From CNN:
US home prices stay near record high, even as sales drop in June
US home prices continued to fall in June compared to a year ago, but that may not be much comfort to home buyers. Even after falling, June’s median price hit the second-highest monthly median price on record going back to 1999, according to a National Association of Realtors report released Thursday.
The median existing home price was $410,200 last month, just 0.9% less than the all-time high from one year ago of $413,800. It marked the fifth month of year-over-year drops in median home sale prices.
Inventory of homes on the market remains historically low, as current homeowners are refusing to sell and hunkering down with their ultra-low mortgage rates that might be half or less of current rates.
“There are simply not enough homes for sale,” said Lawrence Yun, NAR chief economist. “The market can easily absorb a doubling of inventory.”
Sales of existing homes — which include single-family homes, townhomes, condominiums and co-ops — dropped below expectations and were down 3.3% from May to June. Annually, sales were down 18.9% from a year ago, and the seasonally adjusted annualized sales pace dropped from 5.13 million units a year ago to 4.16 million in June.
“Relatively high mortgage rates near 7% and historically low inventory of existing homes on market is hindering sales activity,” said Yun.
June’s sales pace was the lowest since January and the lowest pace for the month of June (typically among the busiest months of the year) since 2009.
Frist bitchez!
Second: Party on!!
Incredible story about Ivermectin pushing, anti-vax-insurrectionist Dr Simone Gold and the den of thieves and grifters she created. “How a squad of MAGA warriors flush with cash turned on each other” via @FT @inminivanhell
Hey Fab,
Good luck. Sounds about right. It is amazing how many take-home projects and skill assessments have propped up. Looking for purple squirrel. Better be willing to pay up if anyone passes their expectations. Just remember, 25% more if you have a job before 2020. That is inflation alone. Go on recruiting hell on reddit if ever want to see the insanity of today’s market. It is 50% funny, 25% BS, 25% f-in sad.
That’s known as targeted propaganda, rfk jr coined it yesterday. Someone says that ivermectin, which is safe and free, is a better option than an experimental shot and the propagandists will call you anti vax.
His opening statement was devastating. Kaboom. Worse even than the whistleblowers and the five million bribe for the big guy. The left better fire up the censorship apparatus.
Fabs, other people here are more informed than I but the State Street family of funds have a number of offerings to express sector or macro views with good liquidity and expense ratios. I’ve used XLF, XBI, XRT in the past. Many also offer liquid option chains for added flexibility of protection or cost reduction.
Pumps, good for you brother, sincerely. Point of clarification…I don’t advise on here (or anywhere for that matter), just lay out my analysis of pros, cons, risks, and rewards. Never said not to buy DNA, just strongly cautioned you against your 100x target (and clearly recall saying you may see 3.00 but even with that target it would not be the sandbox I play in). Also, be careful in taxable accounts, very highly unlikely over the long term you are going to beat a broad buy and hold strategy trying to time straight up equities with a 50% haircut right out of the box to the gubmint. My dashboard has my net returns vs. indices and the day that spread closes I’m long and holding. If you’re looking to hedge some outsize gains look at some call writes or even google ‘zero cost collar’. GL.
MTA addresses their budget deficit, with small fare increases good through 2027. NJ Transit faces a 900 million budget hole, its ignored.
US home prices continued to fall in June compared to a year ago…
Not in the tri-state area. Dream of a price, hold an open house, sift through the pile of offers at the end of the day and get the ‘under contract’ stamp ready.
Fyi, went to a Mom and Pop burger place last night that specializes in specific cuts of meat for hamburgers. Four people, just the hamburger order, water all around… $102.00 w/o the tip. That’s four hamburgers that come with a side of fries or salad. Party on, everyone’s rich.
Fast: Don’t fight it! Party on, when it collapses, who cares.
I hope JFK Jr. gets the nod or Manchin goes 3rd party. I went to see progressive freaks eating crayons amidst wailing tears as they bang their heads against their safe room walls.
3b,
I claim to be 1% African American, I’m getting reparations when I spend all my money on jet skis, $20 hamburgers, cruises and vacations to Sao Tome and Principe.
Damn dude you are one dumb muthrffucker.
Question of the day:
Do liberal males wipe front to back or back to front after they pee?
RIP Tony Bennett. He was the last show we did at the Count Basie Theatre in March 2020 before the pandemic shutdown. A true gentleman and kind guy.
Chi,
To answer your question I could find out but it would be something they would terminate me for should I get caught. We are not allowed to look into a chart of a patient that we don’t have a work reason to.
You need to do some stealthy sleuthing. Neighbors, friends, colleagues, PoPo, or family members. Not sure if you said there was a funeral, but if it hasn’t happened you could go.
If it was a homicide, or a legal/lawsuit issue, then you can check those avenues.
Good luck finding out what you need. But usually when I see silent things in a young person it’s a drug issue or suicide- Something like 30 year old dies suddenly-then no more info. Most don’t ever want to talk about it until years later.
“What about giving some single mothers money back so they could buy clothing for their children, or dental care, or a car that runs?”
Red herring.
Nope, not a red herring.
Had I not been able to handle the issue on my own, which was quite a bit of work at the time as I had just been married and suddenly needed a 10k well drilled, I came close to being in the grasp of that parasitic lender. I was working two jobs, fixing a home, and used all of my savings for a down payment.
Rich people don’t understand this, their mommies and daddies lend them money. I had no rich parents, and in fact, when I needed this loan, I had no existing parents at all.
But that parasitic company was going to azz rape me financially, then “donate” my azz raped money to someone else other than giving me a break.
So yeah, if you are extorting money from hard working people who aren’t “rich enough” to get loans at cheap rates like the connected in America, and you turn enough of a massive profit like he did, then yes, you can donate to whomever you want. Putting his name on the building is so sweet. He could put a plaque in the hospital listing the names of all of the individuals who he was charging 30 percent interest on as those people actually provided the “donated” money.
A strong centrist third party presidential candidate would be Trump’s big hope for getting elected, given that the majority of voters reject him. He could win with a plurality. But even a dead Joe Biden could probably beat him again 1 on 1, the same way that brain dead tattoo guy beat Trump’s candidate in Pennsylvania. Is Biden allowed to run if he’s dead? Or it basically becomes a vote for Kamala?
You guys do realize that Trump will be 78 next year, therefore this ‘brain dead 80 old man’ schtick is a bit ridiculous. If Biden is too old, so is Trump..JFC.
I saw this at the bottom of the Obit….
“Should you wish to honor xxx’s memory, the family requests that donations be made to Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, In the “Honoree Name” field, please add fund number 315429 and the donation will be designated to Dr. Boire. A direct link for donations is below.”
https://www.mskcc.org/cancer-care/doctors/adrienne-boire
I am thinking glioblastoma maybe? Second surgery left him brain dead? The kept him for several days? ….. I got notification of business opportunity on July 11, but he died on July 19……
Phoenix says:
July 21, 2023 at 11:02 am
Chi,
To answer your question I could find out but it would be something they would terminate me for should I get caught. We are not allowed to look into a chart of a patient that we don’t have a work reason to.
You need to do some stealthy sleuthing. Neighbors, friends, colleagues, PoPo, or family members. Not sure if you said there was a funeral, but if it hasn’t happened you could go.
If it was a homicide, or a legal/lawsuit issue, then you can check those avenues.
Good luck finding out what you need. But usually when I see silent things in a young person it’s a drug issue or suicide- Something like 30 year old dies suddenly-then no more info. Most don’t ever want to talk about it until years later.
Now you know why we chose CHOP over MSK for the D.
Phoenix,
Think of all that interest you would have been able to write off on taxes. Capitalism works perfectly for all. There is a reason that a Popeye’s and liquor store are next to check cashing place.
Bystander: Agree, same should apply to Trump, two old white guys, one asleep, and one is a lunatic. Still hard to believe these are the only choices Americans have.
Blacks didn’t have any rights in this country until the 1960’s
Fast Eddie says:
July 21, 2023 at 10:04 am
3b,
I claim to be 1% African American, I’m getting reparations when I spend all my money on jet skis, $20 hamburgers, cruises and vacations to Sao Tome and Principe.
False
12:58 and yet, here we are.
Ex: Indeed, and that is why I will not vote for either one of them.
Saw a crazy amount of exotic and expensive electric cars on the roads in Monmouth County today, Rivian, Lucid Air, Audi e-tron, Porsche Taycan, Jaguar I-Pace, Mercedes EQS.
I read NJ has about 91,000 electric cars on the road as of last December. I wonder if there is a breakdown by model anywhere online. Seems like there are allot of exotic electric cars.
A friend of mine picked up a used 2019 model Tesla S fully loaded for $45k. Not a bad car does 0-60 in 4 seconds when you punch it.
AMC…lmao.
Phoenix, you are so out of your mind and wrong on this topic I have no idea why I’m even replying…
To feed your paranoia and martyrdom even more, you ever hear the phrase “banks only lend money to people who don’t need it” and know why that was so?
A middle of the road, solid credit quality commercial/industrial/personal loan portfolio provides a bank an ROA (net return on those loans) of 1% or so.
That means a bank needs to have 101 perfect loans for every one that goes to zero just to be minimally profitable. When was the last time you were right 101 of 102 times? What do you think the credit quality of those loans needs to be to hit that threshold? Pretty goddamn high, ie. not a single person with any credit questions whatsoever.
On the other end of the spectrum why do you think the credit card companies charge you 29.9% for cash advances? Because perhaps a quarter of those people are going to default?
Your credit back then by your own admission was suspect. Why would you think you belong in that first bucket of preferred borrowers? The question for marginal borrowers is not rate but accessibility versus renting. Absent people like Goryeb these borrowers would have never had a shot at ownership and building equity (ditto what Milken did for C&I lending with high rate junk bonds).
You should be celebrating this guy for opening up home ownership to a swath of the populace that otherwise was hard shut out by traditional lenders (“when your banks says no…”). Instead you’re whining like some little Millennial bitch because your participation trophy is not the same size as someone else’s.
low cost high payout short in some F ahead of earnings next week.
Which Octogenarian do we want to lead WWIII? 82 year old when re-elected soon to be 83 after election or the other one will be on appeal for his various state and federal criminal convictions.
I used to laugh at this stuff it was usually European countries like Italy with these kind of politicians, you would see stories about them in the national enquirer etc at the supermarket checkout stand.
Neither Biden or Trump will get my vote.
Anyone paying attention to Europe anyway? We have 100,000 US troops manning the borders now and even Germany is sending 4,000 to Lithuania.
Wartime president Biden and he croaks in office, then we have Kamala leading the charge..
Good times ahead for everyone eh? My kids don’t need to die in a trench in Europe. We need a better choice…
CHI,
You could be right. Tumor could have been in a difficult location. Those surgeries can last for a couple of hours to eight or more. You have to work around blood vessels and intertwined nerves depending on the area. You use neuromonitoring to constantly monitor for deficits.
You never know when it’s your time. Years ago I had a young lady with it. She had a melanoma on her ankle that metastasized to her brain. In her 30’s.
Just something to think about.
LW,
Cry me a river. His profit margin was so, so low that at the end of the day he could afford millions to put a wing on a hospital with some of his money.
Seems like he could have lowered the interest rate on everyone and still turned a profit, cause you have to have one hell of a profit to make your family wealthy and at the same time give that kind of charity. He wasn’t eeking out a profit, he was raking in big bucks.
And to answer this question, it’s easy. Because the credit card lobbyists and the politicians profit over this. They don’t set a number that runs the business, they set a number that makes them very, very wealthy. Then they even attack the merchants for a bit more at the POS terminal.
And if a bank defaults- seems like it happens on mortgages more, not credit cards, it’s because of shady lending practices of the banks themselves, like giving a janitor a mortgage of 800k- yeah I remember that story. How they piled the no risk and high risk mortgages together and sold them to pension plans. These banks are criminal run organizations. And if they fail, they threaten the Government that the economy will crash unless taxpayers bail them out, then they do it again and again. No bankers went to jail, no rating company officers spent a minute behind bars…
On the other end of the spectrum why do you think the credit card companies charge you 29.9% for cash advances? Because perhaps a quarter of those people are going to default?
Neither Biden or Trump will get my vote.
Mine either.
You should be celebrating this guy for opening up home ownership to a swath of the populace that otherwise was hard shut out by traditional lenders.
I put 20 percent down on my house, no PMI for me. I didn’t need or want his parasitic lending money.
But I did by my house in a drought. With a well. No water right after we moved in. Called dozens of well companies, they were all eager to drill me a new well for 10k. Kept calling to find someone cheaper.
Last guy I called said, ” I’m not sure it’s your well, it’ might be your foot valve.’
1500 bucks later the guy said I had one of the best wells he ever saw.
There is no shortage of greedy criminals in almost every industry. You find a winner and stick with them.
Where I live now I crossed off 3 mechanics already, they suck. Neighbors watched me do my brakes yesterday in the blazing sun. Hot day, but they work perfectly. I know how to work.
And “participation trophy,” those you can shove up your azz. If you do, come see me, I will help pull it back out for you but since you have such a huge one you might need a lower anterior resection with a diverting colostomy. If you do tell the doc you prefer Covidien staplers.
Phoenix, be well. I mean it.
I feel you’ve moved from the sarcastic, light-hearted but with a twist of seriousness ‘ok boomer’ to somewhere much darker.
I get it. Your life – the one you planned, executed, and owned – was turned upside by crazy. Me too. By lazy, dumb, and drunk.
You either get beyond it to a better place, or…you don’t.
Good luck. I truly hope your posts here are venting and not indicative of where you actually are. I used to reside on one of those streets. Not the neighborhood where you want to settle.
turned *upside down*
Fab Max,
Previous thread about Vanguard minimums. There is a filter screen that shows funds based on minimums. The high end funds have names like Admiral and Institutionals in it. the lower minimums have Investors in it. Difference in cost are usually ~.10%.
Leftwing,
Yes, Phoenix is heading into a very dark place. It’s very common in any intense human service field. I’m a full fledge atheist, but here is where a believe in religion, philosophy, space aliens, crab people, etc comes handy for some people.
Constant exposure to high stress, highly emotionally charge, high adrenaline triggering situations creates two big problems. 1- Addiction to the adrenaline focusing sharp mental high – which is about 100x more addictive than heroin, from there is where the term adrenaline junkies comes from. 2-The high emotional charge environment wears down and warps the person, that only a truly a top of the line extremely low empathy psychopath can handle and if you are into religious superstition is what the Churches teaches about Christ and absorbing human pain.
That is the reasons Social Workers, Psychologist, Psychiatrist have to have their own therapist to talk to. That is the reasons Burn unit nurses, just like FBI agents assigned certain units are rotated every 18 months.
How to manage those up and downs are a big untalked about issue, but is the reason cop bars, nurses stealing meds and others exist.
Great movie – but explains it with a russian accent.
https://youtu.be/lRaL30ur_78?t=60
Much of the US women’s soccer team remained silent during the playing of The Star-Spangled Banner at Friday’s World Cup opener in New Zealand, prompting critics to excoriate players over a perceived lack of patriotism.
Before beating Vietnam, 3-0, to open Group E play, six of 11 starting players opted against placing their hands over their hearts, instead keeping their arms at their sides or behind their backs.
Banks are such kind and timid creatures, and barely eek out a profit:
Three of America’s biggest banks raked in nearly $50 billion from higher interest payments last quarter – yet none have raised the yields on their savings accounts.
JPMorgan Chase, Wells Fargo and Bank of America this week posted profits much higher than expected as they cashed in on the Federal Reserve’s relentless interest rate hikes which have allowed them to increase the cost of taking out a loan – as well as the repayments on existing loans.
But analysis by DailyMail reveals they have failed to pass these high rates onto their savers – as experts urged them to look elsewhere for better returns on their cash.
JPMorgan Chase and Bank of America offer a pitiful 0.01 percent yield on their standard savings account – while Wells Fargo offers a slightly better 0.15 percent.
Dude it’s a business. You’re the one turning commerce into a crusade.
Again don’t like the rates – given or charged – do what every one else here does and move your business elsewhere.
America can’t even make a wrench anymore.
Craftsman’s $90M plan to bring manufacturing back to Texas flopped because of faulty robots
Tool company Stanley Black & Decker announced in 2019 that they would be opening a factory in Texas to bring American made Craftsman back
Injecting $90 million into the process, which included state of the art robotics, the company said it would bring them back to their American heritage
Three years later, the plant is now closed after the robotics used weren’t up to scratch and the low number of tools produced have made them collectors items
Do you guys think NJ’s voters care about congestion pricing in Manhattan that much? Murphy is pushing for full press coverage of him and a bunch of the highest NJ officials (gottheimer, menendez, pascrell, etc) denouncing congestion pricing in the sharpest terms they can muster.
Between WFH and switching to public transit, is there really a huge voting bloc of people in NJ that drive into Manhattan?
Or, is it that they hope that NJ Joe Sixpack is going to just positively perceive Murphy “fighting” against a “bad” thing – high tolls?
Either way, it is quite palpably hypocritcal – the Dems push climate alarmism, but . . . they don’t want people to switch to public transit? The Dems burn money on every convulted social program in the world, but . . . the MTA burning money is where they draw the line?
Murphy is a good governor and will get re-elected.
Ron DeSantis Accused of Wasting Retirees’ Money on Bud Light Lawsuit
BY NICK MORDOWANEC ON 7/21/23 AT 12:10 PM EDT
Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is receiving criticism for focusing a new investigation into Bud Light’s business and marketing practices.
I just got a $200 EzPass bill for last month, turns out ~$90 of that is for the five day period in which I drove to LGA to pick up guests and then drove down to Washington DC and back. $200 is one half of a (sensible) car payment. The list of few hundred dollar bills here and there that people here are asked to absorb as if it was nothing is quite long.
Also, the GWB is packed daily, on the weekend when the traffic spills over to the streets Fort Lee folks on certain streets can’t back out of their driveways. I can’t imagine what it’s going to be like if the GWB is the only congestion pricing free way of getting across Manhattan to New England.
BR,
I went to DC as well, but avoided the tolls for the most part. It cost me 14 extra minutes but it was well worth it.
Better scenery as well.
Phoenix,
Do what I do. Big money at Vanguard. Checking at on-line banks. Big banks only for cash reward cards that nobody beats.
You are wrong about Craftman’s high tech plant, along with Taiwan Semiconductor bitching about not finding skilled people for their plant in Arizona. Is not the country. Is the fact that both chose to put their factory in low IQ red state. If they were opening a brick or nail factory that would be good places with plenty of dumb people to work those simple machines. But for high tech, smart people don’t like to hang around morons. Put that factory in NJTP Exit 7, Rockland, LI, CT and they would be running efficiently.
Crushed,
Is not a Dem issue. 80% of GWB traffic in the morning is Bergen County residents. I use the GWB crossing before 6am -off peak discount, best time ever was after Pandemic, followed by 9/11 and the financial crisis. If people that use Holland and Lincoln to get to Queens, Brooklyn and beyond now start using the GWB to bypass the congestion charge is going to get real ugly at the GWB, Bayonne, Verrazano and Goethels. Money wise, those business that are in the pricing area have to pay more for talent to come in.
NYC has gone full stupid lately with bike and bus only lanes. At the same time you got all these scooters, e-bikes, and plain bike nuts running around with no enforcement what so ever . They want people to use MTA public transportation, but everyone knows the homeless, mentally ill, and criminality issues.
I expect the GWB to lock up, with many local towns throwing a hizzie fit. Forcing many northern NJ drivers to go up the GSP/287 to cross the Tappan Zee and then come down the Major Deegan, Henry Hudson, and all the other north/south arteries in Westchester and Bronx.
Ugly is not the word. No one is going to get out of their car for public transportation. They are just going to leave earlier and drive further.
People are going to pay $18 at the GWB, then $23 to cross 60th street, then pay $40 or $50/day for parking, figure it’s at least 15 miles each way (so, about 1 or 2 gallons of gas) so $7 in gas, the wear and tear on their car, the stress of gridlock traffic, and subjecting yourself to the chance of a car accident from the idiots on the road . . . Who the heck are th people that choose this over park-n-ride then ride the NJT train? I get it if they own a retail store in Manhattan, but to work an office job? Seems like a poor value.
I’ve worked at a lot of different places in the NY metro, and either drive or took public transit depending on where the job was:
(1) Manhattan = I took public transit
(2) Downtown JC = i took public transit
(3) Downtown Newark = I drove
(4) suburban office park = I drove
Yes, the GWB bypass to the boros is a stupid point of this plan. It should just be a congestion charge to any crossing into Manhattan if they are going to do it. The roads are too jammed, so the solution is to raise the price and that makes economic – I disagree Re differentiating between one part of Manhattan and another, though.
Crushed,
There a lot of people that work 10-12-14-16hrs shift in critical industries where YOU GOT TO BE THERE regardless of any other events. An example was that I used to cross after 4AM during the MTA Strike when NYPD would not allow cars below 125th St after 5am.
I can’t rely on any public transportation and their irregularities. Only when the time comes for self driving cars for hire all weather on demand 24-7-365 can I trust public transportation.
Manhattan is easy. Cross before 6am -likely 5:30am with the fiasco starts. Have your early bird special garages – right now below 60th st is more expensive than above 60th st. I expect that to reverse when it starts.. Have your back up diners, restaurant, movie theaters and even hotel in case something hits the fan. Plan to get out after 8pm. You do everything that you can during that time you are in Manhattan. So when you go home you go to do a few minor things and sleep.
Would you like to place a real or friendly wager that Phil Murphy will be re-elected at the end of his current term?
Very Stable Genius says:
July 22, 2023 at 12:52 pm
Murphy is a good governor and will get re-elected.
I was taught to stand “at ease” or at attention for the National Anthem, hand over heart for the Pledge of Allegiance.
I also spoke the Pledge, not sing the Anthem.
Would you like to place a real or friendly wager that Phil Murphy will be re-elected at the end of his current term?
Joyce,
I will take that bet, that he won’t be re-elected, he is a lame duck….can’t even run again, but in NJ you can run again after waiting 4 years. I have a feeling in this state he would win in a landslide, people like high taxes, corruption, inflation more corruption . How else could you explain why anyone would vote for Joe Biden, it is inevitable, corruption at its highest ever, inflation tipping out at 20% by the end of his term, 10,000 people a month dying from drug overdoses, cities at war. Keep voting Democrats in, they are taking care of themselves very well. Even the DOJ, FBI, IRS are all pro Democrat….its a good feeling knowing that China and all our enemies know more about our country than the average citizen, and all Bidens are above the law.
I will take that bet, that he won’t be re-elected, he is a lame duck….can’t even run again, but in NJ you can run again after waiting 4 years.
Yup, that’s why I asked.
LL Cool J
I’m going back to Cali, Cali, Cali
I’m going back to Cali, hmm, I don’t think so
California is the next Japan, with a declining population?
“More than a century of long-term population growth in California could be over, according to new projections that show the state will have about the same number of people in 2060 as it does now.
The forecast released this week from the California Department of Finance is sobering news for the country’s most populous state, which saw its first-ever population decline in 2020 amid an exodus driven by the pandemic and high housing costs. Lower birth rates and aging baby boomers will add to the demographic drag over the coming decades.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-22/california-looks-into-the-future-and-sees-fewer-californians
re: Phil Murphy
Term ends in 2026, he will run for president in 2028.
So neighbors house is now sold, inspection was this week and closing in 3 weeks. They were asking $975 and there was a bidding war, have not heard of the final price yet. They bought a newish condo by the beach as their four kids and grandkids all live here in Monmouth county and will spilt time here and Florida.
People that won the bid are basically moving across the tracks. We have two high schools in town North and South. South is considered better, but in reality the homes are larger and bigger lots etc. New homeowners are a similar age to me and my wife. Hopefully they are as nice as the people leaving. It was a fun 10 years with our old neighbors, we partied allot and I was at all their kids weddings and other family functions etc. Cannot say the say for the rest of our neighbors so who knows.
6:04 if traffic is any indication I say let em leave.
“Before beating Vietnam, 3-0, to open Group E play, six of 11 starting players opted against placing their hands over their hearts, instead keeping their arms at their sides or behind their backs.”
The best post I read on this today was “That’s how they taught us how to do it in the Marine Corps!”
Honestly is this is how they are going dog whistle their Misogynic BS for the WNT.
“Neither Biden or Trump will get my vote.”
Sometime you get served a Sh1t Sandwich and you are going to have to eat it. So your choice comes down to who is offering better condiments to go wit the sandwich.
Unless your name is DeSantis, in that case all bets are off!
(1) Manhattan = I [Parked at the ParkNRide] and took public transit
(2) Downtown JC = i [Parked at the ParkNRide] took public transit
(3) Downtown Newark = I drove
(4) suburban office park = I drove
Driving to NYC and parking for a job became unaffordable a long time ago
Fabs, per my earlier post, regarding the anthem, that is what we were taught in NYC public schools in 1960-1970.