed in the late 1950s: “The current expression ‘Judaeo-Christian’ is an error which has altered the course of universal history by the confusion it has sown in men’s minds, if by it one is meant to understand the Jewish origin of Christianity . . . If the term ‘Judaeo-Christian’ does point to a common origin, there is no doubt that it is a most dangerous idea. It is based on a ‘contradictio in abjecto’ which has set the path of history on the wrong track. It links in one breath two ideas which are completely irreconcileable, it seeks to demonstrate that there is no difference between day and night or hot and cold or black and white, and thus introduces a fatal element of confusion to a basis on which some, nevertheless, are endeavouring to construct a civilisation.” (l’Antisemitisme Miroir du Monde pp. 135-6).

What is the Truth?
Is there then any truth in this term, “Judeo-Christian”? Is Christianity derived from Judaism? Does Christianity have anything in common with Judaism?

Reviewing the last two thousand years of Western Christian history there is really no evidence of a Judeo-Christian tradition and this has not escaped the attention of honest Christian and Jewish commentators.

The Jewish scholar Dr. Joseph Klausner in his book Jesus of Nazareth expressed the Judaic viewpoint that “there was something contrary to the world outlook of Israel” in Christ’s teachings, “a new teaching so irreconcilable with the spirit of Judaism, ” containing “within it the germs from which there could and must develop in course of time a non-Jewish and even anti-Jewish teaching.”

Dr. Klausner quotes the outstanding Christian theologian, Adolf Harnack, who in his last work rejected the hypothesis of the Jewish origin of Christ’s doctrine: “Virtually every word He taught is made to be of permanent and universal humanitarian interest. The Messianic features are abolished entirely, and virtually no importance is attached to Judaism in its capacity of Jesus’ environment.”

Gershon Mamlak, an award-winning Jewish Zionist intellectual, recently claimed that the “Jesus tradition” is essentially the ultimate extension of ancient Greek Hellenism and is in direct conflict to Judaism’s “role as the Chosen people”.

Dr. Mamlak, writing in the Theodor Herzl Foundation’s magazine of Jewish thought, Midstream, maintains that the prevailing theory that Christianity originated in the spiritual realm of Judaism “is anchored in a twofold misconception: 1) the uniqueness of Judaism is confined to its monotheistic God-concept; 2) the ‘parting of the ways’ between the Jesus coterie and Judaism is seen as the result of the former’s adaptation of the doctrines of Christology.”

The first misconception means: “When the affinity of the Jesus coterie with Judaism is evaluated by common faith in the One, severed from the believer’s duty to execute the Law of the One and to acknowledge the Chosen Nation of Israel as His instrument-faith in the One becomes anti-Judaism par excellence!”

In Gershon Mamlak’s view, “The conflict between Judaism and the Jesus tradition goes beyond the confines of theology. [The Jesus tradition] was the cosmopolitan renunciation of the national phenomenon in general and extreme hostility to Israel’s idea of a Chosen Nation as the divine instrument for the perfection of the world.”

Evidently the concept of a common Judeo-Christian tradition has more to do with post 1945 politics and a certain amount of ‘public relations’ than it does with historical and Biblical reality. Never the less a number of modern Christian polemicists have managed to rest certain New Testament verses in the drive to give a Scriptural basis to their argument.

Confusion over the origin of Rabbinic Judaism and Christianity is the root of the Judeo-Christian myth.

Biblical scholars Robert and Mary Coote clearly show in their book Power, Politics and the Making of the Bible that neither is Christianity a patched up Judaism, nor is Rabbinic Judaism automatically synonymous with the religion of Moses and the old Hebrews.

The Cootes’ illustrate the religious climate in Judea two millennia ago: “The cults, practices, and scriptures of both groups, rabbis and bishops, differed from those of the temple; thus we reserve the terms Jew, Jewish, and Judaism for the rabbis and those under their rule and use Judean, contrary to custom, for the common source of Judaism and Christianity….”

“Despite the ostensible merging of Judean and Jew even in certain New Testament passages and by the rabbis who became rulers of Palestine in the third century and continued to use Hebrew and Aramaic more than Greek, the roots of Christianity were not Jewish. Christianity did not derive from the Judaism of the pharisees, but emerged like Judaism from the wider Judean milieu of the first century. Both Christians and Jews stemmed from pre-70 Judean-ism as heirs of groups that were to take on the role of primary guardians or interpreters of scripture as they developed on parallel tracks in relation to each other.” (Power, Politics, and the Making of the Bible).

The few New Testament ‘proof texts’ utilised by Christian Zionists and secular proponents of the modern Judeo-Christian myth are the product of poor translation. Messianic Jewish writer Malcolm Lowe in his paper “Who Are the Ioudaioi?” concludes, like Robert and Mary Coote, that the Greek word “Ioudaioi” in the New Testament should be translated as “Judeans”, rather than the more usual “Jews”. The Israeli scholar David Stern also came to the same conclusion when translating the Jewish New Testament.

Few Christians are aware that the translators of Scripture often mistranslated the word “Jew” from such words as “Ioudaioi” (meaning from, or being of: as a geographic area, Judean). The word Judean, mistranslated as “Jew” in the New Testament, never possessed a valid religious connotation, but was simply used to identify members of the native population of the geographic area known as Judea.

Also it is important to understand that in the Scriptures, the terms “Israel”, “Judah” and “Jew” are not synonymous, nor is the House of Israel synonymous with the House of Judah. The course of history is widely divergent for the peoples properly classified under each of these titles. Accordingly, the authoritative 1980 Jewish Almanac says, “Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a Jew or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew.”

A writer for The Dearborn Independent, published in Michigan back in 1922, summarised the problem thus: “The pulpit has also the mission of liberating the Church from the error that Judah and Israel are synonymous. The reading of the Scriptures which confuse the tribe of Judah with Israel, and which interpret every mention of Israel as signifying the Jews, is at the root of more than one-half the confusion and division traceable in Christian doctrinal statements.”

Jesus Christ and the Pharisees
The New Testament Gospels reveal an intense conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees, one of the two principal Judean religious sects (see Matthew chapter 3, verse 7; Matthew chapter 5, verse 20; Matthew chapter 23, verses 13-15, 23-29; Mark chapter 8, verse 15; Luke chapter 11, verse 39). Much of this controversy was centred on what was later to become the foundation and highest authority of Judaism, the Talmud. In the time of Jesus Christ, this bore the name of “The Tradition of the Elders” (see Matthew chapter 15, verses 1-9).

The Judean historian Josephus wrote: “What I would now explain is this, that the Pharisees have delivered to the people a great many observances by succession from their fathers, which are not written in the laws of Moses . . .”

While the Pharisees recognized the laws of Moses, they also claimed that there was a great body of oral tradition which was of at least equal authority with the written Law – and many claimed that the Tradition was of greater authority. By their tradition, they undertook to explain and elaborate upon the Law. This was the “Tradition of the Elders”, to which the name of Talmud was later given. It had its beginning in Babylon, during the Babylon captivity of the people of Judah, where it developed in the form of the commentaries of various rabbis, undertaking to explain and apply the Law. This was the foundation of Rabbinic Judaism.

This Judaism was very different from the religion of the ancient Israelites. The late Rabbi Stephen S. Wise, who was the Chief Rabbi of the United States, expressed this conclusively when he said: “The return from Babylon, and the adoption of the Babylonian Talmud, marks the end of Hebrewism, and the beginning of Judaism.” The Jewish Encyclopedia tells us that the Talmud is actually “the product of the Palestinian and Babylonian schools” and is generally referred to as “the Babylonian Talmud”.

Dr. Boaz Cohen in Everyman’s Talmud states the Talmud is the work of “numerous Jewish scholars over a period of some 700 years, roughly speaking, between 200 [B.C.] and 500 [A.D.].”

Rabbi Louis Finkelstein in Volume 1 of The Pharisees, the Sociological Background of their Faith says, “Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes of name, inevitable adaption of custom, and adjustment of Law, the spirit of the ancient Pharisee survives unaltered.”

According to The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. VIII, (1942) p.474 : “The Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees. Their leading ideas and methods found expression in a literature of enormous extent, of which a very great deal is still in existence. The Talmud is the largest and most important single member of that literature.”

Moshe Menuhim explains that the Babylonian Talmud embodied all the laws and legends, all the history and ‘science,’ all the theology and folklore, of all the past ages in Jewish life — a monumental work of consolidation. In the Talmud, Jewish scholarship and idealism found their exclusive outlet and preoccupation all through the ages, all the way up to the era of Enlightenment. It became the principal guide to life and object of study, and it gave Judaism unity, cohesion and resilience throughout the dark ages.

The Talmud, more than any other literature, so defined Judaism that Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser admitted, “Judaism is not the religion of the Bible.” (Judaism and the Christian Predicament, 1966, p.159) It is the Talmud that guides the life and spirit of the Jewish people.

“The Talmud is to this day the circulating heart’s blood of the Jewish religion. Whatever laws, customs, or ceremonies we [Jews] observe — whether we are Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or merely spasmodic sentimentalists — we follow the Talmud. It is our common law.” (A History of the Jews, Solomon Grayzel).

Both Jewish and Christian scholars agree that it was Jesus Christ’s flagrant rejection of this “Tradition of the Elders” and his open confrontation with the powerful Pharisees that created the climate that led to his death. Historically, Christian thinkers argued that the Talmud was directly responsible for the rejection of Christ.

In their view these “traditions” blinded the eyes of the people to a true understanding of the prophecies which related to the coming of the Messiah.

Defining Christianity
If, as we have seen, the Pharisees and the Talmud forever defined Judaism, then most certainly the writings of the post-Apostolic Christian church leaders help us in understanding the relationship of the early Christian faith to both paganism and Judaism.

Justin Martyr (c100-165 A.D.) was indeed the earliest and most significant of these post-Apostolic church apologists. Following in the theological footsteps of Paul, who taught that the Gospel was the fulfilment of Moses and the Prophets, Justin argued that the Gospel was in the mind of God from the beginning and it was given to Abraham and the righteous Patriarches long before Judaism existed. This is in keeping with the Gospel teaching that the Hebrew Scriptures find their ‘flowering’ in the life, purpose, and accomplishments of Jesus the Christ.

Hence, the Christian faithful have traditionally understood the Old Testament through the New Testament.

In his Dialogue with Trypho Justin seeks to persuade a Jew of the truth of Christianity. Unlike the other apologists, he focuses mainly on the nature and meaning of Christ. Christ was the Logos who inspired the Greek philosophers and is present in all men as the Logos spermatikos (seminal reason or word). Through Him, the best of the philosophers were able to produce significant works of theology and philosophy. Their ideas could serve as beacons of truth just as much as could the inspired writings of the Old Testament Hebrews. Those who lived according to the Logos, even before Christ, were Christians. In the Old Testament it was the Logos who was revealed as God, because the transcendent Heavenly Father could not thus speak to man.

Justin wrote in Apology:
“We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word [or reason] of whom all mankind partakes. Those who lived reasonably [with the Word] are Christians, even though they have been called atheists. For example: among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus and men like them; among the barbarians [non-Greeks], Abraham…and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious.”

Christianity, seen through Justin Martyr’s writings, takes on a ‘cosmic’ breadth:

“I both boast and strive with all my strength to be found a Christian…Whatever things were rightly said by any man, belong to us Christians. For next to God we worship and love the Word, who is from the unbegotten and ineffable God, since He also became man for our sakes, that by sharing in our sufferings He might also bring us healing. For all those writers were able to see reality darkly, through the seed of the implanted Word within them.” (2 Apology).

Jesus Christ had come, argued Justin, to restore true religion and to denounce the hypocrisy of the religion of Judea. For that crime Jesus had been crucified. Consequently, Christianity is not a form of Judaism or simply Jewish prophecies fulfilled but ‘the true philosophy’.

Justin’s Christianity was eventually reducible to three major principles: (1) worship of God, mostly through private prayer and communication of being; (2) belief in an after-life with rewards and punishments for one’s actions in this world; and (3) the importance of leading a virtuous life in imitation of Christ and in obedience to His commandments.

The Romans killed Justin for his religion. He was ever known as Justin Martyr, and not as St. Justin. His works defined Christianity as a culminating religion and a “universal” faith incorporating the essential and perennial truth of the pre-Christian religious tradition. Christianity was the restatement of a very old doctrine encompassing the Old Testament and the grand verities of the ancients. Two centuries later Augustine again clarified the Christian faith in these terms when he wrote:

“That which is now called the Christian religion existed among the ancients, and never did not exist from the planting of the human race until Christ came in the flesh, at which time the true religion which already existed began to be called Christianity.”

Justin not only showed that Christ is the culmination and completion of all the partial knowledge of truth in Greek philosophy, He is also the culmination of the history of ancient Israel. According to Justin Jesus Christ is Israel and because of Him the church now bears the name of Israel.

This is to say, therefore, that the central message of the Old Testament has been fulfilled in the New Testament. It must be understood that this was the position of Christendom for at least 1900 years. It was the position, not only of Justin Martyr, but of such Stalwart saints as Irenaeus and Hippolytus; a position embraced by Martin Luther and John Calvin, the two towering figures of the Protestant Reformation.

Here we have not only a clear separation of Christianity and Judaism, but a direct challenge to Judaism’s core dogma of a Chosen Nation. A point which has not been lost by Jewish writers.

We read in Zionist author Uri Zimmer’s Torah-Judaism and the State of Israel: “The Jewish people, Rabbi Judah Halevy (the famous medieval poet and philosopher) explains in his ‘Kuzari’, constitutes a separate entity, a species unique in Creation, differing from nations in the same manner as man differs from the beast or the beast from the plant…although Jews are physically similar to all other men, yet they are endowed with a ‘second soul’ that renders them a separate species.”

Fraud
Traditionally Jewish scholars, as we have shown, were highly critical of the Judeo-Christian myth. There are many others, under the influence of modernism and secular Zionism, who do see some advantage in it.

Rabbi Martin Siegel, reflecting a Messianic zeal, was quoted in the 18 January 1972 edition of New York Magazine as declaring: “I am devoting my lecture in this seminar to a discussion of the possibility that we are now entering a Jewish century, a time when the spirit of the community, the non-ideological blend of the emotional and rational and the resistance to categories and forms will emerge through the forces of anti-nationalism to provide us with a new kind of society. I call this process the Judaization of Christianity because Christianity will be the vehicle through which this society becomes Jewish.”

While historic Christianity has looked to the eventual triumph of the Kingdom of God throughout the earth, according to the Zionist leaders Talmudic Judaism is zealous in the “drive to perfect man’s earthly habitat” (Gershon Mamlak, Midstream, Jan., 1989, p.31).

Dr. Mamlak admits that “many Jews have filled the ranks of the various revolutionary movements” (op. cit., p.32) in order to satisfy this urge. [But who can agree on the terms of the social contract? Were the Zionist Irgun and Stern gangs who terrorised and massacred the Palestinian Arabs in the campaign to establish the Israeli state, shining role models for young Jews? What about the immorality of “the end justifies the means”?]

Rabbi Michael Higger, renowned Talmudic scholar, in his book The Jewish Utopia, discusses the reshaping of the world into a Jewish Eden. The victory of this Utopia is inexorably tied to the coming of the Jewish Messiah.

“And the Messianic Age,” argues the eloquent Jewish Zionist author Leon Simon, “means for the Jew not merely the establishment of peace on earth and good will to men, but the universal recognition of the Jew and his God. . . For Judaism has no message of salvation for the individual soul, as Christianity has; all its ideas are bound up with the existence of the Jewish nation.” (Studies in Jewish Nationalism).

Driven by political agendas compromising Jews and compromising Christians began, only in this century, to disseminate the theretofore unheard of doctrine that Christianity originated from Judaism and that the two share a common worldview.

Dr. Gordon Ginn, an American Christian scholar, made a very valid point when he noted: “It is most interesting, indeed, that rabbis as well as Jewish scholars such as Mamlak and White agree with orthodox, historical Christianity that ‘Judeo-Christian’ is a contradiction in terms, even though that truth is yet to be discovered by contemporary evangelical and fundamentalist Christians” (Smyrna, August, 1993).

Christianity and Judaism are two distinct religious inheritances, despite all the superficial attempts by modern scholars to manufacture a naive “Judeo-Christianity.” The very term “Judeo-Christian” is a mischievous misnomer without historical or Scriptural validity.

The religions of the world are the product of progressive revelation to a diverse humanity, separately expressing as they do the great metaphysical realities of life. Attempts to distort or eliminate these unique, ancient and divinely ordained patterns, through non-divine syncretism and politically-motivated concoctions, is both anti-traditional and truly diabolical.

Appeals to a nonexistent historical unity and calls for a banal, modernist theology do nothing for religious understanding and mutual respect. “Judeo-Christianity” should be seen for what it is – another secular twentieth century fraud, manufactured for narrow political ends, that is supremely disrespectful to all true believers.

Any fundamental unity that does exist between world religions cannot be appreciated by ignorant and secular scholarship, but only through knowledge of the great primordial and universal truths.

As Luc Benoist aptly wrote, “Our age is seeking a universal understanding which men of vision can already foresee and which is the longing of all great souls. There is ample evidence that the world’s economic problems can be solved without the different religions having to abandon their unique spiritual insights; after all, brotherly agreement does not prevent the individual growth of each member of the family, bodily separate, but united in heart and mind.” (The Esoteric Path).
Clotpoll says:

January 13, 2008 at 6:11 pm

Pat (275)-

That’s LOD, Geriatric Division.
Clotpoll says:

January 13, 2008 at 6:12 pm

CIndy (293)-

Please don’t egg on grim. He’s a shameless attention wh@re. :)
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 6:15 pm

CLOT You taking a break from the game.
BC Bob says:

January 13, 2008 at 6:19 pm

Where’s Jessica?
Clotpoll says:

January 13, 2008 at 6:23 pm

lisoosh (291)-

I don’t get the whole Kosher thing (my wife is a non-observant, Reform Jew). Is it true that Kosher restaurants have to bake their plates from time to time?

I’d like to see somebody bake a Limoges plate. Bad outcome.
Clotpoll says:

January 13, 2008 at 6:24 pm

mike (297)-

I’m wondering what kind of odds I could’ve gotten in Vegas that Eli would make it deeper into the playoffs than his brother.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 6:34 pm

Clot 300 Better than gold!
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 6:36 pm

CLOT Makers Mark Manhattens for the game!
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 6:55 pm

JOE JACKSON classic on the Taco Bell spot.
Essex you have that in your bag of tricks.
One More Time.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 7:55 pm

http://www.ontheissues.org/Candidates.htm
Please all go to this site to check out positions, not just the cherry picked ones.
An informed voter is the key to democracy.
BC Bob says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:11 pm

GARY, G-A-R-Y!!!

GINTS in the NFC Championship. All you can eat eggplant in JC!!

Romo has all winter to let Jessica rub his a##. One thing for sure, it is certainly sore.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:20 pm

Video Joe Jackson One More Time
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6xqtVoD-R8
syncmaster says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:24 pm

lisoosh #292, well said. I agree completely!
spam spam bacon spam says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:27 pm

[231]kettle1

the term “pig” has nothing to do with the sex(m/f) of the candidate. Pig, refers to the intellectual dishonesty that is her standard stance.

“Pig”, when describing a woman is offensive as it “degrades”….I guess I must be hyper aware of it, so it just stuck out like it’s big and bold in 42pt font when it was written…

I agree, there are many words used to describe candidates, but I must admit I’m getting pretty tired of Hillary bashing that’s done by degrading her because she is female…we all know there is a certain male (and female) population subset that continually degrades her when discussing her…as if they are AFRAID of her.

My point it, if a candidate is disagreeable because of policy (which on second look at your original post, thats where u were coming from-so from that standpoint I was wrong) then debate on policy, not personal hangups.

(She does not have my vote, if you are curious)
spam spam bacon spam says:

January 13, 2008 at 8:42 pm

(OOPS!) Forgot to close my italic tag :)
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:13 pm

nSYC 307 As you should. You are in the minority just like ilsoosh but I’m in the majority so I have a dif. view.
Lets all remember how this works majority rule.That doesn’t mean we tell you what to do & think just that we are the largest voting block & we vote for are way of thinking.It is not possible to make all groups happy that is why we vote, whomever is in the majority decides.The notion that the majority has to submit to the will of others is PC bull.
I do not want tell others what to think,worship,or do, just lets get this out without the suger the minority doesn’t set policy for the majority this is not how it works here.So you can be politicly active for change or leave.
Upset don’t like that than vote if you win I will either accept it ,leave or fight.These are our choices mine & yours. To expect the majority in any society to submit to the will of the minority invites a revolution.
spam spam bacon spam says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:19 pm

[310] MIW

Curious…what “majority” are you talking about which you describe as “being a part of”…
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:31 pm

SPAM White,Christen,of western european decent is there a larger group you know of in U.S. Not that we all agree on anything.
Spam don’t get me wrong I just like to keep it real, so I may come off like an angry white male but I’m not angry at all.Just not up for the PC suger coating.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 9:55 pm

Spam I’m also a boomer.
spam spam bacon spam says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:04 pm

[218] Pebbles

Stem Cell Research:
Paul says he voted no because it’s unconstitutional for the federal government to fund. However, he does state it should be left for the states to decide if they wish to fund it or not.

—
It’s too big and comnplicated to leave to states. Some states are trying, but that’s like having each state to come up with their own space exploration program. When you need help researching, you can’t just go down to the local “Eddie’s space parts and Liquors Cheaper” joint.

We share discoveries with high elevation telescopes because we share the cost burden to operate them. You would not ask an individual state to “own” their own telescope, would you?

There is no constitutional prohibition against funding SSR. He says that as he believes he cannot “morally” spend money from taxpayers who disagree with SSR because of their own religious beliefs…

If he would be so careful to not spend that money, how did he vote:

when the federal govt funded the research that resulted in the development of the internet? And more recently of the http protocol? Or how about the research into signal processing that led to multiband signal intelligence and to cheap long-distance calling? How about the scientific research that led to air-traffic control modeling? How about the scientific research that has led to techniques to stop epidemics in their tracks?

RP cannot cherry pick when the Constitution is applicable and when it is not….
Confused In NJ says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:05 pm

The primary problem I have with Hillary Clinton running for President is her affilliation with Bill Clinton. I don’t believe America should be ruled by an Ultra Rich Dynasty’s, be they a Bush Dynasty’s, or a Clinton Dynasty’s. It set’s a dangerous precedence to have 12 years of Bush (Father & Son) coupled with potentially 16 years of Clinton (Husband & Wife). That’s America ruled for 28 years by two Families, assuming Clinton’s (daughter), and JEB Bush (brother/son) don’t tack on another 16 years. If America is going to be ruled by Defacto Royalty, then change President to King and the Senate & House of Representatives, to the House of Lords & House of Commons.
Sybarite says:

January 13, 2008 at 10:15 pm

#310

I’m sorry Mike, but democracy does not equal absolute majority rule. We determine and elect our leaders based on the majority. It does not mean that the majority can rule as they please.

Since the middle-class outnumbers the wealthy, does that give us the right to redistribute their wealth, simply because we are the majority?

Democracy’s success hinges on freedom of speech, which includes religion and cultural traditions. By having a government endorse one religion over another, they are suppressing the rights of another group.

Again, I must ask; why is religion needed in government?
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:04 pm

Sybarite 316 I do not endorse religion as much as culture.Religion is important as a moral compass between right & wrong would you not agree.As far as culture when people come to a new country they should try to fit in to the culture as my grands did not make it change.This is part of becoming an American it is called assimilation that meanes new comers change to fit in with their new country the country doesn’t change to fit every or any new group.
I never said it is needed but it might be good to have some people who are guided by a sense of right & wrong in DC.So I said the gov could use alittle religion.Some here come from countries that are monoreligious so are afraid but this is the US we do not stand for that here.I will defend your rights as well as mine.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:12 pm

Confused No more Clintons or Bushes I agree.
Sybarite says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:33 pm

#317

mikeinwaiting Says:
January 13th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
“Sybarite 316 I do not endorse religion as much as culture.Religion is important as a moral compass between right & wrong would you not agree.As far as culture when people come to a new country they should try to fit in to the culture as my grands did not make it change.This is part of becoming an American it is called assimilation that meanes new comers change to fit in with their new country the country doesn’t change to fit every or any new group.
I never said it is needed but it might be good to have some people who are guided by a sense of right & wrong in DC.So I said the gov could use alittle religion.Some here come from countries that are monoreligious so are afraid but this is the US we do not stand for that here.I will defend your rights as well as mine.”

Actually, I do not think religion is important as a moral compass. Morality existed before religion, and would continue to exist without it. Morality is a function of man being a social animal. Morality is required in social networks, or else it all breaks down. This is actually evident in the study of primate behavior. And yes, humans are primates.

As far as cultural surrendering, or “assimilation” as you put it. I think you are wrong there again. America is a melting pot. All of the cultures which come here enrich the country.
syncmaster says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:53 pm

#310

Lets all remember how this works majority rule.

Mike, what you’re describing is a mobocracy. We are not a mobocracy. We are a Republic.

If you don’t understand the difference, I suggest you read up.

You’ll understand if I politely ignore your invitation for me to leave. I think I’ll stay. F*** you very much.
lisoosh says:

January 13, 2008 at 11:59 pm

Mike, you’ve made a couple of statements which I’d like to respond to.

“SPAM White,Christen,of western european decent is there a larger group you know of in U.S. Not that we all agree on anything.”

That doesn’t actually make you the majority. Maybe part of a very large voting block, but not the majority. Not all western european whites are Christian (I assume you mean Evangelical) and not all Christians are white. Being a large block does not give that block the right to dominate all others.

“Sybarite 316 I do not endorse religion as much as culture.Religion is important as a moral compass between right & wrong would you not agree.As far as culture when people come to a new country they should try to fit in to the culture as my grands did not make it change.”

I agree with Sybarite here. Morality does not require religion and being religious does not necessarily make a person moral. We have all (now) seen people being blown up in the name of religion. I’ve had ancestors persecuted and killed in the name of religion. I’ve seen great morality and kindness in people who don’t believe in G-d, and arrogance, pride and cruelty in people who claim a place in heaven all by invoking the name of their diety.

As for people coming here and assimilation – if you add beets to potato soup you get pink potatoes.
Assimilation doesn’t mean that people coming become clones of those already here. Each and every group that has come here – including yours, has changed the face and culture of the nation.

People don’t like change, and so they resist it and make excuses and place blame wherever they can. But change comes anyway.
lisoosh says:

January 14, 2008 at 12:04 am

Clot – RE baking plates.

High heat is part of the koshering process, for instance a stove will be koshered using a blowtorch. Very common when koshering for Passover.

I can’t say I remember that the hotel did that, but it is possible.

If you ever have a feeding a kosher person issue (for whatever reason), clear glass plates are kosher for everything. Or use paper.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 14, 2008 at 12:06 am

Sybarite 319 Primates evolved & used religion to set up standards of right & wrong (morality).
A melting pot yes,the problem is new comers don’t want to melt in they hold on to their old ways.This takes time I know
but they must at least learn english to be able to meld.My grands were not given ballots in native tongue or driver tests.You adopt the language of your new home as soon as able.I should not have to learn spanish to function as an American.By the way I at one time was able to as I worked in West NY in high school in a store.
So I leaned enough to sell our products.
I have nothing against any group just learn english & try to fit in your new home.Enrich yes, but remember you came here
this is our home don’t try to make it what you left,we like it this way,just add some new stuff we like that to.
Sybarite says:

January 14, 2008 at 12:29 am

#323

Again, I have to respectfully diagree. Religion was not created to establish a moral framework. In reality, religions started out as means of explaining that which was not easily explainable by then-current technology and knowledge. It then slowly branched out and led to all of the permutations that we know religion to be today.

I do agree, however, that immigrants should attempt to learn the native language here, and not vice versa.
mikeinwaiting says:

January 14, 2008 at 12:49 am

lisoosh 321 Roman Catholic by the way.I Just will not throw Paul under the bus for being religious.He could believe in the the great & good shoe for all I care we need to get are monetary policy in order before we
screw are kids future & our country.
There is good & bad in all I agree & no I don’t seek to dominate anyone but I then again will vote to mantain what I feel is my
best interest & I want my kids to say a prayer & salute the flag.So I will vote that
way as most Americans do.That is my right as an American.You can vote for whatever you like I have no problem with that.Sorry if you guys don’t like my position but that
is where I stand.
syncmaster says:

January 14, 2008 at 1:27 am

There’s nothing special or illuminating about this article. What’s interesting about it is that it’s dated 1/9/2008… the author seems hopelessly behind the curve.

Why You Should Be Terrified
By Richard Gibbons
January 9, 2008

…

It appears that there is a housing bubble, and teaser interest rates are finally starting to expire.

It appears that way, does it? ROFLMAO.
Confused In NJ says:

January 14, 2008 at 8:03 am

Actually, they replaced the Melting Pot, with Multi Cultural Diversity. An experiment in cohabitation of all the World’s immutable Biases, in one Geographic Location. It works too, same people hate each other, though colocated.
Jill says:

January 14, 2008 at 11:40 am

Re: weddings.

In my experience, the success of the marriage is inversely proportional to the amount spent on the wedding. The more lavish the wedding, the more the bride is concerned with “being a princess on her special day” and the less able she is to deal with having to clean the pee off the toilet after the honeymoon.

I’ve been invited to weddings where I hardly knew the couple and nothing on their registry was less than $200.

The way I see it, you invite people to your wedding because you want them to share in your happy day. If you want people to “cover their plate” (a disgusting concept that means people have to GUESS what you’re spending), then charge them admission and cut the crap.

A gift is a gift. Dwelling on how much a person spent is missing the point. If I want to give you a pair of champagne flutes from Tiffany’s instead of cash, accept it graciously. If I can’t afford a $200 gift because I hardly know you, don’t go bitching about how cheap I am.

I finally stopped going to weddings if I couldn’t afford an expensive gift because I just didn’t want to deal with the greed. You want to cover the cost of your wedding? Have an inexpensive wedding. I was married in a $300 off-the-rack dress in my mother’s living room with 16 people in attendance for brunch. It was 1986 and my mother spent $800 for the food, champagne, and wait service. We had a party in our apartment for our friends when we got back from our honeymoon. I think the food and booze for that (we had it catered) ran us around $200.

It is now over 21 years later and we are still just as married as someone who had a big wedding and more married than many. The party is just one day. The marriage is a lifetime.

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