Sell Hamptons, buy LBI, and move your pied-a-terre to Hoboken

From the WSJ:

Out-of-State Owners Could Face Tax Bill

Connecticut and New Jersey residents with a Hamptons summer cottage or a Manhattan pied-a-terre are about to get a nasty surprise: New York state wants more taxes from them.

A New York court ruled last month that all income earned by a New Canaan, Conn., couple is subject to New York state taxes because they own a summer home on Long Island they used only a few times a year. They have been hit with an additional tax bill of $1.06 million.

Tax experts and real estate brokers say this ruling could boost the tax bill for thousands of business executives who own New York City apartments they use only occasionally. It could also hurt sales in the Hamptons and New York’s other vacation-home communities.

“People will think twice about spending any summer time in New York,” says Robert Willens, a New York-based tax consultant. “The amount of tax they could be subjected to is likely to outweigh the benefit.”

A spokesman for the state Taxation Department issued a written statement that said it was “pleased” with the decision. “However, these cases are fact-intensive and as such each case stands on its own specific fact pattern,” it said.

For years, New York law stated that residents of another state who spend more than 183 days a year in New York have to pay taxes on any income they make in this state. But they generally haven’t had to pay New York taxes on income they make outside of the state or on their spouses’ income if they work elsewhere.

Under the recent ruling, this might change for many out-of-state residents who own vacation homes or apartments here. In effect, it reinterprets what counts as a permanent residence.

In defining a “permanent place of abode,” New York tax code specifically excludes “a mere camp or cottage, which is suitable and used only for vacations.” New York tax experts say the new ruling is the first they recall that counts summer homes as permanent residences.

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139 Responses to Sell Hamptons, buy LBI, and move your pied-a-terre to Hoboken

  1. grim says:

    Was pretty busy yesterday, can’t believe nobody posted the jobless claims numbers.


    This is the lowest number we’ve seen in a long long time, and great news for the economy.

  2. grim says:

    From CNBC:

    Foreclosure Exposure Splits the Nation

    Anyone who expected to see a big jump in foreclosure numbers—especially since banks are supposedly ramping up the process after the “robosigning” faulty paperwork scandal—got a big surprise today.

    Total foreclosure activity increased a mere one percent in January month-to-month, according to RealtyTrac.

    More importantly, the final stage of foreclosure, bank repossessions (where most of the robo-issues allegedly lie) actually fell 11 percent in judicial foreclosure states and rose 23 percent in non-judicial states. Judicial foreclosure states require the loan paperwork to be filed in court for a judge’s ruling; non-judicial states simply require the foreclosure paperwork to be filed with the county records. There are 23 judicial foreclosure states. Clearly the servicers aren’t ramping up as we thought.

  3. grim says:

    From Bloomberg:

    33 more layoff notices from NJ casino commission

    The dismantling of the New Jersey Casino Control Commission continued this week with a second round of layoffs.

    The commission sent layoff notices on Tuesday to all 33 of its clerical employees. Last week, the commission notified 115 of its 144 casino inspectors they will be losing their jobs and said other inspectors probably would be shown the door as well.

    The layoffs are the result of a casino deregulation bill passed by the legislature and signed into law by Gov. Chris Christie. The move is designed to save the casinos millions of dollars in regulatory costs and make Atlantic City more business-friendly to the casino industry.

    Many of the functions of the casino commission are being eliminated or transferred to the Division of Gaming Enforcement, which is part of the state Attorney General’s Office. Part of the savings is to be used for a fund to better market Atlantic City nationwide.

    The Casino Control Commission had 260 employees before the layoff notices started going out last week.

    Even the size of the board of commissioners is dwindling. The five-member commission is down to three members after Wednesday’s resignation of Commissioner Michael Epps.

  4. grim says:

    From New Jersey Newsroom:

    Gamblers give Atlantic City casinos a cold shoulder in January

    Add the worst winter weather in 16 years to the problems faced by the operators of Atlantic City’s 11 casinos in their efforts to lure back gamblers.

    The operators reported $255.4 million in casino win in January —- a decrease of 13.2 percent over the same month a year ago.

  5. grim says:

    From the WSJ:

    Explaining the Realtors’ Rosy Housing Data

    With the National Association of Realtors reporting that home prices rose in about half of U.S. metropolitan areas in the last three months of 2010, it’s easy to think that that the housing market is showing some signs of recovery. “Home sales clearly recovered in the latter part of 2010,” Lawrence Yun, the NAR’s ever-optimistic economist says in a statement.

    But the proverbial grain of salt is in order, given many other sources report prices continue falling. The Journal recently reported that home values declined in all of the 28 major metropolitan areas tracked during the fourth quarter when compared to a year earlier, and repeat-sales indexes such as the S&P/Case Shiller index have shown that prices declined in October and November.

    The Realtors are looking at a different measure, median prices, which show that prices for home resales rose in about half of the nation’s 152 metro areas during the October-December quarter. Prices rose in 78 cities, fell in 71 and were unchanged in three. The group says the national median price for single-family homes was $170,600 in the fourth quarter of 2010, up 0.2% from $170,300 a year earlier.

    The Washington, DC, area gained 8.1%. There were decliners: Portland, Ore., came in down 3.8% and Seattle dipped 3.9%.

    Data from Zillow, however, show bigger declines in those three markets. Washington fell 5.8%, Portland declined 12.1% and Seattle tumbled 11.9%.

    Why the difference? When comparing the fourth quarter of 2010 to the prior-year period, the Realtors use median price, the point where half of sales fall above and half fall below. Last year’s data still include buyers tapping a tax credit of up to $8,000. Many of those sales were first-time buyers, who typically buy lower-priced houses. The expired credit isn’t in this year’s numbers, so median prices in some markets could be higher from a year ago because the more higher-priced sales were added to the “mix” of sales.

    Most industry watchers agree that the housing market must endure more pain before it can fully recover. Lending standards are tight, preventing would-be buyers from inking deals. The foreclosure crisis, meanwhile, continues with no end in sight. Many economists and housing analysts expect home prices to fall an additional 5% to 10% before prices hit the long-awaited bottom later this year or early next year.

  6. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  7. grim says:

    From HousingWire:

    Report: FHA should lower loan limits

    The Federal Housing Administration substantially raised its risk when it agreed to insure loans valued as high as $729,000 during the financial crisis, says a new report from the George Washington University Center for Real Estate and Urban Analysis.

    “Without question, FHA played a major role in keeping the housing market afloat during the economic collapse of 2008 and 2009, and we need to be careful about cutting back too rapidly,” said Van Order, Oliver T. Carr professor of real estate and chair of CREUA.

    “However, these large loan sizes are unlikely in the long run to assist FHA in reaching its historical constituencies,” he added. “Our research indicates that larger loans are likely to perform worse than FHA’s traditional market, and we are concerned that the rapid increase in FHA’s market share will be hard to manage.”

    Researchers who worked on the report say FHA loan limits hovered at $362,790 in 2006, about $400,000 less than today’s limit.

  8. grim says:

    From the WSJ:

    Rise in Rates Is Headwind for Housing

    .S. 30-year mortgage rates have jumped above 5% for the first time since last spring, in a rapid rise that could present a challenge to the still-troubled housing market.

    The average rate on 30-year fixed-rate mortgages climbed to 5.05% in the week ended Thursday, according to a widely watched survey by government-backed mortgage company Freddie Mac, up from 4.81% a week ago. It was the highest rate in the survey since April.

    Rising mortgage rates are an immediate consequence of the large jump in the U.S. government’s borrowing costs in recent weeks. Mortgage rates tend to move in line with the yield on the 10-year Treasury note, which closed Thursday at 3.712%, up from its October low of 2.381%.

    The sharp rise in mortgage rates has caught some investors and economists off guard, and will likely be watched closely by the Federal Reserve, which has been buying Treasury bonds in an effort to keep rates down and bolster economic activity.

    In some ways, the rate increase reflects positive news: Rates are rising in large part because there are signs the recovery is strengthening. As the economy gains steam, investors demand higher rates to compensate for an expected uptick in inflation. And if the economy can generate stronger job and wage growth, higher rates may not be a problem for housing.

    But many worry that the housing market is lagging behind other parts of the economy. One risk is that higher rates could deter buying, putting further pressure on prices and squelching hope of a housing recovery for now. Many analysts expect nationwide home prices to decline 5% to 10% in the months ahead.

    Still, rates remain near historically low levels, and the market has withstood much higher rates in the past. By at least one measure, housing affordability has returned to its levels before the housing boom collapsed.

    Keith Hembre, chief economist at Nuveen Asset Management in Minneapolis, says rates still need to rise 0.25 to 0.5 percentage point before they become a hindrance. “But it’s certainly not helpful,” he said.

  9. 30 year realtor says:

    “More importantly, the final stage of foreclosure, bank repossessions (where most of the robo-issues allegedly lie) actually fell 11 percent in judicial foreclosure states and rose 23 percent in non-judicial states.”

    Jersey and NY holding almost zero foreclosure sales may have something to do with the statistics. As soon as foreclosure sales return to normal there will be an inflated number of bank repossessions while they plow through the backlog.

  10. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Grim 1

    Your joking right?

    “Currently the problem in the US jobs market mainly lies with, what I call, the maintenance rate. This is the minimum monthly job creation rate that our enormous system–our economy and government with its revenues and liabilities–must have in order to maintain itself as population grows. Getting lost in the weeds, therefore, of monthly unemployment rates is a waste of time. After having lost 8+ million jobs from the top of the last expansion, nitpicking one’s way through the additions, revisions, and changes to the presumed size of the work force misses the point. And that’s this: any month in which the US does not create at least 125,000 jobs, from a systemic point of view, is negative. It’s less than zero.

    This is the mistake both Gavyn Davies of the FT and G.I. of the Economist’s Free Exchange made last week. Their conclusion–that a recovery in the US labor force is now underway–is not warranted, and not supported by the data. Why? Because not only did the US economy lose at least 8 million jobs in the crisis, but, in the three calendar years of 2008, 2009, and 2010 barely a million net jobs have been created. During that time the US economy instead needed 4.5 million new jobs just to maintain equilibrium. Last month’s payroll data is simply more noise, therefore, that takes place around a horrid, terrible bottom in the US job market. | see: United States Total Non-Farm Payrolls in Millions (seasonally adjusted) 2001-2011.”

  11. grim says:

    Jersey and NY holding almost zero foreclosure sales may have something to do with the statistics. As soon as foreclosure sales return to normal there will be an inflated number of bank repossessions while they plow through the backlog.

    And the state will continue to postpone the foreclosure hearings in an attempt to keep that rate exactly where it is. Lenders are afraid to move forward, until the outcome is known.

  12. wheaties says:

    Hi NY! So if I just rent a vacation home does that mean I have to pay taxes too? What about a time-share? How would you like to shoot yourself in the foot this time? Good thing you’re thinking short-term and not long-term. We wouldn’t want you to drive out any more people from the tri-state area now would we.

  13. House Whine says:

    10- Thanks for posting that link. The job market seems spotty, at best. Recently, I am hearing of some success stories for job-seekers. But then, someone else I know loses their job! And then you have the workers who are unhappy where they are but are afraid to leave to “greener pastures” because who wants to be the new kid in town with no seniority if the axe falls at the new place. I switched back to the medical field so at least I have a bit of job security (for now).

  14. 30 year realtor says:

    #12 Grim – Do you truly believe the State has an interest in manipulating the number of foreclosure sales? My view is that it is all about the integrity of the legal system. The system is at a halt due to the flagrant abuses by banks in their foreclosure procedures.

    When ever I read or hear of statistics on the economy I wonder, what has been done to pollute the integrity of the numbers?

  15. grim says:

    14 – Of course, they are pushing for a settlement. How does a settlement answer questions about the integrity of the system?

  16. Everything now is a negotiated settlement between two parties who are equally corrupt.

    We have a local and national economy that are based on complete fraud.

    The locomotive is picking up speed, roaring toward the cliff’s edge at 140 MPH.

    It all works. Until it doesn’t.

    Oblivion, dead ahead.

  17. I don’t have nearly as many guns, ammo, food stores or water as I want.

  18. New Phony/Fraudy wind-down proposals include mandatory 10% DPs.

    Of course, FHA would remain…very likely with a gubmint backstop/reinsurance program.

    With a lower Phony/Fraudy ceiling as well, I think we can say buh-bye to the mid-level market here in NJ.

    Methinks owner financing in this segment is about to become very popular.

  19. JJ says:

    anyone buy Kinder Morgan? I backed out last night when they raised share price till $30, but I now feel it is going to pop.

    There is a lot more to the Hampton Story. Years ago I remember seeing quite a few traders paychecks with WestHampton and SouthHampton as home address and found out they had NYC rent Control apts and using summer home to avoid NYC taxes and high car insurance.

    I also found a lot of wealthy retirees who bought had a place in Florida and then when they retired bought a Hamptons house. Those folks only went to that Florida house December through March each year yet claimed that was their primary residence. Mr. Jeter do you hear me. This is not a wide scale thing. But if you have a ton of investment income rolling in it makes a big deal.

  20. Is FHA now being primed as the new national mortgage garbage can/bankruptcy/bailout vehicle…since Phony/Fraudy have been blown to smithereens?

    This whole thing is a giant, corrupt game of whack-a-mole.

  21. Geithner on CNBC now, lying his ass off.

  22. yo'me says:

    Per a new State law aimed at capping tax increases in New Jersey’s municipalities at 2%, a municipality may also request to exceed the 2% cap in the interest of the health, safety and welfare of the municipality. The Egg Harbor Township government website has published a list of ordinances that will be presented at the February 9th meeting with the budget cap bank ordinance among them. To review the Ordinances scheduled to be considered on Wednesday evening

    Continue reading on Egg Harbor Township may pass a budget cap bank and tax abatement – Atlantic City Elections 2010 |

  23. New Charles Hugh Smith:

    “Let’s focus instead on the fact that the Federal government must borrow and spend 11% of GDP ($1.5+ trillion) every year, and the Fed must buy $1 trillion in impaired private assets or new Treasury debt annually (another 7% of GDP) just to create an illusory GDP growth of 2.5% a year. So we’re spending/injecting 18% of the GDP to conjure a “growth” of 2.5%.

    That means we’re spending/injecting $7 to create $1 of “growth” in GDP. And thanks to the ratchet effect, there’s no going back now without systemic disruption. Does anyone seriously believe spending $7 to birth $1 of “growth” is sustainable? If so, then let’s eliminate that $1.5 trillion deficit spending and the Fed’s $1 trillion-a-year purchases of impaired debt and Treasury bonds, and see if GDP “grows” via organic demand and production.”

  24. More Smith:

    “The “recovery” is precisely analogous to an alcoholic who claims to be sobering up but who is actually drinking seven beers a day to get a buzz when a few years ago he only quaffed two or three a day.”

  25. Stop, you’re killing me:

    “If I loan you $1 trillion at zero interest, with no principal payments, then the cost of servicing that $1 trillion loan is zero. Pretty easy to service zero, isn’t it? That’s the core strategy of the Federal Reserve and the U.S. Treasury.

    That’s been Japan’s “secret” for 20 years: as long as the lenders (the Japanese citizenry and life insurance companies, etc.) accepted near-zero interest, then the cost of borrowing additional trillions has been bearable.

    But as soon as that $1 trillion requires a serious interest payment, then the ratchet-effect game ends. We are not there yet, but the endgame is no longer over the horizon.”

  26. grim says:


    I suppose this isn’t a great time to be under contract on another property.

    Oh well, I can either be watching the disaster, or part of it, since either way I’m going to get screwed.

  27. grim says:

    Geithner is not going to be making many friends this morning.

    I’m sure the NAR and MBAA are in a tizzy.

  28. 30 year realtor says:

    #15 Grim – The quasi moratorium is not about answering all of the legal questions and making everything right. Banks abused the system to the point where the AG and the judicial system had to take action. Sadly the banks will receive only a symbolic slap on the wrist and maybe there will be some measures taken to insure a greater level of integrity to the foreclosure process going forward.

    Integrity is a wonderful concept. I believe the people responsible for MERS and the foreclosure abuses should be made to pay dearly for their criminal enterprise. On the other hand the blockage in the New Jersey sheriff sales is interfering in my ability to earn. I’ll take the settlement! So much for my integrity! Guilty as charged…

  29. Comrade Nom Deplume says:


    I agree that this will impact sales, but not so much in the Hamptons, where JJ will just toss more of his abundant funny money at the tax authorities as well as pizza delivery men in 3 Series’.

    Two trends may emerge: First, people will put their houses into realty trusts in order to firewall themselves from the ownership issue. Second, they will lie, or at least do things that make it harder for the tax authorities to prove presence

    The real impact will be felt in other businesses. I recently told a board regular that NY will tax you simply for flying over their airspace, and decisions like this have collateral effect on other businesses that are not based in NY but have people that go there periodically. I can also envision some corporations implementing policies that warn their people not to do business while vacationing in, or transiting through, NY lest NY discover their presence and try to make an argument that the contacts were pervasive enough to confer jurisdiction.

    Christie should be all over things like this, not the Illinois tax hike and pension issues.

  30. Shore Guy says:

    Thanks for the WSJ piece. Mrs. Shore and I have been going to the Finger Lakes area lokong at lakefront houses. This article HS put an end to any thoughts we have to buying anything in NY.

    I do not care for Florida all that much but may end up with something there by default.

  31. Shore Guy says:

    HS is really “has, ” thank you friggen Android

  32. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [31] shore

    I feel your pain. I was speaking to a board regular about android v. iphone, and he was of the opinion that iphone simply wasted Android. Oh well.

  33. Shore Guy says:


    Under current NY law, every partner of a firm (regardless of where they live) that has even a single partner working in NYC has to pay a special transit tax.

  34. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [30] shore

    The nompound concept of fractional ownership also translates well to florida beach property, if the demographic permits (folks with income that could be sourced to Florida). Everyone could designate the FL residence as their primary residence.

    Only problems with that are (a) zoning, if the residence has more owners on paper than occupancy permits, and (b) the fact that all concerned would be lying their asses off.

    Nice in theory though.

  35. dan says:

    Anyone have anything to say about Wayne? I know it’s a big town but something there caught my eye.

  36. dan says:


    You were mentioning a house in a town with a good school district a couple of weeks ago. I have a friend of mine, married two kids looking in Randolph/Mendham area. Are we matching there?

  37. JJ says:

    The kennedy house in the Hamptons is in a trust. That is way to go. Plus you could just buy the damm house in grandkids names, they are getting it anyhow one day. Or rent.

    I recall a long long time ago, I was driving my old Mercedes in South Hampton on a Friday night on the way out to my summer rental and got pulled over. I switched Registration to my Southampton beach house so I could get the beach sticker, insurance card had my Moms house, Licenese had my sublet Coop address and cop asked me where I was coming from and I said my apt in Manhattan.

    Cop goes so you live in Manhattan, own a Coop in Queens, own a House in Nassau County and own a Home in Southampton. I say yes Officer is it a crime to own four homes? Cop goes no it is not, try to use your indicator next time and have a good night.

    Goes to show cops must see that a lot in Southampton people juggling multiple addreses.

  38. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [37] JJ

    A cop would not arrest you for tax evasion. First, there is the jurisdictional issues, then there is the irony of it all.

    Remember the scene in Shawshank Redemption where Tim Robbins’ character was advising a line of prison guards on how to cheat on taxes? That actually happens.

  39. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Sales person from Liccardi Ford called me today. Needless to say, after getting jerked around initially, my notice (not threat, but telling them what was going to happen) concerning my deposit got their attention. Hard.

    They had taken care of it days ago, but the salesperson called me, not to plead for Liccardi, but because I had dismissed this person as part of the circle jerk problem.

    From what I was able to discern, jerking people around is something that Liccardi is known for, and this salesperson was chagrined to have learned of it after being there awhile.

    Lie down with pigs and . . . .

  40. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [37] JJ

    “Plus you could just buy the damm house in grandkids names, they are getting it anyhow one day.”

    I can tell you are a pretty smart guy (no doubt you agree), but there are some things you toss out that makes lawyers cringe. No way I would ever advise that.

  41. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    This could be interesting. I think it is a loser of a case, but it makes for good politics.

    I had once considered whether it was possible to sue Mass. under similar grounds for its draconian gun control laws. Argument was that the state assumed a parens patriae role and a duty to insure your safety if they were going to prevent you from doing it yourself. Sovereign immunity negates that, so there is no case to be made, but it makes for a compelling debate.

  42. JJ says:

    I was not evading taxes as they were all New York locations, actually I don’t think I had any income at the time. I worked at a job that paid peanuts from 1989 to 1997 as I figured while single time was more important than money. Hard to go away every weekend, sking , hamptons, vacations etc. And happy hours and clubing nearly every night with a real job. I also figured I could spend around 101% of income each year.

    Marriage is really really good for career, when all that waits you at home is a screaming bunch of kids. Working late looks good. When single three sweedish blondes in town visiting who want to meet at happy hour at five pm makes me AUDI 5000.

    Comrade Nom Deplume says:
    February 11, 2011 at 10:01 am

    [37] JJ

    A cop would not arrest you for tax evasion. First, there is the jurisdictional issues, then there is the irony of it all.

    Remember the scene in Shawshank Redemption where Tim Robbins’ character was advising a line of prison guards on how to cheat on taxes? That actually happens.

  43. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [41] redux,

    BTW, the political aspect of Brewer’s suit will be that the feds will be forced to state in their pleadings (and in their motion to dismiss) that the state’s case is meritless because the feds have no duty to protect Arizona or it citizens.

    Not making this up. I expect to see this in the pleadings, and once it is there, expect Fox News and Rush to be bellowing about it.

    BTW, in the fed answers to the states that sued to block PPACA, the feds asserted that the individual mandate was lawful under the fed’s taxing power. Expect to have that language juxtaposed against the line “not one thin dime” that Obama proclaimed regarding taxes on the middle class.

    I have said that his “not one thin dime” statement would become his “read my lips” moment. Stay tuned.

  44. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [42] JJ

    What about NYC taxes? I don’t actually think you are evading since you are based in the city and pay city taxes. I wasn’t implying that, only that it would be wrong and silly for a cop to pinch you for that.

    I call you a lot of things; tax cheat isn’t one of them.

  45. grim says:

    Dan – I’m buying in Wayne, let me know if I can help. I’ve been in just about every house for sale in town.

  46. stan says:

    Privately, Public Employees See Cuts as Inevitable
    Sitting down to eat, Andrea Douglas, a claims representative for the State of New Jersey for the past 10 years, quietly conceded what few union leaders say aloud: Government workers have to give up some of their benefits.

  47. still_looking says:

    grim, 45

    Gonna have a GTG after you close? :)


  48. Essex says:

    48. Best thing you’ve ever posted.

  49. grim says:

    47 – Yep, except everyone will need to bring tools.

  50. dan says:


    Looked at two townhouses, one on Easedale and another on Ponds back in November by myself but wife is more interested in houses. Seeing some with OK prices online but don’t know much about different areas of town meaning is one area better to live than another or are there parts of town to avoid completely. The town really takes up a lot of area.

  51. 30 year realtor says:

    50 – a demolition party could be fun. BYO wrecking bar!

  52. JJ says:

    I do my own taxes and wife checks them. Eight years in public accounting I kept my returns squeeky clean as wanted to keep Partner hopes alive.

    But the taxes I do pay make me sick. I exercised some stock grants last week and it cost me 43K in taxes for just hitting the button. Only plus side is I bought a lot of muni bonds in fire sale in last few weeks and that should help. I love a 6%+ coupon under 104 on a 20 year AMT bond. Would buy them all day long. Need to do 10% on a junk bond to get the same as an A rated insured muni.

    Comrade Nom Deplume says:
    February 11, 2011 at 10:21 am

    [42] JJ

    What about NYC taxes? I don’t actually think you are evading since you are based in the city and pay city taxes. I wasn’t implying that, only that it would be wrong and silly for a cop to pinch you for that.

    I call you a lot of things; tax cheat isn’t one of them.

  53. chicagofinance says:

    FEBRUARY 11, 2011

    Why College Hockey Arenas Are the Cathedrals of Sports
    From Yale’s ‘Whale’ to North Dakota’s Palace, Quirkiness Reigns


    Most sports arenas being built these days are big on luxury boxes, videoboards and “retro” architecture. The conventions of the medium have become so entrenched that if you’re not looking at the team names on the scoreboard, it may be difficult to know what city you’re in.

    Unless, of course, you walk into a college hockey arena.

    For a number of reasons, this niche sport, which is concentrated in the Northeast and Midwest, has become a showplace for unusual stadium architecture—and on many campuses, the best fan experience going.

    As the sport grows in size and stature, schools like Michigan, Northeastern and Yale have maintained the character of their grand old buildings while another crop of schools like Notre Dame, Boston University and Minnesota-Duluth have built, or are planning to build, distinctive new venues.

    So here’s a question: What are these arenas like? And what are their coolest attributes? With award season upon us, The Wall Street Journal has joined the party with a new prize: the Golden Zamboni. Based on visits to 10 unique hockey campuses, here are the winners and (losers) in 10 categories.

    BEST HISTORY: Northeastern
    Northeastern might never overtake its local rivals, Boston College and Boston University, in winning games: It’s been 23 years since the Huskies last won the Beanpot, Boston’s annual college-hockey tournament. But when it comes to Northeastern’s Matthews Arena, no other building comes close. Opened in 1910, Matthews (known as Boston Arena until 1982) claims to be the world’s oldest existing ice hockey arena—and is the original home of both the Boston Bruins and Celtics. It’s even two years older than Fenway Park, the beloved home of the Red Sox.

    Don’t be fooled when you see it: the brick building’s age is concealed by a recent renovation that brought a new scoreboard, upgraded seats and a refurbished lobby.

    BEST ICE: New Hampshire
    A major difference between college and NHL arenas is that the ice-surface dimensions of college rinks can vary. NHL rules specify that rinks must measure 200 feet by 85 feet wide.

    The bigger the surface, the more wide-open the game. New Hampshire’s Whittemore Center uses the dimensions for international play (200-by-100). One further distinction about the Whittemore ice: Students toss a dead fish onto it after UNH’s first goal. “Because the goalie has to fish the puck out of the net,” explains a spokesman.

    LEAST LIVELY: Princeton
    In fairness, we caught Princeton on a tough night—a Tuesday game against overmatched Sacred Heart while the student body was on break.

    Still, Princeton’s ancient Hobey Baker Rink (opened in 1923) is well known for both looking and sounding like a library. The building itself is a jewel: a tiny, roughly 2,000-seat rink with exposed brick throughout that’s named for the legendary early-1900s Princeton football and hockey star. It’s also in a good spot across from the recently built Whitman residential college and next to a train station. But the fans lack passion. In the Sacred Heart game, the visiting goalie got yanked midway through the first period yet heard nothing from the crowd.

    Not everyone appreciates the “Yale Whale,” Yale’s distinctive Ingalls Rink. According to an old newspaper clipping on display at the arena, Harry S. Truman called it a “nightmare” during a visit to campus.

    In a sports world filled with cookie-cutter arena designs, though, the Whale is a welcome break. Designed by famed architect Eero Saarinen, the arena has a soaring, humpback-shaped roof, and every seat in the 3,500-capacity rink has an unobstructed view.
    The best place to watch the game, though, is the standing-room ramp that encircles the rink—which fills up before the seats. Stuart Comen, a chef at Yale who has been attending games for over 20 years, has two season-ticket seats, but he doesn’t use them. “After standing nine hours in the kitchen, I stand three hours here,” he said.

    Wisconsin’s Kohl Center, which doubles as a basketball arena, may feel a bit soulless. Built in 1998, it lacks the historical character and hockey-shrine feel of some of the sport’s other venues. But Badgers fans, the most committed of whom are known as “Crease Creatures,” are perhaps the scariest bunch of fans for visiting teams—especially since more than 15,000 of them can fit in the building. (Wisconsin boasts the best attendance in college hockey.)

    North Dakota fan Rick LaFleur admitted recently that when it comes to the intimidation factor, North Dakota’s home ice is “vanilla” in comparison to the supercharged atmosphere at Badgers’ games, which he described as “double chocolate mocha.”

    BEST CROWD: Michigan
    Michigan’s intimate 6,600-seat Yost Ice Arena isn’t flashy—it’s chilly with narrow corridors, wood paneling that’s reminiscent of a ski lodge and a skate rental window that makes it feel like a community rink. Students fill nearly half the arena for every game and their enthusiasm, coordination and ruthlessness makes it our pick for the best hockey student section in the country. Never mind that they stole most of their cheers from Cornell, says a team spokesman: the myriad expletives that Wolverine fans have added over the years “are vintage Michigan.”

    MOST OPULENT: North Dakota
    At Ralph Engelstad Arena, the air is sweet with the smell of roasting Bavarian almonds. The floors are marble, chandeliers dangle from the ceilings, mirrors are framed in gold and fireworks go off whenever the Sioux score. Every seat—even in the student section—is extra wide with armrests and cushioning. It’s the luxurious experience you’d expect from the late Mr. Engelstad, a former UND player who owned casinos and clearly had a taste for the finer things. Suiteholders have tricked out their boxes with leather couches, pinball machines and vintage jukeboxes. The coaches’ locker room has a sauna. Since the arena opened in 2001 there have been a dozen wedding receptions a year held in the lobby.

    BEST LOCAL FLAVOR: Minnesota-Duluth
    Duluth’s new Amsoil Arena, which opened this winter, doesn’t have the same harbor views of Lake Superior, but it oozes local flavor. Bar tops in the fireplace-warmed “Bulldog Lounge” are made from local taconite rock, flecked with red iron ore; walls are inlaid with Minnesota stone and the decorative panels are made of wood salvaged from old grain elevators. On the walls are quotations from Duluth’s two biggest local celebrities: frozen-pizza impresario Jeno Paulucci and Bob Dylan.

    MOST SOBER: Minnesota
    The cavernous Mariucci Arena, built in 1993, has become the stuff of legend. It features international-sized ice and 10,000 seats that slope steeply upward for optimum views. But ever since the University’s decision to ban alcohol sales in premium sections, suites have been a tough sell, says arena manager Craig Flor. Minnesota President Bob Bruininks said this fall he might start talks to get liquor back for the VIPs.

    Games at Maine’s Alfond Arena feel like the hockey version of Friday Night Lights. The crowd is a mix of diehard locals and feverish students (one of whom hangs a referee doll in effigy when the officials skate onto the ice. At one end of the 5,445-seat arena, a section of fans sits in an ear-splitting site directly below the band. “There’s nothing like Maine hockey,” said Melissa Cross, who’s been attending games since she was 8. “What else are you going to do when it’s 20 below?”

    Corrections & Amplifications: It’s been 23 years since the Huskies last won the Beanpot, Boston’s annual college-hockey tournament. An earlier version of this article misstated the name as the Terriers.

  54. Anon E. Moose says:

    Revisiting the breif Egypt discussion: at about 1800 local time Egypt’s (new) vice-president announced that Mubarak has resigned. Helicopters were reported leaving his Cairo palace earlier in the day and heading for his camp in Sharm El Sheik (resort town on the southern tip of the Siani Penninsula). Military will control in the interim while a new government is stood up. Mubarak’s VP will not ascend.

  55. chicagofinance says:

    for shore:
    You Don’t Need Millions to Own a Tropical Home

  56. JJ says:

    I guess Mubarak is no longer in denile

  57. Anon E. Moose says:

    Nom [38];

    I really loved how the warden used Robbins’ character to cook the books on his kickback money, so Robbins knew exactly where to go and who he had to impersonate in order to withdraw it after he escaped. He even wore the f-ing warden’s suit that Robbins was supposed to be cleaning/pressing for him. Only thing better would have been for Robbins to f- the warden’s widow, too (but now I’m starting to sound like JJ).

  58. Painhrtz says:

    58 moose he pretty much did, by emptying the warden’s coffers, and getting him to kill himself

  59. Schrodinger's Cat says:

    Moose 55

    There are reports that Mubarak is already dead (military hit?)and they are simply playing games right now. Nothing but rumor at this point, but time will tell. It wouldnt be so different from what happened in Romania in 89

  60. dan says:


    And then the trip to Sharm El Sheik? Sounds like Weekend at Hosni’s!!!!!! A couple of civil servants walking him around town moving his hands for him and having him do water skiing so he can tackle buoys.

  61. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    Regarding yesterday, one difference you would see in the type and scale of demonstrations seen in Egypt, is that here in the US, at that scale, the people (demonstrators) could easily out gun civilian law enforcement in both quantity of weapons and power of said weapons.
    Civilians in the US even have the ability to defeat basic armored vehicles, as armor piercing rounds are readily available for purchase by anyone who wants them.

    The dynamic would be very different here in that situation.

  62. Anon E. Moose says:

    Cat [62];

    I think the type of people who have access to armor piercing ammunition (basically drug and illegal immigrant runners) would not be protesting for the good of their fellow man, or generally peacefully cheering about the coup d’etat in the public square.

  63. Anon E. Moose says:

    Con’t [63];

    On the other hand, the situation in Egypt has played out as it had precisely because the military has been on scene (tanks and all) but had not moved against the protesters. A) it could easily have gotten much uglier if it had been the military moving in rather than the Mubarak’s plain-clothsed thugs; and B) If in an anlogous situation, the US military APCs in the streets started taking armor-piercing fire, I think self-defense instinct would overrun good will towards countrymen.

  64. Painhrtz says:

    Moose you can get .50 cal bmg ammo which is armor piercing off the shelf. Granted it is expensive but can defeat any light armor. For bullet proof vests, an AR-15 Beowulf has no problems defeating it and there are plenty of them out there. your not talking .223 at long distances any clashes with police will be up close and personal. not good for body armor because while it may prevent passage of the round, the kinetic energy is still absorbed by the body. Plus you have the numbers issues, cops are severely outnumbered, I think that is why they have been arming themselves like small paramilitary units.

    Cat Weekend at Hosni’s hot burka chicks, blow and the koran sounds like fun

  65. grim (50)-

    I can bring Moose. Does he qualify?

    “Yep, except everyone will need to bring tools.”

  66. JJ says:

    Greenspan Says Housing May Need 10% Price Rise for Solid Rebound
    By Alex Kowalski – Feb 11, 2011 12:15 PM ET

    Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said a recovery in the U.S. housing market may not be solid until home prices rise by at least 10 percent.

    “Stabilization is important not only to the housing market, but to the economic recovery as a whole,” Greenspan said today in the text of a speech at the Brookings Institution in Washington. “Home prices will have to rise unequivocally and perhaps by 10 percent or more before signs of a full-fledged housing recovery become unambiguous.”

    Home values in the U.S. fell during the fourth quarter as mounting foreclosures sideline buyers who think prices could decline further. The median price of a single-family home dropped from a year earlier in 71 of 152 metropolitan areas tracked by the National Association of Realtors, the group said yesterday.

    The number of homes in foreclosure in December rose to a record 2.2 million, according to Lender Processing Services Inc., based in Jacksonville, Florida. Including foreclosures and late payments, there were 6.87 million non-current mortgages, the company said.

    Owners won’t be able to borrow more against the equity in their homes, which provides more for spending, until the value of their houses increases, Greenspan said. Household spending makes up about 70 percent of the economy.

    After demand for houses peaked in 2006, home prices in the U.S. tumbled for three years in a “largely futile endeavor to uncover enough demand to absorb the inventory excess,” Greenspan said.

    To lift prices, demand must be driven by either an increase in the rate of household formation or an increase in the share going toward owner-occupancy, according to Greenspan.

    “Tax credits rarely do either,” Greenspan said.

  67. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    I think the type of people who have access to armor piercing ammunition (basically drug and illegal immigrant runners)

    Not really. armor piercing 50 bmg is not something that crowd is likely to bother with for a variety of reasons. It isnt that hard to come by in perfectly legal manners.

    B) If in an anlogous situation, the US military APCs in the streets started taking armor-piercing fire, I think self-defense instinct would overrun good will towards countrymen.
    depending on he politics of the moment, you could easily end up with a romanian type situation with one segment of the military with the people and one fighting them.

  68. safe as houses says:

    Grim Congrats,

    I’m guessing you aren’t under contract in a flood plain.

  69. Painhrtz says:

    Cat B which would be an utter fuster cluck leading to civil war 2.0 and eventual disolution of the USA

  70. NJGator says:

    Comrade Nom 44 – If you don’t live in NYC, you don’t pay NYC taxes. Rudy Guiliani said NYC didn’t need the commuter tax, remember? My out-of-state money funds Schnectady, not Staten Island.

  71. Libtard In the City says:

    “This whole thing is a giant, corrupt game of whack-a-mole.”

    Simply brilliant!

  72. Libtard In the City says:

    Grim…Wayne is a smart choice and congrats. I’ll wave when I head up to the ice vault or to Trader Joe’s. Or when hiking by Fairly Ridiculous.

  73. JJ says:

    Not 100% true. The NYC tax that was killed created a shortfall covered by the MTA tax that now applies to even people on Long Island who work on Long Island.

    NJGator says:
    February 11, 2011 at 1:20 pm

    Comrade Nom 44 – If you don’t live in NYC, you don’t pay NYC taxes. Rudy Guiliani said NYC didn’t need the commuter tax, remember? My out-of-state money funds Schnectady, not Staten Island.

  74. NJGator says:

    JJ 74 – Is that for NYS residents only. I am sure that Stu would be b*tching to me if we had to pay it as out of staters.

  75. Anon E. Moose says:

    Debt [66];

    Considering how little work you’re capable of doing, bringing me along would seem like a good idea.

  76. yo;me says:

    We are the bad guy, not Mubarak
    Cut to today when the perfect storm of U.S. farm policy, U.S. foreign policy, and the U.S. Federal Reserve Board’s quantitative easing has fueled global commodity and food prices.

    Is it any wonder that a disenfranchised population subject to increasing economic oppression would revolt?

    Unfortunately for him, President Hosni Mubarak is being cast as both the messenger and master of the plan of attack against the masses. But lurking in the shadows of Tahrir Square is U.S. policy.

  77. Painhrtz says:

    Grim congrats hope your on the hill and not in the valley

  78. Anon E. Moose says:

    [Title Story]

    The decision says that the poor schnook bought the damn place because his in-laws wanted it – a friend of theirs was selling it. They lived there year-round, and the FIL ran a charter boat out the Hamptons. They had to call before they went out there to make sure there would be room for them and no other relatives were coming.

    Buy a summer house for your in-laws that you get to use 5-10 summer weekends a year: $260,000. Tax bill on same because that place makes you a NY resident: $1.06 MM

    I’m thinking there were some interesting holiday dinners with the in-laws after that tax bill hit. That’s gonna leave a mark.

  79. Barbara says:

    This house is very “Ice Stormy.” I likey. Needs a bathroom redo.–Princeton-NJ-08540

  80. JJ says:

    NYS only. Sure Christie will also figure a way to have his own transit tax on people who drive to work. I like the tax. I take the train.

    NJGator says:
    February 11, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    JJ 74 – Is that for NYS residents only. I am sure that Stu would be b*tching to me if we had to pay it as out of staters.

  81. Libtard In the City says:


    That kitchen needs a redo too. I always found it odd when wealthy folks buy uber-priced homes, decorate them as contemporary as possible and then never update a thing until they die. Is it simply that they eventually realize the folly in spending so much money to impress their so-called friends? Or do they just get realize that on a fixed income, it’s really impossible? Though, I would say that the bathroom was redone recently.

    I too love that style of home. Very arch digest. Unfortunately, so much of that style was form over function. They look great, but they’re impossible to heat and the custom windows leak everywhere.

  82. JJ says:

    Chifi this one’s for you. Bought it at 55 cents.

    2/11/2011 YOU SOLD
    37042GRJ7 GENERAL MTRS ACCEP CPSMARTNBE 6.75000% 09/15/2016 C Price: $97.0817

  83. Juice Box says:

    JJ – you do know with the state talking over Nassau county they are going to
    raise taxes there allot to close the budget gap.Is selling your POS ASAP and moving across the Suffolk border part of your trade up and tax mitigation strategy?

  84. Barbara says:

    yeah the bath looks like it got a shiteous 90s redo. The kitchen is uninspired. I would test the window room’s airtight integrity but its not always bad news, the glass isn’t clouded in this one at least.

  85. Barbara says:

    and….its also 300k out of my price range, but these are rare modernist gems in NJ.

  86. JJ says:

    Actually they are not raising taxes that is why the public servants are mad. They want to cut budgets like crazy. Fine with me. They just put through a five year freeze on RE tax assessments.

    Juice Box says:
    February 11, 2011 at 3:23 pm

    JJ – you do know with the state talking over Nassau county they are going to
    raise taxes there allot to close the budget gap.Is selling your POS ASAP and moving across the Suffolk border part of your trade up and tax mitigation strategy?

  87. Juice Box says:

    re #87 – Though I saw something Channel 2 the other day about a new sewer tax for Nassau County. Just saying JJ they will raise taxes one way or another, they aren’t going to get rid of a 340 million dollar budget gap with layoffs.

  88. Libtard In the City says:

    Demo starts on Monday Barb. Getting excited about the new place. Best of all, the bidet remains for now.

    Now I just have to find some bank willing to go 90% on the HELOC, piggy bank replacement. AIG would only go 70% (I guess they finally saw the light). PNC 80%. I think TD will do it though. They claimed they would on the phone. We’ll see tomorrow morning in person. I just hope they don’t get robbed while I’m there. That place gets hit about once per year and they are overdue.

  89. Simply Ravishing HEHEHE says:

    Here it begins:

    “SEC Charges Former Mortgage Lending Executives With Securities Fraud
    Washington, D.C., Feb. 11, 2011 — The Securities and Exchange Commission today charged three former senior executives at IndyMac Bancorp with securities fraud for misleading investors about the mortgage lender’s deteriorating financial condition.

    The SEC alleges that former CEO Michael W. Perry and former CFOs A. Scott Keys and S. Blair Abernathy participated in the filing of false and misleading disclosures about the financial stability of IndyMac and its main subsidiary, IndyMac Bank F.S.B. The three executives regularly received internal reports about IndyMac’s deteriorating capital and liquidity positions in 2007 and 2008, but failed to ensure adequate disclosure of that information to investors as IndyMac sold millions of dollars in new stock.”

  90. NJGator says:

    The House that Tweets

    “Outside my window today: Doggies! Walk to the plaza with Fido for great window shopping and takeaway coffee. Fresh air and fun.” So read a recent tweet from “106 Montclair Avenue,” aka Montclair resident and home seller Amrita Sawhney.

    Sawhney is selling her house without a real estate broker – which is nothing new. What is innovative is the strategy she has devised to market the house. It combines skillful use of social media with an old-fashioned knack for leveraging social networks.

    With the toughest market in decades, do-it-yourself sellers have had to get creative. It is no longer enough to host a few open houses and put up a For Sale sign in the front yard.

    When Sawhney decided to sell her home, she knew she wanted to go a different route. “I love challenging myself,” she said. “I’m also a pretty savvy marketer and have a good understanding of how to use technology.” She designed the house’s website, and opened up its Facebook account and Twitter feed.
    The website was a DIY job with the help of Go Daddy’s WebSite Tonight® program. As for the tweets, Sawhney said she wanted to give potential buyers a sense of “what it is like to live on this street.”

    She has also used some more traditional avenues, including placing ads in The New York Times, as well as on Zillow and Craigslist. Sawhney admits that marketing your own home in this way is not for the faint of heart (or short of time). “You have to know your own skill sets, and it is a time commitment,” she said.

    This weekend’s open house (2/12 and 2/13 from 10 a.m.-4 p.m.) will be the first real test of how many potential buyers her grassroots campaign has reached so far. Sawhney is making sure the house is ready for its close-up – she’s even having local artist Donna Grande stop by on Sunday to show some of her paintings.

    What do you think of Sawhney’s strategy? Will it give her the edge in a bleak and sluggish housing market?

  91. NJGator says:

    Oops…link for the article above should be

  92. Juice Box says:

    re: #90 – no perp walks or criminal referrals?

  93. Anon E. Moose says:

    Lib [89];

    Best of all, the bidet remains for now.

    All I can think of while reading that is some Hollywood producer yelling “The kid stays in the picture!”

  94. Simply Ravishing HEHEHE says:


    Who knows. The fact Tangelo Mozillo is walking around a free man tells me it’s not likely.

  95. JJ says:

    My taxes are so little even if they raised them 50% it is no big deal. It is a big deal for people who have 24K taxes who are just hanging on in their dream mcmansion.
    Juice Box says:
    February 11, 2011 at 3:43 pm

    re #87 – Though I saw something Channel 2 the other day about a new sewer tax for Nassau County. Just saying JJ they will raise taxes one way or another, they aren’t going to get rid of a 340 million dollar budget gap with layoffs.

  96. Barbara says:

    89. Libtard if you keep that bidet, you best put a potted plant inside. I saw this on not one, but TWO “prestigious” Montclair showings. At least they were real plants.

    Gotta get nosy now on that HELOC…feel free not to answer. Did you do mostly cash in the purchase, or are you looking to retain as much cash as possible and doing the renos with the HELOC? I’m thinking this same scenario through for my sitch.

  97. Barbara says:

    Also, I’m totes jelz on the remodeling. I love shopping for finishes.

  98. Essex says:

    The magnificent Park Avenue duplex where society icon Brooke Astor lived for decades is about to be sold for a fire-sale price. The prospective buyer is Daniel Forcart, 47, a Swiss investment manager, reports The Post’s Jennifer Gould Keil. He’s agreed to pay $19 million for the pad, which was listed in 2008 for $46 million. A real estate source said the discount “had nothing to do” with the notoriety of the apartment, where Astor’s son, Anthony Marshall, confined her as he tried to steal her fortune be fore she died at 105 at her Westches ter estate in 2007. He’s appealing his conviction. A source close to Forcart told Page Six he was drawn to 778 Park Ave., designed by Rosario Candela, and could picture himself spending “the rest of his life” there. “The architecture is fantastic, the proportions of the rooms are magnifi cent — there is so much light and 360 de gree views,” the source said. But the place needs a lot of work, say others. Forcart has yet to receive board approval, but it’s ex pected to come soon.

    Read more:

  99. NJGator says:

    Barb – Come shopping with me! Email Stu for details. And sorry to disappoint, but that is not our actual bidet. Ours is just as ugly though.

    It took Lil Gator and his classmate all of 1 minute alone in that bathroom to try to turn it on and start playing with it. That disgusting thing has got to go.

    Funny thing is that the tax assessor has it rated as the highest quality bathroom on the property record card. Arguing that alone, will be worth it enough to go to hearing at the County Tax Board.

  100. relo says:

    Main Story -If you’re over (or close to) the 183 day limit in NY, to expect anything less than a contentious fight from the State is bad advice. If they didn’t seek advice, well, should have called Nom.

  101. relo says:


    Re: Ice Storm: Oh, behave.

  102. gator (92)-

    I would bet my left testicle that this woman’s (yawn) “marketing campaign” will first create an initial impression not unlike a fart from a 590 lb. bedridden woman who has eaten two pounds of braised kohlrabi and then chased it with a pound of M&M’s.

    Then, it will utterly fail.

    It will, however, make a nice topic for 120 or so posts from a bunch of granola-addicted, nitrous-sniffing fellow travelers on Barfistanet, though.

  103. gator (92)-

    I’m ready for my closeup, Mr. De Mille.

    “Sawhney is making sure the house is ready for its close-up – she’s even having local artist Donna Grande stop by on Sunday to show some of her paintings.”

  104. Do the paintings come with the purchase price of the house, you stupid ginch?

  105. gator (102)-

    I’d pay good money to watch you fight the town over the value of an ass-washing machine.

  106. grim says:

    From the FDIC:

    Bank Closing Information
    February 11, 2011

    Peoples State Bank, Hamtramck, MI
    Sunshine State Community Bank, Port Orange, FL

  107. leftwing says:

    Where’s my Lynah? A sideline, not even honorable mention?

    “Never mind that they stole most of their cheers from Cornell,….”

  108. The fuzzy little bears now discuss some fun, new topics:

    – silver at zero contango
    – CBs all over the planet hold fugazy, “salted” gold bars
    – Bernank and his thugs in death battle against a new fiat, backed 80/20 by PMs/Gold.
    – when gold goes into backwardation, the endgame is on
    – silver to $75 and beyond by fall ’11; Blythe Masters will resign & disappear

  109. Barbara says:

    103. Relo
    I would not throw any key parties, we are decent people! ;P

  110. Kuqi's golden boot says:

    #39 Nom,
    I think I’m probably still barred from setting foot in Licarrdi, I $crewed them over so badly.

    October 2001, the 20yo Honda I was driving blew the head gasket on Rt17 in Moonachie. I decided to treat myself to an upgrade. I was looking for a 2DR Explorer Sport to go skiing in. I started searching and found one in Licardi very under priced. they had one low miles for $10.5K. I took a trip to their showroom one night after work. It was just before the month end and this was the month after 9-11 so the lot was empty. I saw their white board at one point and their numbers were horrible. I drove up to the lot and all the sales guys are mad as the boss has them all outside and there are no customers. I hand the sales guy that walks up to the car a printout of the listing and say “I’m here to look at this.” We find the truck and it has a sticker on it for $16,999. Sales guy looks at the flyer looks at the car truck and says Oh they put the wrong sticker on. I take a look over the truck myself and it looks sound. I don’t haggle price as this is a steal and start on the paperwork. I put on the contract that it is subject to a mechanics inspection as I was going to pay one of those services that will send a mechanic to look over a car and produce a report for $100. He takes the paperwork to the turret for approval and that’s when the fun starts.

    The turret manager comes out and says, “this price is wrong”. I had him the printout and say “that’s the price on the Internet”. At that point we head off with two other sales guys (they were bored and curious) to an office to fire up a PC to check Autotrader. By the time the modem connects and we get the listing up, the Used Sales manager comes in. He has a stock sheet and realizes that the the stock code was crossed with the box van sitting beside it on the lot. The Used sales guy starts cursing out the guy who sent the list to the internet and saying “he can’t afford to sell the truck at that price”. As people start moving out of the room , I say to him “Where does this leave me, the listing price should stay?”, He rounds on me and says “What the fcuk do you mean, your not selling it for that price”. I say that “I’m not looking to sell, I’m trying to buy it and I have a listing price and a written up deal sheet” I hold up the papers that I had taken from the table. The look on his face as he realized I wasn’t one of the sales guys was priceless. I went back to the floor and they all went back to the turret and a massive argument broke out between the Used manager and the Turret manager. The last words were the turret manager saying “Your guys fcuking up is not costing me a sale” and the Used guy heading off saying “Just get rid of it and him!”

    The Turret manager comes over and he is smiling. We finish up the paperwork and I head home. The next day, my mechanic calls the car is sound and the Used manager offered him $300 to botch the report and call it a cut and shut. He turned it down.

    I head down the day after with a cashiers check and drove off with a sweet ride.

    Now here is the kicker, the day after I get a call from the finance department. The person who processed the paperwork forgot to get me to endorse the cahiers check so they can’t cash it, could I possibly just drop into the dealership to sign, it would only take a moment. I strung them out for about 2.5 weeks before the calls stated threatening to take the car back. When I was leaving after signing the check I ran into the Used manager. I smiled and said “Hi” and I thought he was going take a swing at me.

  111. chicagofinance says:

    Cripes…what a clusterfcuk!

    As Hoboken’s Riverfront Crumbles, the Cost for Repairs Soars
    Librado Romero/The New York Times
    On the Hoboken riverfront, Pier C, foreground, and Pier A, rear, which needs major work.
    Published: February 7, 2011
    In Hoboken’s evolution from blue-collar port to upscale pocket of bistros and condominiums, the waterfront underwent the most profound transformation. Factories and docks gave way to promenades and parks with drop-dead views of Manhattan, drawing crowds that fed the nearby hotels and shops along the much-promoted Gold Coast.

    Enlarge This Image

    Librado Romero/The New York Times
    Mayor Dawn Zimmer hopes state and federal aid will help with repairs.
    So it is of real concern that much of that lovely, popular waterfront is falling apart.

    Several pieces of walkway, park and road along the Hudson River have collapsed, and engineers have discovered that a heavily used park needs major renovations to avoid the same fate. In the last few weeks, the cost estimate for repairs rose by millions of dollars that the city does not have. Yet these are not ancient structures: most were built in the 1990s, and in some cases neglected maintenance and unheeded warnings may have made matters worse.

    “Our waterfront is the treasure of Hoboken, one of the basic pieces of our economy,” said Dawn Zimmer, who has been mayor of the New Jersey city since 2009. “Having to make major repairs to things that are barely 10 years old was not at all what I expected.”

    Hoboken’s tale is a variation on themes heard around the country — politicians who preferred cutting ribbons on new projects to taking care of old ones, governments that spent their way into debt even when times were relatively good, and new executives taking office and finding that things were much worse than they realized.

    There have been similar problems in other towns along the Hudson River Waterfront Walkway, conceived as an unbroken strip from the Bayonne Bridge to the George Washington Bridge, but they have been most pronounced in Hoboken.

    “It seems almost criminal that it’s come to this,” said Helen S. Manogue, president of the Hudson River Waterfront Conservancy, which promotes the walkway project. “It seems like nobody allowed for what a brutal environment the river is to build in — not the towns, not the developers, not the engineers.”

    A small piece of Hoboken’s promenade caved in four years ago, at Castle Point Park. For a while, that seemed to be the extent of the damage, and in any case, the city had other crises looming.

    Hoboken far outspent its revenue, City Council members accused the mayor of concealing a fiscal crisis, and some of its spending turned out to violate state law. In 2008, the state appointed a fiscal monitor to oversee the city’s books, an indignity usually reserved for poor municipalities and school districts. Layoffs and a big property tax increase followed.

    Ms. Zimmer became Council president in 2009, and rose to the city’s highest office through what is, in New Jersey, a time-honored route: her predecessor was indicted. Peter J. Cammarano III, mayor for just a month, went to prison for taking illegal campaign contributions.

    His was hardly an isolated case of corruption. The Hoboken mayor and the Hudson County executive who commissioned much of the waterfront improvement in the 1990s also served time. So did the developer who did some of that work, for paying bribes to the county executive.

    Weeks after Ms. Zimmer took office — she was elected in her own right in fall 2009 — a chunk of Sinatra Field slumped into the river. The park, with a heavily used soccer field and riverfront walk, sits on century-old timbers that were riddled with shipworms, or teredos, tiny mollusks that bore into wood. Engineers had warned of this problem when the field was being developed in the 1990s and had recommended replacing the pilings, but that advice was disregarded.

    “I think the attitude was, ‘Well, we’ll fix it later,’ ” Ms. Manogue said.

    Last February, another small piece of the promenade collapsed, near Weehawken Cove.

    The city hired engineers to examine the damage, develop a repair plan and, while they were at it, take a look at Pier A, where another park was built in the ’90s. That pier, just north of the train station and ferry terminal, sits on more than 1,000 steel beams that were encased in concrete down to the mud.

    “We didn’t have an inkling there would be a problem” with the pier, Ms. Zimmer said, but the city decided an inspection would be prudent. “Honestly, we expected it to be fine.”

    It was not. The mud had receded below the concrete jackets, exposing the steel to corrosive salt water. There is no structural danger yet, but inspectors say that without repairs, there will be.

    In October, a 50-foot stretch of Frank Sinatra Drive, the road alongside the river, caved in. There had already been two smaller collapses on that road, which had been built 13 years before.

    Groups that have promoted walkway development hesitate to lay blame, in part because there are so many places it could go. Sinatra Field was built by the City of Hoboken, Pier A was restored by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the drive was built by the county, other towns handled their own waterfront projects and the State Department of Environmental Protection reviewed and approved them all.

    Last year, Hoboken approved a $12 million bond sale to pay for its share of waterfront rehabilitation. But in January, a firm hired by the city, Boswell Engineering, said the price would be closer to $20 million — this in a city with a total budget of about $100 million.

    Now Hoboken has to figure out what to do. Officials want to repair Sinatra Field, but moving it inland might be cheaper. There seems to be no way around the expensive business of shoring up Pier A and the walkway, but Ms. Zimmer said she held out hope for state and federal aid.

    The mayor also wants to create a schedule and a budget for the kind of routine inspection and maintenance that would prevent more unpleasant surprises. But she refused to express any anger or frustration about how the city reached this point.

    “I can’t go back in time and change the decisions that people made,” she said. “I just hope we’ve learned that it’s more cost-effective to act for the long term.”

  112. Barbara says:

    101. Gator

    How are you going to approach the shopping? Do you have places in mind? Internets? I used to love looking at the Expo in Bridgewater, nice selection but I would never pay most of the prices there. Its out of business, probably because of cheapskates like me. There is a “Great Indoors” in Woodbrige, I *think* it is still in business. Not sure…

  113. Libtard says:

    Barb (98): Did an 80/10/10 with the second 10% (piggyback) essentially being a bridge loan until I convert it into a Heloc at 3.75%, hopefully tomorrow at TD bank. Could have done the 20% downpayment but wanted to keep more cash in the account just in case. Would hate to have to sell any IRA’s or take a 401K withdrawal in the case of an emergency. I looked at going FHA, but you really pay a lot more for it and we really didn’t buy a home to foreclose on it. Plus 10% down gives us a chance to still jingle mail it if Clot’s visions turn real. With 20% down it’s almost an impossibility.

    So far, AIG would only offer us up to 70% LTV, PNC 80%, but I’m pretty sure TD will do 90%. Worst case scenario, we put down another 2 or 3K. No biggie.

    Let me know if you have any more questions.

  114. chicagofinance says:

    Barb: I think they sell these at Papyrus…..

  115. Al Mossberg says:


    Dont worry about converting your 401k. The gov is going to do it for you. Hope you like US treasuries.

  116. Barbara says:

    how many times do you have to be told….?

  117. Essex says:

    113. Nice story. Once I had JMK BMW send me the title for the car. I had paid them with a cashier’s check given to me from my bank (they financing)….for a minute I thought hmmmmm.

  118. grim says:

    I need to take a Xanax before I can set foot in a dealership. And it’s for their protection, not mine.

  119. D says:

    Oh, wow…
    Saddle Ridge Rd, Sparta, NJ Loan Details

    Recording Date: 5/26/2010
    Amount: $13,684,095

    Market Value

    -2,894 %

  120. chicagofinance says:

    This is valuable:
    Landry Fields as Modell’s Employee Selling His Own Jersey

  121. chicagofinance says:

    The Madoff/New York Mets saga has inspired traders to dream up a new answering-machine message for Citi Field: “Hi! Thank you for calling the Mets ticket-sales line! If you wish to purchase a season-ticket package, please press 1. If you wish to purchase all or part of the team, please press 2.”

  122. speedkillsu says:

    Fifty best Google street view shots …..

  123. stdgeiihu says:

    upJfgK dijbbtlducwr, [url=]mxgjqrbsipuh[/url], [link=]uswkrbaiiaxq[/link],

  124. Note to Third World jerkwaters: before you depose your dictator, secure the gold.

    Then again, whatever Mubarak stole might be salted.

    “It’s official: as Egypt was burning, Mubarak was stealing the gold. When we reported, presumably jokingly, two weeks ago that the Egyptian Central Bank may have been plundered, it turns out we were pretty much accurate once again. For all those wondering why Mubarak was refusing to hand over power for the past two weeks as hundreds of people were dying, we now have the answer – it was all just to make sure he transferred his assets, especially gold, to safe regimes (in the process paying tens of millions in commissions to that most noble of jobs – the banker class). The Telegraph reports: “A US official told The Sunday Telegraph: “Hosni Mubarak used the 18 days it took for protesters to topple him to shift his vast wealth into untraceable accounts overseas, Western intelligence sources have said…There’s no doubt that there will have been some frantic financial activity behind the scenes. They can lose the homes and some of the bank accounts, but they will have wanted to get the gold bars and other investments to safe quarters. The Mubaraks are understood to have wanted to shift assets to Gulf states where they have considerable investments already – and, crucially, friendly relations. The United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia have frequently been mentioned as likely final destinations for Mr Mubarak and possibly his family.”As usual, we remind readers that according to the World Gold Council, Egypt had 75.6 tonnes of gold at the end of 2010. Should this number not be reduced following Mubarak’s plundering, we will know just how pervasive Tungsten is in the world central banking cartel.”

  125. Mickey Jones says:

    B4 you buy any house make sure you check the sex offender website. Realtors are not obligated to share this information with you & you’ll be sorry you purchased once you find out who is living next door. Buyer beware…

  126. Libtard says:

    “you’ll be sorry you purchased once you find out who is living next door.”

    Free baby sitting opportunity?

  127. Whip Inflation Now says:

    “you’ll be sorry you purchased once you find out who is living next door. Buyer beware…”

    Son of Sam?

  128. Whip Inflation Now says:

    If you own paper you are down 10-20% as compared to tangibles. If you own real money, you are ahead. How U doin? After the maestro destroys the currency (JP Puppet), he now makes sense? Fry his ass.

  129. Beyond Thunderdome says:

    Black Hawk Down: Terrible story (19 us soldiers died), amazing movie.

  130. Schrodinger's Cat says:


    In theory a salted bar shouldn’t be that hard to detect. Set the bar up in an electrical circuit to act as a resistor and measure the resistance when the current is applied.

    The resistivity of pure gold is 22.1 and the resistivity of pure tungsten is 52.8. Assuming the circuit is set up correctly then any significant deviation ( +/- 10%) from the target value of pure gold should cause immediate suspicion.

    If you are only trying to measure a long thin wire you could use a standard ohm meter, but given you want to verify bars, you would set it up as follows:

    hook up a sample to be tested to a voltage source and measure the current
    going through the sample and the voltage across the sample, the
    resistance can be calculated from Ohm’s law: R = E/I where R is
    resistance in ohms, E is voltage in volts and I is current in
    amperes. Once you have resistance, you can calculate resistivity.
    Resistivity is a factor, which when multiplied by the length of the
    sample and divided by its cross-sectional area, will yield the
    (R*A)/L = Re
    R = resistance
    A = cross sectional area
    L = length
    Re = resistivity

    Any deviations from the standard value would have to be verified through metallurgical analysis for true verification. However the resistivity test can be performed in minutes once the test rig is set up. You can purchase everything you need for this test rig at home depot (although if you really use this setup you want some higher grade components, easily available off the web). For a more reliable test rig you would want to run known pure bars first for verification of the setup and to verify you tolerance band (i.e +/- 10%).

    PS, they sell commercial devices that do exactly this

  131. Whip Inflation Now says:

    Backwardation to 2015? Last time this occurred? Never. Seems extreme? Nah, just take a look at the fed’s books; makes fannie/freddie appear to be AAA. You have not witnessed parabolic until you watch Hi-Yo. When the bull is snorting, shiny busts thru, Hi-Yo leads the sprinters and then shiny blows the roof off. In the past 10 years its only gone lateral, now in phase 2. Phase 3;

  132. Whip Inflation Now says:


    When Dow/Gold goes to 1-1, who cares if it’s wrapped up Tom Brady’s black and blue ass?

  133. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Quarterly expatriate report for the quarter ended 12/31 came out last night.

    Approx. 398 names on the list (give or take a few).

    Again, these aren’t huge numbers, but consider the following:

    A. Attorneys in this area say that this number is underreported.
    B. More people have expatriated in the last year and a quarter than in the previous several years combined.
    C. Other countries have quietly (and in the case of the U.K, publicly) put out the red carpet for our wealthy.
    D. According to the IRS, the top 1% of taxpayers pay upwards of 40% of tax revenues, a percentage that Obama wants to increase.

    Am I the only one that sees a trend in the making?

    tick , , , tick . . . tick . . .

  134. Shore surprised at this Guy says:

    LCN? In the docks of NJ? No?! Really?

    I never woulda thunk it:

  135. It is nice to know that these folks can somehow afford these taxes. It must be nice.

Comments are closed.