From the Record:
Investors return for North Jersey real estate
A few months ago, a Hoboken multifamily building, The Artisan, sold for a record $569,000 per “door,” or apartment. The acquirer, a real estate investment management company, forked over $33.6 million overall for that nearly 60-unit asset.
Within weeks, two Edgewater apartment complexes, including the luxurious St. Moritz, were purchased for a total of $168.3 million by separate buyers, a large Massachusetts insurer and a giant Israeli investment firm.
After the tough years when buyers were reluctant to come to the table, investors are opening their checkbooks to buy multifamily residential, industrial and office real estate in North Jersey. The capital markets are looking more kindly on Bergen County and the Hudson River Gold Coast, drawn by the region’s lower prices compared with soaring markets in Manhattan and Brooklyn, the improving economy overall, low interest rates for financing, and the bargains available for Garden State properties versus what the cost would be to build such structures now.
“There’s a lot of capital out there,” said Andrew Merin, vice chairman of the Metropolitan Area Capital Markets Group of Cushman & Wakefield of New Jersey Inc. in East Rutherford.
Buyers range from the traditional, risk-averse institutional investors such as public and private real estate investment trusts, pension funds and insurance companies looking to buy trophy Class A properties to regional players making deals.
It’s a far different scenario than during the Great Recession, when few banks were lending and one of the few properties selling in North Jersey were distressed office buildings. The hottest sectors today are multifamily — witness Hoboken and Edgewater — and industrial, area real estate executives said.
“The activity is certainly stronger than it’s been in the past couple of years,” said Joe Garibaldi, managing director of real estate firm JLL’s Capital Markets Group in East Rutherford. “Fundamentals have stabilized or are improving, depending [on] which sector you’re looking at. … The good news is that on every deal that we have in the market, there’s numerous buyers that are showing up.”
I’ve been reading this board for years now and I’ve thrown a few posts in once in a blue moon. Now I’d like to ask for some real estate advice and I feel like this topic is at the heart of this board’s purpose though it often strays far from here.
I bought a 700 sq foot 2 bedroom condo in Hoboken in October 2005. My wife and I lived there had our first child and when we became pregnant with number 2 needed to move on. This was summer 2008 and the condo value had dropped significantly from the price we paid. The original purchase was made with one of those 80/20 loans. I think I put 1000$ down in my 2005 purchase. We decided to become landlords. D tenants. We rented our place out and rented a bigger place in Hoboken.
After three years of doing that our oldest was getting ready for kindergarten and we decided to look into moving out of Hoboken and into a house and a yard. We ended up purchasing a home in one of these nice Bergen county towns fast eddy loves to hate. We bought this place in June 2011. It was the least expensive or 2nd least place on the market in the town we are in. All the while we’ve been renting our place in Hoboken out. I think we’ve had one empty month in the 6 or so years we’ve been landlords.
The original mortgage I took out was an 80/20. The 80 was a 5 yr arm that adjusts based upon the one year treasury bill. It is a traditional style loans (I pay interest and principal) and bc of the low interest rate environment it sits at 2.85%. It adjusts in the fall and I don’t expect much of a change when it does. I do realize that it won’t last forever but when the good times end I’m not so sure.
The 20 part is a home equity line of credit. It’s been interest only and that’s all I’ve been
paying for the last 9 years. That adjusts monthly is tied into some Wall Street journal rate and has been about 4.85 for a very long time now.
Anyway, to my question… I rent the place out and I’m short about $450 dollars per month when all of my expenses are taken into account. So I lose about 5500 per year. The mortgage principal is being paid down at about 750$ per month so I am paying off about 9000$ in principal per year.
I am at the point where I can sell it and probably walk away with nothing. I don’t think I can get much above what I currently owe plus realtor fees, etc.
Would you all take that deal and get out or would you keep the place and let your tenant pay off a large portion of your mortgage? I think if the rent was covering my expenses entirely I’d just keep the place indefinitely but dropping 500 per month when my 401k is not maxed and my kids college savings account is being filled much slower than it should not to mention just my monthly living expenses.
I feel like my question is not a no brainer and I’d love if I could stimulate some debate from the regulars here on what is the best thing to do from here and why.
Another canary bites the dust. This, and the associated weakening of the Right To Financial Privacy Act (a misnamed law if there ever was one), happened three years ago but was buried so deep, no one took notice. I looked at the legislation and this one is bad, real bad, because of the real violence it does to rule of law, constitutional principles, and the potential for broad use.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/social-security-treasury-target-hundreds-of-thousands-of-taxpayers-for-parents-old-debts/2014/04/10/74ac8eae-bf4d-11e3-bcec-b71ee10e9bc3_story.html?hpid=z1
So why haven’t the media been screaming about this? IMHO, because a republican didn’t sign it.
1 – my uninformed, uneducated gut reaction is to take the deal and GTFO.
it is the extreme right wingers’ fault
BC lurker says:
April 14, 2014 at 6:57 am
I’ve been reading this board for years now and I’ve thrown a few posts in once in a blue moon. Now I’d like to ask for some real estate advice and I feel like this topic is at the heart of this board’s purpose though it often strays far from here.
BC lurker says:
April 14, 2014 at 6:57 am
I’ve been reading this board for years now and I’ve thrown a few posts in once in a blue moon. Now I’d like to ask for some real estate advice and I feel like this topic is at the heart of this board’s purpose though it often strays far from here.
[4] anon
typical anon conversation at register at Whole Foods:
cashier: “paper or plastic?”
anon: “it is the extreme right wingers’ fault”
[1] BC
I’m with street. GTFO.
Unless BC stands for Boston College. Then I suggest you stay the course.
BC Lurker.
Your HELOC is the “Sword of Damocles”. You said is 9 yrs old and you have been paying “only interest”. Most HELOC recast as a full loan on the 10 yrs, so expect principal + interest, and variable interest at that, soon for the true complete monthly payment of the HELOC, on top of your ARM mortgage. What you are going to experience with the HELOC at 10yrs is something that is expected to hit nationwide and make matters worse for underwater homeowners.
So find a way of re-financing the HELOC, mortgage or both, if you decide to keep the Hoboken condo as accidental landlord. Other choices are, stop being an accidental landlord or get yourself and the wife side jobs to be able to handle the HELOC monthly payment when it recast into a full loan at the 10yr mark.
Was April 13, 2014 the first board “goose egg” for posts? Zero
Nom: I still remember being with a JAPpy SDT girl at Wegman’s in Ithaca circa 1987……..the cashier said “paper or plastic”? She said…..”oh, I’ll pay cash”
Comrade Nom DePlume says:
April 14, 2014 at 8:09 am
[4] anon
typical anon conversation at register at Whole Foods:
cashier: “paper or plastic?”
anon: “it is the extreme right wingers’ fault”
You can’t say you weren’t warned that more of this was going to happen:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101580301
[9] chifi
That’s redundant. All SDTs are J@ppy.
GTFO if you can get out clear without bring cash to the table do it.
BC: If you view your situation from a risk perspective, the only answer is to GTFO…you can only have your financing blow up or your rent roll blow up, with very little upside and you have a negative cost of carry……and there is a decent shot that something really bad might happen to the economy…..
Was out in Chicago this weekend, left at an ungodly hour on Friday and didn’t get back until late last night. I know yesterdays post went into “no comments” mode (anti-spam feature) – which would have locked everyone out from posting. Really didn’t have a chance to put up a new post.
That and the weather was beautiful.
BC Lurker two comments – First you and your wife do not own a condo as you have zero equity. Second you mentioned you moved when you and your wife became pregant. How does that work do you take turns being pregant? Do each of you give birth to half a child then doctors connect them together?
BTW seriously, have you been declaring the rental income and depreciating the property?
I ask because your “break even” on condo may result in a lot of taxes as you have to take the depreciation back as income. Of course this is based on income. If you earn to much to get the tax write off for depreciation and has just been building it up it will be a wash.
Unless you can get rid of 20% HELOC, then refinance at a fixed rate you have a bit of a ticking time bomb.
C
USD Citigroup Inc
Last [Tick] $47.56[-]
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YEA BABY – !
#1
Did you take into account how much depreciation and deductions you are gaining in your taxes?
BC Lurker,
I rent the place out and I’m short about $450 dollars per month when all of my expenses are taken into account.
It’s been interest only and that’s all I’ve been paying for the last 9 years.
We ended up purchasing a home in one of these nice Bergen county towns fast eddy loves to hate.
So, you’re losing $450 dollars per month and you’re paying the interest on another loan which just adds to the loss. The only question I would ask is who talked you into all of this in the first place? The answer is not whether you should get out but how quickly you’re going to begin making the phone calls today. And as far as me hating those “nice” Bergen County towns; I think most know my deal by now. Just because everyone else is jumping off the bridge, it doesn’t mean I should follow. And let’s not contain it to those Bergen County towns because I know people that bought homes in Northern Toms River because they were told it was prestigious. It’s not the towns that I hate, it’s the stup1dity of people playing with money they don’t have which directly f.ucks up my plans.
BC Lurker,
As someone that had to guide a very stubborn relative in your position, you are like a plane about to stall. Few go bankrupt overnight, they just bleed to death, and you are bleeding.
Don’t know or care about the numbers or particulars, but these “rescue template” has a good track record. You could say is IMF approved.
1 -Raise cash and prepare for accessing more:
-Cut expenses to bare bone/Work overtime/Extra Job/ See if you can raise rent without having tenant run away.
-Prepare to access tax deferred accounts if need be. So drop 401k contributions to 0 or minimum required for matching if any, put your 401k in safe investments and look up the rules for loans (usually up to 50% of value with a 50k limit), and last resort take “unqualified” money from college accounts like 529, esa,etc if any, you’ll get hit with 10% penalty but you have a lot of deductions to cover up.
2 – Reason for raising cash is because more likely than not you are going to HAVE to use it to get rid off condo. Save cash for closing, and if possible use it to pay down some principal in HELOC over the next few months you have left before it recast as full 2nd mortgage ARM loan; this way you have to bring less at the closing.
3- After you get rid off condo, then you can resume your life’s cruising altitude and rebuild/pay off 401k, 529, etc.
Lesson learned, don’t be an accidental landlord.
What if the government guaranteed you an income?By David R. Wheeler
updated 8:25 AM EDT, Mon April 14, 2014
http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/14/opinion/wheeler-minimum-income/index.html?hpt=hp_t4
(CNN) — First, the bad news: Even if the economy improves, middle-class career paths will continue to disappear as globalization and technological innovation render more jobs obsolete.
Now, the good news: The fear, stress and humiliation caused by unemployment (and underemployment) can be alleviated with a simple solution.
And now, the even-better news: This simple solution is starting to find backers on both sides of the political spectrum.
David WheelerA monthly cash payment to every American, no questions asked, would solve several of our most daunting challenges. It’s called a basic income, and it’s cheaper and much more effective than our current malfunctioning safety net, which costs nearly $1 trillion per year.
The idea of a basic income, sometimes called a guaranteed minimum income or a negative income tax, has been discussed for decades by notable economists like Milton Friedman. In the late 1960s and 1970s, the idea had bipartisan backing before losing steam. Recently, in the face of a sputtering economy, a weak job market and rising income inequality, it has been gathering supporters at an ever-quickening pace.
In fact, just last month, former U.S. Labor Secretary Robert Reich called a basic income guarantee “almost inevitable.”
re # 1- When the market corrects and it will there will be lots of Wall St layoffs and plenty of inventory in Hoboken for rentals. GTFO while the getting is good.
re # 5 – The Whole Foods by me is staffed with dozens of 20 something hipsters. The one working the register last night said to another cashier that when he was interviewing that they were playing Bob Dillion over the muzak system and it was then knew that Whole Foods was his destiny.
House for sale in my neighborhood. My realtor was running the open house yesterday. I stopped by to talk shop. It’s a 3 br with solid bones for $500k on 1/2 acre, it needs a complete reno and blowout to make it a 4 br etc. Not too much inventory in my neck of the woods that isn’t on a busy road, open house was pretty busy. Kind of weird standing next to the realtor talking to people about what they are looking for in a house, I would not want to be a Realtor that is for sure. One contractor came in and said he would do this and that to the place etc to make it livable.
There is an open invite to my place for steaks and cigars if you buy it.
re: “Lesson learned, don’t be an accidental landlord.’
CoWorker- who traded up a few years ago to his 2nd wife’s desire to live in the boonies in a center hall finally sold the condo he purchased back in 98. Last tenant took him for a ride. Eviction was days away and his contract to sell was expiring. He even offered the tenant extra $$$ to GTFO. They finally did leave after the eviction notice showed up. The lawyers took him for a ride too.
Even if you have to bring cash to the table, GTFO, since every two months is another $1K drained. Hopefully you have some gains to offset from the losses on your RE investment.
GTFO if you can get out clear without bring cash to the table do it.
Nom [10];
I noted this line:
“Walgreens’ management seems more hesitant to pull the trigger near-term due to perceived political risks.”
Translation: “The Chicago thugs in the White House aren’t going to like this one bit.”
Con’t [26];
Walgreens is gearing up to get the “Toyota treatment”, while CVS gets the GM-glide.
nice pharmacy you got there be a shame if something happened to it
nope no one predicted this
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonchang/2014/04/13/china-property-collapse-has-begun/?partner=yahootix
grim seriously ph*rmacy trip the filter
Pain [30];
Think about it: we’d be flodded with spam for (fake) meds usually sold using pictures of people in clawfoot tubs.
Moose I realized it after I posted it. Free, Cheap V!agra!!!!
So I guess this means that they are aware that it is a di#k move? They are just worried about the political consequences of this move.
So who is going to make up for the taxes lost on this transaction? You are ok with it being passed on to you moose? Because you know that’s what will happen. The politicians need to put an end to this process of moving off-shore for the sake of avoiding taxes, it will destroy our country by taking our jobs and taking our tax money. Eventually, it will suck this country dry.
Anon E. Moose says:
April 14, 2014 at 10:43 am
Nom [10];
I noted this line:
“Walgreens’ management seems more hesitant to pull the trigger near-term due to perceived political risks.”
Translation: “The Chicago thugs in the White House aren’t going to like this one bit.”
[33] Michael
So put a stop to it. Close Door Number 2 to inversion transactions and foreign acquisition. Anyone care to tell Michael what he’s won?
Appreciate the feedback. Accidental landlord, that was the term I was looking for in my initial post. Describes me exactly. I am aware of the heloc issues and that is really the reason the idea of selling got started more seriously. I called my mortgage guy and asked him about refinancing and other options. He told me to sell the place. Since it would seem to be in his interest to refinance, I took his advice seriously and talked some other people who’s opinions in this area I respect.
The place is currently for sale and I’m just trying to figure out who aggressive to price it. It seems the consensus is to get out with no votes to keep it.
What then constitute a good rental investment? Just curious, not arguing mine is that, just wondering what one looks like?
Also with regards to depreciation. Quesition: if you say your place is with 1million and depreciate it for a few years down to 850000, then sell for 800000 what happens to your taxes in that situation. Your still at a 50k loss no?
Wow, I guess I wasn’t far off when I said we need to pay off the poor if we can’t provide them with jobs, otherwise it will cause civil unrest. You guys called me a lefty for it, and here we are with Friedman supporting the same idea. It’s not about redistribution, it’s about keeping the system functioning, as to avoid revolutions by throwing crumbs to the poor. Without these crumbs, people will get desperate and do desperate things.
“The idea of a basic income, sometimes called a guaranteed minimum income or a negative income tax, has been discussed for decades by notable economists like Milton Friedman. In the late 1960s and 1970s, the idea had bipartisan backing before losing steam. Recently, in the face of a sputtering economy, a weak job market and rising income inequality, it has been gathering supporters at an ever-quickening pace.”
[36] Michael,
The demogrant is always discussed. That doesn’t mean it is endorsed. I’ve discussed it so does that make me in favor of it?
But you hit the nail on the head: it is about “pay us or we riot.” In fact, this very point has been made more by the mainstream left than I have heard in, well, ever. It is because of this mentality, or rather the “self help” variant of it, that many are buying guns.
Michael,
Here’s a little light reading on inversion transactions.
http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1718&context=njilb
Back to the salt mines. Big day tomorrow.
Whoops, this was just too NJ centric not to include. Best part is that he shows some NJ love.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-27/companies-fleeing-taxes-pay-ceos-extra-as-law-backfires.html
Now I’m out. See you tonight.
Anyway, to my question… I rent the place out and I’m short about $450 dollars per month when all of my expenses are taken into account. So I lose about 5500 per year. The mortgage principal is being paid down at about 750$ per month so I am paying off about 9000$ in principal per year.
I am at the point where I can sell it and probably walk away with nothing. I don’t think I can get much above what I currently owe plus realtor fees, etc.
Would you all take that deal and get out or would you keep the place and let your tenant pay off a large portion of your mortgage? I think if the rent was covering my expenses entirely I’d just keep the place indefinitely but dropping 500 per month when my 401k is not maxed and my kids college savings account is being filled much slower than it should not to mention just my monthly living expenses.
I feel like my question is not a no brainer and I’d love if I could stimulate some debate from the regulars here on what is the best thing to do from here and why.
Not being serious here, but I found people in your position resort to not paying their mortgage but still renting the place out. It takes years for them to foreclose and it becomes an income stream. My friend is working a legal case where they are trying to foreclose in this woman in an affluent area. She has four properties that she does this. She’s taking in 100k in rent and paying nothing. She has a lawyer who’s solely their to constantly delay the legal proceedings so that she continues to collect money.
jesus, I need to sleep, my grammar and spelling are atrocious right now.
Real estate from a rental perspective depends almost 100% on purchase price. I own a rental condo and in my building if you own it mortgage free. Taxes, maint, insurance is going to run you almost $1,000 a month. Units rent for about $2,100 a month
Since the building is an old condo most people bought units in 80s and 90s. But we have Sales back then I can see are in a range from 1980 for 45K to 1999 for 180K.
Prices shot up from 1999 to 2002 to $280 a unit.
Then from 2002 all the way to 2007 units shot up from 280K to 480k.
Today units are from between 260K and 290K.
The few folks who paid between 360K and 480K the math will never work out.
Bc lurker says:
April 14, 2014 at 12:32 pm
Appreciate the feedback. Accidental landlord, that was the term I was looking for in my initial post. Describes me exactly. I am aware of the heloc issues and that is really the reason the idea of selling got started more seriously. I called my mortgage guy and asked him about refinancing and other options. He told me to sell the place. Since it would seem to be in his interest to refinance, I took his advice seriously and talked some other people who’s opinions in this area I respect.
The place is currently for sale and I’m just trying to figure out who aggressive to price it. It seems the consensus is to get out with no votes to keep it.
What then constitute a good rental investment? Just curious, not arguing mine is that, just wondering what one looks like?
Also with regards to depreciation. Quesition: if you say your place is with 1million and depreciate it for a few years down to 850000, then sell for 800000 what happens to your taxes in that situation. Your still at a 50k loss no?
Nom #39 think it is a fun read living it on the other not so much fun. then again I’m still employed for now
http://www.zillow.com/blog/rental-property-depreciation-144131/http://www.zillow.com/blog/rental-property-depreciation-144131/You are still selling it at market price
“Also with regards to depreciation. Quesition: if you say your place is with 1million and depreciate it for a few years down to 850000, then sell for 800000 what happens to your taxes in that situation. Your still at a 50k loss no?
http://www.zillow.com/blog/rental-property-depreciation-144131/
Michael [33];
So I guess this means that they are aware that it is a di#k move?
They’re aware is will cost them 75 cps * 950 MM shares. When was the last time you wrote a check for $700,000,000 for anything, much less just to prove you’re a ‘good citizen’? Lestists sure are free and easy spending other people’s money.
They are just worried about the political consequences of this move.
They’re keenly aware of the Thugee administrations’ willingness to “punish [their] enemies.”
So who is going to make up for the taxes lost on this transaction?
Why does anyone have to “make up for the lost taxes?” The idea that the government might spend less money than you’d like them to doesn’t even exist in your world does it?
My advice to that BC lurky guy is to default on the mortgage and collect as much rent as you can before you get FK.
Also, bet on Arsenal to be out of Champions League next year.
Clot you know what your probably right
BTW, I went to three open houses yesterday because it was nice and I wanted to take a ride. This is still a real estate blog, isn’t it?
Open Houses are a complete waste of time, especially now that there is zero inventory. If you need to have an open house, it means the joint is seriously over-priced or it smells like 40 dudes just p1ssed in your basement. Which brings me to house number one:
A 3/2 split, in Paramus, the taxes at $7800 which at least, doesn’t induce vomiting. The house was priced at 589K and is 100K too high. Nothing was done, it was dirty, shabby, smelled and needed a complete redo inside and out. The realtor was practically walking back to the car with me begging for a good word. Oh, and route 17 was behind it within total earshot. Next.
House two in Washington Twp: A beautiful CHC, immaculate inside and out BUT the Parkway was in earshot. Based on the gorgeous deep property, I might’ve overlooked it. Price tag was 800K plus for this one with 5/3.5. It’s too big, over my limit but you needed nothing to do but move in. The had the in-ground pool going in full swing to pretty up the yard even more. Everything was immaculate. I wish I could find this house with a 4/2.5 that was even close to being this clean.
House Three was in Upper Saddle River; a 3/1 ranch that was nicely done, renovated, very quaint, all new but this one was too small. Only one full bath wasn’t going to do it when you have a family. It would be good for empty nesters.
The real push needs to come from a letter. So-called multiple listings is a bunch of bullsh1t. If you’re expected to spend north of a half million dollars, you shouldn’t have to settle for someone else’s pig sh1t of a house. If you really want to buy in this environment, you need to send personal letters to house dwellers and ask if they’re interested. The house tour guides are hiding whatever good stuff sells so you need to push them out of the way and save the seller the ext0rtion fee.
(50) What were the $stats on that ranch? Was it expandable? U-S-R seems like a nice town. didn’t Tricky Dicky live there?
BC: From the point you bought it and it served as your primary residence……any losses incurred are personal losses and cannot be deducted. You would need to evaluate the FMV of the house on the day it was converted to a rental. You have been depreciating the condo down from that date. So in your example, you get to deduct a $50K capital loss, but that number is not correct. It is more likely that you $1M was worth $800K when you converted it. You depreciated $150K so it is worth $650K on the books and you sell it for a $800K gain……sound more plausible?
Bc lurker says:
April 14, 2014 at 12:32 pm
Also with regards to depreciation. Quesition: if you say your place is with 1million and depreciate it for a few years down to 850000, then sell for 800000 what happens to your taxes in that situation. Your still at a 50k loss no?
$800K with a $150K gain…
Xolepa [51],
It was 550K with 8K plus in taxes. The yard was too small to go out the back. I guess going up a level would be an option but that’s not my deal at this stage of the game. The septic is new and it’s well water as is the whole town. I had an offer on a house on the same street a little over a year ago.
Tricky D1ck was in Saddle River.
#35
you can sell at the market price of the rental property and not pay depreciation recapture tax as long as you invest the proceeds in another rental property . If you sold at a loss the difference is deductible assuming it was a rental property from the start.
[46] moose,
Feeding the troll? The problem of capital flight, and that is what this is, is not a political problem of one side or the other. But I find that those on the left whom I challenge to not simply rail about the problem but propose a solution haven’t given much thought to outcomes.
It is one thing to pass the Levin bill or adopt Obama’s 2009 recommendations but that causes as much pain as it cures. If an inversion would cut taxes by X dollars but leave mfg and hq in the US, and that is bad, consider what an acquisition by a foreign parent would really cost when the law says you don’t get the tax benefit if you keep significant operations in the US. Hmmm, now how do you resolve that? What would the foreign CEO do? And is he a “traitor” if he does?
P.S., we are already seeing that route. Takeovers by unrelated foreign companies are up as much as inversions.
P.P.S., you can achieve a similar resulting sucking sound by doing away with NOLs.
[56] yome,
That assumes he was treating it as a rental for tax purposes. It isn’t an assumption I would make blindly. And the IRS is tightening up 1031 exchanges. Just saying.
Moose, nom- Here are some comments from that article street posted about a basic income. I have one more post coming with another set of quotes to dissect.
“It is easy for the rich and powerful to steal the fruits of the labors of the workers. If you cannot understand that then take a look at Walmart. They do it each and everyday. If Walmart did not need the workers then why would they have them? If Walmart did not have the workers then how much money would Walmart make? It is easy, just not honestly defensible. Yet here you are an idiot trying to defend the likes of Walmart.
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pragmatist nitridr
21 minutes ago
First of all, Walmart does not force people to work for them. If they could get jobs somewhere else making more money I’m guessing they would. Second, I’m agnostic about Walmart but to the Walmart bashers who complain about its treatment of workers I would argue that the money Walmart saves its working class shoppers far FAR outweighs whatever negatives you could pin on them as an employer.
1 Reply
One other person is typing…
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Austin J.O pragmatist
6 minutes ago
How about $2 Billion + dollars? That is how much Walmart workers draw every year in medicaid, welfare, and food stamp benefits. Therefore, their “cost savings” only benefit me if I choose to shop there. I don’t choose to shop there because I detest their company and their uniforms with every fiber of my Red White and Blue being. Therefore, I am being robbed to pay THEIR employee’s benefits. This angers me. It angers me a lot. Whatever “cost savings” they can offer to their shoppers, they can take them, and they can go to he!!.”
aedelaossa Bruce
32 minutes ago
The only money the government has is what it takes from those who earn it? Really? Is that where the 83 billion a month is coming from that the government creates for QE1, 2 ,3, 4, etc.?
Nom, moose- I posted these comments to hear your reply. I tend to take this position and wanted to hear your 2 cents on this.
afna-mcjny jo
2 hours ago
robert thinks that all problems are liberals trying to take his country away from him. So any solution to change this downward trajectory will be rejected. We have tried it his way. Given the rich the whole country. where are the jobs. Where is the freedom? robert and those like him, don’t think things through. nor do they acknowledge the current failures OF THEIR OWN IDEAS. nothing could be more inferior that position given our economy today.
11 Reply
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Margaret Canfield afna-mcjny
2 hours ago
You can’t be too far left or too far right on any policy. You can’t keep stealing from the most productive people in the country without seeing them slowly trickle out of the US. Meanwhile you can’t give all the power to the corps. b/c most of them will just loophole the system to death. You have to find a happy medium.
7 Reply
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afna-mcjny Margaret Canfield
2 hours ago
is that your concern? that the rich will leave the marketplace? worry not. the vaccum left behind will make room for new players. The rich exist at our forebearance not the other way around. Do you know how a job is created? consumer demand for a good or service exceeds the current labor supply. that’s it. The money is coming from us. and rather than continuing the flow of resources from the top to the bottom and back, they have trapped it. placing the entire economy is jeopardy. and you are worried about them leaving? I would like to give them first class tickets and free drinks if they will take their bought and sold politicians with them out the door. We don’t need them. THEY NEED US.
13 Reply
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oracle afna-mcjny
an hour ago
If it is so easy to be rich, they why aren’t more people rich? If it was so easy to be successful, then why aren’t more people successful?
If you think you can do it, why don’t you do it?
1 Reply
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afna-mcjny oracle
an hour ago
like many sheep like thinkers, you don’t ask real questions. you make assumptions, then you ask the other person to answer your assumptions. Dumb. First things first, I have acquired my knowledge of capitalism from being a capitalist. I run a technology company. A successful one. and my company requires a consumer base that has the money to buy my products and services. This is basic reality. If my clients clients have no money, then I cannot charge my fees. If demand for the service disappears then I cannot supply it. Two, because I don’t have political allies to eschew the process, I actually have to serve and take care of my food sources. These larger and more connected corporations can form illegal and quasi legal monopolies by lobbying to change the rules of capitalism such that they are longer behold to the laws of supply and demand. In the end, it’s an act of suicide. By destroying the consumer base, they are destroying the food source. I can think of nothing more foolish, more short-sighted, more myopic, then poisoning your own money source. for you, get out of the business of making assumptions. ask real questions, then judge the individual’s answers. Then maybe, you might actually learn something rather than tunnel visioning your own knowledge. food for thought.
Will come back later after michael has finished taking his dump.
62- I’m just pushing you to think. I put those posts up for the ideas. Please tell me why these ideas in the following posts are dead wrong. These two posts summarize my beliefs that we have debated on here for weeks, but have yet to put it to rest with a worthy enough argument. So please, tell me why these ideas are dead wrong, because I think they are pretty spot on, and are the direct cause of the problems in our economy.
“is that your concern? that the rich will leave the marketplace? worry not. the vaccum left behind will make room for new players. The rich exist at our forebearance not the other way around. Do you know how a job is created? consumer demand for a good or service exceeds the current labor supply. that’s it. The money is coming from us. and rather than continuing the flow of resources from the top to the bottom and back, they have trapped it. placing the entire economy is jeopardy. and you are worried about them leaving? I would like to give them first class tickets and free drinks if they will take their bought and sold politicians with them out the door. We don’t need them. THEY NEED US.”
“like many sheep like thinkers, you don’t ask real questions. you make assumptions, then you ask the other person to answer your assumptions. Dumb. First things first, I have acquired my knowledge of capitalism from being a capitalist. I run a technology company. A successful one. and my company requires a consumer base that has the money to buy my products and services. This is basic reality. If my clients clients have no money, then I cannot charge my fees. If demand for the service disappears then I cannot supply it. Two, because I don’t have political allies to eschew the process, I actually have to serve and take care of my food sources. These larger and more connected corporations can form illegal and quasi legal monopolies by lobbying to change the rules of capitalism such that they are longer behold to the laws of supply and demand. In the end, it’s an act of suicide. By destroying the consumer base, they are destroying the food source. I can think of nothing more foolish, more short-sighted, more myopic, then poisoning your own money source. for you, get out of the business of making assumptions. ask real questions, then judge the individual’s answers. Then maybe, you might actually learn something rather than tunnel visioning your own knowledge. food for thought.”
63- you guys claim these wealthy individuals to be the innovators, hence why they deserve the wealth. Besides jobs, name me one billionaire innovator in the past 15 years. Almost all the innovations came from workers in their companies, of course they get rich off of other guys ideas. No different than Tesla (the brains) getting robbed by Edison. Edison gets the patents, fame, and wealth….his workers get to have a job.
How about this. Do you guys think the billionaires in Russia are the innovators or are they taking advantage of the Russian people? Remember what happened after the soviet economy collapsed and took on western style capitalist economy in the 90’s. How did these billionaires accrue their billions in a new capitalist style govt?
Michael,
Who said they are wrong? I view all of these things as relative. Those advocating for steady-state economics fail to understand markets. They worry about the monopolistic tendency of capitalism but also ignore that it provides its very own antidote. It is also true that if the rich leave, others will take their place. But that is an inefficient and destructive process. Those driven off will profit elsewhere and those taking their place will demand a risk premium. Further, look who is exiting and who is entering our marketplace. Less domestic ownership and more foreign ownership, meaning that our current account balance is still unbalanced, and the fisc loses revenue due to tax treaties.
Your solution is to tax and redistribute. Fine but understand that this is a drag on growth, meaning that survivors seek efficiencies elsewhere by cutting, outsourcing, adopting technology, etc. It is easy to see that redistribution produces the very death spiral you complain of from the opposite dynamic, concentration of wealth. Further, redistributive policies impose risk that is reflected in price. There is a reason things made here cost more and one input is taxes. It has become such a significant input that we now see change that is tax driven. The old saying “don’t let the tax tail wag the dog” is dead. Taxes are the dog. And people and corporations adjust to the new reality.
Finally, it must be said that I don’t think our wealthy are overtaxed. But I do think C corporations are overtaxed, earned income is overtaxed, and the higher earning middle class especially overtaxed. And I think that reforming the tax code to address what I perceive as “unfair” will go a long way toward promoting sustainable growth.
Kill the money tree and it doesn’t give you any more fruit. Nourish it and it grows and thrives.
Tesla ‘ s founder Musk? Google ‘ and Amazon ‘ s founders have all been innovators. There have been many companies founded or led by innovators. Charles Schwab.
You spend so much time following the envious that you have become blind to the accomplishments of many great innovators.
[64] michael
Isn’t Zuckerberg a billionaire? Or is that outside the statute of limitation? How about Mark Cuban? I’m pretty sure his partner became a billionaire. Richard Bransin, Stephan Persson and Carlos Slim are pretty recently rich but I’m not sure they invented anything. Do they count?
BTW, should be Branson. Can’t even blame it on the VR software.
Also, Uncle Sol, as we used to call him, comes to mind. But not sure if he crossed the billion threshold.
66- Nom, you should be a teacher. That was a powerful post. Very powerful. I finally get what you are saying. Thank you. That is not easy to do. All this while, I thought you were attacking the problems of my ideas as faux, but this was not the case. You are attacking my solutions. I think I’m finally seeing the light, that you are trying to provide.
67- Rags, it’s not that I don’t think they are innovators, I just think the whole team has more to do with it than an individual.
For me, this is “The nail in the coffin” on the debate.
” It is easy to see that redistribution produces the very death spiral you complain of from the opposite dynamic, concentration of wealth. “
これらの戦略が開発される方法は、支出パターンと資産を持つ任意の負債または問題領域を指摘し、クライアントの現在の財務状況を分析することです。これらのタイプの要因を使用して、適切な管理プログラムは、そのクライアントのために特別に製造することができる。
彼らは、高い住宅や光熱費は今年、人々の周り飛散するあまり現金を持っているという事実を指摘し、まだ昨年の手形を返済と画像が小売業者のために悲観的に見えている人々の量にすることを追加するだけでなく、それらはまだ昨年の法案をクリアしようとしているよう。
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