Will 2013 be the year of the deal?

From the WSJ:

Will 2013 Be the Time for Home Buyers to Jump?

This New Year’s, you may want to make a resolution to go house hunting.

Home prices are finally starting to recover, but they’re still low enough to get a great deal. Add to that interest rates that are at historic lows, and 2013 may be the time for first-time home buyers to finally get in the game.

“We think the answer, definitively, is that home prices have bottomed,” says Stan Humphries, chief economist of real-estate firm Zillow. “Right now, buying looks very attractive, even for short-term time horizons.”

While the timing may be right, the tougher standards lenders imposed after the housing crash are still very much in place. So buyers with good credit and a hefty down payment may benefit the most.

A bevy of data suggest housing prices have finally begun to climb back. So there’s a window of opportunity before prices start a faster upward march.

For first-time home buyers, it may be easier to buy. Many first-time buyers are opting for loans backed by the Federal Housing Administration, since they now have looser credit and down-payment criteria compared with the tougher criteria for standard loans. The typical rate on a 30-year fixed-rate mortgage backed by the FHA was 3.31% last week, according to HSH.com.

Many potential buyers have sat out of the market and rented instead—because they were waiting for prices to bottom out, found it to be a cheaper option or couldn’t qualify for a mortgage. But the jump in renters after the housing collapse led to higher rents throughout much of the country. In many cases, it no longer makes financial sense to rent instead of buy.

In about three out of four U.S. housing markets, it now takes less than three years of owning a home with a standard 30-year mortgage for buying to be cheaper than renting a similar space, says Zillow’s Mr. Humphries.

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175 Responses to Will 2013 be the year of the deal?

  1. Essex says:

    Phirst.

  2. grim says:

    From HousingWire:

    FHFA cites eight months of home price increase

    Federal Housing Finance Agency house prices rose 1.1% on a seasonally adjusted basis from August to September, this is the eighth consecutive month prices have increased. The home price also rose 4% from the previous year.

    The monthly house price index uses the purchase prices of houses with mortgage owned or guaranteed by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac.

    The prominent growth from 0.7% last quarter to 1.1% this quarter is due to the amount of inventory of homes for sale. Over the last four quarters, the index is up 3.3%.

    “With significant growth in home prices during the quarter and a modest inventory of homes available for sale, house price movements in the third quarter were similar to what we observed in the spring,” said principal economist Andrew Leventis of FHFA.

    He added, “The past year has seen consistent price increases, but a number of factors continue to affect the recovery in home prices such as stagnant income growth, high unemployment levels, lingering uncertainty about the macroeconomy, and the large number of homes in the foreclosure pipeline.”

  3. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  4. Ernest Money says:

    What can you say about a market driven by bulk sales (Wall St.), where first-time buyers are virtual non-participants?

    I say it all ends in tears. There were probably glimmers of hope in 1933, too.

  5. Ernest Money says:

    What happens when the bulk sales market dries up, due to REO inventory logjams and rising prices killing the income potential for investors?

    The only market-clearing move for prices is lower.

  6. Ernest Money says:

    Somebody wake me up when they bail out/recapitalize FHA.

  7. can i AX a question? says:

    did bush take his ideas from stephen?

    “Bloomberg
    Jeb Bush’s Call for ‘Restoration’
    By Mark Silva

    November 27, 2012
    Jeb Bush, the former Florida today called for a “restoration” of lost American values and economic mobility…”

    “America Again: Re-becoming the Greatness We Never Weren’t.
    Stephen Colbert
    Amazon Best Books of the Month, October 2012: our country is “Americeptional” in a wide range of subjects: like healthcare, Wall Street,
    Product Description
    Book store nation, in the history of mankind there has never been a greater country than America. You could say we’re the #1 nation at being the best at greatness.

    But as perfect as America is in every single way, America is broken! Look around–we don’t make anything anymore, we’ve mortgaged our future to China, and the Apologist-in-Chief goes on world tours just to bow before foreign leaders. Worse, the L.A. Four Seasons Hotel doesn’t even have a dedicated phone button for the Spa. You have to dial an extension! Where did we lose our way?!
    It’s high time we restored America to the greatness it never lost!”

  8. Essex says:

    7. The GOP’s attempt to bring back the good ol days didn’t resonate with anyone under the age of 60 or IQ of 70.

  9. Ernest Money says:

    There will be no more good days. The final plunge into Third World hell is nigh.

  10. Ernest Money says:

    No more good days until the debt is acknowledged and written down.

  11. grim says:

    From Bloomberg:

    American Housing Casino Revives After Big Drop: Mortgages

    Renee and Dwaine McCuistion, who lost their Las Vegas home after defaulting in 2010, are feeling lucky again. They bought another property last month for $475,000, 42 percent less than what the previous owner paid.

    “It’s like we won the lottery,” said Renee, sitting on the patio of the four-bedroom house at Red Rock Country Club beside Dwaine, her police officer husband. “With everything so low, we felt it was imperative to start building equity again.”

    “In the last six months, people have gotten their money together and realized that prices overcorrected,” John Burns, a housing consultant, said in a telephone interview, referring to bargain-hunters seeking deep discounts amid confidence that a floor has been reached. “Las Vegas homes are a tremendous value.”

    The revival in the desert city that pioneered casino gambling, and fed dreams of homeownership with little money down and a speculative road to riches, follows the wreckage of the nation’s worst foreclosure crisis. Nevada led the U.S. housing boom with an estimated 275,000 new homes built from 2000 to 2007, the biggest increase of any state, according to the Census Bureau, before its spectacular demise.

    “When you bring an act into this town, you want to bring it in heavy,” Hunter S. Thompson wrote in his 1971 book, “Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas: A Savage Journey to the Heart of the American Dream.” “Don’t waste any time with cheap shucks and misdemeanors. Go straight for the jugular.”

  12. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    main article: “Home prices are finally starting to recover, but they’re still low enough to get a great deal. Add to that interest rates that are at historic lows, and 2013 may be the time for first-time home buyers to finally get in the game.”

    Consider the source. The author is a cute enough 24-year-old, but I doubt she’s going to “get in the game.”

    Here she is (not the platinum blonde, Rachel Ensign comes in a few seconds later):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFApVEABkYM

  13. Jill says:

    #7: Jeb Bush’s Call for ‘Restoration’

    That means a restoration of what he feels is the Bush family’s rightful place “reigning over” this country.

    I mean seriously….do you mean the Republicans can’t come up with anyone possessing even a soupçon of sanity whose name isn’t “Bush”? Do you all love this family so much?

  14. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    “So buyers with good credit and a hefty down payment may benefit the most.”

    this line stuck out to me.

  15. Mikewaited says:

    Essex 8 It is not coming back ” we don’t make anything anymore, we’ve mortgaged our future to China” is true and not a good thing. To say our best days are ahead of us is disingenuous at best, after WWII we enjoyed being the industrial and military dominate force in the world. This was reflected in our standard of living and decent living for just about everyone, hence the good old days. So the over 60 folks lived it and the 70 minus IQ crowd can not get their minds around the new reality. This does not mean it is not desirable, because it is or that it should be scorned contemptuously just understood.

  16. yome says:

    Last time I checked,we owe China equal amount we spent in the war in Iraq.

  17. Jason says:

    Essex [8]

    Bring back the old days?

    You mean when we were the economic engine of the world? When we had excellent schools?

    No, that would be absurd, we like it the way it is now. Over 16 trillion in debt, and 50 million people on food stamps.

  18. yome says:

    The bulk of US debt is domestic

  19. Mike says:

    Peace 14 Look at number 11 they defaulted back in 2010 and just bought another home. Kind of like confessing to the priest and saying ten Hail Marys then all is forgiven.

  20. yome says:

    Our biggest cost is the accelerating health care cost entitlement

  21. Essex says:

    My life kicks ass. I don’t work in a mill. I am not on food stamps. My guess is lots of people like their lives today and don’t pine for some Hollywood version of what was. Talking points will need to evolve fellas. The gubmint programs from Food Stamps and FEMA help people. Sometimes. ;-)

  22. Essex says:

    Dumbing down modern life and clinging to some notion of paradise lost….

  23. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Our trade status with China is actually pretty sweet. They manufacture and ship us tangible goods and we send them pixels in return.

  24. 3B Buying says:

    10% down or 20% down, no difference in rates, from what I am seeing. Just saying.

  25. Mikewaited says:

    ” My life kicks ass.” I guess that just about says it all . You are OK so is the future for the country as a whole, Oh and yes I’ll throw in some change threw taxes for food stamps for those dumb people.

  26. Essex says:

    25. Exactly man – Rugged Individualism. My life is the only thing that I control. Geezus pick an argument and stick with it.

  27. Essex says:

    Dumb people and others often get exactly what they work for, aspire too, or can handle. My tune hasn’t changed.

  28. Essex says:

    25. BTW that doesn’t mean i live pain free or do not struggle. Sometimes i feel it is the struggles and the tiny victories that give my life meaning.

  29. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:
  30. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    and Christie has an 80%+ approval rating. i guess we have low standards.

    “its a town full of losers and i’m pullin’ outta here to wiiiiiiiin”

  31. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [30] dope,

    Yeah, imagine how much better it would have been if the democratic Assembly and the courts didn’t roll over like lapdogs and give Christie everything he wanted. They should have shown more spine instead of allowing the Fat Man to enact sweeping changes to everything.

    Not that it’s my problem anymore.

  32. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [29] pain

    As I peruse the entire list, I am struck by the fact that political orientation doesn’t seem to play any meaningful role at all. At the top, there are traditionally dem and GOP states, and the same holds true for the bottom. Now, there are the outliers you would expect, like Cali, Illinois, and RI at the bottom, but there isn’t enough correlation to say that GOP (hence, business friendly) states do well and Dem (hence, business hostile) states do worse. Rather, it is, as expected, correlated very strongly to the demographics and economic engines within a state. Further, situations predominate–would Nebraska head that list if it weren’t for the Bakken Shale?

  33. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    31 – not your problem anymore…except for your jersey fetish that keeps you here.

    can you only see things from one viewpoint? my comment was not partisan; we are 4th worst run state according to that report and the guy running it currently has an 80%+ approval rating…if a complete fool was in his place where would the state be? 3rd worst run? 2nd worst run? not a huge difference.

  34. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [20] yome,

    “Our biggest cost is the accelerating health care cost entitlement”

    And has the growth of that segment slowed or accelerated in the last couple of years?

  35. Essex says:

    33. His poll numbers have everything to do with Sandy. And his Obama embrace.

  36. Essex says:

    Can’t wait to see what happens when we push austerity on aging Boomers. Xx

  37. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    Closed in The Fly – $5K above ask

    Last LP: $895,000 ML#: 1233355
    Addr: 4 KNOLL RD
    Twn: TENAFLY Zip: 07670

    Orig LP: $895,000
    Sold: $900,000
    SD: 11/23/2012 UCD: 10/2/2012 DOM: 15

  38. Fast Eddie says:

    “We think the answer, definitively, is that home prices have bottomed,” says Stan Humphries, chief economist of real-estate firm Zillow.

    LMAO!! Sure Stan, whatever you say. And indications are that the sun will rise tomorrow.

  39. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    nom one of the interesting things that struck me was a good number of the states have high avg incomes even with the low rating and high taxes. So having a tax base and complicit populace allows for unabashed borrowing. not surprised about the resource rich states problem is you would have to live in some of them though north Dakota and Wyoming are both really nice.

  40. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    Closed in The Fly

    Last LP: $759,000 ML#: 1215418
    Addr: 314 TENAFLY RD
    Twn: TENAFLY Zip: 07670

    Orig LP: $799,000
    Sold: $725,000
    SD: 11/19/2012 UCD: 8/24/2012 DOM: 120

  41. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    another recently closed in The Fly

    Last LP: $688,000 ML#: 1225448
    Addr: 88 JOYCE RD
    Twn: TENAFLY Zip: 07670

    Orig LP: $688,000
    Sold: $680,000
    SD: 11/23/2012 UCD: 8/6/2012 DOM: 27

  42. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [33] dope

    “not your problem anymore…except for your jersey fetish that keeps you here.”

    Actually, I just live to annoy you. It’s my entire existence. I have no other life.

    I suppose I should migrate my friends from here onto Facebook and be done with NJRER but I do appreciate the divergent views. For that matter, most of my FB friends are raving liberals so I can’t avoid diverging views anyway.

    “can you only see things from one viewpoint? my comment was not partisan”

    You may not have intended to be partisan but it sure came across that way; it’s how I would have phrased it if I wanted to link Christie to the ranking and infer that most NJ voters are fools. And you haven’t been shy about partisanship in the past so I think it is reasonable to expect it.

    “we are 4th worst run state according to that report and the guy running it currently has an 80%+ approval rating…if a complete fool was in his place where would the state be? 3rd worst run? 2nd worst run? not a huge difference.”

    Probably not since its a short drop to the bottom, statistically speaking (probably longer in real terms). But to my point, the insinuation that Christie is somehow largely responsible is wrong. The weakness in the criteria used has long predated him. Further, he hasn’t been able to get much of an agenda passed and for good reason; the Assembly and court’s won’t let him. I am not saying a Christie transformation would have worked but I am also saying that the problem doesn’t begin and end at the governor’s office door.

  43. Essex says:

    Eddie=a taste for wine on a beer budget.

  44. Essex says:

    Christie is just happy to have a job. If Booker runs, Chris is done. Bet on it.

  45. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    this is hysterical!!!!!!

    “the insinuation that Christie is somehow largely responsible is wrong. The weakness in the criteria used has long predated him. Further, he hasn’t been able to get much of an agenda passed and for good reason; the Assembly and court’s won’t let him.”

    it read like you are writing something about christie but all i read is “blame bush, blame bush, blame bush…take responsibility already.”

  46. Fast Eddie says:

    Essex,

    840 FICO and a stack waiting. Let me know what part confuses you. You know, being from where you’re originally from and all, I make exceptions.

  47. jcer says:

    #39, the rich states(high income) are the ones that can afford the incompetent government. Other states would have a hard time deriving the revenue from their populous to be run as poorly as California, NY, or NJ. The wealthy states also generally receive less from the federal government, which isn’t helping and there public employees generally require much higher pay due to the cost of living and generally being union states.

  48. yome says:

    #34 Nom

    It has accelerated.With Insurance Companies bidding in the State Pools,I am optimistic Ocare will slow it down.

  49. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [45] dope,

    Glad you enjoyed it. And good to see the old Seif back. You were starting to moderate and it was worrying me.

    [44] essex

    Not sure that Booker would poll well statewide. He would be good for me though.

  50. Essex says:

    46. Thanks Eddie. You deserve the best. Rich mahogany. Tailored sheets. Furs.

  51. jcer says:

    I think Booker is a great guy(Smart, honest, etc) but probably should take Lautenberg’s seat, as the guy is 900 years old. He has the skills to be a good senator or congressman but in his running of Newark he does not seem to be the greatest manager.

  52. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    Nom – We like to bicker but being able to laugh at ourselves occasionally takes the edge off. I appreciate that you have a sense of humor about yourself.

  53. yome says:

    Booker gave the graduation speech at my sons graduation,guy was impressive.

  54. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [48] yome,

    It may slow but it won’t reverse. Ocare added lots of new coverages and mandated cost-shifting, both directly and indirectly. Ins. cos should be indifferent to this as it represents a bar for all players and they can just adjust their costs accordingly. But to the ratepayers, it was a real hit, particularly the young.

    Kneale voiced something yesterday that I had been thinking about (but I ultimately disagreed with him): he felt that it was ironic that the young vote went so heavily to Obama when the brunt of Ocare is going to be felt by that demographic. I don’t think it will hit them that hard because they use the no-preexisting-condition rule to game the system, those that aren’t working will get more free care, and more of the added coverages inure to the benefit of that demographic. So, on balance, that demographic makes out and Kneale is wrong. He is only correct with respect to young working people with group health benefits through their jobs; they will get hit but I would wager that much less of that segment went for O-man anyway.

  55. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [52] dope

    No one else takes me seriously so why should I?

  56. Essex says:

    46. Eddie, Your qualifications are impeccable. We would love to make you a debt slave in our big blue ribbony family, Signed, Haughtytown

  57. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [50 essex

    Don’t forget rich Corinthian leather. And crush valor.

  58. Essex says:

    57. I’m uh kind of a big deal … Ron Burgundy

  59. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [47] jcer,

    Those are meaningful inputs but only part of the whole. Further, I don’t put much stock into surveys like this because they are criteria-dependent. Change the criteria, you change the outcomes, perhaps dramatically.

  60. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [59] essex

    Musta missed that. Besides, someone has to channel JJ for the day.

  61. yome says:

    Nom.
    I agree,but in the long run,I think most everyone except for the employees that work for a big company will be the only ones that will have an health care through their jobs. Small businesses will be paying the penalty and let their workers join the state pool.

    ” He is only correct with respect to young working people with group health benefits through their jobs; they will get hit but I would wager that much less of that segment went for O-man anyway”

  62. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    nom see how much lunacy is on facebook thanks to wife’s friends, it is like a liberal hive mind. Plus I really don’t want people finding me unless I allow them to.

    Wonder if JJ’s mercedes survived the flood?

  63. Essex says:

    Will the last team to leave The Big East please turn off the lights?

  64. Essex says:

    63. Funny all of my FB friends are ultra conservative. But then again, look at where they are from. The split is easily 80/20.

  65. Fast Eddie says:

    I gave my notice today for the new gig. What do they do? They countered with more money than the new gig.

    New gig location – in the heart of haughtyville
    Old gig – 35 miles from haughtyville
    New gig – top 100 firm to work for, global presence
    Old gig – small firm with keen eye on budget
    New gig – more stress, bigger role, 2:00 AM calls possible, greater advancement potential
    Olg gig – standard stress, no surprises, straightforward

    Opinions? Questions?

  66. George Soros says:

    ******
    Renee and Dwaine McCuistion, who lost their Las Vegas home after defaulting in 2010, are feeling lucky again. They bought another property last month for $475,000, 42 percent less than what the previous owner paid.
    *******

    Who picked up the tab when these scumbags defaulted in 2010? Now they want to do it again.

  67. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    Eddie your either moving forward or falling behind. thank them for the genrous offer, but the new position is about more than just money. Let them know that though this chapter in your career is closing there may be opportunity to revisit your business relationship in the future once you ahve acquired more skills and experience.

    Nom – somewhere in this O care mess is an opportunity to get really f*cking rich. I have to sit down with the law and look for opportunities to pitch to the government leaches. Hell if you can not beat it may as well find a way to make money off of it.

  68. Anon E. Moose says:

    Sx [43];

    Eddie=a taste for wine on a beer budget.

    You would think that is insightful, if you were a weak-minded individual suckered in by the myth that ‘expensive’ wines have inherently better qualities.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/katiebell/2012/07/09/is-there-really-a-taste-difference-between-cheap-and-expensive-wines/

    Perhaps you should take this opportunity to re-examine what other myths you mindlessly perpetuate? Might I suggest your political leanings as a good place to start?

  69. zieba says:

    Eddie,

    I work in a small firm where loyalty is valued. You have shown that money is more important. They may have countered with more, but as far as your prospects go, it’s it’s already too late. In my opinion if you stay you are a marked man.

  70. Anon E. Moose says:

    Eddie [66];

    Conventional wisdom (and I agree with it): Never take the counter. If they thought you were worth what they’re offering now, they were willing to screw you and keep the difference until you made the aggressive move. Your unanticipated departure is merely inconvenient to them. They could quadruple your salary without costing them much if they planned to ax you as soon as they found a suitable replacement on their timetable.

    If you have some flexibility with the new gig to push out your start date (not likely, they’re hiring because they have a pain they need you to cure) then you can negotiate with the old place to stay on for 4-6 wks or so, at the newly offered salary and a nice big bonus for staying on and overseeing an orderly transition.

    More risky, you might go back to your new employer to see if there is any additional flexibility in their salary offer, in view of the counter.

    The safe move is to take what’s on the table and move on. Build good will with the new employer and make your money on the next move (internal to them or otherwise).

  71. Punch My Ticket says:

    Gary [66],

    The old gig’s offer is a panic reflex. If you stay, underneath they will never forgive you for putting them in the situation.

    You have to go.

  72. Fast Eddie says:

    zieba,

    It’s not the money, it’s the location and the advantage for advancement and benefit advantages. The big firm offers a pension on top of the 401K and is smack dab in the middle of the house hunting perimeter. Yes, they love me here and I’m comfortable but what makes sense in the long run? And yes, I probably am a marked man now.

  73. zieba says:

    Eddie,
    Oh, of course. I understand that. However, my comment was written from the standpoint of the employer, and I echo Punch’s sentiment. It was knee jerk reaction, they’re upping pay because they want continuity of operations. Your fate at the smaller place was cemented when you informed them of your departure.

    I should know, the guy before me found himself in this exact predicament.

  74. pete says:

    New gig easily.  Commute savings alone would probably be in $5K range, plus what, 2 hours a day less on the road?

  75. Fast Eddie says:

    Moose, Punch My Ticket,

    Agree. I absolutely agree.

  76. zieba says:

    Also, am I understanding correctly that old gig’s new offer is 40% higher than current? I remember you saying the new place was 20% higher than current.

  77. Fast Eddie says:

    All,

    It’s unanimous and you’re all echoing my thoughts.

  78. zieba says:

    Gary: Looks like the tribe has spoken. Pop a cork baby!

  79. Fast Eddie says:

    zieba,

    Old gig is now offering 25% higher than current base.

  80. Juice Box says:

    re # 66 – Eddie new GIG, then call an out of work friend to apply for your old job at the higher salary. The 35 mile difference in commute also makes a big difference in quality of life.

  81. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [73] eddie,

    You ARE a marked man in oldgig. And the newgig won’t appreciate you rescinding your acceptance. Trust me on that.

    Seems like a no-brainer.

  82. Brian says:

    I worked for a smaller company 9000 employees.

    Honestly I’d rather be in a bar drinking a beer over both jobs.

    That said, there’s a lot of waste and beuracracy in larger companies. If you can stomach it, it might be worth it. Sometimes they waste money on you. Also my role in the larger company is much more specialized….This makes me a bit uneasy because technology is always changing and I like to have a broad skillset.

    The joy of working for a smaller company was that I knew everyone and it was easier to get something done or fixed because there were less “cooks in the kitchen” so to speak.

    I’ve found that whether or not you are paid more or less depends more on you and the company you work for. Not so much it’s size.

    66.Fast Eddie says:
    November 28, 2012 at 10:30 am
    I gave my notice today for the new gig. What do they do? They countered with more money than the new gig.

    New gig location – in the heart of haughtyville
    Old gig – 35 miles from haughtyville
    New gig – top 100 firm to work for, global presence
    Old gig – small firm with keen eye on budget
    New gig – more stress, bigger role, 2:00 AM calls possible, greater advancement potential
    Olg gig – standard stress, no surprises, straightforward

    Opinions? Questions?

  83. Brian says:

    Crap. Top part of my post was cut off. Probably because i used carats….

    Sorry Gary. Anyway, it should read that I’ve worked for both smaller and larger companies that were local and had a global presence.

  84. Sima says:

    #54
    Every young adult (20s) that I know is thrilled about Obamacare because they feel they will now be able to get healthcare no matter what. No longer worries about preexisting conditions…Also they’re hoping to get in on state or federal insurance pools that may come out cheaper than any plans they can find now.
    When the salary is low, especially if you’re a contract worker or self-employed, health care (and dental care) is a worry at any age. And yes – healthy young adults also worry. A lot.

  85. Fast Eddie says:

    I’ve worked for global companies most of my professional life. This is the 2nd small company I’ve worked for and I just prefer the larger companies overall. Maybe because I’m just used to it. Remember also: this current gig is in the health industry and the new gig is back into the financial sector. I liked some aspects of this current gig but it’s a little willy-nilly. I’m more of a process guy and I think I’m just used to that kind of structure.

  86. joyce says:

    (85)
    Everyone I know who fits into the young adult category (20s) knows nothing about Obamacare.

    They probably wouldn’t recognize the bill’s actual name.

  87. joyce says:

    (85)

    One more thing, people in their 20s who are healthy do not worry at all about insurance, whether they have it or not. They probably do not even go to the doctor (any doctor) for multiple years at a time.

  88. xolepa says:

    Eddie, do not stay. I know many that have given their resignation only to see counteroffers. Myself included. All of us got pissed off because we realized we were being underpaid. Move on, but as mentioned before, don’t burn bridges.

  89. Essex says:

    69. Dumb article. Dumb post. Mouth breather.

  90. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    Sima the only thing i cared about in my 20’s was getting drunk and chasing tail. I didn’t start paying for health care until I was about 32 when I got engaged. this fits the norm of most folks I know then and now. those who were born here anyway.

  91. Comrade Nom Deplume says:

    [85] sima,

    I think that puts more of a face on what I was saying, and it is why I disagreed with Kneale. It is overall a great deal for younger workers but not because of preexisting conditions. Mostly due to the fact that they can now be carried on their parent’s plans, and will have more access to free or state-sponsored care. Pre-existing buys them time in case they aren’t covered but that is probably not a driving factor.

    But I still maintain that a segment of younger workers is going to pay more under Ocare than they would have otherwise. That was known and intended, and they are being thrown under the bus for the greater good. At least it isn’t a tax increase, right?

  92. Sima says:

    #87 and #88
    Those are the stupidest comments I’ve heard in a long time. But perhaps it’s the young adults you have contact with.
    The ones I know overall (all college educated) are very concerned about the future and how they will fare. They may not be reading the newspaper, but they are reading the news online at multiple sites. And all sorts of magazines, including Time magazine, etc. I’m also surprised how passionate many are about politics .

  93. Brian says:

    you better tell them to stop worrying and get out there and chase some tail or they will not have any decendants.

    93.Sima says:
    November 28, 2012 at 11:55 am
    #87 and #88
    Those are the stupidest comments I’ve heard in a long time. But perhaps it’s the young adults you have contact with.
    The ones I know overall (all college educated) are very concerned about the future and how they will fare. They may not be reading the newspaper, but they are reading the news online at multiple sites. And all sorts of magazines, including Time magazine, etc. I’m also surprised how passionate many are about politics .

  94. 3B Buying says:

    #86 Fast: Congrats!! You are weighing the pro’s and cons, which makes sense. The only thing I would also consider, is what ikind of outlook for both companies going forward,as in which one might be the lesser prone to cutbacks in the future.

  95. joyce says:

    (93)
    Sima,

    Very well said. Your anecdotal statement is clearly 100% accurate. Yet, my anecdotal statement is the stupidest… or is it the ‘most stupid’? Grammar is tricky.

  96. Sima says:

    #96 stupidest is correct

  97. joyce says:

    No, it’s most stupid.

    Would you say ‘stupider’? No, you would say more stupid.

  98. Anon E. Moose says:

    Sx [90];

    I understand. That’s simply the best you’ve got.

  99. zieba says:

    joyce: whereas Sima’s post was simply dismissive, yours was expertly veiled and superbly condescending. full credit. grammar is irrelevant here as it was not the spirit or intent of post 96.

  100. Fast Eddie says:

    Grammar doesn’t count on this forum. In fact, everyone should post like they’re in Goodfellas. Now, go get your f.ucking shine box! ;)

  101. joyce says:

    Thank you, zieba. As was my intent.

  102. 1987 Condo Buyer says:

    Sorry for the repeat post…had a power outage here and I guess I messed up!!!

  103. chicagofinance says:

    The End Is Nigh (Stu Libtard Edition):

    GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. — Detroit Red Wings prospect Riley Sheahan faces charges under Michigan’s tougher “super drunk” designation following a traffic stop during which police discovered him clad in a Teletubby costume.

    According to a Grand Rapids police report obtained by MLive.com, Sheahan twice registered a blood alcohol level of 0.30 percent following his arrest on Oct. 29. The driving limit is 0.08 percent and the benchmark for the “super drunk” designation is 0.17 percent.

    Police say he wearing the costume of a purple Teletubby, also known as Tinky Winky, during the stop. Thee 20-year-old Grand Rapids Griffins center from St. Catharines, Ontario, played in college at Notre Dame.

    The “super drunk” charge carries a penalty of 180 days in jail and possible deportation. Sheahan’s next hearing is scheduled for Dec. 13.

  104. yome says:

    #93 college kids are obligated to proof of health insurance without it,they need to buy from the universities. Kids do worry about health insurance when it is time they need to use it.

  105. Essex says:

    100. I see whatcha did there. I gave you about as much as i felt the post deserved.

  106. Essex says:

    You get exactly what you pay for.

  107. chicagofinance says:

    gary: walk….you owe oldgig nothing, and if your needlessly extended job search taught you anything, they will find a replacement in short order. They obviously were lowballing you anyway. Most importantly (since you have less experience at smaller companies), one of their advantages is that there is less pay benchmarking and corporate bureaucracy. As a result, they can more directly pay for performance, without needing to go through some moroninc set of human resource protocols. In this vein, you should take great offense to the idea that they countered in that manner. In means that they were playing you for a sucker. You called their bluff……

  108. Mike says:

    Gary In case you haven’t heard I don’t shine shoes no more. All kidding aside I turned down a counter offer about thirty years ago and I’m still at the same place while the other went under.

  109. chicagofinance says:

    gary: to restate…instead of the counter, there should have been a recognition after your proved yourself. Essentially, hey gary we fcuked up on your salary, we are fixing it because we know you are valuable, and you can walk and make more…..

  110. chicagofinance says:

    …the only excuse was that they were waiting to close the book on 2012, and you were going to be “made whole” in Janaury.

  111. Libtard in the City says:

    Chifi,
    Nice one on the Teletubby Tip.

    Gary,
    You are a marked man at the current place of employ.

    Flaming Liberals,
    Booker would get crushed (literally and figuratively) in an election with the Christie. I blame the state assembly for failing to allow Christie to pass much of his much needed reform. One need only to look at his leaky prop tax cap to see it. From those I know who live in Newark (and these are the uppity folks), Booker is a great guy but not doing anything to help the city. The fact he isn’t as corrupt as SJ does not make him a prime candidate for governor. Though, I could see Booker fast tracking it to the federal level.

  112. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    another good chuckle today! as if joyce has ever had a different intent. funny.

    103 joyce says:
    November 28, 2012 at 12:26 pm
    Thank you, zieba. As was my intent.

  113. grim says:

    You’ll be a whore if you take the counter, it is not possible to stay.

  114. HouseWhineWine says:

    88- What young adults do you hang around with? Both of mine are in their 20’s and they are even diligent about getting flu shots! And, the older one is already setting aside money in a healthcare bank account so that he can purchase healthcare on his own. Oh, and also I work in the medical field and young people come in as patients all the time. In fact, they are intelligent (most of the time) and they DO care about their health.

  115. 250K says:

    Gary, sounds like you already know you will be taking the new job but just let me echo the “don’t burn bridges” advice.

    Many years ago I gave notice at my job (at a Fortune Global 100 behemoth) that I was leaving when my contract was up to move back East (from where I was in SoCal). I advised them 4 months in advance before they even opened up contract negotiations. They said they would write me a new contract within 48 hours with pay increase and bigger title if I stayed. Mind you, I had nowhere to go, simply was burnt out and decided to move back East. Its amazing what happens when you feel you have nothing to lose. I was really pissed that they hadn’t offered the money and title sooner as I deserved it after a year of working 100+ hrs a week but I left with a smooth transition and no burnt bridges. Less than a month after moving back East I got a call from corporate office in NYC asking me to start a new job there with more $ and title. I never even needed to put together a resume or interview because my old bosses talked me up to the east coast colleagues. I ended up interviewing THEM to be sure it would be a good fit.

    Unless you win Powerball, don’t burn bridges.

  116. joyce says:

    Perhaps, the fact that you work in a medical field has ultimately influenced their behavior.

  117. Sima says:

    #99 Joyce
    Strutting around with arrogant and condescending attitudes towards others, perhaps you’ve forgotten how to use a dictionary?
    stupid, stupider, stupidest

  118. zieba says:

    I don’t know Joyce. I know plenty of young (did we explicitly define?) people for who healthcare is a very important, first-plan topic. I feel like your presumption is that illnesses and medical expenses are nonexistent until a certain age, which is just not correct.

    Childbirth, cancer, hereditary diseases… these are costs which also keep young people up at night. I’ll go a step further as to say that the expenses associated with some will shape the course of their lives. Let’s be serious here; nobody is sweating the cost of a $200 general practitioners or a $100 generic/antibiotic script.

  119. jcer says:

    lib, I have heard from political insiders the deal with Booker is he thinks and talks and delegates very important things to people who for all practical purposes are incompetent. The guy has some good ideas but has not been able to execute on anything. As a governor it wouldn’t end well, but as a legislator he could work and Lautenberg is so old it is time for him to go. Sharpe was pretty sleezy but he got it done at least sometimes.

  120. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    Man I would love to meet all the worry wort young people you folks know. the only people who love young folks to have health insurance are insurance companies. Never need it and pay for their houses in the bahamas.

  121. grim says:

    Childbirth, cancer, hereditary diseases… these are costs which also keep young people up at night.

    New Baby? Stopped keeping tabs at $750,000. 98% of it is complete crap. If I didn’t know better, I’d say the hospital was attempting to commit insurance fraud.

  122. Sima says:

    Oh Grim, it sounds like you went through a rough time with the birth/new baby.
    Is everything OK now?

  123. grim says:

    Wife got a 7 1/2 week “vacation”, hospital bed rest for pre-term labor. Made it to 35 weeks. The bill would have probably been much higher if she had delivered at 27.

  124. joyce says:

    (119)
    Sima,

    Let’s cut the crap and get down to brass tacks. Seldom do I ever strut; however on occasion, I have been known to prance.

    “The superlative form of stupid is most stupid, as in I made the most stupid mistake, not stupidest. Stupidest can be heard and seen everywhere, but it’s wrong. Stupid is just like lucid (same -id ending). The comparative form is more lucid, and the superlative form is most lucid. Likewise, the comparative form of stupid is more stupid, and the superlative form is most stupid. In fact, in general, -id words use more and most instead of –er and –est.”

    “The rule of thumb is that, if a word is one syllable, use “er” and “est,” as in “tall, taller, and tallest.”
    But . . . “Many adjectives of two syllables and all longer adjectives form the comparative and superlative by adding “more” and “most.”

  125. grim says:

    Baby is doing great. If we didn’t have insurance, we’d be in foreclosure/bankruptcy, no doubt. I wouldn’t even make an attempt to try to pay down a 3/4s of a million dollar hospital bill.

  126. grim says:

    Actually, that didn’t include the NICU stay. Let’s just say an even million.

  127. NJGator says:

    Just finished filling out the St. Barnabas pre-admission paperwork. They claim that many of the Empire BCBS plans don’t even cover “well newborn care” and demand a $7800 deposit for a regular delivery and $9600 for a scheduled C-Section delivery and will then bill you for the balance. And that’s for folks with insurance. And that’s for people who actually have some insurance.

    Back in 2005 the hospital billed our insurance plan over $50k for the 4 day stay Lil Gator and I had for a scheduled c-section. Only “complication” suffered by the little guy was jaundice.

  128. joyce says:

    (120)
    Zeiba,

    I believe we definied this topic to healthy young people (20s). So I’m not sure cancer and hereditary diseases is applicable. For child birth, can we assume this is a planned event?

    I’m in agreement with Pain. I thought we were talking about young healthy people in their 20s. I guess I’m missing what health concerns young healthy people have day to day. Of course, someone without insurance (or adequate insurance) could have an accident which may change their life. But the young healthy people I knew in the past and know now… they feel invincible, and if they’re like Pain, they’re just chasing the lady-folk around all day & night. ;-)

  129. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    so, saying “joyce loves to endlessly argue the stupidest points because she gets off on herself” would not be correct?

  130. Peace, Love, Dope says:

    From Merriam Webster

    One entry found.

    stu·pid /ˈstu:pəd, Brit ˈstju:pəd/ adjective
    stu·pid·er; stu·pid·est

  131. NJGator says:

    Million Dollar Baby, Grim!

  132. Anon E. Moose says:

    Grim [123];

    Of course they are! It’s a bigger fiction than new car MSRP. The hospitals and doctors will take 15-20% of what they bill and be happy about it.

    Medical costs are skyrocketing because the customer does not pay the bill. I remember medical insurance 25 years ago when there was Blue Cross and you had 70/30 co-insurance as well as co-pays. Docs wanted to keep their patients (read clients, customers) happy, so they inflated the bills and ‘settled’ for 70% of the bill. This did two things: first people met their deductible faster; second there was nothing out of pocket after the deductible is met — fire up the lab tests and pediatric tonsillectomies! No one is watching the bill!

    I now have a high-deductible plan ($6k) with no co-pays, and I have not met my deductible this year nor last, including an ER visit this year. This is because the insurance company negotiated rates far below “list price”. I pay the negotiated rates and get that much credit towards my deductible. I would have blown through my deductible three times otherwise.

    To me, my insurance company is not insurance per se, but merely a negotiating co-op that improves my bargaining power with the docs/hospitals, on my behalf and without me even getting involved.

  133. grim says:

    I cannot even fathom how someone without insurance even navigates the process.

    Does the patient need to ask the price when they ask for a suppository? I’d like to take a crap, what’s that going to run me? $450 for the resident consult and $125 for the pharmacy? Forget it, I’ll suffer. What do you mean I need an ultrasound? I had one the other day. No thanks, I’ll pass, I can’t afford two in one week.

    It’s like getting sent to Neiman Marcus with a personal shopper, and the whole time the personal shopper is tearing off all the price tags. When you get to the register, you are asked to pay before you get the total price. And after you pay, sorry, all sales final.

  134. Sima says:

    #126 Joyce: I checked and the last 2 editions of of The American Heritage Dictionary have:
    stupid, stupider, stupidest

    Also, from The Grammarphobia Blog:
    Stupid, stupider, and stupidest
    February 5th, 2009
    “I don’t see any problem with “stupidest.” The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (4th ed.), for example, gives the forms as “stupid” … “stupider” … “stupidest.”

    And this isn’t a peculiar Americanism. H. W. Fowler’s Dictionary of Modern English Usage also gives the correct forms as “stupid” … “stupider” … “stupidest.”

    And “stupidest” does seem to be quite common in English usage. While the Oxford English Dictionary has no entry specifically for “stupidest,” I did find the word in several quotations cited within other entries, including these:

    1828: Thomas Carlyle, in a letter, refers to “the simplest and stupidest man of his day.”

    1842: Samuel Lover, in Handy Andy: A Tale of Irish Life (1842), writes, “She felt the pique which every pretty woman experiences who fancies her favours disregarded, and thought Andy the stupidest lout she ever came across.”

    1871: Charles Gibbon, in the novel For Lack of Gold, writes, “This cursed frenzy makes me say and think the stupidest things.”

    Just for the heck of it, I searched online in “The Proceedings of the Old Bailey, 1674-1913,” and found the word used in testimony in a theft case tried in May 1785. A prosecutor is quoted as saying, “I should be the stupidest man living, having property, to leave my house so unsafe.”

  135. zieba says:

    I guess it really depends on what types of circles one rolls in.

    Setting aside the issue of seemingly healthy people finding themselves unhealthy and focusing on the latter: Birthing a reverse Schrodinger’s baby can only be planned to the extent that it is even a financially feasible option, yes?

    That said, I think we’re losing focus here. We may even be on the same page, but I sort of jumped into this after your comments to Sima and have not tracked back to the beginning. Have a good one.

  136. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    grim try having two at once. I also had the same thought as you this must be frauduelent there is no way this can cost this much.

  137. Fast Eddie says:

    Doesn’t the Affordable Care Act now remove the price tags?

  138. Sima says:

    Grim – but is the baby OK? And your wife?

    I know several individuals who didn’t have insurance (contract workers and unemployed) who had to have procedures done without the benefit of medical insurance. Let’s just say that every month for the rest of their lives they will pay $ to the hospital.
    I know others who absolutely put off going to a doctor and/or taking medicines
    because they don’t have insurance and no way to pay the costs.
    Who needs death panels? We already have them in the USA – it’s those who have insurance vs those who don’t.

  139. Brian says:

    Is there currently a NJ location within an hour commute to NYC, that has reasonably priced rental properties? Currently it seems some NJ towns have seen a big decrease in housing.

  140. Libtard in the City says:

    I’m in favor of death panels! Of course, I’m also in favor of the removal of reproductive organs for repeat DWI offenders.

  141. Libtard in the City says:

    Brian,

    Clifton! Grim will agree with me.

  142. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Gary – congrats and I’m with the consensus. Thank them nicely for the counter, but don’t take it.

    “Churchill: “Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?”
    Socialite: “My goodness, Mr. Churchill… Well, I suppose… we would have to discuss terms, of course… ”
    Churchill: “Would you sleep with me for five pounds?”
    Socialite: “Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!”
    Churchill: “Madam, we’ve already established that. Now we are haggling about the price”

  143. Brian says:

    Brian you need a different handle. This ones taken.

  144. Brian says:

    yeah. taken by me.

  145. Brian says:

    and it is “one’s”

  146. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    [142] Lib – DWI = Driving while Intoxicated, or just on the rare occasion that a peace officer formally documents the event?

    I’m in favor of death panels! Of course, I’m also in favor of the removal of reproductive organs for repeat DWI offenders.

  147. Brian says:

    The new Brian is a stubborn wise guy. Must be something about the name Brian.

  148. Brian says:

    He’s stupider than me too.

  149. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    sussex Brian I was just about to ask you if you had been kicked oout for stubbornly holding onto that old frontier ; )

  150. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    Brian – Did your Mom’s house ever sell?

  151. Brian says:

    My mother bought my father out and he moved to Florida w his new wife….

    It’s a long story.

  152. Happy Renter says:

    Fiscal Cliff: Why Congress Might Have to Mess with the 401(k)

    “One of the earliest fears about tax-favored savings accounts like IRAs and 401(k) plans was that when this pool of savings grew large enough Congress would not be able to resist tapping it to help solve the nation’s debt problems. . . . And now these accounts have a meaningful total—and everything is on the table.”

    http://business.time.com/2012/11/28/fiscal-cliff-why-congress-might-have-to-mess-with-the-401k/

    And so it begins . . .

  153. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    The Walled City gained a reputation as a sort of den of iniquity—there were high levels of prostitution, gambling, mafia activity, and rampant unlicensed dentistry.

    http://99percentinvisible.org/

  154. Ernest Money says:

    I want Sharpe James to run for gubnor.

  155. Ernest Money says:

    renter (155)-

    Wait until we have capital controls and 401-IRA money forced into Treasury purchases.

    Anyone who thinks this won’t happen is smoking wet.

    Good times.

  156. Phoenix says:

    [134] moose
    The hospitals charge what they do to make up for the loss they incur on EVERY medicaid/medicare patient + all of the non – payers/uninsured. Most if not all NJ hospitals are breaking even at best or in the red. Also, doctors do a wallet biopsy on the patient first, if they are healthy and have good insurance, off to their surgery center you go. If you are real sick (likely to have a comeback w/o reimbursement) or you have medicaid, medicare or no insurance, you go to the hospital.

  157. 250K says:

    grim, just wait until you are celebrating your baby’s 13th, 14th even 15th month of life and still getting bills! And then you have to figure out if you actually met your deductible for other medical visits for you and your wife and baby but the doctor who may have been in the room during the birth (given your situation there had to be more medical staff than you could count on one hand) didn’t bother to bill until over a year later. do you pay this unknown doctor whom you have never heard of for their generic charge for “1st stabilization of newborn” whatever the hell that is.

    Loved your suppository comment. Its seriously a joke that is not at all funny because yeah, if you don’t have insurance…. I also can’t even fathom it. Each time you buzz the nurse while you are on bedrest so you can pee into a bedpan, are you supposed to ask yourself if its really worth the $10 charge for the plastic bedpan plus the $5 in wipes plus $5 for the gloves they use etc etc.

    Painhrtz is right, try two at once in the NICU as well.

    and then try taking one home on an apnea monitor. if you don’t sh*t yourself each time the monitor goes off, you certainly will when you see the charge for the equipment.

  158. Happy Renter says:

    [158] “Wait until we have capital controls and 401-IRA money forced into Treasury purchases.”

    Yep. That’s already starting; I’m hearing that many plans are dropping cash/money-market funds and forcing all non-equity money into Treasury purchases.

    Things will really get interesting when Uncle Omar, er, Uncle Sam tells Joe Serf that his S&P 500 fund is being converted into Treasuries because “folks need a little more money in their pockets.”

  159. Punch My Ticket says:

    Well, if the proposal is just to deny or limit deductibility of new 401k contributions, no big deal. As an early retired middle boomer, I’m not making any more contributions. I got mine, Jack, so Harry Reid can do his worst on this subject.

    Screw the common weal. It’s all the rage these days.

    However, if the subject of excise taxes on actual balances surfaces, stern measures may have to be taken…

  160. Happy Renter says:

    [163] “if the proposal is just to deny or limit deductibility of new 401k contribution . . . ”

    Ha ha – good one.

  161. chicagofinance says:

    Punch: that is why the article is misleading…..if they get rid of the deduction going forward…too bad, but OK. However, the real third-rail is going after existing accounts….which won’t happen….it will be more aggressive RMD rules if anything….still, people will stoke hysteria to generate more clicks/eyeballs…..

    Punch My Ticket says:
    November 28, 2012 at 5:57 pm
    However, if the subject of excise taxes on actual balances surfaces, stern measures may have to be taken…

  162. Painhrtz -Oooh a donut says:

    Renter 155 and yet another thing that was predicted here shall come to pass.

  163. Juice Box says:

    Neighbor if mine just listed his condo 30% above the price paid in 2010. If he finds a sucker to pay that price I am going to have to buy a 1.5 million dollar home in the burbs. That is the bet I have with my wife….

  164. 250k says:

    167 Juice

    Renovations?

  165. Juice Box says:

    250k – ask is 500k more than they paid.

  166. Libtard at home says:

    Looky what opened in Montklair…

    http://montclairbaby.com/childbirth-education/

  167. Anon E. Moose says:

    Lib [171];

    What’s that they say: no such thing as bad publicity?

  168. 1987 Condo Buyer says:

    #125…current strategy of Hospitals is to form (purchase) panels of healthcare providers and out them on their payroll to insure beds stay full. This is in competition with the healthcare carriers doing similar with their goal to keep you out of the hospital….

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