NJ Home Price Tracker – January 2010

The New Jersey Home Price Index Tracker has been updated to include:
* November S&P Case Shiller (Aggregate, Tiered, Condo)

(click to enlarge)

(click to enlarge)

FHFA (Formerly known as the OFHEO) Home Price Index

HPI (Includes Refis) – Peaked in Q1 2007 and is down 12.42% from peak

Purchase Only – Peaked in Q2 2006 and is down 11.88% from peak

S&P Case Shiller NY Metro Commutable Area Home Price Index

Low Tier (Under $284606) – Peaked in October 2006 and is down 23.3% from peak

Mid Tier ($284606 – $417722) – Peaked in September 2006 and is down 20.6% from peak

High Tier (Over $417722) – Peaked in June 2006 and is down 16.2% from peak

Aggregate (Overall Market) – Peaked in June 2006 and is down 19.7% from peak

Condo-Only Index – Peaked in February 2006 and is down 14.4% from peak

NY Metro Area Aggregate Year over Year Changes

Nov 08 -8.74%
Dec 08 -9.22%
Jan 09 -9.73%
Feb 09 -10.32%
Mar 09 -11.66%
Apr 09 -12.36%
May 09 -11.87%
Jun 09 -11.49%
Jul 09 -10.09%
Aug 09 -9.30%
Sep 09 -8.53%
Oct -7.75%
Nov -7.12%

This entry was posted in Economics, New Jersey Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

403 Responses to NJ Home Price Tracker – January 2010

  1. safeashouses says:


  2. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:


  3. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:


    Try any yet? :)


  4. safeashouses says:

    Looks like Jamil’s anti-acorn hero is in a bit of trouble.


  5. chicagofinance says:

    Sing with me!

    Go, Greased Lightnin’
    You’re burnin’ up the quarter mile
    Greased Lightnin’, go Greased Lightnin’
    Go Greased Lightnin’
    You are supreme
    The chicks’ll cream
    For Greased Lightnin’

  6. safeashouses says:

    Are the yoy decreases slowing down, or were they just artificially slowed with the tax credit and fed buying mbs? I guess we will find out in a few months if the Fed really stops buying mbs and the tax credit expires.

  7. chicagofinance says:

    one more time

    6.chicagofinance says:
    January 26, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    Sing with me!

    Go, Greased Lightnin’
    You’re burnin’ up the quarter mile
    Greased Lightnin’, go Greased Lightnin’
    Go Greased Lightnin’
    You are supreme
    The chicks’ll cream
    For Greased Lightnin’


  8. 4 SL

    Friday night will be the big night. I’ll probably have some kind of reaction with the meds so it’s best to do that when I don’t have to work the next day. :)

  9. chicagofinance says:

    One more time….

    6.chicagofinance says:
    January 26, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    Sing with me!

    Go, Greased Lightnin’
    You’re burnin’ up the quarter mile
    Greased Lightnin’, go Greased Lightnin’
    Go Greased Lightnin’
    You are supreme
    The chicks’ll cream
    For Greased Lightnin’


  10. NJGator says:

    Today in Montclair…

    BaristaKids asks local moms for suggestions on affordable birthday parties.

    “We had a disco dance party for Sadie’s 8th birthday. It was in the private room at Church St. Kitchen, and I had Sadie’s hip hop teacher from Sharron Miller come and lead the dancing. She played games (think freeze dance, etc.), and even taught a mini routine to the tunes I had made for the occasion. The CD was also the party favor, along with disco ball necklaces which the girls got when they arrived. I also baked a cake in the shape of a disco ball. It was an awesome party.
    –Aviva, mom of three in Montclair

    “I am literally walking out the door to buy the supplies to MAKE the invitations to Marcella’s 7th birthday party. We’re having it at home, but only because she wants a fashion theme and you can’t really get that at Little Gym, etc. She and I are still working out the party details, but she has a vision of what the invitations are going to look like, and they will require some “very good glue” according to her. I think she is planning to make the envelopes, too. For her age, the party preparations are just as exciting as the party itself.”
    –Tammy, mom of three


  11. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    lost, sounds good! Can’t wait to hear reviews! :)


  12. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    Tues homework assignment:

    “Why I Don’t Want to Live in Bergen County”

    Few Summers ago… talking to neighbor behind us… she (has 5 kids, one is a ‘tween girl.)

    Telling us how these days, all the invitees to the birthday party get together and chip in to buy the birthday girl a Coach bag.

    …inwardly think to self how grateful I am that I have a son. Smile sweetly. Remind husband as we hurry away from neighbor to start looking outside of Bergen County.


  13. danzud says:

    Hey Frank,

    Barnes and Noble cutting and running in Hoboken. Must be all the fires!!!!!


  14. NJGator says:

    And only $28,567 in taxes, Barbara!`

  15. Barbara says:

    whats really sad is that tween girls like Coach bags. Aren’t they for old ladies?

  16. Barbara says:

    Gator, I know and its like 250,000 over priced. But I dig the vibe. That expansive asphalt needs some help

  17. Stu says:

    Looking at the recent CS data, it appears that the rate of change in the the pace of the decline of sales prices is actually slowing which could be a harbinger of larger price drops to come. For example, the rate of change from June to July was 1.4. From July to August it was .79. Then .77, .78, and finally .59. If this trend continues, price reductions will be continuing for a long time and at a much greater pace than inflation. Add in the potential end of the stimulus and you would have to be smoking crack to consider purchasing right now at any price that was not a significant low ball.

  18. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    Barb, 17

    All they think of is Coach=$$$=status.

    That’s the sad thing.


  19. morpheus says:

    I wondered who was going to post that.

    I am sure that jamil and other “rock ribbed” conservatives (I am not taking a shot at Re 101) will find a way to defend this guy.

    bugging a senator’s office….WTF what was he thinking? OK. . several million points for style and panache, but 0 for stupidity.

    sounds like he was buying into his own hype or had a sense of entitlement that he was above the law.

    kind of amusing to see this guy get busted.

  20. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    Stu, 19

    …Yet I keep looking… I had stopped for probably a year. Started looking again recently and just get disgusted.

    We were in the Bernards Twp neighborhood… saw an open house. Went there just for shits+giggles..

    DOM 1 asking price 1.25M.

    Owner bought the place in ’92 for 455K.

    I guess my anger stems from working hard, wanting a nice place with a good school, enough land to grow fruit trees and vegetables/herbs and maybe keep chickens without being an hour away from a store (and of course, at some reasonable price…)

    Asking too much, I know… Eff me. *sulks away*


  21. Stu says:


    I hear ya. We are driving our local realtor crazy. She knows where we stand, but we still continue to look regardless of the unlikelihood of finding what we want at a fair price. When you look at the comps and you see one or two that went for lowball prices, it makes you question how this could have happened. I only hope that we can be one of those outliers.

  22. Qwerty says:

    “Sadie’s hip hop teacher”???

  23. Barbara says:

    stilllooking I get that, but whats so sad is that Coach = frumpy suburban wannabes, wish the kids were cooler, I can think of better brands to get pretentious with.

  24. lisoosh says:

    Hear ya sista:

    “wanting a nice place with a good school, enough land to grow fruit trees and vegetables/herbs and maybe keep chickens without being an hour away from a store (and of course, at some reasonable price…)”

  25. Barbara says:

    22. sl

    hearing this.

  26. chicagofinance says:

    Regarding having different social expectations than others: what tees me off is the idea that any deviance from the norm is considered a type of affront, when no offense is intended. I can’t decide what is more pathetic, the intention itself, or the reaction from failing to conform.


  27. Firestormik says:

    Stu, unfortunately it’s so much true. After moving from Linen to Edison I’ve been always wondering why I have to stay 5 minutes in the traffic just pass one light. Seems like some habits like to save on fuel never go away. Sastry, question for you, as far as I know a bigger car is always has a priority in India. I’m still trying to figure a way how to drive safe here

    Stu says:
    January 26, 2010 at 8:16 pm

    If you’ve been to an Indian city, you would know it’s not a death trap as the traffic never allows you to go much faster than 5mph.


  28. Firestormik says:

    moving from Linden even

  29. Shore Guy says:

    ” hip hop teacher”




  30. Barbara says:

    Yep, I think my wants at a 500k price are pretty damned modest. And its not like I’m stuck in 1975, I’m talking about prices from 8 years ago. I’m just not believing that in 8 years these wants have become 300,000 more expensive.

  31. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    Barb and Lis,

    Thanks for hearing me… It’s a frustration, to be sure…


    early a.m. meeting tomorrow…(gawd how I hate them…) off to bed…


  32. lisoosh says:

    #15 Barbara. That IS nice.
    Don’t get the mini golf in the back yard though.

  33. cobbler says:

    fire [29]
    From my recent experience of being chauffeured for a month on rural roads in India the principal dangers to the car occupant in an imported car come either from colliding head-on with the large truck (the roads are totally full of them, going at 15 mph or so – but if your driver does 60, it gets scary), or from hitting a cow (the peasants will lynch you). OTOH, the Tata, etc. cars driven by the locals tend to generally fall apart at highway speeds – in fact, I saw an editorial in a national paper explaining the extreme dangers of driving at >70 kph (~45 mph).

    On the topic of the blog, the RE in “good” areas of Mumbai is at close to Manhattan prices (and large part of the price changes hands as a cash-stuffed envelope).

  34. grim says:

    From the WSJ:

    Housing Momentum Builds but Perils Persist

    There’s new evidence the housing market is healing after a four-year slump, but the danger of further price drops remains amid persistent job-market weakness, according to The Wall Street Journal’s quarterly housing survey.

    Inventories of homes listed for sale are down sharply across the U.S. and have reached very low levels in some areas, including Boston and Sacramento, Calif. The decrease in supplies has sparked a return of bidding wars on lower-end properties in some neighborhoods, but the national picture is mixed.

    Fundamental market drivers look relatively strong in the metropolitan areas of Minneapolis, Raleigh, N.C., Dallas, Houston and Washington, D.C., where mortgage-default rates are below the national average and job markets are likely to outperform the U.S. as a whole, according to Moody’s Economy.com.

    But other areas look decidedly less hopeful. Miami, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Orlando, Jacksonville and Tampa, Fla., had the highest rates of defaulting borrowers among the 28 markets surveyed. The weakest job-market prospects this year were found in Tampa, Jacksonville, Las Vegas, Atlanta, Detroit and Phoenix, according to Moody’s Economy.com.

    A four-bedroom home in Woodbridge, Va., about 27 miles southwest of Washington, recently attracted 12 offers and sold for $217,000, far above the $175,900 asking price set by the foreclosing lender, said James Nellis II, an agent at RE/MAX Allegiance. The home had sold for $350,000 just two years earlier.

    One reason for such bidding wars is that many buyers can qualify for tax credits of as much as $8,000 if they agree on a home purchase by April 30. Meanwhile, economists say mortgage rates—currently around 5% for standard 30-year fixed-rate loans—are likely to be at least modestly higher later this year as the Federal Reserve withdraws support for the market.

  35. grim says:

    From the Star Ledger:

    Gov. Chris Christie warns N.J. companies of tax hike to cover unemployment fund

    New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie says he’ll let a tax hike on businesses take effect if the federal government doesn’t help the state replenish the unemployment fund.

    Employers could see an increase of up to $1,000 per employee in their unemployment tax starting July 1 unless the fund is infused with state or federal money.

    The fund helps pay unemployment benefits.

    The increase is triggered by a growing shortfall in the Unemployment Insurance Fund. Business taxes are increased by law when the fund’s balance dips below a certain level as measured every March. Christie says the fund will be $1.6 billion in debt by March.

    “That’s not my choice, what I would like to have happen,” Christie said today. “But on the other hand, we can’t continue to run that kind of debt.”

  36. grim says:

    If you need something a little stronger than coffee to fuel your violent rages today:

    Corzine gives staffers parting-gift appointments

    Governor Corzine made a raft of last-minute appointments, placing dozens of Democratic loyalists on state boards that in some cases will allow them to maintain and boost their public pensions.

    They include some of his top administrators – department heads with six-figure salaries – such as former Education Commissioner Lucille Davy, whose new post on the state Board of Pharmacy will allow her to become vested in the pension system.

    Some of the appointees got seats on such esoteric bodies as the licensing boards for veterinarians, marriage therapists and providers of contact lenses.

    As a lawyer and math teacher, Davy does not have deep expertise in pharmacy. She was appointed as a so-called “public member.” This board, and most others, must have two public members.

  37. grim says:

    I’ll represent the public for $140 grand a year.

    Hell, I’ll do it for half.

    Lookie there, just saved the state a fortune in salaries.

    David Socolow, of the NJ Department of Labor, appointed to the marriage and family therapy board? Huh? For $140 grand a year too?

    I might just do the massage examiner position for free.

  38. grim says:

    From Bloomberg:

    Fed May Take Chance End to Debt Purchases Won’t Hurt Housing

    The Federal Reserve may take a chance the housing market can stage a comeback without its support by announcing today it will stick to the plan to end a $1.25 trillion program of mortgage-debt purchases in March.

    Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke and other policy makers meet after the sixth straight monthly gain in home prices in November added to signs housing is stabilizing. With financial markets rebounding, the central bank has said it plans to end emergency aid to bond dealers and money markets by Feb. 1.

  39. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    I really need to get into the state pension game. Im looking for one of the no show or once a month positions.

    “Because many job opportunities within State, County and Municipal governments require a competitive testing or application process, applying for these jobs can be confusing. The Civil Service Commission wants to help make your transition into public employment as smooth as possible. We have provided this step-by-step guide to the job announcement and application process to aid in your understanding.”

    Nepotism is the name of the game so these government monkeys can get their weekly bananas. Ill have to start on the ground level.

    How about this one.

    Issue Date: 01/26/2010 Closing Date: 02/09/2010
    Jurisdiction: MONMOUTH COUNTY Salary: $85,000.00 – $99,000.00 Per Year
    Num. of Positions: 1 Workweek: 35 Hours per week
    Application Fee: $15.00

  40. renter says:

    What is the thought process here…. “I’m going to get that $8,000 tax credit even if I have to spend $50,000 to do it?” Someone please stand up and make sense.

    “A four-bedroom home in Woodbridge, Va., about 27 miles southwest of Washington, recently attracted 12 offers and sold for $217,000, far above the $175,900 asking price set by the foreclosing lender, said James Nellis II, an agent at RE/MAX Allegiance. The home had sold for $350,000 just two years earlier.”

  41. grim says:

    What is the thought process here…. “I’m going to get that $8,000 tax credit even if I have to spend $50,000 to do it?” Someone please stand up and make sense.

    Makes as much sense as someone taking out a big mortgage for the benefit of claiming the interest deduction.

  42. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    I am filling out the application. I am going to be the best government worker in the history of the state.

    Keep paying your taxes folks. Ill make sure they goto good use as I create policies for the distribution of tax payer money to crackheads and whores.

  43. grim says:

    Don’t drag prostitutes into this, at least they are honest in the way they make their living, unlike politicians.

  44. Somebody wake me up when they schedule Corslime’s execution.

  45. Things are not getting better until you see stuff like Corslime is pulling punishable by death.

  46. Are there no-show, patronage jobs in oblivion?

  47. ruggles says:

    42 and 43 – what says the house was worth the 175k the bank was asking? maybe it was 200k or 225k. and yes I know the 8k adds 8k+ to the sellers pocket, just as bidding wars also tend to dump more funds into the sellers pocket. but we really don’t know how inflated that closed price was.

  48. Essex says:

    LAS VEGAS – A real estate broker says a Las Vegas mansion that belonged to Nicolas Cage before it was foreclosed on sold for nearly $5 million its first day on the market.
    Records show Cage owes millions of dollars to the IRS in unpaid taxes. The Oscar-winning actor has said he’s had to sell numerous assets because of his finances.
    Kenneth Lowman, owner of Luxury Homes of Las Vegas, says the 14,300-square-foot, bank-owned home sold for close to the asking price of $4.95 million. Lowman says the sale is expected to close on Wednesday.
    The buyer wasn’t identified.
    Cage sued his former business manager in October for $20 million, saying the man’s advice led him toward ruin.
    A finance director in Middleton, R.I., said this month that Cage owed roughly $128,000 in unpaid taxes on a mansion there.

  49. Oregon commits state suicide yesterday.

    Phil Knight:

    “Forty-six years ago, when Mark Hatfield was governor, I started a small business in Oregon. In our first year, sales totaled $8,000. I am proud that it eventually became a major employer in the state.

    It has been my hope that other entrepreneurs would similarly pursue their dreams in Oregon.

    They won’t.

    Measures 66 and 67 should be labeled Oregon’s Assisted Suicide Law II.

    They will allow us to watch a state slowly killing itself.

    They are anti-business, anti-success, anti-inspirational, anti-humanitarian, and most ironically, in the long run, they will deprive the state of tax revenue, not increase it.

    The current state tax codes are all of those things as well. Measures 66 and 67 just take it up and over the top.

    The state of Washington has no income tax. Its unemployment rate is 20 percent lower than Oregon’s — before 66 and 67. These measures would give Oregon the highest income tax rates in the country. ”


  50. Nomad says:

    Does anyone really think the government will not renew the housing subsidies? I personally do not think the housing market can stand on its own feet yet and by fall, this little flurry of activity will give way to price decreases.

  51. ruggles says:

    52 Nomad – I think it will get extended. Yun sort of said they would push for it in Atlantic City even though they promised not to–was it last month? It won’t cost us anything tho as anyone who was going to buy a house in the next two years already has and everyone else can’t get a loan.

  52. ruggles says:

    This is what I was thinking of. Think it was posted here before. Not directly saying they’re going to push for the extension but Yun predicts another surge before we almost fall off another cliff–perhaps setting the stage?


  53. grim says:

    The realtors said they had to sign in blood stating they wouldn’t come back to the table or an extension.

    What the idiot politicians didn’t realize is thy the realtors already sold their souls, thus the blood signature was meaningless.

  54. Veto That says:

    15 – Barb,
    isnt that Cameron’s house from Ferris Bueller’s day off?


  55. Cindy says:


    Thanks for posting @51 Clot. Oregon has no sales tax. So if you work, own a business, or own property – you pay for everything. They have driven business owners to Washington – just like CA drives them to Nevada.

    They killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

    Why not a sales tax so everyone shares in the pain? They tried to get one passed the whole time I lived there. The fear was that if a sales tax went through, they wouldn’t reduce the other taxes. So….now look where they are.

  56. grim says:

    The Cameron house (Ferrari garage) is actually for sale.

    370 Beech in Highland Park, IL.


  57. Nomad (52)-

    I think it’s always safe to assume that the gubmint will always take the dumbest choice available, so by that measure, all the various subsidies will stay.

    From a practical standpoint, the housing market is dead and rotting, so they may also feel that extending the charade that it’s still viable is in their best interests.

  58. Veto That says:

    “What is the thought process here…. “I’m going to get that $8,000 tax credit even if I have to spend $50,000 to do it?”

    Did you ever ask a 6 yr old if he would rather have two quarters or one dollar.
    They’ll take the two quarters every time. Why?
    Two is more than one they’ll reason.
    No different with some of these buyers and the tax credit.
    Thats my guess.

  59. grim says:

    That Montclair house is more of a ranchy thing. Not nearly as cool as the cantilevered steel design.

    For those interested, I viewed the Kinnelon cantilevered cliff house over the weekend.

    It has an impossible, no make that impassible driveway.

    Summer house only, unless you want to put in a gondola to get up to it.

  60. Veto That says:

    Would someone please stress-test NJ real estate prices at 30% unemployment and let us know what would happen? Thanks

  61. veto (60)-

    It’s hard to believe that some of the buyers out there now made it past eighth grade.

    When I work with buyers, I routinely use my first interview to try talking them into renting. Not only do I believe it to be a better financial play at the moment, but the prospect’s acceptance/resistance to my advice gives me a preview of how they’ll behave once we’re deeper into the process.

    Invariably, my buyers over the past six months fully reject the rental option. I won’t even go into the idiocy they employ to justify their decisions. Among those I’m working with now are included two lawyers and a top-level security software programmer, so it’s not like my client base is Joe6.

    I’ve always believed that you can judge the quality of a market by the quality of its participants. By that standard, it just can’t get much worse. We have a gazillion idiot sellers offset by another gazillion idiot buyers. Doesn’t make for fun times.

  62. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    One of these people have to be right:

    “Mother of All Linkfests on the Outlook for the Period Ahead
    For the past month, Charles Kirk, a full-time investor and publisher of The Kirk Report (a favorite of mine since my first book, The New Laws of the Stock Market Jungle, was published nearly six years ago) has been collecting posts regarding “what others think are themes that we’re likely to see play out in the year ahead.”

    While Charles admits that most of these will probably miss the mark (“they always do,” he adds), I agee with him that you may find it of interest to see what others think we should be watching out for in 2010. Here is a sampling of what you might call the Mother of All Linkfests on the Outlook for the Period Ahead:

    Mother of All Linkfests on the Outlook for the Period Ahead
    For the past month, Charles Kirk, a full-time investor and publisher of The Kirk Report (a favorite of mine since my first book, The New Laws of the Stock Market Jungle, was published nearly six years ago) has been collecting posts regarding “what others think are themes that we’re likely to see play out in the year ahead.”


  63. House Whine says:

    63- I never thought that being highly educated necessarily translated to making good financial decisions. It doesn’t surprise me at all that attorneys who make a lot of money think they shouldn’t be renting. Maybe there is still some kind of stigma attached to being a renter, vs. a homeowner. What I personally lack in financial savvy I make up for in common sense and not really caring about my image. Plus, a lot of this stuff comes down to basic math skills. I may not know the ins and outs of contracts, but I do know how to figure out %’s and how to add and subtract.

  64. Pat says:

    Friends of mine, academics, recently moved to MD from NW after he finally secured gubmit work. Tried to convince them to wait to buy, but no dice. The deciding factor was the temporary rental they had here while they sold their NW house – it was below par for them.

    So maybe they need to see upgraded rentals prior to deciding.

    Or, if you want to make a sale, put clients in a garbage rental and they’ll buy the first thing that comes along!!!

  65. I know plenty of renters who have been waiting who are now throwing in the towel and will buy pretty soon.

    Most can no longer handle the “stigma” of renting.

    Some can no longer stomach the wait.

    Both are good signs that as soon as the current wave of demand (almost entirely tax credit-fueled) subsides, the bottom will fall out.

    The market always shakes out those with the unsteady hand.

  66. Mr Hyde says:


    Did you ever ask a 6 yr old if he would rather have two quarters or one dollar.
    They’ll take the two quarters every time. Why?
    Two is more than one they’ll reason.
    No different with some of these buyers and the tax credit.
    Thats my guess.

    Thanks now i need to start my day with a drink :(

    on a happier note, got to play with a nice 9mm beretta yesterday. liked it, was smooth. Does tend to misfire a little more often though if one limp wrists it. Smoother then the glock though

  67. Veto That says:

    “got to play with a nice 9mm beretta yesterday.”

    Hyde, dont shoot anyone today. You’ll want to watch the housing bust from outside the klink.

  68. toyne says:

    #23 How long will it take, geez it should have happened already.

  69. Compared to past busts, this one is moving at warp speed.

  70. It’s also moving at warp speed, when you consider that the gubmint is doing everything possible to put a bid up under the market.

  71. renter says:

    Renting is a stigma. Once in a while I talk to an old college friend, they invariably ask if we’re “still renting”. I say yes and they start consoling me as if I told them I had cancer.

  72. If you’re going 9 mm, why not just take a Tec-9 fully automatic?

    So simple, even I could do it:


  73. frank says:

    “What the idiot politicians didn’t realize is thy the realtors already sold their souls, thus the blood signature was meaningless.”

    Are you saying that Realtors are blood sucking devils?

  74. Safeashouses says:

    #11 gator

    Are you sure they’re only adding fluoride to the water?

    If those are cheap parties, explains why people aren’t screaming over there 15k tax bills

  75. I would rather get back the 100K I’ve lost in equity so far on my house- and be living in a rental- than the social approval of a bunch of shit-for-brains “friends”.

  76. Hey Frank, aren’t Wednesdays your day to self-mutilate?

  77. frank says:

    “Housing Momentum Builds but Perils Persist”

    Buy a house now, before prices shoot up, just like in 2005.

  78. John says:

    Here us a job that is available I would love for someone on this site to get, imagine the gossip – VP/Assistant General Auditor Mortgage Sourcing and Servicing for Freddie Mac

  79. toyne says:

    #53 and everyone else can’t get a loan.

    Sure they can, FHA is giving out loans like free candy.

  80. frank says:

    Is Wednesday the day that you sell an unsuspecting buyer overpriced REO in Newark?

  81. House Whine says:

    73- ‘Nuff said. Now you know why most folks who are in highly regarded professional fields do not want to rent. Maybe this will start to change, but I doubt it.

  82. leftwing says:

    “The fear was that if a sales tax went through, they wouldn’t reduce the other taxes. So….now look where they are.”

    I looked for references to Reagan/Stockman’s concept of ‘zeroing out’ programs. The thought, mostly confirmed, is that unless shut down totally these programs (or taxes) grow after being cut and you do in fact end up worse off. The solution for Oregon would be to zero out – ideally constitutionally or requiring a supermajority to reimpose – the income tax and move to a sales tax based system.

    In searching I re-discovered ‘The Education of David Stockman’ from 1981. Some topical items to make you smile (or wince):

    “When you have powerful underlying demographic and economic forces at work, federal intervention efforts designed to reverse the tide turn out to have rather anemic effect,”

    ‘the Reagan Administration would be faced with a series of federal deficits without precedent in peacetime — ranging from $82 billion in 1982 to $116 billion in 1984. Even Stockman blinked. If those were the numbers included in President Reagan’s first budget message, the following month, the financial markets that Stockman sought to reassure would instead be panicked’

    ‘When Congress voted its bail-out financing to rescue Chrysler from bankruptcy, Stockman was the only Michigan representative to oppose it’

    I won’t take up more bandwith here, but it is an interesting (re)read for anyone who was politically aware in that era particularly with the current backdrop.


  83. scribe, The Princess of Paramus says:



    what about your old stomping ground in Colonia – estates section?

    $600,000 – $700,000 will now buy a good house on an acre

  84. gary says:

    You guys are talking hand guns and I’m thinking, f*ck the pea shooter, give me this:


  85. toyne says:

    #79 O.2 increase, but an Oct # revised downwards. Yeah that sounds like momentum to me.

  86. Mr Hyde says:


    No worries my man. Be Prepared. the motto to live by.

    While perhaps annoyed with the general stupidity, I’m not actually pissed at anyone. The worst fate you can give these fools is to leave them to the consequences of their actions. They will never quite understand why they are broke and you arent.


    Its not about the # of rounds, but where you place them. an auto pistol is next to useless.

  87. leftwing says:

    ‘I’ve always believed that you can judge the quality of a market by the quality of its participants. By that standard, it just can’t get much worse. We have a gazillion idiot sellers offset by another gazillion idiot buyers. Doesn’t make for fun times.’

    Except…..like shorting overvalued equities in the financial markets, look for a trade that supports your view.

    Plus….stupid people make for wildly inefficient market which means even more money to be made.

    So…all agreed, people are dumb and the market is still overvalued. How do I make gobs of cash off that now?

  88. freedy says:

    whats wrong with renting? having been a home
    owner in NJ, glad to be out of it. Much cheaper ,no matter what they say. Of course
    you get the stigma,,, and not being in Bergen County,,

  89. Fiddy Cents on the Dollar says:

    Frontline last night on Consumer Credit —

    Featured an interview with the man who “invented” Free Checking (with all it’s associated nuisance fees). The demographic they were targeting was called the Unbankables, those who couldn’t get credit cards thru normal channels. Just link your Free Checking account to this here plastic card and you never have to write a check again.

    The kicker was the Overdraft Protection. He calls it a Courtesy Service (not a fee, so it is unregulated and can be any amount). One lady bought a Starbucks or some such, went into overdraft…..and they added $35 for the Courtesy of not declining her coffee at the point of purchase. That was a $42 cup of Java.

    The Banker says to the camera, with a straight face “The consumer has to keep track of their checking account balance. It was never the banks job to keep track of your balance.”

  90. All "H-Train" Hype says:

    Freedy (90):

    My cousins live in Bergen County and have the stigma of being 150k underwater on the value of their house.

    Be a proud renter my friend.

  91. freedy says:

    h train: i know , have the friends to.

    don’t worry they tell me ,its BC, coming
    back, besides , we have the best schools.

  92. All "H-Train" Hype says:

    Now this is a police vehicle…Will be needed when the SHTF.


  93. lisoosh says:

    Barbara – further to your recent obervation, the new houses I’m seeing go on the market in this area were either bought in 2008 (THAT didn’t last long) and/or are priced well above recent comps. Some are priced above comparable houses which have been sitting unsold for 2 years.

    It’s going to be a long slow summer……

  94. lisoosh says:

    For the Realtors – If inventory is lowest in years, can we expect the banks to start releasing their backlogs?

  95. leftwing says:

    Someone working at NBC among a bunch of newbie Gen Y producers has a wicked sense of humor…

    It’s NBC’s advertisement for the State of the Union tonight. The logo is the great One’s face, with a silhouette of the Capitol, all overlaid on a huge red star.

    Anyone – anyone – with any sense of history or who was past puberty in the 80s has to do a double take. It’s hilarious, and could have come straight from the old Soviet Union.

    I can’t believe it made it out of however many levels of review these things go through.

    Can’t find a link, if anyone has one please post. Have to save that one.

  96. left (89)-

    Here’s a play for you. More fun than five crack-addled h00kers:


  97. soosh (96)-

    Banks’ underlying MBS positions will dictate how they release REO inventory, not market inventory levels.

    Also, expect them to royally fcuk this up.

  98. Too much incentive for banks to withhold REO inventory and mark it at par.

    Any other strategy leads to disaster.

  99. freedy says:

    not much backlog in BC, the buyers are all
    waiting in the wings. wait, the spring selling season is here

  100. toyne says:

    #95It’s going to be a long slow summer……

    And it’s still Winter.

  101. Cindy says:


    Did this get posted?

    Via CR – MBA: Mortgage Applications Decline

  102. Comrade Nom Deplume, a.k.a. "The Goon Squad" says:

    [38] grim,

    Not just NJ. US DoJ is hiring a raft of people in its Civil Rights division (apparently this will be DoJ’s focus), and the ads all have this interesting phrase:

    “Given the nature and volume of this work, the [insert name here] Section generally seeks candidates with significant litigation experience and a demonstrated commitment to public service and/or civil rights.”

    That’s as close as you will come at the federal level to a sign that says “True Believers (i.e., liberal democrats) Only.” There’s a more subtle message, but Eric Holder will have me investigated if I suggest it.

  103. gary says:

    leftwing [97],

    I have to bite my tongue when the discussion of Gen Y, Gen Z or whatever the f*ck they are called these days comes up. There is a certain moxie or insight that is seriously lacking from this group. Try bringing up anything nostalgic or Americana realted and they are totally, totally stumped.

  104. smathers says:

    I’ve been proud to be a renter all my adult life, but frankly, its wearing on me. There’s no stigma now. People who own around here comment on how smart we are, etc. etc.

    The problem is that with 2 kids its pretty damn hard to get a rental that isn’t shite or vastly overpriced. My rental comes with a psychopathic landlord, a badly painted interior (the landlord was inventive), and a tiny kitchen that’s almost unusable. It’s embarrassing to bring friends over to, not because its a rental but because the place is so ugly. This was the best thing I could find for below $3,000 a month when I was looking. Well, there was something better, but it was across the street from the MSU football stadium. Boy would I love band practice. Over here, any time anything breaks, it takes forever for this guy to get repair it. No downstairs toilet for a month. No kids sink for a month. He wanted to come out and look at it himself.

    Move to another rental? Sure. After 20 years of rentals, I know landlords well and hardly expect any better from another one. Neighbors across the street got a nice place as a rental that they’re paying well over $3,800 for, but now that the owner realizes the market isn’t getting any better, they are putting it on and out go the tenants.

    Do I like to move? With two kids? Guess who’s going to do all the work? Only one problem, I actually have a job. Even with the $5,000 minimum for movers, I’ll be spending my free time for 2 months before and after hauling shit around.

    Yes, I know I’ll be losing money, but I’m ready to pull the trigger. The peak is a memory now, even if the prices will still fall. Will they fall 20% within a year after I buy it? Maybe. Or maybe they will fall 20% more in 5 years? Or maybe not? I thought I’d be buying something nice after the 2001 recession, but can’t say I expected the Republicans to pull the ownership society crap. Now the Democrats are having their turn. This government is madness in both parties.

    I got my $150k for a down payment. I have been eyeing the market for a while. It’s not great out there, but there are some things I’ll offer 20% off the lowest price for and see if they’ll stick. I’m looking at Glen Ridge, maybe Montclair. Stupid, sure, but we’re already in the latter school district and its serviceable. The former is in the top school systems in the state. I’m not extending my commute any further and am not exactly seeing much better anywhere nearby.

    If there are any realtors anybody thinks would be worth working with, please let me know. I would like someone to open the locks on the doors but just don’t want them to lie to me all the time.

  105. scribe, The Princess of Paramus says:



    Try as I might, I just don’t understand the bit with:

    A) The Fed buying MBS
    B) The Fed ending its buying of MBS

    Since it was never sustainable longer-term, why provide artificial support that has to be yanked away fairly quickly?

    Who’s going to buy up that much MBS when the Fed stops?

    Sounds to me like a formula for disaster.

    Don’t start something you can’t finish.

    What am I missing here?

  106. chicagofinance says:

    The end is nigh…..

    I am supposed to swap my afternoon coffee/latte for tea for health reasons
    :( :( :(


  107. America’s #1 export, debt, gets a firm foothold in China:

    “A source in China confirms that in just the last few months, several of his colleagues — as many as 30% of the employees at a medium sized IT services firm — who never once had a credit card have started using them.

    Not just that, they’re rolling over debt equivalent to 25% of their monthly salary.

    Remember, these are people with almost no experience with debt.

    This is not surprising. As the middle class emerges, and people have stable jobs, credit cards offer a quick shortcut to a nice jump in standard of living. Beyond that, other dynamics, such as the gender imbalance, will compell men to spend more for mating and competition purposes.”


  108. chicagofinance says:

    Scotch is OK though

  109. I can now safely declare the Spring market is dead.

  110. safeashouses says:

    Seems like a lot of sellers who bought at/near the peak are in denial. Let’s see, I gotta sell my house I bought in 06 so I’m going to list it for that, plus commission, my closing costs from buying it, plus any renovations/upgrades. Who cares if similar houses are sitting for 1 to 6 months at 15 to 20% off my list. My house is special. I saw O get inaugurated in the living room, I learned to boil water from a TV show in that kitchen, my kid squished his first spider in the basement, and my MIL only clogged the toilet every other visit so you know the pipes can handle heavy loads.

  111. gary (105)-

    Those are the first two American generations that have been totally and successfully brainwashed.

  112. #74 – Tek-9s? A bit…. urban, don’t you think? Don’t get me wrong, lead slingin’ is lead slingin’, just let’s consider the tasty 60’s retro styling of the Beretta M12.
    Just because we’re revolutionary doesn’t mean we aren’t style conscious.

  113. Fiddy Cents on the Dollar says:

    smathers —

    After all you’ve read about Montclair on here, why would you put yourself into a town on the brink of fiscal calamity ??

    You might want to do a little more research on towns in the area. Keep your powder dry. 20% down payment, no more, no less.

  114. lisoosh says:

    And we’re home to #1. Pret? Lurkerb? Care to comment?

    America’s most overvalued cities


    “In January 2006, CNNMoney published a ranking of 299 U.S. housing markets, showing where home prices were most overvalued…
    A total of 213 cities were overpriced, and Naples, Fla., was deemed the most insane, with 84% of homes valued over a fair market price,..
    That finding so rankled the Naples Chamber of Commerce and area real estate agents that they hired economists to dispute the evaluation,…
    Atlantic City, N.J., is now the most overvalued metro area in the nation. At 30.2% over fair market, it is the only city in the dangerous 30%-plus category. Almost at that cutoff is Wenachee, Wash., at 28.9%. The third most overpriced area is Ocean City, N.J.
    These judgments are determined by comparing median home prices, local interest rates, population densities and income, plus historical premiums or discounts that areas have exhibited over time.”

  115. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Marc Faber doesn’t mince words . . .

    “”I don’t have a very high opinion of Mr. Obama,” Faber told “Squawk Box Europe.” “I was negative of Mr. Bush but I think Mr. Obama makes him look like a genius.”


    “When you look at the US… it’s a total disaster, we’re all doomed, we’re doomed . . .”


  116. gary says:

    Condition [113],

    Absolutely, It’s astonishing. Take away any hand-held electronic device and you’re left with a piece of furniture in the shape of a human.

  117. John says:

    wow nassau county is only 4% overvalued as opposed to 40% four years ago. Nassau count is cheap. Average home is $411K but think about it my nephew who is graduating school in spring has a 50K offer so does GF, so housing in only 4x income for a 21 year old couple.

  118. smathers says:

    #115 I know. But NJ is a fiscal calamity too (as is NY). What’s better? Bloomfield? God no. We’re thinking of Glen Ridge, since it’s largely isolated and doesn’t come with a built-in hood.

    #117 I don’t understand our parties anymore. Too stupid to believe they’re evil. Too devious at coming up with the schemes they come up with.

    Well, I guess it’s better than the other option. I was offered a well-paying job in Ireland five years ago. :p

  119. lisoosh says:

    smathers says:
    January 27, 2010 at 9:30 am

    “The problem is that with 2 kids its pretty damn hard to get a rental that isn’t shite or vastly overpriced.”

    Outside of your issues with your landlord the above sentiment can equally apply to the inventory for sale.

    Shite or vastly overpriced.

  120. lisoosh says:

    chicagofinance says:
    January 27, 2010 at 9:31 am
    The end is nigh…..

    “I am supposed to swap my afternoon coffee/latte for tea for health reasons
    :( :( :(”

    Dude, being miserable isn’t good for your health either. It is possible to take a health kick a little too far……..

  121. smathers says:

    #116… is there a link to the full survey???

  122. hughesrep says:


    Mix a shot of scotch in your tea.

    Call it a Clotte.

  123. Fiddy Cents on the Dollar says:

    smathers —

    I really don’t know the Essex county area, I’m a flat-lander down here in Monmouth county. NJRE Citizens in the northern counties can help you pick a town that satisfies your commuting range.

    Are you handy with a hammer ?? Looking for a fixer-upper ?? If you’ve got time to grind it out with an REO, maybe there’s a deal for you there.

    I say put down just enough to avoid PMI and keep your Cash Stash high & dry.

  124. Pat says:

    smathers, I check out auto pics to feel better, but seems like a lot of folks here need some other happy stimulus.

    The music on this and all the smiles was uplifting.

  125. leftwing says:


    All joking aside, do not put 20% down.

    Go with any low down payment option.

    At least explore both. Come on here with the rates and I’ll run the numbers for you so you can decide.

    There is nothing good that happens when you have 20% down in a house in a declining market.

    Market moves down 15% – you have a huge loss and zero leverage with 20 down. Who cares about you? Nobody. And you’ve just blown all your equity. And probably won’t walk away from the remaining shred at that point.

    With 3.5% down it’s the banks problem, not yours, and you preserve totally flexibility on walking away. And still have 16.5% of your equity in cash. The bank took the hit, not you.

    And, if you have structured your afairs properly, you can now buy again at the new lower price.

    If you think values may take another leg down it’s the only way.

  126. John says:

    Busy this week but next week I will tell my “jogging track” story.

  127. PGC says:


    Stockman is a bit of a joke. Supply-side and trickle down economics don’t work. That and Ronnies Deficit Spending were only balanced by Volcker going Banzai with monetery policy.

    Come to think of it, Deficit Spending and Volcker, where have I heard that lately?

  128. renter says:

    This is exactly why my husband wants to just buy a house.

  129. jurisprude says:


    Can you please help me with these MLS listing? It’s asking price seems out of line (lower) with its surrounding.


    Thank you very much!

  130. smathers-

    If you buy in Montclair, you deserve whatever happens to you.

  131. PGC says:

    It would be interesting to run the same numbers in the US.

    Unequal Britain: richest 10% are now 100 times better off than the poorest

  132. left (127)-

    The best play is to find a community eligible for USDA financing (hardy-har: many urban areas actually qualify!).

    No money down, max 102% LTV, unlimited seller concessions OK, underwriting standards nonexistent. It’s basically a free call option on your house. Things get dicey? Walk away, scot-free.

  133. leftwing says:

    Re: BearCat

    Apparently Passaic County got a new armored SWAT vehicle for a $200k net cost. Came by way of a federal grant. Tried to link to the story now available on njdotcom but I get moderated.


    Do you think the citizens of fair Passaic County, given the option of reaching directly into their own wallets, would have agreed to pony up $200k for this thing?

    If not, why is it acceptable for their earnings to be forcibly confiscated and then sent back to them in the form of this piece of metal, less the obligatory government vig posing as the services a vested public, uhm, servant?

  134. PGC (129)-

    In the new “Volcker-as-God” environment, revisionists forget that Volcker was never considered a fiscal genius. His forte is ONLY monetary policy.

  135. lisoosh says:

    renter says:
    January 27, 2010 at 9:57 am
    This is exactly why my husband wants to just buy a house.”

    renter – I’ve been finding that showing them how bad it is out there tempers their enthusiasm.
    And finding distractions.

  136. renter (130)-

    Lame-ass reason, unless you enjoy holding illiquid losing investments.

  137. soosh (136)-

    Does your definintion of “distraction” include ether-soaked rags and shackled confinement?

  138. Anon E. Moose says:

    55.grim says:
    January 27, 2010 at 7:35 am
    The realtors said they had to sign in blood stating they wouldn’t come back to the table or an extension.

    What the idiot politicians didn’t realize is thy the realtors already sold their souls, thus the blood signature was meaningless.


  139. PGC says:

    WOW, the Big 3 catch a break.

    Toyota suspends sales of eight US models

  140. renter says:

    We only have $70,000 to put down but that is so much money to me. It would kill me to see it blow up in a house!

    I better start looking for a new rental and calm my husband down.

  141. #140 – They’re all the important Toyota models too; Corolla & Camry.

  142. smathers says:

    left, how do i go about doing that? i’ve read about that here before, but i’m still concerned about how i’d avoid the murderous ding to my credit score.

  143. safeashouses says:

    You guys who think you can put 3.5% down, then if prices fall buy another house and do jingle mail on first house might be in a for a surprise.

    I have a friend who owns a 2 family house and lives in 1 of the units. He was told he can’t get another mtg to buy a SFH until he sells his 2 family. He has over 50% equity in the 2 family, can put 30% down on the SFH without selling or heloc his current house, credit score over 740, and has 1 year of reserves on top of his downpayment.

    Was told his and his wife’s income couldn’t carry both mtgs, and even if he rented a house first and had 6 months plus of rental income from the unit he is currently living in, the lender was still doubtful if the numbers would work.

  144. Essex says:

    144. Crazy. But hey, keep your credit score high folks!!!

  145. Anon E. Moose says:


    You don’t avoid it, you just live with it. It will work… once.

    If you find yourself 3-4 years from now 20% underwater and wishing (or forced) to relocate, you tap your cash reserved from not putting 20% down to arrange a new situation, then jingle mail the old albatross. You keep the new mortgage holder happy, and any CC you already have — provided they do not include universal default clauses (even so they may still slam your credit limit down to nothing), and/or live on cash. Make sure you have a reliable car that will last you at least 5 years. The FC will stay on your credit for 7 years, but you can rehab it in 3-5.

  146. freedy says:

    credit scores are in the process of being
    changed. they have to

  147. FrustratedBuyer says:

    #89 idiot or not they make the market. What can you do?

  148. leftwing says:


    you will kill your credit score.

    you can try to arrange your finances so that at least one spouse is viable for credit purposes and your assets are not accessible (visible) to the lender.

    mostly, you have control ofthe situation because in another leg down scenario YOU have 16.5% of your downpayment in cash and the BANK is underwater.

    put 20% down and the situation is reversed. YOU are underwater 20%, the bank is whole, and you don’t have your cash.

    it’s not a magic bullet but more of a solution for someone who ‘needs’ to buy a house now. lowest amount down.

  149. leftwing says:

    lawyers, brokers on the board

    Anyone with experience in leasehold sales or financings in NJ?

    residential, if they exist.


  150. Essex says:

    I want to see someone throw a shoe tonight at the State of the Union address!

  151. safeashouses says:

    #145 essex,

    He was fuming.

    I wonder if he could create a company, sell/transfer his 2 family to that company, then buy his SFH? Or is that illegal?

  152. gary says:

    renter [141],

    We only have $70,000 to put down but that is so much money to me.

    You are absolutely correct. That is a ton of money for the 99% of us who have to grind and toil day after day to keep afloat. But, of course, no one is going to give a flying sh1t if you lose it except you and your family.

    If you’re going to consider an offer on a house, make sure you’re almost embarrassed at the price you’re going to submit. After the Used Hovel Pusher tells you that your offer is an insult, let him/her know that you’ll expect a phone call in a month provided you didn’t already find something else.

  153. Essex says:

    Credit Checks. Let’s lower the scores and make it easier for the lenders to enslave people. Again.

  154. freedy says:

    credit scores are being redone. its a do over and the reason is , all credit scores are
    getting creamed. there won’t be anybody left to buy this crap.

  155. House Whine says:

    Credit Checks- Never would I want to do anything to jeopardize my score. Too many jobs now require a credit check. For that reason alone I am not willing to risk making a financial mistake. Although I still do not understand how it ever became legal for a potential employer to ask for this information. It seem like legalized discrimination to me.

  156. Essex says:

    Airlines suffered record drop in traffic in 2009:

    Jets taxi at Los Angeles International Airport, 2009. The International Air…

    International airlines suffered their biggest decline in traffic since 1945 last year as passenger demand fell 3.5 percent, the International Air Transport Association said Wednesday.
    Freight also fell, by 10.1 percent, as “full-year 2009 demand statistics for international scheduled air traffic that showed the industry ending 2009 with the largest ever post-war decline,” IATA said in a statement.

    “In terms of demand, 2009 goes into the history books as the worst year the industry has ever seen,” said Giovanni Bisignani, director general of the world’s biggest airlines’ association.

    “We have permanently lost 2.5 years of growth in passenger markets and 3.5 years of growth in the freight business,” he added.

  157. Essex says:

    160. I still blame the airlines for 9/11. IMHO

  158. PGC says:


    Should they sign MPW up for the Bridgewater Manor?

    I could see Batali creating a nice little side line for himself signing off on all the Italian wedding factories in NJ.

  159. Alap says:

    Im going to move to Haiti. I hear real estate is pretty cheap there right now.

  160. Fiddy Cents on the Dollar says:

    smathers —

    Just make sure you fully understand all that a “walk-away” entails.

  161. lisoosh says:

    The Condition-Code Red says:
    January 27, 2010 at 10:08 am
    soosh (136)-

    “Does your definintion of “distraction” include ether-soaked rags and shackled confinement?”

    I’m not that kinky ;-).

  162. PGC (140)-

    It’s only a break for Honda.

  163. #166 – You’re slipping Frank… you usually declare 12-14 as ‘on fire’.

  164. smathers (143)-

    How much would you be willing to pay in order to maintain a high credit score?

  165. frank says:

    Just look at the prices and tell me where do you see recession?
    $500/sqrf? $400/sqrf?

  166. left (149)-

    You don’t have to walk on underwater properties. A short sale allows a borrower to rehab credit within 24-30 months.

  167. #170 – … oh Frank, you’re right clearly these UCs are a sign the recession is over.
    Hey, how’s Abecrombie & Fitch doing? …. oh, wait.

  168. whine (159)-

    Companies want to confirm that you will be a good little slave before they hire you. How better to do that than to see if you are already a good little debt slave?

  169. Play your cards perfectly, and you can rehab dinged credit in 24 months.

  170. Do not BK, do not FK. Those are sucker plays that only benefit lawyers.

  171. PGC (162)-

    MPW is walking evidence of the permanent damage cocaine can do.

  172. jcer says:

    I agree whole heartedly with smathers. The issue with rentals is STABILITY, dealing with landlords, and lack of customization. My rental is great, but it is not perfect and to make it the way I would want might cost 30-40k but I can’t have it, even if I was willing to pay more rent, I cannot find a property finished the way I would like. The lack of stability is a major problem, I don’t like moving, I have tons of stuff(Furniture,Electronics,Sporting goods(Skis,snowboards,mountain bikes), clothing, etc) movers are expensive and it is an annoying process and I don’t have kids! So my goal is to find a house that is at least close in cost to my rental from a carry standpoint.

    Also the low down payment concept doesn’t work well, if you are hoarding cash, most personal home mortgage loans issued in NJ are recourse loans, they can go after you for debt unsatisfied by the sale of the home. Unlike commercial real estate where the holder of the asset is likely an LLC, and the banks understand this so issue non-recourse loans, personal loans don’t work this way and if you tried to buy using an LLC, you won’t get a loan because your LLC doesn’t have parties behind it with credit, a track record, etc. Pre 2005 you might have gotten a non-recourse loan or the ability to buy through an LLC but not today.

  173. gary says:

    Timmy Geithner getting hammered! Goldman Sachs got red carpets, caviar and champagne. And, he is the real life Beavis without a doubt.

  174. House Whine says:

    174- 24 months is forever when you are job-hunting.

  175. Juice Box Sean says:

    Who cares if you are underwater, since eventually you will be getting a cramdown courtesy of Uncle Sam.

    FYI, Wall Street banks scored an overwhelming victory last April when they soundly defeated a mortgage cramdown measure in the US Senate.

    The two existing Gov programs one passed Under Bush and one passed under Obama combined have made little difference for homeowners facing forclosure. Hope for Homeowners program passed in 2008 has helped only 96 of the 400,000 homeowners originally targeted. Obama’s plan the Home Affordable Modification Program, or HAMP, has helped fewer than 10,000 underwater borrowers.

    Cramdown or principal forgiveness may be coming, the Treasury is now actively looking at it.


  176. jcer (177)-

    So, what you’re saying is: your enslavement to crap is interfering with your ability to become a mortgage slave?

    “I have tons of stuff (Furniture,Electronics,Sporting goods(Skis,snowboards,mountain bikes), clothing, etc) movers are expensive and it is an annoying process and I don’t have kids!”

  177. relo says:

    92: Family up the street from me listed their house pre-holidays. He lost his job. After rejecting a lowball, they’ve re-listed and upped the ask. Significantly.

  178. sean (180)-

    Take the really big overview: when society completely breaks down, none of this will matter. If you are cunning, strong and well-armed, you’ll be the king of your own little domain.

    I am not joking.

  179. PGC says:

    #170 Frank

    $400-500/sf used to be referred to as Jersy City pricing.

  180. leftwing says:


    understand what i am saying and am not saying.

    i am not saying that you should walk away from a mortgage.

    i am not saying that doing so will not impact your credit score.

    i am saying that you severely limit your ability to keep strategic default as an option and that you can lose in cash 16.5% of the house’s value if you pony up a 20% downpayment in what you believe may be a falling market rather than using a 3.5% downpayment.

    one analysis, if it ever comes to it, may be ‘is keeping cash equal to 16.5% of the house’s purchasae price a fair tradeoff for a damaged credit score?’ or conversely ‘would i write a check for 16.5% of the home’s purchase price soley to keep a good credit record?’

    it is about keeping your options open, since none of us has a crystal ball, and the rules are constantly changing.

    i, along with others on this board, are in the unfortunate situation of being in a loss position on property but because of a 20+% downpayment not being upside down. if i had taken a 3.5% mortgage in 2004 i would have the ability to consider walking away on at least one.

  181. left (185)-


    “…one analysis, if it ever comes to it, may be ‘is keeping cash equal to 16.5% of the house’s purchasae price a fair tradeoff for a damaged credit score?’ or conversely ‘would i write a check for 16.5% of the home’s purchase price soley to keep a good credit record?’”

  182. John says:

    tantra is stupid, for 3K you could buy a used reliable Taurus, that car is going to fall apart in two years. Similar to first generatiosn Hundais, my friend had one back in the 1980s, window cranks were shot, seats ripped, rode like a garbage truck and AC did not work all with 35k miles. Hundai is great now, but foreign car makers in counties that suck at making cars who sell it soley on cheap are as reliable as a used 15 year old american car. So the fact it is new is meaningless.

  183. leftwing says:

    “I wonder if he could create a company, sell/transfer his 2 family to that company, then buy his SFH? Or is that illegal?”

    LLCs are interesting. One property I own is in one. Bought in 2004, set the LLC up specifically for that purpose, obviously had to provide a personal guaranty.

    Mortgage (not surprisingly) nor the guaranty (surprisingly) never appeared on my credit record.

    If I had only put a de minimis amount down I would walk from the LLC payments and challenge the bank to produce the guaranty. 3:1 odds they couldn’t. Missed opportunity.

  184. Juice Box Sean says:

    Clot – We haven’t even had the bread and circuses yet. This slow burn is just that, and if they haven’t rioted in Detroit they aren’t going to riot. Hand out enough government cheese and people will just bend over and take it.

    Wake me up when there is a crime wave in the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens, and people start adding steel bars to their windows again.

  185. left (188)-

    You have just given me another great idea.

  186. leftwing says:


    Talk to me.

    Also, do you know if there have been any residential leasehold sales in NJ? Anything in consumer RE law prohibiting them?

  187. Nicholas says:

    Yeah Geitner getting reamed by those in Congress. Election year has got the hive swarming.

    They handed it to him early and trying to embarass him. This is the best reality show…ever!!

  188. Anon E. Moose says:


    They seem to think that lowballs are determined as ASK – $X, or if they’ve managed to sit through 5th grade algebra, ASK – Y%. “If I up my list price,” they cogitate, “the lowball will be right where I want to sell it! I’m a genius!”

    They will soon learn that such ‘lowballs’ are in fact accurately described as “fair market value” and will not increase proportionately or arithmatically with increased asking price.

    Besides, who’s dumb enough bid without checking the listing history of an address?

  189. Simon says:

    The Condition-Code Red says:
    “January 27, 2010 at 11:42 am

    sean (180)-

    Take the really big overview: when society completely breaks down, none of this will matter. If you are cunning, strong and well-armed, you’ll be the king of your own little domain.

    I am not joking.”

    Its not a joke, in fact there is a movie in the works:

    “Dr. Clotpoll or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Pending Oblivion”

  190. Mr Hyde says:


    finished my chart p0rn , but cant upload it until i get home.

    In short, my opinion is we see a 50% or greater drop peak to trough in real (adj) terms and another 35% +/- 5% from our current level.

  191. Mr Hyde says:


    forgot to add, we bottom in the neighborhood of 2016-2019. The exact date is somewhat irrelevant as the bottom is likely to be very flat, few people would notice or care about the difference from year to year

  192. left (191)-

    Nothing in law preventing the sale of either res or com leaseholds. However, many LLs don’t allow for recording of leases, which then makes leaseholds difficult to market. When I rented com space, I wanted to record my lease, and the LL prohibited it.

  193. Shore Guy says:

    The real problem with this economic downturn, at least as I see it, is that it is NOT like all the other post-war downturns but it is being treated as if it were. We have tended to see certain patterns so folks trust that we will see the same patterns this time.

    Companies cut but then come back stronger. Job losses come and are followed by even greater hiring as things improve. People take on some debt and then rebound. Yadda, yadda.

    This time sure seems different, at leas to this citizen.

  194. Shore Guy says:


  195. Mr Hyde says:

    shore 198,

    night and day

  196. Shore Guy says:


    I wonder if some of those (Mc)Mansions of glory are soon going to turn into (Mc)Mansions of pain.

  197. CNBC just floats rumor of DIS-AAPL circle jerk on new tablet.

  198. chicagofinance says:

    *@_(+%@+&*_+$*&@+#(!@)#(+!)@!)@(*&^%_(#$(+#@(E@{E@+ N+ER

    65 years ago today

  199. Shore Guy says:

    “night and day”

    So it seems to me. The mental image I have of how a ship behaves when it encounters a hurricane. A seaworthy ship that is not overloaded may get tossed around, take on some water, and even suffer some damage, but, nonetheless come out alright; however, a ship in poor condition, overloaded, and already tending o tke on wter, may not make it out of the storm at all.

    We entered this recession with so much personal, corporate, and government debt, and with jobs fleeing for other nations, it is easy to see us as more like the latter ship than the former.

    God bless America, we surely need it.

  200. Shore Guy says:

    “forgot to add, we bottom in the neighborhood of 2016-2019. ”

    Is it an asymptotic curve? If so, when does your data show the the last meaningful decrease occurs?

  201. d2b says:

    Anybody want to take a shot at writing today’s Fed statement?

    Should not be hard since it’s been the same for six months.

  202. chicagofinance says:


    Opinion: Do you think that scotch (maybe something blended like Black) would mix well with raw garlic and borscht?

    hughesrep says:
    January 27, 2010 at 9:52 am
    110 Mix a shot of scotch in your tea.
    Call it a Clotte.

  203. relo says:

    193: Yep, seems to be the approach. They’re attempting to get back the $$ in renovations they’ve done over the years. Next up, death by a thousand price cuts. Unless denial is so ingrained that they go the ostrich route.

    Saw homeowner referred to as “home ower” somewhere. NAR should pick up on that.

  204. chicagofinance says:

    I was cutting through Springfield yesterday and stopped in……I love this place….I could spend a whole afternoon in there….

    I came face-to-face with some Knob Creek, but I demurred. My instinct tells me that work4 would pan their beer selection though…..

    I spend about 20 minutes going through all the ports and sherries….

  205. Anon E. Moose says:

    What kind of a discount (percentage or dollars) should one expect or be willing to accept to live within a 1-blick radius of an active Fire/Rescue facility? I’m primarily concerned with noise, but traffic can be a problem as well.

  206. Anon E. Moose says:

    blick => block

  207. chicagofinance says:

    Can we ensure that we have a cellar full of this for the Nompound?

  208. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [21] morpheus

    I for one can’t defend the subterfuge, though the details will undoubtedly emerge as to what they were up do.

    What is strange about the whole episode was that they did not appear to have bugging equipment, nor did they even seem to know what they were doing.

    The alternate theory in some newsstories I read was that it was some sort of prank, like they wanted to punk Landrieu’s office staff. This would be consistent with why one of them was recording their interactions on a cell phone (which left me headscratching as to why record a conversation with a secretary?)

    Problem is, even if it was a prank, what they did in Landrieu’s office may be a crime even if it would not have been one in an ACORN office.

    Here’s an even weirder possibility: They were trying to punk Landrieu, and wanted to bait her, or the feds, into coming down hard on them because of their politics. Like offering to go into the river to attract the crocs, but hey, its possible.

  209. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [213] chifi


    Working on the new racks this weekend.

  210. toyne says:

    #106 $5,000 minimum for movers!!!

    That seems incredibly high!!

  211. toyne says:

    #115 20% down payment, no more, no less.

    The bare minimum down, seems to make the most sense.

  212. toyne says:

    #115 20% down payment, no more, no less.

    The bare minimum down, seems to amke the most sense.

  213. John says:

    Screw the new home buyer credit, you can also get a tax write off for a boob job for your wife and unlike the house the bank can’t take back the Double D’s.

  214. RayC says:

    toyne says:
    January 27, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    #106 $5,000 minimum for movers!!!

    That seems incredibly high!!


    It is, for a local move.

    I paid under $1000 to go from NYC to Union County NJ 3 years ago. Flat Rate Movers – came from a 2BR apt w/75 boxes, so not quite a house full, but close.

  215. relo says:

    219: But when TSHTF, she can walk like Stephanie Seymour in 157.

  216. Mr Hyde says:


    the 90’s bubble approached it’s bottom asymptotically and I feel that this will as well. Unless we suddenly become debt free and the lender to the rest of the world, a “v” shaped bottom is unlikely

    also note that I couch all of thi in real adj terms. The infaltion I expect to see in the next 5+ years could mean nominal prices are near or above 07 prices if it gets really ugly

  217. Bystander says:

    #112 Safe,

    How right you are. I have been tracking this starter home in Norwalk, CT. It was purchased in ’04 for $470K then sold for a loss at end of ’06 ($460K). Listed in October for $499K?!!?. They made no significant upgrades. This sillinesss has to end.

  218. jcer says:

    Clot, what I am simply saying is I want to come home after work to a nice place, where everything is set up the way I want it and I am not forced to move every 2 years at the whim of the landlord. Most people have that stuff, it would be insane to deprive yourself of things that you can easily afford that are necessary or make life more enjoyable/easier.

    Can I live without a lot of stuff yes, but why should I? I need nice clothes to go to work so I can get paid, same goes for computers. Furniture and decorations are part the the aesthetic of your home and it does have an effect on your mood and well being, you are much more comfortable in a place you find visually appealing. Kitchen equipment, yes I can cook without a lot of it, I have worked with a chefs knife, fry pan and stock pot as the only kitchen implements, but again much easier to have a full set of proper knives, pots, pans, utensils and small kitchen appliances(food processor, automatic espresso machine, infrared toaster(best thing ever!),pasta press,etc). The results tend to be better(although one trip through willy sonoma makes me think the specialization of pots, pans, knives, and small machines has gone too far!(Frittata pan are you kidding me, fry pan and a board works perfect, crepe pan, I could go on)

    Sporting goods just support my unhealthy, expensive obsession with (mostly)winter sports. Believe it or not I don’t spend that much on goods ,my entertainment budget is many times greater than what I spend on goods. Generally I buy things that will last and keep them for many years, I try to avoid chinese made as much as possible. I’d rather spend my time doing leisure activities than packing for a move because my landlord decides he wants to do something with his property. Moving and setting things up is time consuming and not fun.

    Also unlike you I don’t believe the apocalypse is upon us, look at Argentina and you may get a glimpse at our future, also note that we are the USA and that is Argentina a country that has historically had problems. Things are very messed up here and the US may lose it status, which is why hard assets make sense provided they are liquid and fungible, two things real estate is not. Americans are way to easily distracted for society to break down as long as nascar and american idol are on tv, the standard of living could drop considerably but I don’t see the break down you are predicting. Real Estate I would wager will be better than cash, which in a meltdown loses much of it’s buying power, but worse than metals, oil, food.(i.e. Argentina)

  219. stu says:

    Been busy this morning so here goes.

    Interesting wording on today’s MBA purchase applications…
    “Although rates remain low, there appears to be a smaller pool of borrowers who are willing to refinance at today’s rates.” The average 30-year mortgage rate edged 2 basis points higher in the week to 5.02 percent. MBA’s purchase index fell 3.3 percent.

    ChiFi (210): Wine Library rocks and I work right around the corner from them. Many a bargain is to be had there, but many bottles are listed as on sale when they are actually more expensive than at the local liquor store. If we ever get together, I’ll open a cab from a case I bought last year that is easily a $150 cab that I paid $28 per bottle for. I know this is the case as I spoke with the owner of the vineyard and know what the ‘reserve’ on their label meant.

    Leftwing/Smathers (185): About FHA and the right to walk away. Think of it as owning a gun. With a gun, it makes no sense owning one if you are not prepared to use it. Same with paying FHA premium. If you are not prepared to live off cash for 3 to 4 years then don’t bother with it. Quite frankly, a good credit score really offers you no advantage unless you plan to carry a balance. If you have 150K to put down, well you can buy a car with cash and I’m fairly certain you don’t carry a credit card balance or a Heloc. So outside of finding a job (and many recruiters would understand if you proved to them it was a strategic default) and backed it up with say 400 or 500 K worth of true assets. I’m still weighing the FHA option vs. the minimum down to avoid PMI. I think the longer I wait to purchase in Glen Ridge, the less likely I will go FHA. Our credit scores average around 800. And Smathers, a new stable with an excellent landlord and a stable tenant upstairs will be opening up soon in Montclair. Definitely within the next year. Let me know if you are interested in seeing it :P

    Safe (144): Your friend isn’t telling you something or they need to find a new mortgage broker. My guy is more than willing to do a 10% down on our next place without unloading our multi. We are not underwater and shortened our loan to 20 years recently, but still owe a boatload on it. Our broker will loan us up to 500K or so. It might help that the multi was done under my name and the next home will be done under Gators. We plan to LLC our multi once we move out for insurance purposes. I would hate to get sued and lose the new home. :P

  220. toyne says:

    #211 Don’t do it!!!

  221. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    The economy is being destroyed by design. We will end up with 9 national banks and the government will own 50% of properties via Fannie and Freddie.

    The end game is world government and a one world currency. Then we will all be happy little slaves to the UN crime syndicate.

  222. toyne says:

    #224 Real Estate I would wager will be better than cash.

    Just don’t forget those 10 to 20K a year property taxes. What a wonderful way to spend your cash.

  223. toyne says:

    #222 The infaltion I expect to see in the next 5+ years could mean nominal prices are near or above 07 prices

    Who will buy at those prices, with high interest rates?

  224. jcer says:

    The dollar will lose value, real terms 20% a year, gov’t stats 7% inflation. Rates will be higher but not much they will subsidize housing loans until the nation no longer exists.

  225. jcer says:

    American wealth, along with the toils of it’s citizens will pay for this debacle in the long term, good bye middle class, hello serfs.

  226. stu says:

    So by what ratio do you think the iPad announcement will be more popular than the State of the Union address and Fed announcement combined. I’m thinking 20 to 1.

  227. Anon E. Moose says:

    226.toyne says:
    January 27, 2010 at 1:24 pm
    #211 Don’t do it!!!

    Could you elaborate? Not at any price? Are my noted objections the reason or some other?

  228. SG says:

    OT: I know folks in Media are going gaga over IPad, as if it will change the world. Anyway, I was thinking getting one of these Dell Zino for the big screen HDTV.

    Anyone else has any opinions/reviews.

  229. homeboken says:

    And we continue to force ourselves down the road to Treasury’s being the only liquid investment available and hence the asset class of choice: Congrats middle class, you will soon be the unwilling owner of your country’s debt. Anyone still looking for inflation???

    Proposed rule 22e–3(a) would permit a money market fund to suspend redemptions if: (i) The fund’s current price per share, calculated pursuant to rule 2a–7(c), is less than the fund’s stable net asset value per share; (ii) its board of directors, including a majority of directors who are not interested persons, approves the liquidation of the fund; and (iii) the fund, prior to suspending redemptions, notifies the Commission of its decision to liquidate and suspend redemptions, by electronic mail directed to the attention of our Director of the Division of Investment Management or the Director’s designee. These proposed conditions are intended to ensure that any suspension of redemptions will be consistent with the underlying policies of section 22(e). We understand that suspending redemptions may impose hardships on investors who rely on their ability to redeem shares. Accordingly, our proposal is limited to permitting suspension of this statutory protection only in extraordinary circumstances. Thus, the proposed conditions, which are similar to those of the temporary rule, are designed to limit the availability of the rule to circumstances that present a significant risk of a run on the fund. Moreover, the exemption would require action of the fund board (including the independent directors), which would be acting in its capacity as a fiduciary. The proposed rule contains an additional provision that would permit us to take steps to protect investors. Specifically, the proposed rule would permit us to rescind or modify the relief provided by the rule (and thus require the fund to resume honoring redemptions) if, for example, a liquidating fund has not devised, or is not properly executing, a plan of liquidation that protects fund shareholders. Under this provision, the Commission may modify the relief ‘‘after appropriate notice and opportunity for hearing,’’ in accordance with section 40 of the Act.

  230. Schumpeter says:

    jcer, I know a lot of folks in your camp who believe the sheeple are too zoned on TV/NASCAR, etc to give a damn, but when things start getting really hairy, we’re gonna find out that the bulk of the population of the US is the equivalent of a soft, amoral, egocentric, impulsive, violent and cross-addicted adolescent.

  231. d2b says:

    Ipad=Big Ipod touch.

    As for moving, I moved my brother out of his 1BR apartment using a Lowes Load-n-Go truck. It was $19 bucks. I just wanted to see if I could get away with it.

  232. Painhrtz says:

    Is it just me or is Il Duce always drawn like a black scare cartoon out of the early 20th century south.

  233. Schumpeter says:

    And, as many here have posited (myself included), the Argentine outcome is one of the better-case scenarios for us.

  234. Schumpeter says:

    boken (235)-

    Hey, look how well it’s working for Japan (hrrmph…gaaaack….urrrpp):

    “Congrats middle class, you will soon be the unwilling owner of your country’s debt.”

  235. John says:

    The middle class are deadbeats, they don’t pay for nothing. The only difference between them and a welfare receipant is they can afford a CPO 3 series.

  236. homeboken says:

    John – Perhaps I should broaden this category. How about anyone that participates in their companies 401(k) or anyone that holds funds in a brokerage account that sweeps cash into MMF.

    If the redemption freeze is enacted, this will be no different than going to a bank to get your money, only to find out the doorways and windows have been covered over with brick and mortar.

  237. Essex says:

    241. In NNJ “middle class” can mean anyone making $100-250k per year.

  238. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    241. They are useless eaters. That doesnt mean that I think they should starve to death or have their savings looted because they trust their inept financial planners and government. Theres a price for not paying attention and watching tv.

    It will be a classic haves vs have nots scenario. That is why defensible perimeters should be a high priority when shopping for homes.

  239. Essex says:

    ..and CPO 3 Series run about the same cost as a brand new Accord.

  240. jcer says:

    Clot, the Argentine outcome in my mind is most likely but at the max it is as severe as that. I also think that the US population if TSHTF, is most likely to riot and loot, target #1 businesses, #2 bankers/pols/rich people. This will be sporadic and not nationwide, owning a gun will be important, as will a defensible home, a supply of food and store of barter-able currency(i.e gold, silver,liquor, or food). In this scenario owning a home becomes even more important.

  241. danzud says:


    My boss bought me a 2003 Poesia Malbec/Cab which was complimented by my guests last Saturday from the Wine Library. They are one of the better stores around.

    For beers, a good place for unique brews is the Copper Mine in North Arlington.

  242. jcer says:

    Also, being in the nicest area around you becomes a real liability at this point! This would do great things for gold coast real estate. Frank actually would be right about Hoboken being on fire!

  243. relo says:

    246: Why? Cops won’t be coming around to evict tenants. Too busy.

    In this scenario owning a home becomes even more important.

  244. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    246. Im not really worried about social unrest. I am worried at what the solution offered may be. If they try to propose some cashless money system or world currency then its time to go into crisis mode because famine and war wont be far behind.

    Alternatively, SDR’s backed by gold as the new world reserve currency could make for a nice payday for those who prepared properly.

    My guess is they are going to take the country to war after a false flag terrorist strike in the US and the Middle East will ignite.

    The old Hagelian dialectic.
    Create the thesis and antithesis and then you contol the synthesis.

  245. Mr Hyde says:


    greenbacks would still have value. I dont know the # off the top of my head, but some substantial portion of all $ transactions are electronic (i.e. debit card, CC, etc). If TSHTF, people will go to what is familiar (for a while anyway). in such a scenario, and what was seen in argentina, was that cash was suddenly very hard to come by. Even if it was heavily inflated, it still held local value due to it physical scarcity.

  246. Mr Hyde says:


    an enforced global electronic monetary system (paperless) is THE answer to TPTBs wildest dreams.

  247. gary says:

    The Federal Reserve has decided to hold interest rates at a record low and pledged to keep them there for an “extended period” to nurture the economic recovery and lower unemployment.


    The FED will continue to buy toxic sludge sh1t securities indefinitely because housing will utterly collapse otherwise. Why prolong the f*cking pain? Get it over with and let the markets dictate the course. You can keep the body on life support for years but it’s still a dead body with a simulated heartbeat.

  248. chicagofinance says:

    For the record, I know when it was down near Fulton Street it had a really impressive schlong, but when it was brought down to ground level, some woman was aghast, so it became IL CASTRATO……

  249. stu says:


    What about the iPad?

    It’s gonna kill the Kindle.

  250. chicagofinance says:

    From one my old AT&T hacks… the official CWA version….

  251. make money says:

    The middle class are deadbeats, they don’t pay for nothing. The only difference between them and a welfare receipant is they can afford a CPO 3 series.

    John, you hit the nail on the head. I’d rather be caught dead then be mediocre(oups), I mean middle class.

  252. chicagofinance says:

    JJ: is that a Star Wars reference?

    John says:
    January 27, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    The middle class are deadbeats, they don’t pay for nothing. The only difference between them and a welfare receipant is they can afford a CPO 3 series.

  253. leftwing says:

    “For the record, I know when it was down near Fulton Street it had a really impressive schlong, but when it was brought down to ground level, some woman was aghast, so it became IL CASTRATO……”

    I swear you can gauge market direction from the Merrill bull.

    Every time the market has a good run up that bad boy is sporting one heck of a tool.

    In the early eighties up to ’87 they had him charging on top of a hill, turning sideways, snorting, and pawing with the sunset behind him. High detail, backlit, and hung I remember thinking ‘I guess they can show that, not like he’s a dude or something.’

    Got a little flaccid after October that year.

  254. Schumpeter says:

    Looks like AMZN’s P/E is gonna get compressed a little…buh-bye, POS Kindle.

  255. stu says:

    Smathers (259),

    That’s a monthly payment of 10K with 10% down.

    This house will not sell for that price. I must look up the owners and see if I know them.

  256. Schumpeter says:

    left (261)-

    Where is the symbol for the tool all of us are taking in the rear?

  257. John says:

    Middle class in BC are deadbeats, The Prez considers 85K and under family income the working class, around here with 500K capes with 12K taxes and 300 dollar commutes you are dead broke. I guess you are the guy who all 3 cars in your driveway qualified for cash for clunkers.

  258. leftwing says:


    Merrill bull again, which now weirdly resembles Timmay with a strap-on

  259. Schumpeter says:

    left (266)-

    Methinks Eraserhead got a strap-on taken to his backside today.

    I say it’s +/- 14 days until he’s fired. At this point, ditching him will quiet the natives for a good long stretch and allow the banksters to continue the robbery.

  260. Barbara says:

    I’m getting here late but I’m loving today’s thread. Too much to comment on so I won’t, just love knowing that sellers and realtors are reading this and the discourse is spot on.


  261. fly-over says:

    The iPad misses the point, or perhaps it’s just me. I don’t want to carry two devices.
    I want a larger iPhone. Either the iPad needs a phone connection or there needs to be an intermediate size device between them.

  262. Schumpeter says:

    Been here a long time. I’m pretty sure the two groups that don’t come around are sellers and Realtors.

  263. make money says:


    There is gonna be a whole lot more of this as those unemployment checks stop coming.

  264. Barbara says:

    the blog has gotten enough coverage in the NYT, I think there’s probably lurkers

  265. Sean says:

    Must have been no women on Steve Jobs committee to name the damm thing.


  266. stu says:

    “I don’t want to carry two devices.”

    But then Apple couldn’t sell you two devices. :P

  267. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    DAVOS, Jan 26 (Reuters) – The police commander heading security at the World Economic Forum in Switzerland was found dead on Tuesday, local authorities said, adding that his death appeared to be suicide.

    Hmmm, this on top of the sealing of Dr. Kennedy’s (Iraq weapons inspector) file for another 70 years. Remember he was found dead in the woods behind his home. It was ruled suicide.

    Black Ops mission. As the curtain is being pulled back expect more people to commit suicide.

    You see you can blame Obama all you want. Frankly, I cant stand the guy. but he isnt calling the shots. Hes a puppet. Welcome to the shadow government and Americans dont have a seat at the table.

  268. midtown direct says:

    we put our house search on hold and are sticking it out in our rental for the time being. my realtor keeps telling me how we are missing out, prices are going up, there was a bidding war in maplewood etc. does this fear factor stuff really work on people?

  269. Barbara says:

    big pet peeve of mine, redundant technology….I am waiting for the cell phone-mp3player-stateoftheartcamera-electronic sketchpad-topofthelline GPS-that will fit into my small cross body bag-thingy.
    Until then (never) I will make do with my crappy nontexting cell and 1st gen mp3 player and Mapquest printouts.

  270. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    TEHRAN, Iran (AP) – Iran’s supreme leader predicted the destruction of Israel in comments posted on his Web site on Wednesday, in some of his strongest remarks in years about the Jewish state.
    In the past, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has called Israel a “cancerous tumor” that must be wiped from the map, but the new comments mark the first time in years he has openly speculated about Israel’s demise.

    “Definitely, the day will come when nations of the region will witness the destruction of the Zionist regime,” Khamenei was quoted as saying. “How soon or late (Israel’s demise) will happen depends on how Islamic countries and Muslim nations approach the issue.”

  271. Glen says:

    Midtown @ 276

    Speaking of renting, I was looking into possibly renting this place in Montville. It would be an upgrade from my apartment. But at $1,850 a month, no thanks. That’s over $600 more a month than I pay now, which takes away from my 20% downpayment fund.


    Maybe I’m crazy. But looking at that place, would you really think it’s worth $1,850 a month?

  272. stu says:


    So you are waiting for the iCheap?

  273. Painhrtz says:

    I love Iran’s bluster, go ahead and do it then. Last time I checked every time one of your muslim nations went against Isreal they whole heartedly go their rears kicked.

  274. toyne says:

    #233 As prices continue to decline, they will decline more, and they are incredibly difficult to sell, especially after a bubble burst,and people do not have to settle. Plus those areas are subject to zoning changes etc. I would not do it, no matter how attractive the price might be. You can never fix a bad location.

  275. toyne says:

    # 230 People still will not be able to afford the monthly payments, unless there is a huge increase in salaries, and that is not happening.

  276. toyne says:

    #276 Bodding war in Maplewood?? Well now that is a mistake. And yes the fear factor works on some people.

  277. chicagofinance says:

    Schumpeter says:
    January 27, 2010 at 3:55 pm
    left (266)- Methinks Eraserhead got a strap-on taken to his backside today.
    I say it’s +/- 14 days until he’s fired.

    strumpet: If you are going to forecast a 28 days window, why include 14 days that have already elapsed?

  278. toyne says:

    #258 Take out the middle class and it will all be over in this country.

  279. chicagofinance says:

    iPad? Where is the iLeadSmock for all of the 18 year old boys whose testes are being irradiated…..better yet, why don’t we bombard the fetus with microwaves in the first trimester?

  280. Veto That says:

    “my opinion is we see a 50% or greater drop peak to trough in real (adj) terms and another 35% +/- 5% from our current level.”

    Hyde, Nice. whats this prediction translate to in nominal terms? I guess assume higher rates from inflation will perfectly offset any upward pressure on prices.
    Dont know your inflation expectations but i’d guess it translates roughly to 40% from peak nominal. Sound about right?

  281. randyj5nj says:

    what ever happened to “njpatient”… was a regular poster on the board here then mysteriously disappeared with the explanation that chatting on these boards does not mix well with his occupation.

    anybody know how he/she is doing?

  282. John says:

    And Meadowlands stadium will be empty when the Jets play. People don’t even know who the middle class is, only upper middle class actually pay any taxes. Lower middle class plop out kids like a bad scene from a Monty Pyton sketch.

    toyne says:
    January 27, 2010 at 4:36 pm
    #258 Take out the middle class and it will all be over in this country.

  283. Barbara says:

    stu says:
    January 27, 2010 at 4:22 pm


    So you are waiting for the iCheap?

    hehe actually I would be willing to drop 1500 for a true all-in-one. I hate carrying around stuff

  284. fly-over says:

    re: 288
    I assume that was a joke. The alternative is too terrible to contemplate.

  285. Schumpeter says:

    Just talked with my brother in Memphis. My dad’s former RE development partner is now 45mm in the red on hundreds of suburban residential lots (nice, I’ve seen them) that he cannot unload for as little as 20K/lot. Tried to get an auction company to sell them off, and they took a pass.

  286. Schumpeter says:

    toyne (287)-

    Let me be the first to declare, “game over”.

  287. Smathers says:

    re: 294. developments in Memphis?

    God lord, who would need to move there? Why??? What were they thinking? I recommend letting the whole thing go fallow and selling it to a farm. Should be able to get a couple of million for it.

  288. Schumpeter says:

    chi (288)-

    Could we just bomb Frank’s testes with radiation for awhile & see what it does?

  289. toyne says:

    #297 He would probably like it.”Please sir more”!!

  290. Schumpeter says:

    smathers (296)-

    In Memphis- as most cities down South- those lots used to be farmland. Those farmers and their farms are long gone.

    Memphis was one of the fastest-growing cities in the US during the boom. Too bad it was all predicated on smoke & mirrors.

  291. homeboken says:

    The I-pad, in spite of the dreadful name, would actually make a decent 2nd computer for the homeboken’s. It is portable, surfs the web, has great video and a strong battery life. The QWERTY key-board would have to be tested out in a Mac store, but all in all, nice design good power. The best alternative I have seen to the other net-books on the market.

  292. Veto That says:

    John, will you be gobbling up Mortg Backed ppaer when the fed pulls its support away?

    I know a few bankers who are totally convinced that that market doesnt need the fed anymore. Sure they admit that mortg rates will jump a bit but are not phased by what it might do to prices.
    The response i get, which i can’t argue with is this… “why wouldnt you buy govt backed agency debt yielding 5% while rates are at zero?”
    Should be interesting to watch.

  293. Get Shorty says:

    “God lord, who would need to move there? Why???”



  294. prtraders2000 says:

    I think the last NJPatient post was from his wife. He was a good contributor. I also miss reading Pret and Booyah Bob. “FRISKY EATING BAGHOLDERS!!! BOOOOOOOYAAHHHHHH”

  295. Schumpeter says:

    shorty (302)-

    You’re dropping names that are way above Smathers’ pay grade there, pal.

    I know who you are, and I know what you’ve done. :)

  296. lisoosh says:

    Have to go out to King of Prussia tomorrow.

    Anything out there apart from the mall?

  297. lisoosh says:

    Have to go out to King of Prussia tomorrow.

    Anything out there apart from the mall?

  298. Veto That says:

    West Windsor
    They bought this one in 2002 for 280K.
    Of course its asking $430k today.


  299. relo says:

    294: Having experienced it, when hearing things like this from other parts of the country I am reminded of how those “insulated” in this area have no idea of what’s coming.

  300. prtraders2000 says:

    $$ coming down. Look at this one on one of the best streets in Caldwell. 22 Gladding. Still out of my range, but we’re getting there.


  301. chicagofinance says:

    lisoosh says:
    January 27, 2010 at 5:11 pm
    Have to go out to King of Prussia tomorrow. Anything out there apart from the mall?

    White high-tops; mullets; goatees; leopard skin sweats; wrap-arounud sunglasses; McNabb jerseys; beer guts……

  302. lisoosh says:

    Chi – So they have a safari?

  303. John says:

    I will be gobbling it up when the Fed pulls away, not while Fed is supporting it. Might be an inbalance opportunity. I stick to my 6% munis and 14% corporates for now.

    Ford like a mofo going to annouce good earnings, the real thief is their CEO. Doing a tender offer at 31 to widows and ophans scaring them into tendering bonds with a 9% coupon at 31 cents on a dollar is criminal, but making him and me money. A widow 100K of Ford bonds bought at face had a 9k income stream, when she tendered in a panic she took a 69k loss and invested 31K in a bank cd at 2%. New income stream is $600 bucks a year. That is a crime.

    Also is a crime $40 million severance check the red headed NBC talk show idiot got for quiting. Parent company GE paid it and they got TARP money that you and I paid for. Meanwhile we ran the last CEO of AIG making $1 dollar a year out of town.

    Veto That says:
    January 27, 2010 at 4:55 pm
    John, will you be gobbling up Mortg Backed ppaer when the fed pulls its support away?

  304. Veto That says:

    West Windsor, On congested street.
    Bought at the end of 2005 for $387k,
    OF course they are asking $399k today.
    I want to see the look on their face when i slide the napkin accross the table with 210K written across it.


  305. Veto That says:

    The problem with NJ is that we dont even have newer ranch homes like this one from SC. Instead in NJ you have to choose either town home with no yard or 3,000 sq ft mcmansion box home. Both equally undesirable.


  306. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [290] randy

    He was here under different name for awhile, I believe, but now that sock is silent.

    He is no longer at the employer he was at while NJPatient. I checked and he is not on the masthead.

    I think he relo’ed to NOLA.

  307. Shore Guy says:

    B.O. should fire Timmy, but I have no faith that he will. No heads rolled for the underwear bomber, aand I don’t think that B.O. likes the idea of firing people.

    Unless he also has the guts to fire Rahm — who thoroughly mismanaged the WH the past year, and mismanaged the relations with the Hill, especially with healthcare — then I don’t think he is likely to fire Timmy.

    Even if he does, it will come off as a resignation, I suspect.

  308. Veto That says:

    This is a cool house. But why are you trying to get the same price as Nov 2005?


  309. Veto That says:

    These people get the star for pricing at the same level they bought in mid 2003. Maybe there is hope.


  310. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    scribe, [some number that I forgot already…:( …]

    Would go back to Colonia when shaved ice is served cold in h3LL.

    Just sayin’


  311. grim says:

    I *NEED* an iPad.

    Apple, take my money.

  312. chicagofinance says:

    grim says:
    January 27, 2010 at 6:37 pm
    I *NEED* an iPad.
    Apple, take my money.


  313. Veto That says:

    I wonder if the economy keeps getting worse, if the Jones’ will get foreclosed on too?

  314. Smathers says:

    #314 and people think montclair is expensive?

  315. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    grim 321



  316. 316 Nom
    Thanks for the info. I was wondering about him just the other day. I hope he’s well.

  317. Pat says:

    RE: King of Prussia

    If you have any interest in revolution, drive through Valley Forge.

  318. Get Shorty says:

    Schumpeter (304),

    Maybe he should attempt to grab a drink at the Peabody. That may change his views of Memphis. After all, the cover charge is approx 50-100M, net worth.

  319. ruggles says:

    That show Property Virgins on hgtv is in Princeton Township/Montgomery Twp if you want to tivo it tonight. they got the name of the county wrong but said montgomery was the best schools in the state. second house is in Cherry Valley CC – short sale. plywood floors.

  320. Hey Wives says:

    The secret lives of married men
    We lift the lid on modern marriage, while five husbands confess their lies, big and small

    Wives, here is a fact you definitely don’t want to know about your husband: he wants to shag your best friend. Not only does he want to shag your best friend, but also your second and third-best friends. (And fourth, fifth, sixth, etc.) There’s nothing personal about this. In fact, in a strange way, he means it as a compliment. You see, one of the many delightful things he has noticed about women is that they tend to associate with women who are on a roughly similar level of pulchritude and general hotness. So what he’s sorta, kinda saying when he fancies your friends is how much he fancies you. But he’d never try articulating any of this to you. It’s just one of those many things that Wives Just Don’t Understand.

    Oh dear, I do wish I hadn’t written that paragraph. And I also wish I wasn’t about to write the rest of this article either. You see, as a man and a husband myself, I believe there are certain secrets to which the Opposition – ie, women/wives – should never be privy.



  321. willwork4beer says:

    210 ChiFi

    I’m sure that Wine Library has a decent selection of beers. Most of my favorite beer stores are great wine stores as well.

  322. yikes says:

    heard a bit of a horror story from a buyer today: guy buys a house (foreclosure).

    house is fine, yard is big, yadda, yadda. (this is in Bucks County). Then, it rains for a day. And his entire front yard becomes a POND!

    the owner is angry and panicked and calls his realtor and lawyer and wants to sue. gets nowhere.

    might want to make a note: check out your house on the day OF a rainstorm (basement, too, obviously)

  323. Outofstater says:

    Anyone watching the State of the Union? Timmy looks awful, but he’s had a tough day.

  324. scribe, The Princess of Paramus says:


    Was your high school experience that bad? :)

  325. Bystander says:


    King of the Oompa Loompas is leaving no one behind. Slashing taxes on big companies, slashing taxes on small companies, money for intrastructure and clean energy, yet no tax increases for anyone…clap, clap, clap.

  326. Bystander says:


    King of the Oompa Loompas is leaving no one behind. Slashing taxes on big companies, slashing taxes on small companies, money for intrastructure and clean energy, yet no tax increases for anyone…clap, clap, clap.

  327. Pat says:

    I like how they cut to Dodd when BO says, “I’m not interested in persecuting/prosecuting banks…”

    Timmay does look like he just got his period for the first time and needs an iPod.

  328. Pat says:

    you know I just coudn’t type the word p_d, right?

  329. Sean says:

    pat – iPad

    more drilling too!

  330. Sean says:

    O is gonna inflate the green energy bubble, well it is about time!

  331. Sean says:

    Stealing a page from Regan’s book

  332. stater (334)-

    Give us another post if somebody has the sense to bar the doors and set off some nerve gas.

    ‘Til then, I’ll watch Chelsea pound Birmingham.

  333. Are there any proposals for giving relief to honest people who work hard and create jobs?

  334. Pat says:

    Naw. What do you think this is, a democracy?

  335. Pat says:

    majority rule, dude. You have to embrace your minority status.

  336. safeashouses says:

    I got turned down in the second round of screening at Fraudy Mac for a job. Should I be insulted or complimented by this?

  337. lisoosh says:

    327 Pat – Think I drove through there a long time ago but didn’t get a chance to stop, great tip, Thanks.

  338. lisoosh says:

    safe – are you up for outside sales? Might have a lead for you. Not amazing, but a paycheck, base plus, stable company, benefits, get out and about rather than sitting in an office all day.

  339. Barbara says:

    did BO bring up the 8 hour school day again? That’s when I’ll start homeschooling like a toothless, paranoid Bible Belt fundie.

  340. safe (347)-

    Unless your career goal is becoming proficient at incompetence, fraud and waste, take it as a compliment.

  341. Turn off the volume, and just focus on Rictus Face (Pelosi).

    It will freak you out.

  342. The real current state of the union, in five paragraphs:

    “The Fed’s “independence” means the banksters’ freedom to take in $1 in deposits, set aside 3 cents in reserves, lend $1 at effective 33:1 leverage at a growth rate of 7-10%/yr. at a doubling time of 7-10 years, go broke once a decade, and have the US Treasury make them whole so they can do it all over again.

    In the meantime, the banksters use the sovereign debt of the US as the reserve basis for their rentier plunder, capturing via compounding interest and speculative financial capital gains an increasing share of future, after-tax, real labor product until the economy’s labor product is insufficient to service the massive debt, let alone sustain production and the pool of savings (productive capital stock).

    As Henry George (and others before him and after) argued, there is no capital wealth without labor. Impoverish labor product via increasing burden of compounding interest and taxes, and you impoverish the society’s ability to create wealth by way of savings, investment, and production.

    What neo-liberal economists and Keynesians have called “growth” has been borrowing cheap energy and labor product from abroad for 30-35 years while increasing the debt burden on businesses, households, and government at falling nominal interest rates.

    The job of Bernanke, Geithner, and Obama is to keep the rentier-financiers’ imperial plunder regime in power.”


  343. Theo says:

    is 900 considered a very good credit score?

  344. Barbara says:

    theo yes but 1200 is even better

  345. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    Did the Communist in Chief in front of the politburo mention anything of the Civilian Security Force “just as well funded just as powerful as the military?”

    Like the cold autumn wind……….

  346. All "H-Train" Hype says:

    President Obama = Epic Failure

    It only took 1 whole year.

    All he wants is the Clinton style retirement.

  347. chicagofinance says:

    356.Theo says:
    January 27, 2010 at 10:51 pm
    is 900 considered a very good credit score?

    Is that on the Math section or Verbal?

  348. Shore Guy says:

    “King of the Oompa Loompas is leaving no one behind. Slashing taxes on big companies, slashing taxes on small companies”

    Ahhh, BUT, he did single out those earning over $250,000/year.

  349. Shore Guy says:

    Something from CBS News that echos sentiments I expressed a week ago. When push comed to shove, the Democrats in congress will toss B.O. under the bus in order to protect their own skin:

    Democratic Anger Goes Public In Prime Time

    Jan. 28, 2010

    WASHINGTON (AP) – The Democrat-vs.-Democrat anger roiling the ranks of Congress is being wrapped in smiles and standing ovations Wednesday as President Barack Obama outlines the nation’s top priorities in his first State of the Union speech.

    But for most of the Democrats cramming the House chamber, there is no issue more pressing than getting re-elected in November. And it’s not clear that pursuing Obama’s priorities will help them achieve theirs.

    In personal and profane terms, House and Senate Democrats have huddled behind closed doors to list the debacles: The stunner in Massachusetts that cost the Democrats a Senate seat. The slow-motion collapse of health care talks. A government bailout of Wall Street while unemployment sits in double-digits.

    “It just stinks to the high heaven what happened here,” Rep. Stephen Lynch, D-Mass., railed earlier in the day at Obama’s treasury secretary, Timothy Geithner.

  350. chicagofinance says:

    clot creates a video…..

    Clot….go to rehab now…..

  351. Veto That says:

    Chi, 362.
    I watched that whole video. for some reason i just couldnt hit the close button.
    The internet has given that guy just enough information to become dangerous to society.

  352. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    scribe, 335



  353. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    Hype 357

    …and a memoir.


  354. Free iPad says:

    Nice read. I also saw a video in youtube about a review on new Apple iPad. Here is the link – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAb_yg2XF-k

  355. The i pad seems to be great and will do almost every little thing which i would like. Nevertheless, I really wished they’d decided to add a video web cam in the ipad. For this price I think they should have found a way to include one.

  356. One question I do have is: Do smaller publishing companies have all their stuff obtainable for download? And did the deal with ATT create a monopoly to a degree? Those questions are on my mind about this.

  357. Gisele Lizak says:

    I still surprise if we have a tendency to wont see a flip within the publishing model, too, where, instead of the publisher basically hiring a stable of writers, if we tend to wont see a stable of writers pool their resources to hire an editor, marketer/publicist, and copyeditor/designer (and, presumably, some kind of accountant).

  358. Aubrey Zentz says:

    One question I do have is: Do smaller publishing firms have all their stuff accessible for download? And did the handle ATT create a monopoly to a degree? Those queries are on my mind about this.

  359. Martha Edem says:

    Within the iPad v. Kindle scenario, this offers the publishers something of a negotiating lever X if Amazon wont budge on their terms/conditions, Ill visit Apple. Etc.

  360. My own past looks thus ancient. Its exhausting to believe that my Grandma was born into a house while not indoor plumbing or electricity and her family was wealthy.

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  365. Alot of bloggers are not really happy with this new iPad.There was too much hoopla about it and alot people got turned off.Thing is, I actually see great deal of the cool potential uses of the gadget. Third-party soft for working with music, games, newsprints and magazines and FFS books, tons of cool stuff, but IMHO they failed to sell it right (excluding the books). It feels kind of undercooked

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  380. Gah, I really want a Kindle, if anything then to read out-of-print books. Unfortunately publishers are being stupid and digital books are just as expensive as hard-copies, which are, in the end, more pleasant to handle, more akin to ageing (and thus being fond to look at), will furnish a room and will not all disappear at once when the battery goes-out. They also smell very nice when they age. Thanks and enjoy your day!

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