2009 – Not the year of housing

From the Record:

Home sales fell in North Jersey in 2009

North Jersey home prices dropped 8 percent last year, falling to their lowest level since 2004 and draining billions of dollars from the housing market.

Despite federal efforts to prop up the market with low mortgage rates and an $8,000 tax credit, the median price for single-family homes dropped 8 percent in Bergen County and 9 percent in Passaic County, according to an analysis of sales data by The Record. For the year, homes sold at a median price of $415,000 in Bergen and $320,000 in Passaic. Prices dropped the most at the low and high ends of the market.

“We entered 2009 staring into the economic abyss,” said Rutgers economist James Hughes. And that was reflected in the housing market, which continued to pay for the excesses of the housing boom.

It’s too early to tell how 2010 prices will shape up, although many analysts believe housing demand will slacken after the tax credit expires next month.

In fact, prices in 2009 were down about 15 percent from their peaks in the middle of the decade — much less than the roughly 30 percent average decline seen nationwide. Even more striking, the number of sales in the two counties has plummeted by 62 percent since the market peak, The Record’s analysis found. Only about 7,400 residential real estate sales were recorded in Bergen and Passaic, down from 19,300 in 2005.

For most people, who are neither buying or selling, lower values reduce household wealth, making consumers less willing — and able — to borrow and spend. This lost housing wealth has added to a sense of unease about the economy, which has been plagued by unemployment rates around 10 percent.

Median prices dropped most in areas with the lowest and highest prices. In communities where the typical price is less than $300,000, the median price sank 15 percent in 2009. At the high end, where homes generally sell for at least $750,000, the typical price dropped 11 percent.

Total sales volume in the two counties plummeted from $9.3 billion in 2005 to $3.3 billion in 2009.

In a separate sign of market trouble, there was one category of sales that did not drop in 2009. Roughly 1,500 sales were recorded during or immediately after foreclosures by lenders against owners who stopped making mortgage payments, about the same as in 2008.

The market has lost roughly $22.5 billion in total value since prices started falling in 2007. That figure is reached by multiplying the typical home loss — $60,000 to $65,000 — during the slump by the 355,000 housing units in the two counties.

Hardest hit last year were less-expensive markets such as Paterson, Fairview, Hackensack and Prospect Park, where the median price sank 18 to 27 percent. Many affluent towns also were affected. The typical price dropped 13 to 29 percent in Allendale, Edgewater, Norwood and Old Tappan.

A few places seemed to escape the market’s wrath, with stable prices and even some gains seen in Cliffside Park, Englewood Cliffs, Ho-Ho-Kus, Mahwah and Totowa.

All told, 76 of the 86 municipalities in Bergen and Passaic saw continued dips in prices.

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374 Responses to 2009 – Not the year of housing

  1. Taxed says:

    2 x 0.05=1st

  2. Taxed says:

    wrong, 2 x 0.5=1st F in math

  3. crossroads says:

    lets give your math teachers a pay freeze!

  4. morpheus says:

    shit. . not even the bronze medal!

  5. Taxed says:

    3 – i want my math teachers to refund my parents taxes to them!

    lets chalk it up to monday am limited, no make that no eeg

  6. me@work says:

    Should we be worried about this?


  7. Chris Baumle says:

    Fears of a boomtown bust in Egg Harbor Township

    By Amy S. Rosenberg

    Inquirer Staff Writer

    EGG HARBOR TOWNSHIP, N.J. – The corner of Moonlight Drive and Orchid Road would seem to have all the makings of an ideal bedroom community outside Atlantic City: “New homes coming soon,” the sign promises. But, like so much in Egg Harbor Township, the corner of Moonlight and Orchid has become stagnant.

    Just a few years ago, the outlook was so different: This was the boomtown where casino and construction workers moved their families for the ball fields and backyards, a town whose population of 22,000 nearly doubled with a stampede of 122 new developments with 800 houses a year at its peak; a town growing so fast in the last 10 years that its mayor complained they couldn’t keep up.

    Today, the township – which stretches from the Pine Barrens to the Longport causeway – is pockmarked with the fallout of the economic meltdown: 12 percent unemployment, hundreds of homes in foreclosure, bankrupt builders, the unbuilt streets like unfulfilled promises, driveway curb cuts mocking the mud, electrical hookups sticking out of the ground like gravestones.

    Atlantic City’s problems – competition just across the river, casino employment down to 36,105 from a peak of 51,560 in 1997, six of the city’s 11 casinos in some stage of bankruptcy proceedings – fast have become EHT’s problems, with so much of the casino workforce and construction trade living there.

    Mayor Sonny McCullough, never a fan of the massive growth – a result of the Pinelands Commission designating EHT as a growth community and a 1994 master plan that set off a rush of new housing developments – can only look back and sigh.

    The neighborhoods being built were bigger than many towns, he said. “All of a sudden, the [casino] industry starts to struggle, people are starting to lose their jobs, go on part-time work, the housing market takes a dive. People who paid $400,000 for their house in 2003 can’t even sell it for $300,000. They can’t afford to make their payments.” Every week, the mayor gets word that a handful of homes have had their power shut off.

    And now, with a $55 million addition to Egg Harbor Township High School nearly complete, officials are faced with the reality that they may not be able to afford to staff it, heat it, or even open it.

    Enrollment has leveled off, the mayor said, with a slight drop this year. Gov. Christie’s severe budget cuts – in EHT’s case, 13 percent, or $5.4 million – have the school with its back against a $55 million wall.

    Last week, the school district introduced a $116.8 million budget that called for 70 layoffs, cuts to summer school and middle school sports, and a 13.5-cent increase in the tax rate: to $2.71 per $100 of assessed value. Superintendent Scott McCartney says he is trying to find money to add eight teachers to open at least part of the new wing, which was supposed to have 30 new teachers. The mayor is skeptical.

    “It was built with the thought that they would see continued growth in the school system,” McCullough said. “No one predicted the shutdown in the economy.”

    For many of the homeowners in this town that is home to the children’s park Storybook Land, their real-life fairy tales are often ending at the sheriff’s office. This month, out of 14,000 residential properties in the township, more than 900 homes were listed in default.

    In the streets of EHT, the houses on the sheriff’s-sale roster are all over town, on streets such as Thorobred Drive and Sugarberry Road – although unlike a carpool from cheerleading practice or a snowplow, the foreclosure notice is something neighbors don’t always share.

    “A lot of people lost their houses,” said Jose Rodriguez, 36, who, like about a quarter of the town, works in the casinos. He recently has given up hours to coworkers to avoid layoffs. A husband and father of two, Rodriguez has become, not by choice, an EHT frontiersman, his lovely two-story home holding its ground in the unfinished Silver Oaks development. Its builder, Kara Homes, went bankrupt, leaving Rodriguez without warranties and with few neighbors. Ryan Homes now owns the lots.

    “I wasn’t expecting this,” Rodriguez said. “Three years ago, everything was fine. Everybody was buying. This place went bankrupt six months after closing.”

    He paid the same price for his house as everyone else in EHT: “Too much,” he said.

    Nearly 7,000 homes were built between 1995 and 2009, peaking in 2003 with 842 homes. Last year, there were 188 homes built; there have been 42 so far this year. Nearly half the projects proposed since 2000 are unfinished or lack approvals.

    For years, local officials begged for help with all the growth. How would the schools, with 8,200 students now, keep up? How can you keep up with public works in a town of 70 square miles with 450 miles of streets and endless cul de sacs? Now, with the economy in recoil, municipal layoffs and tax increases imminent, a new question is in the air: Will the township’s population, which was about 39,500 in 2009, contract in ways that leave it burdened with too much construction? Already, property values are way down.

    “If we can’t get Atlantic City growing again,” said Michael Busler, a professor at Richard Stockton College who studies the local economy, “the market will stay stagnant.”

    In Atlantic County, meanwhile, new Sheriff Frank Balles’ chief of staff, Stephan L. Jackson I, has embarked on a mission to keep the sheriff away from homes, and keep people in their homes.

    Each day, he takes calls directly into his line from those in need of foreclosure help. Jackson started the R.E.A.L Help program (Realty Experts Aligned to Help) in response to the foreclosure crisis in Atlantic County, where RealtyTrac Inc. last month listed more than 2,300 default properties, 910 in EHT.

    Still, Jillian Taylor, a clerk in the sheriff’s office, says she is seeing more people staving off foreclosure, with banks now willing to negotiate or accept a short sale (helped by recently enacted federal incentives). “Mediation is changing a lot of stuff,” she said.

    Other agencies are branching out to help people before they lose their homes (the Atlantic City Rescue Mission’s new Egg Harbor office) or find them homes they can afford (Little Pink Houses, started by Kathryn Knoll, a mortgage broker who herself faced foreclosure). “If people don’t have anywhere to live, it becomes a much larger problem,” Jackson said.

    Like a lot of residents, Chrissy Bohs, 29, rode the EHT wave, buying a second property, a townhouse, as an investment. It has been at risk of foreclosure for the last year, and she is trying to sell it in a short sale. The casino pizza-shop manager and her daughter now live in a house on Sugarberry Drive that was also listed as being in pre-foreclosure, though Bohs says it is not at risk.

    Several neighbors are in the same situation, or worse. A couple of homes are vacant. “A lot of people bought in new developments, kept one to rent out. People were trying to flip them,” she said.

    “A lot of people overbought,” said Anthony Leone, an EHT real estate agent trying to sell a home at 62 Marshall Dr. in tony Ballenger Woods for $370,000 – about $100,000 less than the 2005 sales price, subject to bank approval. “The lenders are not eager for a short sale,” Leone said. “They’d rather foreclose to write it off.”

    Meanwhile, the sheriff’s sales continue, a dozen or more each Thursday at the Atlantic County Courthouse. Most properties revert to the bank with a pro forma $100 bid with nobody bidding. “By the time we get to them, they don’t have kitchens,” said Adam Palmisciano, who represents the banks at the sales. “It’s all bricks, sticks, and dirt. There’s no emotion in it anymore.”

    Joe Gurwicz, whose family has been building homes in Atlantic County for two generations, and whose vision of a Boca-like development on a golf course at the exclusive Founder’s Reserve remains undeveloped, said once hot EHT – which also saw its share of over-55 communities built – has gone dormant. “This is the first time in a long time we don’t see a light at the end of the tunnel,” he said. “There’s no financing.”

    At the corner of Delaware Avenue and Windchime Road, Brian Dallman, 46, waits with two other fathers for the kindergarten bus, which will deposit three matching little girls who go skipping around a tree. Last year, Dallman was laid off from his job at the Borgata for seven months, but was rehired. He held off foreclosure by persuading the bank to allow him to skip several payments. “It was scary,” he said.

    His house looks out at Hunter’s Run, a thus far empty Gurwicz development that touts homes for $400,000 but remains the site of muddy streets, dumped trash, and a standing late-night Red Bull-can-fashioned teenage bong party. “It’d be nice to see one of the big houses, with driveways and flowers,” he said.

    All in all, despite high taxes, Dallman still believes in the EHT fairy tale: a place where you can buy a home, raise a family, help coach your child’s team. But his thoughts drift to other fanciful places. “I’ve been working in casinos since I was 26,” he said. “I wish they’d build them in Orlando.”


  8. Final Doom says:

    Declare BK, void the union contracts, fire the teachers and let them negotiate to get their old jobs back.

    Then, fire every vice principal and useless 6-figure school bureaucrat.

    Then, execute some kongresscritters.

    Back to sleep.

  9. Final Doom says:

    AC and the surrounding area sucked even when things were booming.

    Now? Why not buy everybody a bus ticket out, then drop a neutron bomb?

  10. Final Doom says:

    Nothing in EHT a few good bulldozers can’t fix.

    Maybe they can grow our medical pot there.

  11. Essex says:

    8. It is all a distraction. The country is being looted by the top 1/2 of 1 percent. They see the population as a bunch of moronic serfs fighting over crumbs.

  12. Essex says:

    I on the other hand am a regular working stiff who got a couple of key breaks. I own real estate here in NJ. A tiny parcel of land with a comfy raised ranch. I watch the world spin around and try to make the most of every day. It’s not ‘that’ bad. Thankfully. But we are always one paycheck away from the streets. And that is the way the elites want it.

  13. cooper says:

    #6 me
    Should we be worried about this?


    from zero-

    “It couldn’t have happened to a nicer country. On March 18, with very little pomp and circumstance, president Obama passed the most recent stimulus act, the $17.5 billion Hiring Incentives to Restore Employment Act (H.R. 2487), brilliantly goalseeked by the administration’s millionaire cronies to abbreviate as HIRE. As it was merely the latest in an endless stream of acts destined to expand the government payroll to infinity, nobody cared about it, or actually read it. Because if anyone had read it, the act would have been known as the Capital Controls Act, as one of the lesser, but infinitely more important provisions on page 27, known as Offset Provisions – Subtitle A—Foreign Account Tax Compliance, institutes just that. In brief, the Provision requires that foreign banks not only withhold 30% of all outgoing capital flows (likely remitting the collection promptly back to the US Treasury) but also disclose the full details of non-exempt account-holders to the US and the IRS. And should this provision be deemed illegal by a given foreign nation’s domestic laws (think Switzerland), well the foreign financial institution is required to close the account. It’s the law. If you thought you could move your capital to the non-sequestration safety of non-US financial institutions, sorry you lose – the law now says so. Capital Controls are now here and are now fully enforced by the law. ”

    I don’t fully understand it but enough to answer yes,
    that’s some scary sh*t

  14. Mr Hyde says:

    Morning All.

    Lets not forget the entire point of this mess

    -from the article
    For most people, who are neither buying or selling, lower values reduce household wealth, making consumers less willing — and able — to borrow and spend.

    Debt = Wealth

    Consumption = Happiness

    Welcome to Newspeak.

  15. Final Doom says:

    hyde (14)-

    Just another step in the systematic enslavement of Amerika. We are so stupid and brainwashed that we’ve become complicit in our own downfall.

  16. Final Doom says:

    Even the Tea Party is a red herring.

  17. Mr Hyde says:


    Lets be brutally honest.

    They see the population as a bunch of moronic serfs fighting over crumbs.

    Its a more or less accurate generalization. People believe mortgage debt = wealth and a 42 inch plasma = happiness. We file lawsuits because a co-worker completes you on the way you might look on a particular day and as of 2006 67% of adults are overweight or obese.

  18. Final Doom says:

    Anyone really looking to fight the power is either stocking provisions and quietly recruiting people of action…or getting ready to leave the country.

    I’d suggest that the numbers in both groups are so small as to be insignificant.

  19. Final Doom says:

    hyde (17)-

    I prefer to look at us more like the people in Wall-E.

  20. frank says:

    Someone that I know of has hired illegals recently, now the illegals have turned to NJ Dept. of Labor and he is on a hook for back taxes, penalties and legal fees. Interesting enough, NJ Dept. of Labor does not care that those people were illegal in the country and the illegals know the law enough to file NJ Dept. of Labor complaints.
    Lesson to be learned here.

  21. Mr Hyde says:

    Doom 18

    the numbers in both groups are so small as to be insignificant.

    History says differently. It is both of these small groups which are usually the source of any revolution, peaceful, political or otherwise.

    I would suspect that various government agencies care little for the average joe getting upset but watch these small groups very closely so that they may promptly decapitate any movement before it crystallizes and goes mainstream.

  22. Family been there says:

    Re 13 -Cooper:

    My family been there. That is why back in 2002 my grandfather was haviong a fit as he saw where we were heading.

    Essentially upper middle class professional cuban family. Castro came in, about 1 yr later “Che”Guevara the jerk on those t-shirt who was running the Cuban National Bank said – anyone with over 1000 pesos has lost it & money is confiscated by govt. Followed by loss of foreign currencies & investment account, illegal to have foreign accounts, illegal to own precious metals, illegal to take precious metals & hard currency out of the country.

    A few relatives had foreign accounts, but mail was intercepted, so they could not communicate with bankers/lawyers.

    In short, this is the beggining of a power play. This is about CONTROL.
    If it was about tax revenue, they would do like Switzerland or how the US does to non-US account holders – they take a blind 30%, you get it back if you file an information return.

  23. Family been there says:

    Grim 22 in mod -important & relevant to thred

  24. Xroads says:

    Most people think housing is going to come roaring back. Most are echoing realtors but it’s pathetic how most can’t think and just repeat headlines

  25. John says:

    Housing will come roaring back as soon as Fed stops subsidizing it and lets it correct. Instead it is zombized.

    Xroads says:
    March 29, 2010 at 8:43 am
    Most people think housing is going to come roaring back. Most are echoing realtors but it’s pathetic how most can’t think and just repeat headlines

  26. Xroads says:

    Will the gvt let that happen?

  27. #25 – Housing will come roaring back as soon as Fed stops subsidizing it and lets it correct. Instead it is zombized.

    Hmmm, no horrible misspellings, short, on topic and to the point…

    Alright you! Back in character!

    Also, I agree.

  28. veto that - Lawrence Yun says:

    “Only about 7,400 residential real estate sales were recorded in Bergen and Passaic, down from 19,300 in 2005.”

    I hope this is telling of future prices.

  29. veto that - Lawrence Yun says:

    “Hardest hit last year were less-expensive markets where the median price sank 18 to 27 percent. Many affluent towns – typical price dropped 13 to 29 percent.”

    Just as many of us suspected.
    Lets summarize the YOY changes for NNJ.

    Low End/Inner Cities – Down 18-27%
    Middle Class/Avg – Down 8%
    High End/Affluent – Down 13-29%

  30. Mr Hyde says:


    Decpitation at work.

    I do not know the groups involved or what their objectives are/were, nor do i express any support for them. However this si exactly the sort of decapitation move you would expect to see in general terms.

    (CNN) — Federal authorities plan to unseal charges Monday against several people arrested in a series of weekend raids in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana, prosecutors in Detroit said Sunday.


  31. chicagofinance says:


    Paulson’s $32 Billion Funds Prompt Too-Big-to-Succeed Concerns


  32. Xroads says:

    Middle class down %8. As long as the loan is approved they’ll take it.

  33. Fiddy Cents on the Dollar says:

    I don’t know if this was discussed on the weekend thread, but the Keansburg Superintendent’s Retirement contract was voided.


    I don’t think we’re going to have to hold a benefit bake sale for the Supe. She still gets
    payouts for accrued vacation and sick time totaling over $184,000, and the collection of annual pension payments of $103,889.
    Oh, and don’t forget the lifetime healthcare.

    She’s sure going to miss that lovely parting gift of $556,290 in severance pay.

  34. Mr Hyde says:


    If she is like many people, she already spent that 500K and now has the bills to prove it.

  35. Fiddy Cents on the Dollar says:

    The real shame of it is….she’s probably already moved to a low-tax state. The pension & sick day money will benefit that locality.

  36. cooper says:

    #22 family-

    wonder if the US will be more pc and grandfather all existing foreign accounts or just select account holders

  37. #33 – I don’t get it… How is this stuff still going on?
    Gaming the the retirement payment like she did was so widespread and rampant that I knew about it as a kid in the 80’s. There was a pretty big scandal involving MTA workers doing exactly the same thing. How is anyone still allowed to use the last year’s pay (or last 5 years, 3, etc) given it is so susceptible to abuse, and known to be so.

  38. Nomad says:


    Lets be brutally honest.

    They see the population as a bunch of moronic serfs fighting over crumbs.

    Its a more or less accurate generalization. People believe mortgage debt = wealth and a 42 inch plasma = happiness.

    Stone walls do not a prison make nor iron bars a cage – however, misguided consumers buying things to keep up with the Joneses and try to gain happiness in the process become prisoners to their stuff. Once upon a time if you tethered yourself to an iron ball and jumped into a body of water, you would drown. No longer – again the end of personal responsibility in our country.

  39. Mr Hyde says:


    You cant have personal lasting freedom/liberty without personal responsibility

    The end of one heralds the end of the other

  40. BeachBum says:

    Hello all – been away from the board for a while – wanted to check in on the Shore real estate market these days. Seems like an inflation hedge is to get some leverage and I’ve started looking again at MLS. Shore, NJCoast, Fiddy, any thoughts?

  41. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [6] sl

    In a word, yes.

    I have long postulated (here and elsewhere), that currency and capital controls are a “canary in the coal mine” indicator of eventual fiscal problems.

    The goal is to make sure that capital cannot flee the country without being fully taxed. Essentially, this codifies existnig IRS policy, and gives more teeth to laws designed to end financial secrecy. Already, there is no real financial privacy in the US—the feds can get your financial records, and keep track of all manner of financial transactions. The foreign banks have been recalicitrant, and this law goes after both the foreign banks and their US depositors.

    So why is this important to you? Well, it means that the feds are turning over rocks to get money that they never turned over before. That smacks of a certain desperation, and it is a signal that they expect noncompliance and capital flight.

    Second, if you were going to start branding the cattle, wouldn’t it make sense to shut the gate? A move like this may presage more onerous taxes on the so-called “wealthy.”

    Personally, I think this will have a boomerang effect, and encourage more people on the fence to expatriate. Again, not large numbers of people (in the hundreds) but the tax loss will be as if the entire population of a small city expatriated.

    Remember, in a tax system, the wealthy and productive are like the healthy folks in an insurance pool. This is analogous to the fine one pays for not participating in Obamacare. In the insurance pool, if the healthy bolt, all that are left is the sick. In a tax system, if the wealthy bolt, well . . .

  42. Mr Hyde says:


    Even at the middle class level, i have to wonder at what point it would make sense o be “employed” by a “foreign” corporation who contracts your services to clients in the US?

  43. Mr Hyde says:

    I hear that there are a number of contracting firms in Ireland.

  44. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [30] hyde

    You aren’t surprised, are you?

    These arrests are as much political as for law enforcement.

    Seven folks on weapons charges? Hell, you can make that many arrests in one day in Compton or Camden. Hardly newsworthy. But this is scripted well, and is intended to serve notice on all others who may want to dip their toes in the “patriot” movement waters that the Feds are watching (as they have always been).

  45. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [42] hyde

    Nothing to be gained there, and the trick would be to be able to repatriate the income to a tax friendly jurisdiction. The new law attempts to prevent folks from doing what I suggested before, which is treaty forum shopping.

    Interesting issue though: There are some that think the new law violates our tax treaties, which are all based on a common template.

  46. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [38 nomad

    We are the new flesh. Welcome to Videodrome.

  47. borat obama says:


  48. borat obama says:

    Hiii fiveeeee

  49. Mr Hyde says:

    Nom 44

    Not surprised at all. I agree with you and thought it was a good example of federal strategy.

  50. Bystander says:

    This spring housing search is really grinding. I feel like I am in a Sergio Leone movie. Gun in hand, cigar in mouth but the gunfighters are sitting in their homes with fingers in their ears. Some of these homes have not moved their price in a year. Unreal. Good for them if they can wait it out indefinitely. I will be looking for the head looking out the window. I will just mosey over to the saloon and sit a little longer.

  51. RU says:

    Had a great argument over the weekend with my sister-in-law who is a teacher in an Abbott school district and continuously whines about Christies cuts. Of course, I do my homework before entering into any debate and knew how much her school district recieves in state aid as well as how many administrators are making over $100k. It was funny how, at first, she stuck up for all 126 employees making over $100k in her school district. Then I asked about the asst. superintendent who 15 years ago was a florist in town but made a nice donation to the mayor and got a job making over $150k per year despite having no background in education. She was also spouting off about how NJ schools rank #6 in the nation. I had to remind her that her school district continously ranks in the last half of the state on all standardized testing. I think she wanted to choke me after that one!!!!!

  52. Mr Hyde says:


    I wonder if the FEDs will do what they have done with some of the various protest organizers. That is they arrest them very publicly under sealed warrants and then after things settle down a bit they drop all charges as they probably wouldn’t hold up in court and they already got the PR they were looking for.

  53. Anon E. Moose says:


    I’m not looking to pump you for free advice, but what prevents the foreign jurisdiction from looking at the new law and saying “That’s nice. GFY.”? If the particular entity in question doesn’t have business contacts with the US, they have no need to obey – and should have no concern over ignoring.

  54. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [53] moose

    The law is not aimed at a foreign governments, but at companies doing business in the US.

    Where they run into some problems however, is when they will impose withholding on foreign companies in excess of the treaty limits. This is predicated on the idea that the foreign (assume Irish) company is a front for an owner in a tax haven. So if Irishco is selling widgets in the US, we don’t tax them (much) because we have a treaty. But suppose Irishco is owned 100% by a trust in the Cayman Islands. The USG would say that they can tax Irishco because it will eventually funnel money to its tax haven parent. Now, how do you think the Irish government will respond when the USG arbitrarily designates some of its resident companies as fronts for tax havens?

    Then there is the banking piece: Essentially, the US is starting a blacklist. If you don’t play ball with the US and dime out all your accountholders, you can’t do business here. Furthermore, US companies will be barred from doing business with foreign companies on the blacklist.

    Eventually, they will marry this idea to the OFAC SDN lists, In that case, if you are a taxpatriate, and you move money in dollars from Eurobank to Asiabank, and Eurobank uses its correspondent bank in NYC to do it, the USG can order the correspondent bank to freeze the funds. And yes, I have seen it happen generally. It doesn’t take a leap of faith to see this being applied to anyone/any company suspected of attempting to dodge US taxes.

    And since it is an in rem matter, it means there is no presumption of innocence. You have to prove you aren’t gaming US taxes, and with economic substance, that gets to be a very subjective test.

  55. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [52] hyde

    Wasn’t that what they did with Randy Weaver and the folks at Waco?

    I don’t recall that any of them were ever charged and convicted (and if some were, schab or plg will post a link, so I don’t feel compelled to look it up).

  56. NJCoast says:

    News bulletin on Monmouth County Association of Realtors site.


    Nationwide Open House Weekend – April 10-11, 2010

    The REALTOR® Organization is banding the industry together in a last push for consumers to take advantage of the tax credits, set to expire on April 30, 2010. As of April 10, buyers will only have 20 days to enter into a contract on a property in time to claim the first-time or repeat buyer tax credit!!!

  57. Mr Hyde says:


    If i was one of your hypothetical wealth clients, i would be packing my bags and buying the next ticket out if hadnt done so already.

    Oh well, i am just another wage slave, so i get to stay and enjoy the ride.

  58. relo says:

    51: Had a disparate conversation w/ my sis who teaches. Works in Morris Co. She was describing how admin jobs are essentially created for certain individuals and how the younger teachers are going to take the brunt of cuts. Then media will wonder why there’s a “teacher shortage” at some point in the near future.

  59. Mr Hyde says:

    Nom 55

    yes, they did use that tactic, though i dont know if they ever tried to actually follow through on any of the charges as a CYA after the event.

  60. ricky_nu says:

    anyone know anything about architects in Northern NJ, and wha thtey should cost?

    I have spoken to a few, and some are fixed fee, some are % of project (and even there they can charge between 5 and 15% of the project). I am trying to make heads or tails out of the wide variance in what these guys cost, and was wondering if anyone here has had an experience?

  61. JoeR says:

    This is an interesting case study about throwing money at schools/education. Here is the summary:

    For decades critics of the public schools have been saying, “You can’t solve educational problems by throwing money at them.” The education establishment and its supporters have replied, “No one’s ever tried.” In Kansas City they did try. To improve the education of black students and encourage desegregation, a federal judge invited the Kansas City, Missouri, School District to come up with a cost-is-no-object educational plan and ordered local and state taxpayers to find the money to pay for it.

    Kansas City spent as much as $11,700 per pupil–more money per pupil, on a cost of living adjusted basis, than any other of the 280 largest districts in the country. The money bought higher teachers’ salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal. The student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country.

    The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration.

    The Kansas City experiment suggests that, indeed, educational problems can’t be solved by throwing money at them, that the structural problems of our current educational system are far more important than a lack of material resources, and that the focus on desegregation diverted attention from the real problem, low achievement.

    Read the rest here:

  62. RU says:

    #58 That was the point I was trying to get across to my SIL. Look at the wasteful spending in each school district first and see if certain admin. positions are really necessary. After trimming the fat, then come ask for more money. Without doing that first, there will be no incentive for school districts to tighten the belt. The NJEA really needs to change their strategy. I’m in agreement with Christie in that you can’t just continue to tax and spend.

  63. RU says:

    #61 Newark spends about $18,000 per student and look at the test results. They still continue to underperform. 1. Not all the money gets to the students. 2. Parents need to take an interest in educating their children. It doesn’t stop when they leave the classroom.

  64. Mr hyde says:

    RU, Joe

    it’s not about the money. It’s all about the parents/family

    no one wants to touch that with a ten foot pole. It would require acknowledging that social issues such as race based performace differences must be addrressed at the cultural level and that money is not the answer

  65. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [268][prior thread] veto

    “Nom, every time nompound is mentioned i think of ‘lord of the flies’ where the character Ralph is played by Al.

    I wonder what would be a scarier place during an economic collapse mixed with food shortage riots? The nompound or the city of newark?”

    I think you have worn out the Lord of the Flies meme.

    But don’t think I don’t want to hear from you. If TSHTF, give us a call from Newark and let us know how things are.

  66. d2b says:

    Wondering if there are too many distractions in public schools that prevent teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic. My nine year old can create a power-point demonstration. However, I worry that they are not teaching reading comprehension.

    It seems his school is short-changing students out of the skills that they will use everyday when they get older.

    My father is 72 and a part-time clerk in our family store. He gives free, but embarrassing, lessons to teens that ask him how much 50% off is on a particular item.

  67. JoeR says:

    #61 – This experiment took place in 1985….”it was for the kids”.

  68. veto that - Lawrence Yun says:

    Nom, see link at post 30 for a likely outcome of the nompound.

  69. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [57] hyde

    Real problem is establishing foreign citizenship. In tax havens, that costs money. Think they want hoi polloi streaming in? Nope.

    The US is just about the easiest country in the world to get into. I really cannot think of an easier one.

    If anyone knows a jurisdiction that will give you a citizenship just for opening a bank account, and that doesn’t tax you on foreign earnings, please tell me. I haven’t found one yet.

    In the meantime, looking into permanent resident status in Canada.

  70. Shore Guy says:


    NJC is the real expert with respect to Shore housing prices but, here is my observation:

    The tanking economy has made some folks, who would have otherwise traveled to other places on vacation, decide to vacation down the Shore. This increased demand overall, and the weird boost Seaside seems to be getting from that MTV show with Sloppy, or Sloopy, or whatever her name is, and the other housemates, islikely to make this a rather good year for rentals. This seems to be spilling over in the minds of residents who believe that their homes are blessed with the aura of the Jersey Shore and are worth every darned penny of their asking prices. I have yet to see any real decline in asking prices since last spring and I lack the interest in going toe-to-toe with “sellers” who are so unrealistic.

    For now, our money is staying in our pockets. We don’t need another house that badly.

  71. Painhrtz says:

    Militia Arrests were based on sedition and attempts to start insurrection through law enforcement executions


  72. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [68] veto

    Only if your leader gets his way, comrade veto, only if he gets his way.

    So far, Obama hasn’t outlawed private land ownership.

    For the USG to be a threat to a nompound would mean that the USG is seizing foodstores and crops in rural areas to feed its constituents in the cities.

    IMHO, that would lead to all out civil war.

  73. Juice Springsteen HEHEHE says:

    You people need to chill. Stock market up again. All is well.

  74. Mr Hyde says:


    Perhaps i am missing reading the significance of the linked case, but i would expect the GOV to be a little more sophisticated then simply showing up and taking property/food production


    The Supreme Court, interpreting the United States Constitution’s Commerce Clause (which permits the United States Congress to “regulate Commerce . . . among the several States”) decided that, because Filburn’s wheat growing activities reduced the amount of wheat he would buy for chicken feed on the open market, and because wheat was traded nationally, Filburn’s production of more wheat than he was allotted was affecting interstate commerce, and so could be regulated by the federal government.

  75. Shore Guy says:

    “Militia Arrests were based on sedition and attempts to start insurrection through law enforcement executions”

    These cretins should be behind bars. Spies against their own nation should be shot (hanged is okay too) and people who take up arms against their own nation should expect the same treatment. I know the Founders expected this when they signed the Decleration of Independence.

    When one takes up arms against the king, one better win, or else one should expect to be executed.

    One may disagree with a host of policies, and may even be prudent to plan for a collapse of some kind, but those who promote armed insurrection are out of touch with the current realities in this nation. The ballot box still works in the USA.

  76. John says:

    Hoping for at least 23% on Primerica IPO this week!!!

    A bull market is a funny thing. I remember my friend in the 1990s who rented in this 30’s who was always confused as to why anyone would buy a home as his tech stocks paid him 40% a year from 1993 to 1999. He got out in time but most did not. Opposite happend between 2001 and 2005 when people said why would anyone buy stocks when homes go up 40% a year. Once again some got out and a most got burned.

    Tulip mania has been with us for a while, will take 2-5 more years for housing tulips to grow again.
    Juice Springsteen HEHEHE says:
    March 29, 2010 at 11:15 am
    You people need to chill. Stock market up again. All is well.

  77. Mr Hyde says:

    Let me clarify myself just in case.

    In regards to the militia men who got arrested i was simply pointing out a tactic used by the federal government and was not suggesting i agree with or support said militias. Nor was i commenting on the legitimacy or lack thereof in the arrests.

  78. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [75] shore

    Actually, from the news story, it appears that they were conspiring to kill cops.

    I say conspiring, which is a crime, rather than planning, which may not be.

    Since one does not have to be in a militia to want to kill cops, the militia angle is largely irrelevant.

    But, what I will be interested in seeing is whether the USG argues that joining the group, and participating in their ordinary “militia” activities, will be considered an “overt act” for conspiracy purposes.

    (Morpheus, can’t recall—does federal conspiracy require an overt act or not?)

  79. veto that - Lawrence Yun says:

    Shore, 75
    Thank you for clarifying your position on that. I couldnt agree more.

  80. Mr Hyde says:


    what changes it from “planning” to “conspiring” ?

  81. Essex says:

    Most people do not have the will to teach their kids. They think that being the kid’s friend is enough. Kids have plenty of friends. What they need is a parent.

  82. Nomad says:

    75 – good comment, thanks

    If anyone thinks these militia folks have your best interests at heart, you wrong, dead wrong.

  83. Shore Guy says:

    “Kids have plenty of friends. What they need is a parent.”


  84. Shore Guy says:

    “If anyone thinks these militia folks have your best interests at heart, you wrong, dead wrong.”

    Most off the ones I have ever seen interviewed seem like real knuckleheads who I would not trust with a BB gun, let alone high-powered weapons in a “military situation.

  85. veto that - Lawrence Yun says:

    Essex, 81 – Ahmen to that.

    I see parents in our own community who are so wrapped up in bribing their child to their good side, that they have literally created a monster.

  86. Shore Guy says:


    I used to see the same thing with athletics. Kids have a certain skill and they get praised for it and the things they get wrong or just plain bad behavior gets overlooked because of the single good trait nd eventually society gets someone who has never been told “No!” and who has been paraise, and over praised, for their one real talent that they end up as very damaged people with a sense of entitlement and greatness. And, as long as they are “gret” and put people in the seats their misdeads get sewpt under the rug. Kids need limits and society does itself a disservive when parents and others fail to provide them.

  87. Shore Guy says:

    praised, even

  88. Shore Guy says:

    back to the salt mine, B.O. needs the money for people who over spend.

  89. NJGator says:

    Clot – What are the odds that a short sale will go through if the property is listed at $650k with a $625k first loan, a $160k HELOC and $50k 3rd loan? Slim to none? And how does one get into this situation when the home was purchased for $439k? Must add the 2nd and 3rd loan banks to my death pool for BFF.

  90. veto that - Lawrence Yun says:

    “I used to see the same thing with athletics.”

    Yep youth sports are definately a huge stage for that type of behavior. Too often its the parents’ own failures and short-comings being projected onto their children. Sadly.

  91. DL says:

    We’ve been looking in Montgomery Co, Pa since Oct. Our agent told us there wasn’t much on the market but after the Super Bowl, tons of newly offered properties would be available as that was the beginning of the Spring selling season. Just got a note from her that nothing new was coming on the market and would we be interested in another location. We said yes, and asked her top show us properties in Doylestown. After two requests have still not heard back. Its worse than you think.

  92. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [80] hyde

    If I remember my bar review correctly, a conspiracy requires not only an illegal purpose, but an “overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.”

    Thus, it may be legal to talk abstractly about committing a crime (protected speech). But once someone in a group actually takes a step in that direction (even a legal step), it becomes a conspiracy.

  93. Shore Guy says:

    So, addition to a place within a short walk of a beach, we have been keeping our eyes peeled for a place in a hilly area with several acres and either on or overlooking a nice lake. So, we find out about a place, with 5 acres overlooking a nice lake in NY. It is not really near anything (not quite what we are looking for) and it is also smaller than we want, but, hey, we are openminded. Still, given what it is, it strikes me as over priced, so I go to Zillow. Now, every property I have ever seen on Zillow has a “zestimate” that was well above the assessed value and well above what the properties are either currently listed for or for what the properties ultimately sell.

    This property? Drum roll please, is listed at what percentage of the Zestimate?

    Any guesses?

  94. Shore Guy says:

    ““overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.”

    Which does not take much.

  95. Shore Guy says:

    Before lunch ends, any guesses?

  96. Morpheus says:

    As I recall from law school, conspiracy requires an “overt act”. Perhaps even attending the milita “social” could count. Not familar with Fed statute. Try to stay out of Fed. Ct.

    BTW: the FID arrived 20 days after finger printing. Now wife is trying to back out of her agreement to allow guns into the house. Will have to work on her somemore.

  97. Libtard says:


    Of course, Zillow is a complete waste of space.

  98. sas3 says:

    Shore Guy says:

    “The ballot box still works in the USA.”

    The teabaggers are very impatient and know that they will continue to lose elections!

    If we apply the same logic the teabaggers use against similar “plans” by musli.m extremists, they’d be in Guantanomo already (along with their friends and friends of friends — reminds me of Kaiser Sose [sp?]).


  99. Mr Hyde says:


    If you dont mind dropping the money send her to either a private training class or a women only training class. Guns For Hire runs a very good private class.

    I think the private class runs about 300 and includes live fire. They do a very good job of making novices feel comfortable.

    If you go with her, keep your mouth shut and just go along for the ride. Getting comfortable with weapons is a big first step for many people who have not grown up around them or have other experience with them.

    Like many things the first experience can set the long term outlook.

  100. Libtard says:

    Saw that how to train a dragon film last night with the family. Morons at the counter didn’t know how to ring up my General Mills free movie vouchers for the two adults. Ended up costing us a total of $6 for admission (with 3-D glasses).

    The film was really excellent and if you have kiddies, I highly recommend it.

  101. Shore Guy says:


    Ha! Stu, that was my estimate of what the place was worth, assuming a 5% yearly increase since they purchased it.

    No, they are looking for 169% of the Zestimate.

    I told the agent, thanks but no thanks.

    Make an offer, lets see what happens.

    Thanks but no thanks.

  102. Shore Guy says:

    Keyser Söze

  103. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [102] shore

    Who is Keyser Soze?

    (wasn’t that the recurring theme question?)

  104. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [98] sas3

    So by that logic, if the conservatives get a majority, can they vote to impose special conditions on liberals, or tax them more heavily, or take their property for the commonweal?

    I mean, why not? If you have a majority, where’s the limit?

    Adolf had popular support too.

  105. Mr hyde says:

    Shore 101

    why not? That is what banks andvrhe like are getting for worthless assets when they sell to the government

  106. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [94] shore guy

    Very true. Which is why you see so many federal prosecutions for conspiracy.

    And they get convictions, simply through the weight of the process. You can vindicate yourself but the cost is prohibitive, and a lot of guilty pleas are the result of a cost-benefit analysis.

  107. Shore Guy says:


    Indeed it was.

  108. Shore Guy says:


    The other day, I believe it was you who asked me what I thought about the toperdo attack on the ROK patrol boat and I said It sounded more like a mine:

    Today (from the Denver Post):

    SKorean defense min: Warship may have struck mine
    Posted: 03/29/2010 10:50 AM
    More Nation / World >>
    SEOUL, South Korea—A naval mine dispatched from North Korea may have struck the South Korean warship that exploded and sank near the Koreas’ disputed sea border, the defense minister told lawmakers Monday, laying out several scenarios for the maritime disaster.
    Defense Minister Kim Tae-young said there was no sign of a direct attack from rival North Korea, but military authorities have not ruled out North Korean involvement in the sinking of the Cheonan late Friday night.


  109. Shore Guy says:


    At this point, I suspect a Google search would constitue just such an act.

  110. Libtard says:

    Who is Keyser Soze?

    You just lost 2 coolness points to subtract from your 47 hit points.

  111. House Hunter says:

    ok, this is either a good or bad thing. We renewed our phone plan and upgraded to talk text and web. Only had talk for the longest time, with a discount it basically comes out the same. My son (13) took my phone and set njrereport to my favorites and handed it back to me, with no prompting from me…that is ashame

  112. Libtard says:

    “My son (13) took my phone and set njrereport to my favorites and handed it back to me, with no prompting from me…that is ashame”

    Maybe Grim is the daddy?

  113. EWellie says:

    Shore Guy,

    I see the same thing here. So-called sellers are still listing in Somerset at ’05 prices. It’s nuts. Mid-range houses are sitting and sitting, with sellers expecting to get what their neighbor sold for in ’06. It’s insane. Our town saw a 7.8% drop last quarter in selling prices–that’s with very low volume and God only knows how much sellers are handing over in closing costs. I so wish this market would get real. When houses went up 150% during the bubble, it seems that a 15-20% decline in prices is nothing to speak of!

  114. Shore Guy says:


    The key is for buyers to NOT buy. Mrs. Shore and I didn’t NEED another house, so we refused to buy into the feeding frenzy of past years. We still do notneed another place, so we refuse to support urealistic pricing by buying things that we can still afford (even if over priced). To over spend is insane. For now, we wait.

    To friends who say that we are throwing away money by not having a mortgage and getting the tax deduction, we now just smile. If they want to spend a dollar just to get 35 cents back, thay can have at it.

  115. Shore Guy says:

    they, even

  116. Shore Guy says:

    “So-called sellers are still listing in Somerset at ‘05 prices.”

    I guess it doesn’t cost them anything to list, and they might just snag a sucker. Until agents and brokers start refusing to accept listings, there is no reason for the non-seller seller not to list.

  117. Confused in NJ says:

    81.Essex says:
    March 29, 2010 at 11:45 am
    Most people do not have the will to teach their kids. They think that being the kid’s friend is enough. Kids have plenty of friends. What they need is a parent

    The new state has a habit of taking away your kids when the complain about your parenting.

  118. RU says:

    Looks like someone finally has the right idea. Let’s see how the NJEA can put the spin on this one.


  119. Libtard says:

    “I guess it doesn’t cost them anything to list, and they might just snag a sucker. Until agents and brokers start refusing to accept listings, there is no reason for the non-seller seller not to list.”

    Yup. Seen lots of homes that I thought sold at insane prices last Fall, reappear this Spring with slightly lower, but still insane pricing. Doesn’t cost a penny to list.

  120. Shore Guy says:

    One more reason for me to stop giving money to the RNC:

    replace * with o to activate link


  121. Shore Guy says:

    “The new state has a habit of taking away your kids when the complain about your parenting.”

    For most kids, it would be a hard lesson learned in crying wolf.

  122. EWellie says:

    Shore Guy–I’m with you 100% on everything you said. People in NJ need some serious remedial math courses. I have yet to meet a person with a mortgage who truly understands all those “tax advantages.” IMO, nobody is ever throwing away money to rent in NJ. In a state with taxes this high, you can easily rent a large apartment for the same amount (or less) than your average tax bill and insurance alone.

  123. Xroads says:

    Ew and shore

    as I said before middle class/ median price only down %8 . if you approve it they will borrow! There doesn’t seem to be thought behind the action other then it’s a great time to buy

  124. EWellie says:

    Someone told me, “Now is the best time to buy” in an email literally 20 minutes ago. What a mantra!

  125. Final Doom says:

    RU (51)-

    Her district is a fail. All the supt’s and teachers should be summarily fired, and they should either start over from scratch with minimal budgeting or have a private firm come in and run the show.

    Another reason the US is irretrievably doomed is the constant reward of failure.

    Back to work. Got a lotta losers to support.

  126. Final Doom says:

    hyde (52)-

    Yep. The ones they think are really dangerous, they pull a Waco on them.

    Makes for great TV.

  127. Confused in NJ says:

    122.Shore Guy says:
    March 29, 2010 at 1:57 pm
    “The new state has a habit of taking away your kids when the complain about your parenting.”

    For most kids, it would be a hard lesson learned in crying wolf.

    Had a friend from Hillsboro whose kids were removed by child protective services after their teacher overheard them talking about mean mommy & daddy. Cost him $14K in legal fees to get them back.

  128. sas3 says:

    #105 Nom…

    Based on Goodwin Law, you lose the argument :)

  129. Final Doom says:

    Actually, it doesn’t.

    “The ballot box still works in the USA.”

  130. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [129] sas3

    So does nearly every liberal I ever argued with ;-)

  131. Final Doom says:

    gator (89)-

    Actually, you should forget about the junior liens in assessing that situation. It appears that the first mortgage will come close to being satisfied, so if they bless the deal, it could easily go through.

    The second and third on that house might get a $1,000 to $3,000 offer from the first lienholder to allow the short sale. It’s not much, but it beats the $0.00 they are guaranteed to get if they force the first to foreclose.

  132. Final Doom says:

    morph (96)-

    Hold her at gunpoint until she gives in.

    “BTW: the FID arrived 20 days after finger printing. Now wife is trying to back out of her agreement to allow guns into the house. Will have to work on her somemore.”

  133. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [111] libtard

    I am surprised you awarded me any points at all.

    Besides, you can get t-shirts that ask “who is keyser soze?” They all lose cool points too.

  134. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [129] sas3

    Actually, I love Godwin’s Law, and I regularly invoke a variant of it when starting a debate.

    One time, I told a guy that I’d be happy to debate his issues, but he had to put up $100 in $10 bills. And each time he called me an “ist” of any stripe (race, sex, whatever), or called me or the right nazis, or made any such comparison, I get to take $10.

    He decided he didn’t want to debate.

  135. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    And where is Keyser Soze from?

    Why, right here in New Jersey, of course.


  136. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [115] shore

    ” If they want to spend a dollar just to get 35 cents back, thay can have at it.”

    Yeah, it took me a couple of times to get that through to the wife.

  137. Shore Guy says:

    let me make sure I understand this:

    The economy is shaky because of debt.

    Personal income rose .1% last month

    Personal Spending was up .3% last month.

    And, Wall Street takes this as a positive thing?

  138. yo'me says:

    545 PEOPLE — By Charlie Reese

    Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and
    then campaign against them..

    Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are
    against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

    Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and
    high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

    You and I don’t propose a federal budget. The president does.

    You and I don’t have the Constitutional authority to vote on
    appropriations. The House of Representatives does.

    You and I don’t write the tax code, Congress does.

    You and I don’t set fiscal policy, Congress does.

    You and I don’t control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.

    One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one president, and nine Supreme
    Court justices equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are
    directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the
    domestic problems that plague this country.

    I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem
    was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its
    Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally
    chartered, but private, central bank.

    I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason.
    They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator,
    a congressman, or a president to do one cotton-picking thing. I don’t
    care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The
    politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the
    lobbyist promises, it is the legislator’s responsibility to determine
    how he votes.

    Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that
    what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con
    regardless of party.

    What separates a politician from a normal human being is an excessive
    amount of gall. No normal human being would have the gall of a
    Speaker, who stood up and criticized the President for creating
    deficits…. . The president can only propose a budget. He cannot
    force the Congress to accept it.

    The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole
    responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and
    approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House?
    Nancy Pelosi. She is the leader of the majority party. She and fellow
    House members, not the president, can approve any budget they want. If
    the president vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree

    It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace
    545 people who stand convicted — by present facts — of incompetence
    and irresponsibility. I can’t think of a single domestic problem that
    is not traceable directly to those 545 people. When you fully grasp the
    plain truth that 545 people exercise the power of the federal
    government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to

    If the tax code is unfair, it’s because they want it unfair.

    If the budget is in the red, it’s because they want it in the red ..

    If the Army & Marines are in IRAQ, it’s because they want them in IRAQ

    If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement
    plan not available to the people, it’s because they want it that way.

    There are no insoluble government problems.

    Do not let these 545 people shift the blame to bureaucrats, whom they
    hire and whose jobs they can abolish; to lobbyists, whose gifts and
    advice they can reject; to regulators, to whom they give the power to
    regulate and from whom they can take this power. Above all, do not let
    them con you into

    the belief that there exists disembodied mystical forces like “the
    economy,” “inflation,” or “politics” that prevent them from doing what
    they take an oath to do.

    Those 545 people, and they alone, are responsible.

    They, and they alone, have the power.

    They, and they alone, should be held accountable by the people who are
    their bosses.

    Provided the voters have the gumption to manage their own employees…

    We should vote all of them out of office and clean up their mess!

  139. Shore Guy says:


    If not the ballot box what? There are serious problems facing the nation but what realistic alternatives are there but “voting out the bums”?

  140. sas3 says:

    Clot, 2008 was the first “clean” presidential victory since ’96. Ballot boxes do work sometime. Teabaggers helped pass the healthcare vote by eating one of their own in NY election(no pun intended).

    I think jobs numbers will improve soon — chances are this week’s numbers will be a positive. If the job numbers keep improving — the financial markets seem stabilized, and the current low inflation is good news, O is actually going after AQ in Pak. Soon, the debate on Faux will be “is this good economy the result of Dubya’s vision”?

    I worry about the next bubble (if we are not already in some sort of a bubble).


  141. All "H-Train" Hype says:


    Watched the trailer. Pretty interesting. I used to know a bunch of kids who went ot Paterson Eastside when Joe Clark was there. They said the movie was spot on. He knew every kid in the school and bounced out all the thugs/drug dealers. They said it was the first time they actually learned in school.

    I have a former co-worker from my last job who went to Irvington High. Metal detectors at the doors and the teachers are afraid of the students. She is exceptionally bright and was basically escorted between classes. She said that her parents required her to come home after school and not go outside after dark.

  142. Mr Hyde says:


    The ballot box has lost a lot of its effectiveness. At this point i think non-violent mass public disobedience would be the most effective route. But that would require a critical mass of people who care and are willing to act.

  143. frank says:

    How come I have not seen this article on this blog yet??

    Mortgage Increases Blunted


  144. Mr Hyde says:


    Here is a question for you to mull over. Wat happens as boomers begin to withdraw funds from all levels of retirement assets as they are hit by unemployment at the same time that they would start to retire anyway.

  145. NJGator says:

    FD 132 – Yeah, but it’s too bad that we would still have to lowball that house. Will have to watch and see if it goes to Sheriff’s sale.

  146. All "H-Train" Hype says:

    Frank 145:

    That because most of the people who have defaluted on the Option arm loans did so 2 years ago.

  147. Barbara says:

    *grumble grumble…..food stamps and blackberries…….grumble grumble….and bottles of soda “ring those up for cash” grumble grumble……won’t bag own groceries…..grumble grumble…..*

  148. Morpheus says:

    clot at 133:
    now you are being silly. just spoke to her and assured her that I will take a firearms safety course and personal shooting course. Plus, a fellow associate in the firm will take me to the range to try out his hi-point carbine. She is nervous but it looks like we can proceed.

    slowly but surely, we will move to full gun ownership as we slowly move to glorious socialism—Long live the glorious October revolution! (just jokin jamil!).

  149. Final Doom says:

    shore (141)-

    Vote with a bullet. Ballots don’t work, because the only people who aspire to elective (and appointed) office are career criminals.

    Look at yourself. In another time, you would be an excellent candidate. Now, you have the good sense to realize it would not only be impossible to get elected but also damaging to you personally. Your own situation shows just how damaged beyond repair the whole shitpile is.

  150. Final Doom says:

    Those who are not criminals when elected soon become criminals once taking office.

    Prime NJ example? Rush Holt.

  151. Final Doom says:

    sastry (142)-

    We have entered the next bubble: one of false hope based upon fabricated news and events.

    Of course, when this bubble bursts, it’s to the mattresses.

    Faith no more.

  152. Final Doom says:

    barb (149)-

    Nobody’s forcing you to live in the bowels of hell.

  153. Final Doom says:


    Do you know what a BLUMF is?

    If not, you’re not as ghetto as you think.

  154. Final Doom says:

    morph (150)-

    Being silly is fun.

    Besides, your wife should know by now a fully-armed family is a happy family.

  155. sas3 says:


    “In another time, you would be an excellent candidate. Now, you have the good sense to realize it would not only be impossible to get elected but also damaging to you personally.”

    The mess with primaries is the major reason. Centrists on either side have to toughen up during primaries, and then have to quickly move to center.

    Would Romney be trashing the health care bill if he didn’t have to fight through the primaries?


  156. Barbara says:

    I wasn’t in the bowels, a couple towns over. I don’t know BLUMF and glad not to be as ghetto, there is still hope.

  157. Barbara says:

    But a lot of food stampers go to this store. She was a lifer, not a recent

  158. Final Doom says:

    Barb (159)-

    I know people who have 6-figure combined incomes who scam WIC coupons for themselves.

    There are not enough bullets in Cabela’s for these leeches.

  159. Final Doom says:

    Scamming WIC coupons is an old Realtor trick.

  160. Punch My Ticket says:

    Nom [69],

    In the meantime, looking into permanent resident status in Canada.


  161. Final Doom says:

    Mish, on David Rosenberg’s report today:

    “For example, with mutual fund cash levels at all time record lows, it is difficult to place any credence in the widespread thesis “the market is climbing a wall of worry”.

    Indeed, there is no general worry, unless you mean fear of missing more of the rally in equities. The only other widespread worry is fear of massive inflation or fear the dollar will collapse. From where I sit, neither seems very likely.

    For all this talk about worries, the one thing not on anyone’s worry list is a huge market decline and the distinct possibility the market bottom is not even in. No one is worried about that. However, they should be.”


    IMO, Rosenberg has been spot on for going on three years. His letter today describes a sort of perfect storm that’s about to hit. Simple premise: USTs need support/equities get shanked.

  162. sas3 says:

    Hyde #146

    If the boomers are anyway retiring and are hit by unemployment, they will try to stretch their savings for long time (when markets are bad, it isn’t the right time to withdraw; and when markets are good, the fear of missing out the big returns will keep the money in there).

    US lifestyle is still very luxurious compared to many other countries. There is a lot of fat to cut, which isn’t good for the overall economy, but will land us to a more stable (lower) quality of life.

    Short term, the boomers aren’t going to pull all their money in one shot, so…


  163. Final Doom says:

    punch (162)-

    I like the Canadian child sports/fitness deductions.

    Of course, we here in Amerika prefer our kids belly up to the TV with heaping mugs and bowls full of HFCS.

    Better to create good lifetime consumers of statins, stents and artery-cleanings.

  164. Final Doom says:

    sastry (164)-

    If their spending history is any indication, boomers will blow whatever they pull out on mindless, discretionary stuff. Also, little of it will be passed on to the next generation.

    The only people in the US looking at a lower quality of life are fools like us who keep subsidizing the leeches. Because, as always, the leeches and deadbeats win.

  165. chicagofinance says:

    Doom: everyone is raving about the Red Bull stadium…let’s amp up the GTG rhetoric….

  166. Final Doom says:

    relo (166)-

    I’ll listen to Doug Kass again once he decides to separate himself from Kramer.

    Until then, I will continue to believe he’s only a stalking horse.

  167. Final Doom says:

    chi (168)-

    I’m there! The GTG should be prefaced and then nightcapped by a crawl of a few of Harrison’s finer drinking establishments.

    From reports I’ve gotten, the bars are packed on game day.

  168. Final Doom says:

    Watched Dead Bulls on TV vs Chicago over the weekend.

    They are a good team now.

  169. Painhrtz says:

    Hype SIL taught at one of the Paterson high schools, had the grades changed on her star basketball student by one of the administrators cause “you don’t want to deprive the team and the child a potential championship because he can’t read” She was out of teaching the next year. When she is back in Jersey she still runs into some of her ex-students they all thank her for making them learn. Scary

  170. Dissident HEHEHE says:


    I’ve been waiting for it to happen for over a year now. I don’t want to be anywhere but short equities once Bergabe’s hand is forced.

  171. Essex says:

    Sorry but I cannot subscribe to the b.s. everybody gets a trophy culture. Oh well.

  172. Essex says:

    Too much of the old man in me I suppose — a realist. Some would say *sshole.

  173. relo says:

    169: Perhaps, but I don’t think the concept applies to this particular missive.

  174. Essex says:

    165. I blame a bunch of good country cooking for my statin. Heck it’s better than having a stroke. Ask my grandad. Oh he’s dead.

  175. relo says:

    Also, posted as I thought it was apropos because while at Costco this weekend, even my better half kept saying “WTF” to prices when reaching for foodstuffs.

  176. Punch My Ticket says:

    Clot [165],

    $500/kid is small change.

    I think Nom is going to be thoroughly unimpressed with the tax liability in Canada of a $200k wage slave lawyer like him. Canada’s tax system is built to benefit two classes of people:

    – portfolio income recipients, who pay essentially zip up to about $100k per person and max 20% above that
    – the working stiff, especially with kids, who makes no more than $25k per year; if you make less, the government shovels money into your pockets to get you to the equivalent of $25k

    Earn more than $25k on your own in Canada and you pay for the above two.

  177. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    I still get a kick out of the inflation trade. In the long run I wholeheartedly agree that is the end game, but right now there’s so much friggin debt out there we might see three more cycles of collapse/inflate before hyper-inflation appears. That’s Bergabe’s whole game plan; try to turn this into a slow motion train wreck so the TPTB don’t lose control of the sheeple.

  178. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [179] punch

    Actually, that works just fine for me.

    I wasn’t planning on (and doubt that I lawfully could) practice law in Canada.

  179. Punch My Ticket says:

    BTW, it’s not even $500/kid. That’s just the number against which you get a tax credit at the lowest federal rate. The “tax break” is $75/kid.

    Big whoop!

  180. Painhrtz says:

    HEHE – In some ways I always thought that was going to be the play.

    Keep adjusting normal downward on a slow scale keeps people from rioting. With a disinterested group like the Amerikan public it can be really easy. suddenly you wake up one morning and your just glad you have milk. You remember the days you had milk and cereal but they sadly seem like a dream because it was so long ago.

  181. Punch My Ticket says:

    Nom, we’ll have to have a talk. I can give you all sorts of tips on becoming a fry cook or low level cleark and then grifting a perfectly reasonable lifestyle out of Ottawa and your province of choice. B.C. – NOT Bergen County – is my specialty.

  182. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    “You remember the days you had milk and cereal but they sadly seem like a dream because it was so long ago.”

    As long as there’s the outside shot they can end up on a reality TV show most Americans will be happy.

  183. Barbara says:

    kind of like when gas was 1.70 a gallon forever, then it spiked up to 4ish, then back down to 2.75. BARGIN!

  184. Barbara says:

    BTW, go to HULU and watch Jerseylicious. It makes Jersey Shore look like a PBS historical documentary.

  185. relo says:

    185: Why settle? As long as we’re dreaming let’s hit the lottery too.

  186. Barbara says:

    its the .99 syndrome. Somehow that .99 is never .1 cent shy of a buck, its just invisible.

    The new symbol for mass denial? .99

    you bitches better give me credit.

  187. relo says:


    Another trainwreck to distract my simple mind.

    There, I’ve been outed to Jerseylicious.

  188. Shore Guy says:

    “. At this point i think non-violent mass public disobedience would be the most effective route”


    Non-violent civil disobedience has a place. The key is nonviolence. Those who use this technique recognize 1) they lose effectiveness when they physically harm people or property and 2) they will suffer consequences for civil disobedience (arrest, etc).

  189. d2b says:

    We were on WIC when my son was born because he was premature and at the time all premature kids went on WIC. Wife would go to the office in her new car and sit in a waiting room with mothers with lots of screaming kids.

    I guess we were kicked off when the kid was bigger or the first income check. I do know that the workers loved her because our son was so well behaved and my wife was so polite. She saw it as a gift not an entitlement. She said that others would argue because they felt that they did not get enough.

  190. Essex says:

    Happy Passover!

  191. Juice Box says:

    Should I break out the liquor distilled from wheat in celebration?

  192. Final Doom says:

    punch (179)-

    Yep. I have family in Canada (Montreal). They live like dogs, think they have it great and think we’re all gangsters and thieves. They have also been completely brainwashed to think that personal ambition and hard work are bad (except for my hockey-mad nephew).

    I think the only difference between them and most of the people in our deep South is the fact that their idea of a big night out is poutine at Tim Horton’s, and folks here of a certain status prefer Cracker Barrel.

  193. Final Doom says:

    punch (184)-

    Canada offers the perfect lifestyle support system for the total slacker.

  194. I found this site on faves.com social bookmarking site. I liked it and gave you a fave! By the way I also loved your blog theme! Did you develop it yourself or is it downloadalbe from somehwere?

  195. Final Doom says:

    Shore (191)-

    Let’s ask Dr. King how that worked out for him.

    “. At this point i think non-violent mass public disobedience would be the most effective route”

    Faith no more. No half measures. Vote with a bullet.

  196. Final Doom says:

    sean (194)-

    The king of liquors is distilled from corn.

  197. Final Doom says:

    Wife and I having a nice Knob Creek to end our seder.

    I’m pretty sure the Jews made whiskey at some point during the 40 years in the wilderness. If not, they needed to.

  198. Final Doom says:

    …what…no corn in the desert?

    Never mind.

  199. Final Doom says:

    A happy Passover to all.

    And, locusts to Frank.

  200. Punch My Ticket says:

    Clot, the burning question of the day is ..

    Why doesn’t Cracker Barrel offer poutine?

  201. Juice Box says:

    John you reading this in the Daily News?

    “‘Jersey Shore’ was all young kids, but this ranges from 22-year-olds all the way up. It’s for people of all ages because it’s not like 52-year-olds aren’t getting drunk and fist-pumping at the club.”

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv/2010/03/16/2010-03-16_get_a_real_dose_of_jersey_from_styles_new_reality_series_jerseylicious_.html#ixzz0jbvdR4Zx

  202. Final Doom says:

    Prepare for oblivion:

    March 29, 2010 Total US Debt Subject To Limit:


    Total debt at the beginning of March: $12,383,717,000,000

    Net debt (includes Trust Funds and marketable debt) issuance month to date: $246 billion

    Net Bills issued: $107 billion
    Net Notes issued: $138 billion
    Net Bonds issued: $13 billion
    Debt limit: $14,294,000,000,000.

    Debt capacity: $1.665 trillion and dropping. At $220 million per month in net new issuance as projeced by the CBO, this will last the US just under 8 months.

  203. Final Doom says:

    punch (203)-

    Because it looks like a plate of diarrhea?

  204. Yikes says:

    Anyone have an experiences, good or bad, with Blue Haven Pools or Anthony Sylvan Pools?

    even if you’ve heard horror stories, kindly pass those on, too.

    we’ve found plenty of negative stories on the internet (par for the course w/ national companies), and the next step is to check with the better business bureau.

  205. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    Sigh… Time to get ready for another night in the pit.

    WOW! OMFG – someone mentioned Keyser Soze???

    You must be a “Usual Suspect!”

    What a great flick… well edited and at times predictable, but then not… *loved* that movie!


  206. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    Final Doom,

    Aw c’mon now… not just any diarrhea!

    Diarrhea with clusters of tapeworms in it… add ketchup?

    Like wormy diarrhea that’s been shit through bleeding hemorrhoids.

    I give you poutine


  207. Al "The Thermostat" Gore says:

    Civil disobedience, historically, is far more effective than any other form of resistance to tyranny.

    Its all about self preserverance now. When the bear attacks the camp you dont have to be the fastest guy in the camp. You just have to be faster than the slowest guy.

    Anyone that has studied history knows where all this ends up. The smart folks are sucking as much money out of the system before it all goes into the darkness of Communism and or fascism.

  208. still_looking aka Tan-Less says:

    Happy Passover to everyone.

    And locust? for freak frank?

    Nah… I’m thinking more like a roomful of poisonous snakes, toads and hail.


  209. Outofstater says:

    #206 #209 Love ya both but those posts are making me seriously consider giving up food as a daily thing. EWWWWWW.

  210. njescapee says:

    Happy Passover All

  211. Bystander says:


    A donation long overdue is on its way. Please remember to tip your blog hosts.

  212. Barbara says:

    its quite an ugly tale, Passover. Hard to know what to tell the kids, because they will beg the obvious question. Yes they will.

  213. Yikes says:

    instead of doing his job as a cop, he was have sexx with some chick.


    “The police say that Neri, 32, and the other officer formed a threesome with the woman on Sept. 1 and had sex with her on a downed tree in a wooded area behind Fay Memorial Field off Dallas Avenue. At the time, both officers were in uniform and working day shifts.”

  214. sas3 says:

    Barb, please do share the details.

    Same problems with Hindu scriptures from other religions — starts with a King has X number of wives (kids ask why?), and quickly go downhill (no kids for King, so priest comes over and does some prayer and queens get pregnant — young ones won’t ask questions here but…)

    Though that is all PG13 compared to the passover stuff, which is serious R for horror. The Sati and Untouchability stuff in Hinduism are also R material, though they the books tie clean up them via “prior birth sins” and “next birth rewards”.


  215. Barbara says:


    and yet Jesus said “believe as a child.” I wonder if he really knew the implications of this statement. Children know right from wrong, and they will call you out on it. If their childhood is anything like mine, they will be told that their naturally pure moral state is actually prideful and they are headed for eternal damnation if they don’t get with the program.
    Good times.

  216. Essex says:

    I love kids. Seriously. They are amazing. Mine especially. Not sure I could love anything or anybody more.

  217. Barbara says:

    the question is…..do we in the west get our sense of fairness, justice from a judeochristian history, or from The Enlightenment? I go back and forth on this. Its the Puritan Vs Founding Fathers argument. I think its more the later, but we paperclip Christianity to it to keep it all copacetic.

  218. Essex says:

    Nope…I got mine from my dad and a healthy dose of Jewish guilt and angst. When you grow up with Holocaust survivors you learn pretty quickly how to throw a punch.

  219. Essex says:


    The mental conversion of flesh and blood living creatures into cartoon creatures possessing bourgeois Judeo-Christian attitudes and morals.

  220. Barbara says:

    I call it Pixarification and it includes machines as well as animals.

  221. sas says:

    just had the Rouladen at Zum Stammtisch.

    it was fantastic !!


  222. sas says:

    “JPMorgan, Lehman, UBS Named in Bid-Rigging Conspiracy ”

  223. Yikes says:

    so michael steele is ousted as RNC top dog by week’s end, right?


    (sorry if i missed it, just catching up on comments now)

  224. Final Doom says:

    barb (215)-

    Why is tonight different from all other nights?

    Dad, tell us again how God whacked all the firstborn!!!!

  225. Final Doom says:

    barb (220)-

    Tabula rasa. All about the tabula rasa.

  226. Final Doom says:

    sx (222)-

    Reading “Maus” will fix that.

  227. Sas3 says:


    btw, killer typo on my part…

    When I said “share all the details”, I meant “share all the details with us about how the discussions went” [to compare notes] and not “share all details with the kids” [which may scar them!].


  228. Final Doom says:

    Why Barca is the best team in the world.

    “It’s a philosophy of football. Win or lose I want us to show who we are and what kind of football we believe in. I want my team to go out and be themselves.

    Those of us lucky enough to work at this level in our profession must never forget that it’s only a sport. We live in a world where everything is spiralling in cost and many people need to make a big sacrifice in order to go and watch a game of football.

    “So for me it all makes sense, the effort, the work, the planning, the concentration and the discipline, if you do it for the people. The manner in which we play is a demonstration of the respect we have for the people who pay for a ticket or pay money to watch matches on television.”

    Pep Guardiola

  229. Shore Guy says:

    Tonight we taste the bitter herb of the TARP

  230. Shore Guy says:

    An NAR seder would have parsley to represent the spring selling season ans salt water to represent the tears that RE agents cry when it does not materialize.

  231. chicagofinance says:

    206.Final Doom says:
    March 29, 2010 at 7:28 pm
    punch (203)- Because it looks like a plate of diarrhea?

    doom: my father would turn over the cup of a finished Turkish Coffee to “read the grounds”….he always hated my smart-a$s ways, as I would purposely leave enough to make pool of sludge and announce that I predict my toilet will clog….

  232. Barbara says:

    I know all about philosophy because I watch LOST dutifully :P

  233. Barbara says:

    actually, those commercials, the bank that has that guy give one kid a toy, then the other kid the real thing….(and the other similar versions) is brilliant. Those kids aren’t acting.

  234. Shore Guy says:

    I’d like to help you doctor
    Yes I really, really would
    But the din in my head
    It’s too much and it’s no good
    I’m standing in a windy tunnel
    Shouting through the roar
    And I’d like to give the information
    You’re asking for
    But blood makes noise
    It’s a ringing in my ear
    Blood makes noise
    And I can’t really hear you
    In the thickening of fear
    I think that you might want to know
    The details and the facts
    But there’s something in my blood
    Denies the memory of the acts
    So just forget it doc and
    I think it’s really cool that you’re concerned
    But we’ll have to try again
    After the silence has returned
    ‘Cause blood makes noise
    It’s a ringing in my ear
    Blood makes noise
    And I can’t really hear you
    In the thickening of fear

  235. me@work says:

    now up to around 50% “self pay” aka uninsured/medicaid.

    time for a new career.


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