Why do people own? Why do people rent?

Posted on May 1, 2013 by grim

Insightful poll by Gallup, hat tip to Ritholtz:

U.S. Homeowners’ Reasons for Owning More Than Financial

This entry was posted in Demographics, Economics, National Real Estate. Bookmark the permalink.

140 Responses to Why do people own? Why do people rent?

  1. grim says:
    May 1, 2013 at 7:30 pm

    Evidence that the NAR brainwashing campaign is nearly complete?

  2. grim says:
    May 1, 2013 at 7:33 pm

    The marked difference in responses is shocking, no? Why is are these response types so wildly different?

    Many of reasons on the Ownership case are applicable to the rental case, some need to be slightly adjusted to fit the different scenario, but would be equally as applicable.

  3. Scrapple n'Ricin says:
    May 1, 2013 at 8:15 pm

    When I start building bombs, I’d much rather do it in a rental.

  4. Scrapple n'Ricin says:
    May 1, 2013 at 8:23 pm

    One unexpected detonation could ruin my art collection.

  5. grim says:
    May 1, 2013 at 8:32 pm

    Had you pegged as more of a molotov cocktail kinda guy

  6. Essex says:
    May 1, 2013 at 8:41 pm

    I have four dogs. Rentals are not really an option.

  7. Scrapple n'Ricin says:
    May 1, 2013 at 8:45 pm

    grim (5)-

    I am…when the mood strikes.

  8. Juice Box says:
    May 1, 2013 at 9:06 pm

    My main reason for becoming a home owner AKA renter from the bank is because I will be saving several thousand dollars a month. It is getting really expensive to live anywhere in or near the city especially if you have kids. I am still saving money but no where near the amount we used to save and invest, and I don’t want my kids educated by the mooks in this town.

  9. grim says:
    May 1, 2013 at 9:42 pm

    From HousingWire:

    Mel Watt unqualified to lead FHFA

    The president’s reported pick of Congressman Mel Watt, D-N.C., to lead the Federal Housing Finance Agency is likely to be stalled by the simple fact that Watt is not qualified for the job based on a job description created by Republicans and Democrats back in 2008.

    Yes, that’s right. Forget the confirmation hearing, he doesn’t even have the right resume, a former policymaker said in an interview with HousingWire.

    Mark Calabria, a director of financial regulation studies at the Cato Institute, and a staffer on the Senate Banking Committee during the creation of the FHFA, says both parties created the top position at the FHFA with a financial regulator in mind, not a politician with ideology.

    “There are statutory requirements for a director,” he said. “It requires you to have financial regulatory management experience.”

    He added, “I am pretty sure it’s not going to be an easy nomination. Watt would politicize the agency in a way that in my opinion would harm the agency.”

    But let’s go back to the part where he’s not qualified.

    I pulled the statute from 2008.

    The Housing and Economic Recovery Act of 2008 created the FHFA as the GSE conservator that it is today and created a job description for the director.

    The law states the director has to “have a demonstrated understanding of financial management or oversight, and have a demonstrated understanding of capital markets, including the mortgage securities markets and housing finance.”

  10. Fabius Maximus says:
    May 1, 2013 at 9:47 pm

    I don’t think lack of money for a down payment should be tied to Can’t afford to buy. Outside the 5% down mortgage, using yesterdays question, if Grandma passess on and leaves you 200K, that does not mean you can afford 20% down on the million dollar home.

  11. Fabius Maximus says:
    May 1, 2013 at 9:49 pm

    “Just one of those crazy accidents,”
    http://m.upi.com/story/UPI-4271367413615/

  12. Juice Box says:
    May 1, 2013 at 10:01 pm

    re #9 – Grim – qualifications? He owned a nursing home until a few years ago. Perfect model for FHFA leadership.

  13. Juice Box says:
    May 1, 2013 at 10:14 pm

    RE#10 – FAB fog a mirror will be back.

  15. joyce says:
    May 1, 2013 at 10:22 pm

    If you’re implying that the fact that the economy was transformed to 70-80% service-based (and 70%+ consumer spending)… than anything not aimed at rectifying that is tilting at windmills and completely short-sighted. Fixing a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself is always doomed to fail.

    [FYI “Intervention should be counted in jobs created” will just lead to 1 guy digging a hole with 3 standing around watching him work. Oh wait, we do that now.]

    73.Fabius Maximus says:
    May 1, 2013 at 9:20 pm
    There is one big point that is missed in all the Krugman bashing and that economic intervention is the only way out. In the past 30years there has been the Thatcher and Reagan big drive from manufacturing to a 70-80% service based economy. The economy is driven by consumption so when it drops the only one big enough to bridge the gap is the government. Krugmans argument is that it needs to be orders of magnitudes greater than it has been since 2008. Now I disagree with him on that. I don’t think the numbers have to be that high, it is more of a need to make sure you are using the intervention wisely. “Shovel ready” was a nice idea, but it was always set to fail as the number of people employed building a road today vs, building the Eisenhower freeways is a lot less. While Infrastructure upgrades are needed, Intervention should be counted in jobs created, not dollars spent.

    So the question is, if not intervention how else do you handle this? Scorched earth is not really feasible we know how that ends and its not pretty. Intervention gives you a chance to slow the fall and try and control the landing.

    Ragner, before you go off on Thatcher’s great economic turnaround. her economic miracle can be summed up in one diagram.
    http://tinyurl.com/c7954h9

  16. joyce says:
    May 1, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    should have said:

    If you’re implying that the fact that the economy was transformed to 70-80% service-based (and 70%+ consumer spending) IS A BAD THING… than anything not aimed at rectifying that is tilting at windmills and completely short-sighted. Fixing a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself is always doomed to fail.

  17. Brian says:
    May 1, 2013 at 10:40 pm

    Just curious. Where are you getting the 70 – 80 percent number from? I wonder if this is true or a misconception……

    Fabius Maximus says:
    May 1, 2013 at 9:20 pm

    There is one big point that is missed in all the Krugman bashing and that economic intervention is the only way out. In the past 30years there has been the Thatcher and Reagan big drive from manufacturing to a 70-80% service based economy

  18. The Original NJ ExPat says:
    May 1, 2013 at 11:14 pm

    Q1. “Why do people own commit some or all savings for a down payment and take out a mortgage for the balance to have access to a property? ”
    A1. Often because someone convinced them that they should or a mortgage broker told them they can. There are some good reasons too, like not being uprooted by onerous rent hikes or title changes in rental housing, but mostly because someone told them they can or should.

    Q2. “Why do people rent?
    A2. For mobility, flexibility, and preservation of or preservation of ability to add to current savings and investments. Also because of lack of savings or investments. Also because of no credit or substandard credit. Also because they were ill-advised in taking out a mortgage previously (See Q1 & A1 above)

  19. Fabius Maximus says:
    May 1, 2013 at 11:29 pm

    #14 Joyce

    I tip my hat to him for not pulling the trigger. A responsible gun owner in control. But for that case, the numbers in the other direction are just staggering.

    http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/04/10/1844121/4-accidental-toddler-shootings/?mobile=nc

  21. Fabius Maximus says:
    May 1, 2013 at 11:36 pm

    “If you’re implying that the fact that the economy was transformed to 70-80% service-based (and 70%+ consumer spending) IS A BAD THING”

    Yes it is a bad thing!

    One of the strengths of the US was self sufficiency. It could meet almost all the needs of the population though domestic output. The US is rich in mining resources such as mining and agriculture. As you ship manufacturing overseas and lettuce production to Mexico. that balance shifts.

    There is a big difference between “Made in America” and “Assembled in America”

  22. Fabius Maximus says:
    May 1, 2013 at 11:41 pm

    #17 Brian

    I have come across it in various places over the years. Forgive the Wiki source.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Gdp-and-labour-force-by-sector.png

    This would be interesting is they could factor in GDP to Debt as a marker of world economic health.

  23. The Original NJ ExPat says:
    May 1, 2013 at 11:46 pm

    Saving several thousand dollars a month but ending up with less savings sounds like the way my wife “saves” money by buying stuff on sale. My definition of saving several thousand dollars a month equates to somewhere around $40K extra per year is reflected in one of my brokerage statements.

    Juice Box says:
    May 1, 2013 at 9:06 pm
    My main reason for becoming a home owner AKA renter from the bank is because I will be saving several thousand dollars a month. It is getting really expensive to live anywhere in or near the city especially if you have kids. I am still saving money but no where near the amount we used to save and invest, and I don’t want my kids educated by the mooks in this town.

  24. Juice Box says:
    May 2, 2013 at 12:26 am

    ExPat – 40k a year is chicken scratch in these parts. If you were in my shoes you would be in awe like me. The amount for foreign $$ invading is spectacular to witness. Russian, French, Chinese and South American cash flows like water around here. I told the tale recently on an iBanker who flipped a 3br for a 400K profit over 2 years. It’s nuts in Hoboken and this is secondary to NYC.

    Come by my kids school or the local parks. English is the second language.

  25. grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 5:40 am

    A2. For mobility, flexibility, and preservation of or preservation of ability to add to current savings and investments.

    Well, that’s exactly my point. The survey was open ended, and it doesn’t look like anyone provided that answer. Nobody answered “Renting makes more financial sense for me.”

  26. grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 5:46 am

    Quite a coincidence, no?

    From the Hill:

    CBO report: Principal reductions could save billions

    A new report out Wednesday could give Democrats more muscle in their push for mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to reduce principal mortgage balances.

    The Congressional Budget Office’s (CBO) analysis shows that providing loan reductions for borrowers underwater on their mortgages through the Home Affordable Modification Program (HAMP) could save taxpayers billions of dollars, avoid thousands of unnecessary defaults and provide a boost to the economy.

    “Rather than implement these programs years ago when their benefits were obvious, ideologues ignored this evidence and harmed our nation as a result,” said House Overnight and Government Reform Committee ranking member Elijah Cummings (D-Md.).

    “I hope this report provides a new opportunity to anchor our nation’s housing policy in facts rather than partisan politics.”

  27. grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 5:47 am

    I think I’ll wait to see what happens with the Watt nomination before I refinance, I don’t want to miss out on any government cheese.

  28. grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 6:38 am

    From the Times of Trenton:

    Editorial: Flood of N.J. property tax appeals exposes a deeply flawed system

    An annual quandary has again ensnared New Jersey municipalities — this time with a new layer of complications courtesy of Sandy.

    April 1 was the deadline for property owners to contest their taxes through appeals. Though the numbers have not yet been tallied, the signs augur a tidal wave headed for municipal finances.

    As The Star-Ledger’s Tom DePoto and Stephen Stirling reported Sunday, about 116,000 tax appeals were filed by April 1, 2012, the highest number in more than two decades. More than 81,000 were settled out of court or succeeded, resulting in nearly $5 billion in reduced assessments in municipalities throughout the state.

    While property owners unfairly taxed due to roller-coaster fluctuations in values congratulate themselves on getting a fair deal, their win can be a loss for their town.

    Because the reduction in property tax revenue comes directly out of municipal budgets, the process begins to resemble an Escher Mobius strip. As communities pay out millions in tax refunds, the loss of revenue must be made up, which ultimately means higher taxes.

    Municipal officials, who have had enough of holding the porous bag, are urging a change in the system that would have county governments and school districts share in the appeal payouts because their budgets, also, are funded with property taxes.

  29. DL says:
    May 2, 2013 at 6:39 am

    My reason for buying not on that list. I want a house
    1. that (hopefully) no one can force me out of
    2. that I can decorate/renovate/enlarge to suit my tastes
    3. that will give me more disposable income out of monthly cash flow (due to large down payment (80%))

  30. Scrapple n'Ricin says:
    May 2, 2013 at 6:48 am

    Of course Mel Watt is unqualified for the job. This is how you take the next step when you want to completely implode the pre-designated financial garbage cans, aka Phony, Fraudy, FHA.

    We will be roaming the country in armed packs. Don’t need no stinking mortgage for that.

  31. Scrapple n'Ricin says:
    May 2, 2013 at 6:49 am

    DL (29)-

    You should be more worried about capital controls and forced investment in USTs.

    It is going to happen.

  32. Scrapple n'Ricin says:
    May 2, 2013 at 7:09 am

    Any questions?

    “The Educrat Industry blames the economy for its own abysmal failure to actually provide a measurable yield on the immense sums spent on higher education, of course, but the reality is that higher education fails to prepare students for work in the real economy.

    What higher education excels at is maintaining an ever-increasing input of cash while its output/yield declines. the same is true of all the other fiefdoms and rentier arrangements that dominate our economy.

    The input needed to keep the Status Quo stable must be taken from other potentially more productive investments. Taxes notch higher as the state scoops ever greater sums into its maw to fund its failing fiefdoms and diminishing-return cartels, and it borrows trillions of dollars to fill the gap between tax revenues and ever-rising input costs.

    All that borrowed money has a cost, too, of course–interest. The costs of maintaining a sclerotic, cartel-state Status Quo infected with incurable diminishing returns eventually exceed the carrying capacity of the real economy and the Status Quo collapses in a heap.”

    http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-fatal-disease-of-status-quo.html

  33. The Original NJ ExPat says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:21 am

    Perhaps the people who would answer that way were at work and unavailable for the survey?

    Well, that’s exactly my point. The survey was open ended, and it doesn’t look like anyone provided that answer. Nobody answered “Renting makes more financial sense for me.”

  34. Brian says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:23 am

    So, clearly manufacturing output as a percentage of US GDP has decreased since say…the 1950’s.

    But has total manufacturing output decreased since then or increased? Did other sectors just grow faster?

    22.Fabius Maximus says:
    May 1, 2013 at 11:41 pm
    #17 Brian

    I have come across it in various places over the years. Forgive the Wiki source.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Gdp-and-labour-force-by-sector.png

    This would be interesting is they could factor in GDP to Debt as a marker of world economic health.

  35. Brian says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:29 am

    Interesting, here’s a chart that shows manufacturing output of the top 5 manufacturers of the world from 1970 through 2011.

    Manufacturing output has increased steadily during that time periods. I see a few dips in the graph which probably represent recessions.

    http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/12/charts-of-the-day-world-manufacturing-output-2011/

    The charts above are based on new data from the United Nations on GDP and its components for more than 200 countries, updated through 2011.

    1. The top chart compares the annual manufacturing output from 1970 to 2011 (measured in current US dollars) for the five countries that produced the most manufacturing output last year: China, US, Japan, Germany, and Italy. As I reported earlier, China is now officially the world’s largest manufacturer, with output in 2011 ($2.34 trillion) that was 23% higher than the $1.9 trillion of factory output in the U.S.

    2. The U.S. is still a world leader in manufacturing and America’s factory output continues to increase, despite the rise of China to the world’s No. 1 manufacturer. The bottom chart below puts the enormous size of the U.S. manufacturing sector into perspective, by comparing America’s manufacturing output in 2001 ($1.904 trillion) to the combined manufacturing output of Germany, Italy, Korea, Brazil and the Russian Federation, which are the countries that are ranked No. 4 through No. 8 in 2011 for manufacturing output.

    3. It’s also important to remember that China’s manufacturing workforce is estimated to be around 100 million and could be as high as 110 million, compared to America’s manufacturing employment of less than 12 million. Therefore,the U.S. is producing slightly less manufacturing output than China, but U.S. worker productivity is so high compared to China, that China needs almost ten factory workers for every one American worker to produce roughly the same amount of output.

  36. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:30 am

    Get rid dogs would be an option.

    Why do people get multiple dogs and cats? Kinda a form of hoarding.

    My wife is a pet nut. Dog, then fish now a gerbil, I dont even want plants, just more work, money spent and a pain in the butt. Babies that dont grow up are pets.

    Just go to corner of broad and beaver and tie them to Yips front door.

    Essex says:
    May 1, 2013 at 8:41 pm

    I have four dogs. Rentals are not really an option.

  37. The Original NJ ExPat says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:33 am

    Exactly. What’s popular isn’t always right and what’s right isn’t always popular. We did roughly the same by buying much smaller than we could afford with a 40% down payment in 2002. We’re still paying down our 5,75% from our single refi in 2006 because our balance is too small to refi and the “high” rate pushes us to continue toward the finish line instead of cashing out and pushing the finish line out 30 or 15 years. Probably one more year and we’re done.

    DL says:
    May 2, 2013 at 6:39 am
    My reason for buying not on that list. I want a house
    1. that (hopefully) no one can force me out of
    2. that I can decorate/renovate/enlarge to suit my tastes
    3. that will give me more disposable income out of monthly cash flow (due to large down payment (80%))

  38. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:40 am

    I grieved my taxes this year once again. This time with Sandy I went for a 50% cut in value. First time ever if I lose I will file a SCAR – Small Claims Assessment Review and take it to court. Win or lose I am already set to grieve in Spring 2014. The entire year 2013 comps will be ripe for the pickings.

    The door slams shut in 2014 on this grieving process. Most of fire sales near me are being sold to young couples or flippers who are getting a big discount and fully renovating properties. I already see one home near me that sold for 240K in January back on Market for 440K after it was fixed up.

    Spring 2015 tax grieving will be hard, the bargain homes are all sold, RE recovering, the flippers selling McMansions and the raised homes or new homes built will drive up prices.

    My house for instance is 2/3rds done then hard stop. No flood insurance and I cant get people to do it cheap. My guy spring 2014 already agreed to finish it off at cash price. I also have an appeal in with NYS for grant money. In that case I do it now.

    Either way NYS or NJ is smart the home building boom is on. Flood neighborhoods are getting redone. Non Flood neighborhoods folks are relocating there driving up values and new owners fix up houses.

    Sadly, it is end game for grieving taxes. Folks it will be like California soon, us folks who beat the snot out of the assessors office in 2009-2013 will be sitting pretty while folks who buy in 2014 forward will get hit with sky high property taxes.

    Folks who bought pre 2013 who did not grieve will really get the snot kicked out of them.

    I grieved my house using five recent comps within 1/2 mile to get it assessed at 150K under my Feb 2000 purchase price. Should be fun when they get around to discussing my application. My sister did 300K under 2002 price. Nice.

    Folks are going crazy grieving in all of NJ, NYC and LI. Non-folks are really the worst. They are scared that since every flood house is grieving if they dont they will get to pick up burden

  39. Grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:40 am

    Jobless claims knock it out of the park

  40. DL says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:41 am

    31: Clot, that’s why I’m spending as much as I can now to get something I want/need instead of crap debt that pays negative interest.

  41. joyce says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:43 am

    Than you’re in agreement with me. So why do you continue to treat the symptoms and not the cause?

    21.Fabius Maximus says:
    May 1, 2013 at 11:36 pm
    “If you’re implying that the fact that the economy was transformed to 70-80% service-based (and 70%+ consumer spending) IS A BAD THING”

    Yes it is a bad thing!

    One of the strengths of the US was self sufficiency. It could meet almost all the needs of the population though domestic output. The US is rich in mining resources such as mining and agriculture. As you ship manufacturing overseas and lettuce production to Mexico. that balance shifts.

    There is a big difference between “Made in America” and “Assembled in America”

  42. joyce says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:47 am

    And if he had pulled the trigger in fear for his life or serious harm… you’d have a problem with that?

    Regarding “A responsible gun owner in control. But for that case, the numbers in the other direction are just staggering” … in a word, bullsh*t. Cite your facts. (shootings are recorded cause they happened, non-shootings are obviously not)

    Shootings (the negative kind) make headline news… self-defense with a gun (whether or not the trigger is pulled) is barely newsworthy cause it disrupts the official narrative.

    19.Fabius Maximus says:
    May 1, 2013 at 11:29 pm
    #14 Joyce
    A responsible gun owner in control. But for that case, the numbers in the other direction are just staggering
    I tip my hat to him for not pulling the trigger. .

  43. The Original NJ ExPat says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:52 am

    You’re right JJ. We used to have a crazy neighbor who fit that bill. Nice looking woman, late 30’s, but a giant of a woman, maybe 6′ 2″ tall. When I met her she said she had cats. I said, “more than one?”. She said, “No, well yes. But just two, I’m not a cat lady.” When she moved away she had 3 cats and a great dane. I saw on FB the other day that ONE of her great danes just died, who knows how many cats by now. Unless you live in a stone and marble castle with oversized everything I don’t know why anyone would own a great dane. If you have regular-sized sheet rock or plaster hallways, a great dane simultaneously wipes his nose and rear end on both walls whenever he reverses direction mid-hall. Marble would be much easier to clean and you’d probably have people to do that for you.

    JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:30 am
    Get rid dogs would be an option.

    Why do people get multiple dogs and cats? Kinda a form of hoarding.

  44. All Hype - Mr. Oil, Mr. Gas, Mr. Coal says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:01 am

    Grim (39):
    There is nobody left to layoff. If you got a job then good for you. If not, you are screwed.

    It will be interesting to see what the labor force participation rate will be tomorrow. To me that is the guide on the health of the labor market.
    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?s%5B1%5D%5Bid%5D=CIVPART

  45. Grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:04 am

    I have a Great Dane, he’s cleaner and more well behaved than most snot nosed brats I’ve seen. His siblings are grand champions already, so he’s probably better bred than above mentioned brats. The worst of it are the occasional muddy paws from tearing around the yard, well … and the fact that he thinks he can fit on a lap. He’s great with the baby and would probably go for your throat if you approached her in an aggressive manner.

  46. chicagofinance says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:08 am

    My brother’s ex-wife was maniacal about Mastifs…….they ended up with 3 of them……the number of times I visited their home …… ZERO……. I couldn’t stand that woman……. WASP from Ridgewood….

    The Original NJ ExPat says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:52 am
    When she moved away she had 3 cats and a great dane. I saw on FB the other day that ONE of her great danes just died, who knows how many cats by now. Unless you live in a stone and marble castle with oversized everything I don’t know why anyone would own a great dane. If you have regular-sized sheet rock or plaster hallways, a great dane simultaneously wipes his nose and rear end on both walls whenever he reverses direction mid-hall.

  47. The Original NJ ExPat says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:13 am

    Great Danes = What sheep lovers buy when they move to the suburbs?

    Grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:04 am
    I have a Great Dane, he’s cleaner and more well behaved than most snot nosed brats I’ve seen. His siblings are grand champions already, so he’s probably better bred than above mentioned brats. The worst of it are the occasional muddy paws from tearing around the yard, well … and the fact that he thinks he can fit on a lap. He’s great with the baby and would probably go for your throat if you approached her in an aggressive manner.

  48. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:16 am

    For most part “responsible gun owner” is an oxymoron. 99% of folks who are not cops etc who have a reason who have a gun are putting their life, their families life and neighbors in danger.

    Right now I live in a place where there is no reason to own a gun. It is a safe neighborhood. Yet people own them. Heck I lived in the Bronx for 12 years when it was at its worse. We had hockey sticks, num-chucks, baseball bats, brass knuckles and knifes floating around but no one really had a gun. Plus the bigger kid would just steal my gun, I have to shoot him and go to jail or give it to him. Usually the best protection was strength in numbers. We hang out in large packs of ten year olds. 40 10 year olds hanging out in park with bats, sticks and rocks good luck with your little six shooter. We would wild your butt to death. Also we had muggings in the bronx. Right before I left guy across the street who got paid on Fridays in cash a crack head found out and just shot him in back of the head and took his money.

    Only on TV to they walk up and introduce themselves and say I dont have a gun and I am about to rob you then give you time to get your gun out. Only time ever we got attempted robbed in a scary situation the robber in times square did not get gun out of pocket and idiot did not realize we had a switch blade in your hand. Guy got very still and said what are you doing with that white boy. The reply was in a split second this is in your stomach I am twisting it and we are running good luck shooting at us as we are flying down the block. You may hit us but either way you are dead. He decided not to rob us that day if I had a gun we would just go all jessie james and shot each other. Which would not have worked well as he had 20 gang members, If I won I would have to go all Bernie Getz and shoot them all. Guns are fairly stupid unless you are a thief or a cop

    Joyce says:
    May 2, 2013 at 8:47 am

    And if he had pulled the trigger in fear for his life or serious harm… you’d have a problem with that?

  49. 250k says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:16 am

    Jill (#62 from yesterday)

    Sorry to hear about your spouse and the Big C. That sucks. Kicking whatever C plagues him is job #1 so you are smart to put him on the retired list.

    Jobless claims are at five year lows so I guess its just me who is incompetent and overeducated and dared to take time off to address family issues.

  50. chicagofinance says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:17 am

    The Original NJ ExPat says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:13 am
    Great Danes = What sheep lovers buy when they move to the suburbs?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B94lP-fZyLk

  51. joyce says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:21 am

    99% of cops, etc do not put their lives on the line. Those parking & traffic tickets aren’t going to write themselves.

    48.JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:16 am
    For most part “responsible gun owner” is an oxymoron. 99% of folks who are not cops etc who have a reason who have a gun are putting their life, their families life and neighbors in danger.

  52. joyce says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:24 am

    JJ,
    Why can’t the cops follow the advice you want everyone else to employ? They interact with the same people we do.

  53. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:30 am

    Cops in New York City do not write parking tickets.

    They would not need guns at all if it was not for minorities and women. Back when there was a height requirement, and they only hired young males and cops travel in pairs guns were rarely used even in the worst neighborhoods

    But cops were mainly Irish, German, Italian, Black back then. Tall Health pools of men. Then the shorter hispanic and Asian men sued along with the women.

    Now I see cops who are like five foot three with a belly and a gun. They are shooter happy as they can’t overpower even a junior high school kid.
    joyce says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:21 am

    99% of cops, etc do not put their lives on the line. Those parking & traffic tickets aren’t going to write themselves.

  54. Fast Eddie says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:42 am

    Reasons NJ homeowners decided to own their home:

    1) Drank the koolaid at the open house which was laced with chloroform.
    2) IQ was lower than the realtors IQ.
    3) An Investment/Appreciate in Value – LOL! Tell that to the guy who bought in 2006.
    4) Smarter thing to do/Don’t want to throw money away – Right. $15,560 a year in property taxes is not throwing money away.

  55. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 10:06 am

    15-year mortgage rate hits record low of 2.56%

  56. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 10:09 am

    Fixed Rate 10 Year 2.375% 2.549 %
    Fixed Rate 15 Year 2.500% 2.620 %
    Fixed Rate 20 Year 3.125% 3.247 %
    Fixed Rate 30 Year 3.250% 3.337 %

    This is why home prices are rising. Young couples can afford to buy trade up homes easily with these rates and folks who always wanted a vacation home who use a 15 year mortgage this also helps

  57. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 10:41 am

    Great Danes: I recently took on a new tenant who has a Great Dane. Big dog. However, I tell each prospective tenant I must see dog first. If dog bites or lunges at me, goodbye to prospective tenant. Also, for that apt. there is a separate fenced in yard. The tenant likes that and is more likely to want to stay there. And pay higher rent, of course. The other three tenants in this 4 unit saw the dog for the first time last week. Thought it was a horse at first!
    Tenants with pets tend to stay longer. Any damage comes out of security, which at 1 1/2 times rent is usually sufficient to cover problems. And of course, tenant having a secure job where you could garnish wages is a big help, too.

  58. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 10:55 am

    Btw, when it comes to pets, I learned as most do the hard way. Tenants will sneak in pets and when approached will tell you that it’s not theirs, just petsitting, blah, blah. I now have a clause stating that each additional pet, with or without landlord’s approval will be charged $50 as ADDITIONAL RENT. It will be coming out when they move out. That usually means no security is returned because they LIED. They will have to take me to court on that. Of course, I need evidence, e.g., pictures. For that, cell phones are great.

  59. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 10:58 am

    I want tenants who earn six figures or more, no pets, no smokers, no kids, no friends or family who work long hours and travel a lot who have cleaning and germ phobias who keep place spotless and dont mind paying above market rents

  60. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 10:59 am

    Lots of Gay Men have great dames and they dont fix them and let them bang the snot out of them everynight

  61. Statler Waldorf says:
    May 2, 2013 at 11:27 am

    That’s a fascinating poll. People are very delusional / misinformed / misguided.

  62. Libtard in the City says:
    May 2, 2013 at 11:46 am

    People are truly misguided. The ultimate move for a new couple is really to do what Gator and I did. Buy a multi and live in one of the units. For eight years, Gator and I paid what eventually worked out to $1,000 per year’s rent on a unit that is now renting for $2,350. Not only did it save us a ton on rent, but it also provided us some nice tax breaks. It also provided us with the lesson one learns when owning a starter home. Fifteen years from now, that starter home will pay for my children’s higher educations. I know this site has a rent before buy bent. But the right rental in the right location is truly an excellent investment. We just had new tenants move in yesterday so I had to do the walkthrough to inspect for any damage committed by the prior renters. There was none whatsoever, as par usual. $100 cleaning and it was good to go. All the meanwhile, I can’t figure out for the life of me why anyone would pay as much in rent to live in my mediocre multi then what they could pay to own a multi of their own even with taxes and upkeep. So be it. Suckers don’t save I suppose.

  63. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 11:55 am

    I tried that in 1982. I found a legal 3 family in Morristown, then asking $145k. It had a 4th unit in the basement. A Morristown cop rented there. Implication: no concern. Some units had working fireplaces. Rents then were $600 per unit. My fiancee decided to look at it with the RE agent. She said ahhh…OK. Then realtor showed another multi 3 doors away and knocked on the door. A young male kid with ‘diversity’ stamped on his flesh stepped out. My wife bolted and took a B line to the car. Last of that. I was pissed at her. Still married after 29 years, though.

  64. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    Some women are the biggest drawbacks at making it in RE. My wife not only knocked down that deal, where we could have fixed up each apartment one at a time and raised rents accordingly, she knocked down others. Hang around with the kids, stay home, do you need the headache, blah blah blah.
    My immigrant father wanted to buy ten acres on Davidson Ave, Somereset in the mid 50s for $8k. Bank was begging him to take (i.e., borrow) the money. He grew up in the steppes and the property reminded him of home. No 287 then. Mom said ‘ what do you need this for? it’s a headache’, blah, blah, blah. Shot him down.

  65. nwnj says:
    May 2, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    xolepa –

    I’ve seen you chime in here from time-to-time on the joys of landlording. What’s you opinion of the current market? Would you consider buying things NOW if they are cash flow positive? Looking to put some savings to work…

  66. Scrapple n'Ricin says:
    May 2, 2013 at 12:07 pm

    Those of us who survive the coming collapse will be living in the out of doors for the rest of our lives.

  67. Scrapple n'Ricin says:
    May 2, 2013 at 12:09 pm

    xolepa (64)-

    Wow. You could’ve ended up as the biggest mack daddy slumlord in Somerset.

  68. Libtard in the City says:
    May 2, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    nwnj,

    There’s a delicate balance between being a slumlord and an excellent landlord that one must excel at. You can’t give away the farm, but at the same time, you have to maintain things well enough to keep the higher rents coming in.

  69. Scrapple n'Ricin says:
    May 2, 2013 at 12:10 pm

    I sold a few investment units in Somerset back in the day. It’s amazing what you can do to the interior of your house with a shotgun.

  70. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 12:20 pm

    When I bought my units in the 90’s the rate of return investors were demanding was about 14%. Interest rates were higher, then. Now, as I look at GSMLS listings, I see nothing. Landlords have refinanced under HARP and are much better off. Others who bought pre-bubble are doing quite well. In addition, landlords see that comps are still coming in low and hold off selling as a result.There is no incentive now to sell these units.
    So it’s a tough market to buy in. In my opinion, only properties worth going after are those outside of the RE listings. That means hard work: Asking around, cold calling, placing ‘want to buy’ ads in the papers, etc. I would only get in if I find an acceptable rate of return and knew the market was getting bubbly.

  71. nwnj says:
    May 2, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    #68

    I hear you – it’s a commitment. No doubt about that. I’m thinking about it but was wondering what the current pros thought of the climate for RE investing currently in NJ.

  72. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 12:21 pm

    (67) Don’t even ask about the 200 acres on Route 202 in Somerset County that had an asking of $50k.

  73. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 12:52 pm

    My worst one by far was six acres in Bridgehampton for 120K cash in Feb 1992. I only could come up with 30K needed needed my family to go in for other 90K, none would go in. Then my GF at time was like I could do it with you and I was like well long term I want only family and it would be weird to own something with you if we broke up.

    Apparently she thought she was going to marry me so that did not go well. Even worst Spring 2006 the person who bought plot in April 1992 for 120K cash sold it for 3 million. He never built on it. Just left it empty for 14 years.

    Second worse was 1993 had a chance to buy a very small town house on 24 and park like 18 feet wide. It was 600K, I could have swung it as a rental if I cashed out 401K and move back home for a year or two. That is also worth several million now.

    Both had crazy low taxes.

  74. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    Shocker: Junk Bond Yield Hits New All-Time Low (5.178%)

    The factors underlying the latest plunge in the risk premium are as obscure as those fueling the most recent surge in stock prices. Equity skeptics point to softness in corporate revenues and scaling back of analysts’ earnings estimates, against a backdrop of still lingering unease in the Eurozone. On the high yield side, the spread is extraordinarily narrower than our fair value estimate of +656 basis points, which is based on the default rate, two measures of economic performance, Treasury yields, and a gauge of credit availability. More than ever, valuations appear to be elevated by exceptionally energetic Fed activity. Investors are willing to own high yield bonds at prevailing spreads not because they think those spreads reflect the fundamentals, but because they believe Ben Bernanke and his successor—whoever that turns out to be—will continue driving capital into risky assets until 2014 or beyond.

  75. Anon E. Moose says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:02 pm

    Since we talk often about public pensions here, it seems that other people have noticed the honey pot as well.

    Loans Borrowed Against Pensions Squeeze Retirees

    Right up there with Montel Williams and Western Sky capital. You know what they say about a fool and his money.

  76. Juice Box says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:17 pm

    re: #75 – Pravda has really outdone itself in that article. You only go to a loan shark as a last resort.

    “Mr. Govan, the retired Marine, considered himself a credit “outcast” after his credit score was battered by a foreclosure in 2008 and a personal bankruptcy in 2010.

    Unable to get a bank loan or credit card to supplement his pension income, Mr. Govan, now 59, applied for a payday loan online to pay for repairs to his truck. ”

    Err how about getting a J.O.B. 59 is too young to retire.

  77. Waiting In Rent says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    Just had to cancel the uber inspector.
    Sellers have an underground oil tank that they haven’t used in years. Never decommissioned and no certificates. They are playing difficult on removal. I’m not budging. No Removal = no closing.

  78. Grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:38 pm

    What was your appointment date, I need your slot.

  79. Juice Box says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    15 year and 30 year mortgages area again at record lows today.

    I need to go back to my bank and shave off a bit more before I close…

  80. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:48 pm

    What do you expect them to do? You only have few choices

    How much off would you need to buy house and take care of tank?

    If they remove tank do you care how they do it?

    If tank is full of sand and capped off as opposed to left with oil that can leak is that an issue.

    Bottom line isn’t it very expensive to remove a tank, how much is that to do properly?

    I mean if you wont budge, and housing is recovering anyhow and they are not in a massive rush to sell why cant they just get rid of it themselves?? Next buyer wont know. Or next buyer wont care

    My oil tank which was in my crawl space got flooded with salt water during Sandy. I put a new oil tank in then I had EPA pump oil out of old tank, handiman for $250 cut it loose, cemented up hole and pushed it to side of house and scrap yard picked it up for free. Technically, I should of paid like $1,200 to have it removed then $75 for a piece of paper, but I needed it out ASAP as we were closing up wall.

    What difference does it make to next homeowner? Why should they care? Also for instance in NY I think up to 1999 you could dig up and inground tank with no permits. What if I had an old tank from the 1960s-1990s in yard. What if I rip it out today and just tell seller I bought house in 2000 dont know what you are talking about.

    EPA pumps contaminated oil for tanks for free. I would pump it , fill it with sand and call it a day.

    Waiting In Rent says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:30 pm

    Just had to cancel the uber inspector.
    Sellers have an underground oil tank that they haven’t used in years. Never decommissioned and no certificates. They are playing difficult on removal. I’m not budging. No Removal = no closing.

  81. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    Anyone who took the SBA Sandy loan got a bit screwed. Those rates looked good back in Jan-April but no longer look good. Oh well.

    Juice Box says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    15 year and 30 year mortgages area again at record lows today.

    I need to go back to my bank and shave off a bit more before I close…

  82. Brian says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:52 pm

    80 – it’s very difficult to get homeowners insurance if they find out you have an underground oil tank on the property. It’s considered a huge liability.

    I saved all the paperwork they gave me when I bought my house. They took pictures of the removal and documented everything. Had to have the state inspect…..etc. Must have cost a fortune.

    http://www.state.nj.us/dobi/division_consumers/insurance/oiltanks.htm

  83. Brian says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:58 pm

    11,363 views
    Lawrence T. Mraz’s Blog
    By Lawrence T. Mraz | Agent in Middlesex County, NJ
    ..Dealing with underground oil tanks when selling a home
    Posted under: Home Selling in New Jersey | July 30, 2009 7:36 AM | 4,419 views | 19 comments
    …I try to explain to sellers with underground oil tanks how important it is to remove them before they put their home on the market. This goes for tanks that are in active use as well as for the much more problematic “abandoned” type. Having an underground storage tank on the property makes the home much less marketable, worth less to a potential buyer and it increases the risk of complications in getting the deal closed.

    If a seller is lucky enough to finally get a buyer interested in putting an offer on their home with a UST, in New Jersey buyers will almost surely ask to have the tank removed anyway. They never know for sure what problems may be lurking beneath the tank despite previous testing of the tank and soil. In addition, it is almost impossible to find an insurer for a home that has an underground oil tank. No insurance, no sale!

    In the event that a problem is discovered during the removal process, the time frame to close is increased significantly. The EPA must be notified, a contractor action plan developed and approved, removal of the tank and contaminated soil must take place, and then a final clearance letter from the EPA issued. That letter is called a “No Further Action” letter or notice”, often referred to as an “NFA” letter and is issued by the State of New Jersey Environmental Protection Agency once all remedial work is done, and final post removal soil test results are reviewed. Mortgage companies will not close without a final NFA letter which takes a minimum of 4 to 8 weeks from the time of filing the paperwork showing all work was completed.

    http://www.trulia.com/blog/LawrenceTMraz/2009/07/dealing_with_underground

  84. Grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    If you want to be a jerk, call ATS and schedule soil tests without letting the owners know, schedule it the same day as the inspection. If ATS finds oil they have to notify the EPA.

  85. Juice Box says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:00 pm

    Oil tank removal about 60% of the tanks leaked. So costs to remove can go into the 10s of thousands.

    http://www.bergen.com/homesestates/Costly_Cleanup_Buried_oil_tanks_can_break_home_sale_deals.html

  86. Grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    The problem with oil tanks is nobody knows they are there, there was never a registration process, there is no list, reporting an abandoned tank is based on honor system. I’d wager a guess at hundreds if not thousands of houses in NJ sell every year with unknown abandoned tanks. All it takes is one sale, and the new owner has no idea it’s there, nor any reason to believe its there. They can say no tanks, and they aren’t lying.

  87. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    Funny how Jersey folks care about oil tanks. I could care less. Oil flumes anyhow so the two next door neighbors could have leaky old tanks and you are screwed anyhow.

    So when I sell my house why would anyone ask what happened to my old tank and why would they care. Also why did you guys bury your oil tanks all over the place. The new ones are all above ground. My neighbor put on in right outside her crawlspace on a concrete slab and it is fiberglass with vent like six feet in air. Looks ugly but it faces other corner. Mine is in crawlspace and get this my oil tank fill nozzel is on front lawn with vent. Burying tanks are silly.

    Next thing you will tell me is some mumbo jumbo about absestos, somehow if the day before open house I rip it out and throw it in garbage it is ok but after some nervous nelly looks at my house and sees it I have to pay thousands to have it removed.

  88. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:10 pm

    My parents converted from oil to gas in the 70s but kept oil tank in ground. I kept telling them – get rid of it or fill it with sand. No record of it existed. It was pumped dry in the 70s . They sold the house in 2001 but were lucky – just filled it with sand.

  89. Brian says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    It’s all BS anyhow. When I bought my house the guy was so proud of the fact that he had the tank removed, had pros do it, gave me a stack of paperwork and inch thick with pictures. Even NFA letter from State. Everything was hunkey dorey and the environment was A-OK.

    I’ll tell you though, when my brother and I fired up the jackhammer in the basement to break a hole in the slab to put in the sump pump….the muddy sandy dirt under the concrete reeked of diesel (home heating oil). Thankfully the sump pump has now pumped all that stuff down the storm drain into the environment.

    84.Grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 1:59 pm
    If you want to be a jerk, call ATS and schedule soil tests without letting the owners know, schedule it the same day as the inspection. If ATS finds oil they have to notify the EPA.

  90. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:11 pm

    NYS is best, we all pay a $500 fine to buyer at closing which is required if we refuse to disclose any oil, absestos, lead, termite problems.

    Grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    The problem with oil tanks is nobody knows they are there, there was never a registration process, there is no list, reporting an abandoned tank is based on honor system. I’d wager a guess at hundreds if not thousands of houses in NJ sell every year with unknown abandoned tanks. All it takes is one sale, and the new owner has no idea it’s there, nor any reason to believe its there. They can say no tanks, and they aren’t lying.

  91. Brian says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    Just make sure you do whatever you have to do to keep the state and the lawyers out of your business. Buying a house with an underground oil tank is asking for trouble.

  92. Waiting In Rent says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    JJ,
    I want them to pull it.
    They have an estimate for $1600 including the permit.
    I don’t want it decommissioned in the ground. I want it out and gone.
    Really is a deal breaker for me.

    Testing soil and tank would probably run around 500 – 700. So not really worth it given that for some more, the problem could be gone.

    Point is they are trying to transfer their problem to me and I’m not willing to accept it. This is a business transaction and we are not dying for the house.

  93. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1324&context=lawreview

    This is great stuff if you are interested in real estate required disclosures

  94. Waiting In Rent says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    Grim,
    Appointment is for tomorrow at 10 am.
    He is back logged a minimum of 2 weeks.
    I’ve already told my lawyer if we somehow move forward I will need 2-3 weeks for inspections. House really needs Der Uber Inspector.

  95. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    …and don’t get me started about lead paint. On other other hand, yes I will. Bough a two unit in the 90s two months after RE sale/lead paint notification federal law went into effect. Turns out contract had no lead paint clause and I inherit tenants whose 2 year old unsupervised kit starts eating paint….. I had to pay for remediation. Afterwards, I sued the sellers and their attorney stating they had no lead paint clause in contract, in small claims. They paid me in full for my troubles.

  96. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    Sounds reasonable. Just if they are old people may not want to deal with it. Is it there tank or was it there before they bought the house.

    Place I am closing on next week thankfully has electric heat. Very popular on rental properties in beach areas. Oil and Gas heat are one big pain. Expensive to buy burner, one more bill to deal with, they need servicing etc. Big selling point is they are more efficent, but I aint paying bills. Plus winter tenants pay bill and in summer I only turn it on for hot water or AC, by beach AC is only a few days a year.

    My old GF when her dad bungalows in long beach he had all baseboard electric and a gas hot water heater in attic and a gas stove. He had electric panel in attic. Worse case in a flood he replace a few cheap electric things. Crazy how folks build houses nowdays. In Sandy he would have been up and running with a mop and some bleach, today 200K flood claim

    Waiting In Rent says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:15 pm

    JJ,
    I want them to pull it.
    They have an estimate for $1600 including the permit.
    I don’t want it decommissioned in the ground. I want it out and gone.
    Really is a deal breaker for me.

    Testing soil and tank would probably run around 500 – 700. So not really worth it given that for some more, the problem could be gone.

    Point is they are trying to transfer their problem to me and I’m not willing to accept it. This is a business transaction and we are not dying for the house.

  97. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:21 pm

    How retarted is that kid

    xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:18 pm

    …and don’t get me started about lead paint. On other other hand, yes I will. Bough a two unit in the 90s two months after RE sale/lead paint notification federal law went into effect. Turns out contract had no lead paint clause and I inherit tenants whose 2 year old unsupervised kit starts eating paint….. I had to pay for remediation. Afterwards, I sued the sellers and their attorney stating they had no lead paint clause in contract, in small claims. They paid me in full for my troubles.

  98. JSMC says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    #96

    I grew up in a house with electric heat. It sucks more than you can ever imagine. I had to put my clothes under my sheets at the foot of my bed at night so that every morning I could wake up with clothes that weren’t freezing cold and I could get dressed before I got out of my warm sheets to a sub 50 degree room. This is in the late 90’s too, not the frickin’ 1930’s.

    For summer rental housing it’s good enough to keep the pipes from freezing, but I will never live anywhere in the wintertime that only has electric heat.

  99. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:32 pm

    (97) That’s actually not funny. The whole family was messed up. The mother was depressive, slept during the day. Child ran around. It turns out that the child was autistic.
    On the other hand, I had a funny suspicion that there may be a problem in the future. I researched the laws that stated I had responsibilities if any change occurred in my lease with them. So, They went month to month and I never raised the rent on them once. NJ courts stated that raising rent is considered a change in lease, even if they are month to month.

  100. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:39 pm

    (98) There are new technology solutions put in the market place past few years. It’s called mini split systems. They are high efficiency ac systems doubling as heating appliances. They are good down to -5F in some models. I have a large room over my garage that doesn’t cool down well via the central ac system. I am contemplating putting one of these on a wall. It costs less than a grand and with a high SEER rating – NJ gives you a $500 rebate. The unit I am looking at will be $300 after rebate and fed tax credit.

  101. grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:45 pm

    Running electric heat in NJ would cost you a small fortune. It *might* work if the house is sealed up tight and insulated well over code. But really, those two cases seldom coexist. Probably fine for occasional use in a summer house, lake bungalow, or basement.

  102. Statler Waldorf says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:48 pm

    JJ, a leaking underground (not in a basement) oil tank can cost from $5,000 to $300,000 (and more) to remediate. As a buyer, there is absolutely no need to take on such a risk. If the seller refuses to remove an underground oil tank, the buyer should immediately move onto the next house.

  103. grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    xo – A good mini-split that can run heating via heat pump (and not simple resistive heating, you need to check) down to -5F is going to run you more than a grand. If you are going to have an HVAC and Electrician install it, I’d tell you to budget somewhere around $3-4k.

    Something like a Mitsubishi with the “Hyper Heat” feature.

  104. Brian says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:49 pm

    Clearly your wife is doing all the work at your household or you would know most kids under 1 pretty much put everything they find into their mouths.

    97.JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:21 pm
    How retarted is that kid

  105. Brian says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:53 pm

    Wife’s uncle’s house in Hope township is bi-level build in the 80’s. It is all electric baseboard heat.

    They put in a pellet stove on each floor to supplement. I think it was getting expensive.

    Was electricity cheap in the late 70’s – early 80’s or something?

    101.grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:45 pm
    Running electric heat in NJ would cost you a small fortune. It *might* work if the house is sealed up tight and insulated well over code. But really, those two cases seldom coexist. Probably fine for occasional use in a summer house, lake bungalow, or basement.

  106. JSMC says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:56 pm

    #100

    My parents had a cheaper solution: wait until space heaters were safer than the hot red coils behind a wire cage they used to be, and buy one for every bedroom in the house. I wish I was making this up.

    Although, word is that gas lines will be run on the street they live on either this year or next, so they are thinking about purchasing a gas fireplace…who knows where that will lead to in the future (they live in the pine barrens, so gas lines aren’t exactly running all over the place).

  107. grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    Was probably much cheaper in the past.

    Was in a house over the weekend that had electric ceramic radiant heating panels built into the walls all over the house, big things, like 2 foot by 4 foot, they looked like glass cooktops with stainless steel wire grates to protect someone from touching the panel directly. It was the only heating in the house.

    Owner’s son said something like “they are much more efficient than regular electric heat”. The problem is that all electric heat is pretty much 100% efficient. You can’t really save money by finding something more efficient.

    (Heat pumps are entirely different animals than resistive heating, and are more efficient, but quickly lose efficiency as the outside temperature drops).

  108. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 2:59 pm

    (103) In my case, I am looking only for cooling – that room in on a separate baseboard heat zone. So, AC only units are less expensive. Did you mention install? I have installed several furnace/ac systems myself and piped several new boilers, gas and oil. I also have r134a certification which cross certifies to r410a. Also have gaspipe certs, if needed. I would do freon line hookup myself if I had my hands on a good vacuum pipe. Vacuum testing is not rocket science. All you need is a gauge and the proper fittings.

    Getting these certifications is as easy as taking a hour on-line course and passing the EPA test. A monkey could pass them.

  109. 1987 Condo Buyer says:
    May 2, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    #103, #100….I was going to say I was quoted between $3500 and $4,500 for a similar unit installed.

  110. grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 3:02 pm

    As long as you have the equipment to pull a vacuum, you are golden, that’s usually where most DIY’ers fall short. If you call around, you can usually find an independent HVAC guy to do the startup for you, pull the vacuum, charge the lines, than adjust pressure, for a lot less cash. No warranties of course.

    I’m installing a Mr. Slim for heating and cooling in my basement. No sense running baseboard down there, my Central AC is attic based, so getting ducting to the basement is pretty much an impossibility. I’m going DIY, I’ve got the gear to pull the necessary vac. Let me know if you need my pump.

  111. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 3:03 pm

    (108) vacuum pipe = vacuum pump

  112. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 3:14 pm

    (110) Grim, I do appreciate the offer. I will contact you when I go that way, which I do prefer.
    I have a certified heating unit in my basement already – actually a direct vented gas fireplace. Menoda, I think is the manny. Heats the whole level. Basement doesn’t need ac, maybe dehumidification for several weeks of the year.

  113. Essex says:
    May 2, 2013 at 3:16 pm

    My unit appreciated.

  114. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 3:16 pm

    I have a brand newdeluxe energy star Heating/Airconditioner Pump,all new electric, new toilet, new hot water heater in my new condo courtesy of Flood Insurance. Oddly in a condo the seller cant take the money and run, it is the condo master flood policy. This guy evacuated after Sandy and last I went to unit the work was wrapping up. They are leaving me the instructions and warranties on everything. The dishwasher got shorted out too, so I am ordering a new dishwasher too.

    I got screwed on my primary house in Sandy so I might as well get some freebies here.

    Cuomo threw me a big time bone on Friday. He announced that folks with unreimbursed repairs including condos with flood insurance he will pick up tab through a fema grant. Thank God, it would suck if I got a maint jack for stuff when I did not even own homes. Of course that was a dice roll I took but it is my TBTF strategy. I also bought LIPA bonds and Nassau County Muni bonds last few weeks praying FEMA/NYS would bail them out, I got a bit of a pop when they did in last few days plus rates falling.

    Never let a good crisis go to waste.

  115. The Original NJ ExPat says:
    May 2, 2013 at 3:25 pm

    Yep, my in-laws had their ~20 year old tank removed a couple years ago, had 8 or 9 holes in it. They had to excavate almost under the basement foundation to remediate. They actually did it for my wife and I, so we don’t have any problems selling the house if they have to get put in assisted living or if they kick the bucket. I have a friend at work who would like his parents to do the same as his sibling has no money and if his parents kick the bucket he’ll have to front the money to remove the tank.

    Oil tank removal about 60% of the tanks leaked. So costs to remove can go into the 10s of thousands.

  116. Waiting In Rent says:
    May 2, 2013 at 3:46 pm

    Original,
    How much did the remediation cost, if you know or remember?
    My sellers have the same situation you are describing as your friend, except I offered to front the money and get it back at closing.
    They will realize that the oil tank is bigger issue for people because you don’t know the potential cost. It could just be $1500 to pull tank or it could cost over $200k because the oil leaked under the foundation and the dirt has to be removed the house supported.

    Okay onto the next property.

  117. JJ says:
    May 2, 2013 at 4:16 pm

    Then why do people list houses with underground oil tanks?

    I mean I had a new oil tank put in when I had my new oil burner after sandy. Oil company could care less about my oil tank.

    Once you have new heat up and running call a service that buys oil and have them drain the old tank then just get a handiman type person to get rid of old tank. My guy was nervous if I had it out in plain site as if a inspector saw it was an issue. I got lucky scrapyard showed up as he was taking it out and away it went.

    I mean a real licensed inspector has to test. That is the issue. Kinda like when I had my floors ripped out that looked like absestos I was told not to test at all. As long as I dont know and he dont know he can rip it out and throw it out. Once we get a real absestos tester in the we are screwed.

    Plus dont some folks just cut top of tank with a blow torch leave sides and bottoms and fill it in with dirt. I mean whole tank is rusting away, even if someone 100 years from now digs there who knows. I dont know why people open cans of worms at closing.

    Waiting In Rent says:
    May 2, 2013 at 3:46 pm

    Original,
    How much did the remediation cost, if you know or remember?
    My sellers have the same situation you are describing as your friend, except I offered to front the money and get it back at closing.
    They will realize that the oil tank is bigger issue for people because you don’t know the potential cost. It could just be $1500 to pull tank or it could cost over $200k because the oil leaked under the foundation and the dirt has to be removed the house supported.

    Okay onto the next property.

  118. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 4:31 pm

    Grim – be careful about what Mitsubishi split system you are buying. Some ‘high’ efficiency units don’t qualify for the rebate. For example, MUZ-FE12NA has an SEER of 12.9. The cutoff in NJ is 13.0.

  119. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 4:33 pm

    (118) Some inspectors actually come out with metal detectors, looking for underground oil tanks. You can’t hide them.

  120. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 4:33 pm

    Me bad 118=117

  121. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 4:37 pm

    me bad again (118) SEER=EER. Too many conference calls today

  122. grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 4:47 pm

    Interesting you bring that up, since that was one of the models I had my eye on. I don’t believe I have any energy credit dollars left, I used up all of the allotted amount for windows, doors, and insulation. If it’s part of the aggregate $1500, I’m probably not eligible.

    I’ve only got 1200 square feet of finished space down there, sub grade, well insulated, not leaky. Basement has stayed quite cool in the summers, so I doubt I’d need anything even remotely approaching the 20-25k btu calculations say I should need (above grade).

    I’d love to be able to get by with the 9k unit, but I fear that might just be too small, 12-15k is probably the sweet spot.

  123. Juice Box says:
    May 2, 2013 at 4:47 pm

    Thinning baby boomer herd.

    “It is the baby boomer group where we see the highest rates of suicide,” said the C.D.C.’s deputy director, Ileana Arias. “There may be something about that group, and how they think about life issues and their life choices that may make a difference.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/03/health/suicide-rate-rises-sharply-in-us.html

  124. Willow says:
    May 2, 2013 at 4:51 pm

    We had an underground oil tank that did leak. We were trying to get new homeowner’s insurance and the company required us to get someone to certify the tank. Needless to say, it didn’t pass (it had been in the ground for at least 50 years). Luckily, we had tank insurance through our oil company. We did have to pay a $1,000 deductible but everything else, including removal of the old tank (there were about 20 dime size holes in the bottom), soil remediation and installation of the new tank in the basement, was covered.

    After all that, we were turned down for the homeowner’s insurance because we live in a supposed hurricane area.

  126. grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 4:57 pm

    Expired in Feb? Too bad…

  127. grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 4:57 pm

    Nevermind, damn that is a great deal.

  128. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 5:04 pm

    Grim, hope I made your day. You have to now study the spec sheets. Go to the manufacturer sites. Don’t trust the seller’s numbers.

  129. grim says:
    May 2, 2013 at 5:07 pm

    Wonder how strict they are with the contractor installation.

  130. 30 year realtor says:
    May 2, 2013 at 5:11 pm

    There is no reason to buy a house with an in-ground oil tank. If the tank tests clean it should be removed. Who wants to own a ticking time bomb?

  131. Hughesrep says:
    May 2, 2013 at 5:12 pm

    Every manufacturers rep in the area has a mini split line they are importing. Prices on those things are dropping like a rock. 15 eer ac only one ton units go to the wholesale chain for $600. Add $150 wholesale for the heat pump units.

    Pridiom is line made in north jersey somewhere. Seem to be decent and fairly cheap.

    Mitsubishi probably makes the best units.

    The fun ones are the multi zone units that will do up to four rooms from one outdoor unit, need multiple indoor units though.

  132. xolepa says:
    May 2, 2013 at 5:17 pm

    (130) They allow ‘self-installs’ but may need inspection regardless. Call NJ for details. Please let me know – I need to confirm before I order. Hmm. I may do both room over garage and basement, just for dehumidification, with a dual unit. I’ll look at the numbers

  133. Scrapple n'Ricin says:
    May 2, 2013 at 6:57 pm

    Trash barrel fires are the heating trend of the future.

  134. The Original NJ ExPat says:
    May 2, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Sorry, I don’t know the cost, but they probably would have complained more specifically if it was over $30k and they didn’t. I think they also finished, documented, and certified the job minutes before NJ ran out of the money they were paying people to remove underground tanks so they either didn’t get any money back or some reduced amount. I’m just surprised that a nice brick CH colonial built 25 years ago on a nice cul-de-sac is suddenly house-non-grata if it has an underground oil tank. They bought the house when it was about 5 years old in 1994 in Warren County. Why were they still putting oil tanks in the ground 25 years ago if it’s such an affront to nature this short time later? Also I need to understand what the deal is with water-softening systems. I buy and carry about 300 lbs of salt down to their basement twice or three times a year where it gets dumped in, 50 lb bag at a time, to their system just so I can’t really ever get the soap off myself in the shower? I guess my Polish grandparents in central PA had naturally soft water because that’s what their water felt like all the time with no treatment.

    Waiting In Rent says:
    May 2, 2013 at 3:46 pm
    Original,
    How much did the remediation cost, if you know or remember?
    My sellers have the same situation you are describing as your friend, except I offered to front the money and get it back at closing.
    They will realize that the oil tank is bigger issue for people because you don’t know the potential cost. It could just be $1500 to pull tank or it could cost over $200k because the oil leaked under the foundation and the dirt has to be removed the house supported.

    Okay onto the next property.

  136. Libtard at home says:
    May 2, 2013 at 9:23 pm

    Our multi has a certified decommissioned oil tank below the basement. Things were very different in the sellers market of the early 2000s. If I said, “Remove the tank.” The seller would simply sell the house to the next guy for like $20,000 more. Things were crazy in 2004. Of course today it’s a buyer’s market and demanding the oil tank be removed is status quo. I’m sure housing will get bubbly all over again at some point in the next 15 years, then I’ll sell the home (oil tank and all) to some other sucker who feels like if he doesn’t buy now, he’ll be priced out forever.

  137. Scrapple n'Ricin says:
    May 2, 2013 at 11:29 pm

    Any questions?

    “Nations are going bust. And the worse things get, the more desperate their tactics become. This isn’t the first time that the world has been in this position. This time is not different. History shows that there are serious, serious consequences to running unsustainably high debts and deficits. And those consequences have almost invariably involved pillaging people’s wealth, savings, livelihoods and liberties… either directly or indirectly. What’s happening right now is playing out in textbook fashion. More taxes, more debt, more printing, more confiscation, less freedom. Many people will resist the change and instead cling desperately to the old system – the cycle of debt and consumption that provided jobs, stability, and prosperity. These people will have their lives turned upside down because that system is gone forever. And in case it still weren’t obvious, here is three minutes of clarity from Ron Paul and Jim Rogers…”I would expect that there is going to be a lot more chaos still to come.” – Ron Paul; “They won’t take our bank accounts…they will take our retirement accounts.” – Jim Rogers

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-05-02/ron-paul-jim-rogers-government-theyll-use-force-and-intimidation

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    May 3, 2013 at 9:09 am

    Why do people own? Why do people rent? | New Jersey Real Estate Report diablo 3 gold http://www.flyd3.com/

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    May 3, 2013 at 11:03 am

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