No end to the foreclosures? Does it matter?

From the Philly Inquirer:

Foreclosure filings fell nationally in 2012, but not locally, research shows

Foreclosure filings fell 3 percent nationally in 2012 from 2011’s levels and were 36 percent below their 2010 peak, RealtyTrac reported Thursday.

Filings did increase in New Jersey (up 55 percent) and Pennsylvania (up 28 percent) last year, the Irvine, Calif.-based real-estate information firm said, but were still below the levels of 2010, considered a record year for foreclosures nationwide.

States experiencing hefty increases in 2012, including New Jersey and Pennsylvania, were those in which the courts handle foreclosures, said RealtyTrac vice president Daren Blomquist.

“We expect to see continued increases in judicial-foreclosure states near the beginning of the year as lenders finish catching up with the backlogs in those states,” Blomquist said. There will be another set of increases in some non-judicial states near the end of the year, he added, as “lenders adjust to the new laws and process some deferred foreclosures in those states.”

Yet the additional foreclosures are unlikely to be the torrent many housing observers had predicted.

“There are more distressed [sales] to come, but I doubt it will result in more price declines,” said Mark Zandi, chief economist of Moody’s Analytics in West Chester.

Investor demand for such properties is verging on voracious, he said. Demand for nondistressed properties also continues to strengthen.

“There may be a lull in house-price gains early this year, but it will be temporary and modest,” Zandi said Wednesday.

This entry was posted in Foreclosures, National Real Estate, New Jersey Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

161 Responses to No end to the foreclosures? Does it matter?

  1. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    Frist

  2. grim says:

    From the WSJ:

    Housing Inventory Ends Year Down 17%

    The number of homes listed for sale at the end of 2012 stood at the lowest level in more than five years, a development that helps explain why home prices have rebounded so strongly over the past year.

    The 1.57 million homes listed for sale at the end of December was down by 6.5% from November and by 17.3% from one year ago, according to data tracked by Realtor.com.

    Inventories typically decline in December, January and February as home-shopping activity cools. But the big story of 2012 was that inventories never really picked up, despite big declines in the previous year.

    “It’s been a buyers’ market for a while. Sellers have been reluctant to put their homes on the market,” said Steve Berkowitz, chief executive of Move Inc., which operates Realtor.com.

    January and February, he says, “are going to be an interesting time to watch” because they’ll provide early clues about buyer traffic and sellers’ expectations. Already, online search demand is up from one year ago. “The demand side is showing signs of good things to come,” said Mr. Berkowitz.

  3. grim says:

    From the Record:

    Foreclosures up in New Jersey last year due to backlog effect

    Foreclosure filings increased 55 percent in New Jersey in 2012, the result of the state’s long lead time for foreclosure proceedings, while foreclosure filings nationwide declined 2.7 percent, the real estate research firm RealtyTrac reported on Thursday.

    New Jersey has seen a surge in foreclosure filings the past six months as lenders have moved to clear backlogs of homes in default. New Jersey is one of 20 states that use a judicial foreclosure process, which has stalled some foreclosures three years or more. In 2011, foreclosure filings in New Jersey fell 73 percent, as questions about foreclosure rules held up lenders’ efforts to take action against homeowners unable to pay their home loans.

    New Jersey had 27,125 foreclosure filings in 2012. Nationwide, there were 1.8 million filings, according to RealtyTrac, a research firm based in Irvine, Calif., that follows the foreclosure market.

    There were 162,511 foreclosure filings nationwide in December, the lowest monthly total since April 2007, according to RealtyTrac. In New Jersey, there were 1,396 filings.

    In New Jersey in 2012, 0.76 percent of the housing units, or one of every 131, were in foreclosure. The national rate was 1.39 percent, or one of every 72 units.

    RealtyTrac reported that the New Jersey market improved for home sellers in 2012 because of less foreclosure inventory for sale, with the average home selling for 103 percent of the list price.

  4. grim says:

    From MarketWatch:

    Fewer sellers are cutting prices on their homes

    In another sign of a tightening housing market, the rate of price reductions in the U.S. is falling, the chief economist at real estate site Trulia wrote in a Wednesday blog post.

    This month 33.6% of for-sale homes have prices that are reduced from their original listing, down from 36.7% a year earlier, according to economist Jed Kolko.

    “Now is the bargain real estate season: asking home prices typically hit their seasonal low point from November through January. This winter, however, markdowns are harder to find,” Kolko wrote.

  5. Mike says:

    Good Morning New Jersey

  6. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    Nom – why did you decide to join the NRA now after not being a member?

  7. grim says:

    While his concept of refi burnout is interesting, I’m not sure that it has any negative impact at all on the overall market. I’m sure it’s a negative if your business is refi mortgage origination, but for the rest of us? Might just be positive for overall strength of the market and a positive for future price growth (via reduced supply). It’s also arguable that refi-burnout should absolutely be expected as the number of those who have begins to approach those who can (it’s a limited market).

    How I view the situation is this: Overall high rate of refi activity in concert with low rates has lowered the average mortgage rate of the US mortgage holder considerably, which obviously results in a lower overall cost of housing on aggregate. I believe the last stats I heard from Freddie Mac was of all those who refinanced (and their loans made it to Freddie of course), they lowered their mortgage payment by 31%, those who refinanced through HARP cut their monthly vig by 28-29%. That’s huge.

    Why is it huge? All other things equal, if we lower the overall cost of housing, we reduce the overall probability of default. You can’t argue that. Secondly, if we face rising rates in the future, the propensity for the average homeowner to trade up is reduced as they lose the benefit of their current rate, so to upgrade, not only do they need to pay more for a the new property, but they’ll need to pay higher financing costs as well, a double whammy that will reduce the overall supply of homes in the SFH market for the next, 5-10 years at least. This will also be a net positive to the average housing price in many areas as these finance-locked owners will likely remodel versus upgrade, increasing the quality and cost of the overall housing stock.

    The refi boom is not only positive for the peak bubble buyers, as reducing the financing cost has essentially the same effect as reducing the purchase price, so they’ve got somewhat of a reprive there, but for the pre-bubble buyers? It’s shifted them into a position of considerable financial strength. Not only did they pay lower prices overall, and had paid down principal, but they’ve now either refinanced into much shorter term mortgages, cutting their times to payoff, or they’ve reduced their already low housing costs further.

    The impact of the refi boom is already set, done, built-in. Every day that goes by with more refis, the stronger that position gets. So like I said above, if the refi boom is done, oh well, good times are over, hope you were able to catch that low rate like the rest of us.

  8. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [8] dope,

    To make a statement naturally. And I haven’t yet, but when I write to legislators, I will point out that I was never a member but that this government’s actions alarm me sufficiently to warrant it.

  9. JJ's B.Se says:

    “Why is it huge? All other things equal, if we lower the overall cost of housing, we reduce the overall probability of default. You can’t argue that”.

    Not true at all. Historically, presubprime the biggest reasons for a BK in a home was the three D’s, Divorce, Death and Dispair.

    When rates fly back up to 8%, homeowners in a bind wont be able to sell the sucky split for the 500K they paid with spin put down 100K borrow 400K at 3% and mortgage is only 900 a month

    400K borrowed at 8% is 2,400 a month.

    When rates rise folks forced to sell will be crushed.

  10. grim says:

    Second critique is that he focuses on the month over month changes. These series are all incredibly volatile. Did he write a piece two months ago about how both the MOM and the YOY figures jumped significantly (and that it was a positive)? Or is he just focusing on a one month blip in a volatile series to make his point? Haven’t we spend enough time looking at this data over the last 7 years to know, if anything, that one month (hell, 6 months) doesn’t make a trend?

    I suppose it’s much less sexy to look at the year over year changes, as that means our analysis moves slower than slugs (nobody is selling newsletter subscriptions based on that).

    Did he actually say that not seasonally adjusted pending sales fell in November? That’s not an analysis, that’s a fact that plays out EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Sure, maybe one November is somewhat stronger or weaker than another, but again, looking at one month of MOM data and trying to forecast out the next 3-4 years? That’s just silly.

    Why no statement on rising rents at all? Nothing. Not a mention at all? Probably the single most important method of housing valuation (pricing based on equivalent rents) is missing from his analysis? Folks, remember back to 2005 when one of the primary arguments we were making for the bubble was that home prices were outpacing rental prices more than the would have ever been rationally possible. To ignore that same analysis now is doing a disservice.

  11. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [7] dope,

    Something tells me that a GOP rep who gets insulted by Mother Jones and a horde of puling bennies isn’t likely to be moved by it. In fact, I could see them posting it on their wall.

    You forget that in some parts of the country, you are decidedly unpopular. And that’s before the get to know you.

  12. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    Every single poll I have read (from supposedly bipartisan networks and newspapers) shows that NRA members and gun owners decidedly agree with many of the proposed gun laws/restrictions that are being proposed; it is NRA leadership that is extreme and out of touch not only with the majority of American citizens but also its own members. The NRA has one goal: sell guns and memberships. Looks like it is working then.

  13. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [8] dope

    Also, as paradoxical as this will seem to you, I am doing this to protect the middle. When I lived in Massachusetts, I would regularly vote for minority candidates even though I wasn’t a supporter or a member of their party. The point was to remind the elected that there are others out there who do not share their views, and that they have rights. IMHO, landslides make for poor politics, and the cheer any of the majority is a very real concern, even in our constitutional system. Surely you said as much when Bush was president.

  14. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    disaster relief is not a popularity contest

  15. JJ's B.Se says:

    Sloppy reporting, it says Damato a republican was swayed by rich Fire Island Folks to fight for cheap flood insurance.

    Al Damato, grew up in Island Park Long Island, where his aged mom and family still live, he and his new wife have a huge water/beach front house in Lido Beach and he also has family members in Oceanside. He is for cheap flood insurance for flood prone homes as majority of family live by water. He himself owns like a two million dollar home on the water. But I am too believe a meeting with some rich folk on Fire Island made him for cheap flood insurance.

    Article also does not mention. 50% of homes damaged in Sandy had no flood insurance. It gives a total damage estimate. But first we have to knock 50% off, then of remaining 50% flood only covers first 250K in damage. Then I would say very very few got that as flood does not cover so many things and most are fair market value not replacement value. .

    Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:
    January 17, 2013 at 8:20 am

    “Map of Jerks”

    votes against Sandy Relief

    http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/01/map-republicans-object-disaster-relief-unless-sandy-hit-their-state

  16. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [14] dope

    Yes, and I believe those polls. But I think I understand pretty clearly what the motivations and goals of the left are. If you believe that the left would settle for this proposal and go no further you are deluded. Obama has made clear in the past that he would seek much, much more.

    So in this sort of kabuki dance, you stake out an extreme position and give ground grudgingly. I can live with stricter law enforcement, but I object to the purely cosmetic measures in the assault ban and magazine limitation.

  17. grim says:

    Not true at all. Historically, presubprime the biggest reasons for a BK in a home was the three D’s, Divorce, Death and Dispair.

    Irrelevant, I didn’t say eliminate, I said reduce, and we’re talking about post-subprime and post-bubble. There will always be some baseline rate of defaults in the market place, and reduction means to approach that, not go to zero.

    When rates fly back up to 8%, homeowners in a bind wont be able to sell the sucky split for the 500K they paid with spin put down 100K borrow 400K at 3% and mortgage is only 900 a month

    Wrong, a common misconception these days, more often than not home prices rise in concert with mortgage rates, not the other way. There is no inverse correlation between home prices and mortgage rates. The fact of the matter is, if mortgage rates are moving towards 8%, the economy is in all likelihood running very strong, as well as inflation being very high, both are positive for home prices.

  18. Anon E. Moose says:

    Dope [7];

    When it goes to the other guy’s district its pork, but everything is kosher in my district. Maybe the memory of FEMA debit cards being cashed in Louisiana casinos stuck with some people.

  19. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    The Associated Press reports that 35 hostages and 15 of their captors have been killed during an air raid by the Algerian military.

  20. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [16] dope

    Tell that to the folks in Texas who didn’t get it after a wildfire season. They seem to feel it was political.

    You forget that if the constituents didn’t feel this way, the reps wouldn’t. Face it, we are a divided nation and it isn’t getting better.

  21. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    22 – that is not fair. Rick Perry said he was gonna be able to take care of that drought with PRAYER!

  22. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    God, I so have to get a new keyboard app for this thing.

  23. JJ's B.Se says:

    I could care less if that bill was passed. Remember 0% of the money in that bills go to homeowners whose house was damaged by Sandy. It goes to govt.

    FEMA was funded enough to pay out the $31,900 to folks like me. That bill does not increase the $31,900. That funding along with the stupid 12/12 fund goes to non profits, charities, local govt, pork projects. etc.

    It is a stupid misconception that flood victims are getting money. I see tons of Sandy houses near me for sale. Ads all look alike, mold remediation complete, new oil burner, new main electric box, demo completed of lower level, ready for renovation.

    At $31,900 you quickly realize. ServePro for demo and mold remediation is like 8K, new oil burner, new tank, refil oil is 10K and new electric box and basic re-wiring is 6k. Add in some boarding up, and washer, dryer/ oven/Fridge so you can live there and you hit 31,900 and whole bottom half of house is a shell. That shell will cost almost 100K to rebuild. SBA only gives loans to folks with really good credit so old retired folks are toast. Even if they could get it how could they afford monthly payments.

    Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:
    January 17, 2013 at 8:54 am

    disaster relief is not a popularity contest

  24. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [23] dope,

    Surely a good Christian would never do that as it goes against Chr1sts teaching to not test God.

  25. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    I guess you are saying Rick Perry is not a good question.

    JJ – a world does exist outside of yours; there are other things that were damage besides your shitbox on LI.

  26. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    christian

  27. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [22] dope,

    Okay, let’s look locally. Only recently, the government added several Pennsylvania counties to the Sandy disaster list. But most of those were counties further from the affected area, and excluded Republican counties that were closer and that did sustain significant damage.

    So let’s recap. PA counties added weeks after the disaster, no appreciable stories of disaster damage in those counties, named counties all Democratic or in play, and solidly Republican counties excluded even though they were more heavily affected.

    No politics there, right?

  28. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [27] dope,

    If you can source that, then yes, I would say he made a mistake.

  29. grim says:

    Huge drop in initial claims this week, down to 335k, but may just be a statistical anomaly.

  30. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    August 11, 2011 NYT

    “Now, therefore, I, Rick Perry, Governor of Texas, under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes of the State of Texas, do hereby proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas.”

    In the four months since Rick Perry’s request for divine intervention, his state has taken a dramatic turn for the worse.

    Then the governor prayed, publicly and often. Alas, a rainless spring was followed by a rainless summer. July was the hottest month in recorded Texas history. Day after pitiless day, from Amarillo to Laredo, from Toadsuck to Twitty, folks were greeted by a hot, white bowl overhead, triple-digit temperatures, and a slow death on the land.

  31. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:
  32. Ernest Money says:

    Only statistics that matter are the number of Amerikans on food stamps and number of Amerikans applying for SS disability.

  33. Ernest Money says:

    Hungry don’t lie.

  34. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    Does anyone care if Texas secedes? Let them go.

  35. Juice Box says:

    JJ – they are including money for community block grants to rebuild in the Sandy Bill.

    Here is the current Louisiana program. Average grant was about 70k with some as high as 190k.

    http://www.road2la.org/Docs/HAP/Situation%20and%20Pipeline%20Reports/Week340%2001-08-2013.pdf

  36. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [32] dope,

    I’m confused. Are you saying that calling for prayer is the same as claiming that one can fix the problem with prayer?

  37. JJ's B.Se says:

    My shitbox is fixed. It is now half a shitbox. My house is now a butterface. Looks good on bottom and not on top.

    Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:
    January 17, 2013 at 9:09 am

    I guess you are saying Rick Perry is not a good question.

    JJ – a world does exist outside of yours; there are other things that were damage besides your shitbox on LI.

  38. Brian says:

    Wow Christie promises engineered dunes from Sandy Hook to Cape May. Sorry JJ we need the relief money for our dirt mounds. I can’t have Sandy ruining my vacation.

    http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2013/01/gov_christies_100th_town_hall.html#incart_river

  39. Juice Box says:

    Re#36 – won’t happen, If the Defense spending in Texas were to be cut half the state would be out of work.

  40. joyce says:

    Comrade,

    Why don’t you join JFPO? The NRA is all talk. In my opinion, they are there to act as a boogeyman at times, and to lobby on behalf of manufacturers. They have supported past gun control measures. Anything they’ve done to ‘protect’ 2nd amendment rights has been peripheral. JFPO in particular, and GOA for the most part, actually work toward their stated goals (protecting constitution rights).

  41. zieba says:

    JJ,
    I think its hilarious that you’re pushing fifty but have the vocabulary of a second year associate. There are only two conclusions which I can draw:
    1) You’re either the greatest boss ever
    or
    2) You try way (way) too hard

  42. joyce says:

    41
    Juice,

    I thought, even with defense spending, that Texas was a net giver to the FedGov?

    Here are a few sites: (are they reliable?)

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/11/states-federal-taxes-spending-charts-maps
    http://visualizingeconomics.com/blog/2010/02/17/federal-taxes-paidreceived-for-each-state
    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/11/states-federal-taxes-spending-charts-maps

    Hypothetically, (not familiar with Texas) if a lot of industry is tied up in things like Defense spending, a structural shift would have to take place causing temporary high unemployment… but I think they would survive.

  43. JJ's B.Se says:

    I am the bomb. Boom big hand wave

    zieba says:
    January 17, 2013 at 9:48 am

    JJ,
    I think its hilarious that you’re pushing fifty but have the vocabulary of a second year associate. There are only two conclusions which I can draw:
    1) You’re either the greatest boss ever
    or
    2) You try way (way) too hard

  44. Anon E. Moose says:

    Dope [36];

    Does anyone care if Texas secedes? Let them go.

    This is probably the first and only time that I wished our government worked as you think it should — according to your whimsical fiat.

  45. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    Pisani on BAC: “a law firm masquerading as a bank.”

    Classic

  46. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [42] Joyce,

    I had to Google JFPO to see what it was as I had never heard of it.

    I don’t think so.

  47. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [46] moose

    Juice is right. Won’t happen. Mountain and Southwest states and Alaska much more likely.

  48. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    Can we give California back to mexico, I mean most of Sonora and Baja are there already and their style of governance most resembles a third world crap hole anyway.

  49. joyce says:

    Comrade,
    Why not?

  50. Phoenix says:

    [21] Dope The Associated Press reports that 35 hostages and 15 of their captors have been killed during an air raid by the Algerian military.

    BP probably told the Algerian military to ventilate the place as employees are cheap, but keeping that plant off-line was costing them too much money.

  51. yome says:

    We send enough taxes to Washington and get back pennies and the bigger distributed to Red States that are complaining now.Is it only fair to get back some of this money after a crisis? The poor Red States has been getting more of our tax money.Not that I am complaining on our help.

  52. Libtard in the City says:

    Dope. “Map of Jerks”

    It’s partisan politics and it is absolutely killing this country. Sadly, you are one of the extremists and don’t even realize it. In a New York minute, you would vote for a criminal like Rangel or Reid if you could. The sheep will never get it.

    And Keep arguing the gun debate. NRA membership is skyrocketing and really needed the financial boost since Heston passed. How’s Guantamo doing since the executive order was issued?

    Baa Baa!

  53. joyce says:

    David Dishneau | Associated press

    FORT MEADE, Md. (AP) — A military judge’s ruling on Wednesday tightly limited an Army private’s ability to argue he had good reasons for allegedly sending hundreds of thousands of classified documents to the anti-secrecy website WikiLeaks.

    Pfc. Bradley Manning can use motive evidence at his June 3 trial only to show that he didn’t know the leaked material would be seen by al-Qaida, or to seek leniency at sentencing, Col. Denise Lind ruled during a pretrial hearing. Evidence of motive isn’t relevant to the other charges, she said.

    Prosecutors say Manning told an online confidant-turned-government-informant that he leaked the material because “I want people to see the truth” and “information should be free.” Lind said such material is only relevant as evidence of “whether he knew he was dealing with the enemy.”

    She also barred Manning from using at trial any reports compiled by government agencies that concluded the WikiLeaks revelations didn’t compromise national security. The defense can use such material only during sentencing.

    http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MANNING_WIKILEAKS?…

    land of the free

  54. joyce says:

    57

    yo

    So why don’t we call them on their bluff and stop the redistributive nature of taxation/spending? You’d be ok with that right.

  55. yome says:

    “.Not that I am complaining on our help”

  56. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    Joyce unfortunately for Private Manning he is f*cked, you sign away those freedoms when you join up. I don’t think what he did was wrong in that it pulled back the curtain, but it was story for about 5 seconds then we moved on to whoever was in Kim Kardashians pants.

    The military code of conduct considers honor and duty above all else. When your in, keeping your yap shut is part of that duty.

  57. joyce says:

    Pain,
    I agree. I just find it very sad that individuals now have little to no privacy, and the government has little to no transparency… and countless people defend both of those things as appropriate. Individuals are too stupid to hear and can’t be trusted with the truth. Yet, the same individuals if elected somehow gain superhuman power and are beyond reproach.
    Moreso than just lack of privacy/transparency is that the govt has zero accountability from the local to federal level. A police officer does something and he may get paid leave; a ordinary person does it and they get years in prison. I realize police need certain authority (LIMITED to specific circumstances), but how can there be such a great disconnect between slap on the wrist and jail time for the same actions? Even worse at the Federal level when we don’t even know 5% of what they’re doing.

  58. nwnj says:

    Huh? I thought you slapped it back together with the help of Home Depot mexicans? Sounds like a shltbox to me.

    “JJ’s B.Se says:
    January 17, 2013 at 9:26 am

    My shitbox is fixed. It is now half a shitbox. My house is now a butterface. Looks good on bottom and not on top. “

  59. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    I agree with you…it is simply a revenue drive for the NRA and Nom is the sheep following the shepherd. Baa Baa.

    If I am en extremist then you are a spendthrift.

    Libtard in the City says:
    January 17, 2013 at 11:03 am
    Dope. “Map of Jerks”

    It’s partisan politics and it is absolutely killing this country. Sadly, you are one of the extremists and don’t even realize it. In a New York minute, you would vote for a criminal like Rangel or Reid if you could. The sheep will never get it.

    And Keep arguing the gun debate. NRA membership is skyrocketing and really needed the financial boost since Heston passed. How’s Guantamo doing since the executive order was issued?

    Baa Baa!

  60. joyce says:

    Dope,
    You’re an extremist because you think there’s a difference between the two criminal gangs occupying washinton. Can you find one post of yours criticizing the democrats? Or better yet, can you find one post of your not criticizing the republicans?

  61. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    Rangel is a piece of garbage who should have been forced to crawl away in disgrace.

  62. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    there is s difference. it may not be on issues that you want it to be on and it may not be as wide of a gap as some would like but to say there is NO daylight btwn the two seems misguided.

  63. Libtard in the City says:

    So Dope…you are telling me that if it was Rangel vs. a Republican of common ilk, and you had a choice, you would vote for the Repub? I find that hard to believe!

  64. Libtard in the City says:

    There is no daylight between them, because once they get into office they are beholden to the lobbyists. How much pork was there in the Sandy aid package? Probably a shitload of it. All the same. They only use their social programs to maintain their voting bases. So why isn’t Guantanomo closed? Kennedy could put a man on the moon. Obama can’t even close up a prison located on an island where we have a trade embargo. Keep believing he wants to close it. Baa Baa.

  65. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    Lib quit baying Dope does not get it.

    Going and picking up 7 dollar devil tickets for you and Lil Gator Saturday night, figure it is right in your cheap wheelhouse. Me I’m not paying a dime at the garden this year though I’m sure I’ll watch on TV.

  66. Brian says:

    63 –
    I don’t want to speak for Nom but that’s not the impression I got. I think that he may view the country politically as leaning too far left. It’s a move to show that he desires we be more in the middle.

    63.Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:
    January 17, 2013 at 11:36 am
    I agree with you…it is simply a revenue drive for the NRA and Nom is the sheep following the shepherd. Baa Baa.

  67. Fabius Maximus says:

    #67 Lib

    We had that situation in 2010. Harry Reid was ripe for the taking and the GOP put up Sharon Angle. Sorry, I’m pulling the lever for Harry as that woman was Cuckoo for CocoPops.
    The GOP have done such a good job of purging the centerists out of their own party, they can’t get a moderate through the primaries. So in swing areas, so the independents or Blue Dogs they need to win get Hobsons Choice, vote the more reasonable D candidate or don’t vote. That is the true problem and the main reason O go re-elected.
    As for Charlie, he reminds me of Tony Soprano. He may be a mob boss, but he looked after the neighborhood.

  68. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    Yep…I don’t get it. “Getting it” must be constantly railing against ‘the system’ and ‘the man’ stealing your money, taking your guns, predicting doomsday, etc, etc.

  69. Peace, Love, Dope & Beer says:

    70 – then he should be sending in his Illinois Nazi membership form any day as well.

  70. Brian says:

    “The GOP have done such a good job of purging the centerists out of their own party, they can’t get a moderate through the primaries.”

    Yeah I’d agree with that. I think both sides have become too extreme. As a result, we never get compromise. Just stalemates…

  71. JJ's B.Se says:

    I use asians for the harder stuff. Actually I used top shelf stuff. Granite slabs, oak, porcelin floors, top fixtures. In two weeks when last is done I will shove the before and after on photobucket and put link here. The before and after is fairly amazing.

    Other thing I did was on upper level I worked butt off on demolding, dehumidifying and reusing wood/trim/kickplates etc I was even careful to reuse nails after I wd40’d them. I wanted appearance water damage was a lot less on that floor. My second floor which had over one foot of water in it I manged to fix for under $1,000 bucks, My house is worth more as it appears I had zero water upstairs. Downstairs with six feet of water and 1950s stuff intact it had to go anyhow. Upstairs was nice to begin with.

    I cant wait to do a house flip. I learned so much. I got a home near me that was a BK in July 2012, bank did not sell it in time and it took on six feet of water in Sandy and to boot a few houses down from a registered offender. Bank bought it back for only 279K. I would love to get that house for like 90K. It has at least 150K of damage. But I can do that for like 25k. Also grieve taxes as soon as I buy, then just rent it out forever. Comps are wacked on that block due to heavy heavy damage. A few condemed buildings over there. This house was not condemed since it was unoccupied does not need CO. I would like to buy cash fix on downlow. That way under radar. It will have clean title. None of that messy Fema loss history

    nwnj says:
    January 17, 2013 at 11:28 am

    Huh? I thought you slapped it back together with the help of Home Depot mexicans? Sounds like a shltbox to me.

    “JJ’s B.Se says:
    January 17, 2013 at 9:26 am

    My shitbox is fixed. It is now half a shitbox. My house is now a butterface. Looks good on bottom and not on top. “

  72. Phoenix says:

    [62] nwnj says: Huh? I thought you slapped it back together with the help of Home Depot mexicans? Sounds like a shltbox to me.

    These are the same Mexicans a conventional builder uses to increase his profits/allow for time to play golf. JJ is just cutting out the middleman. End result is the similar quality of construction by the same skill level of workers.

  73. Anon E. Moose says:

    Fab [71];

    The GOP have done such a good job of purging the centerists out of their own party, they can’t get a moderate through the primaries.

    Yep, John McCain, Mitt Romney… the GOP keeps losing because they can’t get a moderate to the top of the ticket. Doesn’t it hurt you to be so ignorant?

  74. joyce says:

    ‘Getting it’ is acknowledging the misconceptions you hold (but can’t get rid of since you’ve believed for them so long) as well as where the true problem lies…

    …and no Fabius, it’s not that. It’s the concentration of power which will always be corrupted, if not immmediately, eventually.

  75. BearsFan says:

    “The fact of the matter is, if mortgage rates are moving towards 8%, the economy is in all likelihood running very strong,”

    – without QE, this would of already played out the opposite.

  76. JJ's B.Se says:

    Most interesting I was “self’contracting” A loophole is a homeowner who is on site and also doing work can hire folks to assist, I need help sheetrocking, I need help putting in toliet sink and said “handiman” operate under my instructions. In this case no permits are required for most work nor insurance or proof of workers comp.

    If I hire a contractor, not only does contractor needs permits so do all the workers. Interesting, I was home for a month while work was happening and a dopey inspector came by and I told him my potion which he agreed with. When he asked if he could look, I no and he said no problem.

    The flip I do I will do same. Just cut out middle man. I love self contracting concept. Even weirder I went shopping with my crew once or twice in wifes truck me in sweatshirt, jeans, boots with foreigners and every place gave me contractors discount and no sale tax, I looked the part.

    Phoenix says:
    January 17, 2013 at 12:29 pm

    [62] nwnj says: Huh? I thought you slapped it back together with the help of Home Depot mexicans? Sounds like a shltbox to me.

    These are the same Mexicans a conventional builder uses to increase his profits/allow for time to play golf. JJ is just cutting out the middleman. End result is the similar quality of construction by the same skill level of workers.

  77. Brian says:

    Moose, by the time John McCain won the primary it was too late. I remember being pissed off that Bush was the nominee. I would have prefered he be the nominee in 2000. That’s what came to mind when I read Fab’s comment.

  78. Libtard in the City says:

    $7 devil tickets??? Where did you see that?

  79. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    GOP would do better if they stopped waving their dicks as the morality police beholden to religous wacko’s litmus tests and became a party of small government (including defense) and constitutional originalists.

    As it stands now each are the party of patronage, with the democrats the better perpatrators at lying, sorry selling their message, on free sh!t

  80. Anon E. Moose says:

    I just got a notice that my mortgage was sold to Fannie. That means I don’t have to pay anymore, right? And I can get a cheap 50-year refi at 1.5%, plus a piece of that big bank settlement slush fund…

  81. Anon E. Moose says:

    Brian [81];

    GWB was no conservative, esp. on spending. He just p!ssed off the all the lefties because he had a bit of religious conviction. Anti-religious bigotry is the last socially acceptable form, and the left bathes in it. I could only imagine the smoke that would rise if someone ever sprinkled holy water on a DU meetup.

  82. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    Lib was busting your nuts, I’m sure they are dirt cheap though for the Marty retirement tour.

  83. Brian says:

    Moose, in 2000, when GWB was the nominee, he was certainly politically right of McCain. And we did not know about his spending problems until after he was well into his presidency….

  84. Brian says:

    Having lived in a tiger cage, McCain might have been less anxious to go to war too…..

  85. Statler Waldorf says:

    “We stopped the fighting [in 1991] on an agreement that Iraq would take steps to assure the world that it would not engage in further aggression and that it would destroy its weapons of mass destruction. It has refused to take those steps. That refusal constitutes a breach of the armistice which renders it void and justifies resumption of the armed conflict.”

    Senator Harry Reid (Democrat, Nevada)
    Addressing the US Senate
    October 9, 2002

  86. joyce says:

    Brian,
    Apparently, you don’t remember the debates. The two candidates agreed so much on most issues.

    And McCain (while he does speak out against torture, is that genuine?) has never hesitated in sending troops, money, weaponry overseas to fight pointless wars. Just like Lindsay Grahm, at least McCain served.

  87. Ernest Money says:

    I cannot think of one politician in either party that doesn’t deserve to be stood against a wall and shot.

  88. Statler Waldorf says:

    “It appears that with the deadline for exile come and gone, Saddam Hussein has chosen to make military force the ultimate weapons inspections enforcement mechanism. If so, the only exit strategy is victory, this is our common mission and the world’s cause.”

    Senator John Kerry (Democrat, Massachusetts)
    Statement on commencement of military strikes against Iraq
    March 20, 2003

  89. freedy says:

    Seems that the Real Estate business is better than the Outdoor Billboard business.
    A new REIT

    CBS Corp. CBS -0.42% is taking steps to divest its outdoor advertising business, disclosing Wednesday that it will convert the North and South American operation into a real-estate investment trust and put its European and Asian outdoor businesses up for sale.
    CBS Outdoor is one of the top outdoor advertising companies in the world, along with JCDecaux SA DEC.FR +4.49% of France and Clear Channel Outdoor HoldingsInc. CCO +0.71% It accounts for about 13% of CBS’s revenue but a lower portion of its profits.
    Shares of CBS rose 8% in after hours trading Wednesday, to $41.02 following the announcement. By splitting off the Americas outdoor business and selling the remaining pieces, CBS could unload assets valued at $5 billion to $6 billion, estimates David Bank of RBC Capital Markets. CBS has a market capitalization of $24 billion.
    Wednesday’s announcement follows repeated hints from CBS Chief ExecutiveLeslie Moonves over the past few months that the outdoor-ad division—which operates billboards and ads that appear in bus stations and subway stations–wasn’t a core part of CBS, which owns the CBS television network, TV stations and radio stations. In December, for instance, Mr. Moonves told an investor conference there “are parts of the company that we want to build, that we want to expand. Outdoor is not that.”
    In an interview Wednesday, CBS Chief Financial Officer Joseph Ianniello reiterated the point, saying, “We are a content company. We’ve said the asset is noncore.”
    A REIT is a common vehicle for holding various kinds of income-producing real estate, including shopping centers and office buildings. CBS plans to place physical structures like billboards into a REIT, similar to a transaction announced last year by Lamar Advertising Co. LAMR +0.73%
    REITs offer tax advantages: They largely avoid corporate taxes as long as they pay 90% of their taxable income to investors through dividends. “Real estate businesses trade at higher multiples than media companies,” said Mr. Ianniello.
    Once the American outdoor business is converted to a REIT, it will be separated from CBS, possibly as a spin-off to shareholders. Mr. Ianniello said the specific avenue for separating the REIT hadn’t been decided.
    Speculation that CBS was open to a sale of the outdoor business has circulated for months. Last June The Wall Street Journal reported that bankers were gauging interest in the business, after Mr. Moonves had noted the operation was noncore.
    Mr. Ianniello said the company never put the outdoor business up for sale formally but has been approached by suitors who offered prices CBS considered too low. “People wanted to have meetings and the numbers didn’t make sense,” he said. “People wanted to…lowball.” Industry executives said that CBS’s price expectations were too high.
    As an advertising category, outdoor is projected to grow slowly over the next few years, and to lose share in total ad spending. ZenithOptimedia projects that global spending on outdoor will rise to $35.9 billion by 2015, up from $32.28 billion in 2012, although outdoor’s share of total ad spending will drop to 6.3% from 6.6% in that period.
    Mr. Ianniello also said the European and Asian divisions would be “smaller for people to bite off” when sold separately from the Americas business.
    While CBS has begun the process of creating a REIT, analysts say buyers could still come after the Americas business. “This plan sets a bar,” Mr. Bank said. “It’s no longer a matter of throwing in a low bid and seeing if they accept it.”
    CBS said it would ask the Internal Revenue Service for permission to create a REIT in the first quarter of 2013 and could complete the transaction in 2014.

  90. Brian says:

    The point is Joyce, I haven’t felt like there’s been anyone in the whitehouse, or even a candidate for the presidency…..that I have much confidence in for as long as I can remember.

  91. joyce says:

    If we’re only counting the R’s and D’s … I completely agree.

  92. Libtard in the City says:

    Me three. And party affiliation really doesn’t matter. DC is such a crock. Obama’s AWB speech was great TV yesterday. His handpicked multicultural panel of children was almost as beautiful as Bush Sr.’s planned crack cocaine bust in front of the white house. Baa Baa.

  93. Anon E. Moose says:

    Waldorf [90, 93];

    How dare you! Those statements were supposed to have been flushed down the memory hold by the left wing’s media organs!

  94. JJ's B.Se says:

    America is multicultural, I know one of the kids who went, the third grader from long island she is actually pretty nice girl .

    Libtard in the City says:
    January 17, 2013 at 2:01 pm

    Me three. And party affiliation really doesn’t matter. DC is such a crock. Obama’s AWB speech was great TV yesterday. His handpicked multicultural panel of children was almost as beautiful as Bush Sr.’s planned crack cocaine bust in front of the white house. Baa Baa.

  95. Juice Box says:

    Re: 90 – Statler short memory? The Classifed NIE report on Iraq? Testmony to the Senate that they were infact reconstituting their WMD programs? I don’t expect that Congress will ever go on a fact finding mission into a hot zone, they rely on the CIA for intel, right or wrong.

    Who could also forget the attempted impeachment Cheney over the manipulated intel?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/24/AR2007042401542.html

  96. Libtard in the City says:

    “America is multicultural, ”

    Not my point JJ. The whole staging of every political event just turns my stomach.

  97. JJ's B.Se says:

    Primary issuance in the leveraged finance markets remains strong despite uncertainty around U.S. debt ceiling negotiations…. High yield investors have seemingly become comfortable once again with risk, underscored by easy access for issuers. Investor confidence has been supported by decent economic and earnings reports, stronger credit profiles and a benign bond default at remain around 2% (we project the U.S. high yield default rate to be around 2% in 2013). High yield investors poured in $1.1 billion into high yield retail funds the week of Jan. 9, 2013, reversing a four week trend of outflows and further evidence of a risk on investor environment.

    Junk Bond/Stock Rally!!!!!! Risk On

  98. Anon E. Moose says:

    Brian [88];

    when GWB was the nominee, he was certainly politically right of McCain.

    And GWB won, twice. What does that say for Fab’s revisionist history that the GOP loses because some supposed right-wing inquisition results in the nomination of nothing but fire-breathing extremists?

  99. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    would have been better if they were all maimed brown kids from foreign lands. Cause guns bad for american children, drones good for dirt eating brown kids.

    Lib to borrow your line Baa Baa!

  100. JJ's B.Se says:

    HA HA I recall in early 2002 I looked at a dumpy house priced at 299K, Realtor told me buy it as it will be the last house I ever see for sale in my town priced under 300K.

    I said main was she right cause two years later the cheapest house was over 400K and houses similar to that one was selling for $525

    Then around a year ago I saw houses selling for like 290K and thought guess she was wrong.

    Now similar fixer uppers post Sandy are going for 100K.

    Detroit some houses were selling for like 1x rent roll on a regular basis.

    Maybe homes have a lot more to fall than you think. Really around 150K is the most anyhome is worth, given how high property taxes and insurance have become.

  101. JJ's B.Se says:

    You are comparing shooting son of sam or charles manson as a child to shooting a regular kid.

    Painhrtz – Not like you can dust for vomit says:
    January 17, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    would have been better if they were all maimed brown kids from foreign lands. Cause guns bad for american children, drones good for dirt eating brown kids.

    Lib to borrow your line Baa Baa!

  102. Ernest Money says:

    Clearly, the value of a Pakistani tribal child is far less than that of an Amerikan child.

  103. Ernest Money says:

    Let’s test for the Son of Sam gene, and euthanize all kids who carry it.

  104. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    Money – Some animals are more equal than others

  105. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    Okay, I’m back. Whaddimiss?

  106. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    Oh, never mind.

    Dope, if it sends the message I intend to convey, that this administration is driving some moderates to the right, then I consider it $35 well spent.

    Joyce, could you clarify? I’m not sure what I’m supposed to reply to, JFPO or Texas.

  107. The Original NJ ExPat says:

    About 10 years ago someone who should know told me a McMansion with 3 car garage only costs Toll brothers $125K to build, sans appliances.

    Maybe homes have a lot more to fall than you think. Really around 150K is the most anyhome is worth, given how high property taxes and insurance have become.

  108. Lincoln78 says:

    Hi all –

    A reader of the boards since the late ‘aughts, been laying low, saving $ and renting while the bubble deflated.

    I currently rent in Hoboken and, despite its warts, enjoy living there. Right now, I’m in a situation where I can put $40-$60k down on an apartment (ones in the $400-$450 range are appealing). I’m a conservative investor (CDs) for many reasons and have about $125k in my 401k (in addition to the $40-$60k in CDs). My rent is $2200 and my girlfriend is planning to moving in with me (she pays $1700 for her place), so monthly payment isn’t much of an issue. With interest/mortgage/tax rates the way they are, it’s becoming more appealing for me to buy.

    My reason for the post: I’ve read different pieces about borrowing from your 401k to get a 20% down payment. Thoughts/experiences from this crew about doing that (vs. PMI, piggyback loan) would be valued. Any other info sources you could point me to would also be appreciated.

    Any other sources of info for this first-time buyer would be appreciated as well. Thanks all.

  109. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    My rent is $2200 and my girlfriend is planning to moving in with me (she pays $1700 for her place), so monthly payment isn’t much of an issue.

    Buy at your current rent including PITI. Do not count on the girlfriends salary even if you intend to marry her, and if you do even more reason to buy at your current rates. She will want to move to the suburbs or somewhere less city like.

    If I were you keep renting and socking away cash. What is the rush? Your technically single, housing is still volatile in some regards, and the current inventory kind of sucks from what I’m hearing. Plus you give up your mobility should your job situation change. If you really want to buy, get a a multi which can provide further benefits down the line and is something you can maintain when you get another residence.

  110. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    Never take money out of your 401K for a depreciating assest.

  111. JJ's B.Se says:

    I read somewhere that Hoboken single men hook up the most of any city. Yet you want your girl friend to move in and then get saddled with a mortgage. Cover yourself with honey and lay on a fireants nest it is cheaper.

    All kidding aside, go ahead buy a place, put it in your name alone and if GF is willing to pay you rent which goes towards equity why not.

    Lincoln78 says:
    January 17, 2013 at 3:38 pm

    Hi all –

    A reader of the boards since the late ‘aughts, been laying low, saving $ and renting while the bubble deflated.

    I currently rent in Hoboken and, despite its warts, enjoy living there. Right now, I’m in a situation where I can put $40-$60k down on an apartment (ones in the $400-$450 range are appealing). I’m a conservative investor (CDs) for many reasons and have about $125k in my 401k (in addition to the $40-$60k in CDs). My rent is $2200 and my girlfriend is planning to moving in with me (she pays $1700 for her place), so monthly payment isn’t much of an issue. With interest/mortgage/tax rates the way they are, it’s becoming more appealing for me to buy.

    My reason for the post: I’ve read different pieces about borrowing from your 401k to get a 20% down payment. Thoughts/experiences from this crew about doing that (vs. PMI, piggyback loan) would be valued. Any other info sources you could point me to would also be appreciated.

    Any other sources of info for this first-time buyer would be appreciated as well. Thanks all.

  112. nwnj says:

    No, sorry, it’s all about the detail. You can’t do anything resembling good work in a few days using the Mexicans who are unemployed in the midst of a major renovation boom using home depot stock. Ain’t happening.

    “Phoenix says:

    These are the same Mexicans a conventional builder uses to increase his profits/allow for time to play golf. JJ is just cutting out the middleman. End result is the similar quality of construction by the same skill level of workers.”

  113. Libtard in the City says:

    I’d try to make my GF buy the new place. Don’t borrow from your 401K.

  114. SEO VPS says:

    Use some of these tools to help your site with google http://bit.ly/zwfekD use promo code: NEWYEAR2013

  115. JJ's B.Se says:

    I used high end workers and high end material. Just I aint in Jersey so things are cheaper. For instance down in Flushing their is a whole section of asian run warehouses off LIE> Tons of high end stuff. Tiles that cost a fortune, name brands, etc. Rent is cheap workers get paid cheap and savings is passed on . I did a front loading washer dryer, had carpenter make frame with nice legs than put a huge granite slab on top to fold laundry. Cash on barrel head, brought home in a minivan my worker installed. Place did not even have heat or a bathroom. Meanwhile tile places on LI are big fancy place with fancy looking womens salesmen. Why am I paying for that.

    The hardest and best workers by far are some of the asian electricians floor guys etc. They dont speak english but man do they work. They also in asian culture have to wear many hats. My kitchen killed me american style. Wait for floor guy, wait for sheetrock guy, wait for plumber, wait for electrican while contractor is sucking up cash and not passing along savings.

    I had the two guys sun up to sun down at house six days a week for 9 weeks. And they brought in plumbers, carpenters when needed like when they put staircase in or remove oil tank, or put in sewer line. Near end they were working 7 days a week. The commented on the lazy american workers next door. Working only five days a week ten hours a day. Crazy that americans are so lazy. I got these guys on a sunday bring four guys and put in a 14 hour day. That is 56 hours of work in one day. I also like no OT in asian culture. They say I charge you this for four days work, it turns out to be four 18 hour days they apolgize for being at house so long and no charge you extra.

    I would say Japanese, European, Chinese,American, Mexican in terms of quality by race.

    It is also hard to get detail with Americans. My American kitchen guy would charge you to do it over. The asians just keep doing it till it is how you like it no extra charge.

    My friend way out in Jersey is trying to have work done and it is all local guys who have wifes and kids, mortgages, college tuition and they charge a fortune. They also are noisy sobs.

    nwnj says:
    January 17, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    No, sorry, it’s all about the detail. You can’t do anything resembling good work in a few days using the Mexicans who are unemployed in the midst of a major renovation boom using home depot stock. Ain’t happening.

    “Phoenix says:

    These are the same Mexicans a conventional builder uses to increase his profits/allow for time to play golf. JJ is just cutting out the middleman. End result is the similar quality of construction by the same skill level of workers.”

  116. grim says:

    Most interesting I was “self’contracting” A loophole is a homeowner who is on site and also doing work can hire folks to assist, I need help sheetrocking, I need help putting in toliet sink and said “handiman” operate under my instructions. In this case no permits are required for most work nor insurance or proof of workers comp.

    If I hire a contractor, not only does contractor needs permits so do all the workers. Interesting, I was home for a month while work was happening and a dopey inspector came by and I told him my potion which he agreed with. When he asked if he could look, I no and he said no problem.

    This is completely incorrect.

  117. Mike says:

    Ernest 92 Sarah Palin now that would be a waste

  118. Mike says:

    Me Love You Long Time

  119. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    She looka lika man

  120. POS cape says:

    113 Lincoln78:

    I did it but got tax penalty for early withdrawal of 401K.

  121. joyce says:

    I’m stunned.

    grim says:
    January 17, 2013 at 4:25 pm
    Most interesting I was “self’contracting” A loophole is a homeowner who is on site and also doing work can hire folks to assist, I need help sheetrocking, I need help putting in toliet sink and said “handiman” operate under my instructions. In this case no permits are required for most work nor insurance or proof of workers comp.

    If I hire a contractor, not only does contractor needs permits so do all the workers. Interesting, I was home for a month while work was happening and a dopey inspector came by and I told him my potion which he agreed with. When he asked if he could look, I no and he said no problem.

    This is completely incorrect.

  122. joyce says:

    127

    POS cape,

    Did you withdraw from the 401K or borrow from it? If the latter, I think there should not have been a penalty.

  123. Lincoln78 says:

    Thanks Painhrtz/JJ… I’m 34 so my days chasing tail are pretty over. The smearing myself in honey made me chuckle though. Given the number of airheads in Hoboken, however, I’m kinda glad i’m out of the game.

    As for being in Hoboken, the girlie and I have talked about settling down at least for a few years in town… probably a 5-7 year horizon at least.

    From what I’ve read thus far about borrowing (not withdrawing) from the 401k, I’ve come to believe you essentially “pay yourself” back with interest. Seems much smarter than paying PMI or interest to the banks. Only downside would be if I leave my job (not a foreseeable issue for the near/mid term), I’d have to payback in full.

    I’m taking into account mortgage rates, investment interest rates, tax rates (personal and municipal), (lack of) writeoffs, appreciation rate (I’m assuming 0-1% in the next 5-7 years on RE to be conservative)… anything else I should consider?

  124. Anon E. Moose says:

    You can w/d up to $10k (each spouse, if married) without penalty from a 401k or IRA for purchase of a ‘first’ home. ‘First’ home is pretty loosely defined as not having owned a home in the last 3 years. Still have to pay taxes on the w/d as ordinary income, presuming the contribution was tax-exempt (most are).

    I took a fully conforming note with 20% down, and money is fungible, so in my case it paid the closing costs, the movers, and some needed new furniture.

    You can also w/d any amount of contribution (but not earnings) from a Roth account without tax or penalty (because you already paid tax on the money once). I decided that money was better left working considering the benefit of tax-free withdrawals.

    Loans against a 401k account are up to the discretion of the plan administrator. The biggest gotcha there is that if you separate from the company before the loan is paid back, any loan balance it is considered an early withdrawal with taxes and penalties due unless repaid in full in 30-60 (guessing) days.

  125. Anon E. Moose says:

    Lincoln [129];

    [401k loan] “pay yourself” back with interest

    That’s instead of earning a market return on your principal; and paying the interest with after-tax dollars v. paying tax-deductible mortgage interest or tax-deductible PMI.

  126. freedy says:

    Young People Paying Off Card Debt More Slowly

    By ANN CARRNS | New York Times – 5 hours ago

    Younger Americans not only borrow heavily on their credit cards, but they repay the debt at slower rates than previous generations, new research from Ohio State University finds.
    The findings suggest this bleak situation: the typical young credit card holder who keeps a balance on the card will die in debt to credit card companies, said Lucia Dunn, an economics professor at Ohio State who was a co-author of the study with Sarah Jiang, manager of credit and business strategy at Capital One Financial in McLean, Va.
    If such behavior persists, Professor Dunn said, the country may eventually be faced with a financial crisis among elderly people who can’t pay off their credit cards. “They’re paying it back at much slower rate than previous generations,” she said in a telephone interview.
    The study, published in the January issue of the journal Economic Inquiry, is based on two large, long-term monthly surveys conducted by Ohio State University, including one that includes not only borrowing data but also payoff data, which hasn’t previously been available to most researchers. The data allowed the researchers to more precisely estimate when Americans will be able to pay off their credit card debts.
    The researchers combined the data to obtain information for 13 years, from 1997 to 2009. They examined respondents from 18 to 85 years of age, and had a final sample size of 32,542 people.
    The findings suggest that someone born from 1980 to 1984 has credit card debt substantially higher than debt held by the previous two generations: on average, about $5,000 more than his or her parents at the same stage of life, and about $8,000 more than his or her grandparents.
    Professor Dunn said there were several reasons why younger generations have higher credit card debt. Credit is more readily available, for one thing, and attitudes toward debt have changed. “It’s a lot more socially acceptable to have debt and go into bankruptcy,” she said.
    The results also suggest that younger people are paying off their debt more slowly. The study estimates that the younger borrowers’ payoff rate is 24 percentage points lower than their parents’ and about 77 percentage points lower than their grandparents’ rate.
    Younger people now also have much higher levels of student loan debt than previous generations, she noted, which makes it harder to pay off card debt.
    But the study also offered some hope, in that it found that increasing the minimum required monthly payment on credit cards spurs borrowers to not only meet the minimum, but to pay off substantially more, possibly eliminating their debt years earlier.
    Professor Dunn said higher minimum payments may provide a sort of “jolt” to card holders, spurring them to pay off their debt. Legislative action, like the 2005 Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act, has led to an increase in minimum payments for cardholders But Professor Dunn said the findings suggest regulators should press card companies further on minimum payments.
    Would higher minimum payments motivate you to pay off your credit card debt? Or would they force you into default?

  127. Fabius Maximus says:

    #77 Moose

    Maybe JMcC circa 2000 might make that cut, but the 2008 version ran to the right. as did Mitt. McC in 2008 threw his reputaion under the bus when he reversed all his previous positions to shore up the base. I think the worst was when he threw away his environmental record to get the oil companies campaign cash (O got the workers). He also voted against his own Immigration bill.
    Mitt never made a move to the center. He stuck with far right positions and his Immigration proposal which was just slightly right of Genghis Khan.

  128. Painhrtz - Not like you can dust for vomit says:

    Lincoln look at it from this angle. 3900 bucks in outlays for rent. 2 cable/internet bills depending on building maybe 2 sets of utility bills. Let’s say you go with her place because it is cheaper so your rent goes from 2200 to 850. Net gain 1450 your end 850 hers. Combine utilities net gain 200.total 2500 bucks just by combing households let’s be realistic and say you both save a grand in combined account 24k per year for 5 years 120k, 7 years 168k.

    Still want to buy that house?

  129. Fabius Maximus says:

    #55 Lib,
    If you are following Eddie Rays meaningless membership protest, don’t forget to go the Fat Wallet route.

    http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/1251281/

  130. joyce says:

    Fabius,
    Is it possible at least a few people saw through the charade of what they said and looked at what they had done in the past?… (and deemed them unacceptable (like Romney banning weapons as gov)

    [ps. I hate Romney… too]

    Fabius Maximus says:
    January 17, 2013 at 5:35 pm
    #77 Moose

    Maybe JMcC circa 2000 might make that cut, but the 2008 version ran to the right. as did Mitt. McC in 2008 threw his reputaion under the bus when he reversed all his previous positions to shore up the base. I think the worst was when he threw away his environmental record to get the oil companies campaign cash (O got the workers). He also voted against his own Immigration bill.
    Mitt never made a move to the center. He stuck with far right positions and his Immigration proposal which was just slightly right of Genghis Khan.

  131. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [135] gluteus,

    A lot of discount NRA memberships are scams. But you knew that, didn’t you?

  132. yome says:

    3
    113 lincoln

    My 401k lets you borrow upto 50% of funds. Todays rate is 5%. Interest payments goes to 401k. Its like paying yourself the interest with your after tax money.

    First time homebuyers can withraw money from 401k without 10% penalty just pay the regular taxes. I red somewhere, above 55 they let you withraw without penalty not sure about that

  133. Fabius Maximus says:

    #136 joyce

    If that was the case John Kerry would have won. But JK created a new political standard where reversals of positions are political poison. It is hard to defend yourself when you can be found on both sides of an arguement.

  134. Punch My Ticket says:

    Nom:Tax :: JJ:Sex

    More than a little disappointed if your tax insights are merely half entertaining fiction.

  135. yome says:

    My wife borrowed from her 401k years ago. Her hospital closed and left her 401k with Diversified. She did not have to pay it back when she left. She has another 401k with the new employer and kept diversified 401k

  136. Comrade Nom Deplume: To Tax what JJ is to Sex. says:

    [140] punch

    Just like sex, teasers are free but you pay for the real thing.

  137. chicagofinance says:

    …and what about the loan? If you separate from service with an outstanding balance, you have 60 days from the event to repay the loan. If that failed to happen, then you recognize the income with a 10% penalty (if applicable). Any other action (or inaction) would be conisdered tax evasion.

    yome says:
    January 17, 2013 at 6:10 pm
    My wife borrowed from her 401k years ago. Her hospital closed and left her 401k with Diversified. She did not have to pay it back when she left. She has another 401k with the new employer and kept diversified 401k

  138. chicagofinance says:

    to add…..Diversified was responsible for issuing a 1099-R for the defaulted loan in the year of occurrence……if they failed, then you could get away with it….but the IRS should have been notified.

  139. Brian says:

    Honey and fire ants sounds less painful too.

  140. yome says:

    Chi, she just kept on paying the quarterly payments until she paid it off. She made another loan wuth diversified while wirking with a different hospital .

  141. yome says:

    No defaulted loan. She s been with a different hospital for 7 years. They have Fidelity at this hospital. She is carrying 2 401k accounts. Any illegality?

  142. joyce says:

    Or maybe the problem was that John Kerry sounded a little too much like bush. You dont remember the debates? Kerry didnt even lie about wanting to end the wars unlike Obama

    Fabius Maximus says:
    January 17, 2013 at 6:04 pm
    #136 joyce

    If that was the case John Kerry would have won. But JK created a new political standard where reversals of positions are political poison. It is hard to defend yourself when you can be found on both sides of an arguement.

  143. Anon E. Moose says:

    Nom [137];

    That was my first thought, too, but the domain “nra-2013.org” appears to be registered to the NRA.

  144. Anon E. Moose says:

    ChiFi [144];

    What’s the logic of making the loan due on separation? I understand calling it a withdrawal if there is a default on the loan, but if you’re paying the loan back as agreed, why treat it differently based on who your employer is at any given moment? Just another (if minor) thing that ties people to employers that they might otherwise leave.

  145. Anon E. Moose says:

    Fab [139];

    If that was the case John Kerry would have won. But JK created a new political standard where reversals of positions are political poison. It is hard to defend yourself when you can be found on both sides of an arguement.

    Are you seriously arguing that changing positions is a political liability only because the GWB & the GOP made it so in 2004?

    Hint: history didn’t start yesterday.

  146. Fabius Maximus says:

    Joyce/Moose

    This was the ad that finished Kerrys run.
    http://www.livingroomcandidate.org/commercials/2004/windsurfing

  147. joyce says:

    Nice job, as always, in not addressing any of the previous points made.

  148. Juice Box says:

    re; #134 – Lincoln78 – We combined our incomes and lives then saved a ton of money. When I met my wife she was cash negative, is that the case for you? We now have two kids and are looking to move out of our Hoboken rental. Our choice was to live together, then get married, then have kids and it has has worked out well. We skipped the housing bubble and can choose to live anywhere. Awesome credit combined with a more comfortable liquid/cash position means we can buy that castle with the white picket fence. I would not invest in Hoboken. There are a few here that can attest most don’t stay in Hoboken, most families (people with children) I have known over the years leave and it is sad that they do. I would think that the 70 percent rental out of all housing units would tell the story. If you are in it for the the long run then stay if your plan is leave then rent, buying a condo these days can be a loosing proposition.

  149. Fabius Maximus says:

    #154 Joyce

    People should look back at a persons previous record and judge them on that. Yes, fine and if people looked past the attack ads, Kerry would have been elected. That ad was political genius.

    Kerry and Bush sounded the same. While two Yaleies in a room may sound the same the platforms they were running on were completely different.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4448630/ns/politics/t/bush-vs-kerry-glance/
    While people may dissagree with the source it details a lot of differences in the platforms.

    So what pomits am I not addressing?

  150. joyce says:

    Kerry should have won based on his record, or only that compared to Bush?

    And if doesn’t matter on what they run on… did Bush follow through on his no nation building smaller govt platform? did Obama follow through on ending the warrantless wiretapping and restoring other lost liberties?

    You said, “JK created a new political standard where reversals of positions are political poison.” Then you provided an ad that you say very much hurt Kerry’s campaign. You didn’t address Moose’s point; you’re claiming the act of contradicting oneself being hurtful as having originated in 2004… was the TV also invented in 2004?

  151. joyce says:

    And if doesnt matter = And IT doesnt matter

  152. relo says:

    44:

    JJ is Lennay Kekua.

  153. Fabius Maximus says:

    #157 Joyce

    You are confusing two different concepts. Failure to deliver and getting caught on both sides of an arguement.

    Failure to deliver is when O says I will sign an order or day one saying “close Gitmo”. The follow up question should have been “Will that close it?” If you ask O today would you like Gimo closed tomorrow, he would say “Yes” and if it was a perfect world, he would admit he can’t get over the barriers to make that happen. Mitt had the same BS with China is a currency manipulator. Sign the EO on day one that will make no difference.

    Now geting caught on both sides of an issue is a differnt matter. For that I put up John Mc Cain and his immigration debacle. Steps up and says that you don’t need to secure the borders before you deal with the issue of the kids path to citizenship, but them puts up border security as an issue. CoSponsors the DREAM act but then disowns it when it come s to the vote. While he had his reasons, he can’t step away from the duality. There are some issues where “A little bit pregnant” won’t wash.

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