Can’t wait to hear about how NJ spends the settlement

From Bloomberg:

Foreclosure Deal May Help States Prop Up Budgets, Raze Houses

Wisconsin plans to use part of its $140 million share of the national foreclosure settlement to fill a budget hole. Missouri would devote $40 million for education. Ohio wants to tear down vacant homes.

Ninety percent of the $25 million settlement announced Feb. 9 goes to borrowers, with states receiving at least $2.66 billion, said Geoff Greenwood, a spokesman for Iowa Attorney General Tom Miller, who helped negotiate the deal. The money for states is to “help fund consumer protection and state foreclosure-protection efforts,” according to the National Mortgage Settlement website, though states have discretion in spending, and their tax bases and budgets were hurt by the housing crash, Greenwood said in an e-mail.

Most states, especially those hit hard by foreclosures, likely will spend the money on related purposes instead of priorities that the public may not see as fitting the spirit of the settlement, said David Adkins, executive director of the Council of State Governments in Lexington, Kentucky.

“If my home were in foreclosure, I would want to make certain that the revenue in my state was directed at ameliorating that specific problem,”Adkins said.

At least 100,000 homes need to be demolished, DeWine said, and he is establishing a program to match funds that cities and land banks allocate for tearing down houses.

Using the settlement money for that purpose is appropriate because many homeowners are paying their mortgages and did nothing wrong, yet they face plummeting property values because of foreclosures around them, said Jim Rokakis, a former Cuyahoga County treasurer who directs Cleveland’s nonprofit Thriving Communities Institute.

“If you don’t take these homes down, these neighborhoods will continue to lose what little value they have left, they will be less safe and there will be zero chance of those neighborhoods coming back,” Rokakis said in a Feb. 9 telephone interview. “You can’t build the new American city until you take the old one down first.”

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137 Responses to Can’t wait to hear about how NJ spends the settlement

  1. grim says:

    From yesterday:

    83 year old clay tiled roof. Should I be concerned?

    Useful life is at least 100 years, but in many cases much longer. What is the current condition? Any damage? Realize that any repairs will cost a small fortune, generally on par with slate from a labor cost perspective, and cross your fingers that they can get tile that matches closely (mismatch tile is pretty ugly). Inspection is usually very difficult, since just walking on older tile can damage it. If you are going to fall in love with the house because of the look of the roof, make sure you budget in for the cost of a new clay roof, which is going to be astronomical when compared to asphalt shingle (Numbers around $30-60k aren’t out of line for a good job on the kind of size house that would typically have had these in the 20s-30s).

  2. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  3. grim says:

    From the Record:

    New home, no worries. No way!

    After living in a small New York apartment, Michelle and Alon Frumer were thrilled to find a new-construction house in Englewood in 2008, with plenty of room to raise their two young children.

    But just days after moving into the $997,000 home, the couple discovered water pouring into the basement from an opening in the foundation. Other problems soon turned up, including a cracked chimney, missing fire protection and extensive water leaks, which fed the growth of mold.

    “It reminded me of that movie ‘The Money Pit,’ ” said Michelle, a real estate investment manager. “I feel like we’re living a real-life ‘Money Pit’ with this house.”

    What buyers should know
    •New-home builders are required by state law to buy warranties that are supposed to offer buyers protection from defects in materials and workmanship for one year, defects in the heating, air conditioning, plumbing and electrical systems for two years, and major structural defects for 10 years.
    •The warranties are offered by the state and by five insurance companies. The state Department of Community Affairs, which oversees home warranty companies, warns home buyers to file any complaints before the deadlines to preserve their rights. Angie’s List, an online reviewer, says that home warranties get the worst grades of any of the services it reviews.
    Their years-long struggle to get relief raises questions about the effectiveness of municipal building inspections and home warranties. The Frumers say the city’s building inspector should have found the home’s problems during its construction, and the warranty company should now do more to remedy them.

    The Frumers, who moved out of the house in 2009 and are now living in Teaneck, have sued the architect, the builder, the city of Englewood, the home warranty company and the contractor that the warranty company sent to fix the problems.

    According to the suit, the four-bedroom, 4,883-square-foot Valley Place house was built by Leonard and Evelyn Krimsky of Englewood in partnership with Jack Nelson of Englewood. It featured high ceilings, a library and fireplaces in both the living room and master bedroom. It was completed in 2007, and the Frumers bought it in April 2008. They didn’t have an inspection because the home had been inspected by the city’s building code officials, and it came with the warranty.

  4. The fraudclosure settlement money will be squandered in any number of ways. No one will be helped, and the problem will become even more severe in all 50 states.

    No one will be spared. No one.

  5. Handing state gubmints large amounts of money is like locking a junkie in an evidence locker full of smack.

  6. Thundaar says:

    From a few months ago-I never knew the post office had to pay benefits 75 years in advance to help balance the budget…

  7. Shore Guy says:

    “The fraudclosure settlement money will be squandered in any number of ways”

    What happened to the tobacco-settlement money?

  8. Shore Guy says:

    “Numbers around $30-60k aren’t out of line for a good job ”

    But, on the bright side, the new roof will drive up your taxable value, so you get those bragging rights with the neighbors.

  9. The Today show has Greek riots higher on the list than CNBC. Yet to see any of the rioting on CNBC.

    It is the end of days.

  10. Proud to be an American where at least I know I'm free HEHEHE says:


    Barron’s cover story this week is Dow 15000. If there ever was a message to sell any holdings I think that would be it.

  11. yo says:


    New Jersey does not have an estimate for how many homeowners will benefit directly from the settlement, but the Attorney General’s Office expects the number to be “substantial.” Of the amount it is netting, about $762 million will go directly to helping homeowners, Chiesa said.

    The majority of that money, $660 million, will go toward providing loan term modifications and other direct relief to borrowers. Another $89.5 million will be made available to help New Jersey borrowers refinance if they owe more on their mortgage than their home is worth. To qualify, loans must have interest rates greater than 5.25 percent and the refinanced rate must reduce monthly payments by at least $100, the office said.
    A sliver of the settlement, or about $12.5 million, will be paid directly to borrowers who lost their homes to foreclosure between Jan. 1, 2008, and Dec. 31, 2011, and certify that it was due to some sort of problematic circumstance. The state estimates individual payments from this fund could range between $1,800 and $2,000, which could go to between 6,250 and 6,944 affected homeowners. More than 32,000 foreclosures in New Jersey were completed between September 2008 and December 2011, according to CoreLogic.

    The remaining $75.5 million will go to the state to help it pay for various housing programs, Chiesa said.

  12. Painhrtz - I ain't dead yet says:

    Boy didn’t call that one : (

    the theft is so open and transparent right now it is too easy to predict. Hell 240 years ago Americans would have started a revolution over this.

  13. JJ says:

    But Money Pit house out on Long Island was actually bought at bottom of housing market. Owner actually made money. Movie would have been better however if Shelly Long had gotten a boob job first.

    Funny story was how they did the staircase scene. Remember, this is pre-special effects and that was an actual house they rented. They had permission in lease that they may modify house but would fix it before lease was up. Owner had no clue the extent of damage that would happen in house during filming. They actually distroyed the staircase in real life. Cool Stuff.

    “It reminded me of that movie ‘The Money Pit,’ ” said Michelle, a real estate investment manager. “I feel like we’re living a real-life ‘Money Pit’ with this house.”

  14. JJ says:

    But we will easily hit Dow 13K in 2012. Amazing if I told you three years ago we would be at almost Dow 13K in 36 months I would have been laughed at even more than usual.

    Proud to be an American where at least I know I’m free HEHEHE says:
    February 13, 2012 at 8:03 am

    Barron’s cover story this week is Dow 15000. If there ever was a message to sell any holdings I think that would be it.

  15. Confused in NJ says:

    The interesting thing about the Greek vote & riots is it clearly shows Nationalism is dead and all western governments are now run by Globalist cartels who will feed their own people into a wood chipper to further their own Global agendas.

  16. JJ says:

    Since Greek people are naturally lazy how long can the riots last anyhow?

  17. JJ says:

    So pundits are saying. Treasuries about to crash way overvalued, Muni will have a correction but not crash as slightly overvalued. Corporates are fully valued. Junk bonds are getting near the peak. Equities you already missed the big 23% run up since last fall but have room to grow. Cash is paying near zero and money markets are paying basically zero but that is an uninsured asset where you are taking default risk yet getting paid zero.

    Bottom line equities are place to put bulk of money, with some of the funds you need safe into maybe FDIC insured CDs from GMAC, CIT or Sallymae or Credit Union and some I bonds.

    The Risk on trade has caused a rush into every riskier type of bond asset and over inflated them. Less and Less places every day to earn income. Finally, after equities and junk bonds get that finally 5% run up and are overvalued will the Fed get what they want and get people to start investing in Real Estate again.

  18. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Welcome to the world of Rollerball

  19. Painhrtz - I ain't dead yet says:

    Nom good thing I know how to skate!

  20. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [7] shore,

    No one turns down free money. I am critical but also mindful that I have paid taxes. A lot of taxes. So I consider it a return on investment whenever I land in the safety net.

    The difference between me and many others is that I’m not trying to game the system.

  21. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [20] pain,

    We can skate and throw elbows doing it. We have a future in Corporate Earth.

  22. 3B says:

    mocha: The house that you reference in Oradell (tile roof) as you know is listed for 435k. It last sold in 2002 for 388k. Owners will have lived there for 10 years, and not made a dime. It also looks like they did some updates to the house too since they bought it. Taxes are decent though, and you can walk to the train.

  23. D says:

    So…. if one WERE looking to refinance, where do you all recommend? I know it’s been discussed, but I am just not finding it!

  24. A.West says:

    JJ (18),
    Correct. Only dumb money like central banks and their banker pawns would buy treasuries now. Or gamblers thinking they can front-run them. Not savers looking for a real ROI.

  25. The Original NJ Expat says:

    grim [1] clay roof maint costs – Thanks grim, I always wondered what the costs were. We have so many of them in Chestnut Hill, Newton, Brookline, Cambridge, etc. that it’s a real cottage industry up here. The houses around Chestnut Hill Reservoir have pretty much nothing but.

  26. Painhrtz - I ain't dead yet says:

    Nom good thing I already have hockey mouth and nose. my elbows are pretty sharp : )

    Hey need some advice with the twins almost here and wife complaining about my 20 bucks a week on Sam Adams. Need a cheap beer I can tolerate. ~ 15 bucks a 12 pack.

    Any suggestions or do I have to learn how to homebrew with the rest of you.

  27. grim says:

    Tile and slate generally have a good ROI if your family will own the house for 100 years or more. Problem is, just about every dime has been squeezed out of the ROI when these come up for sale these days. Unfortunately, I’m going to call those romantic old roofs detremental, not benefits.

    They sure do look nice though.

  28. All Hype says:

    Pain (27):

    Try Yuengling Lager. Good taste, reasonably priced.

  29. Brian says:

    Ah now somebody is speaking my language. Luckily, in Newton, they charge 13.99 for a twelve pack of Sam Adams. Very budget friendly.

    I keep coming back to Yeungling. I got pretty tired of the Yeungling lager but they have a few other types out now. The Chesterfield Ale seems the strongest but skunks pretty quickly (not a problem in my house). They have a porter wich is tolerable. Don’t bother with the Yuengling light. Just have a glass of water and you’ll catch a better buzz. Also tried the Bock on Saturday, not to shabby considering the price if you can find it.

    Best bang for the buck: Yuengling Black and tan.

    27.Painhrtz – I ain’t dead yet says:
    February 13, 2012 at 9:37 am
    Nom good thing I already have hockey mouth and nose. my elbows are pretty sharp : )

    Hey need some advice with the twins almost here and wife complaining about my 20 bucks a week on Sam Adams. Need a cheap beer I can tolerate. ~ 15 bucks a 12 pack.

    Any suggestions or do I have to learn how to homebrew with the rest of you.

  30. Painhrtz - I ain't dead yet says:

    Hype can’t do the lager it is OK but I need to take prilosec before I have two. Brian it has been a while since I had Yeungling’s B&T maybe I’ll have to go back. how was the Bock? Smoky and dark? nice head?

    Sounds like I’m describing a night out for JJ

  31. Anon E. Moose says:

    Hype [29];

    Is “reasonable price” the new ‘less filling’?

  32. Anon E. Moose says:

    Brian [30];

    Anything that calls itself “Black & Tan” can comes pre-mixed in the same container is a sacrilege. Turns me off the whole Yeungling brand.

  33. Anon E. Moose says:

    Shore [7];

    Let me sum that up for the NYT:

    All those Tea Partiers are just hypocrtie welfare queens, so shut up and let us run your lives for you.

    How about we get the government boot off our necks before judging the capabilities of the private sector?

  34. JJ says:

    Black and Tan I think was Bobby and Whitney’s nickname when they were a couple.

  35. gary says:

    When do austerity measures kick in here in the USSA?

  36. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    This won’t play well with the OWS crowd:

    Of the top 10 job cutters, the USG leads the list, but Gov Motors, Cry-sler, Citi, BofA, and Merrill are also on the list. So the gov promises jobs, but cuts from its own staff, and cuts from the staffs of companies it controls.

    Mind you, I don’t see this as a bad thing, but it is precisely what a GOP president would do, and that won’t endear Chairman O to the OWS crowd or the far left, many of whom feel betrayed.

    Anyone want to help fund another Nader or Kucinich 3rd party effort?

  37. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [33] moose,

    and you don’t want to order a Black and Tan if you’re in a bar in Belfast.

  38. young buck says:

    6 months removed from Tropical Storm Irene, a Cranford family elevates its home

    On Feb. 2 they gathered with neighbors to watch as their house, sitting atop a network of oak cribbing, was pumped slowly upward by a hydraulic jack system. It will sit 40 inches higher than it did, more than enough to withstand another Irene-caliber storm, Genova said.

    “I knew, even when I saw how bad the damage was that I didn’t want to move,” said Joan Genova, 51, “I’ve been here for 23 years so I’m not going anywhere.” Joan bought the house when it was a ranch in 1988. When she married Frank a few years later, he rebuilt it, adding a second story.

  39. Brian says:

    It’s not the greatest Bock I’ve ever had but when you consider it goes for around $6.75 a six pack, it’s actually quite good. The trouble is, it’s one of the harder Yuenling’s to find. Only one liquor store near me carries it.

    31.Painhrtz – I ain’t dead yet says:
    February 13, 2012 at 10:12 am
    Hype can’t do the lager it is OK but I need to take prilosec before I have two. Brian it has been a while since I had Yeungling’s B&T maybe I’ll have to go back. how was the Bock? Smoky and dark? nice head?

    Sounds like I’m describing a night out for JJ

  40. Painhrtz - I ain't dead yet says:

    Moose I always drank it for the taste and not the look. Real B&t will always be Harp and Guiness for me

  41. Anon E. Moose says:

    Redux [7];

    Stunning admission:

    >In recent years he has earned so little that he did not pay federal income taxes, although he still paid thousands of dollars toward Medicare and Social Security. The earned-income tax credit is intended to offset those payroll taxes, to encourage people with lower-paying jobs to remain in the work force.<

    In other words, we have to bribe people [EITC] to work rather than live on welfare payments. Have they considered that the safety net may be a little too comfortable of a hammock?

  42. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [27] pain

    If she drinks light beer, bring home the Sam light. I like it a lot; doesn’t look or taste like a light beer and has less of the unpleasant notes I find in the lager. Get her hooked on that and you have a nice compromise.

  43. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [27] pain

    Got the hockey mouth, but fortunately, the nose never got it. As I was what passed for a goon in youth hockey, I was usually the instigator anyway.

  44. Brian says:

    For those of you that purchased a home in 2006 and are also drowning in mortgage debt:

    Tune in next week, when I’ll post my picks for the “finest box of wine” available in the area.

  45. Shore Guy says:

    “$762 million will go directly to helping homeowners”

    Why do people who have paid off their mortgage need help?

  46. Painhrtz - I ain't dead yet says:

    Nom unfortunately I married the only German with a barley allergy. We tried some of the Gluten free stuff for her, didn’t work out. Plus she is doing the whole pregnancy not going back to wine thing. I figure once she is done breast feeding and the rugrats are running her ragged yoga is going to get dumped in favor of a nice pinot for the nerves.

    6 hockey broken noses, one from my dog and one from a dock. Helped that I was a mess to begin with.

  47. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [8] shore

    “What happened to the tobacco-settlement money?”

    What money? I don’t know what you are talking about? Nothing to see here, now move along.

  48. Anon E. Moose says:

    Con’t [42];

    Ms. Nelson, a 62 year-old [so-called] ‘centrist’ Democrat had this to say:

    >“Anyone who can come into a coffee shop and buy coffee is capable of paying more,” she said. “If someone’s life can be granted, in terms of adequate health care, if that means I give up five cups of coffee a month, that is a small price to pay.”<

    I wonder why they didn't explore the sources of Ms. Nelson's income, like they did to those who are opposed to her 'just a little bit more' theory of taxation. Maybe Ms. Nelson never worked a damn day in her life, so that 'cup of coffee' she's so ready to give up was itself a gift to her.

  49. Anon E. Moose says:

    Shore [46];

    “$762 million will go directly to helping homeowners”

    Why do people who have paid off their mortgage need help?

    Now you’re just talking crazy…

  50. Anon E. Moose says:

    Nom [38];

    I order the half-and-half.

  51. grim says:

    Why do people who have paid off their mortgage need help?

    How else, pray tell, are we supposed to buy their votes?

  52. Anon E. Moose says:

    Grim [52];

    I believed that Shore was poking fun at the expansive use of the term ‘homeowner’. Zero down, sellers-concession for closing costs, neg-am ‘mortgage’ payments — exactly what do they “own” that they have bought and paid for?

  53. grim says:

    53 – You, sir, are a terrorist.

  54. D says:

    Was it Penfed or Hudson City?

    I think I can refi down to a 10 year (13.5 years left on a 15- prepaying principal already) at these rates.

  55. JJ says:

    I was never injured in sports. Generally speaking people unconscious or wind knocked out of them don’t fight back. Luckily as a role player generally I would leave before end of game in these cases. Actually, the time I played 30 seconds went for a rebound and elbowed the other teams best player in his temple at full force and was thrown out of game for a flagrant foul I think was my best game ever. Why his temple was where my elbow was is a mystery to me, I was just doing one of those Charles Barkely grab the ball and throw some elbows to make room before I go back up for my lay-up.

    But I do say I showered and changed in like 30 seconds before anyone from other team got a hold of me and left. Also in football I never know why QBs don’t cover up after throwing ball. These is always that 1/10 of a second the ball is gone I am going full force at QB and the guy covering me and QB seem to forget I got 1/10 of a second to nail you and not get called on a late hit. One time I was charging head on as hard as I could at the big guy protecting QB, big like 6 foot three inch two hundred fifty pounds, he step aside at last second I was about to hit him as he saw ball was thrown but me amped up instead of him nailed the five foot eleven QB at full throttle with a elbow to the neck to boot, rang his bell and landed on top of him. I think I knocked like 40 points off his IQ. But man what a joy when his feet left the ground and me and him was flying through the air. Even funnier since ball just left hand everyone was looking downfield. Including Ref. I never understood the point of starting a fight, I hit you in face, you hit me in face etc. One time a guy way bigger than me chalenged me to fight, go everyone gather round took first swing hit me in face but not a full shot, I kicked him in the balls jumped on his choked him till he said uncle. He then goes why did you do that, I said well you were planning on beating the crap out of me and you are bigger, stronger and a better fighter. We became friends. I stopped the cycle. Although I think in Hockey they no longer let people like me pull players shirt up for cheap shots.

  56. Shore Guy says:

    Now for a word from our youth:

    Would that all 60 year-olds looked like this. It would make the whole aging thing more palatable.

  57. Painhrtz - I ain't dead yet says:

    Shore I saw that apparently it was all from clean living. Agree on it could make aging palatable. Unfortunately most old folks look like the crowd jamming in for the early bird special at a Del Ray Beach Dennys

  58. JJ says:

    Realogy is the ultimate ponzi scheme in a way. I bought like two years ago a little 7K reaology bond with a 12.75% coupon. Figured it would eventually go bk, but it keeps kicking can down road. The folks who bought in on the 12.75% coupon originally back in 2006 I guess say keep kicking the can. Sure one day they will get a BK but pretty much at 12.75% in 7.8 years you have 100% of you money back, every coupon after that is gravy and in BK you can get 20-40 cents on a dollar recovery. But what happens to new suckers people buying bonds now of Realogy. They wont have 10 years of interest payments at time of BK. I guess in all ponzi schemes FIFO is key.

    Realogy, a real estate company controlled by Apollo, refinanced debt that was due next year until 2020 with a recent bond issue.

    “We know we are very leveraged and we are painfully aware of what happened in the [US] housing market,” Tony Hull, Realogy’s chief financial officer, told the Financial Times.

    The bond sale “was one of many steps that allows us to improve our balance sheet and positions us well for a turnround in housing and being able to tap the equity markets when the time is right”.

  59. JJ says:

    Singer Whitney Houston died from ingesting a lethal cocktail of prescription drugs and alcohol rather than drowning, the entertainment news website TMZ reported Monday, citing family sources. The Los Angeles County Coroner told the late pop star’s relatives that there was not enough water in her lungs to kill her, TMZ noted, and she was likely dead before she went under in the bathtub in her room at the Beverly Hilton over the weekend. Houston was 48 years old.

  60. A.West says:

    Shore, Anon, Re 7,

    I’ve seen this leftist argument before. Now that the government has taken control over about 1/3rd of the economy, anyone who critiques that encroachment is a “hypocrite” because surprise surprise, the government has entangled itself in their personal economic activities/finances.

    Here’s what Ayn Rand wrote on a similar subject, back in the 70s:
    Many students of Objectivism are troubled by a certain kind of moral dilemma confronting them in today’s society. We are frequently asked the questions: “Is it morally proper to accept scholarships, private or public?” and: “Is it morally proper for an advocate of capitalism to accept a government research grant or a government job?”

    I shall hasten to answer: “Yes”—then proceed to explain and qualify it. There are many confusions on these issues, created by the influence and implications of the altruist morality.

    There is nothing wrong in accepting private scholarships. The fact that a man has no claim on others (i.e., that it is not their moral duty to help him and that he cannot demand their help as his right) does not preclude or prohibit good will among men and does not make it immoral to offer or to accept voluntary, non-sacrificial assistance.

    A different principle and different considerations are involved in the case of public (i.e., governmental) scholarships. The right to accept them rests on the right of the victims to the property (or some part of it) which was taken from them by force.

    The recipient of a public scholarship is morally justified only so long as he regards it as restitution and opposes all forms of welfare statism. Those who advocate public scholarships, have no right to them; those who oppose them, have. If this sounds like a paradox, the fault lies in the moral contradictions of welfare statism, not in its victims.

    Since there is no such thing as the right of some men to vote away the rights of others, and no such thing as the right of the government to seize the property of some men for the unearned benefit of others—the advocates and supporters of the welfare state are morally guilty of robbing their opponents, and the fact that the robbery is legalized makes it morally worse, not better. The victims do not have to add self-inflicted martyrdom to the injury done to them by others; they do not have to let the looters profit doubly, by letting them distribute the money exclusively to the parasites who clamored for it. Whenever the welfare-state laws offer them some small restitution, the victims should take it . . . .

    The same moral principles and considerations apply to the issue of accepting social security, unemployment insurance or other payments of that kind. It is obvious, in such cases, that a man receives his own money which was taken from him by force, directly and specifically, without his consent, against his own choice. Those who advocated such laws are morally guilty, since they assumed the “right” to force employers and unwilling co-workers. But the victims, who opposed such laws, have a clear right to any refund of their own money—and they would not advance the cause of freedom if they left their money, unclaimed, for the benefit of the welfare-state administration.

    The same moral principles and considerations apply to the issue of government research grants.

    The growth of the welfare state is approaching the stage where virtually the only money available for scientific research will be government money. (The disastrous effects of this situation and the disgraceful state of government-sponsored science are apparent already, but that is a different subject. We are concerned here only with the moral dilemma of scientists.) Taxation is destroying private resources, while government money is flooding and taking over the field of research.

    In these conditions, a scientist is morally justified in accepting government grants—so long as he opposes all forms of welfare statism. As in the case of scholarship-recipients, a scientist does not have to add self-martyrdom to the injustices he suffers.

  61. Wonder what happens to Realogy when Icahn starts feeling all pissy about them again.

  62. JJ says:

    I have no clue. Amazing that they keep making bond payments at almost 13% coupons in a money losing industry for years on end without a BK. At height of financial Crisis could have both 100K Reology Bonds in December 2008 for 30K. Would of had almost 48K in intrest payments by now and could casually keep collecting several more years till BK and laugh about it. Must be owners, PE shops and Ichan own majority of bonds.

    There Went Meat says:
    February 13, 2012 at 11:51 am
    Wonder what happens to Realogy when Icahn starts feeling all pissy about them again.

  63. Brian says:

    We’re talking about cheap beer Moose. Not fine wine. I would expect you to stick your nose up at it.

    While most of the people on the board here live in “blue ribbony” towns, I live in a “blue collary” town. Yuengling is a working man’s beer.

    33.Anon E. Moose says:
    February 13, 2012 at 10:17 am
    Brian [30];

    Anything that calls itself “Black & Tan” can comes pre-mixed in the same container is a sacrilege. Turns me off the whole Yeungling brand.

  64. Shore Guy says:

    This from a CNN e-mail:

    “Obama unveils $3.8 trillion 2013 budget calling for tax hikes on rich, more spending on infrastructure and teachers. ”

    Since BO has no chance of getting higher taxes through the House and since members of both parties can usually be persuaded to spend money on pork, umm, infrastructure, I guess what this means is thst BO is just calling on more debt. I guess we are all Giles Corey.

  65. Shore Guy says:

    Who woulda thunk it?

    President Obama on Monday unveiled a $3.8 trillion spending plan that seeks to pump billions of dollars into the economy while raising taxes on the rich to tame a soaring national debt now projected to grow significantly faster than previously forecast.

    The president’s outlook for debt reduction has deteriorated markedly since September, when Obama told Congress that his proposals would hold annual deficits well under $600 billion after next year and permit the debt held by outside investors to rise to $17.7 trillion by 2021, or 73 percent of the overall economy.


  66. Shore Guy says:

    “the debt held by outside investors ”

    I guess this is just a way of making people forget about the total outstanding debt, which, I suspect, is projected to rise above 100% of GDP by 2021.

  67. Anon E. Moose says:

    Brian [63];

    Guinness draught is under $30 a case – and in case anyone cares, only 2 points a pint. Nuff for me.

  68. gary says:

    It’s a straightforward question: what has he done to deserve four more years?

  69. Shore Guy says:

    “what has he done to deserve four more years?

    He won the Nobel Peace Prize, duh. Who else in the race has done that?

  70. Shore Guy says:

    He also got control of government spending; now he knows how to do it better than anyone else.

  71. gary says:

    Shore [71],

    You’re right, what am I thinking? Aside from Iran, Irag, Afghanistan, Syria, Greece, Egypt, Libia, Bahrain, Yemen, Algeria and Tunisia, all is well.

  72. gary says:

    Shore [72],

    Approximately 33% of the econonmy has now been seized and he’s still not done.

  73. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    Gasparino calling the post mortem BS on Meredith Whitney. Looks like JJ was right. As usual, right JJ?

  74. JJ says:

    Whitneys biggest mistake was painting the muni market with the same brush. NYS GO Triple A bonds are rated higher than treasuries, but she threw it together with tobbaco settlement bonds, nursing home bonds, sports stadium bonds, dirt bonds, airport bonds etc.

    Thing about NYS they collect Federal money they collect money in income tax they collect money for cities and towns. NYS at the GO level has a very small amount of bonds outstanding. All money they collect must first go to pay state GO bonds then the leftover goes to cities and towns etc. NYS collects a huge amount more than it needs, it is practically impossible to go bankrupt. Yet Whitney threw it in same basket as Vegas monorail bonds. Plus no State GO bonds has ever gone bankrupt. Has the same implicit back stop fannie and freddie has. So the state and US govt would have to go BK same time, plus lots of bonds have bond insurance or a Letter of Credit so insurer or bank holding LC would also have to go BK/

    A non insured muni junk bond back by a vegas monorail (FREE to RIDE, Duh) whould not be confused with Turnpike Bonds backed by tolls and collateralized by bridges and tunnels. Yet Whitney did it.

    Comrade Nom Deplume says:
    February 13, 2012 at 1:32 pm
    Gasparino calling the post mortem BS on Meredith Whitney. Looks like JJ was right. As usual, right JJ?

  75. Dissident HEHEHE says:

    JJ is always right; except that the Jets s*ck; and will always s*ck.

  76. Anyone who thinks the fate that befell Harrisburg or Birmingham won’t spread everywhere is whistling past the graveyard.

    No one will be spared. No one.

  77. Following from the premise that all bond-issuing gubmints and their agencies are corrupt criminal rackets run by rhesus monkeys, all muni debt is failing/will fail.

  78. Sooner or later, they won’t be able to tax their way out of it (see: Greece).

  79. Juice says:

    Muni market kicked the can is all it did, The Bond Buyer reported over a cancellation of 125 Billion in New Money bonds for projects that were shelved, while allot of activity is refinancing at the lower rates. How many thousands of infrastructure projects were shelved or Federal Funds used in-place of local funding for these projects?

  80. Mike says:

    Gary 68 Here’s Samuel Jackson’s answer why he deserves four more years!

  81. Close to 80% of the 250 trillion dollar derivatives market is a one-way bet on US interest rates.

    Guess which way that bet goes?

    Interest rates will not rise until the vigilantes are done with Urrp and Japan. However, rise they will.

    Yield must be paid, mf’er.

  82. mike (83)-

    A real credit to his race there.

    And people get on my case for calling the prez Bojangles.

  83. JJ says:

    The lack of muni bond issuance for new projects is bad for banks making deal money. The fact muni bond market is shrinking is good for default.
    Here is an interesting twist Folks love 5% coupons. But you have to issue above par to get 5%. So a muni with a 100 million bond with a 5% coupon will refinance at 110 cents on a dollar so they actually only have to issue around 90 million in bonds. They extinguished ten million in debt with no money out of pocket and decreased financing costs. This stuff is gold to lower default risk. Bad for muni bond primary dealers

    Juice says:
    February 13, 2012 at 2:16 pm
    Muni market kicked the can is all it did, The Bond Buyer reported over a cancellation of 125 Billion in New Money bonds for projects that were shelved, while allot of activity is refinancing at the lower rates. How many thousands of infrastructure projects were shelved or Federal Funds used in-place of local funding for these projects?

  84. JJ says:

    I am looking forward to Obama creating Whitney Houston Day next Feb. 11th. Two four day weeks in Feb will be nice.

  85. Juice says:

    re: # 86 – JJ you missed my point entirely. Infrastructure is the mainstay of muni issuance. Shelving the projects to replace and maintain is like playing Russian roulette with 4 rounds in a six shooter.

  86. Juice says:

    I can see why Timmay wants out in November…

    It’s 1934 all over again.

    The Federal Housing Administration could exhaust its reserves over the coming year, according to budget projections released Monday, which would require a Treasury infusion for the first time in its 78-year history.

    The FHA is an attractive option for borrowers because they can make down payments as low as 3.5%. …

  87. 3B says:

    #89 Juice: So why these constant articels on how tight credit is? Or are we to assume that there are those who wnat to go back to no money down?

  88. Juice says:

    RE: # 90 – Bernake made his pitch last week that credit was too tight. Of course it is really the toxic MBS that has him losing sleep at night not the actual housing market. Continued declines in housing and MBS prove his theories on recovery are all wrong. Who wants to go down in History as being wrong?

  89. Painhrtz - I ain't dead yet says:

    87 JJ well it is black history month and the crack addicted diva is history. Make it so Chairman O

  90. Painhrtz - I ain't dead yet says:

    Time to finally call it a day and offer my services as a fan to the baseball team that is the highest bidder.

    On the table merchandising purchases by myself and my family. Red Sox nation or Philly Phanatics need not apply

    At least two ball park trips a year by no less than 4 family members. Concession purchases included.

    As well as unabashed defense in fan based forums of management.

    Oh f*ck it I’m done with baseball until the Wilpon’s are dead, in jail or both

  91. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    MF Global trustee raises estimate of unaccounted for money.

    I’m shocked.

  92. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [93] pain,

    Wouldn’t matter. Wannabe Red Sox Nation members from NJ must pass a background check and go thru 2 year probationary period.

  93. Please do not bore us with MF Global stories.

    We want to know about Whitney’s blow-induced snorkel expedition in her bathtub.

  94. Painhrtz - I ain't dead yet says:

    Nom your one of the few New Englanders I like.

  95. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [47] pain

    There’s a reason we call wine “mother’s little helper” at Maison Deplume.

  96. JJ says:

    I think Bon Jovi killed Whitney Houston. Superbowl is in New Jersey in 2014. NFL likes to use super star singers a little past their prime who if possible are from the location of that years superbowl.

    So we have Whitney Houston, Bruce Springsteen and Bon Jovi as the three NJ Natives going for job. With Whitney dead all Bon Jovi needs is to knock off Springsteen in next year and the job is his.

  97. JJ says:

    So I broke down and booked a trip to Atlantis. I feel so yuppiefied. Food is overpriced there but for one night I would like to go to a really good restaurant for dinner. Rest of time will be burgers and pizza given the prices. Any suggestions?

    I am already dreading trip. Unlike Beaches where everything is included this will be like Disney with more hands in my pocket then a strip club in vegas

  98. None of the restaurants in Atlantis are good. Property is also in BK.

  99. JJ says:

    The real money pitt is on 199 Feeks Lane, Locust Valley, New York and Tom Hanks paid 200K for it in 1986.

    Zillow estimates house is worth $3,400,000 million. Last sold June 13 2002 for $2,125,000. It is a 8435 square foot, 6.5 bathroom on six acres,

    Some Money Pit!!

  100. JJ says:

    Tom Hanks from Money Pit: “In spite of all the problems, and in spite of the prospect of indentured servitude for the rest of my life and debt beyone my wildest dreams, I love the house.”

  101. Juice says:

    JJ -Are you planning on opening the top four buttons on your shirt and spending the whole trip in Club Aura, because you are too tight to gamble, and the table odds are probably horrible there. I was there the year it opened,wasn’t impressed then and I am pretty sure it isn’t much better now. Good luck with the food and fun there.

  102. 1987 Condo Buyer says:

    #91, Bernake’s over riding concern is avoiding a replay of the great depression, where tight credit excerbated (sp?) the situation….where an actual shortage of physical dollars required towns and cities to create their own script..deflation causes a downward spiral where as inflation can be fought with high interest rates and may actually benefit those with debt or assets that can peg gains to the rising rates. Bernake needs to “create” enough dollars to fill the huge and deep “holes” of losses that all these write downs will eventually result in….

  103. JJ says:

    Why would I have top buttons? Don’t need them.

    I do have a serious questions. Atlantis claims four per room unless youngest is four or under. I have a five year old with me as the fifth person. They want me to book two rooms and split up. But can’t guarantee adjourning rooms. Are they ball busters there? Can I just book one room and pretend the five year old is four years old? I mean are they checking passports and stuff. First twice as expensive. Second being in two rooms and separate from wife maybe on different floor with some of kids is weird. You would think a family resort would have rooms at least up to six people. A family resort that only if for people with two kids or under is an odd family resort.

    Juice says:
    February 13, 2012 at 5:14 pm
    JJ -Are you planning on opening the top four buttons on your shirt and spending the whole trip in Club Aura, because you are too tight to gamble, and the table odds are probably horrible there. I was there the year it opened,wasn’t impressed then and I am pretty sure it isn’t much better now. Good luck with the food and fun there.

  104. Shore Guy says:


    The best family vacation is a cruise. it ends up being much less expensive for any particular class of service. The food is superior to most land resorts, the entertainment can be quite good. There are lots of activities for kids and mom and dad can always find alone time.

  105. Shore Guy says:

    Maybe this should be the theme song for the budget, or maybe the next beige book:

  106. Shore Guy says:

    “actual shortage of physical dollars ”

    How many trees does it take for each $1 trillion in physical bills printed?

  107. Shore Guy says:

    I guess that BO won’t consider the debt problamatic until it approaches avogadro’s number.

  108. JJ says:

    My wife just watched all the 20/20 specials about Cruises. I have to wait till shock wears off. I went on one drunk and we threw like 20 deck chairs over board at four am. Remembering thinking at time I could have slipped over or threw someone in and no one would know.

    Shore Guy says:
    February 13, 2012 at 5:38 pm

    The best family vacation is a cruise. it ends up being much less expensive for any particular class of service. The food is superior to most land resorts, the entertainment can be quite good. There are lots of activities for kids and mom and dad can always find alone time.

  109. cobbler says:

    shore [110]
    FWIW, no trees are used in printing dollars. It is cotton-based paper; I don’t know if there is a mandate to use only U.S. produced cotton.

  110. A deck chair here, a person there…

  111. Juice Box says:

    re: #112 – JJ – what’s the difference between a ship’s balcony and a hotel balcony? Cruises have to be on sale now too, especially if you are cruising around Italy.

  112. GLASGOW, Scotland — Scottish champion Glasgow Rangers filed legal papers Monday indicating its intention to go into administration, placing the future of the financially stricken Scottish club in jeopardy.

    The team, which has won the Scottish title and record 54 times, served the notice at an Edinburgh court in a pre-emptive bid to avoid liquidation following a dispute with Britain’s tax authorities. Administration is the British form of bankruptcy.

    Rangers could be left with an estimated bill of $77 million if it loses a protracted tribunal case with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs.

    “Rangers chairman Craig Whyte said there is no ‘realistic or practical’ alternative to this course of action due to a combination of the club’s ongoing financial situation and the impending result of the HMRC first-tier tax tribunal,” the club said in a statement.

  113. Mocha says:

    Thanks guys for the input. I’m not hooked on the tile roof. I like the durability it offers but if it goes on my watch it will be shingles all the way.

  114. relo says:

    95: Nom, the ticket dispenser on that line reads 001.

    116: I know less than nothing about soccer, but I know there are a few dozen relatives with smiles on their faces at that news.

  115. Shore Guy says:

    “Wannabe Red Sox Nation members from NJ ”


    Are said people like the Yetti, Big Foot, and the Tooth Fairy — rumored to exist, but with no demonstrated examples?

  116. SX says:

    117. Don’t be intimidated by the clay roof. My folks in FL put on a new on and it’s not quite the end of the world and yes they last a long time. Clay roofs are more common down there and handle weather really well. Shingles would kind of diminish the lines of the home.

  117. SX says:

    European banks are preparing for a potential worsening of the region’s sovereign and banking crisis, with many firms stockpiling cash and cutting back on loans to new clients as they seek to protect themselves against a possible seizing-up of financial markets.

    Faced with 650 billion euros of debt coming due this year – almost 40 percent of which matures before the end of March – lenders are choosing to build up a cash cushion to ensure they can cover redemptions, creating a squeeze on the wider economy in the process.

    Such hoarding illustrates the nervousness of lenders even after the European Central Bank injected 489 billion euros of cash into the banking system in December. Cash deposits at the ECB have ballooned since then, reaching a record 528 billion euros this week – higher than after the Lehman Brothers collapse.

    “The big concern is that things might get worse,” said Bernd Hartwig, treasury manager at Nord/LB. “Political decisions are taking too long and most banks are building up liquidity just in case something happens. They are very worried that a new crisis could be a bigger than 2008.”

    System-wide hoarding is the reverse of what happened the last time central banks injected hundreds of billions of long-term money into the system. Then, banks moved quickly to put the money to work and generate returns, sparking bond and equity market rallies – and economic growth.

    The US Federal Reserve almost trebled the size of its balance sheet to more than $2 trillion in the months after the collapse of Lehman Brothers, pumping cash into the banking system through programs such as the Term Auction Facility. The ECB grew its balance sheet by about a quarter in that time.

  118. Fabius Maximus says:

    #68 gary

    What did he do to deserve 4 more years? He won the political lottery and the Jackpot is, this incarnation of the GOP and the Powerball mutiplier is this GOP primary field.

  119. Fabius Maximus says:

    There is a house on Godwin Ave in Wyckoff that just put on a copper roof. The house is 800K in a good market. At some point the roof will be worth more than the house.

  120. Fabius Maximus says:

    #116 Clot

    Just goes to prove that there is a God and he too, hates the Huns!

  121. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [119] shore

    Oh, there are examples but they know enough not to provoke the rest of the natives.

    I was actually pretty surprised to find any. Seems like a NY-hate kind of thing too.

  122. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [113] cobbler,

    I think they can use whatever cotton they want.

    The paper is made in one mill, Crane’s, in Dalton, MA. Rather unassuming place, right on Route 9. I remember thinking that it couldn’t be right, that they really aren’t making the paper for US currency in this typical, old-school, NE paper mill. You can practically walk right up and in, but from what I understand, the section making the paper is actually very secure.

  123. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [119] shore,

    In fact, I took my daughter ice-skating on Saturday, and one of the guys working at the union county ice rink had a Sox cap on. I asked him if he was a fan and got a fist bump. I didn’t ask but a Union County employee who looks like he belongs in that neighborhood (Roselle/Elizabeth) probably is home grown jersey.

  124. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    I had an epiphany of sorts while researching the Buffett Rule. Rather than blocking it before it gets to the floor, I think the GOP should permit debate.

    If enacted in Obamunist form, it would impose a much higher rate of taxation on the wealthy than they now pay. Not just bee-sting money but real take-an-arm-and-a-leg money. At some point, smart folks will start making projections and, IMHO, the Obama version of the Buffett Rule (which isn’t Buffett’s) would hurt domestic investment. By contrast, it would make FDI more attractive. So we would not see capital flight, but we would wake up one day and find that a sizeable chunk of our economy is owned by foreigners. Wealth earned here doesn’t stay here.

    And what of the wealthy? Faced with literal 100% tax increase, some will assuredly leave. And they don’t have to disinvest, but going forward, the tax rules change. Suppose a wealthy individual controls USCo, and now his income stream will be taxed at 30% instead of 15. Then there is inheritance taxes and the fact that rule of law doesn’t mean what it used to. Maybe it makes more sense to sell USCo to UKCo, take shares in UKCo in a tax-free exchange, hand over the passport and pay 15% on the gains, and sip fruity drinks from the patio of his place in St. Barts instead of St. Louis. Even if he lived in a country without a tax treaty, the worst he would do would be to dump state and payroll taxes and the estate tax. If he lives in the right country and organizes the right way, he probably reduces his income taxes from 30% to 12% or lower and dumps the other taxes as well.

    But it’s okay. Fabius and the Center for Tax Justice say it won’t happen.

    Still, I wonder, if the sheep won’t leave the pasture, why is there a fence?

  125. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [118] relo

    I doubt the dispenser is that low, but it is low and for good reason. Red Sox Nation has to be careful taking fans from an area that it produces Yankees and Mets fans by the millions.

    Maybe genetic screening should be added.

  126. Jill says:

    Nom #37: That may be. But the Repug war on contraceptives will bring them back into the fold real quick.

    (I still can’t believe that in 2012 this is even an issue!)

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