Case Shiller and New Home Sales

From Forbes:

Ahead of the Bell: New home sales

More people likely purchased new homes in June than the previous month, although sales are expected to remain below healthy levels.

Economists forecast that new-home sales rose to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 323,000 in June, according to a survey by FactSet. The Commerce Department will release the report at 10 a.m. Tuesday.

In May, sales fell 2.1 percent to an annual rate of 319,000. That’s less than half the 700,000 homes per year that economists say is typical in healthy markets.

In a separate report Tuesday, Standard & Poor’s/Case-Shiller will release its home-price index for May. The index measures home prices in 20 of the largest U.S. metro areas. It sank in March to its lowest levels since 2002. It rebounded slightly in April because of a traditional influx of spring buying.

Housing remains the weakest part of the U.S. economy. Sales of new homes have fallen 18 percent in the two years since the recession ended. Last year was the worst for new-home sales on records dating back a half century.

High unemployment, larger down payment requirements and tougher lending standards are preventing many people from buying homes. And some potential buyers who can clear those hurdles are holding off, worried that home prices have yet to bottom out.

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221 Responses to Case Shiller and New Home Sales

  1. grim says:

    From Courier Post:

    Home sales fall sharply

    Home sales in South Jersey plummeted 22 percent in the first half of 2011, as credit standards remain high and consumer confidence stays low.

    Real estate prices also lost ground, especially in Salem County, where homes sold for an average 13.5 percent less than the same period last year, according to the Prudential Fox & Roach Realtors HomExpert Market Report released Monday.

    Homes are taking longer to sell, from 86 days last year to 104 days.

    The slowdown is disappointing but not unexpected, said Steve Storti, PruFox senior vice president.

    “Last year, buyers wanted to take advantage of the government’s tax incentive. This year, they don’t have that sense of urgency.”

    In Burlington County, homes shed 4.3 percent of their value, with a median price of $202,875. In Camden County, prices slipped 5.7 percent to $165,000. In Gloucester County, there was a 2.7 percent decline to $180,000.

  2. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  3. Stench of death on everything. Ugh.

  4. Essex says:

    Yes but trust the government. If we just raise the debt ceiling everything will be alright. My home value will rocket, my **** will grow and inch or more, and my bank account will increase exponentially.

  5. gary says:

    I’m a little slow so you’ll have to be patient. Explain to me again why a 20% drop is not going to happen?

  6. Confused In NJ says:

    3.There Went Meat says:
    July 26, 2011 at 7:34 am
    Stench of death on everything. Ugh

    Sad, but you are right. Things have gone too far! Country is doomed, as it joyfully sodomizes itself into oblivion. Sodom & Gommorah, look back and turn into a pillar of salt, because you can’t find 10 good men in Washington or Trenton.

  7. seif says:


    will everything be alright if we don’t raise the debt ceiling?

    didn’t think so. the debt ceiling is a phony, bogus “crisis.”

  8. JJ says:

    Housing must be a good investment, HOV can affordf to pay almost 21% on its bonds. I guess that means home prices must rise at least 22% a year for next four years for this bond to pay off. Sounds like a sure thing.

    Basic Analytics
    Price (Ask) 75.832
    Yield to Worst (Ask) 20.729%

  9. grim says:

    When you can’t manage the current crisis, it is sometimes helpful to manufacture one that you can.

  10. Anon E. Moose says:

    seif [8];

    Never let a crisis go to waste.

  11. Confused In NJ says:

    10.grim says:
    July 26, 2011 at 8:45 am
    When you can’t manage the current crisis, it is sometimes helpful to manufacture one that you can.

    They do that all the time. WWII got us out of the previous Depression. Interesting that WWII took a lot less time then Afghanistan. I like the way the Medical Profession creates Fake Diseases like Cholesterol, to divert your attention from Real Diseases that they don’t have a clue about.

  12. nj escapee says:

    Never let a crisis go to waste.

    Just like the previous a-hole POTUS used 911 to set up his cronies for gubmint contracts through DHS.

  13. seif says:

    #11 never pass up the opportunity to create a fake crisis for your political gain, while harnessing the anger of a bunch of dim-witted hypocritical closeted racists who willingly vote against their own interests to make you more wealthy and less accountable, all the while projecting everything that is wrong with you onto others.

  14. Anon E. Moose says:

    seif [14];

    a bunch of dim-witted hypocritical closeted racists who willingly vote against their own interests

    Thank you for reminding everyone that you and the annointed left have flawless and all-encompassing knowledge about what is in the best interest of each and every human being, and woe be to us should we not bow to your benevolent leadership.

  15. seif says:

    no worries. are their any other subjects that you would like me to shed some light on?

  16. grim says:

    From MarketWatch:

    May U.S. home prices up for second month

    U.S. home prices rose in May for the second month, up 1%, according to the S&P/Case-Shiller 20-city index. “This is a seasonal period of stronger demand for houses, so monthly price increases are to be expected and were seen in 16 of the 20 cities,” said David Blitzer, chairman of the index committee at S&P Indices. April’s data was revised lower to show 0.6% growth vs. an initially reported 0.7% gain. Over 12 months, prices were down 4.5% in May.

  17. JJ says:

    Breaking News Home prices in 20 major cities dip 4.5% year over year, but monthly prices rise for 2nd straight month, S&P Case-Shiller says.

  18. grim says:

    From CNBC:

    Home Prices Edge Higher in May: S&P/Case-Shiller

    U.S. single-family home prices showed a slight improvement in May, the first time in nearly a year they have not fallen on a monthly basis. Prices were still down compared to a year earlier, however, a closely watched survey said on Tuesday.

    he S&P/Case Shiller composite index of home prices in 20 metropolitan areas held steady on a seasonally adjusted basis and in line with economists’ expectations, according to a Reuters poll.

    The last time the seasonally adjusted index rose month-over-month was in June 2010, shortly after the home buyer tax credit expired.

    On a non-seasonally adjusted basis, the index rose 1 percent, the second month of gains in a row, the report said.

    “This is a seasonal period of stronger demand for houses, so monthly price increases are to be expected,” David Blitzer, chairman of the index committee at Standard & Poor’s, said in a statement.

    “The concern is that much of the monthly gains are only seasonal.”

  19. 30 year realtor says:

    North Jersey real estate market remains exceptionally weak. Friday I listed a 6 year old colonial in Bergenfield. Property sold for $645,000 in 2/06. List price is $479,000. So far I have received a single sign call and zero calls from agents via MLS to show the property.

    Seller is a buyer of mortgages in default that I do consulting work for. My advice to the seller was list the property for $399,900 and expect a sale price around $375,000. The seller has chosen to ignore my suggestion due to a recent assessment by the municipality of $525,000 and a Zillow value of $551,100. Seller feels my advice would leave money on the table.

    This anticipated comp killer with a drop of about 40% since peak is an extreme example of what is going on in the marketplace. I’ll post updates.

  20. Libtard in the City says:


    Where’s your wine store going to be located in JC? I used to live on Christopher Columbus Ave. and then on 6th Street. I know the area super well and I might be able to provide you with a sneak critique of your location prior to your opening. I could also tell you which spots used to have the best food (although, this was like 13 years ago).

  21. grim says:

    NY Metro area down 3.2% year over year

  22. Al Mossberg says:


    30 year,

    Yikes! Strategic default is looking like its inevitable for most home owners who bought after 2003. The only thing standing in the way are the high rents.

  23. Essex says:

    t minus one minute til 401k evaporation….

  24. Essex says:

    Carl Quintinia is a c*nt

  25. 30 year realtor says:

    #23 Al Mossberg – Frightening part about this particular property is that the seller has refurbished the entire house. Condition is very good and does not factor into the price drop.

  26. Al Mossberg says:

    Laurie Goodman On Why Another 11 Million Mortgages Will Go Bad

    A major bear on the housing market, Amherst Securities’ Laurie Goodman has predicted since 2009 another housing crash as banks are forced to liquidate tons of bad loans.

    Up to 11 million mortgages are likely to default, according to Goodman. This is a frightening figure, seeing as only several million have been liquidated since the crisis began. When it happens the market will be flooded with supply.

    Goodman reached 11 million by projecting default rates for non-performing loans, re-performing loans, and underwater loans.”

  27. Al Mossberg says:


    30 year,

    Sell? Sell to whom? We better open up some Chinese restaurants and start some advertising in East Asia. We dont need these illegal Mexicans who cant afford crap. We need to do like Vancouver and get the Chinese with money over here.

  28. Anon E. Moose says:

    seif [16];

    are their any other subjects that you would like me to shed some light on?

    Yeah, how do you deal with the pain of such a large head so far up your a$$?

  29. Anon E. Moose says:

    30-yr [20];

    We saw an interesting characteristic in a house we looked at this weekend. The glossy sell-sheep printed by the realtor didn’t list the price, only “Inquire for price”. Listing agent didn’t even believe in the seller’s ask. I guess it seemed a waste to have to reprint all those sheets and throw away the first run after the inevitable proce drops. I guess writing it in pencil would have looked tacky — those digital 7-segment displays that could be changed on demand were too expensive.

  30. Libtard in the City says:


    Pretty funny typo.

  31. 250k says:

    30-year (20)
    >>North Jersey real estate market remains exceptionally weak.

    Bah humbug, no weakness in Westfield. Take 1029 Harding for example, 8 year old colonial in a lovely part of town. Sold in 2006 for 1,130,000. Just sold last week for 949,000.

    … wait a minute, oh…. ouch I guess. OK, well there was a home on Edgewood that also sold for 879,900 with last previous sale in 2004 at 859,000 so not factoring in the commissions and fees to close blahdy blah, prices are still up 2.4% from the 2004 levels based on that comp.

  32. seif says:

    29 – i have always been a fan of “ass play” so i find it quite stimulating.

    Anon – I am surprised that you included yourself in the “dim-witted, racists against their own interests” group. i know nothing about you other than what you post here but i wouldn’t have placed you there…but you would know better than I. reading my statement again i have come to some other conclusions: i should have said “against their own financial interests.” i know nothing of the emotional interests of the people i was referring to and that is mostly what the politicians/corporations leading them astray prey on. also, i realize that i too am often against my own financial interests; my own views of right and wrong and the things that i believe would be for the greater good would often cause a harder hit to my own pocket, whether it be in taxes or the costs of goods and services.

  33. gary says:

    This anticipated comp killer with a drop of about 40% since peak is an extreme example of what is going on in the marketplace.

    Any questions?

  34. gary says:

    …The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity. She doesn’t. But she is a typical white person who, uh, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn’t know there’s a reaction that’s been been bred into our experiences… – Barack Hussein Obama

  35. Anon E. Moose says:

    seif [33];

    I don’t consider myself dim-witted, racist (closeted or otherwise), nor – strictly speaking – voting against my self-interest when I oppose redistribution of wealth, even though there are those who surely have more wealth than I do and I would find use for money stolen from them and given to me. On the latter point however, there are far greater numbers with less who would pick my bones clean, and I would have no grounds to oppose, had I embraced the same ideology.

    No, I simply recognize such hubris as the stinking pile of crap that it is. I find that those who claim to know better than the individual what is in their best intersts are surely projecting the speaker’s interests onto their mute ward (such as the dim-witted, the animals, the environment) and find the use of a puppet convenient to defelct criticism that the speaker is merely ammasing power and influence to themselves. Any objection from the puppets has already been dealt with (because they are dim-witted and racist, the speaker themself said so, QED). Such omniscience is quite frankly impossible, and its pretension is the height of arrogance.

  36. Shore Guy says:

    “Explain to me again why a 20% drop is not going to happen?”

    Because it would not be fair.

  37. seif says:

    soooo…you are defending a position or group that you are not (not dim-witted, not racist, etc.) a member of? isn’t that the exact thing that you are accusing me of doing?

    we’ll have to agree to disagree. no worries. i think we both do agree that housing will drop even further so we should just leave it at that.

  38. Confused In NJ says:

    Obama could save a fortune if he outsourced the Wars to China. The 1 Trillion per year would fall to 1 Billion.

  39. Confused In NJ says:

    Taliban would be extinct if we put Taliban/Rice stir fry on the outsourced military menu.

  40. 3b says:

    #20 30 year: I cannot believe somebody paid 645k in Bergenfield, even at peak. That town has seen better days.

  41. Juice Box says:

    The shadow inventory keeps growing.

    What’s happening to the homes of all those defaulted borrowers that we hear about? Many of those properties are a part of so-called shadow inventory. This is the sort of limbo between when a home’s loan defaults and when the property is put on the market for purchase.

    The increase shown above is staggering. The shaded area shows mortgages more than 12 months delinquent or in foreclosure (darker blue) and those seized by the bank (lighter blue). The sum has risen from just below 2 million in early 2009 to 3.35 million in April 2011. That’s an increase of more than 67.5% over this period of about two years.

    Also interesting: despite accumulating more defaulted properties, banks are very careful not to increase the number of loans sold very much. Loans sold has been very steady from 80,000 to 95,000 over this period. So recently prices have begun declining again even though the inventory for homes available for sale is being kept relatively low compared to the number that should actually be available to buyers.

    According to Goodman’s presentation, even though homes sold are only about 90,000 per month, inventory is growing by around 60,000 per month. So the homes sold each month would have to increase by two-thirds just to keep up with the growing inventory — not to begin to cut the 3.35 million homes in the shadows. To conjure up enough demand to meet 150,000 sales instead of just 90,000, home prices would almost certainly have to fall faster.

  42. JJ says:

    Numbers Numbers my head is hurting

    Juice Box says:
    July 26, 2011 at 10:36 am

  43. Juice Box says:

    re # 41- 3b – I have been saying for a while now Bergen County areas has been transforming into an Asian and South American immigrant destination.

    Bergenfield Demographics.

    * White alone – 11,569 (45.2%)
    * Asian alone – 6,724 (26.3%)
    * Hispanic – 4,971 (19.4%)
    * Black alone – 1,837 (7.2%)
    * Two or more races – 398 (1.6%)
    * Other race alone – 76 (0.3%)

  44. v23 says:

    And to think the sellers declined my offer because their agent told me the market is going to improve in 3 months……even with all the data I provided with my offer. If you can’t sell it while it’s fresh AND when homes typically draw more offers (seasonal) shouldn’t that send a message?

  45. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Sales of new single-family houses in June 2011 were at a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 312,000, according to
    estimates released jointly today by the U.S. Census Bureau and the Department of Housing and Urban Development.
    This is 1.0 percent (±12.5%)* below the revised May rate of 315,000, but is 1.6 percent (±14.1%)* above the June 2010
    estimate of 307,000.
    The median sales price of new houses sold in June 2011 was $235,200; the average sales price was $269,000. The
    seasonally adjusted estimate of new houses for sale at the end of June was 164,000. This represents a supply of 6.3
    months at the current sales rate.

  46. Juice Box says:

    re #45 – “their agent told me the market is going to improve in 3 months”

    If the house you bid on was in one of the Unicorn Hamlets dotting New Jersey then perhaps it will.

  47. v23 says:

    No Unicorn Hamlet here. Just dealing with another seller who thinks their property is unique and special.

  48. JJ says:

    Some companies are mining photo- and video-gathering sites using facial-recognition software. If you were among those rioting in the streets of Vancouver after the National Hockey League championship, for example, a potential boss could find you the same way the police tracked down those responsible for some of the bedlam — in the pictures.

    Interesting stuff

  49. 30 year realtor says:

    The Bergenfield property I wrote about is a poster child for the real estate bubble. It should have never been built where it is. Way too much square footage for the area. Surrounded by negative off site influences. Real estate taxes over $15,000.

    After comp research, the next thing you want to do as an agent to determine value/saleability is to establish a buyer profile to justify the value of the property. In some cases there are multiple buyer profiles for a property. In this case there is a single profile for the likely buyer, a MORON.

  50. Mikeinwaiting says:

    Green shoots from the Fed.
    July Richmond Fed Mfg. Survey: -4, to -1 (above 0 = growth). Shipments flat at -1, new orders -5 to -5, jobs -10 to 4.

  51. JJ says:

    Trouble is Asian is a kooky demographic. Hicksville is becoming all Indians and nearby Syosett is becoming all chinese, yet they are both listed as becoming more “asian”.

    Asians are a funny bunch. They invade yuppie towns with good schools, short commutes and turn them into Flushing and then in turn move further out to another yuppie twon with good schools and a slightly longer commute then turn that into flushing then move again. Oddly they are trying to get away from themselves but since they move in packs soon as first family invades a nice town they follow. Indian families do same thing. But interesting white, spanish and black family dont. Wait is this racist, or an observation. I am basing it on how flushing queens went to bayside, great neck, Manhasset, Syosset etc. It keeps moving further out as they try to move to a better neighborhood, in 100 years they will be living in boats off montulk.

    Juice Box says:
    July 26, 2011 at 10:40 am
    re # 41- 3b – I have been saying for a while now Bergen County areas has been transforming into an Asian and South American immigrant destination.

    Bergenfield Demographics.

    * White alone – 11,569 (45.2%)
    * Asian alone – 6,724 (26.3%)
    * Hispanic – 4,971 (19.4%)
    * Black alone – 1,837 (7.2%)
    * Two or more races – 398 (1.6%)
    * Other race alone – 76 (0.3%)

  52. Juice Box says:

    re: # 50 – 30 year – “Buyer Profile of Moron” Keep your chin up, Cognitive ability has a heritability of between 40 and 80 percent and so there are bound to be morons abound.

  53. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (29) moose,

    Don’t argue w/ zealots. Just sell them enough rope to do themselves in.

  54. 3b says:

    #47 If the house you bid on was in one of the Unicorn Hamlets dotting New Jersey then perhaps it will.

    3 months from now, November, nah, nah, nah. We will be in the winter doldrums by than.

  55. 3b says:

    #44 True. In the cass eof Bergenfield, the schools are not considered good, and there are kids from NYC attending the schools, but not living in the town. The taxes are insane. I have heard instances where people in single family hoems rent out rooms to help pay mtg/taxes. The commercial/Washington Ave district is run down. Overall it has become a sad looking place.

  56. Anon E. Moose says:

    seif [38];

    You threw gratuitous slurs (dim-witted, racist) at what you presume is the electoral base of the political party that would oppose your apparently prefered policies. And those people are dim-witted, etc., because they vote against their self-interest. You know this to be true because you know better than they what their self-interest is. QED.

    I am not presuming to speak for anyone but myself. All I did was dare to question your authority, apparently the highest crime of all in the leftist ideology.

  57. NJGator says:

    Mayor of Montclair downsizes and buys new house. Lists old house for rent at $6,800/month. GSMLS 2867406. I guess he’s not all that confident in the local real estate market.

  58. Essex says:

    59. nice place. but who the hell downsizes before they sell. ????

  59. NJGator says:

    The same guy who can quit his FT job to play mayor. When you get a better understanding of his math skills, our recent budget issues and crazy tax increases make a lot more sense.

  60. Double Down says:

    June 2008…

    America, this is our moment. This is our time. Our time to turn the page on the policies of the past. Our time to bring new energy and new ideas to the challenges we face. Our time to offer a new direction for the country we love.

    I am absolutely certain that generations from now, we will be able to look back and tell our children that this was the moment when we began to provide care for the sick and good jobs to the jobless;

    this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal; this was the moment when we ended a war and secured our nation and restored our image as the last, best hope on earth.

  61. 3b says:

    #61 NJ: I have access to breeding Unicorns. Would that help Montclair?

  62. seif says:

    “while harnessing the anger of a bunch of dim-witted hypocritical closeted racists who willingly vote against their own interests”

    that refers to no one other than the dim-witted, closeted racists that willingly vote against their own ‘financial’ interests, not an entire base. it is not “gratuitous” because this demographic does exist. it is not an unwarranted characterization. if you are not a part of it then your commentary on it it is just as bunk as you think mine is.

    i think we are done with this subject. we see it differently. i accept that.

  63. NJGator says:

    3b 63 – Does that come with pixie dust?

  64. Anon E. Moose says:

    Double Down [62];

    That speech inspired this gem [the gift that just keeps on giving].

  65. Happy Renter says:

    [19] From the CNN article Grim cited … “The concern is that much of the monthly gains are only seasonal.”

    But as we know, certain towns, where the unicorns roam freely in Skittle-dotted meadows, enjoy a unique micro-climate where the only season is “Spring Selling Season.” Hence, these monthly “seasonal” gains are always in season.

    This, my friends, is how Brigadoon-on-Hackensack achieves 26% year-over-year increases while the mortal lands suffer.

  66. Libtard in the City says:

    I think the mayor’s rental was originally listed for $7,500. So why is he renting it out insteading of selling? It’s not like the market for >$6000 per month rentals is exactly booming. Even if they got $6,800 a month for it, the first 5 months rental income will just pay for the taxes on that half unfinished 4600 sq. foot monstrosity. If he’s paying any of the utilities, he’ll struggle to make a penny on it. Oh poor mayor Fraud! Always talking about how Montclair’s property values are holding up so much better than that of our neighboring towns. I bet, he’s suffering financially.

  67. 3b says:

    #65 That can be arranged at an additional cost of course.

  68. Happy Renter says:

    [64] I love how elitist libs, who are typically well-off, consistently vote “against their economic interests,” while remaining utterly dumbfounded that conservative voters might also vote against their own economic interests.

    Typical lib snobbery, that only libs should have the privilege of voting on principle; the rest of the population should just follow that carrot dangling in front of their noses and vote based strictly on economic interest.

  69. Simply Ravishing HEHEHE says:


    Layoffs Watch ’11: Credit Suisse

  70. Anon E. Moose says:

    I confes taht I lacked sufficient interest to suffer through dear leader’s oration last night, but I did catch just a clip of it on the news, and what I heard motivated me to read the text. I hate the condescension of speaking down the the little people that drips from his choice of language.

    Understand –- raising the debt ceiling does not allow Congress to spend more money. It simply gives our country the ability to pay the bills that Congress has already racked up.

    . . .

    If that happens, and we default, we would not have enough money to pay all of our bills -– bills that include monthly Social Security checks, veterans’ benefits, and the government contracts we’ve signed with thousands of businesses.

    “Understand” – thought bubble . o O [I know this has been droning on but FOCUS your attention on this point, idiots].

    “Bills that Congress has already racked up.” – Bills? We’re talking about the operation of the government infrastructure, not paying the local utility for electric service. Speak like an executive with responsibility for and command over some weighty issues. Try to project a little confidence — hint, you don’t do that by saying ‘Don’t call my bluff’; that only projects weakness. What an empty suit.

  71. Juice Box says:

    Clot is this your trade?

    Someone dropped a bomb on the bond market Thursday – a $1 billion Armageddon trade betting the United States will lose its AAA credit rating.

    In one moment, an invisible trader placed a single trade that moved the most liquid debt market in the world.

    The massive trade wasn’t placed in bonds themselves; it was placed in the futures market.

    The trade was for block trades of 5,370 10-year Treasury futures executed at 124-03 and 3,100 Treasury bond futures executed at 125-01.

    The value of the trade was about $850 million dollars. In simple terms, if that was a direct bond buy, no one would be talking about it.

    However, with the use of futures, you have to have margin capacity behind the trade. That means with a single push of a button someone was willing to commit more than $1 billion of real capital to this trade with expectations of a 10-to-1 return ratio.

    You only do this if you see an edge.

  72. Libtard in the City says:

    I love when this place goes partisan.

    Here, I’ll make it simple for you. All of you platform defenders and attackers are simply followers. Sheep, about to be fleeced. If people actually stopped to think for themselves progress might actually occur. Now where are my shears?

  73. Anon E. Moose says:

    Con’t [72];

    The American people may have voted for divided government…

    No they didn’t; the voted your party out in droves. The only reason government is divided is that more of your side wasn’t up for reelection. Time will fix that.

  74. Juice Box says:

    re: Moose been saying for a while now it is the least effective use I have seen of the bully pulpit since Carter. Carter 2.0 we have, they is literally NOBODY marching in the streets over this.

  75. Libtard in the City says:

    I didn’t listen to the presidents speech. That is for the sheep. I simply prefer to look at the results of a politicians actions. Everything you see on TV, hear on the radio or read in the papers is whatever will sell the most advertisements to each medium’s targeted audiences. Baa, Baa!

  76. Anon E. Moose says:

    Lib [74];

    We’re all gonna get sheared (or, to channel Clot, No one will be spared). The fight is to avoid being slaughtered.

  77. Kettle1^2 says:

    FHA May Be Next in Line for Bailout: Delisle and Papagianis

    The nationwide decline in house prices has created a vacuum in the U.S. mortgage market. Private financing for home loans has all but dried up and the U.S. government is now guaranteeing almost every new mortgage. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have received most of the media’s attention, but policy makers need to focus on the third leg of the housing- support stool: the Federal Housing Administration.

    The FHA has some major accounting problems. Left unaddressed, they could spook the markets, lead the FHA to seek a federal cash infusion and further enrage taxpayers. These outcomes can be avoided — but only if policy makers are more transparent about the risks involved in guaranteeing mortgages.

    The FHA provides private lenders with a 100 percent guarantee against defaults on home mortgages that meet certain underwriting criteria, such as a minimum down payment and credit score. Traditionally, the FHA has served first-time homebuyers and low- to moderate-income families who pay an insurance premium for this loan guarantee.

    As private-financing options have disappeared, the role of the FHA has grown. Its market share has increased to about 30 percent today from 3-4 percent in 2007. That’s because the agency is now practically the only game in town, accepting borrowers with down payments of as low as 3.5 percent. As the last few years have made clear, sizable down payments — or “skin in the game” — are the key to avoiding defaults in the near term and to achieving a stable housing market in the long term.
    FHA’s Bottom Line

    So how has the FHA fared financially in serving borrowers with low down payments? As the housing bubble burst in 2007, and the number of mortgage-related defaults started to climb, the FHA’s capital reserves declined to $3.5 billion from $22 billion.

    This means that the FHA is on the verge of requiring a bailout to support its outstanding mortgage guarantees, which are projected to exceed $1 trillion in 2011.

    The credit quality of FHA lending can be improved with better underwriting standards, such as requiring higher down payments and premiums. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to sound the alarm because flawed accounting measures show that new FHA loans will be profitable for the government. As a general rule, each year the government sets insurance premiums high enough to give the appearance that they will more than cover any losses from homeowners who default.
    Budgetary Illusion

    But no one should take comfort in the FHA’s projected profit. It’s purely a budgetary illusion.

    According to the Federal Credit Reform Act of 1990, federal-budget analysts must strip out any costs that the government incurs when it bears market risk in guaranteeing loans, including mortgages. Market risk is the likelihood that loan defaults will be higher during times of economic stress and that those defaults will be more costly. Excluding costs for market risk is particularly irresponsible at a time when foreclosure rates are elevated and doubts remain over whether home prices will fall further.

    If the rate of loss on the FHA’s new guarantees ends up higher than expected, that will probably be because the overall economic recovery has stalled. In such a scenario, any entity guaranteeing mortgages — be it the taxpayer-backed FHA or a private company — will suffer bigger-than-expected losses. …………..

  78. Shore Guy says:

    Why we need Belmar, Avon, Bradley Beach, OG, and Asbury to all remain is the question. Would it really be that big of a hardship for Bradley to serve OG and Avon?

  79. Shore Guy says:

    “We’re all gonna get sheared ”

    If by that you mean bent over a straight-back chair, I agree. I would not be surprised to see everything the Shore Family has scrimped and saved and worked hard to acquire become worthless in short order. We have seen the enemy, Pogo.

  80. NJGator says:

    Prosecutors Say Florida AG Fired Them For Going After Mortgage Lenders

    Two former Florida prosecutors are accusing the state Attorney General of firing them for going after mortgage lenders too aggressively.

    The Sun Sentinel reported that Theresa Edwards and June Clarkson were abruptly fired by Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi at the end of May and say the attention they were focusing on combating mortgage fraud was the reason.

    “Obviously we did our job too well,” Edwards told the Sentinel. “We were making too much noise.”

    Bondi’s chief of staff Carlos Muniz released a long statement to the newspaper which said that Edwards and Clarkson were let go because of problems related to “proper identification and analysis of legal issues … judgment in discussing matters related to pending investigations with third parties … and … professionalism to opposing counsel.”

    But both women had consistently received strong evaluations, according to the Sentinel. So what gives?

    Edwards told the newspaper in an email that she and Clarkson “were pleased that the Attorney General’s Office was dedicating more attorneys to foreclosure fraud, but said she also found it curious that they would do so without letting the two lawyers provide any transition notes on their cases,” the newspaper reported.

  81. Anon E. Moose says:

    Gator [59];

    Really nice. I especially like the servants quarters with its own loft and easy access to the back staircase adjacent the kitchen. A real ‘man of the people’ lived there.

  82. NJGator says:

    Re 84 – I was an undergrad at UF at the same time as the AG’s brother. This kid was an idiot and had zero common sense. His lifelong ambition was to become a bankruptcy attorney so he “could help people”. Upon graduation, he got elected into the UF Hall of Fame and became a partner at Williams & Connolly. Classic tale of failing forward.

  83. 3b says:

    #82 shore: As long as residents perceive their town (real or imagined) to be better than a surrounding town, than it will never happen

  84. Essex says:

    74. Want real change? Put Ron Paul in charge. Then it’ll get interesting.

  85. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Mayor Fraud wants 6800 for a town now for commuting, I can get a nice apartment next to central park for that price. Why commute when you can be there.

    i love Karma it crops up in the best ways

  86. chicagofinance says:

    Yeah, but you will still be a fuking asshole.

    Essex says:
    July 26, 2011 at 7:46 am
    Yes but trust the government. If we just raise the debt ceiling everything will be alright. My home value will rocket, my **** will grow and inch or more, and my bank account will increase exponentially.

  87. JJ - AKA Two Hands says:

    Florida AG bio

    Pam Bondi

    Age: 44

    Occupation: Prosecutor and spokeswoman for the Hillsborough State Attorney’s Office.

    Home: Tampa

    Describe your style: Conservative but trendy.

    Style icons: Anne Hathaway, Molly Sims, her mom. (“She has a beautiful, classic style.”)

    Favorite stores: Paradise Island Boutique, which she calls Tampa’s “best-kept secret” for duds from the hottest designers. And she loves the shoe department at the Saks Fifth Avenue OFF 5TH outlet store in Ellenton.

    Best recent deal: Ruffled cardigans from Forever 21 for under $20. “You cannot tell the difference from the $100 ones.”

    What’s worth a splurge? Designer shoes and purses. “Anything leather,” she said. “I’d rather have one nice pair of shoes than 10 outfits.”

    Items you can’t live without: The classic 60-inch pearls her parents gave her (“I wear those more than anything”) and her 20-year-old Abercrombie & Fitch jeans. “Every rip in them is legitimate,” she said. “They’re more comfortable than pajama bottoms.”

    Her favorite trends: Long necklaces, huge purses and one-shoulder tops and dresses.

  88. Essex says:

    90. stfu Donny.

  89. Barbara says:

    Ok, its been awhile since I bought a home and I’m looking over my good faith closing costs sheet. Says here I’m paying for two title insurances, one for the lender and one for myself. I never paid for two before. Anyone know what this is all about?

  90. Essex says:

    91. Hottie…..typical Tamp’on

  91. v23 says:


    -Owner’s Policy – covers the market value of the home on behalf of the “buyer”.

    -Lender’s Policy – covers the mortgage on behalf of the lender

  92. chicagofinance says:

    Shore: that clips all the PO’s in Hoboken except the main one at the PATH….WTF?

    I guess everyone just uses the UPS store…

    Shore Guy says:
    July 26, 2011 at 12:14 pm
    Post Office closings in NJ:

  93. Shore Guy says:

    “Does that come with pixie dust?”

    Pixie or angel?

  94. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    here are some nice apartments on the west side belwo his ask

    FU mayor fraud, your so f*cked I absolutely love it

  95. Barbara says:

    Seems like a waste of money if the market loses another 10% after I buy. MIRITE?

  96. Barbara says:

    Also, I thought title insurance was about searching out and insuring for outstanding liens….

  97. NJGator says:

    Essex/JJ – Yes. Typical Tamp’on. No income or checking account listed in her 2010 financial disclosure forms.

  98. NJGator says:

    Oops. Meant to say no checking, savings or retirement accounts.

  99. NJGator says:

    TAMPA (2011-7-21) – Attorney General Pam Bondi is fighting back against allegations two of her foreclosure fraud investigators were forced to resign because of political pressure.

    The two lawyers helped expose robo-signing and helped shut down so-called “foreclosure mills.”

    They were forced to resign in May or be fired. A statement from Attorney General Pam Bondi issued Thursday says they were forced out because of poor performance, while the two women suggest political pressure did them in.

    Theresa Edwards worked for three and a half years in the consumer crime section of the attorney general’s office — a lot of that time with her friend and colleague, June Clarkson.

    When the foreclosure crisis hit Florida, Edwards says they started getting complaints about robo-signing.

    People were signing documents with fake names. They didn’t have the required witnesses. And they weren’t reading the documents they were signing.

    “They were just basically shoving paperwork through. They weren’t reviewing it properly,” Edwards said.

    They were recognized for helping to bring robo-signing to national attention. The scandal forced banks to delay thousands of foreclosures as they re-evaluated how things were done.

    In January, Bondi took over as attorney general. That’s when Edwards says things changed.

    “Rather than sending out subpoenas, as you would expect investigators to do, they wanted us to send out letters inviting people in to discuss the problem with us,” Edwards said.

    “Well, it certainly gives the target the heads up that we’re coming and we’re looking. And if there’s anything going on that’s not the way it should be, it gives the opportunity to cover up or hide whatever’s there,” she said.

  100. v23 says:

    Barbara – Title search makes sure that the property is free and clear of any and all liens before transferring to your name. However, the insurance is there to cover you in case something turns up somehow in the future.

  101. Essex says:

    104. When you look like that you don’ need money of your own….(cue JJ)

  102. Essex says:

    Yay! We’re a third world nation now~~

  103. Libtard in the City says:


    I used to have a vcr tape which had 6 hours of bench-clearing brawls. 80% of them involved badbaoy Schultz and the Broad Street bullies. I don’t have HBO, too cheap, but I’ll watch it for free when someone PTPs it. Thanks for the heads up.

  104. Juice Box says:

    Wu’s weiner went wild with a teenager. Isn’t an “unwanted sexual encounter” sexual assault?

  105. Essex says:

    109. It was inspiring. Really amazing story about these guys and how they approached the game, their team, and the town they called home. As a lover of all things Philly thanks to my wife I had to catch up on this history.

  106. Essex says:

    The coach was known as the “Fog” this enigmatic dude who rarely spoke to the guys but communicated through a blackboard with quotes and diagrams. He was a brilliant strategist though. Engrossing stuff. About 1976 as a 10 year-old I was at the peak of my skills as a player….(sad but true!)

  107. chicagofinance says:

    Put it in your Netflix queue…it will come up eventually….

    Libtard in the City says:
    July 26, 2011 at 1:49 pm
    Essex, I used to have a vcr tape which had 6 hours of bench-clearing brawls. 80% of them involved badbaoy Schultz and the Broad Street bullies. I don’t have HBO, too cheap, but I’ll watch it for free when someone PTPs it. Thanks for the heads up.

  108. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Essex as a kid who grew up a ranger fan if shultz and bobby clarke need my blood to live I would withhold it. I hate everything about philly.

    Stockton college graduate spent way to much time in philly, learned to hate it with a passion

  109. 3b says:

    #09 Lib: I would appreciate your thoughts Re: #95

  110. Mikeinwaiting says:

    3b re 95 Taxes?

  111. Libtard in the City says:


    I don’t know Brig-on-Hack pricing, but someone once told me that you must bid 26% higher than the current asking price to have a change to own there.

    Seriously, that house has way too much tile for my liking, including a tiled bedroom??? There’s no central air and that tree (which is the focus of the backyard apparently) looks dead. The galley living room is a bit of a turn off for me as well.

    I wish I could be more helpful, but I’ve had my fill of prissy towns. I’d also be concerned with the precarious property tax issue over there. As for a price, I really have no clue how homes are priced over there.

  112. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [108] SX

    “Yay! We’re a third world nation now”

    Where have you been? We’ve been one for awhile.

  113. Libtard in the City says:

    Quite honestly, they lost me at ‘SOUGHT AFTER.’

    In my +2 years of home searching. I found that the listings with the most flowery descriptions tended to hide the most ugly issues. If the house is nice, the photos will speak for themselves.

  114. Libtard in the City says:

    Sorry ’bout my grammar today, but too busy to read what I’m writing.

  115. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [114] pain, SX

    As one that grew up a Bruins fan, a pox on both your houses.

  116. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Shiny hit $1,620 a little while ago.

    Hope and Change.

  117. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Screw you nom at least you got to drunkenly celbrate a cup this year, been 17 years for me. If it wasn’t for the flyers your bears would be next due to one word, Milbury

  118. 3b says:

    #17 All noted The tax situation is a major concern for me. However in looking around at other towns, between the increase in monthly train ticket price, and parking, not to mention gas driving to station, I will eat up alot of my potential tax savings. If I could get this in low three’s I might consider it. Even with the drawbacks it is probably in the best shape out there vs anything else in that asking price range. I must have inhaled too much pixie dust at the train station this morning to even consider staying.

  119. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    When I read this case, the first thing that came to mind was “what fcuking chutzpah. I hope no one from my alma mater advised this guy.”

    Then it occurred to me to look to see where he was from. Nothing in the case about his state or his business, but there was a now-defunct website listed. So I googled both terms, and I got a solid hit.

    So where is this guy from? You guessed it.

    New Jersey.

  120. 3b says:

    #16 mike: 9k Low for Brig on Hacky taxes.

  121. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [123] pain

    Having lived near South Street for 5 years, I know that Screw You is a friendly greeting in Philly.

    Screw you too. I had to wait 39 years for Lord Stanley’s mug to be hoisted by my B’s.

  122. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [127] redux

    Whoops. I meant to say New York, not Philly.

  123. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [123] pain

    And 17 years??? Boo hoo. The Habs fans are saying STFU (in french) right now.

  124. Libtard in the City says:

    Well as a Devils fan, I’ve been quite fortunate.

    Now Boston fans as well as Philadelphia fans are both annoying with their pride in local sports teams, but at least the Boston fans don’t immediately turn to violence when someone offers a different viewpoint like Flyer and Eagle fans do. Of course, you’ll also here about how everything else in New England is better than in the Garden of Eden, so it’s not much of a trade-off.

  125. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Nom they can suffer forever as far as I’m concerned. they are the only fans more intolerable than yankee fans

  126. Barbara says:

    95. 3b
    butting in, I have to agree with Lib on all that tile. Its a cute house, which is another way of saying tidy but small. That’s not an insult. I would have to factor in the cost of new flooring in my bid and maybe a redo of the bathroom, not a fan of glass block. Can’t give any advice on that bid since I do not know the area.

  127. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [131] pain

    When I was young, I cared little about Red Sox-Yankees, but I hated the Habs and their fans.

    Ken Dryden is the Antichrist.

  128. Juice Box says:

    Sweet Home Alabama (Bankruptcy Edition)

    BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (AP) — Alabama’s largest county began laying the groundwork Tuesday for what would be largest U.S. municipal bankruptcy after three years of trying to work out a solution with Wall Street to more than $3 billion in debt linked to a massive sewer rehabilitation project tainted by corruption.

  129. Jets12 says:

    3B. That house has is prolly in play @ $370K or so for better or worse due to its location – which is great for the couple w/the jobs in NYC and kids, the schools, etc. The taxes are exceptionally low for these neck of the woods. The agents handling the property are a team that as a matter of protocol mark up 10% fishing & knowing the property’s not worth asking. See

    That house packs a lot in it footprint but all small spaces. I’d be curious to see what the sq footage is per the tax records. If you include the basement in the square footage total, those taxes are much much lower than a RE house of equal square footage. The house does have some nice landscaping/brick work that should account for something.

    I think it will sell in that $360K-$370K range to someone who values the location to public transport/schools.

  130. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [131] pain

    true story. A friend went to a Sox-O’s game at Camden yards a few years ago. Two birds fans were in front of him talking. One said “Damn Red Sox fans are so obnoxious. Are there any fans more obnoxious than Boston fans?”

    His friend thought about it a second and said “Yankee fans.” The first guy agreed with him.

    My friend said he was chuckling to himself the entire game.

  131. Comrade Nom Deplume says:


    Reminds me that a friend of mine, a jewish, hockey-loving, lifelong Philly guy, recently moved to Birmingham. If he wasn’t ultra-right, he’d probably be a bit uncomfortable down there, and not because of the humidity.

  132. Painhrtz - Salmon of Doubt says:

    Nom I think that Lemaire is the antichrist just because on his impact on hockey after he retired. Stupid trap. to support your point though, Dryden did become a lawyer after hockey so he already has no soul ; )

  133. 3b says:

    #35 I agree it is decent, but with all the uncertainity in the town , I have regained my sanity, and won’t put a bid in. It is appraised at 350K. me personally I do not think it is worth any more than 325K tops.

    The one directly across the street sold earlier this year at 399K, after the previous buyer paid 480K in 2006. It was not nearly as nice as this one, nor had it been updated in years, and, the back yard backs up to the municipal parking lot. Some buyers remorse there I would think.

  134. Simply Ravishing HEHEHE says:


    Layoffs Watch ’11: UBS

  135. 3b says:

    #32 Barbara: Definitely on the small side, but would work for our needs now. No kids at home full time. What appealed to me in my temporary state of madness, was the fact that it is in very good condition, and has been maintained, as opposed to most of the junk out there. There would not be that much to do. It also has a full walk up attic.

    Had I any confidence in the town going forward I would throw a bid in, as it would be just easier. That being said there is no reason to do something stupid.

  136. Libtard in the City says:

    Pain, Lemaire might have created the trap, but the elimination of the red line (two-line pass) has since made executing the trap nearly impossible. So what did Lemaire do? He brilliantly convinces offense to play defense first to keep the goals against down, which is way easier than bringing the goals for up. Power play be damned! He knows that you can never lose a game when your opponent can’t score a goal. It’s really brilliant to watch. The man even convinced offensive juggernaut and super-star Scott Stevens to become a stay-at-home defensemen. Just incredible.

  137. Juice Box says:

    re: #140 – shrinking pie corporate politics as the financial sector starts eating its own.

  138. Kettle1^2 says:

    I thought meredith Whitney was a crack pot?!

    Jefferson County Retains Klee Tuchin For Upcoming Chapter 9 Legal Advice…..

    Snowflake that triggers the avalanche?

  139. Libtard in the City says:

    I just checked some stats on Jacque and Stevens just to make sure I wasn’t talking out of my butt. In Jacque’s first year, Stevens had 78 points in 8 and the Devils lost in the conference finals to the Rangers. The next year, in 48 games (strike-shortened seasons) Stevens only had 22 points and the Devils won the cup. After that, Stevens offense dropped to almost 1 point per 4 games as the Devils eventually went on to win two more cups, and that’s without any real offensive superstars.

  140. Juice Box says:

    re: #144 Kettle1 – JJ is a playa he knows the bond crisis is just getting warmed up, all that matters to JJ is if Bergabe has his itchy finger on the buy button for this debt don’t miss part II of TBTF.

  141. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    SX, this is for you:

    It’s being advertised on Bloomberg. It also reminds me of a quote attributed to Lenin that I am sure you are familiar with:

    “The capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.”

  142. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [138] pain

    ” Dryden did become a lawyer after hockey so he already has no soul ; )”

    That’s right, I forgot that.

  143. sas3 says:

    Moose #36…

    even though there are those who surely have more wealth than I do and I would find use for money stolen from them and given to me…

    I would say most posters here are well above the point where they can get something from the people wealthier than them. If any, many of our taxes subsidize the cap-gains 15% rate, carried interest loop holes, farm subsidies, and to feed the fetishes of chicken hawks that got rid of the draft only to send mostly poor young kids to unnecessary wars.

    Re, your constant complaints about implied accusations of racism… You shouldn’t get worked up with the claim that there is a significant racist crowd in the tea party [why else would an old grandma on medicare support oil subsidies and medicare cuts after she claims that she voted for a GOP candidate in 2010 because Obama will cut medicare].

    At what point does one cross a line of racism? After saying hundreds of times “we should unconditionally support the president in times of war” and then turning around and chanting round the clock about how the president is not American enough? After saying debt doesn’t matter for generations and suddenly asking for a severe cut in programs that are running surpluses? After chanting “take the government’s hands off my medicare”? After calling the Norway guy “muslim terrorist” for a few hours and then realizing that he is an x-tian, start with, “his parents divorced when he was young, and the kids at the youth camp are the ones that tempted him to kill them”?

    Here is a hypothetical question: out of all the “multi-generational” people here, there is a very high likelihood that at least one of two have some ancestors that were racist, had slaves, and fought for the wrong side in at least one of the big wars. Simple statistics. But, as they say, each person thinks that his/her mother is the best cook ever…

  144. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [144] kettle,

    A friend of mine from the NYU tax program was an associate there for awhile. I will have to pick his brain about this.

  145. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [148] Bob,

    Agreed. Jefferson county was an outlier, but central falls is a lot like a lot of other places.

    Obama bailing out cities and states, notably blue ones, features prominently in the early part of my novel draft.

  146. sas3 says:

    Gary, #35…

    You should actually listen to his speech on race relations that time. He explains in plain terms that even though there was a degree of racism in his grandmother’s views, there still was way more good in her than bad. You drew the exact opposite conclusion.

    Do you think that the culture of systematically keeping an entire race as slaves for centuries, denying them voting rights for a while, disappears overnight? It takes a few generations for that to leave the system… it will sustain more in some spots more than other. The residence time distribution for such things has a really long tail…

  147. JJ - AKA Two Hands says:

    Jeff county has an idiot in charge you did a whole bunch of auction rate stuff and interest rate swaps that blew up in his face.

    The debt thing is going down to the wire in a game of chicken. Waiting for suckers to panic at last minute to start bargain buying on August 1st.

    I worked at one big firm that had affirmative action programs for blacks. To qualify your family had to be a descent of slaves otherwise you were branded a NBB, Non Black Black. Originally went they started the program it was open to all blacks then wealthy blacks from the islands, Bermuda, Africa after they finished their Harvard MBA took all the good jobs. Our Prez is a big time non black black.

  148. JC says:

    3b: New “For Sale” sign in WT in the area you liked. Decent-looking cape. I’ll get particulars if I can.

  149. 3b says:

    #56 Thanks JC. I appreciate it. Do you know nay one who commutes by train froWT, and drives to Emerson or Westwoodto Emerson, or Westwood?

  150. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [151] sas3

    “You shouldn’t get worked up with the claim that there is a significant racist crowd in the tea party [why else would an old grandma on medicare support oil subsidies and medicare cuts after she claims that she voted for a GOP candidate in 2010 because Obama will cut medicare]. ”

    Why else indeed? Clearly no room for alternatives in your view. Nope, anyone who takes a position inconsistent with their demographically-based, presumed self-interest must be a racist. Or am I misreading the logic of your statement?

  151. sas3 says:


    “Our Prez is a big time non black black.”

    Really? He beat the Clinton political machinery — something that the GOP couldn’t do (and that too, without using the “McCain has an illegitimate black child” kind of tactics). He has to have a couple of brain cells to pull that off so cleanly. He was the president of Harvard Law Review. He won an election with a pretty good margin (and it wasn’t a 5-4 margin). Don’t go Trump…

    Funny how the words like “black” and “kenyan” get thrown around [even though O is half white and half black — spare the “he checked ‘black’ on his forms” because people wouldn’t have called him white if he ticked that for race], and how he is “affirmative action”, and then if someone posts that some tea … partiers are racist, all hell breaks loose. Like, how Fox News gets worked up when international news papers mention that the Norway gunman is an x-tian.

  152. Simply Ravishing HEHEHE says:


    It is contained.

  153. sas3 says:

    Nom, #158… tell me why else would that grandma lie about medicare? Don’t tell me that within a period of two months she realized that medicare is bad…

    We are talking statistics, so there will be quite a few that will fall into this “bin” vs other alternative bins. Out of curiosity, what are the more likely alternatives?

  154. Al Mossberg says:



    The mindset of a liberal is similiar to a child. They base their decisions off of emotions not fact. Save yourself the frustration.

  155. Anon E. Moose says:

    Sas [151];

    Re, your constant complaints about implied accusations of racism…

    Sas, you need to tune up your reading comprehension. Seif didn’t imply anything; s/he called the Republican base writ large racist in full voice. [14]

    Of course, when I challenged the statement it was walked back, tail between legs, as supposedly referring only to some smaller number who really are racist [33], with the back-handed implication that I must have some sort of guilty conscience to see myself as being swept up in that group.

    You’ll also see that I made the same point you did, that those below me would pick my bones cleaner that I could ever hope to get by redistributing the wealth of those who have more than I. But thanks for agreeing with me.

    As for grandma’s politics, the corruption of my bloodline by the racism of my ancestors, and the various and sundry straw men, its just so much background noise.

  156. chicagofinance says:

    sastry: 2 things (#1) you are one of the biggest racists on the board; (#2) if you have never seen reverse discrimination in action, then you have a lot to learn

    sas3 says:
    July 26, 2011 at 4:41 pm
    JJ, “Our Prez is a big time non black black.”
    Really? He beat the Clinton political machinery — something that the GOP couldn’t do (and that too, without using the “McCain has an illegitimate black child” kind of tactics). He has to have a couple of brain cells to pull that off so cleanly. He was the president of Harvard Law Review. He won an election with a pretty good margin (and it wasn’t a 5-4 margin). Don’t go Trump…

    Funny how the words like “black” and “kenyan” get thrown around [even though O is half white and half black — spare the “he checked ‘black’ on his forms” because people wouldn’t have called him white if he ticked that for race], and how he is “affirmative action”, and then if someone posts that some tea … partiers are racist, all hell breaks loose. Like, how Fox News gets worked up when international news papers mention that the Norway gunman is an x-tian.

  157. sas3 says:


    Nope, anyone who takes a position inconsistent with their demographically-based, presumed self-interest must be a racist

    Not even close. The group I am referring to is the one that would instantly change their opinion 180 degrees if they are given information on race/religion of someone. Something parallel to Norway gunman case.

    So, in the political arena, if the size of the group that really believes all of the following items is unusually large, there has to be some explanation beyond “sudden outburst of public display of patriotism”: Ronald Reagan never raised taxes, Obama authorized TARP, Obama raised taxes, Obama was not born in the US, GOP is fighting to save medicare, etc. Especially so if they are actually voting against their short-term and longer-term interests.

    So, such an accusation would not apply to someone like you or shore if you are stretching the truth here and there, because one can find some plausible reason for why you fight that fight (though my take is that 3% isn’t worth it)… Can one really say the same about a majority of the TP’er group?

  158. Barbara says:

    Eventually everyone’s ideology bites them in the ass. Racist grandma gets her medicare cut, Lefty McDullard’s salary at Mediocre U gets cut in the name of Education For All. Ain’t that a b*tch?

  159. Juice Box says:

    re #165 – re: “The group I am referring to is the one that would instantly change their opinion 180 degrees if they are given information on race/religion of someone.”

    Is there only one group that does that? Stop being a wacist sas3.

  160. sas3 says:

    chi, when did I ever say anything about any race? You are basically projecting. I wouldn’t even call you a racist because you have to be a human to qualify.

  161. Essex says:

    If the morons in Washington had a clue they would refinance the debt now at some very low interest rates….and get a free set of steak knives.

  162. sas3 says:

    Juice #167,

    There are many groups that do that. It is a full spectrum too — some of my really close friends hold some really horrible views about some subjects, but overall, there is more good in them than bad. Likewise, I am sure I have enough bigoted views — but calling a fake patriot a fake patriot or calling a thinly-veiled racist subgroup within the TP a racist group aren’t bigoted views. Pompous, a$$holish views, may be, but not bigoted.

  163. Essex says:

    “Everyone has a plan until they get hit.” — Mike Tyson

  164. sas3 says:

    Barb, point taken. But, do you think the following are equivalent wrt ideology:

    “Cut the deficit to zero *NOW*, cut programs or eliminate government jobs, or let the US default”

    “Undo W’s tax cuts for all in 2010/2012 and end the wars like you said you would [or we will not support you]”

  165. Kettle1^2 says:

    hehe 160

    didnt they say that about fukushima?

  166. Kettle1^2 says:


    TPTB are proud of your proficiency at running through the maze and responding to the electric shocks in the desired manner.

  167. sas3 says:

    Moose, in the past couple of years, there has been only one major political group (a subgroup of TP) that has done several instant 180 degree turns — on deficits, on personal and religious freedoms, on government, etc. For fk’s sake, a big portion they even say that inter-racial marriages should not be allowed (for others, mind you). You think pointing those inconsistencies is childish?

  168. Kettle1^2 says:


    both major parties are consistently corrupt, inept, and unreliable to the people who vote for them. The only consistent and dependable behavior either party exhibits is their sale to the highest bidder. They make high volume hookers look like catholic school girls. The only way to win the game is to refuse to play it on their terms.

  169. See NYTimes says:

    About the doupoly political corruption. Friedman had an article about americanselect dot com.

    Essentially a web based, political candidate sorting process where no one contributes more than 10k.

  170. A.West says:

    I’m in a mixed-race marriage and vote in my economic self interest. I also score well on intelligence tests, (though my wit is an acquired taste.) Does that make me a good person according to the standards implied by message #14?

  171. Essex says:

    I married up (IQ wise) but enjoy long walks on the beach and voting for imbeciles.

  172. sas3 says:

    Ket, it is not 50-50 all the time, right? There are ridiculous stuff that some groups pull from time to time. If you look at “nappy hair” episode in an NYC school, or even the Shirley Sherrod case, you see that the common thing is that a group of morons misinterpret a decent and positive thing and have a fake outrage. In both cases, the outraged people are idiots, irrespective of their party affiliation.

    I think it is better to call a spade a spade when we see it (and risk getting loudly counter-accused) than to take the CNN approach of “it happens on both sides, so let’s leave it at that”. The proverbial Dante’s Inferno, so to speak.

  173. Fiddy Cents on the Dollar says:

    Re : Central Falls, RI

    Just outta curiosity, I looked up this hamlet to see the population……19,376 within 1.3 square miles.

    How does a town that size end up with 214 police and firefighters on pension ????

  174. Anon E. Moose says:

    Sas3 [180];

    call a spade a spade

    Congratulations! See, you’re racist like the rest of us! Welcome to the club!

  175. Shore Guy says:

    My grandfather was in a mixed marriage too. He was from Naples and grandma was from Florence.

  176. sas3 says:

    Moose ??

  177. 3b says:

    #180 sas There are racists everywhere, and in every group. However, sometimes it seems as if when non-whites engage in it, there is a reason for it. When whites do it is unacceptable.

    The same thing with diversity. I always get the feeling that the diversity cheerleaders always direct it at non minorities, as if it is us that have to make all the adjustments, which I find offensive. It is often times implied that the diverse need to do nothing accept be diverse. It is the non diverse if you will who need to change. If we are a diverse society than that means give and take by all.

    Two final points, I would say that most Americansdo not have ancestors who engaged in slavery as most did not get here until after the civil war. The ones that may have been here before were for the most part poor and in the large northern cities.

    With all due respect to President Obama, he seems to embrace his Black heritage and strives to stress he understands Black Americans, and yet his ancestors were not slaves nor does he have roots in the south. Bill Clinton was far more Black if you will than Mr. Obama. One final point as much as Mr. Obama may admire his father, it was that same father that abandoned him. He was raised by his white mother and grandmother. So when he gently chasties Grandma for her racist tendencies he may have also gently pointed out that too many Black fathers abandon their children.

    He would be much more authentic and honest if he did.

  178. Shore Guy says:

    Moose: a large member if the deer family, native to the upet midwestern US and western Canada.

  179. Shore Guy says:

    Moose: a large member if the deer family, native to the upper midwestern US and western Canada. Similar to elk.

  180. chicagofinance says:

    Don’t use that racist language around here…….

    sas3 says:
    July 26, 2011 at 6:38 pm
    I think it is better to call a spade a spade when we see it

  181. sas3 says:

    Shore, you wouldn’t believe some of the sh!t that happens here in Indian community. It’s so many dimensions and layers. So many people box themselves into a corner by putting a facade of how “culturally true” they are… and put ridiculous constraints on their kids. Other relatively older people can only helplessly watch the drama and privately offer support to the young kids.

  182. sas3 says:

    Chi, ok… I will concede the point. So, now you can call me a racist whenever I use such terms, would it be fine if someone points out that there may be some racist elements among the 46% of GOP republicans that think inter-racial marriage should be illegal, or both are completely equivalent? Or worse, does calling them out makes the caller more racist?

  183. sas3 says:

    “So when he gently chasties Grandma for her racist tendencies he may have also gently pointed out that too many Black fathers abandon their children.”

    He was saying that someone that loved him dearly also had flaws. The overall message is that everyone has flaws, so grant some leeway [after acknowledging the flaw]. His speech on race relations was a very positive one.

    BTW, he wasn’t chastising “others’ grandmothers”… He notes that his grandmother had some views he didn’t approve of, and of course he does note that his dad abandoned him. He wasn’t saying anything about others’ grandmothers, so your expectation that he should have talked about others’ fathers is a bit unreasonable…

  184. NjescaPee says:

    Sas3, you are way off base. The next generation has no such proclivities

  185. sas3 says:

    3b, are you implying that there is some equivalence? With respect to racism, it has happened a few times when I mention something I find offensive and make a wise crack at how bad some attitude in US is, and get pointed that it is actually worse in Indian community here — the only response I have is “true” and shut up.

    However, we are not talking about a bunch of Indians going out on rallies demanding that US should default on the debt here, right.

  186. sas3 says:

    #192… ?? A big chunk of the weekend involved counseling a college going neice… Can’t give any more details than — will concede the point if you doubt my statement.

  187. still_looking says:


    email me? jmzeigerAToptonlineDOTnet



  188. sas3 says:

    Essex #179…

    I married up (IQ wise) but enjoy long walks on the beach and voting for imbeciles.

    I argue with smart people that are unwilling to concede an inch. That makes me a big idiot.

  189. Shore Guy says:

    When I said August 2 is a droo-dead date, I meant August 10:

  190. Fabius Maximus says:

    Cut Cap and Balance is Stop Scrap and Start over

  191. Kettle1^2 says:

    ……Even as the Congressional Budget Office has just released its score of the proposed Boehner plan, the president’s spokesman Jay Carney was out earlier hemming and hewing for about 9 minutes in front of reports before it was made clear that Obama does not even have an actual plan to paper which the CBO can score. Yet surprisingly enough, as the National Review Online presents, even without actually having any plan, Obama is still happy to announce he will veto Boehner’s plan. It is one thing to veto one plan over……

  192. Juice Box says:

    Re: 196 – idiot? No and stop groveling.

  193. Juice Box says:

    Re: 199 – plan B no? Guy with the billion dollar short on UST may be right.

  194. still_looking says:

    better melanoma message than I can do on short notice.

    Off to a night in the Pit.


  195. Al Mossberg says:



    I wonder if it is Jimmy Rogers.

  196. Kettle1^2 says:

    since we’re addressing racism tonight…….

    Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee Calls Out Republican Racism in Debt Ceiling Fight

  197. Neanderthal Economist says:

    “I’m a little slow so you’ll have to be patient. Explain to me again why a 20% drop is not going to happen?”
    gary that graph is national and inflation adjusted, and the red dotted line looks like it was drawn with magic marker..

  198. gary says:


    Just wait two more years and that red dotted line will be replaced by a solid black line.

  199. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (204) ket,

    that’s her job, to find racism under every rock. just like McCarthy found communizm under every rock..

  200. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    (204) ket,

    that’s some scary anti-white stuff there. Like MOVE on the internet.

  201. morpheus says:

    WTF. .. I leave you people alone for a brief period of time and y’all go racial on me!

    A. West–I am too in a mixed race marriage. However, I expect to be paroled for good behavior!

  202. BC Bob says:

    “and the red dotted line looks like it was drawn with magic marker..”

    Be patient. Soon, it will like like it was drawn by a knife thru hot butter.

  203. Juice Box says:

    Re: 208 – this ain’ t the only place, time to strike up the band I say!

  204. Fabius Maximus says:

    Just for Chi

    As a Prius driver, I personally resent the implication that I shop at Whole Foods.

  205. Fabius Maximus says:

    #188 Chi
    False Alarm
    Dear Evan: In the spirit of your recent explanation of “rule of thumb” perhaps you might like to address the following: “Call a spade a spade.” A friend of mine from Britain used a variant of this expression, changing an aspect of it in the interests of humor, noting that in not mincing his words, he “calls a spade a bloody shovel.” His sense was that the phrase had its origins in confusion over what to call a digging implement. I don’t think the phrase is quite that innocent. My understanding is that in fact “calling a spade a spade” harkens back to Civil War America, when a person’s freedom turned on whether or not the establishment considered one Black or not. Inter-racial liaisons were not uncommon, and so mulatto children were reasonably common. The White establishment was loathe to allow itself to be “diluted” with “impure blood,” and so they took to “calling a ‘spade’ [pejorative for a Black person] a ‘spade'”. Is there any truth in this? — Michael Raynor.

    In a word, no. Although the English language, and particularly American English, contains many examples of the influence of racism on popular speech, in this particular case there is ample evidence to prove the defendant phrase not guilty. “To call a spade a spade” not only predates slavery in North America by quite a bit but harks all the way back to the Ancient Greeks, occurring in the work of, among others, the playwright Aristophanes, and is still commonly heard in modern Greek. The original phrase seems to have been “to call a fig a fig; to call a kneading trough a kneading trough,” applied to someone who spoke exceedingly frankly. Evidently, when the phrase was first translated from Greek in the Renaissance, the Greek word for “trough” was confused with the Greek for “spade,” and thus the modern version was born. The “spade” referred to in the phrase, incidentally, was the digging implement, and not the black character on playing cards that underlies the racial epithet.

  206. Mocha says:

    I will never forget the comment on this board referring to “dark hughed” children. It bothered me more than I’d like to admit. I hope some day I will be able to “bump” into him at a board gtg.

  207. Fabius Maximus says:

    Grandma on Medicare can be summed up by “Keep your government hands off my Medicare”

    As espousd by one of the biggest GOP jokers, Laughing Curve Laffer

  208. Fabius Maximus says:

    #214 Mocha,
    By the fact that they posted it, will define them forever as an A$$hole, you get the choice if you want to bring yourself down there to meet them. But if you do go there, you can always plead the Merle Haggard defense:

    “He was an a$$hole so I hit him”

  209. Pat says:

    didn’t read the whole thread to find the hue stuff…but curious.

    Anyway, can anybody of Indian descent give me advice? I realize I am not the most liked person here and can live with that. GTH. I’m in a situation here and hope it’s not irretrievable like a key dropped down a drain in a North Friesian bathhouse.

    So here’s what happened.

    I got this gift from this 30-something couple originally from India – won’t say wehre but it’s someplace where it’s O.K. to each chicken and such.

    Anyways, I needed a sari for my daughter and had no clue how to get it. My saris were all too big. Yes, I had some. Move on. So I told my husband to spread the word. This was maybe in May/June.

    Home he comes with a bag of them. They’re like the gold thread stuff. Really beautiful and I am stymied/frozen with lack of ability to respond. I thought I would get costume equivalent.

    Now it is August and I still haven’t figured out what to buy/send to thank the couple.

    This is very difficult so help is appreciated but probably will not be rewarded.

  210. Fabius Maximus says:

    #217 Pat,

    Not an expert here, so I’ll defer to others. I would look at this as a borrow. They gave you a bag of saris so to start with, pick one and look to return the rest. Next part is a bit tricky, but as you are returning the rest you can start the conversation. “This one is beaututiful, and my daughter loves it, we were wondering how should she wear it, accessorize etc and most importantly how do we launder it for return.” They gave you a bag so they expect at least one to be used, that should give you the opening on how to return it if you even need to.
    Regardless if they want it back, i would reciprocate with a good sized fruit basket or equivalent, non denominational gift.

  211. Confused In NJ says:

    A policy that bars gay men from donating blood for life is “suboptimal,” advisers to the Health and Human Services Department said on Tuesday, and needs another look.

    HHS asked a committee of experts on blood and tissue donations to reexamine the policy and see if there is a way to let at least some gays donate blood.

    “If the data indicate that a change is possible while protecting the blood supply, we will consider a change to the policy,” HHS said in a statement.

    The U.S. Food and Drug Administration, an HHS agency, has banned blood donation by any man who has had homosexual sex because of the risk of the AIDS virus. Soon after the AIDS pandemic began in the 1980s, people such as hemophiliacs who received frequent blood transfusions or blood products began to become infected with the deadly and incurable virus.

    Men who have sex with other men, including gay and bisexual men, have an HIV infection rate 60 times higher than that of the general population, the FDA says. They have an infection rate 800 times higher than first-time blood donors and 8,000 times higher than the rate of repeat blood donors. Tests cannot pick up a new HIV infection in the blood with 100 percent accuracy; because blood is often pooled, many people may be at risk from a single infected donor.

    But the Red Cross, always struggling with blood shortages, and other groups such as gay-rights organizations oppose the blanket policy. They say that there are other ways to screen out donors at high risk of HIV infection. Sen. John Kerry, D–Mass., has also been pushing for a change in policy.

    “We’ve been working on this a long time in a serious way, and I’m glad Secretary [Kathleen] Sebelius responded with concrete steps to finally remove this policy from the books,” Kerry said in a statement. “HHS is doing their due diligence, and we plan to stay focused on the endgame – a safe blood supply and an end to this discriminatory ban.”

    “This announcement by HHS means we’re moving in the direction of finally ending this antiquated and discriminatory policy,” agreed Rep. Mike Quigley, D-Ill. “Senator Kerry and I will continue to push for a behavior-based screening process both in the name of fairness and a safer blood supply.”

    Some of the questions the Blood, Organ, and Tissue Safety Working Group will ask: What motivates a man who has had sex with other men to donate blood? Can men understand what puts them at high risk of HIV infection? Will donors answer honestly?

    “It is anticipated that the described studies will yield data for reevaluation of the current deferral policy and potentially establish safety of blood collection from a subset of men who have sex with men or other currently deferred donors (e.g. men with a history of abstinence from MSM behavior for a defined time period),” HHS said

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